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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Fatty Harps, it's Craig Athney Harper,

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Speaker 1: It's the Youth Project. It's Easter Monday. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I should be more religious and spiritual than I currently am.

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Speaker 1: But in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne, it's nine thirty

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Speaker 1: five am and a lot of you are out and about.

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Speaker 1: It's a public holiday in Melbourne. It's very quiet in

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Speaker 1: the thriving metropolis that I lived. This morning. I was

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Speaker 1: up walking around suburban suburban Hampton like the ninja that

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Speaker 1: I am, and there wasn't another human to be seen,

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Speaker 1: just me and the footpath or the sidewalk, as my

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Speaker 1: guest would call it. And speaking of my guest, Hi, buddy,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: No good to see you, Craig. Guess happy Easter is

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Speaker 2: in order?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you said that, and I'm with you. You're

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Speaker 1: not a particularly eastery family. It's just a kind of

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Speaker 1: a is it a I imagine it's a long weekend

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Speaker 1: over there. Do you call them public holidays? Is that's

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Speaker 1: what it's called or something else?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Pretty much. And a lot of things are closed today,

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Speaker 2: even some of the bigger stores. That was kind of

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Speaker 2: a surprise, But it's nice to see that they are

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Speaker 2: giving their employees time with their families and you know,

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Speaker 2: a spiritual outlet to go celebrate Easter, or if they

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Speaker 2: don't celebrate such a thing, just to have a nice,

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Speaker 2: pleasant day off. It was gorgeous weather today, so that

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Speaker 2: helped a lot too.

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Speaker 1: What's your I know we're going to talk about something

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Speaker 1: other than this today, but before we open that door,

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Speaker 1: what's the doctor bill? Off switch? Like? Do you I don't.

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Speaker 1: You don't seem like someone who gets overly stressed, but

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Speaker 1: I could be wrong, But where do you? Where do

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Speaker 1: you kind of chill out? And how do you turn off?

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Speaker 2: Well? I have a switch on the back of my

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Speaker 2: neck right here. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually a dial, so

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Speaker 2: you can like turn it down and I'll get real mellow,

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Speaker 2: turn it up and yeah, I'll just go. But you mean, like,

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Speaker 2: how do I chill out? What do I do for

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Speaker 2: to react? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Like do you well, one, do you get anxious?

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Speaker 1: Do you get stressed or not so much?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I used to when I was younger that that

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Speaker 2: was you know, science. Being a scientist is a pretty

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Speaker 2: stressful career, especially in the States, when you have you know,

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Speaker 2: your currency in life, your currency in your job is

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Speaker 2: generating papers and grant research funding and then being productive

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Speaker 2: on that. And sometimes science isn't productive because your hypotheses

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Speaker 2: are just bad guesses, or they could have been good guesses,

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Speaker 2: but the data surprises you. So you have to run

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Speaker 2: this constant treadmill of trying to keep up and being

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Speaker 2: really super productive. And you know, that's that wears on

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Speaker 2: you after a while, and you have you know, you're

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Speaker 2: a manager of a lab. So if you don't get

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Speaker 2: grant funding, you have to tell all those people, sometimes students, sorry,

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Speaker 2: we can't keep the lights on. You know, we're gonna

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Speaker 2: have to shut down, or at least close down temporarily.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's incredibly stressful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people wouldn't think of that dumb in some way,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people wouldn't even think that that's

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Speaker 1: a thing, like you've, No, they don't.

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Speaker 2: They take it for granted that scientists have these guaranteed jobs.

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Speaker 2: But even with tenure, if you are not productive and

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Speaker 2: generating research funding, there are mechanisms now in place that

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Speaker 2: can you know, either reduce your salary or even get

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Speaker 2: you dismissed from the university.

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Speaker 1: That kind of makes the idea of tenure redundant, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the definition has certainly been eroded over time,

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Speaker 2: and that's because there are some bad apples in the bunch.

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Speaker 2: There are some that take advantage of the process. You know,

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Speaker 2: once they get tenure, they slack off and you know,

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Speaker 2: don't pull their own weight. So I can see the incentive,

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Speaker 2: you know, for cracking down on it. But the real

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Speaker 2: purpose of tenure is also to provide academic freedom. It

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Speaker 2: gives you job security so that if you say or

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Speaker 2: research something controversial, your career is protected. And that serves

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Speaker 2: everyone because you know, it allows truth seekers to do

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Speaker 2: their thing. So, you know, I respect the tenure process.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important it should be maintained. But then again,

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Speaker 2: on the flip side, you do have people who take

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Speaker 2: advantage of it.

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Speaker 1: It must be hard at the level that you're at,

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Speaker 1: and then the kind of the sphere that you play

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Speaker 1: in where you know, like you're still a human, you're

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Speaker 1: still emotional, you still have certain ideas that will work

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Speaker 1: out and won't work out. I don't mean this so

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Speaker 1: much with you personally, but I feel like some of

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Speaker 1: the people that I talk to, their identity is very

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Speaker 1: much intertwined with how right they are in their thinking,

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Speaker 1: like this, this is the way this particular thing works,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's it. Like I'm unequivocally right about this,

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Speaker 1: so therefore any other data is just noise and where right,

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Speaker 1: you're wrong. You know, I think that like the idea

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Speaker 1: of science being this totally objective, pure, unimpacted by human

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Speaker 1: folly is it's a good idea. But in the real world,

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Speaker 1: scientists are all humans. Scientists have all got to pay

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Speaker 1: the bills. Scientists have all got bias and flaws and emotions,

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Speaker 1: and so in the middle of all of that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's trying to navigate the complexity of being a human

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Speaker 1: producing this stuff that is influent that is not influenced

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Speaker 1: by my humanity. That's a tricky road.

