Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In twenty ten, Eden Brown was stabbed and murdered. Today,
Speaker 1: I sat down with Anthony Jones, the person convicted of
Speaker 1: Eden's murder. This was a tough conversation. I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: done it unless Anthony was prepared to take responsibility. Eden
Speaker 1: was stabbed at the party by Anthony, who was a mate.
Speaker 1: It was a brutal, senseless crime that destroyed lives. We
Speaker 1: talked about the murder, the trauma of his childhood filled
Speaker 1: with violence, the brutality of prison, and how he has
Speaker 1: found salvation. Needless to say, this episode covers a lot
Speaker 1: of sensitive topics. Take care while listening to it. Anthony Jones,
Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well, you've got an interesting story and it's certainly something
Speaker 1: I want to sit down and talk to you about.
Speaker 1: It was a mutual friend of ours, Joe a Kon
Speaker 1: that got in contact with me and said, Hey, you
Speaker 1: going to check out this bloke aj He called you
Speaker 1: and I started talking to Joe about it and your story,
Speaker 1: and it's pretty heavy. It's a full on story.
Speaker 2: It's definitely heavy and a good maide of mind. Joe
Speaker 2: who does the confident Yeah, so we're starting to collaborate
Speaker 2: with what I'm doing as well. But good made of
Speaker 2: mine and he told me you're a good bloke.
Speaker 1: So well that a shout out to Joey came on,
Speaker 1: came on the podcast and I bumped into him. I
Speaker 1: bumped into him the boxing match last time I saw him.
Speaker 1: But the work that Joe's doing with Comfit is a
Speaker 1: good stuff, so well.
Speaker 2: He's taken what he's learned in prison. How to train
Speaker 2: and what that meant to guy's physical exercise. And he's
Speaker 2: come up with a business plan called a confit and
Speaker 2: now he goes into juvenile facilities all across the country
Speaker 2: and teaches him how to change their mindset, how to
Speaker 2: use their aggressive manner in a good way through exercise.
Speaker 2: And he's been developing mentors to go walk alongside these
Speaker 2: guys and amazing what he's doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that people who have walked the path
Speaker 1: because Joe got himself into a lot of trouble the
Speaker 1: younger years and did a lot of the time. But
Speaker 1: young blokes and girls are going to listen to people
Speaker 1: who have got that life experience. I think that's so
Speaker 1: important lived experience. When they know you've been there, done that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll listen. They're not going to listen to the authority
Speaker 1: that they have there. Yeah, and that's why Joe's made
Speaker 1: a massive impact him in his crew and Yeah, just
Speaker 1: super proud of what he's doing and gives us a
Speaker 1: pathway too, guys who want to change your life that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's awesome. So he said, you got an interesting story,
Speaker 1: and I looked at your background and yeah, coming from
Speaker 1: the area I did in the cops and a homicide detective,
Speaker 1: and I see that you've been convicted of murder and
Speaker 1: that you actually pleaded guilty to the murder, And to
Speaker 1: be honest, I was a little bit conflicted whether to
Speaker 1: get you on get you on the podcast. I've had
Speaker 1: people who have been convicted of the murder on the
Speaker 1: on the podcast before. But a lot of my thing
Speaker 1: during my policing career was looking out for the victims,
Speaker 1: all the families of victims of homicide. So I thought
Speaker 1: I'd ask you the question, and I wasn't sure what
Speaker 1: the what the response was, but I was quite pleased
Speaker 1: by the response. When it was Eden Brown, the person
Speaker 1: that you killed, I said, I want to reach out
Speaker 1: to their family and just get a sense of what
Speaker 1: their families are of you on me sitting down with
Speaker 1: you in a podcast. I spoke to Jessica, Eden's sister,
Speaker 1: and she was happy for me to talk to you.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that she said she wants
Speaker 1: me to ask you, and I said I would, But
Speaker 1: more importantly, I was happy that your response when I
Speaker 1: said I want to speak to the family, you said,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you said that, because you don't
Speaker 1: want to cause any more pain to the family. And
Speaker 1: that told me a little bit about the person that
Speaker 1: you are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that because I can't
Speaker 2: obviously talk to them still on parole. Yeah, and I'm
Speaker 2: so cautious about how I present myself and what I say. Well,
Speaker 2: they're always in the background for me in my mind,
Speaker 2: and everything I do now is actually you know, propelled
Speaker 2: for what's going on. So I first and foremost I
Speaker 2: always want to show them respect. You know, they've lost
Speaker 2: their son. Yeah, and for some reason, my life's been spared,
Speaker 2: so I don't take that for granted.
Speaker 1: Now. Well, that came across, came across when I spoke
Speaker 1: to you, and I know that you've turned your life around,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a lot about about that
Speaker 1: later on in the podcast. But dealing with the situation
Speaker 1: that sent you the jail, and not in the first place,
Speaker 1: because you've done time before that, but with the death
Speaker 1: of I'll call it for what it is. It was
Speaker 1: ruled to be a murder, a homicide of Eden Brown.
Speaker 1: Eden was your mate who was Yeah, let's let's start
Speaker 1: this podcast off talking a little bit about Eden who
Speaker 1: he was, and what your relationship with Eden was.
Speaker 2: He was quite a bit older than me. He's like
Speaker 2: a big brother. Top of role when as you started
Speaker 2: to get become closer his mates. I just met him
Speaker 2: through I met about the gym actually, yep, through just
Speaker 2: training at the gym, and he was you know, I
Speaker 2: met him through steroids. He was on steroids and I
Speaker 2: used to get steroids off him. And then we connected
Speaker 2: as started connect as mates and started to hang out
Speaker 2: pretty frequently, and.
Speaker 1: Probably for maybe two years.
Speaker 2: I reckon, we're mates, and then I just we had
Speaker 2: a few differences, a few things that I just honestly
Speaker 2: didn't really appreciate what he was doing. So I kind
Speaker 2: of distanced myself a little bit. We weren't as close
Speaker 2: as we once were, but we were still mates, but
Speaker 2: we weren't. We didn't we didn't hang out as much
Speaker 2: towards the end to where he passed.
Speaker 1: Away, right, And what.
Speaker 2: What year was that, two thousand and nine and nine ten?
Speaker 2: We probably probably met him two thousand and nine, I reckon,
Speaker 2: and then the murder happened in two thousand ten.
Speaker 1: Heavy stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't really talked about like this, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is heavy, mate. Well, yeah, we spoke before
Speaker 1: we sat down on to do the podcast, and I said,
Speaker 1: I last ask the hard questions, and I think it's
Speaker 1: important that we know where you've come from and where
Speaker 1: you are now and what's happened happened in between. So
Speaker 1: how many years did you do for the murder of Eden?
Speaker 2: I did fourteen years. Yeah, that was the non parole period.
Speaker 2: So I did fourteen years straight and my sentence was
Speaker 2: eighteen years eight months. Right, so I'm on parole.
Speaker 1: Now. When did you get out? I got out.
Speaker 2: Nineteen months ago, roughly June twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: You pleaded guilty to murder. Now, I was a homicide
Speaker 1: cop for a long time, and that's very rare. What
Speaker 1: bought that one?
