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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Nick Caldos,

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Speaker 1: retired New South Wales Police Deputy Commissioner, United Nations Investigator

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Speaker 1: and recently the Commissioner for the Royal Commission in the

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Speaker 1: Defense and Veteran Suicide. Nick, welcome back, Thank you you've

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Speaker 1: met the talkers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: That's a podcast. Your career, the different things that you've

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Speaker 1: done that is quite quite extraordinary, and I'll keep referencing

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Speaker 1: things from the book because there's little bits and pieces

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Speaker 1: I'm finding out about you that I didn't know. But

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Speaker 1: one of the things I found interesting that your wife Natalie,

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Speaker 1: who's a journalist. When you guys first started getting together,

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Speaker 1: you had to keep it on the quiet because in

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Speaker 1: your position in the police, there was an assumption that

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Speaker 1: you'd be leaking information to Natalie.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it was a widely held assumption. I

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Speaker 2: think there's probably a couple of people there that I

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Speaker 2: didn't get on with who I knew you would weaponize

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Speaker 2: that relationship against me to say that you're going out

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Speaker 2: with a journalist. She was a senior member of the

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Speaker 2: team at the Australian newspaper, and I was the Deputy

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Speaker 2: Commissioner in charge of Cana Terrorism and organized crime and

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other things. I was a member

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Speaker 2: of the National Cana Terrorism Committee, so I knew a

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Speaker 2: lot of what was going on. Anyway, long story short,

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Speaker 2: it was a bit of an issue for a while.

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Speaker 2: I guess one of the reasons I took the Lebanon

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Speaker 2: investigation job was to sort of break that cycle. We're

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Speaker 2: sort of on again, off again, and it was an issue.

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Speaker 2: It was a clash of occupations. So I made a

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Speaker 2: decision to go, and I knew both her and I

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Speaker 2: assuming she agreed to come.

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Speaker 1: With me awkwardly that would help the relationship.

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Speaker 2: I would have been the end of it, really, but

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a way to break that impass

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Speaker 2: if you like, and both of us get away from

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Speaker 2: the environment. She couldn't get a leave of absence, even

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Speaker 2: though she'd done a couple of decades with news cours,

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Speaker 2: so she decided to resign and she followed me, and

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Speaker 2: we got.

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Speaker 1: Married well then lived happily ever after, hopefully. I find

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Speaker 1: that when people think that you're capable of releasing information,

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Speaker 1: because I had some friendships with journalists and it was

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Speaker 1: always yeah, I was hearing when Jubilin's releasing this. I

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Speaker 1: think you're very similar to the way I would go

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Speaker 1: about my time. If I've got something to say in

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Speaker 1: the medium, my name will be on it. When I

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Speaker 1: was in the police or not, I've never been this

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Speaker 1: unknown police sources said that, and I just find it

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Speaker 1: a little bit offensive because it's almost questioning your integrity, isn't.

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Speaker 2: It It is. It's very much questioning here integrity, but

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Speaker 2: in my experience, those who make that allegation are usually

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Speaker 2: the ones who leak yes, and you know, quite in

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Speaker 2: a nasty way. Really it's about hurting individuals.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, and policing. And I was going

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Speaker 1: to mention this in part one. I mentioned that here.

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Speaker 1: I was going to do it on the back of

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Speaker 1: Operation Mascot, but also the murder investigation that you headed

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Speaker 1: up that became an inquiry that was a question in

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Speaker 1: your integrity, the assassination of the politician, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: John Yman, member of Parliament. Yeah, that was like a

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Speaker 2: fifteen year stretch investigation itself, ware for seven or eight years,

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Speaker 2: and then he convicted. He went all the way to

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Speaker 2: the High Court. My memory is he wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 2: have leave to appeal, so he never got to the

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Speaker 2: High Court. And then you know, through connections and pressure,

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Speaker 2: there's some really bad false allegations made in the media

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Speaker 2: in particular, and led to a Royal commission into his conviction.

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Speaker 2: So we had to go through it all again. It

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Speaker 2: was nine months the inquiry went.

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Speaker 1: For and it's hard when your integrity these main question.

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Speaker 2: Is it is. Yeah, I mean, this is how ridiculous

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Speaker 2: that situation was. One of the main allegations which caused

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Speaker 2: him to have an inquiry into his conviction. By the way,

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Speaker 2: the inquiry ended with the Judge pattern saying that he

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Speaker 2: couldn't find a scarec of evidence that I had done

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Speaker 2: anything wrong or that anyone in my team had done

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Speaker 2: anything wrong. But the most ridiculous thing that was alleged

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Speaker 2: is that we planted them murder weapon where it was

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Speaker 2: found and it was matched ballistically with the weapon used

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Speaker 2: to kill John Yuman. Now, the only way we could

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Speaker 2: have planted or I could have planted space to have

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Speaker 2: done it planted the murder weapon is if we had

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Speaker 2: done the murder ourselves and we had possession of the

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Speaker 2: murder weapon we didn't want. It was just ridiculous. We