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Speaker 2: It is, and it takes a certain personality. It takes

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Speaker 2: someone who has a great deal of intellectual curiosity and

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Speaker 2: an equal amount of humility, because a lot of your

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Speaker 2: edge cada guesses are going to be wrong.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Nature is very hard to figure out and it's full surprises.

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Speaker 2: So you just have to develop this thick skin and

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Speaker 2: this you have to learn to reframe when things don't

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Speaker 2: conform to your hypothesis. You have to couch that as

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Speaker 2: interesting and compelling, because odds are everyone is thinking the.

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Speaker 1: Way you did.

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Speaker 2: We all expected the same thing. But when you find

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Speaker 2: out something different, that could be a really profound discovery

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Speaker 2: down the road because no one's really thinking about it.

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Speaker 2: So you just have to learn how to reframe some

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Speaker 2: of these perceived setbacks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a particularly academic academic, as you know,

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Speaker 1: but me doing about I don't know, three or four

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Speaker 1: months away from the finish line. I think writing stuff,

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Speaker 1: submitting pipers for publication, all that stuff at the moment, right,

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Speaker 1: But I've changed not complete change of direction, but slight

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Speaker 1: shift in direction and had to rethink, as you would understand. Also,

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Speaker 1: psychology is a very messy field. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very imprecise science. Shout out to all the psychologists and

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Speaker 1: the psychology researchers and neuropsychology researchers, but it's a very

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Speaker 1: I think it's a very messy kind of a minefield

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Speaker 1: of you know, trying to find truth and absolutes. But yes,

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Speaker 1: so many of the things that I thought would work

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Speaker 1: out a certain way, more than half didn't. And I've

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Speaker 1: had to go all right, well what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Like I thought I was going to come, I was

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Speaker 1: going to figure out. So my main thing, I think

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Speaker 1: you remember, but is around this thing called meta accuracy,

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Speaker 1: which is trying to understand how other people perceive and

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Speaker 1: experience you. And my thing was looking at could we

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Speaker 1: train it, could we teach it? Is it a skill?

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Speaker 1: Is that a trait? Can we measure it? All of

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Speaker 1: these things are still pretty much unanswerable. Like even in

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Speaker 1: the even when you say, well, let's look at all

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Speaker 1: the research on how the different people, the different researchers

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Speaker 1: and you know, teams that across different contexts and fields

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Speaker 1: and have measured meta accuracy, there's no consensus. Like it's

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Speaker 1: like there's not well, look we've done all this and

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Speaker 1: here's the best protocol, Like there isn't one. And you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to spend five and a half years and

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Speaker 1: really not add a lot to the pool. You know,

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Speaker 1: but it's great, it's you know, you it. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's another grain of sand in the beach of knowledge

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Speaker 1: or drop of water in the ocean of knowledge. But

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Speaker 1: it's very much a drop of water. That's it.

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Speaker 2: That's that's one of the things I actually enjoy about science,

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Speaker 2: even though the piece of the puzzle you might be

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Speaker 2: traying to fiddle with is incredibly small in the grand

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Speaker 2: scheme of things, you know, because there's only so many

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Speaker 2: hours in a day and science is hard and so on.

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Speaker 2: But it's still extremely rewarding knowing that you had a

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Speaker 2: hand in placing one small bit of the puzzle into place,

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Speaker 2: you know, or at least telling someone that, hey, that

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Speaker 2: puzzle piece doesn't belong there after all, that's valuable too.

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Speaker 2: And just to appreciate, you know, you get the sense

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Speaker 2: of all when you're involved in science and you see

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Speaker 2: things from I think a different perspective, and how incredibly

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Speaker 2: complex the world really is. Everything from you know, our

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Speaker 2: bodies to psychology, the mind, to outer space. I mean,

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Speaker 2: everything is just so much more complicated than we appreciate.

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Speaker 2: And our puny, little stone age brains don't want to

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Speaker 2: go there. You know. They were like really simple, black

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Speaker 2: and white solutions, and that's just not how the world

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Speaker 2: works in most cases.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Me, I find that thrilling because that means there's just

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Speaker 2: an endless, you know, list of questions we can go

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Speaker 2: out there and address. Roll up our sleeves do the experiments.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it's a really wonderful thing that

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Speaker 2: humans invented something like the scientific method, because, as you

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Speaker 2: alluded to earlier psychology being messy, at least now as

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Speaker 2: opposed to when the field was in its infancy, there

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Speaker 2: are efforts to apply real scientific metrics to these ideas,

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Speaker 2: and you know, to reproduce them too. There's a strong

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Speaker 2: case to get all these studies reproduced so that they

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Speaker 2: can be verified independently, and that's a really important step

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Speaker 2: in science. What we have to realize is that we're

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Speaker 2: trying to get to the truth. We're trying to discover

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Speaker 2: how reality actually functions. And that's not an easy thing

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Speaker 2: to do because we come at it with all of

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Speaker 2: our built in human biases, our brain, heuristics, and you know,

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Speaker 2: different ways of looking at things. But if you know,

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Speaker 2: science remains our best tool that we've ever invented, anyone

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Speaker 2: can do it. So that's important because if you outline

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Speaker 2: an experiment and discover X, you really get confidence that

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Speaker 2: it's true. If someone else in the world can do

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Speaker 2: the same thing and reach the same conclusion, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's that's really good evidence that you're closer to the

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Speaker 2: truth than you originally were.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I agree with all of that. The

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Speaker 1: other thing I think about, too, is like when we

