WEBVTT - Read This: Thank God for Rick Morton 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.960 Hey there, it's Ruby Jones and I'm back to introduce 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.320 another episode of Read This, Schwartz Media's books podcast, hosted 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.920 by Editor of the Monthly Michael Williams. It features conversations 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.320 with some of our most talented writers. In this episode, 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.160 we're going to hear from our very own Rick Morton, 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.440 the Saturday Paper seenior reporter, won a Walkley Award for 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.079 his seven AM special series about Robodet. He covers the 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.280 scandal and its effects in his new book Meanstreak. As always, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.920 I'm joined by host Michael Williams to tell me a 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:32.560 little bit more about the episodes. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.519 Hi Michael, Hi Ruby. 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.040 So Michael, we've covered the robodette scheme and it's devastating 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.040 consequences on seven Am extensively, including in that special series 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.120 with Rick. But for anyone who might need a bit 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.640 of a reminder about what happened, can you tell me 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:51.519 about the scandal? 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.800 Yeah, Roby, it does feel a bit like explaining Rick 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.320 Morton Robotette to a seven AM audience is like explaining. 0:00:58.880 --> 0:00:59.840 Water to a fish. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.040 But for those who missed it entirely, I'm going to 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.640 give the briefest of summaries. It was back in twenty 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.600 sixteen and the coalition government used an automated system that 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:14.760 was nicknamed robodad to ostensibly recover overpaid welfare payments from people. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.720 And the program relied on this algorithm that would match 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.600 data from the ATO with income reporting from welfare recipients. 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.200 But the crucial bit is that it relied on income averaging. 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.160 It was a process that lawyers had already flagged concerns 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.160 with and it was neither fair nor accurate. The maths 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.320 was bogus, the morality behind it was bogus. The legal 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.360 advice said it wouldn't work, and despite this, it became 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.640 the basis of the ways in which they tried to 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.080 get money back from deeply vulnerable people. It was a 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.280 shit show, not to put too fine a point on it, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:51.320 and Rick has captured that beautifully in his book Mainstream. 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:56.280 And writing a book is notoriously challenging for journalists who 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.320 tend to be used to daily or weekly deadlines. So 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.919 what is it about mainStreet that you think really sets 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:05.800 it apart from other books like this? 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.919 Yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question. Is are 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:10.960 you writing a book for people who have been covering 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.840 the journalism as it goes along, So the book ends 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.640 up being a kind of summary and a long view 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.000 reaching conclusions, or are you writing it for the people who, 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:22.720 when it was coming in a kind of day to 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.480 day newsy basis couldn't quite absorb it. Need the kind 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.040 of refresher in the back to basics. And what Rick 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.560 does so well is navigate those two things. You know, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.640 this is a story that, on the one hand, is 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:39.040 incredibly technical. It requires understanding of maths and the minutia 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.320 of welfare policy. But it's also a deeply human story. 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.880 It's about understanding the consequences when vulnerable people have taken 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.320 advantage of when they're demonized, and when shame is weaponized 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:54.160 against the Australian public by its own government. And Rick 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.600 manages to do all those things at once while at 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.880 the same time being funny, engaging, entertaining. It's a terrific 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.480 read and I was really excited to talk to. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:03.720 Him about it. 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.440 Sounds like Rick Morton at his finest coming up in 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.920 just a moment. Thank god for Rick Morton. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.880 I sat down with Rick at Canberra Writers' Festival last 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:27.840 month to discuss meanstrec I suspect I'm not alone in 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.480 this room in that many times over the past few years, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.680 in any given week, I find myself uttering the words 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.240 thank God for Rick Morton. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:46.560 That's yeah. Let's face it. 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.840 There are so few people in public life, in the 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.680 cultural and intellectual life of this country about whom we 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.160 feel that kind of trust, And the conversation today is 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.320 going to be no small part about trust, about failures 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.040 of it, about failures of people in public life and 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.640 their idea of what they owe to one another, what 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:08.000 we all owe to one another. Mainstreak is the culmination 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.040 of years of work. It's the culmination of at times 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.920 I'm sure painful work. But I wanted to kick off 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.440 by asking you to reflect on our attitude towards welfare 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.640 recipients in this country more generally, not just in the 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.040 context of this as a society, as a culture, how 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.280 do we regard those who require assistance? 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.240 Not well? Is breaking news? Not well at all? 