1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Let's talk nuclear and there's an argument put forward and 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: had Angus Taylor on last week talking energy and try 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: to put to him what this will cost in terms 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: of building and at the moment the coalition not releasing 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: their costs for nuclear power across Australia the seven power 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: plants they want to build. But the evidence from around 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: the world where they have gone nuclear. In Finland's perhaps 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: a recent example power prices through introducing baseload to stabilize 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: renewables has drastically brought down the cost of energy in 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: terms of your bills, and we'd all welcome that, but somehow, 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: somewhere we're still going to have to pay for building 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: seven nuclear plants if they go ahead. Audi eighty Patterson, 13 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: former CEO Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization on the line, eighty. 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: Good mining, good morning, nice to talk to you. 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: Yes it is again. Now tell me the argument for 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: nuclear will bring downpower bills. That's your expectation. 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: Well, it's the experience of everybody who's built it. And 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: you just gave the example of Finland where the plants 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: was took too long and it was expensive, but the 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: price of electricity consumers went down to thirty percent. That's 21 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: not by thirty percent, but two thirty percent of the 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: cost before. Now there's a good reason for that. We 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: don't send everybody to work on bicycles. That would be 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: really cheap. We wouldn't have to spend so much keeping 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: the roads in good shape because we'd have lighter vehicles. 26 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: Everybody could buy them themselves, like we have panels on 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: the roof, And it would be a really cheap way 28 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: to run our cities, except that commerce would collapse because 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: the expensive rail systems and roads that we have require 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: a lot of maintenance in signs. So basically the analogy 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: is wrong. To get to the plans that the government has, 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: will have to double the size of the grid. Now 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: the grid is about forty percent of the cost of electricity, 34 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 2: so we're going to have to double that. And then 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: that people don't realize it. But wind only blows two 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: days out of five on average. What happens on the 37 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: other three days the sun goes down at night, What 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: happens at night, What happens to emergency rooms, What happens 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: to pumping sewage and sending water to your house, what 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: happens to emergency services? So simply the plan of the 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: government is not just for renewables, but it's doing something 42 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: that nobody else in the world is trying to do. 43 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: Nobody else without hydro is trying to build an eighty 44 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: percent grid with intermittent wind and sun goes down at night, 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: solar panels, and so this experiment is not just an 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: experiment with all of our lives, but it's an experiment 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: that will not work. We know as engineers and as 48 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: people who have studied this around the world that it'll 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: be very, very expensive, and it basically won't work. Everybody 50 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: who's tried it has got more expensive electricity. Germany is 51 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: a good example. They may lose BMW because BMW won't 52 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: be able to effectively manage to make motor cars in 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: Bavaria anymore. 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: How ironic, given that they're switching to evs. 55 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: Well, evs are even more expensive to make, and Germany's 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: electricity is about on any normal day of the week 57 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: is about twice as much as France. France is about 58 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: seventy five nuclear Recently, the head of the French utilities 59 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: said that the new plants he wants to build in 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: France he wants to build in six years. I think 61 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: he'll take a bit longer. I think you might take ten. 62 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: But if we had started to build nuclear when I 63 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: came to Australia about twelve years ago, we would probably 64 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: be switching on the first line now or getting ready to. 65 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: And so the idea that nuclear takes twenty to thirty 66 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: years to build, it's just not true. The United Arab 67 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: Emirates from the start of its program to the first 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: electricity on the grid was twelve years. They've got a 69 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: world class regulator, they used the best skills in the world, 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: and they've built South Korean plants. So the general narrative 71 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: is that just because something is expensive to build doesn't 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: mean to say it's expensive for the people who utilize 73 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: the asset. I mean, we know that the cost of 74 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: the plant is on the balance sheet, but the cost 75 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 2: of running the plant is on the income statement, And 76 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: the cost of running a nuclear plant compared to all 77 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: of our panels and wind and extra new grids and 78 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: sign is a tiny fraction of what we're paying now. 79 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: So given so, give us a plant is disastrous. 80 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: Give us a comparison. A nuclear power plant will last 81 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: how long compared to a wind farm or a solar 82 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: panel farm? 83 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: So basically, solar panels are sort of guaranteed for about 84 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty years. They might they might last thirty 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: Solar farms are sort of guaranteed for twenty but they 86 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: start failing a little bit earlier than that. On average 87 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: around the world, maybe twenty five years. Solar plants that 88 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: are being commissioned today will operate for eighty years. 89 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: Nuclear plants, you make nuclear plants eighty eighty Yeah, okay, 90 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,559 Speaker 1: so nuclear eight eighty years, no wind, and solar about twenty. 91 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: That's from the balance seat. That's why you've got low 92 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: cost electricity, so it pays. You'll build the solar panels 93 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: three times and you'll build the wind turbines four times 94 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 2: before you get to the life of the nuclear plant. 95 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: So long term it makes sense, obviously, it makes sense. 