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Speaker 2: were the first ones. There's a couple of good things

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Speaker 2: come out of it, which also I think recurred when

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Speaker 2: I did the investigation the assassination of the Lebernice primesister, and

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Speaker 2: that's communications analysis. So we proved that full no the

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Speaker 2: murderer had been in the vicinity of the murder at

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Speaker 2: the time of the murder. Then he went to the

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Speaker 2: footbridge at Voyage, a point overlooking George's River and made

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Speaker 2: a number of calls while they're in an attempt to

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Speaker 2: alibi himself. And when we dredged that river and it

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Speaker 2: was a tortuous process, we found the murder weapon right there,

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Speaker 2: So pretty damn it I would have thought so.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't stop the allegations coming. Can we drift

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Speaker 1: into another area you've got expertise in? Is there any

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Speaker 1: area you haven't got expertise in that? Just working through

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Speaker 1: the list terrorism, I'm watching with interest and concern on

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Speaker 1: what's going on the world, and you've got a world

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Speaker 1: view on things. It feels fairly volatile at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of a lot of it feels

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Speaker 1: like trouble brewing without creating creating unnecessary concern. But I

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Speaker 1: notice of relatively recent times the general terrorism threat level

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Speaker 1: is it probable that the head of Asia has decided

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Speaker 1: And that is my understanding, and you'd have a better

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Speaker 1: understanding that it's a greater than fifty percent chance of

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Speaker 1: a non sure attack in the next twelve months. That's

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Speaker 1: why the probable rating provides what's your thoughts on terrorism

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Speaker 1: and all the stuff that And we've seen a couple

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Speaker 1: of things well within the past twelve months are stabbing

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Speaker 1: at the church, what happened at Bondai, things like that,

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Speaker 1: the issues between the Jewish community and the slogans that

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Speaker 1: have been painted, and everything else that's going on. What's

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Speaker 1: what's your take on that?

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Speaker 2: Look. I think it's a very volatile situation at the moment,

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Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that. But we've been there before.

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Speaker 2: If I think of the first golf for the second goal,

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Speaker 2: for September eleven attacks, you could go on and on

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Speaker 2: and on about the incidents that have occurred that affect

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Speaker 2: us here and affect community members in Australia. I don't

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Speaker 2: think it's reasonable for governments to say whatever happens overseas,

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't it shouldn't affect you here. The reality is

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Speaker 2: it does. There are people on all sides who feel

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Speaker 2: very strongly about what's happening in other parts of the world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you haven't mentioned the Ukraine War and the

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Speaker 2: Russian issue. I'm involved with many members or some members

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Speaker 2: of the Ukrainian community and they feel very strongly about

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Speaker 2: what's happening over there as well. But the reality is

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Speaker 2: I hope that the threads hold together the community in

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Speaker 2: New South Wales and Sydney, in Australia are strong enough,

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Speaker 2: the harmony, the cohesiveness is strong enough to unite us

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Speaker 2: rather than divide us. I hope this will pass soon.

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Speaker 2: We all pray for peace. Obviously, there are thousands of

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Speaker 2: people really feeling vulnerable at the moment over there, and

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Speaker 2: it's just a dreadful situation. I don't know that there

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Speaker 2: are going to be any winners out of all of this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, humanity is a loser at the end of

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Speaker 2: it all. But we all, I think we all do

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Speaker 2: our part in Australia and in New South Wales and

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Speaker 2: Sydney to try and keep the harmony, just to make

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Speaker 2: sure that everybody is safe and feel safe. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's obviously anti Semitism has raised its head again. Some

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Speaker 2: of what's been occurring is not necessarily anti Semitism, but

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Speaker 2: it does tend to get classed as that. And certainly

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Speaker 2: Islama Fae has also read it's only a head, not

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Speaker 2: to the same extent. But all of that's unacceptable, and

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Speaker 2: I think we've all said that, you know, quite loudly

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Speaker 2: that it is unacceptable. But it is what's happening over

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Speaker 2: there that's causing all this heated feeling here so we

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Speaker 2: all hope that the problems over there are solved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would take the sting out of it. Dave

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Speaker 1: Gall a friend of yours who we both work with

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Speaker 1: and know well, doctor Dave Gall. Now I had him

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Speaker 1: on the podcast and he's talking about terrorism, and that's

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Speaker 1: his area of expertise, as you know, but talking about

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Speaker 1: if let's say that, without mentioning a specific group, if

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Speaker 1: the right wing become radicalized, then you don't have to

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Speaker 1: just look after the right wing. You're going to look

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Speaker 1: after the left wing because whatever goes, if one becomes

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Speaker 1: more radicalized, the other will up and up. And it

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Speaker 1: just seems like they're up in the anti time and

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Speaker 1: time again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the issues that

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Speaker 2: are occurring at the moment that hasn't received much publicity

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Speaker 2: is the rise of more of a rise. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's always been there, but there is certainly a bit

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Speaker 2: more of a rise in right extreme right wing extreme activity,

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Speaker 2: and I think it suits them when there are problems

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Speaker 2: in other parts of the world and people are marching

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Speaker 2: and so on, and they try and tap into that

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Speaker 2: and use it to their own nefarious ends.