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Speaker 1: talk about the truth, the like capital T the truth,

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Speaker 1: then you go into some kind of areas of uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, research, where you go, well, look, for some people,

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Speaker 1: this protocol is optimal, and for some people it's going

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Speaker 1: to kill them. You know. It's like me coming my

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Speaker 1: background is xise science, right, so I go, well, this

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Speaker 1: program is great for doctor Bill based on doctor Bill,

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Speaker 1: you know, based on his chronological biological age, his current state,

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Speaker 1: his injuries, he's medical issues, he's you know, his lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: he's da da da da da, his goals, he's all

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Speaker 1: of these things. Based on all of that, I design

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Speaker 1: an exercise program for you, which, for the bloke that

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Speaker 1: you sit next to at work, would be the worst program,

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Speaker 1: even though it's an identical protocol and you're both sixty

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Speaker 1: year old males or whatever it is, right, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how old you are.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, he's sixty yet, but sorry, fifty.

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Speaker 1: Five year old male. You know what I mean. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's that's the thing, like I

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Speaker 1: when I was twenty years old, I could drink a

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Speaker 1: glass of milk. In fact, I drank lots of milk

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Speaker 1: because I grew up in the country. And now, because

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Speaker 1: I guess my body produces less lactase, the enzyme that

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Speaker 1: breaks down lactose, I can't drink hardly any milk. So

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Speaker 1: what worked for me at twenty doesn't work for me

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Speaker 1: at sixty, you know. And I might eat a handful

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Speaker 1: of peanuts and I have an anaphylactic reaction and fall

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Speaker 1: on the ground. And you have a handful of peanuts

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Speaker 1: and go, they were great. I'm going to have more,

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Speaker 1: you know. So even amongst all of the I guess

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Speaker 1: the general accepted truths and principles, there's this individual variability

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Speaker 1: of how people how different people will respond to the

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Speaker 1: exact SIME protocol or stimuli.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you actually with that statement, Craig, you came

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Speaker 2: full circle with how I like to wind down and

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Speaker 2: blow off stress. I go out for a run. So

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Speaker 2: I just we have this wonderful network of trails very

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Speaker 2: close to our house. I go out there, I take

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Speaker 2: my tunes and just run for an hour or something

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Speaker 2: like that. And that to me is one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest stress relievers and it's also a wonderful idea generator.

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Speaker 2: So you know, if ever I get stuck intellectually on

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Speaker 2: a scientific problem or I have writer's block, going out

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Speaker 2: for a run almost always gets me over that hurdle. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that might sound counterintuitive to a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: How do you relax? Well, I go out for a run.

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Speaker 1: But that's but that I mean, that's my point. And

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Speaker 1: like one of the things, like I grew up, as

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Speaker 1: I said, in the country, and part of that was

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Speaker 1: riding motorbikes. And so from when I was ten until now,

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Speaker 1: I've ridden motorbikes. And you know, if I go out,

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Speaker 1: ninety percent of the time it'll be on a bike

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Speaker 1: and ten percent in a car. And if I'm on

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Speaker 1: a motorbike, I'm having fun. I'm relaxed, I'm more calm

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Speaker 1: and more confident on a bike than in a car. Now,

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Speaker 1: if I put someone on the back of my motorbike

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Speaker 1: who loves motorbikes, they're gonna be having a great time

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Speaker 1: and producing all the biochemistry that reflects that great time,

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Speaker 1: as you know better than me. And then if you

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Speaker 1: put someone else on the back, we do the same

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Speaker 1: thing on the same bike, and we go on the

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Speaker 1: same trip with the same rider on the front, and

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Speaker 1: they're terrified the exact same stimulus will produce the opposite effect.

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Speaker 1: Like that always fascinates me. Where I've had people who've

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Speaker 1: come for a motorbike or I'd never done it, and

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Speaker 1: then and we get back and they want to go again,

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Speaker 1: like straight away, they want to go for another ride.

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Speaker 1: That was the best thing I've ever done. And other

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Speaker 1: people we're one kilometer down the road and they want

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Speaker 1: to stop and get off and walk home. Right, you

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Speaker 1: know me, absolutely, everybody's such an individual thing. Yeah. Yeah, Now,

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Speaker 1: speaking of individual you were telling me before about this

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Speaker 1: amazing woman that you've written an article on. I find this.

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Speaker 1: I heard about this, I think, but I don't really

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Speaker 1: know any of the story. But do tell doctor Bill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the story has gotten press in years past because

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Speaker 2: it's been developing for I guess the past ten or

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Speaker 2: fifteen years. But like you said, I have an article

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Speaker 2: that should be coming out sometime this week. The link

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Speaker 2: to it will be up at my website, author Bill

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Speaker 2: Sullivan dot com when it's published if people want to

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Speaker 2: read more. So we're kind of giving folks a little

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Speaker 2: sneak preview. But I was really drawn to this story

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Speaker 2: because it's just a fascinating aspect of you know, like

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Speaker 2: you said, Craig, some of the differences that we all have.

