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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In twenty ten, Eden Brown was stabbed and murdered. Today,

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Speaker 1: I sat down with Anthony Jones, the person convicted of

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Speaker 1: Eden's murder. This was a tough conversation. I wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: done it unless Anthony was prepared to take responsibility. Eden

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Speaker 1: was stabbed at the party by Anthony, who was a mate.

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Speaker 1: It was a brutal, senseless crime that destroyed lives. We

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Speaker 1: talked about the murder, the trauma of his childhood filled

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Speaker 1: with violence, the brutality of prison, and how he has

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Speaker 1: found salvation. Needless to say, this episode covers a lot

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Speaker 1: of sensitive topics. Take care while listening to it. Anthony Jones,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got an interesting story and it's certainly something

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Speaker 1: I want to sit down and talk to you about.

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Speaker 1: It was a mutual friend of ours, Joe a Kon

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Speaker 1: that got in contact with me and said, Hey, you

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Speaker 1: going to check out this bloke aj He called you

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Speaker 1: and I started talking to Joe about it and your story,

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Speaker 1: and it's pretty heavy. It's a full on story.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely heavy and a good maide of mind. Joe

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Speaker 2: who does the confident Yeah, so we're starting to collaborate

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Speaker 2: with what I'm doing as well. But good made of

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Speaker 2: mine and he told me you're a good bloke.

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Speaker 1: So well that a shout out to Joey came on,

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Speaker 1: came on the podcast and I bumped into him. I

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Speaker 1: bumped into him the boxing match last time I saw him.

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Speaker 1: But the work that Joe's doing with Comfit is a

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Speaker 1: good stuff, so well.

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Speaker 2: He's taken what he's learned in prison. How to train

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Speaker 2: and what that meant to guy's physical exercise. And he's

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Speaker 2: come up with a business plan called a confit and

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Speaker 2: now he goes into juvenile facilities all across the country

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Speaker 2: and teaches him how to change their mindset, how to

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Speaker 2: use their aggressive manner in a good way through exercise.

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Speaker 2: And he's been developing mentors to go walk alongside these

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Speaker 2: guys and amazing what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that people who have walked the path

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Speaker 1: because Joe got himself into a lot of trouble the

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Speaker 1: younger years and did a lot of the time. But

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Speaker 1: young blokes and girls are going to listen to people

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Speaker 1: who have got that life experience. I think that's so

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Speaker 1: important lived experience. When they know you've been there, done that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they'll listen. They're not going to listen to the authority

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Speaker 1: that they have there. Yeah, and that's why Joe's made

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Speaker 1: a massive impact him in his crew and Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: super proud of what he's doing and gives us a

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Speaker 1: pathway too, guys who want to change your life that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. So he said, you got an interesting story,

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Speaker 1: and I looked at your background and yeah, coming from

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Speaker 1: the area I did in the cops and a homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: and I see that you've been convicted of murder and

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Speaker 1: that you actually pleaded guilty to the murder, And to

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Speaker 1: be honest, I was a little bit conflicted whether to

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Speaker 1: get you on get you on the podcast. I've had

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Speaker 1: people who have been convicted of the murder on the

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before. But a lot of my thing

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Speaker 1: during my policing career was looking out for the victims,

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Speaker 1: all the families of victims of homicide. So I thought

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Speaker 1: I'd ask you the question, and I wasn't sure what

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Speaker 1: the what the response was, but I was quite pleased

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Speaker 1: by the response. When it was Eden Brown, the person

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Speaker 1: that you killed, I said, I want to reach out

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Speaker 1: to their family and just get a sense of what

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Speaker 1: their families are of you on me sitting down with

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Speaker 1: you in a podcast. I spoke to Jessica, Eden's sister,

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Speaker 1: and she was happy for me to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that she said she wants

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Speaker 1: me to ask you, and I said I would, But

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Speaker 1: more importantly, I was happy that your response when I

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Speaker 1: said I want to speak to the family, you said,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you said that, because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to cause any more pain to the family. And

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Speaker 1: that told me a little bit about the person that

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Speaker 1: you are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that because I can't

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Speaker 2: obviously talk to them still on parole. Yeah, and I'm

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Speaker 2: so cautious about how I present myself and what I say. Well,

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Speaker 2: they're always in the background for me in my mind,

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Speaker 2: and everything I do now is actually you know, propelled

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Speaker 2: for what's going on. So I first and foremost I

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Speaker 2: always want to show them respect. You know, they've lost

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Speaker 2: their son. Yeah, and for some reason, my life's been spared,

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Speaker 2: so I don't take that for granted.

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Speaker 1: Now. Well, that came across, came across when I spoke

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Speaker 1: to you, and I know that you've turned your life around,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a lot about about that

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Speaker 1: later on in the podcast. But dealing with the situation

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Speaker 1: that sent you the jail, and not in the first place,

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Speaker 1: because you've done time before that, but with the death

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Speaker 1: of I'll call it for what it is. It was

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Speaker 1: ruled to be a murder, a homicide of Eden Brown.

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Speaker 1: Eden was your mate who was Yeah, let's let's start

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Speaker 1: this podcast off talking a little bit about Eden who

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Speaker 1: he was, and what your relationship with Eden was.

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Speaker 2: He was quite a bit older than me. He's like

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Speaker 2: a big brother. Top of role when as you started

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Speaker 2: to get become closer his mates. I just met him

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Speaker 2: through I met about the gym actually, yep, through just

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Speaker 2: training at the gym, and he was you know, I

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Speaker 2: met him through steroids. He was on steroids and I

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Speaker 2: used to get steroids off him. And then we connected

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Speaker 2: as started connect as mates and started to hang out

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Speaker 2: pretty frequently, and.

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Speaker 1: Probably for maybe two years.

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Speaker 2: I reckon, we're mates, and then I just we had

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Speaker 2: a few differences, a few things that I just honestly

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Speaker 2: didn't really appreciate what he was doing. So I kind

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Speaker 2: of distanced myself a little bit. We weren't as close

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Speaker 2: as we once were, but we were still mates, but

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Speaker 2: we weren't. We didn't we didn't hang out as much

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Speaker 2: towards the end to where he passed.

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Speaker 1: Away, right, And what.

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Speaker 2: What year was that, two thousand and nine and nine ten?

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Speaker 2: We probably probably met him two thousand and nine, I reckon,

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Speaker 2: and then the murder happened in two thousand ten.

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Speaker 1: Heavy stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't really talked about like this, so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is heavy, mate. Well, yeah, we spoke before

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Speaker 1: we sat down on to do the podcast, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I last ask the hard questions, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: important that we know where you've come from and where

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Speaker 1: you are now and what's happened happened in between. So

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Speaker 1: how many years did you do for the murder of Eden?

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Speaker 2: I did fourteen years. Yeah, that was the non parole period.

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Speaker 2: So I did fourteen years straight and my sentence was

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Speaker 2: eighteen years eight months. Right, so I'm on parole.

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Speaker 1: Now. When did you get out? I got out.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen months ago, roughly June twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: You pleaded guilty to murder. Now, I was a homicide

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Speaker 1: cop for a long time, and that's very rare. What

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Speaker 1: bought that one?