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Speaker 1: How is in policing or law enforcement can we We

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Speaker 1: can't arrest our way out of it or make I

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Speaker 1: don't think just make legislation harder and harder. We've got

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Speaker 1: to take the animosity, we've got to take the anger

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Speaker 1: and the fear away. You are very big when you're

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales police about working with communities, getting

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Speaker 1: communities liaising with the police and making that connection. There

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Speaker 1: is that that that the way we.

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Speaker 2: Can definitely and I think it's the only way to go,

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Speaker 2: is to make friends at a time when there's a

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Speaker 2: neck crisis, and then when bad things happen, you tap

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Speaker 2: into the good will that you've built in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: People can talk to you if you're in authority and

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Speaker 2: so on. But I think, just to your point Gary

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Speaker 2: about the police generally and how what they're going through

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Speaker 2: at the moment across the nation, not just in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: it is wrong absolutely to expect us to arrest our

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Speaker 2: way out of this. There are societal problems, there are

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Speaker 2: issues with radicalization, there are issues with people on the

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Speaker 2: internet and their pajamas in the basement who will never

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Speaker 2: hear about because they're lone wolves and so on, and

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Speaker 2: it's almost unfair to expect the police to solve those problems.

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Speaker 2: There must be more of an all hands on deck

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Speaker 2: approach government departments and the communities and so on, and

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Speaker 2: there is a lot of activity in that space to

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Speaker 2: try and counter that process of radicalization and extremism. And

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Speaker 2: that's the answer, that is really the answer. You can't

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Speaker 2: dump it all on the cops and say just go

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Speaker 2: and arrest everyone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to me that sometimes pause, fire on the pause,

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Speaker 1: fuel on the fire, I should say, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say, certainly, my experience has

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Speaker 2: been that most of the information that has led to

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Speaker 2: significant arrests encountering terrorism have come from the community. So

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Speaker 2: it's about them faith in the authorities to just put

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Speaker 2: their hand up and say, look, this person has run

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Speaker 2: off the rails. You should know and if that happens,

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Speaker 2: then you know, great, Okay.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to get your thoughts on it, because, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know your experience, but the work that you've done overseas,

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Speaker 1: your background and the experience you've had in the police,

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Speaker 1: I was interested in getting your take on it. The

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Speaker 1: Royal Commission for Defense and Veterans suicide. I know in

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Speaker 1: speaking to you it took a toll on you. It

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Speaker 1: was a two year project, three years, three years, and

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Speaker 1: do you want to tell us what you can about that?

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Speaker 2: Sure, I don't think there's any secrets. I mean, we've

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Speaker 2: published a I wish it was a shorter report, but

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Speaker 2: it's seven volumes because we had to there was so

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Speaker 2: much that we found out that we needed to report.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad we tried to limit the number of recommendations

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Speaker 2: and the executive summary and so on, because the shorter

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Speaker 2: it is, the more chance that people were going to

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Speaker 2: read it and really take it on board. We came

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Speaker 2: in at one hundred and twenty two recommendations. I'm very

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Speaker 2: happy that I'll come back to what we did. But

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Speaker 2: I'm really happy that the government and the opposition, in fact,

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Speaker 2: we called for a bipartisan approach. It should be a

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Speaker 2: bipartisan issue. And it's about our military and our veterans

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Speaker 2: who have retired getting to a point where they need

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Speaker 2: they can't see a way out, and they suicide. And

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Speaker 2: I learned that to use the words committing suicide is

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Speaker 2: not acceptable, it's offensive. So what we're supposed to say

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Speaker 2: is a person died by suicide or he's simply suicided.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is the problem reached a point where

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Speaker 2: we're essentially losing three people every fortnight and that is

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Speaker 2: continuing as I understand it today. So there was a

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Speaker 2: Royal commission. I was appointed as a chair. I was

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Speaker 2: probably an interesting choice because usually judges chair royal commissions,

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Speaker 2: but I was fortunate. I had a form of Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court judge from Queensland and a psychiatrist, and the three

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Speaker 2: of us I think brought different perspectives to the table

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Speaker 2: and it worked very well. So it was really an investigation.

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Speaker 2: When I asked why they'd picked me, they don't really

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Speaker 2: tell you, and they don't tell you who nominated you,

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Speaker 2: but they just said, look, you've been in war zones,

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Speaker 2: but you're not military, so you don't have an allegiance

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Speaker 2: or anything to the Australian Defense Force, and you've run

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Speaker 2: major investigations internationally, and this is really an investigation into

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Speaker 2: what is going on and how the heck it's happened.

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Speaker 2: A couple of interesting things. We think up to eighty

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Speaker 2: percent in any given year of people who suicide former

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Speaker 2: or serving members of Defense Force have never been to war.