96 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: And in the short term, I mean, you know, to 97 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: double all the size of the grid and pretend that 98 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: electricity is going to get cheaper is an act of madness. 99 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: You can imagine all of those big new grids ripping 100 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: through the backyards of rural and regional Australia. You can 101 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: imagine the damage to the ecology and the environment. I mean, 102 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: we already know about the disaster of wind turbines killing birds, 103 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: bats and insects. It's changing the ecology in Queensland, for example, 104 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: it's already demonstrated the unfortunate animals that dwell on the 105 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: ground below wind turbines get infrasound into their dwellings. So 106 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: you know, turbines and panels are ecologically disastrous compared to 107 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: nuclear which is on a small footprint, and often nuclear 108 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: power plants have sort of wilderness environments and and animal 109 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: rescue places around them because you have to have a 110 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: little bit of an exclusion zone. But that's tiny compared 111 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: to the disaster impact of putting wind turbines across the 112 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: ridges of Australia. 113 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: Are there any figures in Australian dollars as to what 114 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: it would cost to put Peter Dutton's plan in operation? Though, 115 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 1: I mean it's we still need to know how much 116 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: a nuclear power plant will cost, because we'll be paying 117 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: for it somehow or other. If we're not for not 118 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: picking it up in our bills, we've got to pay 119 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: for it through taxes. 120 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: Well, not necessarily because if you if you strike a 121 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: deal like they have in many countries and forty one 122 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: countries around the world are currently building nuclear power plants. 123 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: You can have public private partnerships. For example, we understand 124 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: these very well. We're using international public private partnerships to 125 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: build our submarines which will which will basically have nuclear 126 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: power in the back of them. Are There are many 127 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: structures that governments use to amortize the cost to citizens 128 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: directly of these of these infrastructures. We use very similar 129 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: systems to build big roads and tunnels. You know, basically 130 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: most of a nuclear power plant is concrete, just like 131 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: the roads that we build, and we kind of absorbed 132 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: the cost of that either in tolls or in our 133 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: general background taxation. My view is, from my understanding of 134 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: the financing arrangement and seeing what is going on around 135 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: the world, is the cheapest way for the average citizen 136 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 2: to get electricity on the capital side is nuclear, and 137 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: the cheapest way to make it sustainable through time and 138 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 2: the pocket of the average consumer is nucare. There is 139 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: no doubt a bit about it. But what you're repeating 140 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: back to me is the narrative, the scary but false 141 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: narrative that is used by many politicians to tell us 142 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: why we shouldn't have nuclear But then why are forty 143 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: one other countries building nuclear and many of those don't 144 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: have the kind of balue sheet that Australia has, and 145 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: they're doing it because it makes great sense. The energy 146 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: that you get is reliable. It's not available two days 147 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: a week like wind or it's available during the night 148 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: when when the sun goes down. And in fact, we 149 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: are building a grid. The AEMO plan, my view, does 150 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: not stand the test of engineering resilience in the rigor, 151 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: and the peer reviewed scientific literature agrees with me. So 152 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: scientists and engineers who study this have shown that nuclear 153 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: grids are the lowest cost to consumers, they the lowest 154 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: carbon to consumers, and they're the most reliable for consumers. 155 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: This is this is incontrovertible. This is this is published 156 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: science and engineering research. The government refuses to discuss it, 157 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: accept it. And we've almost in Australia got a cult 158 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: where we believe things that are simply not true. And 159 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: that's that's not going to be good for us. The 160 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: only narrative lift the bands. Let lift the bands at 161 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: federal level, lift the bands at the state level, and 162 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: let's see what the market says. And if the market 163 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: says it's too expensive, then it will be. At the 164 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: moment there isn't a Yukia company in the world that 165 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: is visiting Australia anymore. We are a pariah state because 166 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: they've been here many times, they've talked to people in government. 167 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: The current government just doesn't get it, reinforced by the Greens, 168 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 2: and so we're you know, we're driving down a very 169 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: long tunnel and there's no light at the end of 170 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: that tunnel. 171 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that. The only narrative, though, I'd 172 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: like to find out, is how much it'll cost, and 173 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: I can't get a figure from anyone. 174 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: So the very simple thing is it won't cost taxpayers 175 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: more money than they paying now. It will cost less. 176 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: It'll be on the balance sheet of government. It'll be 177 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: no different to building roads. It is a capital expenditure 178 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: and it is it is probably balance When you take 179 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: the full integrated cost of wind and renewals, it will 180 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: be cheaper than wind renewables because wind and renewables they 181 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: don't include the cost of the new grid. In fact, 182 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: the one estimate I have seen is that the cost 183 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: of the new grid is about the same magnitude as 184 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: the cost of a nuclear power program. That wouldn't need 185 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: a new grid, so that's a reasonable estimate. Don't big 186 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: new grid, build nuclear. 187 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: Instead ATY Patterson, thank you for your time. Yep from 188 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: a CEO, Australian Nuclear Science and Technology organization. So there's 189 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: a thing or two about nuclear power.