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:36.320 You know. I grew up in Queensland and my mum 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.880 was on the single parent pension and I noticed, particularly 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.000 even within welfare groups, there is a lot of that 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.839 kind of They've imbibed the cultural narrative, which is that 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.960 there are dull bludges and lazy people on welfare out there, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:49.840 and if you're on welfare and it's not you, it 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:51.479 must be someone else. And so there's a lot of 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.320 that kind of cross finger pointing. And of course the 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.120 further up you go, particularly into the middle classes, it's 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.520 all people talk about because they're paying tax. Session on 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.200 robodet this week, and a guy came up to me 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:03.960 at the end and he said how many people still 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.400 owed money? And then he started talking to me about 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:07.880 how he paid a lot of taxes as a small 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.359 business owner. Even when he bought his Mercedes, he had 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.640 to pay a lot of tax on it. And I 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:14.760 felt very sorry for him and all that he's been through. 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:17.720 But then I woke up from my comra and I 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:22.640 realized what an idiot he kind of embodied and embodies 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.320 that kind of theory that these people can't be getting 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.480 something for nothing, and we still do it with mutual obligations. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.279 You know, they must be forced to dance for their money, 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.479 to look for jobs that don't always exist, to stay 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.440 in jobs that might be harassing and bullying them. And 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.360 it's all because we can't handle the idea, and it's 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.240 not a new idea. Bertwind Russell was writing about this 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.240 a long time ago, that the poor can't have leisure, 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.400 they can't do nothing, because that's what rich people do, 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.960 and they spend it fighting, fucking, and feasting. So this 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.560 idea that people must be forced to perform their poverty 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.280 and be judged for it is not new, and it 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:01.200 is the reason. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:05.440 We have robot at really, so rather than have compassion 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.720 for other people who are struggling, rather than recognizing their 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.760 own struggle and looking to government to have a role 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.040 in it. Instead, there is this kind of embedded attitude 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.040 that says there's something shameful about needing help. The shame 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.280 is the kind of beating heart of the way we 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.480 regard welfare recipients. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.039 Shame is an important evolutionary function in the human psyche. 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.520 It's just that most of the people who should feel 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.080 shame don't, and it's always just everyone. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:35.479 Else that feels it. 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.000 It's like I look at a lot of people at 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:38.600 the top and I'm like, you could do with a 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.440 little bit more shame. And you see that kind of that, 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:43.719 you know, this idea that we vote against our own interests. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:45.240 It goes all the way up to the top. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.400 When you eventually see the people making decisions and they 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.000 still vote against what is right or in all of 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.279 our interests because they think that, you know, for example, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.520 just to use the National Anti Coruption Commission or you know, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.680 an accountability body where they will legislate something that doesn't 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.560 actually do anything because they might be the ones that 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.920 are in power one day, or might be the ones 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:05.359 doing something that is found to be corup. So we 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.440 don't want all these checks and balances, and so you know, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.520 the whole system is rife with it, I think, and 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:13.679 we're poorer for it. 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.640 I mean, I remember you wrote a piece for me 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.320 in the Monthly during the period of the Royal Commission, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.880 and when we're going back and forth talking about it, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.480 part of your kind of summation of the point you 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.440 wanted to make is this is the utterly shameless weaponizing 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.640 shame against others, that that's the dynamic. 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:34.160 Yeah. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.280 I was happy with that piece because it had I 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.560 was thinking about this idea for a long time anyway, 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.280 because you know, we saw some of the very most 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.760 senior people who came up with this idea and who 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:47.680 perpetuated this idea, which is just. 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:48.680 A reminder for those who don't know. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:53.360 I'm sure you do an algorithm that falsely attributed debts 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.640 to people, or falsely inflated the value of debts to 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.440 people that weren't there, or told them they owed more 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.040 than they actually did, based on a mathematical fiction that 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.720 many people knew was illegal from the very beginning. And 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.200 so you know, in propagating this, you look at them 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.080 and you see them trying to explain their behavior on 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:16.440 the stand. It's very hard to explain human foibles when 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.120 they're yours, but also when you're not willing to be 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.680 self reflective about it. And there was no one apart 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.080 from maybe Serena Wilson who got close as the Deputy 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.440 Secretary of DSS, close not fully there, who actually seemed 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.679 to be overly perturbed about what they did, as opposed 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.400 to the fact that they were now being called to 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.080 account for it. That's what injured a lot of people, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:38.680 not so much they felt bad. 