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Speaker 1: I get a team with Bloody rolling. We started the

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Speaker 1: good stuff before we press the go button. So fuck it.

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Speaker 1: I've just put the pause button on Ben Sury, Tiffany

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Speaker 1: and called Craig Ethney half of the You Project. We're

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Speaker 1: just talking, Ben Surry, welcome officially to the typ Thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining.

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Speaker 2: Us, thanks for having me, thanks for being hat champion.

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Speaker 1: Now we're just talking about your aversion to dogs, but

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Speaker 1: your love of cats and Tiff was a little bit upset.

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Speaker 1: Let's unpack that. What's she suggested you might be a sociopath.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear your defense.

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Speaker 3: I have a very clear defense to go straight to

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Speaker 3: my backstory. I grew up on a farm in New

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Speaker 3: Zealand and dogs are working animals, so you don't play

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 2: In fact, you're not even allowed to play with them,

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Speaker 2: otherwise you might ruin them and they can't mustard the

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Speaker 2: sheet properly. So you know, you guys can come back

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Speaker 2: at me with something now if you like. But what

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Speaker 2: do you go?

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Speaker 1: That's Tiff, what do you I can't see your dog

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Speaker 1: must doing anything other than the cat, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like your cat's more likely to muster your dog. So

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Speaker 1: your two animals apart from being cute, are fucking useless.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to I agree with you there, Craig.

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Speaker 3: I do look at the domestic dogs in Melbourne. I

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Speaker 3: think they are quite useless. They couldn't muster a sheep

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Speaker 3: or be of.

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Speaker 2: Any use on a farm.

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Speaker 1: No, they couldn't must for a fucking butterfly.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, they muster my emotions. Doesn't that count? That's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a fun that does count.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't. They have definitely corralled you into the

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Speaker 1: top emotional paddock and they've got you stuck in the

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Speaker 1: corner like a fucking in an emotional prison, with the

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Speaker 1: keys being held by a fucking dog and a cat

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Speaker 1: being helped to ransom in your own place. Hey, beneficially,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. You're a busy man,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, we appreciate you taking the time.

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Speaker 3: That's an absolute pleasure to chat with you.

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Speaker 1: Now without me doing some boring monologue about how amazing

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Speaker 1: you are and all the shit you've done. Can you

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Speaker 1: give to seven people on in my audience who don't

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Speaker 1: know you. I'm suggesting the majority do that who don't

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Speaker 1: know you. Can you give us the self bio? What

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Speaker 1: do you you know when people don't know you, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure happens periodically, and they go, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: What's the answer to that?

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Speaker 3: I hate talking about myself in that way, but I

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Speaker 3: guess I'm a chef.

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Speaker 2: I own a restaurant called Attica in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: I live a very passionate life and I'm into people

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Speaker 3: and everything kind of I come from New Zealand and

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Speaker 3: I'm a dad friend trying not to fuck anything up

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Speaker 3: too much.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of generally my my idea.

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Speaker 1: Well, you fucked it up with TIF straight out of

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Speaker 1: the gates, so you've got about now to repair that

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Speaker 1: damage relationship with B.

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Speaker 2: I'll try hard.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're an uh. I was going to

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Speaker 1: phrase say frustrated, but definitely not frustrated, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like you're an artist. Like I knew of you, but

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Speaker 1: didn't You and I had a brief chat the other

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Speaker 1: day for about thirty nine seconds, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: know each other a little bit. I knew about Attica,

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Speaker 1: I knew about you, but I didn't know you. But

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Speaker 1: the more I've been having to look at your stuff

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Speaker 1: and reading about you and listening to a bit recently,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're really just an artist who expresses

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Speaker 1: himself in different ways.

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting take that you get straight to that

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Speaker 3: there's a history of shit of sort of ridiculing chefs

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Speaker 3: that call themselves artists.

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Speaker 2: So there's always that kind of.

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Speaker 3: History in that part of our culture where I'm kind

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Speaker 3: of reluctant to call myself an artist. But certainly the

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Speaker 3: project of the restaurant is an art project. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not a it's not really like a business that

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Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: It's fairfully independent.

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Speaker 3: We work with people for more many backgrounds, from artists

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Speaker 3: to writers, to musicians, to makers to growers, and it's

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Speaker 3: just a really fun project that's sort of full passion

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Speaker 3: and where we really get to expect express ourselves creatively

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Speaker 3: in any way we.

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Speaker 1: Want to m when you're growing up on that farm

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Speaker 1: with those dogs that you treated like bloody slaves. Sorry, Tiff,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to keep opening that wound. What did

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Speaker 1: you think you were going to do when you were

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Speaker 1: in inverted commas? Big?

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Speaker 2: When I was big? What do you mean, like like,

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Speaker 2: you know, when.

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Speaker 1: You're an actual when you were grown up?

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Speaker 2: What did you what did you what did you want

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 3: Maybe Well, the only thing I ever wanted to do

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Speaker 3: from day dot, really from as young as I can remember,

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Speaker 3: and it even sort of predates my memory, was to

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Speaker 3: become a shift So that starts at h five for me.

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Speaker 3: And I'm absolutely certain about that. Why I was so certain,

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Speaker 3: I'm not entirely sure. I mean, it's definitely growing up

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Speaker 3: around the love of cooking and being so so close

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Speaker 3: to primary ingredients and my mother making food from our

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Speaker 3: farm and from the land.

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Speaker 2: But there was no cooks in my family. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: really a thing in the early eighties.

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Speaker 3: It's not like it is now where people become famous

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Speaker 3: and have large followings, and it's just a completely different time.

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Speaker 3: So I guess my desire to become a shift just

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Speaker 3: came from a pure love of cooking.

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Speaker 1: And what is it like to I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: dumb question, but I'm genuinely curious to have to have

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Speaker 1: a business that's been called one of the top Well

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Speaker 1: is one you and I chat the other day about

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Speaker 1: how do you even evaluate that? But it is regarded

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Speaker 1: as one of the best restaurants or top fifty in

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Speaker 1: the world. I don't know how many fucking restaurants there are,

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Speaker 1: well but let's just go with a shitload. Does that

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Speaker 1: make you feel proud or uneasy or like, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that's a great achievement or a great accolade at the

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Speaker 1: very least, But how does that sit with you?