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Speaker 2: So it's really what's happening in the barracks. It's the

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Speaker 2: disciplinary system, it's your chain of command treating you badly,

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Speaker 2: it's your workmate's treating you badly. It's that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and I saw a lot of similarities between that and

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Speaker 2: what happens in policing. I'll come back to that. So

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Speaker 2: we handed in our final report to the Governor General

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Speaker 2: in September last year, and I was very happy that

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Speaker 2: both the government and the opposition have been supportive of

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Speaker 2: our recommendations. The Government has formally accepted in record time

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Speaker 2: one hundred and four out of one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: two recommendations, including the main one, which is to establish

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Speaker 2: a permanent body to monitor this welfare, these welfare issues

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Speaker 2: and report public here and make recommendations publicly. We identified

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Speaker 2: about fifty seven inquiries that preceded us over thirty years

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Speaker 2: into all aspects of suicidality, somewhere around seven hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy recommendations. Out of those fifty seven inquiries, we went

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Speaker 2: back and a lot of them had simply there isn't

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Speaker 2: a record that they had actually been acquitted, or if

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Speaker 2: they have, was the intent of the recommendation actually achieved

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Speaker 2: Some of A couple of them were Senate inquiries that

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Speaker 2: were quite significant. So hence we I mean I literally

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Speaker 2: lay awake at night saying because people were saying to us,

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Speaker 2: veterans were saying to us, you're just a fifty eighth inquiry,

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Speaker 2: nothing will happen, and I just we couldn't have allowed

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Speaker 2: that to happen. So the main recommendation was to have

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Speaker 2: a body with teeth like us, like the Royal Commission,

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Speaker 2: to report publicly and frankly embarrass the government, the media

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Speaker 2: and the public undertaking more notice. I mean there's been

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Speaker 2: a distinct lack of interest, I have to say, by

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Speaker 2: the media and community generally. The problems with veterans, people

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Speaker 2: were coming back from eight to nine tours of duty

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Speaker 2: of Afghanistan or they've been through some other horrendous experience,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of homelessness, incarceration, the problems that

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Speaker 2: really widespread misuse of drugs, alcoholism, financial problems. More could

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Speaker 2: and should be done, and the earlier do it. The

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Speaker 2: Americans call it so in terms of reference, required us

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Speaker 2: to look at the five eyes the US, UK, Canada

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Speaker 2: and New Zealand. The Americans call it going to the

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Speaker 2: left of the problem, like where you begin to write

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Speaker 2: something and if you get sort of pre emptying if

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Speaker 2: you like the problems. So they're focused on getting to

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Speaker 2: the left of the issue before it happens. It's simply preventative.

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Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, I like it a lot. I'm a

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Speaker 2: trendy person.

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Speaker 1: You have to clip up with the trends.

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Speaker 2: But it's just I you know, I tossed and turned

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Speaker 2: when I received the course, saying would you do it?

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Speaker 2: Would you be interested in doing it? I knew it

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Speaker 2: was going to be a hard ask, and it was.

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Speaker 2: It's just you'd have to be in human not to

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Speaker 2: feel something. We did nine hundred odd, just under nine

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Speaker 2: hundred private hearings. I only did about three hundred. I'm

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Speaker 2: nearly three hundred, three hundred and fifty odd people gave

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Speaker 2: evidence in public, and there's nearly six thousand written submissions

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Speaker 2: and we try to read as many of those as

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Speaker 2: we could. The three commissioners I mean, but it does

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Speaker 2: take a toll. We would go to a city and

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Speaker 2: do two or three or four private hearings or sessions

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Speaker 2: each for a week, and you get to the end

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Speaker 2: of the week and I did feel the impact that

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Speaker 2: what do they call it? You know, where you feel

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Speaker 2: it's not your problem, but you hear it and you

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Speaker 2: really feel for the person that's telling you that story.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got the empathy. You demonstrate that there's a

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Speaker 1: homicide investigator and understanding now people's PA and you took

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Speaker 1: on a big, big role. Like I remember when I

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Speaker 1: heard that you were doing it, I thought, you're the

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Speaker 1: good person for it. And you talked about making people

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Speaker 1: here in preparation for this. I was reading, and I

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Speaker 1: remember when you're out there't you weren't pulling back in

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Speaker 1: some of the comments you were making about the culture

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Speaker 1: or that.

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Speaker 2: I think it was probably a little bit unusual. Certainly,

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Speaker 2: some of our lawyers felt was unusual for the chair

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Speaker 2: of a sitting royal commission to do so much media,

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Speaker 2: or to do media at all, and they did advise

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Speaker 2: against it a bit. But I just felt the only

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Speaker 2: way we're going to achieve what we wanted to achieve,

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Speaker 2: which was to go public and raise the profile of

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Speaker 2: the problems and the issues to such a degree that

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Speaker 2: they became undeniable. That was our strategy and I'm happy

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Speaker 2: to have led that, and I'm happy to have done

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Speaker 2: Master of the Media in fact, because we needed to

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Speaker 2: get these problems out in the public mind.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can't speak for everyone in the military, but

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Speaker 1: I know a few people in the military and came up.

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Speaker 1: In fact, at New Year's Eve, I was at a party.