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Speaker 2: I was the first trial, I got a hung drey. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that trick kind of just messed me up because

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Speaker 2: I got on the stand and you know, I just

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Speaker 2: made up a story. Yeah, and I am a truthful guy,

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Speaker 2: and it impacted me so much, and just seeing his family,

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Speaker 2: seeing my family going through all this stuff, it kind

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Speaker 2: of just took everything that I owned, my energy, really

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Speaker 2: and by the second trial, about two weeks before the

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Speaker 2: second troll, for some reason, I just I asked I

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Speaker 2: put my name down to get a bible. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: some lady came a week later, yelled out my name

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Speaker 2: and gave me his bible.

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Speaker 1: And I just started reading it.

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Speaker 2: But I only could read, probably at a year six level,

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Speaker 2: so I had no idea what I was reading. But

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Speaker 2: for some reason, I just read it every time I

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Speaker 2: was in my cell. And then it's kind of made

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Speaker 2: this vow to myself, and I said, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: take this Bible with me on this second trol and

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Speaker 2: just read it. And so the start of the second

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Speaker 2: trol happened, and I took a little blue Bible with me,

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Speaker 2: little gideons, and we'd get there very early, obviously before

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Speaker 2: court starts. I'd read it lunch breaks, morning tea breaks,

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Speaker 2: waiting for the truck. And I was already switched off

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Speaker 2: from day one on the true or like mentally, I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be there, but I didn't know I

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Speaker 2: had to be there, so there's no way out right,

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Speaker 2: So I've got I've got to do this. And so

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Speaker 2: no one ready knew what was going on because I

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Speaker 2: can't talk to anybody except for the lawyer. I don't

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Speaker 2: even say it too much, but I just keept reading

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Speaker 2: his Bible and looking for something, and I came across

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Speaker 2: the verse or took me to a page number because

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Speaker 2: I saw the word freedom in the index, and it

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Speaker 2: took me to a page number and a book, a

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Speaker 2: passage in the Book of John which is, then you

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Speaker 2: will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea what that meant. I just saw truth,

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Speaker 2: I saw freedom, and I just mulled that over for

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Speaker 2: weeks and event and I had I knew there was

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Speaker 2: probably a big chance I could probably win this trial

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Speaker 2: after the after the first one.

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Speaker 1: I think that's reasonable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the lawyers were pretty confident. And to be

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Speaker 2: very honest, I had vengeance in my heart, you know,

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Speaker 2: to go. And I thought if I get let out,

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Speaker 2: like I'm coming back, and I didn't want to do that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to hurt anyone else, but I was.

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Speaker 2: I had a severe vengeance in my heart. But I thought,

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Speaker 2: how what do I do? And I just took that

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Speaker 2: passage in the Bible and it just it just something

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Speaker 2: internally happened to me, and I came up with the

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Speaker 2: decision to plead guilty and then I had so I

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Speaker 2: sat on that for a couple of days and then

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Speaker 2: one day after morning, so I just told my lawyer

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Speaker 2: to come down after I have a chat and I

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Speaker 2: told him I want to play guilty.

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Speaker 1: And he just thought I was absolutely mad, and.

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Speaker 2: He told the judge I was sick that day, and

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Speaker 2: he sent me back to the jail. Think about it,

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Speaker 2: have a think about it. But my decision was made.

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Speaker 2: I came back. I just didn't care. I just like

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Speaker 2: everything was impacting me, watching Eden's family, my family. I

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Speaker 2: thought everyone gets closure, and I just felt this conviction

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Speaker 2: that I've got to plead guilty, you know, but I've

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Speaker 2: had I had to convince my solicitor. So he said

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Speaker 2: to me, you need to admit to me what you

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Speaker 2: did in this crime. And because my might I was

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Speaker 2: so drunk and blacked out, I've got like snippets of memory.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you what happened. So I told him

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Speaker 2: what I do remember, and he just he's like, mane,

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Speaker 2: this is he gys. You got to sack me now

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Speaker 2: and we'll go to the third trill. And I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sacking you like we've got to. I'm going

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Speaker 2: on with.

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Speaker 1: This because you would have told him stuff that he's

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Speaker 1: now obliged to He definitely can't represent you because you

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Speaker 1: would have made admissions to him or something.

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Speaker 2: Enough information that I do remember that. We've got to

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Speaker 2: get to another trill and have another legal team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So he was doing his due diligence, of course, but

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Speaker 2: I said, no, we're not going to do that. I'm

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Speaker 2: pleading guilty man. And he's like this, mate, you're going

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Speaker 2: to get so long, and I said, I don't care

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Speaker 2: what I get. We sat there through the perspects and

231
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Speaker 2: I said, you know my family, man, like my mom,

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Speaker 2: my dad, the heroin, the heroin us, the violence, the prison,

233
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Speaker 2: like I go, you know, my whole history. I said,

234
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Speaker 2: nobody takes responsibility for anything. And I want to break

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Speaker 2: the cycle today and I'm going to play guilty and

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Speaker 2: show my family that this is how we change. And

237
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Speaker 2: then he just he didn't know what to deal with that.

238
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Speaker 2: He sat back and he was tears in his eyes,

239
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Speaker 2: and he goes, only condition is I got to go

240
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Speaker 2: see the DPP and see if they, you know, write

241
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Speaker 2: here at least a decent fact sheet, and they did,

242
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Speaker 2: and I had to get up and get it rained again.

243
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Speaker 1: We will talk further further about that. Defense because I

244
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Speaker 1: said to Jessicaen's sister, I'd ask you things, and that's

245
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Speaker 1: the things that she wanted to ask that the family

246
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Speaker 1: wanted wanted to find out. But let's just take a

247
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Speaker 1: step back. Your childhood, tell us, tell us about your childhood.

248
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Speaker 2: Your children was wasn't good. So mum and dad were

249
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Speaker 2: both heroin addicts. So I was raised in addict's own.

250
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Speaker 2: First memories of living in a Waterloo and the big

251
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Speaker 2: house of the Commission Flats at Waterloo around four or

252
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Speaker 2: five years old, and just have for some reason, I

253
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Speaker 2: just remember my mom shooting up from about four years old.

254
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Speaker 2: You know, she used to do it in front of me.

255
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Speaker 2: I just thought I was too young. I wouldn't but

256
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Speaker 2: I just remember everything, and that's it.

257
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Speaker 1: That's your first saw the memory. So your mum, Yeah,

258
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Speaker 1: Mum always with me.

259
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Speaker 2: But I remember the torner car, I remember the spoon,

260
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Speaker 2: I remember the color of it. I remember everything, and

261
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 2: so I didn't know what that was. And then my

262
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 2: dad had a domestic with my mom around five years old.

263
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Speaker 2: I remember that in the kitchen and then he just

264
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Speaker 2: like he flogged her and then he just walked out

265
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Speaker 2: and then like I didn't really ever see I saw

266
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Speaker 2: it maybe a handful of times again in my life.

267
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Speaker 1: Okay, so how old were you? So five years old?