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:38.920 Well. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.000 In fact, some of them wrote in after the Royal 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.080 Commission as their final statement saying, you know, we still 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.760 think Roba was a good idea which I think was 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:50.480 implemented badly, which is just insane to me. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.040 Whereas the truth of it is it's a monstrous idea 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:54.200 implemented badly. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:56.240 They were wrong twice. 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.960 The idea was faulty in every concept givable way, and 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.240 they implemented it in possibly the worst possible way by 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.840 not testing the computer properly, by ramping up to targets, 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.760 and literally by the time they turn the computer, you know, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.960 automated part of Robodet's a bit of a misnomer by 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.360 the time they turn that on in September twenty sixteen, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.040 because they wanted to get to these targets faster, you know, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.560 half a billion dollars and then a billion dollars. This 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.640 computer was all you could almost see it just spinning 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.200 out of control and flinging off bits of fucking metal 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.160 and code into the ceiling fan. And they're all going, oh, 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.080 don't know what happened. What happened was you didn't do 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.200 your homework because people were just whipping you and telling 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.760 you to produce this thing. And it's like it was 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.880 implemented badly. But the idea was horrendous. And when you 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.800 get those two things in concert, and people still look 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:45.200 back and go, I don't know where it all went 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:49.280 so wrong. I do just have to read some. 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:49.760 Of the evidence. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.120 I mean, the question with forever asked when things are 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:57.000 monstrous or fraught in public life is do we assume 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.280 conspiracy or do we assume incompetence? And I have to 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.840 confess that I would habitually assuming competence over conspiracy. That 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.280 my impulse is someone's bad at their job, Sun's asleep 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.800 at the wheel. But part of what's so horrifying reading 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.160 your reporting laid out in book form, this whole story 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.400 from Go to Woe, is that it's better understood as 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.280 conspiracy than it is as incompetence. It's better understood at 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:30.960 least as not necessarily an individual failure, but a broader 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:35.160 failure of compassion, of the empathy, of focus rather than execution. 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:36.400 I think you're right. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.080 I mean I always assuming competence based on personal experience, 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:44.599 if nothing else. You know, we are incredibly flawed individuals. 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.280 Robinet was a conspiracy, certainly according to the Royal Commission 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.720 at the beginning, it was born in conspiratorial kind of 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.679 you know, it was covered up. The new policy proposal 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.600 was changed to remove any reference to this new legal 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.640 advice they had you can't do this and DSS saying 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.200 you can't do this. It needs legislation, and so they 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.160 just decided to take out the words, which is like 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.880 taking off the dietary in takeing information on a meat 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.600 pie and pretending you can still lose weight like it 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.640 just they didn't change the policy or still a meat pie. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:17.679 So there's that. 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:22.280 But then you get that conspiracy relied on weaponizing laziness 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.559 and incompetence elsewhere, and so they worked in concert. And 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.960 then again you get a second kind of round of 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.560 this in twenty seventeen when the DSS people who realize 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.000 they might have made a few errors in allowing this 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.640 thing to get as far as it did. They didn't 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.600 come up with the idea, but they probably didn't fly 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.760 it hard enough or do their own checks and balances. 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.280 There's another conspiracy where they then seek to actively mislead 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.920 they come with with ombudsman by disappearing legal advice. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.640 First they try to hide the twenty fourteen advice. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.840 Then when they realized that DHS is given the executive 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.680 minute over that says there was probably advice kicking around, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.360 and the ombudsman comes back and says, I think you've 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:03.560 been withholding stuff DSS. Then concox twenty seventeen advice that 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.440 says something slightly different but also defensible, and gives that 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.160 to the ombardsman, but without the contextual information that was 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.480 asked to the lawyers, which would have given the ombardsmen 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.880 the exact information that they were asking the same question 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.400 both times and suddenly got to different answers. 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:18.600 How is that possible? 