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Speaker 1: I get a team with Bloody rolling. We started the

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Speaker 1: good stuff before we press the go button. So fuck it.

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Speaker 1: I've just put the pause button on Ben Sury, Tiffany

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Speaker 1: and called Craig Ethney half of the You Project. We're

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Speaker 1: just talking, Ben Surry, welcome officially to the typ Thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining.

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Speaker 2: Us, thanks for having me, thanks for being hat champion.

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Speaker 1: Now we're just talking about your aversion to dogs, but

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Speaker 1: your love of cats and Tiff was a little bit upset.

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Speaker 1: Let's unpack that. What's she suggested you might be a sociopath.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear your defense.

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Speaker 2: I have a very clear defense to go straight to

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Speaker 2: my backstory. I grew up on a farm in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand and dogs are working animals, so you don't play

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Speaker 2: with that. In fact, you're not even allowed to play

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Speaker 2: with them, otherwise you might ruin them and they can't

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Speaker 2: mustard the sheet properly. So you know, you guys can

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Speaker 2: come back at me with something now if you like.

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Speaker 2: But what do you go?

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Speaker 1: That's Tiff, what do you I can't see your dog

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Speaker 1: must doing anything other than the cat, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like your cat's more likely to muster your dog. So

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Speaker 1: your two animals apart from being cute, are fucking useless.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to I agree with you there, Craig.

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Speaker 2: I do look at the domestic dogs in Melbourne. I

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Speaker 2: think they are quite useless. They couldn't muster a sheep

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Speaker 2: or be of any use on a farm.

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Speaker 1: No, they couldn't muster for a fucking butterfly. Anyway, They

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Speaker 1: muster my emotions.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't that count. That's a bit of a fun that

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Speaker 2: does count.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't. They have definitely corralled you into the

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Speaker 1: top emotional paddock and they've got you stuck in the

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Speaker 1: corner like a fucking in an emotional prison, with the

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Speaker 1: keys being held by a fucking dog and a cat

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Speaker 1: being helped to ransom in your own place. Hey, beneficially,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. You're a busy man,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, we appreciate you taking the time.

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Speaker 2: That's an absolute pleasure to chat with you.

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Speaker 1: Now without me doing some boring monologue about how amazing

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Speaker 1: you are and all the shit you've done. Can you

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Speaker 1: give to seven people on in my audience who don't

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Speaker 1: know you. I'm suggesting the majority do that who don't

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Speaker 1: know you. Can you give us the self bio?

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Speaker 2: What do you.

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Speaker 1: You know, when people don't know you, which I'm sure

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Speaker 1: happens periodically, and they go, what do you do? What's

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Speaker 1: the answer to that?

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Speaker 2: I hate talking about myself in that way, but I

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Speaker 2: guess I'm a chef. I own a restaurant called Attica

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne. I live a very passionate life and I'm

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Speaker 2: into people and everything kind of I come from New

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Speaker 2: Zealand and I'm a dad friend trying not to fuck

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Speaker 2: anything up too much. That's kind of generally my my idea.

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Speaker 1: Well, you fucked it up with TIF straight out of

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Speaker 1: the gates, so you've got about now to repair that

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Speaker 1: damage relationship with B.

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Speaker 2: I'll try hard.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're an uh. I was going to

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Speaker 1: phrase say frustrated, but definitely not frustrated, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like you're an artist. Like I knew of you, but

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Speaker 1: didn't You and I had a brief chat the other

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Speaker 1: day for about thirty nine seconds, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: know each other a little bit. I knew about Attica,

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Speaker 1: I knew about you, but I didn't know you. But

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Speaker 1: the more I've been having to look at your stuff

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Speaker 1: and reading about you and listening to a bit recently,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're really just an artist who expresses

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Speaker 1: himself in different ways.

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Speaker 2: That's an interesting take that you get straight to that

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Speaker 2: there's a history of shit of sort of ridiculing chefs

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Speaker 2: that call themselves artists. So there's always that kind of

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Speaker 2: history in that part of our culture where I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of reluctant to call myself an artist. But certainly the

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Speaker 2: project of the restaurant is an art project. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not a it's not really like a business that

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Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense. It's fairfully independent. We work

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Speaker 2: with people for more many backgrounds, from artists to writers,

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Speaker 2: to musicians, to makers to growers, and it's just a

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Speaker 2: really fun project that's sort of full passion and where

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Speaker 2: we really get to expect express ourselves creatively in any

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Speaker 2: way we.

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Speaker 1: Want to m when you're growing up on that farm

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Speaker 1: with those dogs that you treated like bloody slaves. Sorry, Tiff,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to keep opening that wound. What did

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Speaker 1: you think you were going to do when you were

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Speaker 1: in inverted commas? Big?

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Speaker 2: When I was big? What do you mean, like like,

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Speaker 2: you know, when.

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Speaker 1: You're an actual when you were grown up?

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Speaker 2: What did you what did you what did you want

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Speaker 2: to do? Maybe Well, the only thing I ever wanted

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Speaker 2: to do from day dot, really from as young as

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Speaker 2: I can remember, and it even sort of predates my memory,

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Speaker 2: was to become a shift So that starts at h

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Speaker 2: five for me. And I'm absolutely certain about that. Why

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Speaker 2: I was so certain, I'm not entirely sure. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's definitely growing up around the love of cooking and

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Speaker 2: being so so close to primary ingredients and my mother

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Speaker 2: making food from our farm and from the land. But

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Speaker 2: there was no cooks in my family. It wasn't really

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Speaker 2: a thing in the early eighties. It's not like it

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Speaker 2: is now where people become famous and have large followings,

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Speaker 2: and it's just a completely different time. So I guess

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Speaker 2: my desire to become a shift this came from a

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Speaker 2: pure love of cooking.

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Speaker 1: And what is it like to I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: dumb question, but I'm genuinely curious to have to have

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Speaker 1: a business that's been called one of the top Well

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Speaker 1: is one you and I chat the other day about

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Speaker 1: how do you even evaluate that? But it is regarded

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Speaker 1: as one of the best restaurants or top fifty in

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Speaker 1: the world. I don't know how many fucking restaurants there are,

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Speaker 1: well but let's just go with a shitload. Does that

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Speaker 1: make you feel proud or uneasy or like, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that's a great achievement or a great accolade at the

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Speaker 1: very least, But how does that sit with you?