Speaker 2: I was the first trial, I got a hung drey. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that trick kind of just messed me up because
Speaker 2: I got on the stand and you know, I just
Speaker 2: made up a story. Yeah, and I am a truthful guy,
Speaker 2: and it impacted me so much, and just seeing his family,
Speaker 2: seeing my family going through all this stuff, it kind
Speaker 2: of just took everything that I owned, my energy, really
Speaker 2: and by the second trial, about two weeks before the
Speaker 2: second troll, for some reason, I just I asked I
Speaker 2: put my name down to get a bible. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: some lady came a week later, yelled out my name
Speaker 2: and gave me his bible.
Speaker 1: And I just started reading it.
Speaker 2: But I only could read, probably at a year six level,
Speaker 2: so I had no idea what I was reading. But
Speaker 2: for some reason, I just read it every time I
Speaker 2: was in my cell. And then it's kind of made
Speaker 2: this vow to myself, and I said, I'm going to
Speaker 2: take this Bible with me on this second trol and
Speaker 2: just read it. And so the start of the second
Speaker 2: trol happened, and I took a little blue Bible with me,
Speaker 2: little gideons, and we'd get there very early, obviously before
Speaker 2: court starts. I'd read it lunch breaks, morning tea breaks,
Speaker 2: waiting for the truck. And I was already switched off
Speaker 2: from day one on the true or like mentally, I
Speaker 2: didn't want to be there, but I didn't know I
Speaker 2: had to be there, so there's no way out right,
Speaker 2: So I've got I've got to do this. And so
Speaker 2: no one ready knew what was going on because I
Speaker 2: can't talk to anybody except for the lawyer. I don't
Speaker 2: even say it too much, but I just keept reading
Speaker 2: his Bible and looking for something, and I came across
Speaker 2: the verse or took me to a page number because
Speaker 2: I saw the word freedom in the index, and it
Speaker 2: took me to a page number and a book, a
Speaker 2: passage in the Book of John which is, then you
Speaker 2: will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Speaker 2: I had no idea what that meant. I just saw truth,
Speaker 2: I saw freedom, and I just mulled that over for
Speaker 2: weeks and event and I had I knew there was
Speaker 2: probably a big chance I could probably win this trial
Speaker 2: after the after the first one.
Speaker 1: I think that's reasonable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the lawyers were pretty confident. And to be
Speaker 2: very honest, I had vengeance in my heart, you know,
Speaker 2: to go. And I thought if I get let out,
Speaker 2: like I'm coming back, and I didn't want to do that.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to hurt anyone else, but I was.
Speaker 2: I had a severe vengeance in my heart. But I thought,
Speaker 2: how what do I do? And I just took that
Speaker 2: passage in the Bible and it just it just something
Speaker 2: internally happened to me, and I came up with the
Speaker 2: decision to plead guilty and then I had so I
Speaker 2: sat on that for a couple of days and then
Speaker 2: one day after morning, so I just told my lawyer
Speaker 2: to come down after I have a chat and I
Speaker 2: told him I want to play guilty.
Speaker 1: And he just thought I was absolutely mad, and.
Speaker 2: He told the judge I was sick that day, and
Speaker 2: he sent me back to the jail. Think about it,
Speaker 2: have a think about it. But my decision was made.
Speaker 2: I came back. I just didn't care. I just like
Speaker 2: everything was impacting me, watching Eden's family, my family. I
Speaker 2: thought everyone gets closure, and I just felt this conviction
Speaker 2: that I've got to plead guilty, you know, but I've
Speaker 2: had I had to convince my solicitor. So he said
Speaker 2: to me, you need to admit to me what you
Speaker 2: did in this crime. And because my might I was
Speaker 2: so drunk and blacked out, I've got like snippets of memory.
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you what happened. So I told him
Speaker 2: what I do remember, and he just he's like, mane,
Speaker 2: this is he gys. You got to sack me now
Speaker 2: and we'll go to the third trill. And I said,
Speaker 2: I'm not sacking you like we've got to. I'm going
Speaker 2: on with.
Speaker 1: This because you would have told him stuff that he's
Speaker 1: now obliged to He definitely can't represent you because you
Speaker 1: would have made admissions to him or something.
Speaker 2: Enough information that I do remember that. We've got to
Speaker 2: get to another trill and have another legal team.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So he was doing his due diligence, of course, but
Speaker 2: I said, no, we're not going to do that. I'm
Speaker 2: pleading guilty man. And he's like this, mate, you're going
Speaker 2: to get so long, and I said, I don't care
Speaker 2: what I get. We sat there through the perspects and
Speaker 2: I said, you know my family, man, like my mom,
Speaker 2: my dad, the heroin, the heroin us, the violence, the prison,
Speaker 2: like I go, you know, my whole history. I said,
Speaker 2: nobody takes responsibility for anything. And I want to break
Speaker 2: the cycle today and I'm going to play guilty and
Speaker 2: show my family that this is how we change. And
Speaker 2: then he just he didn't know what to deal with that.
Speaker 2: He sat back and he was tears in his eyes,
Speaker 2: and he goes, only condition is I got to go
Speaker 2: see the DPP and see if they, you know, write
Speaker 2: here at least a decent fact sheet, and they did,
Speaker 2: and I had to get up and get it rained again.
Speaker 1: We will talk further further about that. Defense because I
Speaker 1: said to Jessicaen's sister, I'd ask you things, and that's
Speaker 1: the things that she wanted to ask that the family
Speaker 1: wanted wanted to find out. But let's just take a
Speaker 1: step back. Your childhood, tell us, tell us about your childhood.
Speaker 2: Your children was wasn't good. So mum and dad were
Speaker 2: both heroin addicts. So I was raised in addict's own.
Speaker 2: First memories of living in a Waterloo and the big
Speaker 2: house of the Commission Flats at Waterloo around four or
Speaker 2: five years old, and just have for some reason, I
Speaker 2: just remember my mom shooting up from about four years old.
Speaker 2: You know, she used to do it in front of me.
Speaker 2: I just thought I was too young. I wouldn't but
Speaker 2: I just remember everything, and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's your first saw the memory. So your mum, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Mum always with me.
Speaker 2: But I remember the torner car, I remember the spoon,
Speaker 2: I remember the color of it. I remember everything, and
Speaker 2: so I didn't know what that was. And then my
Speaker 2: dad had a domestic with my mom around five years old.
Speaker 2: I remember that in the kitchen and then he just
Speaker 2: like he flogged her and then he just walked out
Speaker 2: and then like I didn't really ever see I saw
Speaker 2: it maybe a handful of times again in my life.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how old were you? So five years old?
Speaker 2: So I was just me and mum living in this
Speaker 2: Any siblings I did, but to him had a brother
Speaker 2: and a sister, but I like, I think I knew
Speaker 2: them when I was really young.
Speaker 1: They're not in my family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just with mum and I was just
Speaker 2: me and her. But she'd moved us away from our
Speaker 2: family like my grandfather and annies and uncles and not
Speaker 2: because of her addiction and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it was just me and her.
Speaker 2: And then we moved into a spot at Surrey Hills
Speaker 2: just year in a one bedroom studio and like no toilet,
Speaker 2: no nothing, you know. And we met this my mom
Speaker 2: met this other guy. And that's when we met this man.
Speaker 2: Like my whole life just it just went. This ship man,
Speaker 2: it changed.
Speaker 1: Well it's not going too well, it's not going too
Speaker 1: good already, but okay, so what happened to me?