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.520 So you know, this thing was so bad that not 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.280 even the class action judge they didn't get all the 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.760 documents they needed, And even in his judgment he said, 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.560 you know, I'm inclined. When there's a toss up between 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.360 conspiracy or fuck up, you go with stuff up. 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:34.440 And we would never have got. 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:35.960 These answers were it not for the Royal Commission. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.800 I'm glad you mentioned the twenty fourteen statements because I 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.520 think maybe for our discussion today, it's worth going back 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.079 to that period and back to in particular the budget 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.560 that year and what it tells us about the political 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.880 environment at that time. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.199 It feels like a fever dream to remember back to 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.320 twenty fourteen, doesn't it. And in many respects I will 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.440 take Tony Abbit over Scott Morrison any day of the week. 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.760 If I had to choose, I would choose Tony Abbot. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:08.920 What about it in a bike race. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:16.640 Well, definitely, Scott Morrison. 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:21.640 I brought that up because Tony Abbott, you knew what 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.319 you were getting with Tony Abbit, except for the part 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.280 where he lied explicitly throughout his election campaign where he 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.080 said no cuts to this, no cuts to that, and 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.200 then once he got into government cut everything. And that 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.839 twenty fourteen budget was horrendous, and I write about it 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.200 in the book. I was in that budget lock up 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:37.960 and I remember one of my colleagues turned to my 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.679 editor and said, having looked at the policy where they 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.760 want to kick young people off the doll for six 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.880 months every year, and she turned to the editor she said, Clive, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:46.720 this is horrendous. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:47.600 People are going to die. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.760 And she was right, but just not about that policy, 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.040 because that policy was so bad that it couldn't even 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:53.720 get through the Senate. 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.280 That was the nice option. They had actually privately. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.680 Been trying to come up with ideas to kick people 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:03.000 off the dole permanently until they turned thirty, so like 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.080 no income support at all, and it was so bad 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.199 that Ericabets and Kevin Andrews killed it. Like they were 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.400 the ones who were like, They're like, Tony Abbot, have 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:15.679 a heart. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.400 Let's take a moment to pay our respects to those 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.680 great humanitarians. 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.960 It would never cease to amaze me that they were 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.240 the ones who were like, you've gone too far, mister rabbit. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.400 And so they killed it off behind the scenes, and 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.000 of course the Abbot government was embarrassed it got stuck 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.720 in the Senate. And then he also, you'll remember, ran 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.200 on a regulatory agenda and they had those stupid, stupid 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:45.480 red tape repeal reduction days, just like, oh, everyone burn 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.480 a rule, everyone burn a rule. It's like a pagan 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.400 equinox festival. The least Catholic thing about him was this 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.760 idea that you could have a spiritual experience around cutting 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:59.000 rules and regulations. And because of those two things, there 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.480 was a new budget process rules that said you can't 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.000 have new spending without a saving, and a saving doesn't 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:05.920 count if it's likely to get stuck in the Senate 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.520 or if it needs legislation. So that is a reason 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.760 why when it does become obvious that Robodet needs legislation, 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.600 and there is legal advice in December twenty fourteen that 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.080 says that the new budgets underway already, if someone had 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.640 briefed that to Scott Morrison and didn't realize that at 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.280 the time, and then had to turn around and go 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.920 back to Scott Morrison and say, actually, that thing I 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:27.840 said that was going to save one point two billion 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.760 dollars needs legislation. I don't want to be that person. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.320 And the secondly, the people, the boffins that came up 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.840 with it in the compliance unit, literally piggybacked on the 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.520 back of the deregulatory agenda and they said, here is 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.640 a way that we can do something cool for us 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.280 in compliance, which is we've got to need to spend 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.400 some money to update our computer systems, but here's all 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.560 this amazing whiz bang stuff we can do as long 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.440 as we tell Tony Abbot that we're reducing rent tape. 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.440 And to do that, they were basically saying, we're going 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.760 to stop relying on small businesses to revite payslips when 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.520 we coercively ask them using our vast powers of government, 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:06.840 and we're just going to tell people to tell us 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.120 instead to go back and get their pay slips, and 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:10.400 if the business doesn't want to give it to them, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.880 it's not our problem. And so you've got these twin 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.200 kind of horrors merging to create the perfect storm for Robodette, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:17.480 and Robotette is born. 