WEBVTT - Speaking out to right wrongs: Nick Kaldas Pt.2 

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of my chat with Nick Caldos,

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<v Speaker 1>retired New South Wales Police Deputy Commissioner, United Nations Investigator

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<v Speaker 1>and recently the Commissioner for the Royal Commission in the

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<v Speaker 1>Defense and Veteran Suicide. Nick, welcome back, Thank you you've

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<v Speaker 1>met the talkers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a podcast. Your career, the different things that you've

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<v Speaker 1>done that is quite quite extraordinary, and I'll keep referencing

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<v Speaker 1>things from the book because there's little bits and pieces

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<v Speaker 1>I'm finding out about you that I didn't know. But

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things I found interesting that your wife Natalie,

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<v Speaker 1>who's a journalist. When you guys first started getting together,

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<v Speaker 1>you had to keep it on the quiet because in

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<v Speaker 1>your position in the police, there was an assumption that

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<v Speaker 1>you'd be leaking information to Natalie.

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say it was a widely held assumption. I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's probably a couple of people there that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get on with who I knew you would weaponize

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<v Speaker 2>that relationship against me to say that you're going out

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<v Speaker 2>with a journalist. She was a senior member of the

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<v Speaker 2>team at the Australian newspaper, and I was the Deputy

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<v Speaker 2>Commissioner in charge of Cana Terrorism and organized crime and

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<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of other things. I was a member

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<v Speaker 2>of the National Cana Terrorism Committee, so I knew a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of what was going on. Anyway, long story short,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a bit of an issue for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess one of the reasons I took the Lebanon

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<v Speaker 2>investigation job was to sort of break that cycle. We're

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<v Speaker 2>sort of on again, off again, and it was an issue.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a clash of occupations. So I made a

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<v Speaker 2>decision to go, and I knew both her and I

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<v Speaker 2>assuming she agreed to come.

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<v Speaker 1>With me awkwardly that would help the relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>I would have been the end of it, really, but

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<v Speaker 2>I thought it was a way to break that impass

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<v Speaker 2>if you like, and both of us get away from

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<v Speaker 2>the environment. She couldn't get a leave of absence, even

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<v Speaker 2>though she'd done a couple of decades with news cours,

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<v Speaker 2>so she decided to resign and she followed me, and

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<v Speaker 2>we got.

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<v Speaker 1>Married well then lived happily ever after, hopefully. I find

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<v Speaker 1>that when people think that you're capable of releasing information,

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<v Speaker 1>because I had some friendships with journalists and it was

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<v Speaker 1>always yeah, I was hearing when Jubilin's releasing this. I

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<v Speaker 1>think you're very similar to the way I would go

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<v Speaker 1>about my time. If I've got something to say in

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<v Speaker 1>the medium, my name will be on it. When I

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<v Speaker 1>was in the police or not, I've never been this

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<v Speaker 1>unknown police sources said that, and I just find it

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit offensive because it's almost questioning your integrity, isn't.

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<v Speaker 2>It It is. It's very much questioning here integrity, but

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<v Speaker 2>in my experience, those who make that allegation are usually

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<v Speaker 2>the ones who leak yes, and you know, quite in

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<v Speaker 2>a nasty way. Really it's about hurting individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I agree, and policing. And I was going

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<v Speaker 1>to mention this in part one. I mentioned that here.

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to do it on the back of

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<v Speaker 1>Operation Mascot, but also the murder investigation that you headed

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<v Speaker 1>up that became an inquiry that was a question in

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<v Speaker 1>your integrity, the assassination of the politician, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>John Yman, member of Parliament. Yeah, that was like a

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen year stretch investigation itself, ware for seven or eight years,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he convicted. He went all the way to

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<v Speaker 2>the High Court. My memory is he wasn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>have leave to appeal, so he never got to the

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<v Speaker 2>High Court. And then you know, through connections and pressure,

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<v Speaker 2>there's some really bad false allegations made in the media

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, and led to a Royal commission into his conviction.

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<v Speaker 2>So we had to go through it all again. It

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<v Speaker 2>was nine months the inquiry went.

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<v Speaker 1>For and it's hard when your integrity these main question.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it is. Yeah, I mean, this is how ridiculous

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<v Speaker 2>that situation was. One of the main allegations which caused

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<v Speaker 2>him to have an inquiry into his conviction. By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>the inquiry ended with the Judge pattern saying that he

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't find a scarec of evidence that I had done

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<v Speaker 2>anything wrong or that anyone in my team had done

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<v Speaker 2>anything wrong. But the most ridiculous thing that was alleged

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<v Speaker 2>is that we planted them murder weapon where it was

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<v Speaker 2>found and it was matched ballistically with the weapon used

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<v Speaker 2>to kill John Yuman. Now, the only way we could

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<v Speaker 2>have planted or I could have planted space to have

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<v Speaker 2>done it planted the murder weapon is if we had

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<v Speaker 2>done the murder ourselves and we had possession of the

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<v Speaker 2>murder weapon we didn't want. It was just ridiculous. We

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<v Speaker 2>were the first ones. There's a couple of good things

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<v Speaker 2>come out of it, which also I think recurred when

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<v Speaker 2>I did the investigation the assassination of the Lebernice primesister, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's communications analysis. So we proved that full no the

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<v Speaker 2>murderer had been in the vicinity of the murder at

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<v Speaker 2>the time of the murder. Then he went to the

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<v Speaker 2>footbridge at Voyage, a point overlooking George's River and made

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<v Speaker 2>a number of calls while they're in an attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>alibi himself. And when we dredged that river and it

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<v Speaker 2>was a tortuous process, we found the murder weapon right there,

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<v Speaker 2>So pretty damn it I would have thought so.