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Speaker 2: So there's a woman out there who was born seventy

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Speaker 2: five years ago who can smell Parkinson's disease. She can

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Speaker 2: smell this disease on Parkinson's patience. Now there's a really

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Speaker 2: fascinating story behind this. You know, how did she know

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Speaker 2: that she was smelling Parkinson's disease? And is there a

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Speaker 2: way that science and medicine can capitalize on this very

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Speaker 2: strange and unique ability. So that's basically what I've been

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Speaker 2: researching to write this article. I just became engrossed with

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Speaker 2: it because you know, as you know, in my book

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Speaker 2: Pleased to Meet Me, I wrote about the differences that

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Speaker 2: people have in smell and taste, and most of that

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Speaker 2: is genetic in origin. And there are people out there

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Speaker 2: who are hype sensitive to smelling. And this can actually

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Speaker 2: be a really bad thing because not only do they

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Speaker 2: are not only are they hyper sensitive to smelling like

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Speaker 2: chocolate chip cookies, but they're hyper sensitive to smelling trash

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Speaker 2: and then bad odors. So the condition is very rare

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Speaker 2: and it's called hyperosmia, and it's a real heightened sense

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Speaker 2: of smell, and we're not talking about specific sense. We're

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Speaker 2: talking like across the board. They smell everything much more intently.

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Speaker 2: And this is probably genetic related to the number and

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Speaker 2: type of all factory receptors that line the nasal cavity.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's not completely understood, but that's the

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Speaker 2: most probable explanation. So you know, being able to smell

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Speaker 2: these odors is a real interesting phenomenon. And you probably

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Speaker 2: heard stories about animals being able to sniff out disease

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Speaker 2: in people. There are well documented reports of certain dogs

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Speaker 2: being able to sniff out cancer. They can sniff out diabetes.

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Speaker 2: I think rats or maybe dogs too, are able to

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Speaker 2: sniff out tuberculosis. And we really don't know what the

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Speaker 2: causative agent, what the mechanism is behind all this phenomenon,

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Speaker 2: but apparently people with certain diseases their body odor changes,

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Speaker 2: and that's the black box. We don't know exactly how

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Speaker 2: that happens, but the bottom line is their body odor changes,

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Speaker 2: and an animal or even a person with hyperosmia can

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Speaker 2: detect the differences in the chemical composition of their body

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Speaker 2: odor that normal people like me and you with a

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Speaker 2: normal sense of smell, it just doesn't cross our radar.

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Speaker 2: So that's what this woman joy film can do. So

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Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit about how she

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Speaker 2: discovered this ability. She first she first realized that she

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Speaker 2: had the ability to smell better than other people very

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Speaker 2: early on in life.

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Speaker 1: You know, she was a.

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Speaker 2: Young girl and she would complain about how people smelled

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Speaker 2: even though they've smelled perfectly fine to everybody else. So

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Speaker 2: her mother had to take her aside and said, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have this trait that runs in our family. You know,

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Speaker 2: more evidence that it's genetic, because it's hereditary that makes

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Speaker 2: us super smellers. We can detect odors that most people can't.

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Speaker 2: So you know, she had to be taught as a

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Speaker 2: small girl. You know, even though someone might smell bad

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Speaker 2: to you, don't say anything, you know, stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: But like you know, God lover her. She went on

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Speaker 2: to become a nurse. And if I don't know, I know,

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Speaker 2: if I had a super sens sensitive OS, I would

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Speaker 2: not want to go be a nurse because the smells

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Speaker 2: of a hospital for someone who can smell like that

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Speaker 2: aren't always going to be pleasant. And in fact, they

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Speaker 2: were going to be pretty rotten most of the time.

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Speaker 2: But what she noticed as she was a nurse was

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Speaker 2: that when she was around people with different diseases, they

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Speaker 2: smell different to her. Okay, they smell different than normal people,

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Speaker 2: and different diseases produced different sense. And she really didn't

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Speaker 2: say anything, just kind of dismissed it as this unusual quirk,

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Speaker 2: didn't think much of it. Nevertheless, she married a doctor.

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Speaker 2: His name was Less and when he turned thirty one,

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Speaker 2: Joy noticed that he started smelling differently. Okay, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to read you the sentence that she said, his

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Speaker 2: lovely male musk smell, which I guess is what most

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Speaker 2: males smell like. Okay, we got this musky, manly scent, right,

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Speaker 2: his lovely male musk smell. Had got this overpowering, sort

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Speaker 2: of nasty yeast smell. Wow, which I guess would have

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Speaker 2: been like bad bread or bad dough or something like

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Speaker 2: that would have been unpleasant. Yeah, and she just kind

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Speaker 2: of lived with it, you know. His body odor changed.

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Speaker 2: Really didn't know why, and she really, I guess, didn't

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Speaker 2: think much of it in way of disease. She didn't

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Speaker 2: think it was something alarming, but he definitely smelled different

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Speaker 2: than other people, and he smelled different than when they

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Speaker 2: first met and got married. So it turns out when

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Speaker 2: he turned forty five, he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.

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Speaker 2: So what this was signaling to her, what we know

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Speaker 2: she connected the dots here, was that she was smelling

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Speaker 2: Parkinson's disease more than ten years before he developed the

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Speaker 2: first visible symptoms. So, for those who don't know, Parkinson's

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Speaker 2: disease is a neurodegenitive degenerative disorder, and in the US

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Speaker 2: it affects about one million people, so it's pretty sizable

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Speaker 2: in terms of a neurodegenerative disorder. I think it's only

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Speaker 2: second to Alzheimer's with respect to the number of people

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Speaker 2: who are afflicted, and I think the number grows up

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Speaker 2: to ten million when you go worldwide. So very significant disease,

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Speaker 2: and there's no cure for it. You can slow it

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Speaker 2: down and earlier diagnosis is crucial, but there's no cure. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: it's a poorly understood disease. We don't understand why these

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Speaker 2: dopaminergic neurons are dying in Parkinson's patience, but as they

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Speaker 2: do die, they lose control of their motor skills, they

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Speaker 2: develop tremors, and as the disease progresses, they actually have

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Speaker 2: virtually no control over bodily movements. They have difficulties swallowing,

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Speaker 2: which is one of the common causes of death of