Speaker 2: So this is a new yeah, new partner. And I
Speaker 2: remember he was always at King's Cross and we'd always
Speaker 2: been in the cross. Mum's always going to pick up
Speaker 2: or whatever. And I remember this dude and he's always
Speaker 2: made me laugh. So I was kind of like, you know,
Speaker 2: he's all right. But he asked me to go to
Speaker 2: the footy, and then he is, I love footy. So
Speaker 2: he took us to the footy and I convinced Mum
Speaker 2: to let me let him take us. And I was
Speaker 2: going into hospital because I was I was in hospital
Speaker 2: for probably about four years on and off with some
Speaker 2: stomach issues as a young blake. So I had to
Speaker 2: go to hospital on the Monday. But he took us
Speaker 2: to the footy on the Sunday and went to the footy.
Speaker 2: He came home with us to this apartment or studio,
Speaker 2: and then he took me to hospital the next day.
Speaker 2: And I was in hospital for probably a couple of months,
Speaker 2: and so like I kind of fell in love with
Speaker 2: this guy because like my dad own dad's not coming.
Speaker 2: This guy stepped in and he's telling me all the
Speaker 2: all the things that young blake wants to hear. And
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, okay, I remember one day say
Speaker 2: to me, he goes that guy is not your father,
Speaker 2: he's your sperm doner. He's only father. And then when
Speaker 2: I got out of hospital went home with him and
Speaker 2: he was there.
Speaker 1: We were talking up a good game, isn't it.
Speaker 2: This guy was saying that, yeah, and he's telling me
Speaker 2: like like it made me like fall in love with
Speaker 2: this guy as a little boy, and I was I
Speaker 2: thought I kicked the goal, you know, I got this
Speaker 2: guy here's looking after me and mom. But then one
Speaker 2: night he just still turned like he was a heroin
Speaker 2: added to himself and an alcoholic and he's such a
Speaker 2: charismatic guy. But then one night, I don't know what
Speaker 2: it was, but he turned and then he just he
Speaker 2: locked the door, dead locked the door, and he just
Speaker 2: attacked mom like and he didn't he doesn't just attack
Speaker 2: mom for like a couple of minutes. Like this guy's
Speaker 2: all night, like twelve hours, beatings, like just the way
Speaker 2: the psychological just talking to her like I've never seen
Speaker 2: anything like it. So then that was that was a pattern.
Speaker 2: Now it just kept happening all the time.
Speaker 1: And how are we looking.
Speaker 2: I'm six years old, right, so this yeah, and I
Speaker 2: live in one room, so I see everything. I see
Speaker 2: the whole thing. I can't get away.
Speaker 1: There's no room for me.
Speaker 2: So I kind of begin to shut down as as
Speaker 2: a young kid, and I'm already struggling.
Speaker 1: To learn at school. I'm always in hospital.
Speaker 2: These two just take me all the way around Sydney
Speaker 2: and to get on heroin and methadone clinics, Like this
Speaker 2: is my life. You know.
Speaker 1: Then what at that age, what happened when they're on
Speaker 1: the not when they just look after yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're my memories. My dad and my mom's
Speaker 2: sitting there. I know when they've had a shot because
Speaker 2: they got the bathroom or whatever, or they do it,
Speaker 2: or my mum would do it in front of me
Speaker 2: and then my name. You know, pretty soon their heads
Speaker 2: in the in their laps, and then on the Sydney
Speaker 2: you know. And so I tried to run away, even
Speaker 2: from that place there was only six. I don't know
Speaker 2: how to go. I ran away for the day and
Speaker 2: came back. And then one particular night like where he
Speaker 2: got hectic, was Christmas Eve and then my stepfather said,
Speaker 2: make sure you come and get me.
Speaker 1: I'll mean it.
Speaker 2: I'll be in the pub and we'll take you to
Speaker 2: Santa Yeah. So mum, we went to every pub in
Speaker 2: Surrey Hills and we couldn't find him. She said, I
Speaker 2: don't worry, we just we'll just go. So we did
Speaker 2: the san anything came back. And then sometime later that
Speaker 2: night he came home, key in the lock. He deadlocks
Speaker 2: at the door. I was asleep, but I was awake,
Speaker 2: and but then I went to sleep and I woke
Speaker 2: up just like this murderous screams.
Speaker 1: Man like.
Speaker 2: Screaming was normal now, but this was like Mom's going
Speaker 2: to die. Mum is just screaming, man and had I
Speaker 2: had a cupboard that was my wall, and my bed
Speaker 2: was here, and I just looked out at the cupboard
Speaker 2: and then my mum was naked and she's pregnant this
Speaker 2: time with my sister. And he was just just blood everywhere,
Speaker 2: and I don't know what he was doing, but he was.
Speaker 2: I goed out to him, his dad, to stop, and
Speaker 2: he just came over, dragged me out of the bed,
Speaker 2: and for some reason, he sat me on his chair
Speaker 2: and he tied.
Speaker 1: Me to it.
Speaker 2: And I'm just frozen with fear. You know, my mom's
Speaker 2: like naked. His blood everywhere, and she's just like petrified.
Speaker 2: Man and he for some reason, he like he would
Speaker 2: had his knife, had a long knife and an orange handle.
Speaker 2: Ever forget it, and it was quite blunt though, so
Speaker 2: he'd stick like he'd cut up but not too deep,
Speaker 2: and he just torture. And then he said to me, son,
Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, And I said what, because
Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, mate, if you don't, if
Speaker 2: you'd laugh, I won't kill your sister and I won't
Speaker 2: kill your mother.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then he's like doing whatever he's doing with the
Speaker 2: knife to my mom, and he's making me laugh watching
Speaker 2: it and my mom before I laughed, my mom just
Speaker 2: screened him. He said, laugh, Son, laugh, So I just
Speaker 2: started laughing. Like then I blacked out. And then I
Speaker 2: all remember later was that my dad was unconscious, like
Speaker 2: from just I don't know what happened, and I had
Speaker 2: to lift him off my mother and then dress my
Speaker 2: mom and she was in a bad way, and I
Speaker 2: actually walked to the Surreal's police station is already and
Speaker 2: then my father was in charge with attempted murder and
Speaker 2: and my mum ended up putting him in jail. But
Speaker 2: then we take take me to visit him every week.
Speaker 1: Okay, just let me unpack what you described there, because
Speaker 1: that's yeah, there's domestic violence and all that, but that's
Speaker 1: is extreme. That that is extreme. So you're tied to
Speaker 1: a chair, is six seven years old. Your mum's been
Speaker 1: bash She's screaming, yeah, you got this psychopath.
Speaker 2: So when I woke up, he was actually raping her,
Speaker 2: so like this is it just gets it's horrible.
Speaker 1: And telling you to laugh or otherwise he's going to kill.
Speaker 2: He's going to cut my sister out. His words were,
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill your mother. What I just why
Speaker 2: I did this to me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's bad and then there's really bad, and
Speaker 1: that's that's just pure evil. I can't even comprehend what
Speaker 1: the fact that would have on you at that.
Speaker 2: We'll definitely get into that. But he's he's still to
Speaker 2: this day the most evil man I've ever come across.
Speaker 2: And you know, been sitting in jail for a long time,
Speaker 2: no one comes close.
Speaker 1: So you've gone the police station rapport that he's been
Speaker 1: in charge with the temp murder. Yeah, you're thinking that's
Speaker 1: hopefully last year you see of him. But when he's
Speaker 1: doing time for that crime on probably others your ms.