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Speaker 2: It's a very odd thing for me, because you know

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Speaker 2: that there's never been the reason for the work. You know,

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Speaker 2: like I said, the work is about being with an

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Speaker 2: incredible team of people and serving an amazing group of

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Speaker 2: customers and doing this thing with all of your heart

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Speaker 2: and mind really, and there's other stuff that kind of

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Speaker 2: comes along, these things that other people bestow upon you,

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Speaker 2: but also can kind of remove very easily as well.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit odd because I've been very careful, Craig

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Speaker 2: to sort of never attach an even my personal work

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Speaker 2: to these sorts of awards, and at different times I've

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Speaker 2: appreciated them, particularly in my early years. But you know,

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Speaker 2: you win something, if you let that go to your head,

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Speaker 2: it'll also destroy you. You know, if you think the

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Speaker 2: work's done and that there's effectively there's an awards ceremony,

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Speaker 2: you're anointed whatever you are, and then the next day

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Speaker 2: the work has to begin again. And so pretty early

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Speaker 2: on I learned that that wasn't the reason for it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how. It makes me feel just kind

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Speaker 2: of odd, Like like we discussed yesterday, you know, how

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Speaker 2: can you really say what the top fifty restaurants in

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Speaker 2: the world are, Like, that's not really possible, actually, and

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that that don't get the

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Speaker 2: attention that they should for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: I think it's quite I don't know if you did

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Speaker 1: that accidentally or intentionally or intuitively, but that that thing

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Speaker 1: not to attach your self worth or your identity to

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Speaker 1: the thing that you're good at, or like, you know,

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Speaker 1: to an award or a brand or a that's quite

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Speaker 1: smart because my experience is when people have their identity

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Speaker 1: intertwined with their accolades or their you know, the status

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Speaker 1: of their business or their career, at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: when that goes away, they're fucked because you know that

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Speaker 1: that thing that made them them that isn't there anymore,

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Speaker 1: and then they don't know who the fuck they are.

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Speaker 2: No, And I couldn't agree more or and it's something

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Speaker 2: to be so cautious of. I wrote a line recently

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Speaker 2: which I was proud of, which which which which says

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Speaker 2: most climbers are killed on the descent. And by that

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Speaker 2: I mean you know, actually physically on Everestore or any

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Speaker 2: other huge mountain that's you know, you're tied you on

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Speaker 2: the way down, that's when it gets to you run

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Speaker 2: out of oxygen or the storm overcomes you. But also

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Speaker 2: in that sense of like socially climbing or climbing the

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Speaker 2: ladder of fame and awards and accolades, nobody can ever

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Speaker 2: stay on top forever. And so if you don't have

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Speaker 2: some sort of central values to latch onto and to

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Speaker 2: lock onto that, and you don't if you're doing it

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Speaker 2: for the wrong reasons, you know, and they can never

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Speaker 2: be for fame actually, because that's that's just just fleeting.

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Speaker 2: And and if you're not prepared for that to leave you,

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Speaker 2: like if you don't understand it, that's just temporary or

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Speaker 2: not even real, and you're going to get really lost

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Speaker 2: when that goes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. I wrote a book years ago,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen years ago, one of my books,

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Speaker 1: and in this I have this pretend conversation with this dude,

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Speaker 1: which was really a reflection of many actual conversations. But

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Speaker 1: it goes something like, so I sit down with a client,

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Speaker 1: which I used to I used to own gyms and stuff,

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Speaker 1: which you know, And I'd sit down with people who'd

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Speaker 1: come in because they want to, you know, change their body,

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Speaker 1: their mindset, habits, behavior's outcome, health, blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: And I'd go, so, tell me about you, and then

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Speaker 1: they'd tell me about their business, or then that'd tell

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Speaker 1: me about their brand, or then they'd tell me about

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Speaker 1: their address where they live. Then that tell me about

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Speaker 1: their kids or that. I go, yeah, cool, that's all good.

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Speaker 1: But none of that is you tell me about you.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me about where you live, or what you drive,

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Speaker 1: or what you own, or what you earn, or what

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Speaker 1: your job is or where tell me about you. They

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Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck to say because they don't

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Speaker 1: know who they are beyond all those identifiers. You know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a philosophical kind of question, isn't it. It is?

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Speaker 2: And I imagine for a lot of people it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to answer. But for me personally, you know, my wealth,

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Speaker 2: you know, my personal wealth is never like as a human,

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Speaker 2: is not attached to what I do at the restaurant.

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Speaker 2: I think I can apply my creativity to other things

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Speaker 2: like renovating a house, for example, which I've done multiple times,

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Speaker 2: or skateboarding. And I've often said that this thing that

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Speaker 2: I love doing, which is running this restaurant and with

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Speaker 2: these amazing people, that I never let that die. You

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Speaker 2: know that I work to protect that. But when the feeling,

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Speaker 2: the euphoria from creating new things at the restaurant is gone,

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Speaker 2: I will stop doing it and I will look to

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Speaker 2: do something else. So yeah, I just think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just a folly to link yourself to your occupation

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Speaker 2: too much. Try to limit yourself even in that way.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you can really grow if you're not

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Speaker 2: really thinking about who you are.

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Speaker 1: Do you run the restaurant yourself? Like, are you the

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Speaker 1: are you the day to day boss?

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Speaker 2: Yes? One of them? Yep, I'm the director, I guess.

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Speaker 2: I run it with my wife Kylie, so we co

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Speaker 2: run it. But we also have quite a big team.