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Speaker 1: It was a French spy ex fighter pilot at his

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Speaker 1: house and there was some military. Yeah, I just thought

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Speaker 1: I dropped that in. But at the New year z

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Speaker 1: e party at his place and then there was some

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Speaker 1: military blokes there and I didn't know a lot of

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Speaker 1: people started talking to him and they said, oh, we're

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Speaker 1: just talking about Nick Caldos, and I set the records

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Speaker 1: straight because they were saying, you're a good guy. But

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Speaker 1: they were people from the military, and they were actually

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Speaker 1: talking about the commission and what had happened there, and

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you said what needed to be said,

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Speaker 1: and you identify the point when you made the connection

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Speaker 1: between policing and that. Quite often people speak about the policing,

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Speaker 1: and I've had so many cops sit here on the

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Speaker 1: podcast or just people I know talk about it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the frustration, or it wasn't the hard of the work.

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Speaker 1: It was a culture fighting the system, fighting the system.

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Speaker 1: And I get the sense speaking to the military, you guys,

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Speaker 1: that's the type of thing that's chipping away.

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Speaker 2: Them, certainly we can share Statistically. For some it is

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Speaker 2: the blood and gore and the trauma of the work.

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Speaker 2: For others, it's how the organization treats them. That's the

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Speaker 2: only way to describe it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you get lost in the system, and yeah, certainly do.

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Speaker 1: It can break you. I understand that. I think any

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Speaker 1: working cop can understand that too. Looking back at your career,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what you're going to do next. When

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Speaker 1: you're going to the moon or you there to set

385
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Speaker 1: up something.

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Speaker 2: I haven't really decided. I'm not sure what I want

387
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Speaker 2: to do when I grow up, but I've probably got

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Speaker 2: one or two things left in me. But I don't

389
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Speaker 2: think I'm going to do this forever. Obviously work forever,

390
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Speaker 2: but I've got a nice set of golf clubs that

391
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Speaker 2: was purchased for me at my retirement dinner and from

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Speaker 2: the police.

393
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Speaker 1: Have you played?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have quite a few games, but not enough

395
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Speaker 2: nowhere near enough, and I'm still terrible. But I think,

396
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Speaker 2: you know, if things come up and they're meaningful. Certainly,

397
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Speaker 2: my role and the Raw Commission was a bit of

398
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Speaker 2: a first, and the chemical weapons and investigation Palestine, all

399
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 2: these issues were significant and I thought I could do

400
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: a lot of good by doing them. I certainly. I

401
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Speaker 2: think I'm fond of saying I'm a really ordinary bloke

402
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Speaker 2: who found himself at extraordinary places, sometimes at extraordinary times.

403
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Speaker 1: Bit of Forest Gump in you is the movie Forrest Gump.

404
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Speaker 2: Not for a lot of years. He just just pretty ordinary.

405
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Speaker 1: Turns up the ordinary guy in extraordinary times. Something like that.

406
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Speaker 1: You've been very humble.

407
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Speaker 2: Chosen for those I appreciate that, Yeah, But I just

408
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Speaker 2: hope I did what I was expected to do the job,

409
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Speaker 2: really to get to get it done. And I hope that.

410
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Speaker 2: I think I quated in the book. I can't remember

411
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Speaker 2: if I mentioned it. It's one of my favorite sayings

412
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Speaker 2: that so Don Bradman, the famous cricketer. When he retired,

413
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Speaker 2: he did many interviews and they asked him, what's your

414
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Speaker 2: message for players today? And he said that they have

415
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Speaker 2: a sacred duty to leave the game in better shape

416
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Speaker 2: than when they found it. And I think that really

417
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Speaker 2: applies to policing and a lot of the investigative work

418
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Speaker 2: that you and I have done and others have done.

419
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Speaker 2: It's about leaving the world in a better place than

420
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Speaker 2: where you found it. Whether it's righting wrongs, holding bad

421
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Speaker 2: people to account, or just making a difference. We put

422
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Speaker 2: so much thought into how we dealt with everyone who

423
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Speaker 2: came in contact with the Royal Commission, so trauma informed

424
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Speaker 2: approach and Peggy Brown, doctor Peggy Brown, who's a psychiatrist,

425
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Speaker 2: really helped with all of that as well, and James Douglas,

426
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Speaker 2: the Judge, and I were absolutely on board with that,

427
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Speaker 2: and the first point of contact for anyone ringing or

428
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Speaker 2: emailing the Royal Commission was a counselor, and that person

429
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: theoretically hopefully stuck with them all the way through their

430
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Speaker 2: engagement with us, whether they ended up giving evidence in

431
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Speaker 2: public or private or otherwise. It's about making sure that

432
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Speaker 2: what our motto was to do no harm. The worst

433
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Speaker 2: thing we could have done is to actually hurt people

434
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Speaker 2: in our journey to finding out what was the problems.

435
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Speaker 1: Offering false hope like it was.