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<v Speaker 1>But it doesn't stop the allegations coming. Can we drift

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<v Speaker 1>into another area you've got expertise in? Is there any

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<v Speaker 1>area you haven't got expertise in that? Just working through

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<v Speaker 1>the list terrorism, I'm watching with interest and concern on

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on the world, and you've got a world

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<v Speaker 1>view on things. It feels fairly volatile at the moment,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's a lot of a lot of it feels

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<v Speaker 1>like trouble brewing without creating creating unnecessary concern. But I

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<v Speaker 1>notice of relatively recent times the general terrorism threat level

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<v Speaker 1>is it probable that the head of Asia has decided

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<v Speaker 1>And that is my understanding, and you'd have a better

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<v Speaker 1>understanding that it's a greater than fifty percent chance of

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<v Speaker 1>a non sure attack in the next twelve months. That's

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<v Speaker 1>why the probable rating provides what's your thoughts on terrorism

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<v Speaker 1>and all the stuff that And we've seen a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of things well within the past twelve months are stabbing

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<v Speaker 1>at the church, what happened at Bondai, things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>the issues between the Jewish community and the slogans that

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<v Speaker 1>have been painted, and everything else that's going on. What's

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<v Speaker 1>what's your take on that?

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<v Speaker 2>Look. I think it's a very volatile situation at the moment,

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<v Speaker 2>There's no doubt about that. But we've been there before.

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<v Speaker 2>If I think of the first golf for the second goal,

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<v Speaker 2>for September eleven attacks, you could go on and on

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<v Speaker 2>and on about the incidents that have occurred that affect

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<v Speaker 2>us here and affect community members in Australia. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think it's reasonable for governments to say whatever happens overseas,

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<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't it shouldn't affect you here. The reality is

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<v Speaker 2>it does. There are people on all sides who feel

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<v Speaker 2>very strongly about what's happening in other parts of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you haven't mentioned the Ukraine War and the

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<v Speaker 2>Russian issue. I'm involved with many members or some members

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<v Speaker 2>of the Ukrainian community and they feel very strongly about

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<v Speaker 2>what's happening over there as well. But the reality is

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<v Speaker 2>I hope that the threads hold together the community in

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<v Speaker 2>New South Wales and Sydney, in Australia are strong enough,

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<v Speaker 2>the harmony, the cohesiveness is strong enough to unite us

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<v Speaker 2>rather than divide us. I hope this will pass soon.

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<v Speaker 2>We all pray for peace. Obviously, there are thousands of

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<v Speaker 2>people really feeling vulnerable at the moment over there, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's just a dreadful situation. I don't know that there

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be any winners out of all of this.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, humanity is a loser at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>it all. But we all, I think we all do

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<v Speaker 2>our part in Australia and in New South Wales and

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<v Speaker 2>Sydney to try and keep the harmony, just to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that everybody is safe and feel safe. And I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's obviously anti Semitism has raised its head again. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of what's been occurring is not necessarily anti Semitism, but

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<v Speaker 2>it does tend to get classed as that. And certainly

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<v Speaker 2>Islama Fae has also read it's only a head, not

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<v Speaker 2>to the same extent. But all of that's unacceptable, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think we've all said that, you know, quite loudly

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<v Speaker 2>that it is unacceptable. But it is what's happening over

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<v Speaker 2>there that's causing all this heated feeling here so we

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<v Speaker 2>all hope that the problems over there are solved.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it would take the sting out of it. Dave

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<v Speaker 1>Gall a friend of yours who we both work with

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<v Speaker 1>and know well, doctor Dave Gall. Now I had him

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<v Speaker 1>on the podcast and he's talking about terrorism, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>his area of expertise, as you know, but talking about

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<v Speaker 1>if let's say that, without mentioning a specific group, if

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<v Speaker 1>the right wing become radicalized, then you don't have to

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<v Speaker 1>just look after the right wing. You're going to look

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<v Speaker 1>after the left wing because whatever goes, if one becomes

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<v Speaker 1>more radicalized, the other will up and up. And it

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<v Speaker 1>just seems like they're up in the anti time and

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<v Speaker 1>time again.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, I think one of the issues that

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<v Speaker 2>are occurring at the moment that hasn't received much publicity

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<v Speaker 2>is the rise of more of a rise. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's always been there, but there is certainly a bit

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<v Speaker 2>more of a rise in right extreme right wing extreme activity,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it suits them when there are problems

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<v Speaker 2>in other parts of the world and people are marching

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<v Speaker 2>and so on, and they try and tap into that

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<v Speaker 2>and use it to their own nefarious ends.

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<v Speaker 1>How is in policing or law enforcement can we We

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<v Speaker 1>can't arrest our way out of it or make I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think just make legislation harder and harder. We've got

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<v Speaker 1>to take the animosity, we've got to take the anger

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<v Speaker 1>and the fear away. You are very big when you're

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<v Speaker 1>in New South Wales police about working with communities, getting

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<v Speaker 1>communities liaising with the police and making that connection. There

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<v Speaker 1>is that that that the way we.

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<v Speaker 2>Can definitely and I think it's the only way to go,

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<v Speaker 2>is to make friends at a time when there's a

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<v Speaker 2>neck crisis, and then when bad things happen, you tap

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<v Speaker 2>into the good will that you've built in the relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>People can talk to you if you're in authority and

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<v Speaker 2>so on. But I think, just to your point Gary

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<v Speaker 2>about the police generally and how what they're going through

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<v Speaker 2>at the moment across the nation, not just in Sydney,

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<v Speaker 2>it is wrong absolutely to expect us to arrest our

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<v Speaker 2>way out of this. There are societal problems, there are

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<v Speaker 2>issues with radicalization, there are issues with people on the

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<v Speaker 2>internet and their pajamas in the basement who will never

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<v Speaker 2>hear about because they're lone wolves and so on, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's almost unfair to expect the police to solve those problems.

