1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: The whole entrance is covered by a giant octopus. And 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: he thought, oh no, this is where the giant octopus 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: lives in this hole, and I'm in its way. And 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: that he said, the tentacles were enormously long and very powerful, 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: and in the end he had to hack his way out. 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: They would equip themselves with his boats, so they would 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: be using his boat to chase him. So he would 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: have to build one that's a bit faster in order 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: to stay one step ahead of them. I'm Andrew Rule 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: his life and crimes. Recent news that the Victorian state 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: government has sacked half of the people who have boots 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: on the ground and boats in the water to stop 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: poaching of our natural resources. This is very bad news 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: for all Victorians. Already it seems that the poaches, the thieves, 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: the sneaky people are encroaching on diminishing resources, diminishing fisheries. 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: Here are some small stories that tell us about a 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: bigger truth. Early morning walkers walking from Point Lonstyle to 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: Queenscliff around the bay. There's a path there people often 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: go walking early in the morning. Among them asks some 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: people who get out before dawn, and those people say 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: that sometimes when there are low tides, they notice a 22 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: peculiar thing. They see men coming out of the water 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: in wetsuits, with masks on and with often a spear 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: gun in one hand and a netting bag under the other. 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: They have no doubt that these people are in fact 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: swimming across into the nearby marine park, and they also 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: have no doubt that they're probably taking abaloni. And one 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: of the reasons I think that is that these people 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: never engage with locals who are walking past. When they 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: see them, they sprint towards their cars. They leave their 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: masks on, and they run towards their cars and jump 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: in the cars and drive away in to the dawnlight. 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: And this would suggest that they're up to no good. 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: Now around the corner in Queenscliff and Saint Leonard's and 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: across the bay places like Wherriby, South Williamstown and so on, 36 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: there are boats coming in and they will have their 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: bag limit of flathead or whiting or squid, whatever it 38 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: is that's going at that stage. And if there are 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: no fisheries offices around, or if they think that there 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: will be no fisheries officers around, the chances are that 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: some of these people the dishonest ones, the opportunists, the thieves, 42 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: will take a look around, take their bag, limit bag ashore, 43 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: stash it somewhere in an eski or in a friend's 44 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: car or whatever, and then within a little while reappear 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: on the water for a fresh lot of fishing. Now 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: they might change their jumpers, they might move things around 47 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: a bit, They might go and have a cup of 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: coffee and then return. But those people, if they've got 49 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: a chance to get away with it, some of them will, 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: and they go out and they get more fish, more squid. 51 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: And some of them, of course, are selling it on 52 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: the black market to restaurants and to fish shops and 53 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: the like for cash, because if they get the opportunity 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: to do it, they will do it. This is human nature. 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: And the only thing that stands between human nature and 56 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: theft or any other sort of wrongdoing is the law 57 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: and the enforcement of the law. The law doesn't really 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: work unless most of us think that it. 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 2: Will be enforced. 60 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: And just as we don't drive through red lights because 61 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: there are cameras there to record the fact and record 62 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: our car registration numbers, people who go fishing, many of 63 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: them obey the laws because they don't want to be 64 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: caught breaking them, and so they don't bring in undersized fish, 65 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: they don't bring in twice the bag limit because they 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: don't want to be grabbed for doing it, because if 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: you are grabbed, the penalties are quite severe. So if 68 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: the officers aren't around, it's a case of when the 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: cat's away, the mice will play. And you can guarantee 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: that these people, some of them, if they're not filling 71 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: freezers at the expense of more honest anglers, you can 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: bet they're actually selling to restaurants for cash. Now, when 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: the government announced that they were going to cut the 74 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: numbers of fisheries officers in half, there was a bureaucrat, 75 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: a dithering bureaucrat, who said a ridiculous thing. He said 76 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: that recreational anglers would regulate themselves. He said something like, 77 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: there's not a big problem, is