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Speaker 2: We have forty employees, we have you know, a hitd chef,

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Speaker 2: we have a restaurant manager, we have more junior people,

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Speaker 2: and so there's a good group of us running it actually,

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Speaker 2: But yes, I am their day to day pretty much

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Speaker 2: every day. Still, it's down nineteenth year this year. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: you've got to love it.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's your what's your take on leadership? Because

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Speaker 1: I mean you got forty people, there's forty personalities, forty humans,

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Speaker 1: forty backstories, forty expectations, you know, psychology, physiology, emotions, sociology.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on leadership and how do you do it?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, I'll be honest with you. In the

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Speaker 2: early days, you know, I started to attic here when

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Speaker 2: I was twenty seven, and I was a completely useless leader.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how to I don't know

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Speaker 2: how to support people or prop people up or you know,

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Speaker 2: give them any kind of feedback, and so like I

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Speaker 2: really failed those early teams, you know. But there's something

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Speaker 2: that I absolutely linked becoming a great leader of something

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Speaker 2: I linked to I guess, the overall performance of the

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Speaker 2: business and not just the performance, but the well being

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Speaker 2: of the people there too. So in the last decade

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Speaker 2: OR worked really hard and one of the things on leadership,

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Speaker 2: but one of the things that I rise over everything

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Speaker 2: else is directness, respectful directness. Just tell people what you

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Speaker 2: need and what you think, do it in a way

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Speaker 2: that doesn't hurt them. Do it in a way that

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Speaker 2: they know that you've got their personal growth in mind

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Speaker 2: and that what you're saying is more than benefiting the business,

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Speaker 2: but benefiting them long term too. So I really acutely

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Speaker 2: disliked bullshit. So I will kind of sort of leader

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Speaker 2: that will work through the business to kind of eliminate

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Speaker 2: any anything that I think is bullshit that we're doing

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Speaker 2: and not direct because I want to kind of be

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Speaker 2: as direct as I can with our customers in our

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Speaker 2: expression as well creatively. And there's a variety of things

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Speaker 2: and unusual kind of ways we go about bringing this

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Speaker 2: team together. But I always believe very very strongly that

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Speaker 2: empathy is the oldest sibling of performance. So we need

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Speaker 2: to have an empathetic workplace. That's not to say that

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Speaker 2: that stuff doesn't happen, or things don't go wrong, or

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Speaker 2: sometimes people might have an argument or dislike each other.

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Speaker 2: That's just human nature. But I guess I'm really talking

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Speaker 2: about eliminating toxic negativity, you know, And so I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: strict on that. Like, you know, whatever's going on in

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Speaker 2: your life, you know, you need to still come to

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Speaker 2: work with a super positive attitude. Now, if you can't,

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Speaker 2: of course, we're going to support you and look after

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Speaker 2: you and try to help you. But really like your

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Speaker 2: personal mental health and your well being in an environment,

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Speaker 2: in a job where it's fair, that you're properly paid,

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Speaker 2: that you're not getting bullied or harassed. It's your responsibility

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Speaker 2: if those things are straight, you know, And and that

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Speaker 2: begins and ends with me as well. Right, So I

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Speaker 2: can't come to work in a shitty mood with a

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Speaker 2: shitty attitude, because I'm asking my team to come to

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Speaker 2: work with a great attitude and to bring it every day.

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Speaker 2: So no, really, I think the leader has absolutely got

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Speaker 2: to live what they're breaching.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. It's I employed con what did

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Speaker 1: I employ about five hundred people over the years in

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Speaker 1: my gyms, and it was a constant juggling act of

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Speaker 1: psychology and sociology and practicality and trying to create that

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Speaker 1: trying to create a place where people want to be

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Speaker 1: ben You know, I do lots of corporate speaking now,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I ask bosses, managers' leaders

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Speaker 1: is do people want to be in this place? Do

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Speaker 1: people like coming here? I know there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: other questions after that, but if the answer to that

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Speaker 1: question is no, you've fucked.

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Speaker 2: So I could not agree more great.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's like people. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean you've got to be their best friend, but if

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Speaker 1: they don't kind of like you or respect you, that's tough.

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Speaker 1: And then if you've got a place of culture and

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Speaker 1: environment that people don't want to be in, fack, there's

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Speaker 1: lots of work to do. So yeah, and it's again

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Speaker 1: with different because you can say one thing to Sally

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Speaker 1: and she's cool, you say the same thing to Tiffany

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Speaker 1: because she's high maintenance and oh sorry, tif oh you

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Speaker 1: know it's not gonna it's not going to work. And

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Speaker 1: so you've got to navigate this myriad of complex kind

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Speaker 1: of social interactions as well as being tough and strong.

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Speaker 1: That's a real jug, yeah, actor.

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Speaker 2: It really is. And I think, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: the main thing that people are listening here and wanting

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Speaker 2: to be better leaders and better in business, the main

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Speaker 2: thing I would say is to is to actually just

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Speaker 2: try try to improve yourself, try to improve your leadership

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Speaker 2: and do it incrementally. But it's pretty easy to think,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I'm a really shitty leader and I've

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Speaker 2: got no hope. But I would say, just try to

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Speaker 2: change a small thing one percent every day perhaps about

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Speaker 2: what you're doing, and over time and pretty quickly you

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Speaker 2: will realize that you've kind of revolutionized the culture. To

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Speaker 2: your point about the psychology of workplaces, I mean, my wife, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: who's really responsible so much for the success of our business.

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Speaker 2: She's three quarters of the way through a psychology degree

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Speaker 2: in no small part to basically deal with exactly what

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Speaker 2: you're saying. You know, humans are complicated in our once

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Speaker 2: and our needs and our desires and our emotion and

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Speaker 2: ups and downs, you know, and that's never going away,

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Speaker 2: no matter how the team you've got, no matter who

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Speaker 2: you select, that's always going to kind of be a constant.

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Speaker 2: But I would say that there's a rule that I

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Speaker 2: kind of apply and I think it's helpful. And I

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Speaker 2: learned this through coaching youth basketball through my son's team.

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Speaker 2: But I say, the low's never too low and the

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Speaker 2: high is never too high. And by that I mean

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Speaker 2: if you just kind of come through the middle as

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Speaker 2: a leader and you don't overreact when there's a low

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Speaker 2: point in the business or something goes wrong, and if

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Speaker 2: you don't over celebrate something that you've done really well,

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Speaker 2: like just kind of keep it in the middle. I

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Speaker 2: think there's sort of a security in people for that,

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Speaker 2: you know, like with your team, that the leaders not

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Speaker 2: over celebrating the winds and not and not doubling down

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Speaker 2: and going super aggressive when things go wrong, because they

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Speaker 2: will go wrong, and they go wrong in every business.