Speaker 2: We're going to visit him, right And that that one
Speaker 2: confused me too, because then he charms us again. He's
Speaker 2: charming mom, he's charming me, and we never talk about
Speaker 2: this again, me and mum we never raised it again.
Speaker 2: And then Mum's like, and I had to give evidence
Speaker 2: against my dad. And I remember my father saying to me.
Speaker 2: He said to me, I know the cops are going
Speaker 2: to try tell you to tell on me. And he
Speaker 2: said to me, you just tell them what you needed
Speaker 2: to do, son, And I go, Dad, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that because he already been training me. You
Speaker 2: never talk, You're not a dog like this how he talked,
Speaker 2: He's ingrained it into me, and then he's telling me
Speaker 2: to do it. And I was like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that, Dad, And then not until later in life,
Speaker 2: I kind of knew what he was doing there. But
Speaker 2: but then mum, you know, he manipulates mum. And Mum
Speaker 2: gets on the stand and says he didn't do these things,
Speaker 2: and he gets a no bill I think it was.
Speaker 2: And he gets out and he gets released back to
Speaker 2: our home.
Speaker 1: After after all, after all that going through the court, we.
Speaker 2: Came back to our house and then it goes on again.
Speaker 1: So that would have taken a year or so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, roughly, I'm not exactly sure, but.
Speaker 1: We're looking at eight nine, yeah, years of age, and.
Speaker 2: This comes back out and he's come back out and
Speaker 2: he's promised the world to us, as they do. He's
Speaker 2: a con man. We got emergency housing after that though,
Speaker 2: like while he was in custody, so we went from
Speaker 2: the little apartment to a like an apartment of two
Speaker 2: three bedrooms.
Speaker 1: And then my sister was born.
Speaker 2: But my sister had so many complications because what happened
Speaker 2: in the womb, She almost died a few times on
Speaker 2: a hospital. And he got out. He was there for
Speaker 2: the birth, so he got out for the birth, which
Speaker 2: and then he actually they moved us and he moved
Speaker 2: into the new.
Speaker 1: House with us. So I got to love the system.
Speaker 1: And then this happened all over again. So repeated the
Speaker 1: domestic violence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the next one was he went to
Speaker 2: Jokula again and it happened again.
Speaker 1: What I'm just trying to get a sceense, And it
Speaker 1: was probably hard because you can't even remember what you
Speaker 1: were thinking or how you're looking at life at that age.
Speaker 1: But I can't comprehend what you've just described and your
Speaker 1: view on life, Like how did you function at school?
Speaker 1: Did you have mates? Did you have well?
Speaker 2: I was always the old one out at school because
Speaker 2: we never had money. I never had food much. I
Speaker 2: wass never had the uniform, so I always stood out.
Speaker 2: I was always you know, looking look at different kid.
Speaker 2: And then by that stage, I knew my life was different.
Speaker 2: So I was kind of shut down. I didn't say
Speaker 2: too much. The only time I really talked to him,
Speaker 2: I played footy. Footy was the only thing that I
Speaker 2: hung on to. And so I just started getting ultra
Speaker 2: aggressive as a young kid. Yeah, and fighting, and I
Speaker 2: just started stealing, fighting, just I shut down. I got
Speaker 2: diagnosed with dyslexia, and as soon as I heard that
Speaker 2: as a young blake, I just thought I'm stupid. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so and I was getting taken the cchs all over
Speaker 2: the joint from my mom, going to jails, coming out like,
Speaker 2: I just completely shut down.
Speaker 1: Man, you build up aggression, I would imagine, sure, and
Speaker 1: so many different fronts of the home life. You're not
Speaker 1: got the social skills to find some mates, and so
Speaker 1: you start stealing, getting you in the fights, being aggressive.
Speaker 1: I would imagine you like a ticking time bomb.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I got expelled a new one for stealing.
Speaker 2: I started stealing it six years old and then like,
Speaker 2: and I'd fight kids as soon as I used to
Speaker 2: get bullied early on. And then when I met this
Speaker 2: guy must have fa he said, you're not going to
Speaker 2: get bullied him. If they hurt you, hurt them and
Speaker 2: he goes. But if you've become the bully, like old
Speaker 2: bully you But then I'm like, I'm coming am your
Speaker 2: bulliness all the time. So it was just all these mixed.
Speaker 1: Messages advice from a psyca.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so then I became the bully. Yeah, like
Speaker 2: I just took If I didn't have something.
Speaker 1: I'd take it. But that's how I was. I was
Speaker 1: doing this from six years old. You mentioned football, like
Speaker 1: the team, sports and the environment didn't have any role models,
Speaker 1: any male role models that Like.
Speaker 2: My grandfather was always a really my mom's father, but
Speaker 2: we never got the same much. But when he was
Speaker 2: a very like you know, I loved him. I dored him,
Speaker 2: and he was like my saving grace as a real
Speaker 2: little bloke. And but also my oldest brother came into
Speaker 2: my life, two older brothers from the logical now from.
Speaker 1: The step father.
Speaker 2: He had two sons, yeah, and they were like in
Speaker 2: their mid twenties and one just kept going back in
Speaker 2: down to jail and the other one did too. But
Speaker 2: oldest one. He just kind of became like my father. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he just never left me. And so like if I
Speaker 2: didn't have that Blake, I'll probably be dead, you know.
Speaker 2: So he just he knew what his father was, and
Speaker 2: I think he just thought, I can't leave this kid.
Speaker 1: Right, So he took that big brother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did, man, and he's still there today.
Speaker 1: When did you start getting in trouble with the cops.
Speaker 2: I think I first got arrested about eight years old. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So we moved to another place. He was a commission
Speaker 2: like community in our tirement, and then I just you know,
Speaker 2: there's like hundreds of house the kids just you know,
Speaker 2: lurking mums and dads on heroin or whatever. And so
Speaker 2: I started hanging with older kids and then got in
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble and started getting arrested eight years old.
Speaker 1: Did you do any time in youth detention? No.
Speaker 2: I always threatened to go, and they always gave me chances,
Speaker 2: and I'd snap out of it a little bit. And
Speaker 2: when footy season was on, I noticed when to look back,
Speaker 2: footy season wasn't on, I'm getting a lot of trouble
Speaker 2: when footy season's I know'd something to look forward to
Speaker 2: channel and you know, just and I could be aggressive
Speaker 2: on the field. And then I started to get good,
Speaker 2: so I started to like, Okay, this is my way,
Speaker 2: this is my way out.
Speaker 1: What about from an education point of view, you diagnosed
Speaker 1: has been dyslexic. Did you just shut down and just
Speaker 1: behave to cover that up? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I just completely shut down. I couldn't read it right properly.
Speaker 2: I just completely shut soon as I heard the word dyslexic,
Speaker 2: I just convinced myself from an idiot, I'm incapable of learning.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It h and when the violence at home, like I
Speaker 2: just gave to school and just be like mute and
Speaker 2: I just act out, you know, as soon as I
Speaker 2: if I had reading class, act out.
Speaker 1: I'm not reading. I can't kick Yeah, get kicked out
Speaker 1: of class. Awesome. That's that was my life for school. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a sad pattern, isn't a lot of kids do it?
Speaker 1: Like you look back and you go it's going on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at the time, you think they're just being in the class.
Speaker 2: Yeah, been a goose making life hard for everyone. But
Speaker 2: they're hiding something. And I just never said anything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was trained not to.