there, Because if someone 78 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: comes into the boat ramp, you know, boasting that they've 79 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: got three hundred fish, they'll get a punch on the nose, 80 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: won't they. And essentially he's saying that other anglers, other 81 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: fishes should police their fellow anglers, and you inspect their 82 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: catch and if they think they've got too many fish 83 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: punch them on the nose. Now, that is a very 84 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: silly thing, because no one is going to go and 85 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: inspect other people's catch. No one is going to inspect 86 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: the catch of someone who's by definition armed. People who 87 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: go fishing have knives, fishing knives to fill it fish. 88 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: You aren't going to insert yourself into that conversation, particularly 89 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: with the thought of people that you suspect might be 90 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: poaching fish, because by definition they're going to be law 91 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: breakers and nasty pieces of work and possibly threatening and defensive. 92 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: So it's exactly what you would not do. And I'm 93 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: sure that the police would not advocate doing it. And 94 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: why some lunatic bureaucrat would think that was a good 95 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: thing to say, I don't know, but it's certainly not 96 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: sustainable or sensible. If anyone acted on it, it could in 97 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: fact lead to some very ugly scenes, and you know, 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: we could end up with cases in court where the 99 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: defense is well, you know, we heard a bureaucrat tell 100 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: us that we should police other fishermen, and I just 101 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: tried to do it, and you know, then he tried 102 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: to stab me and then I hit him with a boathook. 103 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: It's not going to wash. It's not going to go 104 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: well in court. So I think the idea of vigilantes 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: doing it wild West style and starting some fishing war 106 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: is absolutely ridiculous and it distracts us from the realities 107 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: of this situation. It's hard to believe that government bean 108 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: counters would actually believe their own propaganda. The evidence is 109 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: that abaloni and other marine life are under attack, and 110 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: that's there for anyone to see. That's an uncomfortable fact 111 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: for the state government. And the reality is if you 112 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: cut the fish officers numbers in half, this can only 113 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: get worse. Now every other abaloney fishery in the world, 114 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: and I'm talking from South Africa to northern California to 115 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia has collapsed from overfishing and from poaching that 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: ultimately escalated, particularly in South Africa, into pillaging. They just 117 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: raped and pillaged all the reefs until the reefs were 118 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: bare of abalone, all shell fish. And once that happens, 119 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: there is no breeding stock at all. It cannot breed 120 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: up again. It cannot replace itself because all the breeding 121 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: stock is gone. The only way to replenish it would 122 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: be to introduce stock from somewhere else and try and 123 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: graft it onto. 124 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: Those reefs, which is. 125 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: Probably not going to happen, so once gone, it's gone 126 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: for life. 127 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 2: Really pretty well. 128 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: Now at this point in Victoria's history, it would seem 129 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: that our abalone industry, and that's what it is, is 130 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: teetering between poaching which has gone on for decades, some 131 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: sort of poaching, and the sort of free range pillaging 132 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: that could destroy it. 133 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: We're probably at. 134 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: A tipping point in our history, and there's a couple 135 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: of reasons for that. The thing that's tipping us over 136 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: the edge is this willingness for the government to run 137 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: the risk of not policing it properly. The signs that 138 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: this is happening increasingly are all around us now. One 139 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: of my colleagues here at the Herald's son is a surfer, 140 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: and he tells me that he and his friends, and 141 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: he and his son, they go surfing in remote, out 142 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: of the way spots. One of the remote spots they 143 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: go to is a way around the coast on South Gippsland, 144 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: and it's hard to get to this particular place, as 145 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: he says, one hundred meter cliff and to get down 146 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: to the waves below at this very dangerous stretch of 147 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: water which can have good waves, which so it attracts 148 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: some surface not many. He said, You've got to slip 149 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: and slide down this very rough, dangerous track, down down 150 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: down through the rocky slopes and the shale and the 151 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: bush that sticks into you and all the rest of it. 152 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: And when you get down to the bottom, if the 153 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: conditions are suitable, you can get a good surf there. 