436
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: Exactly that was a whole other problem. I think there

437
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,239
Speaker 2: were huge expectations about what the Raw Commission was going

438
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: to achieve, and I have to say there's some fairly

439
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: harsh criticism saying, well, you're just going to be another inquiry.

440
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: They're never going to do anything you say. I think

441
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: The main reason we went to media is to make

442
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: sure that that didn't happen, that we weren't just another inquiry.

443
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 2: I mean the fifty seven inquiries that preceded us. I

444
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: guarantee you no Prime minister and probably no minister has

445
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: actually read them thoroughly and demanded that actually be taken.

446
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: And that's there's a failure of leadership and a number

447
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: of levels at the political level, perhaps certainly in the

448
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 2: leadership of the ADF. I think more could have been done,

449
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: for sure, and they've seen that now and I think

450
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: they've embraced the fact that the change needs to occur.

451
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, sometimes you got you've got to push that envelope

452
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: a little bit to get that change. So I know

453
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: it was very strong speaking now that I haven't seen

454
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: someone speak out in a role that you're in like

455
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: like you had, But it made people sit up and

456
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,239
Speaker 1: pay attention. Policing, current policing today, it saddens me. And

457
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: I think I've read somewhere very recently there's more applications

458
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: coming in that might have something to do the pay rise,

459
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: but policing across the country and I think in other

460
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: countries it's been hard attracting people to policing. What's your

461
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: take on that. Why has it become so hard because

462
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: we talk about our careers and we can't keep the

463
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: smile off our faces. We enjoyed it so much.

464
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: And I think we don't regret much at all. Look,

465
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: I think society itself has changed. The ek system has changed.

466
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: When you and I joined the cops and it's forty

467
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: five years or something for me forty forty four years,

468
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: we said this is what we're going to do for

469
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: the rest of our lia. Yeah, I don't think that

470
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 2: happens that much now. There's very few people that would

471
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 2: say that. And I think, again relying on memory, we

472
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: were hanging on to people who joined New South Last

473
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 2: Beliefs for between five and seven years. It's disappointing, but

474
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: that society, that's what happens. Now there's something better over there.

475
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 2: I'm going to go. I'm not committed to this. I

476
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 2: don't have to be here for the rest of my life.

477
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: But just in policing generally, I'm aware that across the

478
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: country everyone's having trouble recruiting and now people are looking

479
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: at bringing people over from New Zealand and the ADFS

480
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: looking people looking at bringing people in from other five

481
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 2: Ice countries, the English speaking world. I don't know where

482
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: everyone went during COVID, but over your coffee shore by Gatu,

483
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: they're winging that they can't find people to work in

484
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 2: the coffee shop. It's a problem across society. It's probably

485
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: obviously a real issue for policing because you have to

486
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 2: have the bums on seats, you've got to have the numbers.

487
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: I think there's some really good things have happened in

488
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: the last year or so under the Commissioner Karen Web

489
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: She's managed to take out that issue of people having

490
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: to pay to go to university while they're studying, which.

491
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 1: Just let's break that down a bit because that had

492
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: been a bugbear, and full credit to her for changing that,

493
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: because that was turning away so many people from policing

494
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: and for the listeners are not aware of what we're

495
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: talking about. You went to the academy study down there

496
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: for months, but you had to pay for the privilege.

497
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: So you've got people that have got families or mortgages

498
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: looking to join the police, but they financially couldn't afford it.

499
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: So you're not getting a salary, you're studying full time

500
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 2: you end up with a hex at a higher education

501
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: tax and you've got to support yourself and if you've

502
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: got kids and a wife, mortgage whatever, you might be down.

503
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: I think it's seven or eight months. You've got to

504
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: somehow support yourself through all of that. The worst scholarships given,

505
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: but it wasn't for everyone. There were many that didn't

506
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: get a scholarship for one reason or another.

507
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: Now I had that was a positive change.

508
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely positive, and I think you know, a commissioner WEB

509
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: is really doing her best to try and address a

510
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: lot of these issues that were an absolute speed hump

511
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: for people joining. What I mean, I don't know what

512
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 2: the intention was when they brought in this system, but

513
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: it was a huge mistake. And I think you know,

514
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: there was at no point did someone say this didn't work. Stop,

515
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: we're going to have to read calibrate.

516
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: Someone got promoted for suggesting it. I can think of someone,

517
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: but I think that would have been the.

518
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the bottom line is if it's not working, pause

519
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: and change it. But that just keep it going, you know.

520
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: And what it actually did it has topped a lot

521
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: of older people with life experience who may have a

522
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: wife and kids and mortgage from joining because you can't

523
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: support Most people can't support themselves for six or seven

524
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: months and then come in on a probationary constable's wage. Look,

525
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, I really despair when I see the issue,

526
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: and it's just on policing generally. There is an enormous

527
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 2: amount of oversight, intrusive oversight on policing in modern society.