268
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Speaker 2: So I was just me and mum living in this

269
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Speaker 2: Any siblings I did, but to him had a brother

270
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Speaker 2: and a sister, but I like, I think I knew

271
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Speaker 2: them when I was really young.

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Speaker 1: They're not in my family.

273
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just with mum and I was just

274
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 2: me and her. But she'd moved us away from our

275
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,599
Speaker 2: family like my grandfather and annies and uncles and not

276
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Speaker 2: because of her addiction and stuff.

277
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Speaker 1: So it was just me and her.

278
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Speaker 2: And then we moved into a spot at Surrey Hills

279
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Speaker 2: just year in a one bedroom studio and like no toilet,

280
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 2: no nothing, you know. And we met this my mom

281
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Speaker 2: met this other guy. And that's when we met this man.

282
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Speaker 2: Like my whole life just it just went. This ship man,

283
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 2: it changed.

284
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Speaker 1: Well it's not going too well, it's not going too

285
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 1: good already, but okay, so what happened to me?

286
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 2: So this is a new yeah, new partner. And I

287
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 2: remember he was always at King's Cross and we'd always

288
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 2: been in the cross. Mum's always going to pick up

289
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: or whatever. And I remember this dude and he's always

290
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 2: made me laugh. So I was kind of like, you know,

291
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 2: he's all right. But he asked me to go to

292
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,440
Speaker 2: the footy, and then he is, I love footy. So

293
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 2: he took us to the footy and I convinced Mum

294
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 2: to let me let him take us. And I was

295
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 2: going into hospital because I was I was in hospital

296
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 2: for probably about four years on and off with some

297
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 2: stomach issues as a young blake. So I had to

298
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 2: go to hospital on the Monday. But he took us

299
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 2: to the footy on the Sunday and went to the footy.

300
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 2: He came home with us to this apartment or studio,

301
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: and then he took me to hospital the next day.

302
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 2: And I was in hospital for probably a couple of months,

303
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 2: and so like I kind of fell in love with

304
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 2: this guy because like my dad own dad's not coming.

305
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: This guy stepped in and he's telling me all the

306
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 2: all the things that young blake wants to hear. And

307
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, okay, I remember one day say

308
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 2: to me, he goes that guy is not your father,

309
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 2: he's your sperm doner. He's only father. And then when

310
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 2: I got out of hospital went home with him and

311
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 2: he was there.

312
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 1: We were talking up a good game, isn't it.

313
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 2: This guy was saying that, yeah, and he's telling me

314
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 2: like like it made me like fall in love with

315
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 2: this guy as a little boy, and I was I

316
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 2: thought I kicked the goal, you know, I got this

317
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 2: guy here's looking after me and mom. But then one

318
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 2: night he just still turned like he was a heroin

319
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 2: added to himself and an alcoholic and he's such a

320
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 2: charismatic guy. But then one night, I don't know what

321
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 2: it was, but he turned and then he just he

322
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,320
Speaker 2: locked the door, dead locked the door, and he just

323
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 2: attacked mom like and he didn't he doesn't just attack

324
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 2: mom for like a couple of minutes. Like this guy's

325
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 2: all night, like twelve hours, beatings, like just the way

326
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 2: the psychological just talking to her like I've never seen

327
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 2: anything like it. So then that was that was a pattern.

328
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 2: Now it just kept happening all the time.

329
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 1: And how are we looking.

330
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 2: I'm six years old, right, so this yeah, and I

331
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 2: live in one room, so I see everything. I see

332
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 2: the whole thing. I can't get away.

333
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:53,280
Speaker 1: There's no room for me.

334
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,360
Speaker 2: So I kind of begin to shut down as as

335
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 2: a young kid, and I'm already struggling.

336
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 1: To learn at school. I'm always in hospital.

337
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 2: These two just take me all the way around Sydney

338
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: and to get on heroin and methadone clinics, Like this

339
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 2: is my life. You know.

340
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,359
Speaker 1: Then what at that age, what happened when they're on

341
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,640
Speaker 1: the not when they just look after yourself.

342
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're my memories. My dad and my mom's

343
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 2: sitting there. I know when they've had a shot because

344
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 2: they got the bathroom or whatever, or they do it,

345
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 2: or my mum would do it in front of me

346
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: and then my name. You know, pretty soon their heads

347
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,400
Speaker 2: in the in their laps, and then on the Sydney

348
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,680
Speaker 2: you know. And so I tried to run away, even

349
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 2: from that place there was only six. I don't know

350
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 2: how to go. I ran away for the day and

351
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,879
Speaker 2: came back. And then one particular night like where he

352
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 2: got hectic, was Christmas Eve and then my stepfather said,

353
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 2: make sure you come and get me.

354
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 1: I'll mean it.

355
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 2: I'll be in the pub and we'll take you to

356
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 2: Santa Yeah. So mum, we went to every pub in

357
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 2: Surrey Hills and we couldn't find him. She said, I

358
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 2: don't worry, we just we'll just go. So we did

359
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 2: the san anything came back. And then sometime later that

360
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,960
Speaker 2: night he came home, key in the lock. He deadlocks

361
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 2: at the door. I was asleep, but I was awake,

362
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 2: and but then I went to sleep and I woke

363
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 2: up just like this murderous screams.

364
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 1: Man like.

365
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 2: Screaming was normal now, but this was like Mom's going

366
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 2: to die. Mum is just screaming, man and had I

367
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: had a cupboard that was my wall, and my bed

368
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,719
Speaker 2: was here, and I just looked out at the cupboard

369
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 2: and then my mum was naked and she's pregnant this

370
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,919
Speaker 2: time with my sister. And he was just just blood everywhere,

371
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 2: and I don't know what he was doing, but he was.

372
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,960
Speaker 2: I goed out to him, his dad, to stop, and

373
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 2: he just came over, dragged me out of the bed,

374
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 2: and for some reason, he sat me on his chair

375
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 2: and he tied.

376
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 1: Me to it.

377
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: And I'm just frozen with fear. You know, my mom's

378
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:58,199
Speaker 2: like naked. His blood everywhere, and she's just like petrified.

379
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: Man and he for some reason, he like he would

380
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 2: had his knife, had a long knife and an orange handle.

381
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 2: Ever forget it, and it was quite blunt though, so

382
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,160
Speaker 2: he'd stick like he'd cut up but not too deep,

383
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 2: and he just torture. And then he said to me, son,

384
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, And I said what, because

385
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,440
Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, mate, if you don't, if

386
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 2: you'd laugh, I won't kill your sister and I won't

387
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: kill your mother.

388
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

389
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: So then he's like doing whatever he's doing with the

390
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 2: knife to my mom, and he's making me laugh watching

391
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: it and my mom before I laughed, my mom just

392
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: screened him. He said, laugh, Son, laugh, So I just

393
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 2: started laughing. Like then I blacked out. And then I

394
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: all remember later was that my dad was unconscious, like

395
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,439
Speaker 2: from just I don't know what happened, and I had

396
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 2: to lift him off my mother and then dress my

397
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 2: mom and she was in a bad way, and I

398
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,719
Speaker 2: actually walked to the Surreal's police station is already and

399
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,159
Speaker 2: then my father was in charge with attempted murder and

400
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 2: and my mum ended up putting him in jail. But

401
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 2: then we take take me to visit him every week.