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<v Speaker 2>There must be more of an all hands on deck

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<v Speaker 2>approach government departments and the communities and so on, and

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<v Speaker 2>there is a lot of activity in that space to

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<v Speaker 2>try and counter that process of radicalization and extremism. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's the answer, that is really the answer. You can't

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<v Speaker 2>dump it all on the cops and say just go

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<v Speaker 2>and arrest everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, to me that sometimes pause, fire on the pause,

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<v Speaker 1>fuel on the fire, I should say, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I have to say, certainly, my experience has

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<v Speaker 2>been that most of the information that has led to

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<v Speaker 2>significant arrests encountering terrorism have come from the community. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's about them faith in the authorities to just put

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<v Speaker 2>their hand up and say, look, this person has run

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<v Speaker 2>off the rails. You should know and if that happens,

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<v Speaker 2>then you know, great, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to get your thoughts on it, because, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I know your experience, but the work that you've done overseas,

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<v Speaker 1>your background and the experience you've had in the police,

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<v Speaker 1>I was interested in getting your take on it. The

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 1>Royal Commission for Defense and Veterans suicide. I know in

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.400
<v Speaker 1>speaking to you it took a toll on you. It

0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.760
<v Speaker 1>was a two year project, three years, three years, and

0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.959
<v Speaker 1>do you want to tell us what you can about that?

0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I don't think there's any secrets. I mean, we've

0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.680
<v Speaker 2>published a I wish it was a shorter report, but

0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.680
<v Speaker 2>it's seven volumes because we had to there was so

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 2>much that we found out that we needed to report.

0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad we tried to limit the number of recommendations

0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and the executive summary and so on, because the shorter

0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:55.720
<v Speaker 2>it is, the more chance that people were going to

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>read it and really take it on board. We came

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.600
<v Speaker 2>in at one hundred and twenty two recommendations. I'm very

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.640
<v Speaker 2>happy that I'll come back to what we did. But

0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm really happy that the government and the opposition, in fact,

0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 2>we called for a bipartisan approach. It should be a

0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 2>bipartisan issue. And it's about our military and our veterans

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 2>who have retired getting to a point where they need

0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.000
<v Speaker 2>they can't see a way out, and they suicide. And

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 2>I learned that to use the words committing suicide is

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.560
<v Speaker 2>not acceptable, it's offensive. So what we're supposed to say

0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.199
<v Speaker 2>is a person died by suicide or he's simply suicided.

0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.880
<v Speaker 2>But the reality is the problem reached a point where

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.640
<v Speaker 2>we're essentially losing three people every fortnight and that is

0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.520
<v Speaker 2>continuing as I understand it today. So there was a

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Royal commission. I was appointed as a chair. I was

0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.559
<v Speaker 2>probably an interesting choice because usually judges chair royal commissions,

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>but I was fortunate. I had a form of Supreme

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Court judge from Queensland and a psychiatrist, and the three

0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.720
<v Speaker 2>of us I think brought different perspectives to the table

0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and it worked very well. So it was really an investigation.

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.560
<v Speaker 2>When I asked why they'd picked me, they don't really

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:06.680
<v Speaker 2>tell you, and they don't tell you who nominated you,

0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.720
<v Speaker 2>but they just said, look, you've been in war zones,

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>but you're not military, so you don't have an allegiance

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 2>or anything to the Australian Defense Force, and you've run

0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>major investigations internationally, and this is really an investigation into

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 2>what is going on and how the heck it's happened.

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 2>A couple of interesting things. We think up to eighty

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 2>percent in any given year of people who suicide former

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 2>or serving members of Defense Force have never been to war.

0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.920
<v Speaker 2>So it's really what's happening in the barracks. It's the

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 2>disciplinary system, it's your chain of command treating you badly,

0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.560
<v Speaker 2>it's your workmate's treating you badly. It's that sort of stuff,

0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and I saw a lot of similarities between that and

0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.680
<v Speaker 2>what happens in policing. I'll come back to that. So

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 2>we handed in our final report to the Governor General

0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>in September last year, and I was very happy that

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 2>both the government and the opposition have been supportive of

0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 2>our recommendations. The Government has formally accepted in record time

0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:05.440
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and four out of one hundred and twenty

0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 2>two recommendations, including the main one, which is to establish

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 2>a permanent body to monitor this welfare, these welfare issues

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 2>and report public here and make recommendations publicly. We identified

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.640
<v Speaker 2>about fifty seven inquiries that preceded us over thirty years

0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 2>into all aspects of suicidality, somewhere around seven hundred and

0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.440
<v Speaker 2>seventy recommendations. Out of those fifty seven inquiries, we went

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 2>back and a lot of them had simply there isn't

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 2>a record that they had actually been acquitted, or if

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 2>they have, was the intent of the recommendation actually achieved

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Some of A couple of them were Senate inquiries that

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 2>were quite significant. So hence we I mean I literally

0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 2>lay awake at night saying because people were saying to us,

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 2>veterans were saying to us, you're just a fifty eighth inquiry,

0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 2>nothing will happen, and I just we couldn't have allowed

0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that to happen. So the main recommendation was to have

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.360
<v Speaker 2>a body with teeth like us, like the Royal Commission,

0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.680
<v Speaker 2>to report publicly and frankly embarrass the government, the media

0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and the public undertaking more notice. I mean there's been

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>a distinct lack of interest, I have to say, by

0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:16.320
<v Speaker 2>the media and community generally. The problems with veterans, people

0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.200
<v Speaker 2>were coming back from eight to nine tours of duty

0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.840
<v Speaker 2>of Afghanistan or they've been through some other horrendous experience,

0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and there's a lot of homelessness, incarceration, the problems that

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 2>really widespread misuse of drugs, alcoholism, financial problems. More could

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.600
<v Speaker 2>and should be done, and the earlier do it. The

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Americans call it so in terms of reference, required us

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.320
<v Speaker 2>to look at the five eyes the US, UK, Canada

0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 2>and New Zealand. The Americans call it going to the

0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 2>left of the problem, like where you begin to write

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.880
<v Speaker 2>something and if you get sort of pre emptying if

0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.160
<v Speaker 2>you like the problems. So they're focused on getting to

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 2>the left of the issue before it happens. It's simply preventative.