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Speaker 3: It's a very odd thing for me, because you know

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Speaker 3: that there's never been the reason for the work. You know,

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Speaker 3: like I said, the work is about being with an

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Speaker 3: incredible team of people and serving an amazing group of

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Speaker 3: customers and doing this thing with all of your heart

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Speaker 3: and mind really, and there's other stuff that kind of

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Speaker 3: comes along, these things that other people bestow upon you,

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Speaker 3: but also can kind of remove very easily as well.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit odd because I've been very careful, Craig.

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Speaker 3: To sort of never attach an even my personal work

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Speaker 3: to these sorts of awards, and at different times I've

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Speaker 3: appreciated them, particularly in my early years. But you know,

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Speaker 3: you win something, if you let that go to your head,

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Speaker 3: it'll also destroy you. You know, if you think the

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Speaker 3: work's done and that there's effectively there's an awards ceremony,

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Speaker 3: you're anointed whatever you are, and then the next day

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Speaker 3: the work has to begin again. And so pretty early

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Speaker 3: on I learned that that wasn't the reason for it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how.

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Speaker 3: It makes me feel just kind of odd, Like like

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Speaker 3: we discussed yesterday, you know, how can you really say

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Speaker 3: what the top fifty restaurants in the world are, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's not really possible, actually, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: people that.

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Speaker 2: That don't get the attention that they should for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: I think it's quite I don't know if you did

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Speaker 1: that accidentally or intentionally or intuitively, but that that thing

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Speaker 1: not to attach your self worth or your identity to

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Speaker 1: the thing that you're good at, or like, you know,

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Speaker 1: to an award or a brand or a that's quite

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Speaker 1: smart because my experience is when people have their identity

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Speaker 1: intertwined with their accolades or their you know, the status

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Speaker 1: of their business or their career, at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: when that goes away, they're fucked because you know that

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Speaker 1: that thing that made them them that isn't there anymore,

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Speaker 1: and then they don't know who the fuck they are.

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Speaker 3: No, And I couldn't agree more or and it's something

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Speaker 3: to be so cautious of. I wrote a line recently

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Speaker 3: which I was proud of, which which which which says

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Speaker 3: most climbers are killed on the descent. And by that

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Speaker 3: I mean you know, actually physically on Everestore or any

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Speaker 3: other huge mountain that's you know, you're tied you on

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Speaker 3: the way down, that's when it gets to you run

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Speaker 3: out of oxygen or the storm overcomes you. But also

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Speaker 3: in that sense of like socially climbing or climbing the

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Speaker 3: ladder of fame and awards and accolades, nobody can ever

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Speaker 3: stay on top forever. And so if you don't have

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Speaker 3: some sort of central values to latch onto and to

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Speaker 3: lock onto that, and you don't if you're doing it

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Speaker 3: for the wrong reasons, you know, and they can never

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Speaker 3: be for fame.

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Speaker 2: Actually, because that's that's just just fleeting.

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Speaker 3: And and if you're not prepared for that to leave you,

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Speaker 3: like if you don't understand it, that's just temporary or

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Speaker 3: not even real, and then you're going to get really

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Speaker 3: lost when that goes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. I wrote a book years ago,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen years ago, one of my books,

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Speaker 1: and in this I have this pretend conversation with this dude,

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Speaker 1: which was really a reflection of many actual conversations. But

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Speaker 1: it goes something like, so I sit down with a client,

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Speaker 1: which I used to I used to own gyms and stuff,

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Speaker 1: which you know, And I'd sit down with people who'd

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Speaker 1: come in because they want to, you know, change their body,

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Speaker 1: their mindset, habits, behavior's outcome, health, blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: And I'd go, so, tell me about you, and then

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Speaker 1: they'd tell me about their business, or then they'd tell

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Speaker 1: me about their brand, or then they'd tell me about

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Speaker 1: their address where they live. Then that tell me about

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Speaker 1: their kids or that. I go, yeah, cool, that's all good.

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Speaker 1: But none of that is you tell me about you.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me about where you live, or what you drive,

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Speaker 1: or what you own, or what you earn, or what

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Speaker 1: your job is or where tell me about you. They

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Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck to say because they don't

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Speaker 1: know who they are beyond all those identifiers. You know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a philosophical kind of question, isn't it. It is?

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Speaker 2: And I imagine for a lot of people it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to answer.

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Speaker 3: But for me personally, you know, my wealth, you know,

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Speaker 3: my personal wealth is never like as a human, is

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Speaker 3: not attached to what I do at the restaurant. I

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Speaker 3: think I can apply my creativity to other things like

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Speaker 3: renovating a house, for example, which I've done multiple times,

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Speaker 3: or skateboarding.

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Speaker 2: And I've often said.

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Speaker 3: That this thing that I love doing, which is running

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Speaker 3: this restaurant and with these amazing people, that I never

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Speaker 3: let that die.

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Speaker 2: You know that I work to protect that.

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Speaker 3: But when the feeling, the euphoria from creating new things

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Speaker 3: at the restaurant is gone, I will stop doing it

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Speaker 3: and I will look.

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Speaker 2: To do something else.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I just think that, you know, it's just

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Speaker 3: a folly to link yourself to your occupation too much.

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Speaker 3: Try to limit yourself even in that way. I don't

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Speaker 3: think you can really grow if you're not really thinking

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Speaker 3: about who you are.

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Speaker 1: Do you run the restaurant yourself? Like, are you the

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Speaker 1: are you the day to day boss?

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Speaker 2: Yes? One of them? Yep, I'm the director, I guess.

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Speaker 3: I run it with my wife Kylie, so we co

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Speaker 3: run it. But we also have quite a big team.

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Speaker 3: We have forty employees, we have you know, a hitd chef,

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Speaker 3: we have a restaurant manager, we have more junior people,

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Speaker 3: and so there's a good group of us running it actually,

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Speaker 3: But yes, I am their day to day pretty much

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Speaker 3: every day. Still, it's down nineteenth year this year. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: you've got to love it.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's your what's your take on leadership? Because

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Speaker 1: I mean you got forty people, there's forty personalities, forty humans,

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Speaker 1: forty backstories, forty expectations, you know, psychology, physiology, emotions, sociology.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on leadership and how do you do it?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, I'll be honest with you.