528
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: If you look at car videos, body worn videos, I

529
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: mean everyone's got a phone. Everything you do will be

530
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: on Channel seven that night. All that sort of stuff,

531
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: as well as the really destrictive sort of reporting. That

532
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: there's any much reporting that the front line or first

533
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: responsibilities have to do. It is onerous and I'm sure

534
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: that people look at it and go, I don't think

535
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 2: I want to do all that. The job's good, but

536
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 2: the reporting and the administrative stuff is say, over.

537
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: We almost got lost on the administrative stuff, doesn't it?

538
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: Or didn't we? I would joke sometimes, Okay, it's two o'clock.

539
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: Let's start doing police work now. Because I've done the

540
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: car dories, I've added up the car doors, I've done

541
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: the CMF, I've done the CMS, and I've probably winged

542
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: to you about this.

543
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: Once or twice. Yeah, So CMF as a command management framework,

544
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: which is really a way of cataloging that everyone's doing

545
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: the right thing.

546
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: I just call them the Sea words. I haven't done

547
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: the Sea words, but yeah, I would like to see policing.

548
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: I think it's so rigid to the employment. You're either

549
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: a police officer or another police officer. I would like

550
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: to see some flexibility. Look at you, you reinvigorated yourself

551
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: leaving the police, having time off and coming back and

552
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: then coming back in the police. I think there should

553
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: be much more flexibility for people to do that as well.

554
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I actually have suggested that,

555
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: written papers about it over the years. It's not something

556
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: and the unions are dead against it as well, about

557
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: people moving from one police force to another. Giving people

558
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 2: if you want to go to Queensland because family reasons

559
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be, it's very difficult. They want

560
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: you to go back to being a probation reconstable after

561
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: twenty years. It's more happening more often now where people

562
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: are allowed to come in laterally, but it is opposed

563
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 2: by serving members and probably a lot of the unions

564
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: as well. But the idea of having a break and

565
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: going away and doing something else and then coming back

566
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: with fresh networks. You've refreshed yourself. A change as good

567
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: as a holiday. I found it really refreshing walking away

568
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: and then coming back a year later or six months

569
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: later or whatever. Some organizations do it better than another.

570
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: Victoria Police have had a program that I tried to

571
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: introduce into the New South Wales where people will going

572
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: to the National Australia Bank, for instance, and having six months.

573
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: You've worked on homicide for seven years, eight years, you're

574
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: really worn out, the arm robbery squad, child abuse, all

575
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: of those things. You need a break. Yeah, go away,

576
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: do something else for six seven, eight months and come

577
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: back fresh our organization. I know this because after I

578
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: left there were people from New Southwest beliefs who went

579
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: to work in the United Nations to do something different,

580
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: something really worthwhile, and they were told you've got to

581
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: drop it and come back or we're stacking you. Basically,

582
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: you'll have to go.

583
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: Well, you're only I took twelve months off and I

584
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: hung out with you in Perth for a bit during

585
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: that time, but that recharged me. I was doing at

586
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: work out for there, and but I could only take

587
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: twelve months off and then had had to come back.

588
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, I found it reinvigorated.

589
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the other flexible thing which is really

590
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: positive and I have to say the Australian Defense Force

591
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: do it very well, which is to let people go

592
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: and do something else and then choose whether to come

593
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: back or not. But if you come back, you don't

594
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: go back to being a private again. You actually come

595
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: back at the rank you left and they value the

596
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: fact that you've done something completely different and brought back

597
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: new networks, new way of looking at things, contacts, et cetera.

598
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: Et cetera, beneficial all around.

599
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: I think there's a way to go with policing generally

600
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: in Australia, accepting that that is something that they should encourage.

601
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: And you know, to be fair, partly it's rejected because

602
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: everyone's that short. They don't want anyone to go anywhere

603
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: because they need they need them.

604
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: I'd love to see it say we're getting the best

605
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: you see with the state elections, if they increase the

606
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: police or that's part of the election platform. It always

607
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: worries me because you want you don't want to just

608
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: take the bottom of the barrel. You want more people

609
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: and taking the best people for policing, because you and

610
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: I both know one good police officer can make a

611
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: difference on an investigation, or just working in or not

612
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: just working general duties, one good police officer the difference

613
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: they can make in the serving the community.

614
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: You know, you just see the worst of society and

615
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: you see the best as well. But the reality is

616
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: you're far more worldly having been a police officer than

617
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: having been anything else. I think people who do brave

618
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: things in really difficult circumstances as well. You know, we said,

619
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: We've said it a couple of times, but I certainly

620
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: don't regret anything I've had, and I think you'd agree.

621
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: We've had a great career. We've done a lot of

622
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: good and that's really what it comes down to. And

623
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, I think at our core and I have

624
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: a friend I mentioned in the book, Mike Julian, who's

625
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: a former deputy commissioner from NYPD and he's been the

626
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: head of security in a number of companies. But he

627
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: talks about people having been bullied in their childhood somewhere

628
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: in their life and subconsciously they don't like bullies. They

629
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: want to end bullies. So they joined the police as

630
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: a mechanism for doing that. I mean, I don't remember

631
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: being bullied too much, but maybe I was, you know,

632
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: as a migrant who was treated a bit differently when

633
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: we got But I think he's got something there where.