Speaker 1: You spoke of your grandfather. As you're becoming a teenager,
Speaker 1: did you have any dreams or ambitions or any any
Speaker 1: idea what you wanted to do? Or you've grown up
Speaker 1: with a lot of people who have been in and
Speaker 1: out of jail. Did you think that was just your
Speaker 1: natural progression? Yeah, there was two dreams.
Speaker 2: Really, there was one dream since I was a little boy,
Speaker 2: was just to play an oral.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my dream.
Speaker 2: I thought, that's it, that's the way, that's how I
Speaker 2: get out of this. And if that failed, well, my
Speaker 2: ride passage is gone to jail. So one footy ended,
Speaker 2: that was it?
Speaker 1: How did your foot the end? Did it get to
Speaker 1: the point where you weren't going to cover at the
Speaker 1: level or Yeah?
Speaker 2: I started playing representative footy at fourteen, so mainly started
Speaker 2: looking at me, started playing for him, went to development
Speaker 2: squads Harold Matthew's SG bore and thought, okay, so you're
Speaker 2: on the way.
Speaker 1: On the way.
Speaker 2: But then I started getting a knee injury and then
Speaker 2: lost a lot of confidence and then obviously not talking
Speaker 2: about what was going on inside of me either, and
Speaker 2: I was already getting the rest a lot. I was
Speaker 2: on curfews, I was going to court all the time,
Speaker 2: and then I had my first job of alcohol and
Speaker 2: then that was it. That was a spiral. Over the
Speaker 2: next couple of years, I just lost the desire of
Speaker 2: the one thing that all I ever wanted to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of stories of
Speaker 1: people wasted talent where the drugs and the alcohol have
Speaker 1: kicked in it those in those.
Speaker 2: Years because I thought I've been never had a drug
Speaker 2: with an alcohol ever. And then when I had my
Speaker 2: first drink and started to get started to do it regularly,
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was numb, but I actually
Speaker 2: never knew how much pain and anger I was in
Speaker 2: until I had the alcohol.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I don't feel like that, Like
Speaker 1: I feel happy, right, So that that was that was
Speaker 1: the impact that they had on you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't because I liked it.
Speaker 1: I hated it. I hate it. I still hate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But at that at the beginning, it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I can block everything out. But then this it took
Speaker 2: it took complete control over me.
Speaker 1: How were you when you started drinking?
Speaker 2: About fifteen and then didn't take over my life to
Speaker 2: about eight eight months later, and I just eventually just
Speaker 2: walked away from from everything right, and my stepfather actually
Speaker 2: O d you did in two thousand and three on heroin,
Speaker 2: and then that was it. His effect dying on me
Speaker 2: was like, it was horrific, it was weird.
Speaker 1: It taught me through that because he wasn't the greatest
Speaker 1: role model in your life, had a profound effect on you.
Speaker 2: I just never accepted what he did to me at
Speaker 2: that point, you know, And for some reason I idolized him.
Speaker 2: I just saw the good in him, still looking for
Speaker 2: his love. Yeah, And then when he died three months later,
Speaker 2: I went to juvie and then my life of jail began.
Speaker 1: What sort of crimes was the alcohol induced.
Speaker 2: And how co induced everything? Yeah, just violent crimes. There's
Speaker 2: always violence, robberies, robbery's, robbery companies, and then just you know, violence.
Speaker 1: Did And I know the type of person you are now,
Speaker 1: And so I'm asking not how you look back now,
Speaker 1: but how you looked at yourself at the time when
Speaker 1: you If you bash someone and rob them, I would
Speaker 1: imagine there, Yeah, the normal reaction is feel a little
Speaker 1: bit of guilt. Some poor dudes just walking along the
Speaker 1: road and you've flogged him and taken their wallet or whatever.
Speaker 1: Did you have any conscience back then very rarely, so
Speaker 1: I didn't even didn't give it a second thought, not much.
Speaker 2: I was probably out my worst when I was about
Speaker 2: fifteen or seventy eighth.
Speaker 1: I was just like a tunnel vision. Well, yeah, I've
Speaker 1: giving you a bit of a lifeline here. I think
Speaker 1: we're all a little bit that way at that age.
Speaker 1: Like you do something and you don't consider it was funny, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't consider the consequences, all the impact that having on.
Speaker 2: And I hated myself. I had no self worth. So
Speaker 2: it's there was guilt definitely, like when I got caught. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just always own up.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was me. It was like relief.
Speaker 2: I think it was weird, but in the moment, yeah,
Speaker 2: I just didn't.
Speaker 1: I was just act out. Your offenses would have accumulated.
Speaker 1: I imagine that. Then you went to JUVI. How long
Speaker 1: did you get in there? Or I did five months?
Speaker 2: I turned eighteen whereabout in common right, and then went
Speaker 2: to Baxter and then turned eighteen and then got out
Speaker 2: probably I think it was about four days after my
Speaker 2: eighteenth and then went to jail eight days later.
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about that. The experience in the
Speaker 1: juvenile detention so you got in there sixteen. You're not
Speaker 1: being judged in there like there's the people who are
Speaker 1: in would have a lot of them would have had
Speaker 1: the same mindset as you did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of June for me was great, Like I enjoyed
Speaker 2: it great as in I was safe, I got fed,
Speaker 2: like add a routine. I didn't have to worry about
Speaker 2: where I'm eating, Who's going to hurt me.
Speaker 1: It was an easier life. It was comfort.
Speaker 2: It was something that I never had. I never had
Speaker 2: the structure and routine. So for me, I really craved that.
Speaker 1: It's sad, isn't it that the environment can give you
Speaker 1: the security you're looking.
Speaker 2: For, Like I share it to you. When I walked out, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't want to leave, like I really didn't, man,
Speaker 2: not until later in life and I was reflecting. I thought,
Speaker 2: no kid should have wanted to be in there, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to be there, you know.
Speaker 1: So, Okay, so they've released you when you've you've turned
Speaker 1: eighteen and you've hit the streets, We've I haven't learned
Speaker 1: any lessons other than probably how to do crime a
Speaker 1: little bit better, and you've still got the anger issues.
Speaker 2: I was fine, and I was always fighting in Juli.
Speaker 2: But then when I got out, I just went on
Speaker 2: a bender. I got drunk for eight days, wake up
Speaker 2: in a police station.
Speaker 1: Whether you're done in those eight days.
Speaker 2: So they said, I don't even have a memory of that.
Speaker 2: So it started back then, aggravated Robert, three of us
Speaker 2: and who it was a shop and barely I didn't
Speaker 2: even remember it. I just remembered waking up in the
Speaker 2: police station.
Speaker 1: So you drink the point of blackout, yeah, back.
Speaker 2: Then, definitely to the point of blackout, and then just
Speaker 2: wake up and you find out what you've done.
Speaker 1: How what was the consequences of that?
Speaker 2: I got five years and three years. I got a
Speaker 2: three year sentence in and two year parole. So I
Speaker 2: got out when I was twenty one.
Speaker 1: Where did you do your time?
Speaker 2: So I did my did the Young Offenders program a
Speaker 2: John Moroney and went through the Oberon process and did
Speaker 2: the works release and went home after three years. So
Speaker 2: on remand silk Water paramatter park Lee.
Speaker 1: How was that going in the eighteen because it's a
Speaker 1: different level, different environment, going from juvene the older team,
Speaker 1: it's a different adult prison. How did you cape with
Speaker 1: that and how did you feel?