0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.080
<v Speaker 2>It is. Yeah, I like it a lot. I'm a

0:16:59.080 --> 0:16:59.720
<v Speaker 2>trendy person.

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:01.920
<v Speaker 1>You have to clip up with the trends.

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.160
<v Speaker 2>But it's just I you know, I tossed and turned

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:07.960
<v Speaker 2>when I received the course, saying would you do it?

0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.199
<v Speaker 2>Would you be interested in doing it? I knew it

0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 2>was going to be a hard ask, and it was.

0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.480
<v Speaker 2>It's just you'd have to be in human not to

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>feel something. We did nine hundred odd, just under nine

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.760
<v Speaker 2>hundred private hearings. I only did about three hundred. I'm

0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 2>nearly three hundred, three hundred and fifty odd people gave

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 2>evidence in public, and there's nearly six thousand written submissions

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and we try to read as many of those as

0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.880
<v Speaker 2>we could. The three commissioners I mean, but it does

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.359
<v Speaker 2>take a toll. We would go to a city and

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.400
<v Speaker 2>do two or three or four private hearings or sessions

0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.119
<v Speaker 2>each for a week, and you get to the end

0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.760
<v Speaker 2>of the week and I did feel the impact that

0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.919
<v Speaker 2>what do they call it? You know, where you feel

0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 2>it's not your problem, but you hear it and you

0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.479
<v Speaker 2>really feel for the person that's telling you that story.

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, you've got the empathy. You demonstrate that there's a

0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 1>homicide investigator and understanding now people's PA and you took

0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.239
<v Speaker 1>on a big, big role. Like I remember when I

0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.240
<v Speaker 1>heard that you were doing it, I thought, you're the

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 1>good person for it. And you talked about making people

0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.119
<v Speaker 1>here in preparation for this. I was reading, and I

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.879
<v Speaker 1>remember when you're out there't you weren't pulling back in

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.040
<v Speaker 1>some of the comments you were making about the culture

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:22.159
<v Speaker 1>or that.

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I think it was probably a little bit unusual. Certainly,

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.680
<v Speaker 2>some of our lawyers felt was unusual for the chair

0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 2>of a sitting royal commission to do so much media,

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.720
<v Speaker 2>or to do media at all, and they did advise

0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.920
<v Speaker 2>against it a bit. But I just felt the only

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 2>way we're going to achieve what we wanted to achieve,

0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.800
<v Speaker 2>which was to go public and raise the profile of

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the problems and the issues to such a degree that

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 2>they became undeniable. That was our strategy and I'm happy

0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:49.960
<v Speaker 2>to have led that, and I'm happy to have done

0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Master of the Media in fact, because we needed to

0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.160
<v Speaker 2>get these problems out in the public mind.

0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, I can't speak for everyone in the military, but

0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 1>I know a few people in the military and came up.

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.719
<v Speaker 1>In fact, at New Year's Eve, I was at a party.

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 1>It was a French spy ex fighter pilot at his

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.800
<v Speaker 1>house and there was some military. Yeah, I just thought

0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.040
<v Speaker 1>I dropped that in. But at the New year z

0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.199
<v Speaker 1>e party at his place and then there was some

0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.000
<v Speaker 1>military blokes there and I didn't know a lot of

0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 1>people started talking to him and they said, oh, we're

0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 1>just talking about Nick Caldos, and I set the records

0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.399
<v Speaker 1>straight because they were saying, you're a good guy. But

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.640
<v Speaker 1>they were people from the military, and they were actually

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.119
<v Speaker 1>talking about the commission and what had happened there, and

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah, you said what needed to be said,

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and you identify the point when you made the connection

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.760
<v Speaker 1>between policing and that. Quite often people speak about the policing,

0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.359
<v Speaker 1>and I've had so many cops sit here on the

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.040
<v Speaker 1>podcast or just people I know talk about it wasn't

0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.720
<v Speaker 1>the frustration, or it wasn't the hard of the work.

0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.600
<v Speaker 1>It was a culture fighting the system, fighting the system.

0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.520
<v Speaker 1>And I get the sense speaking to the military, you guys,

0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.920
<v Speaker 1>that's the type of thing that's chipping away.

0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.919
<v Speaker 2>Them, certainly we can share Statistically. For some it is

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.320
<v Speaker 2>the blood and gore and the trauma of the work.

0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.919
<v Speaker 2>For others, it's how the organization treats them. That's the

0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:12.919
<v Speaker 2>only way to describe it.

0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you get lost in the system, and yeah, certainly do.

0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.440
<v Speaker 1>It can break you. I understand that. I think any

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 1>working cop can understand that too. Looking back at your career,

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure what you're going to do next. When

0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.120
<v Speaker 1>you're going to the moon or you there to set

0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:33.760
<v Speaker 1>up something.

0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I haven't really decided. I'm not sure what I want

0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:44.959
<v Speaker 2>to do when I grow up, but I've probably got

0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.120
<v Speaker 2>one or two things left in me. But I don't

0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.080
<v Speaker 2>think I'm going to do this forever. Obviously work forever,

0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.919
<v Speaker 2>but I've got a nice set of golf clubs that

0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.200
<v Speaker 2>was purchased for me at my retirement dinner and from

0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:54.679
<v Speaker 2>the police.

0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:55.439
<v Speaker 1>Have you played?

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I have quite a few games, but not enough

0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.400
<v Speaker 2>nowhere near enough, and I'm still terrible. But I think,

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, if things come up and they're meaningful. Certainly,

0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 2>my role and the Raw Commission was a bit of

0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.680
<v Speaker 2>a first, and the chemical weapons and investigation Palestine, all

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.399
<v Speaker 2>these issues were significant and I thought I could do

0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.680
<v Speaker 2>a lot of good by doing them. I certainly. I

0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 2>think I'm fond of saying I'm a really ordinary bloke

0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.879
<v Speaker 2>who found himself at extraordinary places, sometimes at extraordinary times.

0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Bit of Forest Gump in you is the movie Forrest Gump.