634
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: One of our call motivations, I think for policing is

635
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: to stand up against those and against bullies and help

636
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: those who can't help themselves. You can't do it for themselves.

637
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: I think that drives a lot of people for it. Yeah,

638
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: so is it going to be a second book?

639
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: Well, let's just see how many we sell. I think

640
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. I really it's in the hands of

641
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: the gods. And I mean I have to mention my publishers,

642
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: HarperCollins and all the ladies and the our all ladies

643
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: who have been involved in it. They've been so patient

644
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: with me and gentle I've never done this before. What

645
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: do I know about publishing a book? What did you

646
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: know about publishing a book? And look at you, but.

647
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: Look what everything you taught me.

648
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: But I look, it's been I mean, I don't know

649
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: how I'm going to feel in six months time. But

650
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: at the moment, I finding it very daunting the fact

651
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: that my whole life is sort of out there, and

652
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought it through, I think in some ways,

653
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I'm sort of

654
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: glad I did it. I don't know what reception is

655
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: going to get for my kids and my family and

656
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 2: my friends and so on. I hope I've got everything right,

657
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: and I make the point in there that any mistakes

658
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: that might come up, I've got to take responsibility. I

659
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: can't blame anyone else. I do recall having a conversation

660
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 2: with Bob Carr, the former premier, when I was beginning

661
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: this process, and he's written many books and he's really

662
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: really high intellect, and he just said to me, you know,

663
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do the way he talks about Nick.

664
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: You must check the facts because human memory is fallible.

665
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: And he says there were things that he could have

666
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: sworn were white, but when he went back and checked

667
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: for his books, he found out it was black, and

668
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: he said, he just can't trust your memory. So there's

669
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: been many things where I had to go out and

670
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: dig old records and talk to people and what have you,

671
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: just to make sure I've got it right. I hope

672
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: I have, and I hope it's a positive message of

673
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: a migrant who comes out here without much in their

674
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: pocket and does reasonably well. My family and I have

675
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: been blessed. My brother was a medical doctor. He's a

676
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: practiced for quite some years and then went into the priesthood.

677
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: But he's just finished his PhD on top of his

678
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: dock the background. I think you finished it roughly the

679
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: same time his son finished his PhD. Okay, so I'm

680
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: sort of the failure in the family.

681
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: That might be the nick kwdoss. I've got you back

682
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: on here as the academic. Look the book and all

683
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: the insecurities you've got there, and you've given me a

684
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: lot of advice throughout my career and a lot of help.

685
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: And I'll give you this. With the book, it is

686
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: confronting putting it out there. And when you it's easy

687
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: when you people are approaching, write a book, write a

688
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: book and gay yep. And then when it gets down

689
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty, then you see it actually printed

690
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: out and it's there and you're signing the book and

691
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: you're thinking, oh, this is there's no secrets, this is me.

692
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying it's enlightening too. It takes pressure

693
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: off you. Well, that's who I am, and that's what

694
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: comes across in your book. And I think you finish

695
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: off your book with the one thing that you say

696
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: that you've got no regrets.

697
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you say to me, I've given you

698
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 2: a lot of advice, probably mast have it unsolicited over

699
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: the years, Gary, but you also have inspired me the

700
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 2: journey that you've been on and rising from a denterful

701
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: set of circumstances to where you are now. I think

702
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: it's been inspiration on that and the two books you've published.

703
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: I hap there's the third one. I probably if I

704
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: was going to do another one, I would want to

705
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: focus a bit more on leadership and lessons learned if

706
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: you like. There is a bit of that in there.

707
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: But I mean we really we ended up with hundreds

708
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: of pages and we had to really trim it down. Yeah.

709
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: Well, I thought, sitting reading, I thought you might delve

710
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: more into the leadership. But it's a ripping yard and

711
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: there's so many, so many stories there. And look, you're

712
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: worried about people being interested in it, as I understand

713
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: that there's going to be some future articles in the

714
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: Telegraph on the weekend extracts from your book. So it's

715
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: all all positive stuff and enjoy the speaking and all

716
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: the book Book to a service. You'll get that you.

717
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: And I would have no problem speaking in public and

718
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 2: all of that. When you're speaking about yourself and your

719
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 2: life story. I haven't done that before, so this is

720
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: going to be interesting.

721
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: Well, you've certainly lived a life, Nick, and I think

722
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: that's probably a way we'll finish the finish the podcast.

723
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for being the friend that you've been for me

724
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: and guiding me through my career and the little things

725
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: that you do that are very genuine. And you're caught

726
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: up with a member of my family just the other

727
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: other week and that was really appreciated.

728
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you for having me Gary. This is a

729
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: fourth podcast we've done together.

730
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you've got more than Pam, but Pam's are

731
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: better detective than me. That's how we'll leave it. That's

732
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: how I'll just that's what I'll get away from this,

733
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: to take away from this.

734
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: Discussion, Thank you, matte. I wish you every success and

735
00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 2: happiness too. Thanks, cheers, Thank you,