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Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is is from the

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Speaker 2: outside people look in it, a successful organization can go well,

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Speaker 2: everything must just be perfectly every day, And the reality

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Speaker 2: is nothing is further from the truth. And every successful

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Speaker 2: organization is really finding the same problems as any as

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Speaker 2: any other one. And the reality is it's just sort

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Speaker 2: of how you deal with those problems and who you

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Speaker 2: deal with them with. And also think just lastly, you know,

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Speaker 2: not not repeating those same mistakes as a pretty big

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Speaker 2: one on leadership. You know, if something goes wrong, analyze

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Speaker 2: it and you go, you know what, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to end up back there because that sucked for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I read a book years ago which you

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Speaker 1: you're way younger than me, which is fucking annoying. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so called the myth. Have you ever heard of that book?

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Speaker 1: I have not known? Buck Off all right, anyway. Now

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Speaker 1: it came out the same time as the Bible anyway,

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Speaker 1: so wow, the Old Testament New Testament was proceeded the

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Speaker 1: New Testament. But anyway, a guy called Gerber wrote that,

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Speaker 1: Michael Gerber, I think it was. And the e myth

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Speaker 1: is about this idea, Mike Ben that you've got to

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Speaker 1: work on the business. Not you've got to work in

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Speaker 1: the business, but to be able to build it and

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Speaker 1: develop it, you've got to be able to step awongeally.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to be objective about the thing that you're

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Speaker 1: in the middle of. And you know, I've always immersed

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Speaker 1: in my business, which sometimes gives me a really good, visceral,

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Speaker 1: subjective experience of what's going on. But it's only when

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Speaker 1: I step back into the macro and out of the

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Speaker 1: micro that I can kind of have that bigger picture vision.

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Speaker 1: My clumsy, long winded, fucking question is, in terms of

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Speaker 1: your career and Attica and all the things that you do,

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Speaker 1: how much of that is kind of big picture planning,

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Speaker 1: macro strategic, long term timeline projection, and how much is

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Speaker 1: you just in the middle of it being instinctive and intuitive.

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Speaker 2: It's probably ninety nine percent of me just being in

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Speaker 2: the middle of it, living in the moment, knowing and

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Speaker 2: kind of understanding that the moment, like right now, I'm

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Speaker 2: You're the only thing I can focus on right now,

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Speaker 2: this conversation, this interview. I'm not worried about what's happening

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Speaker 2: after this. That's really kind of how I go. I

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Speaker 2: really really want to ring the most out of my

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Speaker 2: life that I can, and I've found by absolutely focusing

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Speaker 2: on every day and just living it to the fullest

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Speaker 2: and trying to get the most out of it that

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Speaker 2: I've been a lot happier. I'm not a great forward planner,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not really tremendous at reflecting on the past either,

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Speaker 2: because I've always kind of wanted to evolve. But I'm

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Speaker 2: fortunate in our business that I do have other people

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Speaker 2: who are making those longer term plans. But for me,

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Speaker 2: a long term plan is a month. You know, I

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Speaker 2: kind of don't want to talk about, like, unless it's

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Speaker 2: something that's obviously like critical, I don't really want to

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Speaker 2: talk about it, you know. I kin't want to talk

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Speaker 2: about what are we going to do today again kind

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Speaker 2: of idea. You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So here's a philosophical question to feel free to

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Speaker 1: jump in. I feel like you might have a question

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Speaker 1: for the great man. My research is around this thing

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I mentioned to you when we

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Speaker 1: chatted the other day called metapception, which is essentially your

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Speaker 1: ability to understand the Ben experience for others. So the

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Speaker 1: question at the core of my research is what's it

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Speaker 1: like being around me for the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: but my wife, for my kids, for my team, for strangers,

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Speaker 1: for my customers. What do you think the Ben experience

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Speaker 1: is like for others?

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Speaker 2: What a fascinating thing to study. Great I think that's

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Speaker 2: amazing that you've done that, because I think so few

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Speaker 2: leaders actually think about how they're affecting other people, either

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Speaker 2: positively or negatively, and I think we all, to some

404
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Speaker 2: degree affect other people positively negatively. I'm acutely aware of

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Speaker 2: of my influence over my team and of others, and

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Speaker 2: that's why I do call myself a leader for my industry,

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Speaker 2: because I think that especially chef's chefs will do anything

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Speaker 2: for each other. We are mad generally, right, like, we

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Speaker 2: have a history of working insane hours and being put through,

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Speaker 2: you know, various forms of kind of torture by our

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Speaker 2: industry and by our employees historically, and so I'm acutely

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Speaker 2: aware of that history and also of my own personal

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Speaker 2: history about how I've I've gone through that too. At

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Speaker 2: the age of forty, I'd already worked the retirement age.

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Speaker 2: I'd already worked the amount of hours that are somebody

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Speaker 2: retiring at sixty five had, you know, And I did

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Speaker 2: reflect upon that. You know, I probably didn't think that

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Speaker 2: was that well, that's great, you know, certainly it wasn't

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Speaker 2: paid for them, and so that obviously makes you think

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Speaker 2: about your own, your staff's experience, but also just of

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Speaker 2: your influence on them. So what I'm kind of what

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of trying to say to you, is that

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Speaker 2: I am really mindful of my own ambition with my

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Speaker 2: employees because there are times literally if I asked them

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Speaker 2: to walk up a cliff with me, they probably would,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I need to be self aware in

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Speaker 2: that way. There's little things that I do, I suppose

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Speaker 2: and little rules that kind of I personally have with

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Speaker 2: the staff. And one of them is very simple, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's it's not an exceptional rule, but it's

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Speaker 2: just say say hello, how are you to every single

432
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: person in the building every single day. Yeah, and so,

433
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: and not in a formulatic way, not going around hi, no,

434
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: actually genuinely just take thirty seconds, so just ask hey,