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Not for a lot of years. He just just pretty ordinary.

0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.120
<v Speaker 1>Turns up the ordinary guy in extraordinary times. Something like that.

0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:38.359
<v Speaker 1>You've been very humble.

0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.040
<v Speaker 2>Chosen for those I appreciate that, Yeah, But I just

0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.600
<v Speaker 2>hope I did what I was expected to do the job,

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.120
<v Speaker 2>really to get to get it done. And I hope that.

0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 2>I think I quated in the book. I can't remember

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.080
<v Speaker 2>if I mentioned it. It's one of my favorite sayings

0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:58.320
<v Speaker 2>that so Don Bradman, the famous cricketer. When he retired,

0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.400
<v Speaker 2>he did many interviews and they asked him, what's your

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.800
<v Speaker 2>message for players today? And he said that they have

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.440
<v Speaker 2>a sacred duty to leave the game in better shape

0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.720
<v Speaker 2>than when they found it. And I think that really

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 2>applies to policing and a lot of the investigative work

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:14.760
<v Speaker 2>that you and I have done and others have done.

0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.119
<v Speaker 2>It's about leaving the world in a better place than

0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.400
<v Speaker 2>where you found it. Whether it's righting wrongs, holding bad

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:25.160
<v Speaker 2>people to account, or just making a difference. We put

0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.440
<v Speaker 2>so much thought into how we dealt with everyone who

0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.800
<v Speaker 2>came in contact with the Royal Commission, so trauma informed

0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 2>approach and Peggy Brown, doctor Peggy Brown, who's a psychiatrist,

0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.120
<v Speaker 2>really helped with all of that as well, and James Douglas,

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the Judge, and I were absolutely on board with that,

0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>and the first point of contact for anyone ringing or

0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.159
<v Speaker 2>emailing the Royal Commission was a counselor, and that person

0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.280
<v Speaker 2>theoretically hopefully stuck with them all the way through their

0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>engagement with us, whether they ended up giving evidence in

0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.960
<v Speaker 2>public or private or otherwise. It's about making sure that

0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 2>what our motto was to do no harm. The worst

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:03.520
<v Speaker 2>thing we could have done is to actually hurt people

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.440
<v Speaker 2>in our journey to finding out what was the problems.

0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Offering false hope like it was.

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Exactly that was a whole other problem. I think there

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.239
<v Speaker 2>were huge expectations about what the Raw Commission was going

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.359
<v Speaker 2>to achieve, and I have to say there's some fairly

0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.320
<v Speaker 2>harsh criticism saying, well, you're just going to be another inquiry.

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 2>They're never going to do anything you say. I think

0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.040
<v Speaker 2>The main reason we went to media is to make

0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.760
<v Speaker 2>sure that that didn't happen, that we weren't just another inquiry.

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean the fifty seven inquiries that preceded us. I

0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.840
<v Speaker 2>guarantee you no Prime minister and probably no minister has

0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.200
<v Speaker 2>actually read them thoroughly and demanded that actually be taken.

0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.040
<v Speaker 2>And that's there's a failure of leadership and a number

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:41.600
<v Speaker 2>of levels at the political level, perhaps certainly in the

0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.200
<v Speaker 2>leadership of the ADF. I think more could have been done,

0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:46.680
<v Speaker 2>for sure, and they've seen that now and I think

0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.960
<v Speaker 2>they've embraced the fact that the change needs to occur.

0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, sometimes you got you've got to push that envelope

0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.439
<v Speaker 1>a little bit to get that change. So I know

0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:57.600
<v Speaker 1>it was very strong speaking now that I haven't seen

0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 1>someone speak out in a role that you're in like

0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.840
<v Speaker 1>like you had, But it made people sit up and

0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:08.239
<v Speaker 1>pay attention. Policing, current policing today, it saddens me. And

0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:12.200
<v Speaker 1>I think I've read somewhere very recently there's more applications

0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.440
<v Speaker 1>coming in that might have something to do the pay rise,

0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:18.840
<v Speaker 1>but policing across the country and I think in other

0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.960
<v Speaker 1>countries it's been hard attracting people to policing. What's your

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:25.439
<v Speaker 1>take on that. Why has it become so hard because

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 1>we talk about our careers and we can't keep the

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:30.560
<v Speaker 1>smile off our faces. We enjoyed it so much.

0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.880
<v Speaker 2>And I think we don't regret much at all. Look,

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I think society itself has changed. The ek system has changed.

0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 2>When you and I joined the cops and it's forty

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.919
<v Speaker 2>five years or something for me forty forty four years,

0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 2>we said this is what we're going to do for

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.760
<v Speaker 2>the rest of our lia. Yeah, I don't think that

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:50.880
<v Speaker 2>happens that much now. There's very few people that would

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:54.400
<v Speaker 2>say that. And I think, again relying on memory, we

0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:56.440
<v Speaker 2>were hanging on to people who joined New South Last

0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.199
<v Speaker 2>Beliefs for between five and seven years. It's disappointing, but

0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 2>that society, that's what happens. Now there's something better over there.

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:04.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to go. I'm not committed to this. I

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:06.360
<v Speaker 2>don't have to be here for the rest of my life.

0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.320
<v Speaker 2>But just in policing generally, I'm aware that across the

0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.760
<v Speaker 2>country everyone's having trouble recruiting and now people are looking

0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 2>at bringing people over from New Zealand and the ADFS

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:19.000
<v Speaker 2>looking people looking at bringing people in from other five

0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Ice countries, the English speaking world. I don't know where

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.040
<v Speaker 2>everyone went during COVID, but over your coffee shore by Gatu,

0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.280
<v Speaker 2>they're winging that they can't find people to work in

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:32.960
<v Speaker 2>the coffee shop. It's a problem across society. It's probably

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:35.679
<v Speaker 2>obviously a real issue for policing because you have to

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.639
<v Speaker 2>have the bums on seats, you've got to have the numbers.