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Speaker 3: In the early days, you know, I started to attic

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Speaker 3: here when I was twenty seven, and I was a

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Speaker 3: completely useless leader.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how to I don't know how.

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Speaker 3: To support people or prop people up or you know,

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Speaker 3: give them any kind of feedback, and so like I

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Speaker 3: really failed those early teams, you know. But there's something

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Speaker 3: that I absolutely linked becoming a great leader of something

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Speaker 3: I linked to I guess, the overall performance of the

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Speaker 3: business and not just the performance, but the well being

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Speaker 3: of the people there too. So in the last decade

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Speaker 3: OR worked really hard and one of the things on leadership,

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Speaker 3: but one of the things that I rise over everything

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Speaker 3: else is directness, respectful directness. Just tell people what you

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Speaker 3: need and what you think, do it in a way

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Speaker 3: that doesn't hurt them.

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Speaker 2: Do it in a way that they.

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Speaker 3: Know that you've got their personal growth in mind and

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Speaker 3: that what you're saying is more than benefiting the business,

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Speaker 3: but benefiting them long term too.

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Speaker 2: So I really acutely disliked bullshit.

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Speaker 3: So I will kind of sort of leader that will

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Speaker 3: work through the business to kind of eliminate any anything

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Speaker 3: that I think is bullshit that we're doing and not

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Speaker 3: direct because I want to kind of be as direct

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Speaker 3: as I can with our customers in our expression as

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Speaker 3: well creatively.

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Speaker 2: And there's a variety of.

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Speaker 3: Things and unusual kind of ways we go about bringing

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Speaker 3: this team together. But I always believe very very strongly

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Speaker 3: that empathy is the oldest sibling of performance. So we

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Speaker 3: need to have an empathetic workplace. That's not to say

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Speaker 3: that that stuff doesn't happen, or things don't go wrong,

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Speaker 3: or sometimes people might.

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Speaker 2: Have an argument or dislike each other. That's just human nature.

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Speaker 3: But I guess I'm really talking about eliminating toxic negativity,

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Speaker 3: you know, And so I'm pretty strict on that. Like,

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Speaker 3: you know, whatever's going on in your life, you know,

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Speaker 3: you need to still come to work with a super

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Speaker 3: positive attitude. Now, if you can't, of course, we're going

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Speaker 3: to support you and look after you and try to

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Speaker 3: help you. But really like your personal mental health and

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Speaker 3: your well being in an environment, in a job where

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Speaker 3: it's fair, that you're properly paid, that you're not getting

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Speaker 3: bullied or harassed. It's your responsibility if those things are straight,

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Speaker 3: you know, And and that begins and ends with me

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Speaker 3: as well. Right, So I can't come to work in

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Speaker 3: a shitty mood with a shitty attitude, because I'm asking

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Speaker 3: my team to come to work with a great attitude

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Speaker 3: and to bring it every day. So no, really, I

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Speaker 3: think the leader has absolutely got to live what they're breaching.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. It's I employed con what did

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Speaker 1: I employ about five hundred people over the years in

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Speaker 1: my gyms, and it was a constant juggling act of

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Speaker 1: psychology and sociology and practicality and trying to create that

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Speaker 1: trying to create a place where people want to be

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Speaker 1: ben You know, I do lots of corporate speaking now,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I ask bosses, managers' leaders

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Speaker 1: is do people want to be in this place? Do

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Speaker 1: people like coming here? I know there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: other questions after that, but if the answer to that

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Speaker 1: question is no, you've fucked.

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Speaker 2: So I could not agree more great.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's like people. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean you've got to be their best friend, but if

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Speaker 1: they don't kind of like you or respect you, that's tough.

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Speaker 1: And then if you've got a place of culture and

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Speaker 1: environment that people don't want to be in, fack, there's

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Speaker 1: lots of work to do. So yeah, and it's again

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Speaker 1: with different because you can say one thing to Sally

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Speaker 1: and she's cool, you say the same thing to Tiffany

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Speaker 1: because she's high maintenance and oh sorry, tif oh you

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Speaker 1: know it's not gonna it's not going to work. And

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Speaker 1: so you've got to navigate this myriad of complex kind

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Speaker 1: of social interactions as well as being tough and strong.

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Speaker 1: That's a real jug, yeah, actor.

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Speaker 2: It really is.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, I think the main thing

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Speaker 3: that people are listening here and wanting to be better

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Speaker 3: leaders and better in business, the main thing I would

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Speaker 3: say is to is to actually just try try to

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Speaker 3: improve yourself, try to improve your leadership and do it incrementally.

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Speaker 3: But it's pretty easy to think, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 3: a really shitty leader and I've got no hope. But

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Speaker 3: I would say, just try to change a small thing

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Speaker 3: one percent every day perhaps about what you're doing, and

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Speaker 3: over time and pretty quickly you will realize that you've

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Speaker 3: kind of revolutionized the culture.

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Speaker 2: To your point about the psychology of workplaces.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my wife, Kylie, who's really responsible so much

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Speaker 3: for the success of our business.

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Speaker 2: She's three quarters of the way through a psychology degree.

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Speaker 3: In no small part to basically deal with exactly what

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Speaker 3: you're saying. You know, humans are complicated in our once

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Speaker 3: and our needs and our desires and our emotion and

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Speaker 3: ups and downs, you know, and that's never going away,

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Speaker 3: no matter how the team you've got, no matter who

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Speaker 3: you select, that's always going to kind of be a constant.

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Speaker 3: But I would say that there's a rule that I

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Speaker 3: kind of apply and I think it's helpful. And I

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Speaker 3: learned this through coaching youth basketball through my son's team.

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Speaker 3: But I say, the low's never too low and the

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Speaker 3: high is never too high. And by that I mean

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Speaker 3: if you just kind of come through the middle as

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Speaker 3: a leader and you don't overreact when there's a low

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Speaker 3: point in the business or something goes wrong, and if

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Speaker 3: you don't over celebrate something that you've done really well,

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Speaker 3: like just kind of keep it in the middle.

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Speaker 2: I think there's sort of a security in people for that,

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Speaker 2: you know, like with your.

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Speaker 3: Team, that the leaders not over celebrating the winds and

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Speaker 3: not and not doubling down and going super aggressive when

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Speaker 3: things go wrong, because they will go wrong, and they

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Speaker 3: go wrong in every business.