402
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: Okay, just let me unpack what you described there, because

403
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: that's yeah, there's domestic violence and all that, but that's

404
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: is extreme. That that is extreme. So you're tied to

405
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: a chair, is six seven years old. Your mum's been

406
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: bash She's screaming, yeah, you got this psychopath.

407
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 2: So when I woke up, he was actually raping her,

408
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 2: so like this is it just gets it's horrible.

409
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 1: And telling you to laugh or otherwise he's going to kill.

410
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 2: He's going to cut my sister out. His words were,

411
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill your mother. What I just why

412
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 2: I did this to me?

413
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's bad and then there's really bad, and

414
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 1: that's that's just pure evil. I can't even comprehend what

415
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: the fact that would have on you at that.

416
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: We'll definitely get into that. But he's he's still to

417
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 2: this day the most evil man I've ever come across.

418
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 2: And you know, been sitting in jail for a long time,

419
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 2: no one comes close.

420
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: So you've gone the police station rapport that he's been

421
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: in charge with the temp murder. Yeah, you're thinking that's

422
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 1: hopefully last year you see of him. But when he's

423
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: doing time for that crime on probably others your ms.

424
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 2: We're going to visit him, right And that that one

425
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: confused me too, because then he charms us again. He's

426
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: charming mom, he's charming me, and we never talk about

427
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 2: this again, me and mum we never raised it again.

428
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 2: And then Mum's like, and I had to give evidence

429
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: against my dad. And I remember my father saying to me.

430
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: He said to me, I know the cops are going

431
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 2: to try tell you to tell on me. And he

432
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: said to me, you just tell them what you needed

433
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: to do, son, And I go, Dad, I don't want

434
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: to do that because he already been training me. You

435
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: never talk, You're not a dog like this how he talked,

436
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 2: He's ingrained it into me, and then he's telling me

437
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: to do it. And I was like, I don't want

438
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: to do that, Dad, And then not until later in life,

439
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 2: I kind of knew what he was doing there. But

440
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 2: but then mum, you know, he manipulates mum. And Mum

441
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: gets on the stand and says he didn't do these things,

442
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: and he gets a no bill I think it was.

443
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 2: And he gets out and he gets released back to

444
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: our home.

445
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: After after all, after all that going through the court, we.

446
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 2: Came back to our house and then it goes on again.

447
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: So that would have taken a year or so.

448
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, roughly, I'm not exactly sure, but.

449
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: We're looking at eight nine, yeah, years of age, and.

450
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: This comes back out and he's come back out and

451
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 2: he's promised the world to us, as they do. He's

452
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: a con man. We got emergency housing after that though,

453
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: like while he was in custody, so we went from

454
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: the little apartment to a like an apartment of two

455
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: three bedrooms.

456
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: And then my sister was born.

457
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: But my sister had so many complications because what happened

458
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: in the womb, She almost died a few times on

459
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: a hospital. And he got out. He was there for

460
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: the birth, so he got out for the birth, which

461
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: and then he actually they moved us and he moved

462
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 2: into the new.

463
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: House with us. So I got to love the system.

464
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: And then this happened all over again. So repeated the

465
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: domestic violence.

466
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the next one was he went to

467
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: Jokula again and it happened again.

468
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: What I'm just trying to get a sceense, And it

469
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: was probably hard because you can't even remember what you

470
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: were thinking or how you're looking at life at that age.

471
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: But I can't comprehend what you've just described and your

472
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: view on life, Like how did you function at school?

473
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: Did you have mates? Did you have well?

474
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: I was always the old one out at school because

475
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: we never had money. I never had food much. I

476
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: wass never had the uniform, so I always stood out.

477
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: I was always you know, looking look at different kid.

478
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: And then by that stage, I knew my life was different.

479
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 2: So I was kind of shut down. I didn't say

480
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: too much. The only time I really talked to him,

481
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: I played footy. Footy was the only thing that I

482
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: hung on to. And so I just started getting ultra

483
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: aggressive as a young kid. Yeah, and fighting, and I

484
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: just started stealing, fighting, just I shut down. I got

485
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 2: diagnosed with dyslexia, and as soon as I heard that

486
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: as a young blake, I just thought I'm stupid. Yeah,

487
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 2: so and I was getting taken the cchs all over

488
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 2: the joint from my mom, going to jails, coming out like,

489
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 2: I just completely shut down.

490
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: Man, you build up aggression, I would imagine, sure, and

491
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: so many different fronts of the home life. You're not

492
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: got the social skills to find some mates, and so

493
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: you start stealing, getting you in the fights, being aggressive.

494
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: I would imagine you like a ticking time bomb.

495
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I got expelled a new one for stealing.

496
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: I started stealing it six years old and then like,

497
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: and I'd fight kids as soon as I used to

498
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: get bullied early on. And then when I met this

499
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: guy must have fa he said, you're not going to

500
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 2: get bullied him. If they hurt you, hurt them and

501
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: he goes. But if you've become the bully, like old

502
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: bully you But then I'm like, I'm coming am your

503
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: bulliness all the time. So it was just all these mixed.

504
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: Messages advice from a psyca.

505
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so then I became the bully. Yeah, like

506
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: I just took If I didn't have something.

507
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: I'd take it. But that's how I was. I was

508
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: doing this from six years old. You mentioned football, like

509
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: the team, sports and the environment didn't have any role models,

510
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: any male role models that Like.

511
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 2: My grandfather was always a really my mom's father, but

512
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: we never got the same much. But when he was

513
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: a very like you know, I loved him. I dored him,

514
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 2: and he was like my saving grace as a real

515
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: little bloke. And but also my oldest brother came into

516
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: my life, two older brothers from the logical now from.

517
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: The step father.

518
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: He had two sons, yeah, and they were like in

519
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: their mid twenties and one just kept going back in

520
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: down to jail and the other one did too. But

521
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: oldest one. He just kind of became like my father. Yeah,

522
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: he just never left me. And so like if I

523
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: didn't have that Blake, I'll probably be dead, you know.

524
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: So he just he knew what his father was, and

525
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: I think he just thought, I can't leave this kid.

526
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: Right, So he took that big brother.

527
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did, man, and he's still there today.

528
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: When did you start getting in trouble with the cops.

529
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: I think I first got arrested about eight years old. Yeah,

530
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: So we moved to another place. He was a commission

531
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: like community in our tirement, and then I just you know,

532
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: there's like hundreds of house the kids just you know,

533
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: lurking mums and dads on heroin or whatever. And so

534
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: I started hanging with older kids and then got in

535
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble and started getting arrested eight years old.

536
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: Did you do any time in youth detention? No.

537
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 2: I always threatened to go, and they always gave me chances,

538
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: and I'd snap out of it a little bit. And

539
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: when footy season was on, I noticed when to look back,

540
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: footy season wasn't on, I'm getting a lot of trouble

541
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: when footy season's I know'd something to look forward to

542
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: channel and you know, just and I could be aggressive

543
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: on the field. And then I started to get good,

544
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: so I started to like, Okay, this is my way,

545
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 2: this is my way out.