435
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 2: how are you? And you know, occasionally somebody will say,

436
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not great, and I'll say, well, hey,

437
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: you know what's going on? You know, and now they

438
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: may tell me or they may say, no, I'm going

439
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: to be all right. I'm just I'm just having a

440
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: bit of a day. But I've got my you know,

441
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: I focus on the job and other times, you know,

442
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 2: we'll have a coffee and we'll chat about it, you know,

443
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 2: because I guess I'm one of the older members of

444
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: the team, you know, I've been through most of the

445
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 2: struggles that that people go through. Yeah, so i'd really

446
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 2: try to be aware. I don't think you can ever

447
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 2: be fully completely aware of how you are. But one

448
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 2: thing I strive not to be is ever harsh, because

449
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: I think you can really crush somebody, particularly somebody that

450
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: looks up to you, just by talking to them the

451
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: wrong way. And so if I ever do that, which

452
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: is very rare, and I can think of an example

453
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: in the last three years where I was actually doing

454
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: an interview, but like this in the office, and a

455
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: young chef is a really lovely person, came into the office,

456
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 2: came in behind me, and he sort of just started

457
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 2: talking to me over my shoulder and ask me questions,

458
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 2: and I said, can you just just give me a second,

459
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: you know, And I was just kind of like frustrated

460
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: and a bit annoyed, but he's he's such a genuinely

461
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: beautiful person, and so I huffed at him a little

462
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: bit and I said, oh god, you know, that would

463
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 2: have bloody crushed him a bit, you know. So a

464
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: couple of hours later, or an hour later, after I

465
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: finished that call, I went in and I said, hey, listen,

466
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry about that. And he said, oh, no, no,

467
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: there was nothing to be sorry about. I shouldn't approach it.

468
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: And I said, no, no, I didn't live up to

469
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: my own expectations. You're a really great person. I'm really

470
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: sorry about that. And he sort of beamed, you know,

471
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 2: and we both knew that was the truth.

472
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: You know, that's amazing, well one mate, and I'm not

473
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. That's amazing awareness, situational self awareness

474
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: and also social intelligence to know that that's the right

475
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: thing to do, and humility to be able to go no, mate,

476
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm the problem. Like that's so. I listened to this

477
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: podcast the other day and there were these two two

478
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: people talking and they said this. One of them said

479
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 1: this interesting thing. This so I forget this psychologist. And

480
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: she said something like, for all of the problems that

481
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: you have in your life, you're there for a one

482
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: hundred percent of them. That's incredible, right, And also for

483
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: all the dysfunctional relationships and problems in relationships you've had,

484
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: you're the only common denominator.

485
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: Right, Oh my goodness.

486
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: Now that's not to say, that's not to say that

487
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: that person's always the problem, but it's like, it's funny

488
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: how when people talk about shit, they really go, ah,

489
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: this is going on in my life with this bloody Ben.

490
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: Me and Ben. And by the way, I'm the problem.

491
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: Nobody says that no. No.

492
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: So that awareness, that awareness that you had to go no,

493
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: made one hundred percent me And that's great and rare.

494
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 2: Thank you. Well, you know, I think the bucks has

495
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: stop with me ultimately, you know, if we succeed or fail,

496
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: it's come and going to be on me. You know.

497
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: I've had some really great teachers in that way though, too,

498
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: and I'll give you this example of this friend, Miriam,

499
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: who we were having this conversation. She's from South Sudan

500
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: and we're having this conversation at her place once about

501
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: this guy that had kind of come in to her

502
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 2: garden and just sort of started ranting about how terrible

503
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: the garden was, and we were having a bit of

504
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: a laugh about it, and she was saying that being

505
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: negative is a full time job, and she was joking

506
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: about how his realist person was really putting it back

507
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 2: into it. You know, I really committed to it, like

508
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 2: and I like to have kind of examples of people,

509
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: you know, who find kind of culpability their own culpability

510
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: and kind of almost any situation. And for Miriam, you know,

511
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: had been this experience of racism that was so pervasive

512
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 2: when when there was this rhetoric in the media about

513
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: African games, and she is a migrant, and she said, well,

514
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: what could I do about this, you know? And she

515
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: decided that she could educate people, that she could bring

516
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: people into a home and teach her about her culture.

517
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: And I said, oh my god, you're being subjected to

518
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: this horrible, horrible racist trope, and yet you are going

519
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to find some small solution about it.

520
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, what example, what could I possibly have

521
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: to stop me from not finding some culpability in any

522
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: kind of aspect of my life. I think, you know,

523
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: we're seldom ever completely innocent. I would say that she

524
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: was completely innocent, but yeah, she is like, well I

525
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: need to do something about it, you know.

526
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. It is amazing, and it is it's

527
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: so easy to be all about problems, and it's so

528
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: easy to be all about blame and transference and avoidance.

529
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: But to be able to go you know, it's like

530
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: when I talk about which people get uncomfortable with. But

531
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: I was a morbidly obese kid, right I was. I

532
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: was over I was like ninety five kilos when I

533
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: was fourteen. I'm eighty five kilos now, and I was

534
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: six inches shorter and my name at school was Jumbo

535
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. Right, But yeah, but I talk

536
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: about like I created that. You know. It's like and yeah,

537
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: I was a kid, but I ate my way into that,

538
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: and at some stage I needed to take responsibility and go, well, look,

539
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: nobody's making me sit on the couch, nobody's making me

540
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: eat all the fucking cake that I love nobody's you know,

541
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,239
Speaker 1: and that being being able to be self aware and

542
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: responsible without the self loathing bend. You know, I think

543
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: where you're you're just taking ownership without beating yourself up.

544
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: There's a big there's a big space between I could

545
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: do better and I'm a fucking idiot. I always get

546
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: this wrong, you know, there's.

547
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: A big space. Old line thinking is hard. Blaming as easy,

548
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: isn't it, you know, And I mean that's a you know,

549
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: that's a profound personal experience that you've had as well, Craig.