0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>I think there's some really good things have happened in

0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:42.960
<v Speaker 2>the last year or so under the Commissioner Karen Web

0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:47.280
<v Speaker 2>She's managed to take out that issue of people having

0:25:47.320 --> 0:25:51.560
<v Speaker 2>to pay to go to university while they're studying, which.

0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Just let's break that down a bit because that had

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.119
<v Speaker 1>been a bugbear, and full credit to her for changing that,

0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:00.640
<v Speaker 1>because that was turning away so many people from policing

0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:03.560
<v Speaker 1>and for the listeners are not aware of what we're

0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:06.640
<v Speaker 1>talking about. You went to the academy study down there

0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:08.720
<v Speaker 1>for months, but you had to pay for the privilege.

0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 1>So you've got people that have got families or mortgages

0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.120
<v Speaker 1>looking to join the police, but they financially couldn't afford it.

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 2>So you're not getting a salary, you're studying full time

0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:20.959
<v Speaker 2>you end up with a hex at a higher education

0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:24.199
<v Speaker 2>tax and you've got to support yourself and if you've

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 2>got kids and a wife, mortgage whatever, you might be down.

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I think it's seven or eight months. You've got to

0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>somehow support yourself through all of that. The worst scholarships given,

0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:34.680
<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't for everyone. There were many that didn't

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:36.280
<v Speaker 2>get a scholarship for one reason or another.

0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Now I had that was a positive change.

0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely positive, and I think you know, a commissioner WEB

0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:43.359
<v Speaker 2>is really doing her best to try and address a

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of these issues that were an absolute speed hump

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 2>for people joining. What I mean, I don't know what

0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:52.199
<v Speaker 2>the intention was when they brought in this system, but

0:26:52.280 --> 0:26:54.639
<v Speaker 2>it was a huge mistake. And I think you know,

0:26:56.720 --> 0:27:00.679
<v Speaker 2>there was at no point did someone say this didn't work. Stop,

0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:03.160
<v Speaker 2>we're going to have to read calibrate.

0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Someone got promoted for suggesting it. I can think of someone,

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:10.440
<v Speaker 1>but I think that would have been the.

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the bottom line is if it's not working, pause

0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.159
<v Speaker 2>and change it. But that just keep it going, you know.

0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>And what it actually did it has topped a lot

0:27:20.720 --> 0:27:23.439
<v Speaker 2>of older people with life experience who may have a

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:28.000
<v Speaker 2>wife and kids and mortgage from joining because you can't

0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:30.640
<v Speaker 2>support Most people can't support themselves for six or seven

0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:35.240
<v Speaker 2>months and then come in on a probationary constable's wage. Look,

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, I really despair when I see the issue,

0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:44.040
<v Speaker 2>and it's just on policing generally. There is an enormous

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>amount of oversight, intrusive oversight on policing in modern society.

0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 2>If you look at car videos, body worn videos, I

0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:58.520
<v Speaker 2>mean everyone's got a phone. Everything you do will be

0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:00.919
<v Speaker 2>on Channel seven that night. All that sort of stuff,

0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:04.280
<v Speaker 2>as well as the really destrictive sort of reporting. That

0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 2>there's any much reporting that the front line or first

0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:11.520
<v Speaker 2>responsibilities have to do. It is onerous and I'm sure

0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:13.800
<v Speaker 2>that people look at it and go, I don't think

0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:17.199
<v Speaker 2>I want to do all that. The job's good, but

0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:23.959
<v Speaker 2>the reporting and the administrative stuff is say, over.

0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:25.679
<v Speaker 1>We almost got lost on the administrative stuff, doesn't it?

0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Or didn't we? I would joke sometimes, Okay, it's two o'clock.

0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:31.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's start doing police work now. Because I've done the

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:33.959
<v Speaker 1>car dories, I've added up the car doors, I've done

0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:36.480
<v Speaker 1>the CMF, I've done the CMS, and I've probably winged

0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:37.720
<v Speaker 1>to you about this.

0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Once or twice. Yeah, So CMF as a command management framework,

0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:44.440
<v Speaker 2>which is really a way of cataloging that everyone's doing

0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the right thing.

0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>I just call them the Sea words. I haven't done

0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 1>the Sea words, but yeah, I would like to see policing.

0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:54.200
<v Speaker 1>I think it's so rigid to the employment. You're either

0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 1>a police officer or another police officer. I would like

0:28:56.760 --> 0:29:00.840
<v Speaker 1>to see some flexibility. Look at you, you reinvigorated yourself

0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:04.160
<v Speaker 1>leaving the police, having time off and coming back and

0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:06.120
<v Speaker 1>then coming back in the police. I think there should

0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:09.040
<v Speaker 1>be much more flexibility for people to do that as well.

0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I actually have suggested that,

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 2>written papers about it over the years. It's not something

0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and the unions are dead against it as well, about

0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:20.560
<v Speaker 2>people moving from one police force to another. Giving people

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:22.959
<v Speaker 2>if you want to go to Queensland because family reasons

0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:24.600
<v Speaker 2>or whatever it might be, it's very difficult. They want

0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:26.800
<v Speaker 2>you to go back to being a probation reconstable after

0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:30.680
<v Speaker 2>twenty years. It's more happening more often now where people

0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.960
<v Speaker 2>are allowed to come in laterally, but it is opposed

0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:35.719
<v Speaker 2>by serving members and probably a lot of the unions

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.840
<v Speaker 2>as well. But the idea of having a break and

0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:41.160
<v Speaker 2>going away and doing something else and then coming back

0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:43.880
<v Speaker 2>with fresh networks. You've refreshed yourself. A change as good

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 2>as a holiday. I found it really refreshing walking away

0:29:46.520 --> 0:29:48.560
<v Speaker 2>and then coming back a year later or six months

0:29:48.640 --> 0:29:51.320
<v Speaker 2>later or whatever. Some organizations do it better than another.