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Speaker 2: Parkinson's patience is when food and lung food and fluids

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Speaker 2: enter the lungs because they can't swallow properly. They die

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Speaker 2: from falls because they have lost their coordination, and there's

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Speaker 2: cardiovascular issues related to some of the nervous system disorders

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Speaker 2: that is associated with Parkinson's. So really nasty disease, and

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Speaker 2: unfortunately her husband developed it, but it did allow her

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Speaker 2: to connect the dots that that yeasty smell that she

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Speaker 2: noticed was actually this Parkinson's and you know, she smelled

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Speaker 2: it long before he first exhibited any symptoms. Now, being

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Speaker 2: a doctor, Less figured that it was really important that

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Speaker 2: they contact a scientist or a researcher with this observation,

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Speaker 2: because he suspected, as Joy did, that they may be

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Speaker 2: able to study Joy's unusual sense of smell and do

395
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: something beneficial for Parkinson's patience. So they started going to

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Speaker 2: a lot of Parkinson's support group's charities, and Joy noticed

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Speaker 2: that all the people with Parkinson's smelled like her husband did.

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Speaker 2: They did not smell like a normal person.

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Speaker 1: That is, that is, I would not want to make

400
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Speaker 1: Joy nervy.

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Speaker 2: That well, yeah, that brings up a really interesting philosophical conundrum,

402
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Speaker 2: doesn't it. If you had this superpower and you smelled

403
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Speaker 2: someone who wasn't trembling, and you suspected they were going

404
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: to get Parkinson's, should you tell them good question. Yeah,

405
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Speaker 2: that's that's an interesting tangent. You know, I didn't think

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Speaker 2: about that. So So anyway, at one of these public

407
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Speaker 2: lectures in in twenty twelve, they met a scientist who

408
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Speaker 2: was giving a talk on Parkinson's. And after a little

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Speaker 2: bit of convincing, because at first he was like, get

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Speaker 2: out of here. You can't smell Parkinson's. That's ridiculous. But

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Speaker 2: after a little convincing, you know, arguing that hey, animals

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Speaker 2: can smell disease. Humans are animals. You know, this shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be dismissed too lightly. So to his credit, this doctor

414
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Speaker 2: til Kunath actually came around and said, all right, well

415
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Speaker 2: let's put it to the test, okay. So he designed

416
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Speaker 2: this experiment and basically what they did was they got

417
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Speaker 2: like several people who had Parkinson's and several people who

418
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Speaker 2: did not. Those who didn't have Parkinson's would be the

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Speaker 2: so called control group. Yeah, and he had them wear

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Speaker 2: T shirts for like a day, and then he gave

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Speaker 2: Joy these T shirts, but she didn't know who was

422
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Speaker 2: wearing which one. That was her job just to try

423
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: to assign it. Yeah, it's a really good experimental design,

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00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: very easy to do, very inexpensive. So Joy got every

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Speaker 2: single one of them right except one. So she correctly

426
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Speaker 2: identified all the T shirts that the Parkinson's patience were wearing.

427
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 2: But there was one in the control group, you know,

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Speaker 2: someone who didn't have Parkinson's, and she said, this shirt

429
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Speaker 2: smells like Parkinson's. Lo and behold, one year later, that

430
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: guy got Parkinson's.

431
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: That is bloody amazing.

432
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: Isn't that insane? Yeah, it's just mind blowing.

433
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: And so so initially they would have gone, well, look

434
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: it's you're pretty accurate. You're not completely accurate, but and

435
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: isn't it isn't it funny that? Wow? Okay, yep, okay, god.

436
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would have been impressed with like

437
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: ninety percent accuracy. So what you missed one? You know,

438
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 2: that's probably a flu. But then you know, a year later,

439
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: this poor man develops Parkinson's. So she was right all

440
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: along and it's further evidence that she's predicting. Her nose

441
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: can predict this disease long before visible symptoms appear. So

442
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: that was just like her husband less, you know, So

443
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: what this really excited the scientist, you know, this experiment

444
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: was really paradigm shifting, and he got another investigator involved,

445
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: Perdita Baron, and all this was taking place in the

446
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: UK universities in the UK because she was Scottish, and

447
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: they again pulled her into the lab and basically what

448
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: they wanted to do was use her nose as like

449
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool to maybe help them develop a new

450
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: test for Parkinson's disease that anyone can take, even people

451
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: who don't have Parkinson's, right, Yeah, so what they were doing,

452
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: you know, basically, Joy told them the smell of Parkinson's

453
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: is strongest on the forehead and kind of on the

454
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: back neck. That's where she could smell it the most,

455
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: and that means, you know, the scent is coming from

456
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: not just body odor, but something even more specific. It's

457
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: a substance called sebum, and this is an oily substance

458
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: that glands in our hair follicles secrete onto our skin

459
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: and it forms like this waxy barrier on our skin.

460
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: It's protective. So these subacious glands in the hair follicles,

461
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: the sebum that they're secreting must be changing. So the

462
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: rest of this is pretty straightforward science. The researchers can

463
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: just take a swab and you know, running across the

464
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: forehead of someone with Parkinson's and someone without, and put

465
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: the material into what we call a mass spectrometer. This

466
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: is basically going to tell you what chemicals are in

467
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: that substance. Yeah, and then you do enough patients, you know,

468
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: you do enough people with Parkinson's, enough without, you start

469
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: to get statistically significant results pointing towards molecules that are

470
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: specific to Parkinson's patients and they lo and behold. Like

471
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen they published a paper about two or

472
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: three of these molecules are highly enriched in people with Parkinson's,

473
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: And now instead of using Joy's nose, they can develop

474
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: a very simple diagnostic kit. Okay, something you can do

475
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: the swab, put it into a little test tube, you know,

476
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: and after a while you can see if they have

477
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: those molecules or not. So that's where they are with

478
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: this technology. These molecules are so called biomarkers for Parkinson's now,

479
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: and anyone who exhibits an enrichment of these Parkinson's biomarkers,

480
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: whether they're trembling yet or not, they're probably going to

481
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: develop Parkinson's.