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Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is is from.

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Speaker 3: The outside people look in it, a successful organization can

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Speaker 3: go well, everything must just be perfectly every day, And

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Speaker 3: the reality is nothing is further from the truth.

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Speaker 2: And every successful organization is.

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Speaker 3: Really finding the same problems as any as any other one.

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Speaker 3: And the reality is it's just sort of how you

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Speaker 3: deal with those problems and who you deal with them with.

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Speaker 3: And also think just lastly, you know, not not repeating

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Speaker 3: those same mistakes as a pretty big one on leadership.

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Speaker 3: You know, if something goes wrong, analyze it and you go,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I'm not going to end up back

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Speaker 3: there because that sucked for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I read a book years ago which you

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Speaker 1: you're way younger than me, which is fucking annoying. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so called the myth. Have you ever heard of that book?

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Speaker 1: I have not known? Buck Off all right, anyway. Now

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Speaker 1: it came out the same time as the Bible anyway,

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Speaker 1: so wow, the Old Testament New Testament was proceeded the

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Speaker 1: New Testament. But anyway, a guy called Gerber wrote that,

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Speaker 1: Michael Gerber, I think it was. And the e myth

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Speaker 1: is about this idea, Mike Ben that you've got to

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Speaker 1: work on the business. Not you've got to work in

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Speaker 1: the business, but to be able to build it and

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Speaker 1: develop it, you've got to be able to step awongeally.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to be objective about the thing that you're

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Speaker 1: in the middle of. And you know, I've always immersed

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Speaker 1: in my business, which sometimes gives me a really good, visceral,

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Speaker 1: subjective experience of what's going on. But it's only when

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Speaker 1: I step back into the macro and out of the

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Speaker 1: micro that I can kind of have that bigger picture vision.

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Speaker 1: My clumsy, long winded, fucking question is, in terms of

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Speaker 1: your career and Attica and all the things that you do,

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Speaker 1: how much of that is kind of big picture planning,

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Speaker 1: macro strategic, long term timeline projection, and how much is

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Speaker 1: you just in the middle of it being instinctive and intuitive.

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Speaker 3: It's probably ninety nine percent of me just being in

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Speaker 3: the middle of it, living in the moment, knowing and

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Speaker 3: kind of understanding that the moment, like right now, I'm

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Speaker 3: You're the only thing I can focus on right now,

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Speaker 3: this conversation, this interview. I'm not worried about what's happening

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Speaker 3: after this. That's really kind of how I go. I

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Speaker 3: really really want to ring the most out of my

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Speaker 3: life that I can, and I've found by absolutely focusing

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Speaker 3: on every day and just living it to the fullest

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Speaker 3: and trying to get the most out of it that.

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Speaker 2: I've been a lot happier.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a great forward planner, and I'm not really

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Speaker 3: tremendous at reflecting on the past either, because I've always

401
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Speaker 3: kind of wanted to evolve. But I'm fortunate in our

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Speaker 3: business that I do have other people who are making

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Speaker 3: those longer term plans.

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Speaker 2: But for me, a long term plan is a month.

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Speaker 3: You know, I kind of don't want to talk about, like,

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Speaker 3: unless it's something that's obviously like critical, I don't really

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Speaker 3: want to talk about it, you know.

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Speaker 2: I kin't want to talk about what are we going

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Speaker 2: to do today again kind of idea. You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So here's a philosophical question to feel free to

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Speaker 1: jump in. I feel like you might have a question

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Speaker 1: for the great man. My research is around this thing

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I mentioned to you when we

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Speaker 1: chatted the other day called metapception, which is essentially your

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Speaker 1: ability to understand the Ben experience for others. So the

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Speaker 1: question at the core of my research is what's it

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Speaker 1: like being around me for the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: but my wife, for my kids, for my team, for strangers,

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Speaker 1: for my customers. What do you think the Ben experience

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Speaker 1: is like for others?

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Speaker 2: What a fascinating thing to study.

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Speaker 3: Great I think that's amazing that you've done that, because

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Speaker 3: I think so few leaders actually think about how they're

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Speaker 3: affecting other people, either positively or negatively, and I think

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Speaker 3: we all, to.

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Speaker 2: Some degree affect other people positively negatively.

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Speaker 3: I'm acutely aware of of my influence over my team

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Speaker 3: and of others, and that's why I do call myself

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Speaker 3: a leader for my industry, because I think that especially

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Speaker 3: chef's chefs will do anything for each other. We are

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Speaker 3: mad generally, right, like, we have a history of working

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Speaker 3: insane hours and being put through, you know, various forms

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Speaker 3: of kind of torture by our industry and by our

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Speaker 3: employees historically, and so I'm acutely aware of that history

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Speaker 3: and also of my own personal history about how.

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Speaker 2: I've I've gone through that too.

437
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Speaker 3: At the age of forty, I'd already worked the retirement age.

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Speaker 2: I'd already worked the amount of hours that are somebody.

439
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: Retiring at sixty five had, you know, And I did

440
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 3: reflect upon that. You know, I probably didn't think that

441
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: was that well, that's great, you know something. It wasn't

442
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: paid for them, and so that obviously makes you think

443
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: about your own, your staff's experience, but also just of

444
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 3: your influence on them. So what I'm kind of what

445
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 3: I'm kind of trying to say to you, is that

446
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: I am really mindful of my own ambition with my

447
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 3: employees because there are times literally if I asked them

448
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 3: to walk up a cliff with me, they probably would,

449
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 3: you know. So I need to be self aware in

450
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 3: that way. There's little things that I do, I suppose

451
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 3: and little rules that kind of I personally have with

452
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: the staff. And one of them is very simple, and

453
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 3: I think it's it's not an exceptional rule, but it's

454
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 3: just say say hello, how are you to every single

455
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: person in the building every single day. Yeah, And so,

456
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 3: and not in a formulatic way, not going around hi, no,

457
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 3: actually genuinely just take thirty seconds.

458
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: So just ask hey, how are you?

459
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 3: And you know, occasionally somebody will say, you know what,

460
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: I'm not great, and I'll say, well, hey, you know

461
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: what's going on?

462
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: You know, and now they may tell me or they

463
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: may say, no, I'm going to be all right. I'm

464
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: just I'm just having a bit of a day. But

465
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 2: I've got my you know, I focus on the job.