154 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: But not a lot of people do this because you know, 155 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: you've got to climb back out again and so on. 156 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: And he said, the fascinating thing about this place, though, 157 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: is that around out of sight, pretty well out of sight, 158 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: there's a little hut being built of driftwood and crap. 159 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: Is the way this gorib driftwood and crap. So it's 160 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: a bit of brush and a bit of a few 161 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: rocks and driftwood, and this little shelter, crude little shelter 162 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: sort of blends into the environment. It's hard to see. 163 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: And inside it, he says, is a sauceman sitting over 164 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: a little campfire, and a few odds and means that 165 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: would indicate that somebody camps in that hut for several 166 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: hours and or overnight. And he said clearly what it 167 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: is is ab poaches. They're they're waiting for the tides 168 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: to turn from one tide to the next so that 169 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: they can go out duck diving for abs, you know, 170 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: maybe one hundred meters out or whatever it is. Because 171 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: because it's such a dangerous stretch of water and so inaccessible, 172 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: the abs there have had a chance to breed up, 173 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: and so it's a relatively rich reef for these poaches 174 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: to pillage. And he said, clearly that's what they're up to, 175 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: and he said the last thing he would want to 176 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: do would be to catch them at it, or to 177 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: try and discourage them from doing it, because they will 178 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: be armed with knives. And there's two things about ab poaches. 179 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: One is they want to avoid the attention of witnesses, 180 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: and if they can't do that, the other thing they 181 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: might want to do is to intimidate witnesses. Now, these 182 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: ab poaches, they're in a dangerous game. I've took to 183 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: some of these poaches over the years that they're sort 184 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: of highly organized, quite professional poaches. One of them, a 185 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: fellow in Tasmania, told me that the scariest thing that 186 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: ever happened to him was that he was underwater, and 187 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: he went into like a cave thing, a hole in 188 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: the rock underwater, and it was full of big fat 189 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: abaloni and he thought, how good's this. And he's in 190 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: there with his ab knife they call it. It's like 191 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: a long squared lever knife. And he's leaving abs off 192 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: and jamming him into his net bag and counting each 193 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: one's a fifty dollar note or whatever it is. And 194 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: suddenly he senses that it's gone darker, the water's darker, 195 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: and something brushes against him. He turns around and the 196 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: entrance to this hole. He's just in a hole. It's 197 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: only you know, big enough for him to get into. 198 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: It's only maybe a meat up high and a meter wide. 199 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: The whole entrance is covered by a giant octopus. And 200 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: he thought, oh no, this is where the giant octopus 201 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: lives in this hole, and I'm in its way. And 202 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: he was terrified. He said it was worse than being 203 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: near a shark. And he said the tentacles were enormously 204 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: long and very powerful, and in the end he had 205 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: to hack his way out using his knife. He had 206 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: to cut one of the tentacles to get past this 207 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: giant octopus. And I found that to be the most 208 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: not merish scenario you could think of. And he told 209 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: me other stories about his adventures as an abaloni diver. 210 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: I think early doors he might have been a legal 211 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: abalone diver, and then at some point he had a 212 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: disagreement with the authorities and he kept doing it without 213 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: a license, and someone but he and another guy who 214 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: was a big diver in Tasmania, they loaded a real 215 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: small boat speedboat overloaded. He said, we had far too many. 216 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: We'd run across a big reef and we've got a 217 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: heap of abaloni and we were well down in the 218 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: water because of the weight of them. And we're speeding 219 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: back towards the. 220 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: I think it's up. 221 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: And he's strawn up on that northwest coast of Tasmania 222 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: and it's very lonely and there's not many people around, 223 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: and the weather's tough and the water is tough, he said, 224 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: we're speeding back and it's relatively dark, I think, and 225 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: they hit a thing called I think it's called the 226 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: needle or the pinnacle or something. It comes out of 227 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: the water a piece of rock and they've hit it 228 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: and they've smashed their boat into a thousand pieces and 229 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: he said they were both plunged deep into the water. 230 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: Both these divers. 