482
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: That is, I mean, that is really cool interesting science.

483
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: I mean that is, that is like the intersection of

484
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: for me, entertainment and curiosity and awesome research. I wonder,

485
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: like when you think about, like you and me looking

486
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: at somebody with all the physical, obvious, overt neuromuscular symptoms

487
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: to shaking whatever of Parkinson's, Like you and I could

488
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: look at twenty people in a room, ten who have

489
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: got Parkinson's, ten who haven't, and obviously we goll what's

490
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: very apparent, right, But for her it's probably just as clear,

491
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, through that like, because she didn't get it

492
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: wrong at all. So it's funny that that is such

493
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: a unique skill. And I wonder skill ability whatever I wonder.

494
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: So let's say that we know, you know, like she

495
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: smelled it at thirty one, when her husband was thirty one,

496
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: and he was diagnosed at forty five. That's fourteen years.

497
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: I mean that seems mind blowing. So let's say that

498
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: we know doctor Bill, maybe a decade before somebody's going

499
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: to get symptoms, we know that in advance, Then how

500
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: does that advance knowledge serve us?

501
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: Right? And that's a great question. So, like I said,

502
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: there's no cure for Parkinson's, but there are medications that

503
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: Parkinson's patients can take that slow the progression of disease.

504
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: And the sooner they get on these drugs, basically el dopa,

505
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: they replenish the dopamine that Parkinson's patients are losing. So

506
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: if you can restore that earlier on, you can probably

507
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: slow the progression of the disease even more and extend

508
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: the life of Parkinson's patients and extend their quality of life.

509
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: You know, in theory, the earlier you start treatment, the

510
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: later the tremors will start to appear. So it could

511
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: be a real breakthrough. Given that we don't have a cure.

512
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: This is the best we can currently do. If we

513
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: can use this diagnostic test and just like incorporate it

514
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: into everyone's annual physical and if it turns out positive,

515
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: to start people on these drugs, you may be able

516
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: to delay the onset of Parkinson's symptoms, thereby increasing the

517
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: quality of life.

518
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's incredible. Yes, I just purely coincidentally. I need

519
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: to find that. I've got it somewhere in my phone.

520
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: This is not great for a pluck, but somebody sent

521
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: me a reel, you know, an Instagram reel of a

522
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: guy who I'm pretty sure it was Parkinson's And he

523
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: was sitting in looked like a consulting room with the

524
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: doctor and they were looking and very very very extreme shaking,

525
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: and he asked him to pick up a glass which

526
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: was a plastic drink glass and it had nothing in it.

527
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: But he couldn't, you know, he couldn't even nearly hold

528
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: it still. And he couldn't there was zero chance that

529
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: if it was full of water that it wouldn't go

530
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: everywhere and he wouldn't get any and he'd get any

531
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: of his mouth right, And then they had this I

532
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: think it was like some deep brain stimulation thing where

533
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: they turned they adjusted it and his I'll find it

534
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: to you and send it to you in WhatsApp because

535
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm massacring this. But the tremors went away. Have you

536
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: heard of that?

537
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: I have not. I mean I've heard of brain stimulation

538
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: being used as a treatment for a variety of neurological disorders,

539
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: so I guess it's not terribly outside the realm of possibility. Yeah,

540
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: but yeah, they must be stimulating the brain or a

541
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: different section of the brain to increase dopamine. Because when dopamine,

542
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: I mean, that's basically mimicking the same effect that el

543
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: dopa would if doctors are prescribing that as a treatment.

544
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming it would achieve basically the same effect

545
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: because you can you know, no one posts the real

546
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: of this, I suppose, But when a trembling Parkinson's disease

547
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: patients take their el dopa, you know, in a short

548
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: amount of time, those tremors are going to be gradually reduced, Yes,

549
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, in early Parkinson's, to the point where they're

550
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: not even noticeable by most people. That's how good el

551
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: dopa is. The problem is Parkinson's patients develop a little

552
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: bit of resistance to that drug. You know, They're body

553
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: starts to tolerate it, and they need more and more

554
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: of it. And when you get to excessive levels, el

555
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: dopa starts to have other effects on the body. It

556
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: increases risk taking behavior, it lowers inhibitions. It can have

557
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: some adverse effects that are almost just as bad as

558
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: Parkinson's itself. So that's why we really do need a cure.

559
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: But that's where Joy can also be helpful. Now that

560
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: these scientists have isolated some of the molecules that Parkinson's

561
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: patients are increasing, Yes, we can kind of reverse engineer

562
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: the disease, right. We can try to apply science to

563
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 2: figure out why are Parkinson's patients increasing these chemicals, and

564
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 2: if we stop that process with another type of drug,

565
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: we might have a new treatment for Parkinson's.

566
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: It's incredible. I wonder how many I wonder how many

567
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: other special abilities like that we're unaware of in other

568
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: people who have certain like I know it's very rare,

569
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: but in a world of billion people, I'm sure there's

570
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: a lot of I'm sure there's at least another one

571
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: hundred Joys or two or three or four hundred or

572
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: thousand Joys who can smell in inverted commas or potentially

573
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: smell other diseases.