466
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 3: And other times, you know, we'll have a coffee and

467
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: we'll chat about it, you know, because I guess I'm

468
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 3: one of the older members of the team. You know,

469
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 3: I've been through most of the struggles that that people

470
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: go through.

471
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so i'd really try to be aware.

472
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 3: I don't think you can ever be fully completely aware

473
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: of how you are. But one thing I strive not

474
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 3: to be is ever harsh, because I think you can

475
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 3: really crush somebody, particularly somebody that looks up to you,

476
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 3: just by talking to.

477
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: Them the wrong way.

478
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: And so if I ever do that, which is very rare,

479
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 3: and I can think of an example in the last

480
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 3: three years where I was actually doing an interview but

481
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: like this in the office and a young chef is

482
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: a really lovely person. Came into the office, came in

483
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: behind me, and he sort of just started talking to

484
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 3: me over my shoulder and ask me questions, and I said,

485
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: can you just just give me a second, you know,

486
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: And I was just kind of like frustrated and a

487
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: bit annoyed, but he's he's such a genuinely beautiful person,

488
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: and so I huffed at him a little bit and

489
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: I said, oh god, you know, that would have bloody

490
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 3: crushed him a bit, you know. So a couple of

491
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 3: hours later, or an hour later, after I finished that call,

492
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 3: I went in and I said, hey, listen, I'm really

493
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: sorry about that.

494
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, no, no, there was nothing to

495
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: be sorry about. I shouldn't approach it.

496
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: And I said, no, no, I didn't live up to

497
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: my own expectations. You're a really great person. I'm really

498
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: sorry about that. And he sort of beamed, you know,

499
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 3: and we both knew that was the truth.

500
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: You know, that's amazing, well one mate, and I'm not

501
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: pissing in your pocket. That's amazing awareness, situational self awareness

502
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: and also social intelligence to know that that's the right

503
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: thing to do, and humility to be able to go no, mate,

504
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm the problem. Like that's so. I listened to this

505
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: podcast the other day and there were these two two

506
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: people talking and they said this. One of them said

507
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 1: this interesting thing. This so I forget this psychologist. And

508
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: she said something like, for all of the problems that

509
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: you have in your life, you're there for one hundred

510
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: percent of them. That's incredible, right, And also for all

511
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: the dysfunctional relationships and problems in relationships you've had, you're

512
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: the only common denominator.

513
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: Right. Oh my goodness.

514
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that's not to say that

515
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: that person's always the problem, but it's like, it's funny

516
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: how when people talk about shit, they really go, ah,

517
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: this is going on in my life with this bloody Ben,

518
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: Me and Ben. And by the way, I'm the problem.

519
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: Nobody says that no.

520
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: No.

521
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: So that awareness, that awareness that you had to go no,

522
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: made one hundred percent me And that's great and rare.

523
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 2: Thank you.

524
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think the bucks has stop with

525
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 3: me ultimately, you know, if we succeed or fail, it's

526
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: come and going to be on me.

527
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: You know.

528
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: I've had some really great teachers in that way though, too.

529
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: And I'll give you this example of this friend Miriam,

530
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: who we were having this conversation. She's from South Sudan

531
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 3: and we're having this conversation at her place once about

532
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 3: this guy that had kind of come in to her

533
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: garden and just sort of started ranting about how terrible

534
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 3: the garden was.

535
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: And we were having a bit of a laugh about.

536
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: It, and she was saying that being negative is a

537
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 3: full time job, and she was joking about how his

538
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: realist person was really putting.

539
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: It back into it. You know, I really committed to it, like.

540
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 3: And I like to have kind of examples of people,

541
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: you know, who find kind of culpability their own culpability

542
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: and kind of almost any situation. And for Miriam, you know,

543
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: had been this experience of racism that was so pervasive

544
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: when when there was this rhetoric in the media about

545
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: African games, and she is a migrant, and she said, well,

546
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: what could I do about this?

547
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 2: You know?

548
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 3: And she decided that she could educate people, that she

549
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: could bring people into a home and teach her about

550
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: her culture. And I said, oh my god, you're being

551
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: subjected to this horrible, horrible racist trope, and yet you

552
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 3: are going I'm going to try to find some small

553
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 3: solution about it. I'm like, well, what example, what could

554
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: I possibly have to stop me from not finding some

555
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 3: culpability in any kind of aspect of my life. I think,

556
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: you know, we're seldom ever completely innocent. I would say

557
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: that she was completely innocent, but yeah, she is like,

558
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: well I need to do something about it, you know.

559
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. It is amazing, and it is it's

560
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: so easy to be all about problems, and it's so

561
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: easy to be all about blame and transference and avoidance.

562
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: But to be able to go you know, it's like

563
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: when I talk about which people get uncomfortable with. But

564
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: I was a morbidly obese kid, right I was, I

565
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: was over I was like ninety five kilos when I

566
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: was fourteen. I'm eighty five kilos now, and I was

567
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: six inches shorter and my name at school was Jumbo

568
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. Right, But yeah, but I talk

569
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: about like I created that, you know. It's like and yeah,

570
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: I was a kid, but I ate my way into that,

571
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: and at some stage I needed to take responsibility and go, well, look,

572
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: nobody's making me sit on the couch, nobody's making me

573
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: eat all the fucking cake that I love nobody's, you know,

574
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,239
Speaker 1: and that being being able to be self aware and

575
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: responsible without the self loathing bend. You know, I think

576
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: where you're you're just taking ownership without beating yourself up.

577
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: There's a big there's a big space between I could

578
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: do better and I'm a fucking idiot. I always get

579
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: this wrong, you know, there's.

580
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: A big space. Old line thinking is hard. Blaming as easy,

581
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 3: isn't it, you know? And I mean that's a you know,

582
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: that's a profound personal experience that you've had as well, Craig.

583
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: You know that's that I can I can relate to

584
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: that on some levels.

585
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: You know. It was also an overweight teenager. You know,

586
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: it was at one hundred and three kilos at one point,

587
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: and you know, I went down into the late seventies

588
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 3: and now I'm at about age six, and you know,

589
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: I think also, like for men, it's not like something

590
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: that it's easy to talk about our weight or our

591
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 3: body image, e the you know, something that I've kind

592
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: of had to come.