Speaker 2: It was like a real weird feeling because it's like
Speaker 2: I never left juvieyeh. And I was with two other people,
Speaker 2: so carle offenders. I wasn't alone, which kind of helped.
Speaker 2: You're not as fearful. Yeah, you got to jail as
Speaker 2: a kid. I was an eighteen year old little seventy
Speaker 2: k whip it, so you know, I'm going in there,
Speaker 2: and was always anxiety and fear. And then but then
Speaker 2: as soon as I got in there, I recognized majority
Speaker 2: of these guys, so the guys my age, and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh okay, so I just it's just the
Speaker 2: next level on the secondary school. Yeah, just keep moving forward.
Speaker 2: And then then you go to the young offender's place
Speaker 2: under twenty five is and you're just all the same
Speaker 2: age doing it.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that could have could have changed you?
Speaker 1: Like at that point in time when you're in Nah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't listening to anyone.
Speaker 2: I just thought being sober for three years and getting
Speaker 2: my head right training every day. I eventually got a
Speaker 2: year ten certificate in that time, so it's a little
Speaker 2: bit of got an education and you know that the
Speaker 2: ignorance of me thought, oh I'm sweet. And then as
Speaker 2: soon as you step out I was able to get
Speaker 2: a job and I had a girlfriend. Life is pretty good.
Speaker 2: But then I never addressed any issue. So then they
Speaker 2: started the resurface again.
Speaker 1: Tell us like, that's where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: mistakes are made. Like you've done your stint in prison.
Speaker 1: Ideal situation is that, Okay, you're going to come out
Speaker 1: and turn your life around. I get the sense when
Speaker 1: you released, you did your three years. Yep. I get
Speaker 1: the sense when you released, you didn't have a game plan.
Speaker 1: You just yeah, okay, open the gates, let me out,
Speaker 1: and let's see what happens. Everybody obvious what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: That's why we've got the high recidivism.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, I'll start my new life and prepare
Speaker 2: everything to day get out. And I learned that this time,
Speaker 2: Like all the mistakes that I've made, I've reflected later on.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just thought I'll start life when I
Speaker 2: get out. I thought I've got a job.
Speaker 1: Sweet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know that's like the foolish.
Speaker 1: What what was what was the job?
Speaker 2: You're going, I'll just work in a roofing factory. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so open and shut roofing. Where I made of mind
Speaker 2: was working and he's the boss.
Speaker 1: Let me in.
Speaker 2: I started working there. I hated jobs. The first week
Speaker 2: I got out of jail and in a routine, loving life,
Speaker 2: I thought really changed my life here.
Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to make it go?
Speaker 1: Did you?
Speaker 2: I really did, because I hated you. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to get back and I had a clear mind. I
Speaker 2: had a goal, like just to work and try to
Speaker 2: But as soon as I started drinking again slowly it
Speaker 2: took about nine months, and I just started to go
Speaker 2: back to old habits, you know, start hanging around the
Speaker 2: same people again.
Speaker 1: Did you at any point in time look at you
Speaker 1: your drinking and think, okay, this is where it all
Speaker 1: goes bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hated drinking. I actually hated drinking.
Speaker 1: Did you consider getting help like AA or.
Speaker 2: I never knew how to ask to help me, and
Speaker 2: I always it was always ingrained in me. You asked
Speaker 2: to help you weak? So I was always fighting that
Speaker 2: I wanted help, but I had no idea how to
Speaker 2: ask for it, and nobody like I just It took many,
Speaker 2: many years for me to finally say I need I
Speaker 2: need help, you know, but there's I would have. I
Speaker 2: wasn't listening to anybody. And I was just so hard
Speaker 2: headed at ship my shoulder. There's no way I want
Speaker 2: to express anybody that I need help.
Speaker 1: Did you have anyone on the outside, anyone gave you
Speaker 1: a clip over the year and said, mate, if you drink,
Speaker 1: you're another good person. And you drink, your life is
Speaker 1: going to be destroyed. Was there any any support in
Speaker 1: that way?
Speaker 2: My older brother tried to, but he's drinking himself, he's
Speaker 2: living his life.
Speaker 1: So and I was just and no one.
Speaker 2: Really was kind of kind of game enough to say
Speaker 2: to me, you know, and like I would have just just.
Speaker 1: You know, aunt least on them. I'm not an expert
Speaker 1: on the addiction alcohol, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever,
Speaker 1: but I've spoken to enough people sitting opposite you that
Speaker 1: have gone down the path, and a lot of them say,
Speaker 1: you've got to fix the cause, to fix the drinking
Speaker 1: or the addiction, and taking on board what you said
Speaker 1: earlier on will you find him relief from your fucked
Speaker 1: up life to a degree, Oh okay, let's just get
Speaker 1: it on the drink and all the pain goes away.
Speaker 2: All the pain goes away. But that's why I like
Speaker 2: to going to jail too. Yeah, because I didn't have
Speaker 2: to drink and it was taken away from me. I'm
Speaker 2: not a really drug taker, so in jail, I was like,
Speaker 2: I can just be normal. So it was such a
Speaker 2: warped mentality. I didn't feel normal less I was back
Speaker 2: in jail, ye, like because I didn't want to hurt
Speaker 2: anybody anymore, even from it, Like around that age, I
Speaker 2: was like, I just got to jail, and I that's
Speaker 2: three years I was out after I was twenty one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like there's times there like I want to go jael
Speaker 2: Like I even I even got myself arrested and begged
Speaker 2: the police to refuse me to go jail because I
Speaker 2: was I knew that I was something's wrong with me.
Speaker 1: Just talk talk us through that, Like that must be
Speaker 1: hard hard to come to terms with the fact that hey,
Speaker 1: I need to be locked up something.
Speaker 2: And I went to the police station, had got it
Speaker 2: was on the pissing manly with my missus, got blind drunk,
Speaker 2: had fights and security guards and whatnot. I snapped out
Speaker 2: if it got out of the pub and I said, man,
Speaker 2: I'm going and she's like, where are you going? So
Speaker 2: I'm going at jail and then like she was trying
Speaker 2: to pull me and push me, and I slapped her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I said, and I just and I ran from the
Speaker 2: Staying hotel to the Manly police station and then my
Speaker 2: brother was with me, and I took my watch off
Speaker 2: from a wallet gave it to him a week going.
Speaker 2: And so I'm going to jail and we're in the
Speaker 2: police station and the cops like comes out, He's like,
Speaker 2: what are you doing? And I grabbed the cop by
Speaker 2: the collar. I said, if you don't arrest me, you
Speaker 2: want to knock you out. And my brother's like just
Speaker 2: flipping out, saying he's on ice. And this cop was
Speaker 2: just I don't think he's ever come across anything lot
Speaker 2: that in his life. And then one of the coppers
Speaker 2: came out. He kind of knew me from the gym.
Speaker 2: I said come in here, and I said, I'll come
Speaker 2: into the dock. As long as you refuse me, I'll
Speaker 2: tell you a crime that I've committed just now. I
Speaker 2: slapped my missus and then he just thought I was
Speaker 2: crazy and I was blind drunk, and he said just
Speaker 2: go to sleep, and I said no, no, no, you have
Speaker 2: to charge me. And he promised me that he would
Speaker 2: charged me, and refused me, and I woke up and
Speaker 2: then the female cops like, wake up, he's been bailed.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then that was in February Australia Day. And in
Speaker 2: June I went to Jarf Murder right, So I knew
Speaker 2: something was wrong with me and that was my cry
Speaker 2: for help, but I didn't know how to ask for help.