0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Victoria Police have had a program that I tried to

0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:56.920
<v Speaker 2>introduce into the New South Wales where people will going

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to the National Australia Bank, for instance, and having six months.

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 2>You've worked on homicide for seven years, eight years, you're

0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>really worn out, the arm robbery squad, child abuse, all

0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.720
<v Speaker 2>of those things. You need a break. Yeah, go away,

0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:12.080
<v Speaker 2>do something else for six seven, eight months and come

0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:15.320
<v Speaker 2>back fresh our organization. I know this because after I

0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:18.360
<v Speaker 2>left there were people from New Southwest beliefs who went

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:20.560
<v Speaker 2>to work in the United Nations to do something different,

0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:25.160
<v Speaker 2>something really worthwhile, and they were told you've got to

0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:27.800
<v Speaker 2>drop it and come back or we're stacking you. Basically,

0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:28.320
<v Speaker 2>you'll have to go.

0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're only I took twelve months off and I

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.760
<v Speaker 1>hung out with you in Perth for a bit during

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:38.680
<v Speaker 1>that time, but that recharged me. I was doing at

0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:41.680
<v Speaker 1>work out for there, and but I could only take

0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:44.400
<v Speaker 1>twelve months off and then had had to come back.

0:30:44.800 --> 0:30:48.120
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I found it reinvigorated.

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean the other flexible thing which is really

0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:53.120
<v Speaker 2>positive and I have to say the Australian Defense Force

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:55.080
<v Speaker 2>do it very well, which is to let people go

0:30:55.160 --> 0:30:57.040
<v Speaker 2>and do something else and then choose whether to come

0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 2>back or not. But if you come back, you don't

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 2>go back to being a private again. You actually come

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>back at the rank you left and they value the

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:06.200
<v Speaker 2>fact that you've done something completely different and brought back

0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.440
<v Speaker 2>new networks, new way of looking at things, contacts, et cetera.

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Et cetera, beneficial all around.

0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:14.800
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a way to go with policing generally

0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:18.840
<v Speaker 2>in Australia, accepting that that is something that they should encourage.

0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:23.000
<v Speaker 2>And you know, to be fair, partly it's rejected because

0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 2>everyone's that short. They don't want anyone to go anywhere

0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 2>because they need they need them.

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 1>I'd love to see it say we're getting the best

0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:34.680
<v Speaker 1>you see with the state elections, if they increase the

0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 1>police or that's part of the election platform. It always

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.000
<v Speaker 1>worries me because you want you don't want to just

0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:42.440
<v Speaker 1>take the bottom of the barrel. You want more people

0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 1>and taking the best people for policing, because you and

0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.320
<v Speaker 1>I both know one good police officer can make a

0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:51.560
<v Speaker 1>difference on an investigation, or just working in or not

0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:54.920
<v Speaker 1>just working general duties, one good police officer the difference

0:31:54.960 --> 0:32:00.120
<v Speaker 1>they can make in the serving the community.

0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:02.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, you just see the worst of society and

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:05.520
<v Speaker 2>you see the best as well. But the reality is

0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:09.920
<v Speaker 2>you're far more worldly having been a police officer than

0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 2>having been anything else. I think people who do brave

0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:18.120
<v Speaker 2>things in really difficult circumstances as well. You know, we said,

0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.080
<v Speaker 2>We've said it a couple of times, but I certainly

0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>don't regret anything I've had, and I think you'd agree.

0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:27.840
<v Speaker 2>We've had a great career. We've done a lot of

0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:30.000
<v Speaker 2>good and that's really what it comes down to. And

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:32.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think at our core and I have

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.680
<v Speaker 2>a friend I mentioned in the book, Mike Julian, who's

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>a former deputy commissioner from NYPD and he's been the

0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:41.320
<v Speaker 2>head of security in a number of companies. But he

0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:45.240
<v Speaker 2>talks about people having been bullied in their childhood somewhere

0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:48.120
<v Speaker 2>in their life and subconsciously they don't like bullies. They

0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:51.400
<v Speaker 2>want to end bullies. So they joined the police as

0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:53.960
<v Speaker 2>a mechanism for doing that. I mean, I don't remember

0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.320
<v Speaker 2>being bullied too much, but maybe I was, you know,

0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 2>as a migrant who was treated a bit differently when

0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:03.000
<v Speaker 2>we got But I think he's got something there where.

0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.760
<v Speaker 2>One of our call motivations, I think for policing is

0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:09.520
<v Speaker 2>to stand up against those and against bullies and help

0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:12.600
<v Speaker 2>those who can't help themselves. You can't do it for themselves.

0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 1>I think that drives a lot of people for it. Yeah,

0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.200
<v Speaker 1>so is it going to be a second book?

0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's just see how many we sell. I think

0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:24.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I really it's in the hands of

0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:27.240
<v Speaker 2>the gods. And I mean I have to mention my publishers,

0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.000
<v Speaker 2>HarperCollins and all the ladies and the our all ladies

0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:32.960
<v Speaker 2>who have been involved in it. They've been so patient

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 2>with me and gentle I've never done this before. What

0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:37.280
<v Speaker 2>do I know about publishing a book? What did you

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>know about publishing a book? And look at you, but.

0:33:40.800 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 1>Look what everything you taught me.

0:33:44.760 --> 0:33:48.760
<v Speaker 2>But I look, it's been I mean, I don't know

0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:50.400
<v Speaker 2>how I'm going to feel in six months time. But

0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:52.720
<v Speaker 2>at the moment, I finding it very daunting the fact

0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:54.800
<v Speaker 2>that my whole life is sort of out there, and

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't thought it through, I think in some ways,

0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:00.720
<v Speaker 2>But at the end of the day, I'm sort of

0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:02.800
<v Speaker 2>glad I did it. I don't know what reception is

0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>going to get for my kids and my family and

0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.719
<v Speaker 2>my friends and so on. I hope I've got everything right,

0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:09.719
<v Speaker 2>and I make the point in there that any mistakes

0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.360
<v Speaker 2>that might come up, I've got to take responsibility. I

0:34:12.400 --> 0:34:15.840
<v Speaker 2>can't blame anyone else. I do recall having a conversation

0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.240
<v Speaker 2>with Bob Carr, the former premier, when I was beginning

0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:20.640
<v Speaker 2>this process, and he's written many books and he's really

0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:24.839
<v Speaker 2>really high intellect, and he just said to me, you know,

0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:26.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to do the way he talks about Nick.