593
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: To terms with in the last couple of years. I've

594
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: always struggled with it.

595
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: So I really.

596
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: Sympathized with you, you know, and understand where you're coming from.

597
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: Well, I grew up very much with digressing, but fuck it,

598
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: this is where we're going. Like, I grew up very

599
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: much identifying with my body, you know, and I thought

600
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: because I was, you know, that was my name. My

601
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: name was my jumbo and you know all that stuff

602
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: which my listeners have heard too many times. But you know,

603
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: being picked last for sporting teams and all those things

604
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: that come with being unathletic and unfit and fat, and

605
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, and the social stuff and the emotional stuff

606
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: and the physiological stuff and the practical stuff, and then

607
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: it's hard when you Then I got in shape, like you,

608
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: very fit, very strong, very lean, started to become, probably

609
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: in an unhealthy way, obsessive and all that shit. But

610
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: then then I really started to identify myself capital s

611
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: self with my body, and they became indistinguishable. Where I

612
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: went well and if I looked good, I felt better,

613
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: and if I look put on two kilos, I felt shit.

614
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: And if someone complimented my appearance, I felt good. And

615
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: so I was always seeking approval and love and connection

616
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: and validation through this thing that I lived in. Right,

617
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: That's that's a journey, and that's a journey like a

618
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: lot of people are on I think.

619
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent, such a tough one. You know,

620
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: it's so difficult.

621
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you and I got through it. I'm still

622
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: a work in progress though, I'm still a fuck with

623
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: around food. Hey, I wanted to ask you a little

624
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: bit about dealing with pressure, like you were talking about

625
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: the the craziness that goes on in kitchens. When I

626
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: was a kid, my parents owned a restaurant and sell

627
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: in a restaurant, and I remember the the interesting chefs,

628
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: you know if they were interesting and talented, artistic, creative,

629
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: high maintenance some of them. But tell me about your

630
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: the way that you deal with pressure and expectations and

631
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: all the you know, the behind the scenes drama that

632
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: can be in a very high profile, very successful because

633
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: when people are coming to Attaka, they expect awesome, and

634
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: so you've got to do Yeah.

635
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: No, there's a great question.

636
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: There is a lot of pressure, and the way that

637
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: I've dealt with that pressure myself, this is probably not

638
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 3: quite the same as the way that the staff have

639
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: to deal with it. The way that I've dealt with

640
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: it is to and without wanting to say on egotist

641
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: school or arrogant is to sort of understand that I'm

642
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: the expert.

643
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 4: In this and that I've dedicated my life to this

644
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 4: craft completely since the time that I was a small child,

645
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: that I've worked the seventy five eighty l weeks, that

646
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 4: I've struggled and built this thing through determination and through

647
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: my hands and through my mind.

648
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: Therefore, I set higher standard for myself than anybody else

649
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: could for me. Does that make sense to you.

650
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: Yes, So that's sort of just like that's not something

651
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 3: I've really shared with anybody before, but that's kind of

652
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: my mentality. And that's not to say that I always

653
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: get it right or that I'm always perfect, but genuinely

654
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: I said my standard.

655
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: For the team.

656
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: You're completely correct how our customers come with really really

657
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: high expectations. You know, some people come expecting, you know,

658
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: a near religious experience, and that's actually not something to

659
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 3: believe it or.

660
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 2: Not that we can offer.

661
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: But but it doesn't mean that we that we won't

662
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 3: die trying. You know, we are completely committed to two

663
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: excellence for our guests, but for our staff, we want

664
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: that that excellence to be manageable. And traditionally, as I mentioned,

665
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 3: kitchens are ruled through fear, you know, and and sort

666
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: of they've been very misogynistic, male dominated places.

667
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: You know, that's a fact.

668
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: And they still are largely the you know, women still

669
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: don't have the same opportunities as men in hospitality in

670
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: regards to running kitchens.

671
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 2: So that I think we just have to say that

672
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: and and understand it.

673
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: But they've been ruled with an iron First, there is

674
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 3: a system of hierarchy that comes out.

675
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: Of France and kitchens, and and you dare not.

676
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: Make a mistakeless or put a foot wrong, or the

677
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: fist will come down upon you, sometimes actually physically, but

678
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 3: often mentally.

679
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: So there've been places of abuse and fear.

680
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: And to me, you know, the idea that a kitchen

681
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 3: can't be kind and high performance is kind of counterintuitive

682
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: to performance.

683
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: To me, I just I.

684
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: Could that never sat with me. I came from the

685
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 3: back country in New Zealand. I did endure and experience

686
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: kitchens of this kind. But to me, they were never great,

687
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: They were never doing meaningful work. And and so for me,

688
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 3: how we deal with that that pressure and is that

689
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: we try to eliminate that kind of fear. You know,

690
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: that's we don't have people running the kitchen who are ranting,

691
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: yelling or abusing our teams. They are calm during service,

692
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 3: and there's always catastrophes in kitchens. A chef's life is

693
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 3: in a state of fluid failure.

694
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: You know.

695
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: It's not if things will go wrong, it's when and

696
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: how often and will anybody fucking notice?

697
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: That's literally how it is, right.

698
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: And so we're trying to fix everything as we fuck

699
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: everything up, and we're trying to hide it.

700
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 2: Right, I've been truthful here, you know. You know it's percentages.

701
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: Maybe our idea of a fuck up is not the

702
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 3: same as a normal person's, but yet there it is.

703
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 3: And I think if you don't count those little percentages,

704
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 3: then then there is a tangible effects. You've got to

705
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: be really disciplined. But so we're hustling and trying to

706
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: just working so hard to just hold it all together

707
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: kind of every night. But if we if and this

708
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 3: is the same in any kind of high performing kitchen

709
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: in the world, now, if that same kitchen is run

710
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: by fear, then what those cooks will do is they

711
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: will hide those mistakes. And we implore our people to

712
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: bring the mistakes to us immediately and then calmly as

713
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: a team, we can figure out how to fix that quickly,

714
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: because whatever catastrophe there is in life, it requires calm

715
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 3: and persistent attention to fix. If you're losing your shit,

716
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 3: if you're losing control of yourself, you're just making things worse.

717
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: And you just got to think straight and think about this.

718
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: Problem about how you're going to overcome it.