574
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: No, you're right, And when I was researching this story,

575
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: I came across that very thing, because as soon as

576
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: Joy went public with her story, several other people wrote

577
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: to the newspapers or the TV station saying Hey, I

578
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: have this ability too, and I've noticed that my diabetic

579
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: mother smells really funny, so you're absolutely right. There may

580
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: be other people out there. And Joy herself, working as

581
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: a nurse, has gone on record saying that folks with diabetes, Alzheimer's,

582
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: tuberculosis all have a distinct odor about them. So this

583
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 2: this might just be the beginning, Craig Parkinson's just might

584
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: be the gateway that allows further diagnostic tests based on

585
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: Joy's ability or other people with her supercharge smelling abilities

586
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 2: to develop new tests for diabetes, Alzheimer's and maybe infectious

587
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: diseases as well.

588
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: Such a bloody, fascinating story, doc, So so we are

589
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: what are we now? It's Monday now. I think this

590
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: is going to be maybe tomorrow, which will be either tomorrow,

591
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: Tuesday the twenty second, or Wednesday the twenty third. This

592
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: will go live in Australia anyway. So when is the

593
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: article coming out and how can people access it?

594
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: It'll come out sometime this week. I don't know the

595
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: exact date because I probably still have some editorial changes

596
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: that I will be required to make, yep, but it'll

597
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: come out this week and people can go to my website,

598
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 2: Author Bill Sullivan dot com. You can read this article

599
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 2: when it comes out, and you know, a whole bunch

600
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: more than I've written over the years.

601
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: And of course everyone doctor Bill's book is pleased to

602
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: meet me jeans, germs, and the curious forces that make

603
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: us who we are. He's an award winning professor at

604
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: the Indiana University of Medicine, where he studies genetics and

605
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: infectious diseases and appears once a fortnite or month or

606
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: is it fortnightly or monthly? Monthly?

607
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: Fortnitely we do monthly monthly.

608
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: Lucky us. Thanks for doing it.

609
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can handle more than that.

610
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: Are you sick of it yet?

611
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 2: No, not at all. Like I said before, I always

612
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: enjoy coming on your programs. It's a delay to talk

613
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: about science. You have very insightful questions, and I love

614
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 2: the audience feedback we get on Facebook and Instagram.

615
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. So and to that everyone, if

616
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: you've got we should do a Q and I. We've

617
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: spoken about it, but we haven't done it, but we

618
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: should do a Q and I episode. Your questions listener

619
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: questions for Doctor Bill why don't you give people some

620
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: context to that? So if people did want to ask

621
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: you questions, what's kind of the areas that you would

622
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: be most not comfortable with? But I guess, like, what's

623
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: what kind of questions? What areas should they be asking

624
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: them in or relative to?

625
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: Well, basically anything about biology. You know, I'm really a

626
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: student of the human body. I love to learn what

627
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: makes it tick. That overlaps a lot with psychology as well,

628
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: and that basically is my book, as you mentioned, So

629
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 2: anything that's related to what makes human beings work, why

630
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: we do the things we do. I can dress that

631
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: from a genetics standpoint, epigenetics, you know, from an evolutionary perspective,

632
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: and of course my background and day to day work

633
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: is an infectious disease. Love to answer questions about that

634
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: as well.

635
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: I've got a very specific question that's popped into mind

636
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 1: as you're explaining all of that's completely a complete left

637
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: turn to everything we've spoken about. So here's my last question.

638
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: Don't roll your eyes everyone, I want the science behind this.

639
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: So when I look at Donald Trump talking and I

640
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: hear him and this is not a pro or an

641
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: anti everyone, just this guy who clearly is hated and loved.

642
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: Some people hate him, some people love him. And there's

643
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: been you know, there's praise, there's criticism, there's that guy

644
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: seems to be I'm sure he isn't. But I've never

645
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: me as a student of human behavior and psychology and

646
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: you know, watching people who communicate for a living, and

647
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone who's se seems to be less

648
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: affected by the fucking avalanche of shit that he's always

649
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: in the middle of. What are your thoughts, like he

650
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: just it's I mean, water off a duck's back comes

651
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: to mind. What are your thoughts around how he just

652
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: seems to deal with all that? I would have been

653
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: dead five years ago just from the stress.

654
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: Oh you're asking how Trump deals with it?

655
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: Yes, Like how was he?

656
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: Like?

657
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: Yes, he's obviously he got voted in as president, so

658
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people must like him, and again no

659
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: opinion about that. Also a lot of people somewhere between

660
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: don't like him and despise him. Right, how does he

661
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: deal with Like? Is that his genetics? Is he just

662
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: wired that way?

663
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: Wow? Well that's like that's like the million dollar question,

664
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 2: isn't it. I don't think it is controversial that Donald

665
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: Trump is a nist. He only really cares about himself, right,

666
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you're the psychologist, and you've seen him speak

667
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: and maybe you've read some of his social media posts.

668
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: To me, it's abundantly clear he's a narcissist. So to

669
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: answer your question, given that personality profile, I don't think

670
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: he cares what other people think about him. Yeah, So

671
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: if you have that attitude, then I don't think you're

672
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: going to have the stress that normal people feel, you know,

673
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: when other people don't like them, if they receive criticism

674
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: or negative feedback, even if it's presented in a constructive

675
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: or fact based manner. If you're a narcissist, you just

676
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 2: don't care. And to me, in terms of a leader,

677
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: that's really dangerous to have.

678
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think about this stat. I mean, the number

679
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: of the alleged number of schship paths in our society

680
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: varies on research whose research is between one and five percent.