546
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: What about from an education point of view, you diagnosed

547
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: has been dyslexic. Did you just shut down and just

548
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: behave to cover that up? Yeah?

549
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: I just completely shut down. I couldn't read it right properly.

550
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: I just completely shut soon as I heard the word dyslexic,

551
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: I just convinced myself from an idiot, I'm incapable of learning.

552
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

553
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: It h and when the violence at home, like I

554
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: just gave to school and just be like mute and

555
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: I just act out, you know, as soon as I

556
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: if I had reading class, act out.

557
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: I'm not reading. I can't kick Yeah, get kicked out

558
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: of class. Awesome. That's that was my life for school. Yeah.

559
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: It's a sad pattern, isn't a lot of kids do it?

560
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: Like you look back and you go it's going on. Yeah,

561
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: at the time, you think they're just being in the class.

562
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, been a goose making life hard for everyone. But

563
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: they're hiding something. And I just never said anything. Yeah,

564
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: I was trained not to.

565
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: You spoke of your grandfather. As you're becoming a teenager,

566
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: did you have any dreams or ambitions or any any

567
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: idea what you wanted to do? Or you've grown up

568
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: with a lot of people who have been in and

569
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: out of jail. Did you think that was just your

570
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: natural progression? Yeah, there was two dreams.

571
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: Really, there was one dream since I was a little boy,

572
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: was just to play an oral.

573
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my dream.

574
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: I thought, that's it, that's the way, that's how I

575
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: get out of this. And if that failed, well, my

576
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: ride passage is gone to jail. So one footy ended,

577
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: that was it?

578
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: How did your foot the end? Did it get to

579
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: the point where you weren't going to cover at the

580
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: level or Yeah?

581
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: I started playing representative footy at fourteen, so mainly started

582
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: looking at me, started playing for him, went to development

583
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: squads Harold Matthew's SG bore and thought, okay, so you're

584
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: on the way.

585
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: On the way.

586
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: But then I started getting a knee injury and then

587
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: lost a lot of confidence and then obviously not talking

588
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: about what was going on inside of me either, and

589
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: I was already getting the rest a lot. I was

590
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: on curfews, I was going to court all the time,

591
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: and then I had my first job of alcohol and

592
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: then that was it. That was a spiral. Over the

593
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: next couple of years, I just lost the desire of

594
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: the one thing that all I ever wanted to do.

595
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of stories of

596
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: people wasted talent where the drugs and the alcohol have

597
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: kicked in it those in those.

598
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: Years because I thought I've been never had a drug

599
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: with an alcohol ever. And then when I had my

600
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: first drink and started to get started to do it regularly,

601
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was numb, but I actually

602
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: never knew how much pain and anger I was in

603
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: until I had the alcohol.

604
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I don't feel like that, Like

605
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: I feel happy, right, So that that was that was

606
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: the impact that they had on you.

607
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't because I liked it.

608
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: I hated it. I hate it. I still hate it.

609
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, But at that at the beginning, it was like, oh,

610
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: I can block everything out. But then this it took

611
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: it took complete control over me.

612
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 1: How were you when you started drinking?

613
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: About fifteen and then didn't take over my life to

614
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: about eight eight months later, and I just eventually just

615
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: walked away from from everything right, and my stepfather actually

616
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: O d you did in two thousand and three on heroin,

617
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: and then that was it. His effect dying on me

618
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: was like, it was horrific, it was weird.

619
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: It taught me through that because he wasn't the greatest

620
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: role model in your life, had a profound effect on you.

621
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: I just never accepted what he did to me at

622
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: that point, you know, And for some reason I idolized him.

623
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: I just saw the good in him, still looking for

624
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: his love. Yeah, And then when he died three months later,

625
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: I went to juvie and then my life of jail began.

626
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: What sort of crimes was the alcohol induced.

627
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: And how co induced everything? Yeah, just violent crimes. There's

628
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: always violence, robberies, robbery's, robbery companies, and then just you know, violence.

629
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: Did And I know the type of person you are now,

630
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: And so I'm asking not how you look back now,

631
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: but how you looked at yourself at the time when

632
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: you If you bash someone and rob them, I would

633
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: imagine there, Yeah, the normal reaction is feel a little

634
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: bit of guilt. Some poor dudes just walking along the

635
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: road and you've flogged him and taken their wallet or whatever.

636
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: Did you have any conscience back then very rarely, so

637
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: I didn't even didn't give it a second thought, not much.

638
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: I was probably out my worst when I was about

639
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: fifteen or seventy eighth.

640
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: I was just like a tunnel vision. Well, yeah, I've

641
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: giving you a bit of a lifeline here. I think

642
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: we're all a little bit that way at that age.

643
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: Like you do something and you don't consider it was funny, Yeah,

644
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: you don't consider the consequences, all the impact that having on.

645
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: And I hated myself. I had no self worth. So

646
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: it's there was guilt definitely, like when I got caught. Yeah,

647
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: I just always own up.

648
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah it was me. It was like relief.

649
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: I think it was weird, but in the moment, yeah,

650
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: I just didn't.

651
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: I was just act out. Your offenses would have accumulated.

652
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: I imagine that. Then you went to JUVI. How long

653
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: did you get in there? Or I did five months?

654
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: I turned eighteen whereabout in common right, and then went

655
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: to Baxter and then turned eighteen and then got out

656
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: probably I think it was about four days after my

657
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: eighteenth and then went to jail eight days later.

658
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about that. The experience in the

659
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: juvenile detention so you got in there sixteen. You're not

660
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: being judged in there like there's the people who are

661
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: in would have a lot of them would have had

662
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: the same mindset as you did.

663
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, of June for me was great, Like I enjoyed

664
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: it great as in I was safe, I got fed,

665
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: like add a routine. I didn't have to worry about

666
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: where I'm eating, Who's going to hurt me.

667
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: It was an easier life. It was comfort.

668
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: It was something that I never had. I never had

669
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: the structure and routine. So for me, I really craved that.

670
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: It's sad, isn't it that the environment can give you

671
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: the security you're looking.

672
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: For, Like I share it to you. When I walked out, Yeah,

673
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: I didn't want to leave, like I really didn't, man,

674
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: not until later in life and I was reflecting. I thought,

675
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: no kid should have wanted to be in there, and

676
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 2: I wanted to be there, you know.

677
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: So, Okay, so they've released you when you've you've turned

678
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: eighteen and you've hit the streets, We've I haven't learned

679
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: any lessons other than probably how to do crime a

680
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: little bit better, and you've still got the anger issues.

681
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: I was fine, and I was always fighting in Juli.

682
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: But then when I got out, I just went on

683
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: a bender. I got drunk for eight days, wake up

684
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: in a police station.

685
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: Whether you're done in those eight days.

686
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: So they said, I don't even have a memory of that.

687
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: So it started back then, aggravated Robert, three of us

688
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: and who it was a shop and barely I didn't

689
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: even remember it. I just remembered waking up in the

690
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: police station.

691
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: So you drink the point of blackout, yeah, back.