719
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: Now.

720
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 3: If it's a really big one and it requires some

721
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: level of this this one, then that can be done

722
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 3: post the mistake in a calm manner, not in the moment,

723
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 3: but typically in kitchens it's.

724
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: Been you've bucked up.

725
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: Now I'm screaming and spinning in your face, and you

726
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: feel terrified and ashamed, and you've lost your dignity. So

727
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: I think it's really important for our people not to

728
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 3: lose their dignity within the mistakes that they will absolutely

729
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: make as I make them.

730
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: That's such a such a high level understanding from a

731
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: sociological I don't mean sound like a bloody scientist, but psychological,

732
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: emotional cultural like that awareness of it, apart from all

733
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: the food stuff and the cooking and the business stuff

734
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: and the keeping the you know, the customers or your

735
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: guests satisfied on top of that understanding how to optimize

736
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: or try to optimize the dynamics and the energy in

737
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: that cauldron. That's some high level shit that you just articulated.

738
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Most people don't even think like that.

739
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That means a lot.

740
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: I would just say as simply as this, though it

741
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: comes from an understanding that humans don't want to do

742
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: a bad job.

743
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 2: You have to have that kind of understanding as the leader.

744
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 3: Nobody's coming to the kitchen today to fuck up? No,

745
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: why would they do that? Like, I really don't think

746
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 3: I've ever met somebody even like the employees that haven't

747
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: worked out that truly in their heart came to do

748
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 3: a bad job today.

749
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, So outside of outside of business for

750
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: a minute, how do you manage you? How do you

751
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: stay focused mentally, emotionally healthy, excited, curious? Like what it

752
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about you? How you kind

753
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: of optimize yourself or you don't think of it like that?

754
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 2: No, I do think of it.

755
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: I sort of have a philosophy that and this is

756
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: just you know, some people will walk.

757
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: At this and go that's ridiculous, But this is just

758
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: for me, you know.

759
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying as I detail this, that, this,

760
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: this is what I think other people should do, But

761
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: this just works for me. I just I just try

762
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: to apply one really high standard to everything that I do.

763
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 3: And I don't differ that standard whether I'm working or

764
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 3: whether I'm at home. So if I'm parenting, I'm sort

765
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: of trying to do it at the same level that

766
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: I would run Attica. If I'm skateboarding, you know, I'm

767
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 3: not a very good skateboarder, but like, I'm trying to

768
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 3: do it to the best of my ability, you know,

769
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: if I'm I love, you know, making things, I'm making

770
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 3: stuff up, you know, crafting stuff for I just try to.

771
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: Do it at a high level. I just find it

772
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: easier to do it this way.

773
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 3: Then I don't have to sort of lower or raise

774
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: my standard for things. Am I always meeting it? Of course?

775
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 3: Not like am I beating myself up when I don't

776
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 3: like no, no, I'm not, no, But but I'm trying.

777
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm not a good example of somebody

778
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 3: that kind of makes time for themselves. I will pack

779
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: everything and that I can, and sometimes too much, and then,

780
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 3: you know, like anybody'll occasionally complain to myself about it.

781
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 2: But but realistically, like it's on me. You know, I

782
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: have wonderful friends.

783
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 3: I think that that's so crucial to surround yourself with

784
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: with people who really genuinely care about you for you,

785
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: and like back to this earlier conversation around not for

786
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: what you do or or how famous you are, but

787
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: for you and.

788
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: People that see that see that value in you. I

789
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: think it's so crucial.

790
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: And those friends you know, have helped me through the

791
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: best at times and the worst times.

792
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, you need that. You need that

793
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: sounding board sometimes and I call it, I use this

794
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: term called an unreasonable friend, and it's someone that loves you,

795
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: cares about you, but will tell you sometimes what you

796
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: need to here, not necessarily what you want to hear.

797
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: Best guy a friend, right, you know where it's likely

798
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: I'd sell people. I don't need a fan club. I

799
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: don't need you to tell me I'm amazing when I'm

800
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: being a dickhead. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help me,

801
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: and it's not true, you know. And I think that

802
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: ability to be able to be okay with getting things

803
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: right and not right and not beating yourself up. And

804
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: I think also because thinking when you're talking about how

805
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: much you work, Like I work a lot, TIF works

806
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, I'm full time work, full time study,

807
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: seven podcasts a week, one hundred and twenty speaking gigs

808
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: a year, consulting, lots of shit, right, But all the

809
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: stuff that I do is somewhere between I enjoy it

810
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: and I fucking love it, Like I don't do anything

811
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: I hate. Right.

812
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: So, in.

813
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: The corporate speaking, coaching, mentoring workshop space, you know, they're

814
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: for one hundred years, not really, probably fifty years, they've

815
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: been talking about work life balance, And for me, it's

816
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: a redundant concept because it kind of suggests that there's

817
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: a like almost a number, like a balance that we

818
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: get this much work, Ben and this much not work,

819
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: and then when we get the scales right, and it's

820
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: like it's a numerical thing, and I'm like no, because

821
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: you might do twenty hours a week, which is not

822
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: many hours, but you fucking hate every hour and that

823
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: is really bad for you mentally, emotionally, physically, versus you

824
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: do eighty hours, which again I'm not suggesting neither's Ben,

825
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: but you might do eighty hours a week periodically of

826
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: shit that just fucking excites you, stimulates you, grows you,

827
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: gives you joy, pleasure, Like right now, I'm you're I'm

828
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: not pissing in your pocket. I love you, You're awesome.

829
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: I could hang out with you. This is my job,

830
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: Like I'm talking to you. This is ridiculous. This is

831
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: fun for me. This is for me. But this is

832
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: one of the components of my work. And you know,

833
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: when you do shit that I know, people go when

834
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: you do what you love, you never work a day

835
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: in your life, and that's kind of cliche and not

836
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: always possible all the time. But yeah, like for me,

837
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that I do, and I think probably the

838
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: stuff that you do, despite the periodic stress and anxiety,

839
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's a positive like it's it's

840
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: a net result, you know.

841
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And sometimes even when it's negative, it's kind of positive,

842
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: you know, Like, and I couldn't agree more with what

843
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 3: you're saying.

844
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: And I'm not a matter.