231 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: Their boat's gone, it's finished, and there's all this wreckage 232 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: around them. He said, we both went down, down, down, 233 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: And he said that he can measure how deep you're 234 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: going because he's a diver by the darkness of the water. 235 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: And he said it, you know, twenty feet it's this color, 236 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: and thirty feet it's darker. 237 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 2: And so on. 238 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: He said, we both ended up down so deep in 239 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: this black water and at the limit of our lungs. 240 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: They were down there for minutes, like two or three 241 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: minutes or more, and they were good divers who could 242 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: take a big breath. And he said, if we hadn't 243 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: had on our fins or flippers, if we had not 244 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: had our buoyant flippers on, we. 245 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: Probably both would have died. 246 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: Because he said, we had our boyant flippers on and 247 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: that helped lift us to the surface in time, and 248 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: then helped us to stay afloat to get into shore. 249 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: And the shore was a long long way, and he said, 250 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: we swam around there and we found floating on the 251 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: water some remnants of the boat, and one bit of 252 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: it was a foam bench seat from the boat, you know, 253 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: just like a cushion, and it was all smashed up. 254 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: But they were abled us, i think, sort of tear 255 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: it in half, and they had a bit each or 256 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: something and they used those to kick their way into shore. 257 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: It was miles they had to go miles, and they 258 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: were scared, and they were cold, and they were hungry. 259 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: It was all bad. And he said, ultimately we got 260 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: in and we were washed onto this empty beach, and 261 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: we were so exhausted that we both just lay on 262 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: the sand and we actually fell into this sort of 263 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: deep sleep. And he said we were woken by cattle 264 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: walking up to somebody's cows that was wandering up and 265 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: down the coast as they might in Tasmania. And he said, 266 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: these cows came up and were sort of rubbing their 267 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: noses on us to see what we were, to see 268 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: if they were edible, these strange black things lying on 269 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: the beach. And it was the two ab divers, and 270 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: he said that was the most astonishing adventure to s 271 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: And those are the sort of stories that these ab 272 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: poaches will tell you if they've been out in Bass 273 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: Strait doing this stuff for a number of years. Of course, 274 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: one of the most famous of them. He's a fellow 275 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: called cam Strawn, and cam Strawn briefly is probably the 276 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: most notorious ab poacher in the English speaking world. He, 277 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: like the late Barry Humphreys, is a graduate of Melbourne 278 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: Grammar School. He could be Melbourn Grammar School's greatest ever villain. 279 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: And his father was a spitfire pilot in World War 280 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: Two who later had a big boat that he used 281 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: to drive around between Victoria and Tasmania. His father used 282 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: to dive for abaloni. He was a very fearless man 283 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: because he'd flown spitfires in the war and didn't really 284 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: care much about the law or protocol or anything else. 285 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: And Cam young Cam learned to poach abaloney at his 286 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: father's knee, and Cam became an abalone poacher diver, and 287 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: he became an expert boat builder. He would build beautiful hulls, 288 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: these long, thin like semi racing holes that were fast 289 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: boats but also seaworthy, and people prize them very highly. 290 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: And among the people that prized them highly, it's the 291 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: Tasmanian water Police, because they've arrested cam Strawn so many 292 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: times that they would confiscate his boats from him, which 293 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: they can under the law, and they would equip themselves 294 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: with his boats, so that next time they chased him, 295 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: they would be using his boat to chase him. So 296 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: he would have to build one that's a bit faster 297 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: and a bit bigger motor in order to stay one 298 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: step ahead of them. And in fact, there was one 299 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: notorious chase across bas Strait which is known as the 300 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: Big Chase, where they had police helicopters, boats, they had 301 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: I think a navy boat or something, and they're all 302 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: chasing cam Strawn. And somebody said later, well, you can't 303 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: really admire him, but that is the finest feat of 304 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: seamanship I've ever seen him, staying ahead of us and 305 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: racing through those sort of seas in that sort of boat. 306 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: It's just astonishing. What's the point of telling us about 307 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: camp cam Strawn has brought up teens of thousands of 308 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: abalone over decades. He sold those