692
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: Then, definitely to the point of blackout, and then just

693
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: wake up and you find out what you've done.

694
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: How what was the consequences of that?

695
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: I got five years and three years. I got a

696
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: three year sentence in and two year parole. So I

697
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: got out when I was twenty one.

698
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: Where did you do your time?

699
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: So I did my did the Young Offenders program a

700
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: John Moroney and went through the Oberon process and did

701
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: the works release and went home after three years. So

702
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: on remand silk Water paramatter park Lee.

703
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: How was that going in the eighteen because it's a

704
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: different level, different environment, going from juvene the older team,

705
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: it's a different adult prison. How did you cape with

706
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: that and how did you feel?

707
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: It was like a real weird feeling because it's like

708
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: I never left juvieyeh. And I was with two other people,

709
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,479
Speaker 2: so carle offenders. I wasn't alone, which kind of helped.

710
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: You're not as fearful. Yeah, you got to jail as

711
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: a kid. I was an eighteen year old little seventy

712
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: k whip it, so you know, I'm going in there,

713
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: and was always anxiety and fear. And then but then

714
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: as soon as I got in there, I recognized majority

715
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: of these guys, so the guys my age, and I

716
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: was like, oh okay, so I just it's just the

717
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: next level on the secondary school. Yeah, just keep moving forward.

718
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: And then then you go to the young offender's place

719
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: under twenty five is and you're just all the same

720
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: age doing it.

721
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: Is there anything that could have could have changed you?

722
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: Like at that point in time when you're in Nah,

723
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: I wasn't listening to anyone.

724
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 2: I just thought being sober for three years and getting

725
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: my head right training every day. I eventually got a

726
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 2: year ten certificate in that time, so it's a little

727
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 2: bit of got an education and you know that the

728
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 2: ignorance of me thought, oh I'm sweet. And then as

729
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: soon as you step out I was able to get

730
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: a job and I had a girlfriend. Life is pretty good.

731
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: But then I never addressed any issue. So then they

732
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: started the resurface again.

733
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: Tell us like, that's where I think a lot of

734
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: mistakes are made. Like you've done your stint in prison.

735
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: Ideal situation is that, Okay, you're going to come out

736
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: and turn your life around. I get the sense when

737
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: you released, you did your three years. Yep. I get

738
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: the sense when you released, you didn't have a game plan.

739
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: You just yeah, okay, open the gates, let me out,

740
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: and let's see what happens. Everybody obvious what's going to happen.

741
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: That's why we've got the high recidivism.

742
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, I'll start my new life and prepare

743
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: everything to day get out. And I learned that this time,

744
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 2: Like all the mistakes that I've made, I've reflected later on.

745
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just thought I'll start life when I

746
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: get out. I thought I've got a job.

747
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: Sweet.

748
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know that's like the foolish.

749
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: What what was what was the job?

750
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: You're going, I'll just work in a roofing factory. Yeah,

751
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: so open and shut roofing. Where I made of mind

752
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: was working and he's the boss.

753
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: Let me in.

754
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 2: I started working there. I hated jobs. The first week

755
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: I got out of jail and in a routine, loving life,

756
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: I thought really changed my life here.

757
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to make it go?

758
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: Did you?

759
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: I really did, because I hated you. I didn't want

760
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 2: to get back and I had a clear mind. I

761
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: had a goal, like just to work and try to

762
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 2: But as soon as I started drinking again slowly it

763
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: took about nine months, and I just started to go

764
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: back to old habits, you know, start hanging around the

765
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 2: same people again.

766
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: Did you at any point in time look at you

767
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: your drinking and think, okay, this is where it all

768
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: goes bad.

769
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hated drinking. I actually hated drinking.

770
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: Did you consider getting help like AA or.

771
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: I never knew how to ask to help me, and

772
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: I always it was always ingrained in me. You asked

773
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: to help you weak? So I was always fighting that

774
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: I wanted help, but I had no idea how to

775
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: ask for it, and nobody like I just It took many,

776
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: many years for me to finally say I need I

777
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: need help, you know, but there's I would have. I

778
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: wasn't listening to anybody. And I was just so hard

779
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: headed at ship my shoulder. There's no way I want

780
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: to express anybody that I need help.

781
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: Did you have anyone on the outside, anyone gave you

782
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: a clip over the year and said, mate, if you drink,

783
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: you're another good person. And you drink, your life is

784
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: going to be destroyed. Was there any any support in

785
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: that way?

786
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: My older brother tried to, but he's drinking himself, he's

787
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: living his life.

788
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: So and I was just and no one.

789
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: Really was kind of kind of game enough to say

790
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: to me, you know, and like I would have just just.

791
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: You know, aunt least on them. I'm not an expert

792
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: on the addiction alcohol, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever,

793
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: but I've spoken to enough people sitting opposite you that

794
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: have gone down the path, and a lot of them say,

795
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: you've got to fix the cause, to fix the drinking

796
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: or the addiction, and taking on board what you said

797
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: earlier on will you find him relief from your fucked

798
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: up life to a degree, Oh okay, let's just get

799
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: it on the drink and all the pain goes away.

800
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: All the pain goes away. But that's why I like

801
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: to going to jail too. Yeah, because I didn't have

802
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: to drink and it was taken away from me. I'm

803
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: not a really drug taker, so in jail, I was like,

804
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: I can just be normal. So it was such a

805
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: warped mentality. I didn't feel normal less I was back

806
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: in jail, ye, like because I didn't want to hurt

807
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: anybody anymore, even from it, Like around that age, I

808
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: was like, I just got to jail, and I that's

809
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: three years I was out after I was twenty one. Yeah,

810
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: Like there's times there like I want to go jael

811
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 2: Like I even I even got myself arrested and begged

812
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 2: the police to refuse me to go jail because I

813
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: was I knew that I was something's wrong with me.

814
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: Just talk talk us through that, Like that must be

815
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: hard hard to come to terms with the fact that hey,

816
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: I need to be locked up something.

817
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: And I went to the police station, had got it

818
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: was on the pissing manly with my missus, got blind drunk,

819
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: had fights and security guards and whatnot. I snapped out

820
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: if it got out of the pub and I said, man,

821
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: I'm going and she's like, where are you going? So

822
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 2: I'm going at jail and then like she was trying

823
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: to pull me and push me, and I slapped her. Yeah,

824
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: I said, and I just and I ran from the

825
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: Staying hotel to the Manly police station and then my

826
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: brother was with me, and I took my watch off

827
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: from a wallet gave it to him a week going.

828
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 2: And so I'm going to jail and we're in the

829
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: police station and the cops like comes out, He's like,

830
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: what are you doing? And I grabbed the cop by

831
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: the collar. I said, if you don't arrest me, you

832
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: want to knock you out. And my brother's like just

833
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: flipping out, saying he's on ice. And this cop was

834
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: just I don't think he's ever come across anything lot

835
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: that in his life. And then one of the coppers

836
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: came out. He kind of knew me from the gym.