550
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: You know, that's that I can I can relate to

551
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: that on some levels. You know. It was also an

552
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: overweight teenager. You know, it was at one hundred and

553
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: three kilos at one point, and you know, I went

554
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: down into the late seventies and now I'm at about

555
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: age six, and you know, I think also, like for men,

556
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: it's not like something that it's easy to talk about

557
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: our weight or our body image, e the you know,

558
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: something that I've kind of had to come to terms

559
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: with in the last couple of years. I've always struggled

560
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: with it.

561
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: So I really.

562
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: Sympathized with you, you know, and understand where you're coming from.

563
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: Well, I grew up very much with digressing, but fuck it,

564
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: this is where we're going. Like, I grew up very

565
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: much identifying with my body, you know, and I thought

566
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: because I was, you know, that was my name. My

567
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: name was my jumbo and you know all that stuff

568
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: which my listeners have heard too many times. But you know,

569
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: being picked last for sporting teams and all those things

570
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: that come with being unathletic and unfit and fat, and

571
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, and the social stuff and the emotional stuff

572
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: and the physiological stuff and the practical stuff, and then

573
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: it's hard when you Then I got in shape, like you,

574
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: very fit, very strong, very lean, started to become, probably

575
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: in an unhealthy way, obsessive and all that shit. But

576
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: then then I really started to identify myself capital s

577
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: self with my body, and they became indistinguishable. Where I

578
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: went well and if I looked good, I felt better,

579
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: and if I look put on two kilos, I felt shit.

580
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: And if someone complimented my appearance, I felt good. And

581
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: so I was always seeking approval and love and connection

582
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: and validation through this thing that I lived in. Right,

583
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: That's that's a journey, and that's a journey like a

584
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: lot of people are on.

585
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: I think, oh, one hundred percent, such a tough one.

586
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's so difficult.

587
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you and I got through it. I'm still

588
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: a work in progress though, I'm still a fuck with

589
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: around food. Hey, I wanted to ask you a little

590
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: bit about dealing with pressure, like you were talking about

591
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: the the craziness that goes on in kitchens. When I

592
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: was a kid, my parents owned a restaurant and sell

593
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: in a restaurant, and I remember the the interesting chefs,

594
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: you know if they were interesting and talented, artistic, creative,

595
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: high maintenance some of them. But tell me about your

596
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: the way that you deal with pressure and expectations and

597
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: all the you know, the behind the scenes drama that

598
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: can be in a very high profile, very successful because

599
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: when people are coming to Attaka, they expect awesome, and

600
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: so you've got to do Yeah.

601
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: No, there's a great question. There is a lot of

602
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: pressure and the way that I've dealt with that pressure myself,

603
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: this is probably not quite the same as the way

604
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: that the staff have to deal with it. The way

605
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: that I've dealt with it is to and without wanting

606
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: to say on egotist school, or arrogant is to sort

607
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: of understand that I'm the expert in this and that

608
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: I've dedicated my life to this craft completely since the

609
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: time that I was a small child, that I've worked

610
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: the seventy five eighty l weeks, that I've struggled and

611
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: built this thing through determination and through my hands and

612
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: through my mind. Therefore, I set higher standard for myself

613
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: than anybody else could for me. Does that make.

614
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: Sense to you.

615
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: Yes, So that's sort of just like that's not something

616
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: I've really shared with anybody before, but that's kind of

617
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: my mentality. And that's not to say that I always

618
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: get it right or that I'm always perfect, but genuinely

619
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: I said my standard for the team. You're completely correct

620
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: how our customers come with really really high expectations. You know,

621
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: some people come expecting, you know, a near religious experience,

622
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: and that's actually not something to believe it or not

623
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 2: that we can offer. But but it doesn't mean that

624
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: we that we won't die trying. You know, we are

625
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: completely committed to two excellence for our guests, but for

626
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: our staff, we want that that excellence to be manageable

627
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: and traditionally, as I mentioned, kitchens are ruled through fear,

628
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, and and sort of they've been very misogynistic,

629
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: male dominated places. You know, that's a fact. And they

630
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: still are largely the you know, women still don't have

631
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: the same opportunities as men in hospitality in regards to

632
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: running kitchens. So that I think we just have to

633
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: say that and and understand it. But they've been ruled

634
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 2: with an iron First, there is a system of hierarchy

635
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: that comes out of France and kitchens, and and you

636
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 2: dare not make a mistakeless or put a foot wrong,

637
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: or the fist will come down upon you, sometimes actually physically,

638
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: but often mentally. So there've been places of abuse and fear.

639
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: And to me, you know, the idea that a kitchen

640
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 2: can't be kind and high performance is kind of counterintuitive

641
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: to performance. To me, I just I could that never

642
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: sat with me. I came from the back country in

643
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 2: New Zealand. I did endure and experience kitchens of this kind.

644
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: But to me, they were never great, they were never

645
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: doing meaningful work. And and so for me, how we

646
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: deal with that that pressure and is that we try

647
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 2: to eliminate that kind of fear, you know, that that's

648
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: we don't have people running the kitchen who are ranting,

649
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: yelling or abusing our teams. They are calm during service,

650
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 2: and there's always catastrophes in kitchens. A chef's life is

651
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: in a state of fluid failure. You know, it's not

652
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 2: if things will go wrong, it's when and how often

653
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: and will anybody fucking notice? That's literally how it is, right,

654
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: And so we're trying to fix everything as we fuck

655
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: everything up, and we're trying to hide it. Right, I've

656
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: been truthful here, you know. You know, it's percentages. Maybe

657
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: our idea of a fuck up is not the same

658
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: as the normal person's, but yet there it is. And

659
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: I think if you don't count those little percentages, then

660
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: then there is a tangible effects. You've got to be

661
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: really disciplined. But so we're hustling and trying to just

662
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: working so hard to just hold it all together kind

663
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: of every night. But if we if and this is

664
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: the same in any kind of high performing kitchen in

665
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: the world, now, if that same kitchen is run by fear,

666
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 2: then what those cooks will do is they will hide

667
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 2: those mistakes. And we implore our people to bring the

668
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: mistakes to us immediately, and then calmly. As a team,

669
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: we can figure out how to fix that quickly, because

670
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: whatever catastrophe there is in life, it requires calm and

671
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: persistent attention to fix. If you're losing your shit, if

672
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: you're losing control of yourself, you're just making things worse.

