WEBVTT - Part 2: How Elon Musk will benefit from NASA’s Mars plans 

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<v Speaker 1>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>This is part two of our interview with Wall Street

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<v Speaker 2>Journal reporter Emily Gleiza. If you haven't already stopped by

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<v Speaker 2>listening to Donald Trump wants to put humans on Mars.

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<v Speaker 3>There's this program at NASA that is known as Artemis,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's a long range plan to explore the Moon

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<v Speaker 3>and eventually Mars.

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<v Speaker 4>We are going to the Moon, to deep space and

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<v Speaker 4>to Mars.

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<v Speaker 3>So NASA has had Mars and its long term plans,

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<v Speaker 3>but currently it first wants to carry out a return

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<v Speaker 3>to the Moon's surface, and it wants to establish a

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<v Speaker 3>sustained human presence on the Moon with habitats and.

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<v Speaker 1>Rovers, bostergnition and left off of Artamus one we rise

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<v Speaker 1>together back to.

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<v Speaker 3>The Moon and beyond. Elon Musk's ideal is skip over

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<v Speaker 3>all those things about the Moon and just start getting

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<v Speaker 3>a Mars And our reporting shows that at some parts

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<v Speaker 3>of the US government he is getting the wheels turning

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<v Speaker 3>for his plans to move forward.

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<v Speaker 5>So, Emily, I know you've been speaking to people close

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<v Speaker 5>to Musk, but you've also been talking to a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of people within NASA, and I just wonder if you

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<v Speaker 5>can tell me a bit more about what Elo Musk's

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<v Speaker 5>focus on Mars means for NASA's current plans to go

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<v Speaker 5>back to the Moon. How has that all shifted?

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<v Speaker 3>So there were officials from Trump's Office of Management and Budget,

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<v Speaker 3>so this is like a division within the White House

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<v Speaker 3>that controls federal spending. They've told people that there are

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<v Speaker 3>discussions underway to move US government dollars toward Mars initiatives

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<v Speaker 3>and away from NASA programs focused on the Moon and

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<v Speaker 3>science mission. So that goes back to this whole idea

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<v Speaker 3>of like how much is this going to cost? And

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<v Speaker 3>even if you move like all these other programs and

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<v Speaker 3>shift priorities, you know, it would be quite an undertaking.

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<v Speaker 3>So NASA has been working on the Artemis program and

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<v Speaker 3>its predecessors for many, many, many years, and even to

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<v Speaker 3>the point where the cost for the government's programming on

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<v Speaker 3>all this for roughly thirteen years, they've projected it to

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<v Speaker 3>be ninety three billion dollars and that's from the government's

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<v Speaker 3>fiscal year of twenty twelve through the fiscal year of

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty five, and that's all around Artemis spending ninety

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<v Speaker 3>three billion. So this is a very expensive, very costly program,

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<v Speaker 3>and Elon Musk has not been shy.

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<v Speaker 4>In fact, he tweeted on X in.

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<v Speaker 3>January he said the Moon program is a distraction, and

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<v Speaker 3>days earlier he criticized Artemis and said something entirely new

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<v Speaker 3>is needed. So if they were to kill those programs

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<v Speaker 3>or dramatically remake, you know, the Moon programs, that would

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<v Speaker 3>unravel so many years of development work. Though, we've also

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<v Speaker 3>talked to people that say some of the hardware for

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<v Speaker 3>Artemis it's just too expensive, it's too slow to produce,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's behind schedule. So there are people that are

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<v Speaker 3>definitely in the camp of like, don't cancel this. They're

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<v Speaker 3>much time and energy and money that went into it.

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<v Speaker 3>And then there are other people saying this is just

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<v Speaker 3>not working and we got to rip it up. And

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<v Speaker 3>sometimes you need to bring in an outsider to really

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<v Speaker 3>throw things up in the air. And perhaps, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>if Elon Musk is that person, and Donald Trump can

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<v Speaker 3>kind of like blame him for the people that get upset,

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<v Speaker 3>then perhaps there could be benefits to that.

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<v Speaker 5>And just to take a slat step back, can you

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<v Speaker 5>just tell me what the goal of atomis is.