Speaker 2: And I got released from the from the cells, went
Speaker 2: straight home, my missus slapping me.
Speaker 1: What did you have for? Were you getting any professional help?
Speaker 2: I never spoke to anybody, and it was your mum
Speaker 2: still in the mum. I was living at mum's house
Speaker 2: of the time. Yeah, and she's still in her mate Yeah,
Speaker 2: tops of relationship there, so she's in her own Hell,
Speaker 2: I'm in mind.
Speaker 1: The whole family were. So this is just in the
Speaker 1: sequence of events. We know you've done your time in
Speaker 1: juvenile You've you've got that, you're locked up eight days
Speaker 1: after spent three years in prison, and then you're out.
Speaker 1: The incident you just talked about then was two years
Speaker 1: out of prison, three years out for three years. What
Speaker 1: other type of stuff were you're doing in the in
Speaker 1: the lead up to this.
Speaker 2: Oh, by that time, I was fully living a criminal life.
Speaker 1: You weren't working, so just that time stealing.
Speaker 2: Or I was just doing I was just making money,
Speaker 2: and I wasn't doing good things.
Speaker 1: I wasn't hanging good people.
Speaker 2: I was locked in to that world and just taking
Speaker 2: time by me.
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose the inevitable, inevitable happens. And if I
Speaker 1: looked at you, if I was looking at from a
Speaker 1: CoP's point of view, and I'm looking at the history,
Speaker 1: and Okay, what's saying the amount of time before he
Speaker 1: does something bad that's going to put him away for
Speaker 1: a long time, And oh for sure, that's actually actually
Speaker 1: what happened. So with the lead up to the murder
Speaker 1: of Eden Brown, what was your mindset? I think you've
Speaker 1: explained it to a degree, but I'm just trying to man.
Speaker 1: I didn't care if I lived a diet. You know.
Speaker 1: I was in a dark place.
Speaker 2: I was like I think I held on till twenty four,
Speaker 2: Like through all the trauma and all the shit that
Speaker 2: I went through, I never spoke. And by the age
Speaker 2: of twenty four, I think I just it all came out.
Speaker 2: I was going to die, yeah, or go to jail
Speaker 2: for a very long time, and I think I just burst.
Speaker 2: Everything was I broke.
Speaker 1: Is it? It was an anger building up inside you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was, man, there's hate and rage, Like I
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever met anyone as angry as me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and full of rage. So would that play out
Speaker 1: if someone just bumped you the wrong way or disrespected
Speaker 1: you or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I wasn't like too much. I'm a loyal guy,
Speaker 2: I love my mates.
Speaker 1: I'm normal.
Speaker 2: But then if it clicks up, that's it. We're on.
Speaker 1: And I just gave all got friends like that, glazed
Speaker 1: eyes come over and.
Speaker 2: Yeah see later. You know, anything could happen.
Speaker 1: What happened the night Eden was killed just a normal night. Man.
Speaker 2: I just went down to a mate's mind, as he
Speaker 2: called me, just for a couple of beers down, you know,
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes in my house. Yeah, And that was in
Speaker 2: the afternoon sometime, And I rocked up with a case
Speaker 2: and bottle with a made of mine and we just
Speaker 2: started drinking. It was just normal, you know, there wasn't anything.
Speaker 2: Then people just kept coming and going and coming. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it just started like a gathering and then eventually, you know,
Speaker 2: there was nearly up to thirty to forty people there.
Speaker 1: I reckon at one.
Speaker 2: Time and by the time. I remember, like it's probably
Speaker 2: like ten o'clock and I was waiting for my missus
Speaker 2: to come about twelve o'clock. She was coming after work,
Speaker 2: so I thought I'd just stayed. I was just drink
Speaker 2: till then and then I'll head off. But then it
Speaker 2: just all went pair shape, man, Like I was so blind, Okay.
Speaker 2: I just remember sitting in the garage. Everyone was drinking.
Speaker 2: A lot of guys are on coconut, but I didn't
Speaker 2: take any cacineying. And I remember like Eden wasn't there
Speaker 2: until maybe like later in the night, tenish eleven ish,
Speaker 2: and I remember getting asked that to bring it eat
Speaker 2: and I said, no, no, don't bring eating him in,
Speaker 2: Like this is not he's scene, man, And I just
Speaker 2: knew like something pop off, And I said, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Bring it me here.
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to call him, and like nobody
Speaker 2: knows this stuff but and I won't say names or anything,
Speaker 2: but and they kept saying to me, calling, you know,
Speaker 2: and eventually I just got so drunk I said call him.
Speaker 2: And I remember Eating saying to me, are you going
Speaker 2: to be there? I said, yeah, I'm here, I'm here
Speaker 2: to about midnight. Then I'm going. I said, He's like,
Speaker 2: I only come if you come. I don't trust no one.
Speaker 2: I don't trust these guys. I said, yeah, and I've
Speaker 2: said whatever I said to him, and he came. He
Speaker 2: came with I think, three girls, and everything's no worries, drinking.
Speaker 1: Fun, this normal stuff.
Speaker 2: And then I remember going outside and I was blind, man,
Speaker 2: and went to the toilet which is chucked the leak
Speaker 2: in the backyard. And then as I picked up my
Speaker 2: beard turned around. You know, I just see a fight,
Speaker 2: which is normal. I didn't think any of it, and
Speaker 2: then I realized it was eating and he's getting getting attacked,
Speaker 2: and and that's where I black out, man. And then
Speaker 2: after that, I just hear screams. After I black out,
Speaker 2: I've come to somehow. I remember someone grabbing me or something,
Speaker 2: not a hut him sent sure, man, I just remember
Speaker 2: snapping out of whatever I was in, and you know,
Speaker 2: I heard these screams and I saw Eden run away
Speaker 2: and he ran through a fence, a color bond fence, like.
Speaker 1: You know, he's fear for his life.
Speaker 2: And I remember that, and then we just left and
Speaker 2: then went to two other houses after that, and I
Speaker 2: just thought oh yeah, okay, punch on think getting of
Speaker 2: it again. And I've got no blood on me or
Speaker 2: anything like that. And then I just continued to drink,
Speaker 2: just kept drinking.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 2: It was like maybe six o'clock in the morning or something,
Speaker 2: and I was at this house and they said a
Speaker 2: couple of guys got arrested.
Speaker 1: At the scene.
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, why just for the fight,
Speaker 2: and they're like yeah, and I was like okay. And
Speaker 2: then one of the ladies that was at the house
Speaker 2: was ringing the hospitals and I was like okay. And
Speaker 2: then finally around the hospital and they said, you know,
Speaker 2: Eaton Brown's passed away.
Speaker 1: I was like, all right.
Speaker 2: Couldn't put my head like, I couldn't understand how because
Speaker 2: I had no idea that he'd been stabbed at that time.
Speaker 2: So I left started sober and I was like, what's
Speaker 2: I couldn't get any answers, and I just had this
Speaker 2: feeling like, all right, they're coming for me. I didn't
Speaker 2: really know why they're coming for me.
Speaker 1: I just.