837
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: I said come in here, and I said, I'll come

838
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: into the dock. As long as you refuse me, I'll

839
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: tell you a crime that I've committed just now. I

840
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: slapped my missus and then he just thought I was

841
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: crazy and I was blind drunk, and he said just

842
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: go to sleep, and I said no, no, no, you have

843
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: to charge me. And he promised me that he would

844
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: charged me, and refused me, and I woke up and

845
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: then the female cops like, wake up, he's been bailed.

846
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

847
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 2: And then that was in February Australia Day. And in

848
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: June I went to Jarf Murder right, So I knew

849
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 2: something was wrong with me and that was my cry

850
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: for help, but I didn't know how to ask for help.

851
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: And I got released from the from the cells, went

852
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: straight home, my missus slapping me.

853
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 1: What did you have for? Were you getting any professional help?

854
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: I never spoke to anybody, and it was your mum

855
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: still in the mum. I was living at mum's house

856
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 2: of the time. Yeah, and she's still in her mate Yeah,

857
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: tops of relationship there, so she's in her own Hell,

858
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 2: I'm in mind.

859
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: The whole family were. So this is just in the

860
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: sequence of events. We know you've done your time in

861
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: juvenile You've you've got that, you're locked up eight days

862
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 1: after spent three years in prison, and then you're out.

863
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: The incident you just talked about then was two years

864
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: out of prison, three years out for three years. What

865
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: other type of stuff were you're doing in the in

866
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: the lead up to this.

867
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: Oh, by that time, I was fully living a criminal life.

868
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: You weren't working, so just that time stealing.

869
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: Or I was just doing I was just making money,

870
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: and I wasn't doing good things.

871
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't hanging good people.

872
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: I was locked in to that world and just taking

873
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 2: time by me.

874
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose the inevitable, inevitable happens. And if I

875
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: looked at you, if I was looking at from a

876
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: CoP's point of view, and I'm looking at the history,

877
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: and Okay, what's saying the amount of time before he

878
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: does something bad that's going to put him away for

879
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: a long time, And oh for sure, that's actually actually

880
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: what happened. So with the lead up to the murder

881
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: of Eden Brown, what was your mindset? I think you've

882
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: explained it to a degree, but I'm just trying to man.

883
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: I didn't care if I lived a diet. You know.

884
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: I was in a dark place.

885
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 2: I was like I think I held on till twenty four,

886
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: Like through all the trauma and all the shit that

887
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: I went through, I never spoke. And by the age

888
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: of twenty four, I think I just it all came out.

889
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: I was going to die, yeah, or go to jail

890
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 2: for a very long time, and I think I just burst.

891
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: Everything was I broke.

892
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: Is it? It was an anger building up inside you.

893
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was, man, there's hate and rage, Like I

894
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever met anyone as angry as me.

895
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and full of rage. So would that play out

896
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: if someone just bumped you the wrong way or disrespected

897
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: you or.

898
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I wasn't like too much. I'm a loyal guy,

899
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: I love my mates.

900
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm normal.

901
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: But then if it clicks up, that's it. We're on.

902
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: And I just gave all got friends like that, glazed

903
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: eyes come over and.

904
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: Yeah see later. You know, anything could happen.

905
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: What happened the night Eden was killed just a normal night. Man.

906
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: I just went down to a mate's mind, as he

907
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 2: called me, just for a couple of beers down, you know,

908
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes in my house. Yeah, And that was in

909
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: the afternoon sometime, And I rocked up with a case

910
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: and bottle with a made of mine and we just

911
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: started drinking. It was just normal, you know, there wasn't anything.

912
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: Then people just kept coming and going and coming. Yeah,

913
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: it just started like a gathering and then eventually, you know,

914
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: there was nearly up to thirty to forty people there.

915
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: I reckon at one.

916
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: Time and by the time. I remember, like it's probably

917
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: like ten o'clock and I was waiting for my missus

918
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: to come about twelve o'clock. She was coming after work,

919
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: so I thought I'd just stayed. I was just drink

920
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: till then and then I'll head off. But then it

921
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 2: just all went pair shape, man, Like I was so blind, Okay.

922
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: I just remember sitting in the garage. Everyone was drinking.

923
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 2: A lot of guys are on coconut, but I didn't

924
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: take any cacineying. And I remember like Eden wasn't there

925
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 2: until maybe like later in the night, tenish eleven ish,

926
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: and I remember getting asked that to bring it eat

927
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: and I said, no, no, don't bring eating him in,

928
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: Like this is not he's scene, man, And I just

929
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: knew like something pop off, And I said, no, no,

930
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 2: I don't.

931
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: Bring it me here.

932
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to call him, and like nobody

933
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: knows this stuff but and I won't say names or anything,

934
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: but and they kept saying to me, calling, you know,

935
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 2: and eventually I just got so drunk I said call him.

936
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: And I remember Eating saying to me, are you going

937
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: to be there? I said, yeah, I'm here, I'm here

938
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: to about midnight. Then I'm going. I said, He's like,

939
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: I only come if you come. I don't trust no one.

940
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: I don't trust these guys. I said, yeah, and I've

941
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: said whatever I said to him, and he came. He

942
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: came with I think, three girls, and everything's no worries, drinking.

943
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: Fun, this normal stuff.

944
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: And then I remember going outside and I was blind, man,

945
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: and went to the toilet which is chucked the leak

946
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: in the backyard. And then as I picked up my

947
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: beard turned around. You know, I just see a fight,

948
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: which is normal. I didn't think any of it, and

949
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: then I realized it was eating and he's getting getting attacked,

950
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: and and that's where I black out, man. And then

951
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: after that, I just hear screams. After I black out,

952
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: I've come to somehow. I remember someone grabbing me or something,

953
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: not a hut him sent sure, man, I just remember

954
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: snapping out of whatever I was in, and you know,

955
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: I heard these screams and I saw Eden run away

956
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: and he ran through a fence, a color bond fence, like.

957
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: You know, he's fear for his life.

958
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: And I remember that, and then we just left and

959
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: then went to two other houses after that, and I

960
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 2: just thought oh yeah, okay, punch on think getting of

961
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 2: it again. And I've got no blood on me or

962
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: anything like that. And then I just continued to drink,

963
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: just kept drinking.

964
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: And then.

965
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: It was like maybe six o'clock in the morning or something,

966
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: and I was at this house and they said a

967
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: couple of guys got arrested.

968
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: At the scene.

969
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, why just for the fight,

970
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: and they're like yeah, and I was like okay. And

971
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: then one of the ladies that was at the house

972
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: was ringing the hospitals and I was like okay. And

973
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: then finally around the hospital and they said, you know,

974
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: Eaton Brown's passed away.

975
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: I was like, all right.

976
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: Couldn't put my head like, I couldn't understand how because

977
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: I had no idea that he'd been stabbed at that time.

978
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: So I left started sober and I was like, what's

979
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: I couldn't get any answers, and I just had this

980
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: feeling like, all right, they're coming for me. I didn't

981
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: really know why they're coming for me.

982
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: I just.

983
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: Had this feeling and I knew the guys I was

984
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: they're going to say it to me anyway. And I

985
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: watched the news that night and they said even the

986
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: men died at a house party being stabbed.