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.760 When we return, Rick explains how bureaucratic ineptitude revealed Robotette 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.280 to be the scandal the government was trying to hide. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:28.520 We'll be right back. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:43.080 The book opens with two particularly acute epigrams. The first 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:48.840 is from Australian saist writer Robert Skinner and says, imagine 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.360 having to prove for insurance purposes that your wife is 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.080 not a dolphin, and no matter how many photos of 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.240 her doing chin ups and playing video games with their 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.840 thumbs you provide, the insurance company keeps saying yes, But 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.480 why then did you visit SeaWorld. I'm keen to mention 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.600 that at this point because I don't know about any 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.000 of you, but the collective trauma of having to think 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.959 about these kind of failures in our name, of our 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.240 political system is pretty acute, and I know that for 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.800 Rick at this point it's profound. And the book is 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.240 against the odds Funny, it has to be said, because 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.320 the book does have an eye on the kind of 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:34.199 absurdity of self justification that is required to keep this 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:40.800 engine turning over at absolutely heartbreaking gut wrenching cost, but 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.000 the thing at the center of it, the bureaucratic self justification. 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.400 You almost have to laugh because there's no other possible response. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.000 It's a very literary book at sites Borges and Hella 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:58.520 and Kafka and Elma Fad, you know, all these kind 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.840 of great figures of aptitude. Are there single moments for 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.760 you when you were kind of putting it together as 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.159 a book where you just stopped in your tracks at 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.440 the sheer audacity of the stupidity. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.199 I mean, there are so many, but the things that 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:20.560 ended Robotat is the funniest example of bureaucratic inaptitude, I think. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.959 Because they've got federal court cases and I don't want 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.640 to skip ahead, but I'll do it. It's been going 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.600 for four and a half years, and the lawyers finally 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.560 find a perfect victim in Madeline Masterton, who's a young 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.000 woman who had a debt raised against her. She didn't 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.760 owe a single cent of it, and they needed a 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.240 perfect victim who didn't have some like you know, rough 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.000 edges or you know, owed a little bit of money. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.679 So she was perfect, and they took it to the 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.600 federal court and the Department of Human Services is like, ah, fuck, 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.199 what are we going to do? The thing that's been 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:50.920 running for four and a half years, we're pretty sure 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.800 is suspect. What we'll do is we'll get some for 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.200 the first time ever in the history of Robota in 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.040 March twenty nineteen. It started in twenty fifteen. For the 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.000 first time ever, they get actual external legal advice that 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.680 they don't leave in draft form from the Australian Government 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.719 solicitor that says, Medline Masterton's case and they've only had 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.919 a brief look at it is not hopeless, so we 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.480 need to find a way to get rid of the 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.400 case from court. And the way they go about doing 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.440 that is the funniest thing ever. They go to Madeline 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.680 Masterton and they say, pretty please, can you give us 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:32.359 your pacelets? And her lawyer says, are you for real? 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.479 You have raised four and a half thousand dollars against 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.240 my client and you are now saying through court could 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:44.040 we please have the evidence for it? You are insane? 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.720 And the department says, ah, damn, all right, we'll get 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.280 rid of that. So they move on to option two. 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:52.879 Option two is to devise a new policy for the 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.560 first time ever, the very first time, this policy has 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.560 ever been used. Is to go back through the lawyer's 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.760 affidavits for Maline Masterton and where the lawyer says, not 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.240 Madalin masters And the lawyer says, I have seen Madeline 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.720 Masterton has been updating sendaling about her income over the years, 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.000 and this is what Madeline Masterton tells. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:11.439 Me she earned. 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.199 And the department says, they're fair enough, We'll accept it. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.800 We believe that now they had this information, but now 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.800 we believe it zero the debt got rid of it. Hilarious. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.320 It wouldn't be funny if it succeeded forever, but it's 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.679 hilarious because a few months later, Diana Romato comes along 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.199 and she's exactly the same as Madeline Marterton. They try 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:32.920 and get rid of her debt, and they do. They 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.360 zero it by using pretty much the same circumstances, except 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.000 that Marto's debt was raised after twenty eighteen, when the government, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.720 in its infinite wisdom, decided to expand the general interest 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:48.600 charge to social security debts. And according to commwealth law 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:50.560