673
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: And you just got to think straight and think about

674
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: this problem about how you're going to overcome it now.

675
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: If it's a really big one and it requires some

676
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: level of this this one, then that can be done

677
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: post the mistake in a calm manner, not in the moment,

678
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: but typically in kitchens it's been you've bucked up. Now

679
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: I'm screaming and spinning in your face, and you feel

680
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: terrified and ashamed, and you've lost your dignity. So I

681
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: think it's really important for our people not to lose

682
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: their dignity within the mistakes that they will absolutely make

683
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: as I make them.

684
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: That's such a such a high level understanding from a

685
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: sociological I don't mean sound like a bloody scientist, but psychological,

686
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: emotional cultural like that awareness of it, apart from all

687
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: the food stuff and the cooking and the business stuff

688
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: and the keeping the you know, the customers or your

689
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: guests satisfied. On top of that understanding how to optimize

690
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: or try to optimize the dynamics and the energy in

691
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: that cauldron. That's some high level shit that you just articulated.

692
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Most people don't even think like that.

693
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That means a lot. I would just

694
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: say as simply as this, though, it comes from an

695
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: understanding that humans don't want to do a bad job.

696
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 2: You have to have that kind of understanding as the leader.

697
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 2: Nobody's coming to the kitchen today to fuck up? No,

698
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: why would they do that? Like, I really don't think

699
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: I've ever met somebody even like the employees that haven't

700
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: worked out that truly in their heart came to do

701
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: a bad job today.

702
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, So outside of outside of business for

703
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: a minute, how do you manage you? How do you

704
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: stay focused mentally, emotionally healthy, excited, curious? Like what it

705
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about you? How you kind

706
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: of optimize yourself or you don't think of it like that?

707
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: No, I do think of it. I sort of have

708
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: a philosophy that and this is just you know, some

709
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 2: people will walk at this and go that's ridiculous, But

710
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: this is just for me, you know, And I'm not

711
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 2: saying as I detail this, that this, this is what

712
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 2: I think other people should do, But this just works

713
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 2: for me. I just I just try to apply one

714
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: really high standard to everything that I do. And I

715
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: don't differ that standard whether I'm working or whether I'm

716
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 2: at home. So if I'm parenting, I'm sort of trying

717
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 2: to do it at the same level that I would

718
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: run Attica. If I'm skateboarding, you know, I'm not a

719
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: very good skateboarder, but like, I'm trying to do it

720
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: to the best of my ability, you know, if I'm

721
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: I love, you know, making things, I'm making stuff up,

722
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: you know, crafting stuff for I just try to do

723
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: it at a high level. I just find it easier

724
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: to do it this way. Then I don't have to

725
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: sort of lower or raise my standard for things. Am

726
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: I always meeting it? Of course? Not like am I

727
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: beating myself up when I don't like no, no, I'm not, no,

728
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 2: But but I'm trying. And you know, I'm not a

729
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: good example of somebody that kind of makes time for themselves.

730
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 2: I will pack everything and that I can, and sometimes

731
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 2: too much, and then, you know, like anybody'll occasionally complain

732
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: to myself about it, but but realistically, like it's on me,

733
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: you know, I have wonderful friends. I think that that's

734
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: so crucial to surround yourself with with people who really

735
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: genuinely care about you for you, and like back to

736
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: this earlier conversation around not for what you do or

737
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: or how famous you are, but for you and people

738
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: that see that see that value in you. I think

739
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: it's so crucial. And those friends you know, have helped

740
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: me through the best at times and the worst times.

741
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, yeah, you need that. You need that

742
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: sounding board sometimes, and I call it, I use this

743
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: term called an unreasonable friend, and it's someone that loves you,

744
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: cares about you, but will tell you sometimes what you

745
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: need to here, not necessarily what you want to hear.

746
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: Best guy a friend, right, you know where it's likely

747
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: I'd sell people. I don't need a fan club. I

748
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: don't need you to tell me I'm amazing when I'm

749
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: being a dickhead. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help me,

750
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: and it's not true, you know. And I think that

751
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: ability to be able to be okay with getting things

752
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: right and not right and not beating yourself up. And

753
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: I think also because thinking when you're talking about how

754
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: much you work, like I work a lot, TIF works

755
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, I'm full time work, full time study,

756
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: seven podcasts a week, one hundred and twenty speaking gigs

757
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: a year, consulting, lots of shit, right, But all the

758
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: stuff that I do is somewhere between I enjoy it

759
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: and I fucking love it, Like I don't do anything

760
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: I hate.

761
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: Right.

762
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: So, in the corporate speaking, coaching, mentoring workshop space, you know,

763
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: they're for one hundred years, not really, probably fifty years,

764
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: they've been talking about work life balance, And for me,

765
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: it's a redundant concept because it kind of suggests that

766
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: there's a like almost a number, like a balance that

767
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: we get this much work, Ben and this much not work,

768
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: and then when we get the scales right, and it's

769
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: like it's a numerical thing, and I'm like no, because

770
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: you might do twenty hours a week, which is not

771
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: many hours, but you fucking hate every hour and that

772
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: is really bad for you mentally, emotionally, physically, versus you

773
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: do eighty hours, which again I'm not suggesting neither's Ben,

774
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: but you might do eighty hours a week periodically of shit.

775
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: That just fucking excites you, stimulates you, grows you, gives

776
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: you joy, pleasure, Like right now, I'm you're I'm not

777
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. I love you, You're awesome. I

778
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: could hang out with you. This is my job, Like

779
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you. This is ridiculous, this is fun

780
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: for me. This is for me. But this is one

781
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: of the components of my work. And you know, when

782
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: you do shit that I know, people go when you

783
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: do what you love, you never work a day in

784
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: your life, and that's kind of cliche and not always

785
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: possible all the time. But yeah, like for me, the

786
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: stuff that I do, and I think probably the stuff

787
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: that you do, despite the periodic stress and anxiety, for

788
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: the most part, it's a positive like it's it's a

789
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: net result, you know.