987
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

988
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: And then I found out he'd been stabbed and I

989
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: was like okay, and I was just waiting and I

990
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: was like okay. But the police didn't raide out any

991
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: my like my mum's house, my brother's house, or anyone

992
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: till the Monday. I think it's happened on the sturdy

993
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 2: or something. And then on Monday I got the call

994
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: from one of my brothers say, mate, they've raided out

995
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: these houses for you for murder. And I said okay,

996
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: so pretty much. Then I just got drunk until they

997
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: arrested me in King's Cross for three weeks.

998
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: How long after three weeks? Okay. So my understanding of

999
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: it only going through information that was contained in the

1000
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: media about the time that there was the fight at

1001
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: the party and that he was he was stabbed twice. Yeah,

1002
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: and you have pleaded guilty to it. No one else

1003
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: has been, no one else has been charged in relation

1004
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: to it. So and I take on board what you

1005
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: said during that second trial to your solicitor obviously was

1006
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: incriminating against you. That's why I had to take it off.

1007
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: I've said, I've seen fights I've seen drunken fights, I've

1008
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: seen stuff. Stuff has happened. I haven't haven't seen it

1009
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: to that extent in my personal life, but I've seen

1010
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: that in my policing life where someone ends up dead.

1011
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: Did you at that point in time leading up to

1012
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: it where you tried to hand yourself into the cops

1013
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: you were concerned you were going to do something stupid?

1014
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: Stupid is a nice way of putting it, but yeah,

1015
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: you were going to cause some damage. The knife, the

1016
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: knife that was used for the murder. Did you bring

1017
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: the knife.

1018
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: To the I never carried my knife a knife in

1019
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: my life. Yeah, where I was just that knife was

1020
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: from the from the kitchen I was out of the block.

1021
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: It's a steak knife.

1022
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: And I don't even know I remember that knife being

1023
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: in the garage because I was opening coronas with it.

1024
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 2: Because it's no ballo. That's why the reason the knife

1025
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: was in the garage, right, That's what I do know. Yeah,

1026
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 2: when I was a knife to that that took his life.

1027
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: Did you did you have any injuries from the from.

1028
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: The fight that you didn't have a drop of blood? Right,

1029
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: didn't have an injury?

1030
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: When you found out he died? And you were thinking

1031
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: that the police are going to come after you. And

1032
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: clearly from what you told your your solicitor and embarrassed,

1033
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: you had some recollection of it. Do you recall being

1034
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: in the fight at all or what the anger? What?

1035
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: I definitely I know and towards the fight. Yeah, And

1036
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: obviously I'm blacked out at that stage. And you know,

1037
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 2: and Eden said that I stabbed him, yeah, before he.

1038
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: Died, right, So in a dying deposition.

1039
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, dying declaration he said, Anthony Jones stabbed me.

1040
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: Right. I wanted to ask how you feel, but just

1041
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: piecing it all together, and yeah, if I was sitting

1042
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: and this is uncomfortable, We're in a podcast. If I'm

1043
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: sitting in the Yeah, an interview room is a homicide detective.

1044
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm asking you a few more questions. Will how the

1045
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: knife get into your hand? That that type of stuff?

1046
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 1: When the cops arrested you, did you participate in an interview?

1047
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: Has refused to speak, right, So, which is you're right?

1048
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: And I've never spoke to it now, right, this is

1049
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: the first time anybody's going to hear anything.

1050
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: This is the first time. Man, when you first when

1051
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 1: did you first find find out that ed had passed

1052
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 1: away when the girl fanned the hospital, when the girl

1053
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: found the hospital here, and I would ask you if

1054
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: we're seeing in an interview room, like why do you

1055
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: think you were the person responsible for it? Yeah?

1056
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: I don't know what the police really said to me.

1057
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: They asked me like questions. I remember, but and know

1058
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: what they were How to sit now, I'm not talking

1059
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: just charge me taking back to the doc. That's as

1060
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: far as I went. I knew that I was going

1061
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 2: to say anything I would.

1062
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: I would imagine that if given the fact that they

1063
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: did charge you with it, You've got the dying declaration

1064
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: that Edan has said that you stabbed him, and there

1065
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 1: would have been witnesses at the party. I would suggest

1066
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: some of the witnesses with the set I've seen nothing

1067
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: when they might have, but there must have been some

1068
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: witnesses that that gave some evidence about what took place.

1069
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone there was a few crowd witnesses against me. Yeah,

1070
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: but no one saw the crime. No one conclusively said

1071
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: what they saw could say it was me.

1072
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: In the circumstances like that where mid Trill and then

1073
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: the solicitors talking to the DPP and what we would

1074
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: call it settled settle on some agreed facts. Yeah, so

1075
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: the facts would be okay your side, you've been the

1076
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: defense and the prosecutor agreed that these are the facts

1077
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: of what's occurred with this incident. Were you comfortable with

1078
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: the agreed facts? Yeah? I didn't really.

1079
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: I don't think I read it, but I didn't really

1080
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: process it.

1081
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: But you had this solicit Yeah, he read.

1082
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did. He went above and beyond me. Yeah. Right,

1083
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: he's a decent man, and yeah, like yeah, he really,

1084
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: he really believed in me and helped me as much as.

1085
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: He could going over what we've talked about. You're taking

1086
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,959
Speaker 1: responsibility for it, for sure. Yeah, okay, it's me, all right.

1087
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 2: There was never a premeditation, man, Yeah, I never had

1088
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 2: any There's never a thought in my mind to kill,

1089
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 2: to kill anybody or even that night.

1090
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: That's a that's a frustration I got as a homicide detective.

1091
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: How many times and people go murderers that they've planned it,

1092
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: they're doing this, and the even and this might oh

1093
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: I won't say annoy, but people might disagree. Where people

1094
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: say mandatory sentences in murder or if you murder someone

1095
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: you should get life. There's a lot of different types

1096
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: of murders that people don't quite understand, and knives. I

1097
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: often see that. I've seen people get stabbed twenty times

1098
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: and they don't die. Yeah, and then I see people

1099
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: that get stabbed once a couple of teenagers and someone

1100
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: pulls out a pen knife and stabs and they die.

1101
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: That's the risk inherited with if you do do you

1102
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: use a weapon. But yeah, it must be difficult for

1103
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: you sitting here talking about it. I'm sitting here from

1104
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: a homicide to take this point of view going I

1105
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: want to go here, I want to go there, and

1106
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 1: all that. But I appreciate you you've been open and

1107
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: talking about it. We'll take a break now when we

1108
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: get back. I did tell you that Eden's sister representing

1109
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: the family, had a few things that she wanted me

1110
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: to ask you. And I think we also need to

1111
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: clarify why we're sitting down and talking is that one

1112
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: of the things that's impressed me is how you have

1113
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: turned your life around and the direction your life is

1114
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: on now. And we're going to talk about that at

1115
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: length because it's very rare that someone comes in to

1116
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: a situation like this with a person like me and

1117
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: sits down and talks about what we're talking about. So

1118
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: let's have a break. It's a heavy, heavy conversation. There

1119
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: is some there is some light at the end of

1120
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: the tunnel. I'll say that, otherwise people mightn't come back.

1121
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: It sounds good.