845
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 3: I hope nobody listening thinks for him, he has to

846
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: work so much. No, I'm choosing that, you know, just

847
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: like you know, I chose to turn up for this

848
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 3: interview on time.

849
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: You know, But but I really think, like.

850
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 3: You know, for me, it's kind of trying to I

851
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: don't differentiate really between I don't really do work and

852
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: I don't really do home.

853
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: I just kind of do life.

854
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 3: And maybe that sounds a little cliche, but I really

855
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:11,479
Speaker 3: don't like the strong demarcation between work and the rest

856
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: of life. Certainly don't like the idea of having to

857
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 3: work for the rest of life. Like I just think

858
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 3: that the work part is just too big a part

859
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: of life for it not to be enjoyable, at least

860
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 3: on some level. You know, maybe it's not possible for

861
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: every person in the world to find as much joy

862
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: in their work as you clearly do, and I clearly

863
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: do it, even though I would really hope that for people,

864
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: you know, But I would say that trying to find

865
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: fun and stuff and joy in it is just central

866
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: to happiness. And I'll give you a Philly example from yesterday.

867
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: We found this enormous cactus on Facebook marketplace.

868
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: It's like three point eight meters tall, it's got multiple heads,

869
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 3: it's hundred kilos.

870
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: I spent six.

871
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: Hours dragging it from this guy's backyard to get it

872
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: on as Bunning's higher.

873
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: You right, it's absolutely insane.

874
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: Like I am prepared to do things that are ridiculous

875
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: if that's not clear yet.

876
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: You know, you know there's people who can do shit

877
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: like that, right, you know you don't want to personally

878
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: do that yourself, you dickhead.

879
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 3: I'm actually going to say, I don't know if there

880
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 3: is in this case, because nobody would be stupid enough

881
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 3: to move this flip and plant, and they couldn't sell it.

882
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: It was quite cheap. It's beautiful cactus. Anyway. The story

883
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: is a battle, in a battle, in a battle to

884
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: get it to our house.

885
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 3: I get it off the you our fantastic chefs, and

886
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 3: they have to you know, they come up to help me,

887
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 3: which thank god, we thought we were going to die

888
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 3: as we stood it up. I get it in the ground,

889
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 3: I stake it. It looks amazing. All the neighbors are

890
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: very happy. And then the wind come on Monday, and

891
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: I didn't know how long it would take the route, and

892
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 3: I had a state for a month old that's probably

893
00:46:58,920 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 3: going to be okay.

894
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: I removed the state. The wind blows the thing over.

895
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 3: Now, that same day, i'd been to the doctor who

896
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 3: told me that I tore a tendon in my knee

897
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 3: moving that fucking cactus. So you can imagine how that

898
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 3: made me feel right like, kind of very depressed, and

899
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 3: I've been told I can't bend over and lift stuff

900
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 3: at the moment for a bit. The knee's going to

901
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: be fine anyway. In a fantastic name this long story,

902
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 3: but I'm going to quickly wind it up. Fantastic neighbor

903
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 3: rang me and said, I've got six builders renovating in

904
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 3: the front of our house. I'd like to send them

905
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: over to help you pick up your cactus. And so

906
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 3: the builders came over. And I've been around. I grew

907
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 3: up on building sites. My father and my uncle builders,

908
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 3: and there were such nice people and we had such

909
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: a good time, and we were just making jokes about

910
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 3: eating cactus and it was such.

911
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:46,439
Speaker 2: A joyful thing.

912
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 3: The six of us working out how to pick up

913
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: flip and cactus and put it back in the ground.

914
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 3: Took us about thirty minutes. We all shook hands, they

915
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 3: all joked about how now I owed them a meal

916
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: at Attica.

917
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: And it was the highlight of my day picking up

918
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: a silly cactus. You know, joyful, trying to find that.

919
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: I just try to find the joy and everything.

920
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: You know, one hundred mate, I could talk to you

921
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: for a long time I haven't even spoke to you

922
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: about art or bikes or music or all the other

923
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: things that you're good at and into. But maybe we can,

924
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: Maybe we can reconvene it a later date. Do you

925
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: want to point do you want to point anyone towards anything? Oh?

926
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: Did I forget that you're writing a book? Have you

927
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: just written a book?

928
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: I have written a book. Yes, tell me about the book.

929
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: Tell us about the Book's called Uses for Obsession.

930
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 3: And it's out on the first of October in Australia

931
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 3: and the UK. It's a book about the search for

932
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: the meaning and everything. It's kind of a memoir meets manifesto.

933
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 3: It's searing, hopefully, it's hilarious. It tells a bunch of

934
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: brutally honest stories. And you know, I'm really excu it.

935
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 3: I've spent the last two years writing it. Writing is

936
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 3: one of my greatest pleasures. Yeah, it's it's out soon.

937
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: It's got three recipes for bolonnes in it, and I

938
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 3: invite the reader to join my bolonnaise cult and to

939
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 3: progress through the cult. They've got to make these three recipes,

940
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 3: starting with really basic, kind of beginner bolonnaise, then kind

941
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: of a mid range one then like expert level.

942
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: So that's my sales. That's my sales, pitch.

943
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: I love a good cult. Just tell me the name

944
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: of the book again, uses for obsession. I love it,

945
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: such a clever name and two uses for obsession? Is

946
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: it so it's out on October one in all good

947
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: and shit bookstores. Is it going to be on audio

948
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: as well?

949
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah?

950
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: And I rated the audiobook myself about six weeks ago.

951
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 3: Was a hell of an experience.

952
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: How many days did that take you?

953
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 3: Six six hour days and about six hours of prep

954
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: on either side?

955
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: And so what is the end product? How many hours

956
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: is the audio book?

957
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: I think it's about eight and a half. I haven't

958
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: actually heard the whole thing yet. It is a fascinating,

959
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 3: fascinating experience. Yeah, I don't believe how many how many?

960
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 3: How I mispronounced so many words you would never imagine,

961
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: like you've been called out by the producer every thirty seconds.

962
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: Say that again, that's hilarious. The book's called uses for obsession. Mate.

963
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: It's been really nice to chat to you and get

964
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: to know you a little bit, and I would love

965
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: it if you would come back. We'll say goodbye fair

966
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: But for the moment, Ben, thanks for being on the show.

967
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you.

968
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Greg, and to really appreciate you guys.