790
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes even when it's negative, it's kind of positive,

791
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: you know, Like, and I couldn't agree more with what

792
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: you're saying. And I'm not a matter I hope nobody

793
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: listening thinks for him, he has to work so much. No,

794
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: I'm choosing that, you know, just like you know, I

795
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: chose to turn up for this interview on time, you know,

796
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 2: But but I really think, like you know, for me,

797
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: it's kind of trying to I don't differentiate really between

798
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: I don't really do work and I don't really do home.

799
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: I just kind of do life. And maybe that sounds

800
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: a little cliche, but I really don't like the strong

801
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: demarcation between work and the rest of life. Certainly don't

802
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: like the idea of having to work for the rest

803
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: of life. Like I just think that the work part

804
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: is just too big a part of life for it

805
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: not to be enjoyable, at least on some level. You know,

806
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: maybe it's not possible for every person in the world

807
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: to find as much joy in their work as you

808
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: clearly do, and I clearly do it, even though I

809
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: would really hope that for people, you know, But I

810
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: would say that trying to find fun and stuff and

811
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: joy in it is just central to happiness. And I'll

812
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: give you a Philly example from yesterday. We found this

813
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: enormous cactus on Facebook marketplace. It's like three point eight

814
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: meters tall, it's got multiple heads, it's hundred kilos. I

815
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: spent six hours dragging it from this guy's backyard to

816
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: get it on as Bunning's higher. You right, it's absolutely insane.

817
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: Like I am prepared to do things that are ridiculous.

818
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: If that's not clear yet.

819
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, you know there's people who can do shit

820
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: like that, right, you know you don't want to personally

821
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: do that yourself, you dickhead.

822
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: I'm actually going to say, I don't know if there

823
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: is in this case, because nobody would be stupid enough

824
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 2: to move this flip and plant, and they couldn't sell it.

825
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: It was quite cheap. It's beautiful cactus. Anyway. The story

826
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: is a battle in a battle, in a battle to

827
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: get it to our house. I get it off the

828
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: you our fantastic chefs, and they have to you know,

829
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: they come up to help me, which thank god, we

830
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: thought we were going to die as we stood it up.

831
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: I get it in the ground, I stake it. It

832
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: looks amazing. All the neighbors are very happy. And then

833
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: the wind come on Monday, and I didn't know how

834
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: long it would take the route, and I had a state

835
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 2: for a month old that's probably going to be okay.

836
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: I removed the state. The wind blows the thing over. Now,

837
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 2: that same day, i'd been to the doctor who told

838
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: me that I tore a tendon in my knee moving

839
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: that fucking cactus. So you can imagine how that made

840
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: me feel, right like, kind of very depressed. And I've

841
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 2: been told I can't bend over and lift stuff at

842
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: the moment for a bit. The knee's going to be

843
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: fine anyway. In a fantastic name this long story, but

844
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to quickly wind it up. Fantastic neighbor rang

845
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 2: me and said, I've got six builders renovating in the

846
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 2: front of our house. I'd like to send them over

847
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: to help you pick up your cactus. And so the

848
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: builders came over. And I've been around. I grew up

849
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 2: on building sites. My father and my uncle builders, and

850
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 2: there were such nice people, and we had such a

851
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 2: good time, and we were just making jokes about eating cactus,

852
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: and it was such a joyful thing. The six of

853
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: us working out how to pick up flip and cactus

854
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: and put it back in the ground. Took us about

855
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: thirty minutes. We all shook hands, they all joked about

856
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: how now I owed them a meal at Attica, And

857
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: it was the highlight of my day picking up a

858
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 2: silly cactus, you know, joyful, trying to find that. I

859
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: just try to find the joy and everything, you know,

860
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: one hundred percent.

861
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: Hey, mate, I could talk to you. For a long time.

862
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: I haven't even spoke to you about art or bikes

863
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: or music or all the other things that you're good

864
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: at and into. But maybe we can, Maybe we can

865
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: reconvene it a later date. Do you want to point

866
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: do you want to point anyone towards anything?

867
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: Oh?

868
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: Did I forget that you're writing a book? Have you

869
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: just written a book?

870
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: I have written a book. Yes, tell me about the book.

871
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: Tells about.

872
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: The book's called Uses for Obsession, And it's out on

873
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 2: the first of October in Australia and the UK. It's

874
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 2: a book about the search for the meaning and everything.

875
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of a memoir meets manifesto. It's searing, hopefully,

876
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: it's hilarious. It tells a bunch of brutally honest stories.

877
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm really excit about it. I've spent

878
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: the last two years writing it. Writing is one of

879
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: my greatest pleasures. Yeah, it's it's out soon. It's got

880
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: three recipes for bolonnes in it, and I invite the

881
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: reader to join my bolonnaise cult and to progress through

882
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 2: the cult. They've got to make these three recipes, starting

883
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: with really basic kind of beginner bolonnaise, then kind of

884
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: a mid range one, then like expert level. So that's

885
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: my sales. That's my sales, pitch.

886
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: I love a good cult. Just tell me the name

887
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: of the book again, uses for obsession. I love it.

888
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: Such a clever name and two uses for obsession? Is it?

889
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: So it's out on October one in all good and

890
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: shit bookstores? Is it going to be on audio as well?

891
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I rated the audiobook myself about six weeks ago.

892
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: Was a hell of an experience.

893
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: How many days did that take you?

894
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: Six six hour days and about six hours of prep

895
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: on either side?

896
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: And so what is the end product? How many hours

897
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: is the audio book?

898
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: I think it's about eight and a half. I haven't

899
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: actually heard the whole thing yet. It is a fascinating,

900
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 2: fascinating experience. Yeah, I don't believe how many how many?

901
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: How I mispronounced so many words you would never imagine,

902
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: like you've been called out by the producer every thirty seconds.

903
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: Say that again, that's hilarious. The book's called uses for obsession. Mate.

904
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: It's been really nice to chat to you and get

905
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: to know you a little bit, and I would love

906
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: it if you would come back we'll say goodbye Fair

907
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: but for the moment, Ben, thanks for being on the show.

908
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you.

909
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Greg, and to really appreciate you guys.