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<v Speaker 3>So NASA launched Artemis one and that powered the Orion

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<v Speaker 3>space capsule toward the Moon in twenty twenty two, and

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<v Speaker 3>that was an uncrewed test flight that debuted Boeing's Space

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<v Speaker 3>Launch System SLS rocket. SOLS rocket is like a really

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<v Speaker 3>big deal in the space community, and NASA plans to

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<v Speaker 3>use SLS to send astronauts to orbit the Moon on

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<v Speaker 3>Orion in twenty twenty seven, so two years from now,

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<v Speaker 3>and from there a SpaceX lander would shuttle them to

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<v Speaker 3>the surface of the a year later. From that, NASA

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<v Speaker 3>aims to start using something called Gateway, and it's a

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<v Speaker 3>planned space station that would orbit the Moon so that

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<v Speaker 3>future crews would fly to Gateway and then from there

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<v Speaker 3>they would board Moonlanders to get to the surface of

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<v Speaker 3>the Moon. SpaceX, Boeing and others have many billions and

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<v Speaker 3>contracts to build rockets and ships and lunar landing vehicles

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<v Speaker 3>and other technologies for the program. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 3>that's gone into this and SpaceX and other companies, including

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<v Speaker 3>Blue Origin, which is Jeff Bezos's space company. There are

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<v Speaker 3>many that are tied to different parts of this massive program.

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<v Speaker 3>But now Musk wants to move up plans to go

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<v Speaker 3>to Mars and their goal is to launch an uncrewed

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<v Speaker 3>mission to Mars next year, with crude missions as early

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<v Speaker 3>as twenty twenty nine.

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<v Speaker 5>So Bezos would potentially stend to lose contracts if NASA

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<v Speaker 5>switches SKIS to mass.

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<v Speaker 3>Well it's interesting you say that, because if SpaceX gives

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<v Speaker 3>up its roughly four billion in Moon focused contracts tied

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<v Speaker 3>to Artemis, any changes to Artemis could affect Blue Origin.

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<v Speaker 3>It has a contract under Artemis to develop a lander

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<v Speaker 3>for a future Moon mission, So it's unclear if it

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<v Speaker 3>could benefit Blue Origin because if SpaceX is giving up something,

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<v Speaker 3>then if those contracts still exist, someone would take them.

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<v Speaker 3>And right now, Blue Origin is the other company that

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<v Speaker 3>has an active contract with this particular type of work.

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<v Speaker 3>So it isn't totally clear to us if Blue Origin

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<v Speaker 3>would be a winner or a loser.

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<v Speaker 4>But I think there's an opportunity for it as well.

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<v Speaker 5>And how unusual is it for an individual, someone like

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<v Speaker 5>Elon Musk in this case, to have this level of

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<v Speaker 5>influence over a government agency when at the same time

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<v Speaker 5>they also have a very clear financial and personal interest

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<v Speaker 5>in the outcome.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there wasn't a Doze before President Trump, so let's

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<v Speaker 3>start there.

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<v Speaker 4>It's highly unusual. I mean I don't think people.

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<v Speaker 3>Have found in modern US history something like this out

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<v Speaker 3>in the open. That's the key thing here, Like we

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<v Speaker 3>don't know how much would be going on behind closed

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<v Speaker 3>doors for a business person with financial interests to have

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<v Speaker 3>such influence over agencies that regulate their businesses.

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<v Speaker 4>But this is unprecedented.

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<v Speaker 6>After the break, how Congress is trying to stop a.

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<v Speaker 4>One musk So Committee on Space and Aeronauts will come

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<v Speaker 4>to order.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome today's hearing entitled step by step the Artemis program,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's his path.

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<v Speaker 5>How much I suppose freedom does Moscow Isaacson have to

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<v Speaker 5>make changes at NASA? To what extent would they need

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<v Speaker 5>the approval or the corporation of the federal government or

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<v Speaker 5>other agencies.

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<v Speaker 3>I think this goes back to the US lawmakers. So

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<v Speaker 3>Artemis has really powerful supporters in Congress.

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<v Speaker 1>In two thousand and five, Congress directed NASA to develop

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<v Speaker 1>a sustained human presence on the Moon as a stepping

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<v Speaker 1>stone to future exploration of Mars and other destinations, and.

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<v Speaker 3>A bipurtisan group of senators so both the Democrats and

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<v Speaker 3>Republicans recently introduced legislation that requires NASA and its leaders

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<v Speaker 3>to continue supporting the existing plans and hardware for ARTEMIS,

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<v Speaker 3>including this Space Launch System or SLS rocket.

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<v Speaker 1>Given the time and resource intensive nature of any space mission,

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<v Speaker 1>successfully carrying out a crude space exploration program requires that

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<v Speaker 1>the government maintained continuity of purpose over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>several years. Changing direction isn't free, and it is edibly

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<v Speaker 1>taxing on the United States industrial base.

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<v Speaker 3>So exactly to your point, they're going to have a

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<v Speaker 3>hard time pushing through what they want because there are

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<v Speaker 3>different checks and balances in the US government. So it's

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<v Speaker 3>not like, oh, Elon wants something, Jared is his guy,

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<v Speaker 3>and NASA therefore it's just going to happen. But again,

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<v Speaker 3>it's quite unusual to have a private citizen also as

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<v Speaker 3>a top advisor to the president of the United States,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's a lot more power and influence in that.