four millions of dollars 309 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: on the black market. Mostly he was out deep in 310 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: Bastrada around little islands and things that you know, they're 311 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: out beyond Flinder's Island, beyond King Island and so on. 312 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: So he wasn't denuding the Victorian shoreline per se, there 313 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: is that about it. However, he was breaking the law, 314 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: and he used to break the law a lot, and 315 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: in fact he was arrested I think ninety nine times, 316 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: and apart from having all his geared confiscated and paying 317 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: massive fines, he did end up going to jail. 318 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: He was in. 319 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: Jail in Victoria, at the Fulham Jail near Sale at 320 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: the same time as our old friend the late Andrew Fraser, 321 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: who used to call him the Captain. Cam Strawn in 322 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: jail was known as the Captain because he was the boatman. 323 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: Cam Strawn, without doubt was present at the death of 324 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: one of his young deckhands. This young man died of 325 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: a brain hemorrhage. Now this is probably caused by coming 326 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: up too fast from deep water, because these guys dive 327 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: with heavy stuff on, so they go down to depth 328 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: and they have these air pumps with lines all the 329 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: way down so they can breathe down deep and if 330 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: they're young and inexperienced, sometimes they come up too fast 331 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: and this young bloke had done this. He had a 332 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: brain hemorrhage and he died and cam brought him into 333 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: Port welsh Pool, which is South Gippsland, and he was 334 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: frightened that he would be pulled up by the police 335 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: and that he'd be charged with manslaughter for this young 336 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: fellow being dead. And he put him in the boat 337 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: on the tiler, the boats on the boat trailer, put 338 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: him on the boat and covered the boat over and 339 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: then he drove to a hospital in South Gippsland, like 340 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: curram Borough or land Gath at one of those places, 341 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: and produced this young bloke. And there was no hope 342 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: for him. Of course, he was dead on arrival. But 343 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: that is the sort of risk that the poaches will take. 344 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: One of the officers I've spoken to in the past 345 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: he had personally saved poaches who were poaching in you know, 346 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: relatively close to shore, get into trouble with the ocean 347 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: and waves and so on. Each swum out and saved 348 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: more than one person. The poaches had rammed a boat 349 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: a little bit like that Tasmanian story. 350 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: I just said. 351 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: A couple of them hit the Pope's Eye. I think 352 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: it's called out near the rip near the heads of 353 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: Port Philip Bay. They hit it at full speed and 354 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: I think it crippled one of them. It could have 355 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: killed them, and I think one ended up very badly hurt. 356 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: This is the danger those guys face. And they do 357 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: it for agreed and they do it for money. But 358 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: it also tells you that if they're willing to take 359 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: those risks personally, some of them are going to be 360 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: willing to hurt other people as well, because they won't 361 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: want to be caught, they won't want to be locked up, 362 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: they won't want to lose their boats or their income. 363 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: And so this whole black market poaching business is bad 364 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: for everyone because it creates a class of criminal and. 365 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 2: It is directly. 366 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: Similar to the growth of the tobacco trade. The government 367 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: imposes big excise taxes on tobacco products. Therefore the prices 368 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: go up in the legitimate market. Therefore there's a chance 369 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: for organized crime. So because the government intervention, tobacco prices rise, 370 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: and it creates a whole class of criminal who then 371 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: starts up these cheap tobacco shops. And then they start 372 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: standing over each other, and then they start fire bombing 373 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: each other, and ultimately we've got a situation where innocent 374 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: people are already being hurt by these fire bombings. We've 375 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: had a situation where firebombers are paid to go and 376 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: burn places down. And just recently this year we've had 377 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: a young woman burnt to death in the inner Western 378 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: suburbs for no good reason at all, only because fire 379 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: bombers were sent to burn down X house, they got 380 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: the wrong house and they burnt to death an innocent 381 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: young woman. This is a class of crime and of 382 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: criminal that the government has created through badly thought out policies. 