Speaker 2: Had this feeling and I knew the guys I was
Speaker 2: they're going to say it to me anyway. And I
Speaker 2: watched the news that night and they said even the
Speaker 2: men died at a house party being stabbed.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then I found out he'd been stabbed and I
Speaker 2: was like okay, and I was just waiting and I
Speaker 2: was like okay. But the police didn't raide out any
Speaker 2: my like my mum's house, my brother's house, or anyone
Speaker 2: till the Monday. I think it's happened on the sturdy
Speaker 2: or something. And then on Monday I got the call
Speaker 2: from one of my brothers say, mate, they've raided out
Speaker 2: these houses for you for murder. And I said okay,
Speaker 2: so pretty much. Then I just got drunk until they
Speaker 2: arrested me in King's Cross for three weeks.
Speaker 1: How long after three weeks? Okay. So my understanding of
Speaker 1: it only going through information that was contained in the
Speaker 1: media about the time that there was the fight at
Speaker 1: the party and that he was he was stabbed twice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you have pleaded guilty to it. No one else
Speaker 1: has been, no one else has been charged in relation
Speaker 1: to it. So and I take on board what you
Speaker 1: said during that second trial to your solicitor obviously was
Speaker 1: incriminating against you. That's why I had to take it off.
Speaker 1: I've said, I've seen fights I've seen drunken fights, I've
Speaker 1: seen stuff. Stuff has happened. I haven't haven't seen it
Speaker 1: to that extent in my personal life, but I've seen
Speaker 1: that in my policing life where someone ends up dead.
Speaker 1: Did you at that point in time leading up to
Speaker 1: it where you tried to hand yourself into the cops
Speaker 1: you were concerned you were going to do something stupid?
Speaker 1: Stupid is a nice way of putting it, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you were going to cause some damage. The knife, the
Speaker 1: knife that was used for the murder. Did you bring
Speaker 1: the knife.
Speaker 2: To the I never carried my knife a knife in
Speaker 2: my life. Yeah, where I was just that knife was
Speaker 2: from the from the kitchen I was out of the block.
Speaker 1: It's a steak knife.
Speaker 2: And I don't even know I remember that knife being
Speaker 2: in the garage because I was opening coronas with it.
Speaker 2: Because it's no ballo. That's why the reason the knife
Speaker 2: was in the garage, right, That's what I do know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: when I was a knife to that that took his life.
Speaker 1: Did you did you have any injuries from the from.
Speaker 2: The fight that you didn't have a drop of blood? Right,
Speaker 2: didn't have an injury?
Speaker 1: When you found out he died? And you were thinking
Speaker 1: that the police are going to come after you. And
Speaker 1: clearly from what you told your your solicitor and embarrassed,
Speaker 1: you had some recollection of it. Do you recall being
Speaker 1: in the fight at all or what the anger? What?
Speaker 2: I definitely I know and towards the fight. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: obviously I'm blacked out at that stage. And you know,
Speaker 2: and Eden said that I stabbed him, yeah, before he.
Speaker 1: Died, right, So in a dying deposition.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dying declaration he said, Anthony Jones stabbed me.
Speaker 1: Right. I wanted to ask how you feel, but just
Speaker 1: piecing it all together, and yeah, if I was sitting
Speaker 1: and this is uncomfortable, We're in a podcast. If I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in the Yeah, an interview room is a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: I'm asking you a few more questions. Will how the
Speaker 1: knife get into your hand? That that type of stuff?
Speaker 1: When the cops arrested you, did you participate in an interview?
Speaker 2: Has refused to speak, right, So, which is you're right?
Speaker 2: And I've never spoke to it now, right, this is
Speaker 2: the first time anybody's going to hear anything.
Speaker 1: This is the first time. Man, when you first when
Speaker 1: did you first find find out that ed had passed
Speaker 1: away when the girl fanned the hospital, when the girl
Speaker 1: found the hospital here, and I would ask you if
Speaker 1: we're seeing in an interview room, like why do you
Speaker 1: think you were the person responsible for it? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I don't know what the police really said to me.
Speaker 2: They asked me like questions. I remember, but and know
Speaker 2: what they were How to sit now, I'm not talking
Speaker 2: just charge me taking back to the doc. That's as
Speaker 2: far as I went. I knew that I was going
Speaker 2: to say anything I would.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that if given the fact that they
Speaker 1: did charge you with it, You've got the dying declaration
Speaker 1: that Edan has said that you stabbed him, and there
Speaker 1: would have been witnesses at the party. I would suggest
Speaker 1: some of the witnesses with the set I've seen nothing
Speaker 1: when they might have, but there must have been some
Speaker 1: witnesses that that gave some evidence about what took place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone there was a few crowd witnesses against me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but no one saw the crime. No one conclusively said
Speaker 2: what they saw could say it was me.
Speaker 1: In the circumstances like that where mid Trill and then
Speaker 1: the solicitors talking to the DPP and what we would
Speaker 1: call it settled settle on some agreed facts. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: the facts would be okay your side, you've been the
Speaker 1: defense and the prosecutor agreed that these are the facts
Speaker 1: of what's occurred with this incident. Were you comfortable with
Speaker 1: the agreed facts? Yeah? I didn't really.
Speaker 2: I don't think I read it, but I didn't really
Speaker 2: process it.
Speaker 1: But you had this solicit Yeah, he read.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did. He went above and beyond me. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 2: he's a decent man, and yeah, like yeah, he really,
Speaker 2: he really believed in me and helped me as much as.
Speaker 1: He could going over what we've talked about. You're taking
Speaker 1: responsibility for it, for sure. Yeah, okay, it's me, all right.
Speaker 2: There was never a premeditation, man, Yeah, I never had
Speaker 2: any There's never a thought in my mind to kill,
Speaker 2: to kill anybody or even that night.
Speaker 1: That's a that's a frustration I got as a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: How many times and people go murderers that they've planned it,
Speaker 1: they're doing this, and the even and this might oh
Speaker 1: I won't say annoy, but people might disagree. Where people
Speaker 1: say mandatory sentences in murder or if you murder someone
Speaker 1: you should get life. There's a lot of different types
Speaker 1: of murders that people don't quite understand, and knives. I
Speaker 1: often see that. I've seen people get stabbed twenty times
Speaker 1: and they don't die. Yeah, and then I see people
Speaker 1: that get stabbed once a couple of teenagers and someone
Speaker 1: pulls out a pen knife and stabs and they die.
Speaker 1: That's the risk inherited with if you do do you
Speaker 1: use a weapon. But yeah, it must be difficult for
Speaker 1: you sitting here talking about it. I'm sitting here from
Speaker 1: a homicide to take this point of view going I
Speaker 1: want to go here, I want to go there, and
Speaker 1: all that. But I appreciate you you've been open and
Speaker 1: talking about it. We'll take a break now when we
Speaker 1: get back. I did tell you that Eden's sister representing
Speaker 1: the family, had a few things that she wanted me
Speaker 1: to ask you. And I think we also need to
Speaker 1: clarify why we're sitting down and talking is that one
Speaker 1: of the things that's impressed me is how you have
Speaker 1: turned your life around and the direction your life is
Speaker 1: on now. And we're going to talk about that at
Speaker 1: length because it's very rare that someone comes in to
Speaker 1: a situation like this with a person like me and
Speaker 1: sits down and talks about what we're talking about. So
Speaker 1: let's have a break. It's a heavy, heavy conversation. There
Speaker 1: is some there is some light at the end of
Speaker 1: the tunnel. I'll say that, otherwise people mightn't come back.
Speaker 1: It sounds good.