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<v Speaker 3>So I would say, even though there's bipartisan lawmakers that

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<v Speaker 3>are supporters of ARTEMIS and don't want it to be disrupted,

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<v Speaker 3>we haven't really seen ever in US history modern US history,

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<v Speaker 3>the relationship that Elon Musk has with Donald Trump as

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<v Speaker 3>a business leader with a president of the United States,

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<v Speaker 3>at least out in the open like.

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<v Speaker 5>This, And what about through the Department of Government Efficiency.

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<v Speaker 5>Can Musk exert much power through there to make changes

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<v Speaker 5>at NASA?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, and it's already happening. I want to go

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<v Speaker 3>back to early February. I was hearing from people about

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<v Speaker 3>how nervous, you know, folks that NASA were about DOGE

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<v Speaker 3>kind of landing at the building. You know, each agency,

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<v Speaker 3>it's like DOGE arrives, Their people are nervous.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a mystery around it.

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<v Speaker 3>What are they doing, what kind of layouts are going

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<v Speaker 3>to happen, how will strategies change. So several weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 3>NASA's top executives, top brass gathered on the ninth floor

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<v Speaker 3>of their headquarters in Washington, d C. And there were

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<v Speaker 3>do staffers And part of the point of this meeting

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<v Speaker 3>was that DOGE had arrived, and they were kind of

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<v Speaker 3>like acknowledging that this was happening. DOGE would be analyzing

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<v Speaker 3>NASA's work and started off on a really awkward note.

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<v Speaker 3>People are around the conference room sharing their names and titles,

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<v Speaker 3>and one person who others knew to be a JOJ

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<v Speaker 3>staffer described themselves as a staffer at the Treasury Department

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<v Speaker 3>instead of part of DOGE. And so it was just like,

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<v Speaker 3>what's going on. This is the elephant in the room,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're not being totally honest.

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<v Speaker 4>And so even before the meeting, we.

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<v Speaker 3>Knew that some NASA officials had been concerned about how

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<v Speaker 3>transparent dough staffers would be about what they were doing

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<v Speaker 3>at the agency, and I think that meeting did not

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<v Speaker 3>help to assuage fears. NASA has had layoffs since then,

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<v Speaker 3>and so some of that work has already started to unfold.

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<v Speaker 3>I do want to say that NASA spokeswoman said that

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<v Speaker 3>they're committed to optimizing their workforce and resources in alignment

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<v Speaker 3>with DOGE, and that they ensure tax payer dollars are

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<v Speaker 3>directed towards the highest impact projects while maintaining NASA's essential functions.

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<v Speaker 4>That was a statement for NASA.

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<v Speaker 5>If we consider for a moment the possible end result

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<v Speaker 5>of masks mass plans as global warming accelerates, there's more

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<v Speaker 5>natural disasters. If we were to see a small number

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<v Speaker 5>of people who able to live on Mars, that would

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<v Speaker 5>presumably be something that would be under the control of

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<v Speaker 5>alone musque. So are we entering this kind of like

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<v Speaker 5>thought experiment where the richest people in the world can

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<v Speaker 5>decide who gets to leave when things get bad here.

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<v Speaker 3>You're making me think of those like compounds in New

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<v Speaker 3>Zealand that really wealthy people have. Look first, I will say,

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<v Speaker 3>if this happens, it would take a really, really, really

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<v Speaker 3>long time for there to be the infrastructure on Mars

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<v Speaker 3>to even have people live there safely. But engineers at

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<v Speaker 3>SpaceX have at times worked on unresolved questions about how

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<v Speaker 3>humans might live off the land on Mars, like turning

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<v Speaker 3>materials on the planet into usable resources. You know, technical

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<v Speaker 3>leaders include an employee whose job it is to focus

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<v Speaker 3>on landing a future starship spacecraft on the Martian surface.

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<v Speaker 3>We have some reporting about how even employees at Tesla

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<v Speaker 3>we're working on a special like pressurized vehicle that could

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<v Speaker 3>work on the surface of Mars.

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<v Speaker 4>So there are all these things that would have to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>I think right now they're talking about planting a flag

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<v Speaker 3>on Mars, which is very different than people living there.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know, I guess once you open the door

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<v Speaker 3>to something to your point, a lot of other doors

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<v Speaker 3>could open as well.

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<v Speaker 5>Emily, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank you, thanks for listening to seven AM. Tomorrow, I'm

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<v Speaker 6>bringing you an.

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<v Speaker 2>Episode about conscientious objection in healthcare. This is when religious pharmacists, doctors,

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<v Speaker 2>and entire hospitals refuse care because of their beliefs. This

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<v Speaker 2>kind of refusal has emerged alongside the hard fought gains

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<v Speaker 2>in reproductive medicine, voluntary assisted dying, and LGBTQI healthcare, often

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<v Speaker 2>with devastating consequences. Find out more on seven am tomorrow

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<v Speaker 2>See then