0:34:26.719 --> 0:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>You must check the facts because human memory is fallible.

0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:32.400
<v Speaker 2>And he says there were things that he could have

0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.839
<v Speaker 2>sworn were white, but when he went back and checked

0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.359
<v Speaker 2>for his books, he found out it was black, and

0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:40.319
<v Speaker 2>he said, he just can't trust your memory. So there's

0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:41.840
<v Speaker 2>been many things where I had to go out and

0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:44.759
<v Speaker 2>dig old records and talk to people and what have you,

0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:46.919
<v Speaker 2>just to make sure I've got it right. I hope

0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>I have, and I hope it's a positive message of

0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.880
<v Speaker 2>a migrant who comes out here without much in their

0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:58.000
<v Speaker 2>pocket and does reasonably well. My family and I have

0:34:58.080 --> 0:35:02.080
<v Speaker 2>been blessed. My brother was a medical doctor. He's a

0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:05.160
<v Speaker 2>practiced for quite some years and then went into the priesthood.

0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:08.400
<v Speaker 2>But he's just finished his PhD on top of his

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:11.840
<v Speaker 2>dock the background. I think you finished it roughly the

0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:14.920
<v Speaker 2>same time his son finished his PhD. Okay, so I'm

0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:16.160
<v Speaker 2>sort of the failure in the family.

0:35:17.239 --> 0:35:20.439
<v Speaker 1>That might be the nick kwdoss. I've got you back

0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:23.640
<v Speaker 1>on here as the academic. Look the book and all

0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.279
<v Speaker 1>the insecurities you've got there, and you've given me a

0:35:26.360 --> 0:35:28.799
<v Speaker 1>lot of advice throughout my career and a lot of help.

0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 1>And I'll give you this. With the book, it is

0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:34.880
<v Speaker 1>confronting putting it out there. And when you it's easy

0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:37.600
<v Speaker 1>when you people are approaching, write a book, write a

0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:39.919
<v Speaker 1>book and gay yep. And then when it gets down

0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:42.200
<v Speaker 1>to the nitty gritty, then you see it actually printed

0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:44.840
<v Speaker 1>out and it's there and you're signing the book and

0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:48.759
<v Speaker 1>you're thinking, oh, this is there's no secrets, this is me.

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 1>But what I'm saying it's enlightening too. It takes pressure

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:56.920
<v Speaker 1>off you. Well, that's who I am, and that's what

0:35:57.040 --> 0:35:59.240
<v Speaker 1>comes across in your book. And I think you finish

0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 1>off your book with the one thing that you say

0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:03.080
<v Speaker 1>that you've got no regrets.

0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean you say to me, I've given you

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:08.439
<v Speaker 2>a lot of advice, probably mast have it unsolicited over

0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:12.520
<v Speaker 2>the years, Gary, but you also have inspired me the

0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:15.760
<v Speaker 2>journey that you've been on and rising from a denterful

0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:18.279
<v Speaker 2>set of circumstances to where you are now. I think

0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:21.360
<v Speaker 2>it's been inspiration on that and the two books you've published.

0:36:21.360 --> 0:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I hap there's the third one. I probably if I

0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:26.520
<v Speaker 2>was going to do another one, I would want to

0:36:26.520 --> 0:36:30.120
<v Speaker 2>focus a bit more on leadership and lessons learned if

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.040
<v Speaker 2>you like. There is a bit of that in there.

0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:34.760
<v Speaker 2>But I mean we really we ended up with hundreds

0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:37.359
<v Speaker 2>of pages and we had to really trim it down. Yeah.

0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, I thought, sitting reading, I thought you might delve

0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:43.960
<v Speaker 1>more into the leadership. But it's a ripping yard and

0:36:44.000 --> 0:36:47.839
<v Speaker 1>there's so many, so many stories there. And look, you're

0:36:47.840 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 1>worried about people being interested in it, as I understand

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:52.400
<v Speaker 1>that there's going to be some future articles in the

0:36:52.440 --> 0:36:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Telegraph on the weekend extracts from your book. So it's

0:36:56.160 --> 0:37:00.440
<v Speaker 1>all all positive stuff and enjoy the speaking and all

0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:04.759
<v Speaker 1>the book Book to a service. You'll get that you.

0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:07.360
<v Speaker 2>And I would have no problem speaking in public and

0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:11.399
<v Speaker 2>all of that. When you're speaking about yourself and your

0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:14.360
<v Speaker 2>life story. I haven't done that before, so this is

0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 2>going to be interesting.

0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, you've certainly lived a life, Nick, and I think

0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:21.280
<v Speaker 1>that's probably a way we'll finish the finish the podcast.

0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for being the friend that you've been for me

0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:27.560
<v Speaker 1>and guiding me through my career and the little things

0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.160
<v Speaker 1>that you do that are very genuine. And you're caught

0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:31.880
<v Speaker 1>up with a member of my family just the other

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:34.160
<v Speaker 1>other week and that was really appreciated.

0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Thanks, thank you for having me Gary. This is a

0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:38.800
<v Speaker 2>fourth podcast we've done together.

0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well you've got more than Pam, but Pam's are

0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:44.839
<v Speaker 1>better detective than me. That's how we'll leave it. That's

0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:47.000
<v Speaker 1>how I'll just that's what I'll get away from this,

0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:48.200
<v Speaker 1>to take away from this.

0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Discussion, Thank you, matte. I wish you every success and

0:37:51.000 --> 0:38:01.799
<v Speaker 2>happiness too. Thanks, cheers, Thank you,