383 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: And the point of that is that the government, through 384 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: a sin of omission, has effectively given crooks permission to 385 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: go out and to go out and poach abalone, all. 386 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: The other shellfish species that. 387 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: They can find a market for and fish because it 388 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: is not enough officers to police it. That is what's 389 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: going to happen, and the result will inevitably be a 390 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 1: new class of krim. They will flock to it, and 391 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: they already are. We've got Biki gangs involved in it. 392 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: We've already got a scenario on the south coast of 393 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: New South Wales and we've mentioned that on this podcast before, 394 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: where there's at least a two hundred kilometers of New 395 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: South Wales coastline from just south of Sydney right down 396 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: towards the Victorian border. That is denuded of shellfish of abalone. Specifically, 397 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: there are whole reefs that are now bare because the 398 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: poaches have been allowed to just pillage it and to 399 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: take undersigh abaloni. Abaloni needs about seven years to grow 400 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: to a stage where it's big enough to reproduce. Now, 401 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: if you let it do that, it will reproduce. And 402 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: if you only take one in ten of the adult 403 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: size abalone, it's not a problem. They will reproduce ad 404 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: nauseum forever. It's not a problem. If it took two 405 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: of the adults out of ten, maybe you'd start to 406 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: cramp its style a little bit. If you take more 407 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: than that, you know it's a diminishing return. If you 408 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: take everything, including the young ones, you will wipe it 409 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: out in a matter of a few seasons. It'll just 410 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: be gone. Because if you take all the little ones, 411 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: they don't grow into big ones and they don't reproduce, 412 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: and that is the end of that. And the problem 413 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: with this mob out of the south coast of New 414 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: South Wales is they call them the Mogo mob. They 415 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: are spreading further and further down the coast into Victoria 416 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: and in January this year, this is six months ago 417 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: when we still had enough fisheries offices in Victoria to 418 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: police the place they caught the mogo mob at wing 419 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: and Inlet. Now wing and Inlet is much towards Melbourne 420 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: from Malicuta, so it's well into the Victorian waters. WinGen 421 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: Inlet is roughly between Malicuta and all Boss, let's say. 422 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: And the authorities discovered this mob. They had hundreds and 423 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: hundreds of abloni, many of them under sized, and this 424 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: mob have moved down out of New South Wales into 425 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: Victorian waters because there's still some wild abalone in Victorian waters, 426 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: because our fisheries and our police have gone to some 427 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: lengths to protect our waters from poaching, but now it 428 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: doesn't look as if that's going to happen. So now 429 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: the go mob out of southern New South Wales from 430 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: around Bateman's Bay, but they spread it north and south. 431 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: They will probably have open slather and they don't get 432 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: prosecuted effectively in the courts of New South Wales because 433 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: they claim that it's an indigenous. 434 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: Right to cultural fishing. 435 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: The fact that they're taking undersized abaloni doesn't seem to 436 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: worry them or worry the judiciary doesn't seem to worry 437 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: the magistrates either, but it will destroy the fishery in 438 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: a matter of a handful of years. And meanwhile, and 439 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: he's no doubt about this, they are selling to organized 440 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: crime groups, many of them Asian triad groups, who take 441 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: that abalone, dry it in illegal illicit factories and sheds, 442 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: and they send it off shore, exported offshore, which is 443 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: apparently relatively easy to do because of a glitch in 444 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: export rules, and they are able to swap that for 445 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: other contraband that comes in, such as drugs. So isn't 446 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: that a good idea? Our government wipes out fisheries officers 447 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: and that promotes poaching, and that promotes extinction, and it 448 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: also before the extinction, will promote the importation of more 449 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: drugs that do more damage to the very communities that 450 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: say they want the right to take all the abaloney 451 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: that they can get. Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes 452 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: is a Sunday Herald Sun production for True Crime Australia. 453 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, 454 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: go to Heraldsun dot com dot au, forward slash andrew 455 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: rule one word. 456 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: For advertising inquiries, go to news. 457 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: Podcasts sold at news dot com, dot com you that 458 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: is all one word news. 459 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: Podcasts sold And if 460 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: You want further information about this episode, links are in 461 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: the description.