681
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: But even if we go absolute rock bottom one percent,

682
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: that's one in one hundred. Well, that's give or take

683
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: three and a half million sociopaths in America. That's a

684
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: lot of fucking people. And and in Australia that's you know,

685
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: we're sitting at a whopping twenty seven million, so it's

686
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: like a quarter of a million social paths based on

687
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: the one percent number. I mean, yeah, it's a wonder

688
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: we survive with those numbers.

689
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it is, that's yeah, I never really

690
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: appreciated the numbers to that extent.

691
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: Well, when I have even one percent of Americans, that

692
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: is millions of people.

693
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: That's right, and you would think most crime might be

694
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: committed by those folks, but in fact it's not unless

695
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: we're just doing more about it. So and I have

696
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: I have heard I'm preferred to as a as a

697
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: psychopath and a sociopath. You're probably in a better position,

698
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: given your expertise, to evaluate the validity of those remarks.

699
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, some of the things he says and does

700
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: really do raise eyebrows on the for lack of the

701
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 2: better word, the sanity. You know that, you know that

702
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 2: he must have. I mean, it's just boggles the mind

703
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: that he is able to get away with some of

704
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: the things he says and does, because when I was

705
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 2: growing up, if any politician did such things, they would

706
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 2: have been read out of Washington, d C. A long

707
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: time ago. And there's just a disturbing level of acceptance

708
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 2: and normalization right now that that could really damage the

709
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: United States and maybe the world as well.

710
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: I remember, I remember when he was campaigning first time around,

711
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff came out about, like a

712
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: recording of him talking about some very unsavory stuff about

713
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: him and a woman, right, And he was talking and

714
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: the stuff that he said was fucking terrible. And I

715
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: heard that. I heard the recording and I went, oh, well,

716
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: there's his political career. It's like, well, he had a

717
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: good go at it, I mean, but this is out now,

718
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean, and things come out that are nowhere near

719
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: as bad as that, that have destroyed many careers. But

720
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: he was literally saying like some very very vulgar, very inappropriate,

721
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: very horrible shit, right, And I heard it, and I

722
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: went ah, because I was kind of curious about what

723
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: would happen. I went, oh, well, now we know it's

724
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: never going to get across the line. And he's done.

725
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: And then five minutes later his presidence, I'm like, what,

726
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: how on earth did that stuff not totally won derail

727
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: his campaign and his endeavors. And two like, obviously I

728
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that or say that, but if that came

729
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: out about me. I had have done that or said that,

730
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: I would have just like pulled him my head in

731
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: and gone off into the mist. You know.

732
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you raise a good point. If he was

733
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: in any other profession, Okay, in a business or a school,

734
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: or the things he says and does would have gotten

735
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 2: him fired in a heartbeat. But for some reason, in

736
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 2: politics he's cheered on. And you know, fifty two percent

737
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: of Americans are scratching their head and saying, what is

738
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: going on here? It's like we've lost We've taken leave

739
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: of our senses. This is a serial abuser. Okay, he's

740
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: obviously a bully, he's a revenge seeker. He's terrible to women,

741
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: he's terrible to minorities. He's cheated on all three of

742
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: his wives. Okay, and he's a convicted felon twice, impeached.

743
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 2: I just you know what more can happen?

744
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: Right?

745
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 2: I mean? But he literally said himself that he could

746
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: murder someone in cold blood and he would get away

747
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: with it. Yeah, that's not inaccurate.

748
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: Wow, he in his own way, he is.

749
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: You know, he should get an honorary PhD in psychology.

750
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 2: I think he really knows how to mess with people's minds,

751
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: and he's used that to his advantage as a narcissist

752
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: to try to create this Well, he's trying to like

753
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: rewrite history now, you know, with calling the twenty twenty

754
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 2: election of fraud. And you know what he's done with

755
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: our our our healthcare pages, our medicine pages, and our

756
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: science foundations is just absurd. I mean, he is like

757
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: trying to rewrite history as he sees it, you know,

758
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: is in his worldview, and his worldview does not always

759
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: align with objective reality. And this is what scares me

760
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: to death, Greg, because people are buying what he says,

761
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: you know, lock stock and barrel. They will not question it.

762
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: It's like a cult.

763
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: And if you don't question what one person is telling you,

764
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: you don't have a democracy anymore. You have a dictatorship.

765
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing, yeah, I agree with you. And

766
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that so by the way, you know, schiopaths,

767
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: sockerpath they're not the same thing, but they get kind

768
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: of used interchangeably. But obviously a sociopaths and narcissists can

769
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: be the one human, right. But the thing about a

770
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: lot of sociopaths slash nists is that they are often charismatic, charming,

771
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: have a high ich you obviously incredibly manipulative, and they

772
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: don't always initially seem like you know, over time people

773
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of find out, but initially like and I've I've

774
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: met some people in my life where I initially was enamored.

775
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, this person's amazing, and then

776
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: the year or two or three, lady, you're like I was, Yeah,

777
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: they are. They're charming, they're funny, they can they've got

778
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: a great vocabulary, they can read the room, they can

779
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: build rapport and can they can do all of these

780
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: things that make it seem like they're an awesome human.

781
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: But it's all strategic and it's all self serving.

782
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very disappointing when when you see that late.

783
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: You know, hey, mate, it's been great once again, everybody.

784
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill's book is called Please to Meet Me Jeans,

785
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: Germs and the Curious Forces that make us who we are. Also,

786
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: his article is going to be out this week, so

787
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: have a read of that. We'll say goodbye off air,

788
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: but for now, thanks mate, I appreciate you as always.

789
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 2: Hey, it's always a pleasure to come on and chat

790
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: with you.

791
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: Craig, Thanks buddy,