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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fearing Greed Q and a will we ask

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Speaker 1: and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 1: I'm Suan Almer. As AI continues to boom, the biggest challenge,

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Speaker 1: at least one of the biggest challenges is likely to

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Speaker 1: be electricity demand. How the grid can handle the huge

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Speaker 1: power needs of the data centers running AI. With the

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Speaker 1: big tech company spending hundreds of billions of dollars literally

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Speaker 1: on AI this year alone, data center electricity demand is surging,

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Speaker 1: so it's perhaps no surprise at Australia's latest unicorn is

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Speaker 1: the company that aims to solve AI's energy supply challenge.

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Speaker 1: Nier has just raised ninety million dollars in a funding

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Speaker 1: round that values it above one billion dollars. Jack Curtis

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Speaker 1: is the co founder and chief commercial officer of Nier.

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Speaker 2: Jack.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fearing Greed Q and a thank you for

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Speaker 1: having me Sean. Firstly, congratulations on the business. Nice to

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Speaker 1: be able to raise ninety million dollars to get that

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Speaker 1: sort of valuation.

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Speaker 2: Were you surprised, I think to some extent, I think

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Speaker 2: too another extent, you to the points you're just touching

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Speaker 2: on the introduction we do benefit from just good timing

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Speaker 2: relative to a lot of the macro trends that are

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Speaker 2: underpinning the kind of demand for what we do. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's good to be lucky as well as not too

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Speaker 2: bad at what you do. And I think to some extent,

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Speaker 2: you know, we really were trying to take advantage of

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Speaker 2: those tailwinds. So always pleasantly surprised when things go well,

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Speaker 2: but also benefiting from, you know, a lot of momentum

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Speaker 2: in the space that we cover as well.

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Speaker 1: Now, Jack, in the years to come, If you ever

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Speaker 1: list right and someone asks you that question, you say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're really good. That's very understated.

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Speaker 2: If I ever say that, mate, please please remind me

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Speaker 2: that I once did it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me what Neira is doing, just like

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Speaker 1: Fundat give me a one o one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure thing. So obviously we're a software company. We

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Speaker 2: build digital models of critical infrastructure, primarily today electricity networks.

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Speaker 2: What that means is that we build a three dimensional

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Speaker 2: visual representation of power lines and electricity grids. But that's

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Speaker 2: probably the most reductive thing that we do. What we're

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Speaker 2: really doing that you know, is underpinning I guess the

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Speaker 2: traction we've had so far is we're building behavior models.

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Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is that we take

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Speaker 2: these visual models and we infuse them with all the

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Speaker 2: physics and engineering characteristics of the assets. And so what

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Speaker 2: that means is that the people that own and operate

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Speaker 2: this critical infrastructure, you know, that are responsible for electricity supply,

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Speaker 2: we can give them such a level of confidence that

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Speaker 2: the digital models we're building are such an accurate, not

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Speaker 2: just visual but behavior representation that if they simulate something

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Speaker 2: in the digital model, the likelihood that it's going to

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Speaker 2: essentially manifest similarly in the physical world is very high.

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Speaker 2: And you can only do that when you can bin

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Speaker 2: a visual representation with a very accurate behavior representation of

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Speaker 2: the assets.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going to try and repeat that to

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Speaker 1: you in an example to make sure I've got it right.

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Speaker 1: So we'll come to technology in a moment. Let's that's

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Speaker 1: a mining company that knows that it's got a big

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Speaker 1: mine in central New South Whisos. It's a gold miner.

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Speaker 1: Let's call it Kadia, one of Newman's mind that's out there.

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Speaker 1: They need power the whole time, but there are certain

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Speaker 1: times when they're working they need more power, and so

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Speaker 1: it's all about not just setting up a physical representation

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Speaker 1: of that, but actually being able to model and give

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Speaker 1: the company security over that power supply. So is that

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Speaker 1: broadly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: They're an excellent example, okay, And so think about it

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Speaker 2: in two lenses. The lens you described, which is, how

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Speaker 2: can we identify where power can be made available even

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Speaker 2: if right now we don't know that? And then secondly,

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Speaker 2: if something is going to happen externally that impacts the

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Speaker 2: reliability of that power. So say, for example, if a

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Speaker 2: big dust storm came through or a hurricane came through,

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Speaker 2: we can actually preemptively say what is going to happen

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Speaker 2: to that infrastructure and help them prepare to mitigate that effect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, at the risk of someding really stupid. Where does

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Speaker 1: power come from? And I kind of almost mean that literally.

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Speaker 1: I understand that it comes from renewables and cold fired

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Speaker 1: power stations, et cetera. But it's the transmission mechanism. So

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Speaker 1: let's go to a data center in this instance, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to know that it's going to be peak

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Speaker 1: pool on data centers at certain times of the day,

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Speaker 1: presumably yep. Does the provider of the data center have

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Speaker 1: to well, they have to understand that they need power,

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Speaker 1: But are they the ones that are trying to work

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Speaker 1: out the challenge of how to get the power in

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Speaker 1: when they need more power, et cetera? Is it them?

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Speaker 1: And then where do they get it from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So where does power come from? It comes from

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Speaker 2: two things. It comes from generating assets, so things like solar,

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Speaker 2: when gas historically coal, and then it comes from the

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Speaker 2: electricity network that sports that generation to the people that

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Speaker 2: need it like a data center. Now, over the last

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Speaker 2: kind of five ten years, the constraints around generation, the

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Speaker 2: ability to bring new generations to the system have gone

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Speaker 2: dramatically down, so the cost of renewables has come down.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a whole broader conversation around what the

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Speaker 2: energy mix should be. But for quite a while now,

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Speaker 2: the problem statement hasn't been is generation available or can

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Speaker 2: it be made available? The problem statement is is there

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Speaker 2: enough network capacity to bring that generation to new people

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Speaker 2: that want a lot more energy? And that goes to

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Speaker 2: the crux of the problem statement that we solve, which

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Speaker 2: is assume there's readily available generation that can be brought online,

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Speaker 2: but the ability to access the grid to receive that

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Speaker 2: generation has been challenged for some time now, and so

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Speaker 2: to take your specific example, data center developers and operators

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Speaker 2: are desperately trying to get more data centers up as

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Speaker 2: quickly as possible and running around the world quite literally,

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Speaker 2: trying to find those markets where generation is freely available

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Speaker 2: and network is available. And what we've discovered on our

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Speaker 2: journey in this space is that the number one things

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Speaker 2: slowing down more data centers in Australia and everywhere is

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Speaker 2: access to energy, and specifically access to the grid or

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Speaker 2: access to the electricity network.

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Speaker 1: How big an issue is this if we want to

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Speaker 1: be an AI slash tech driven economy.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty existential. And I don't say that just because

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Speaker 2: I play in the space, but if you look at

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Speaker 2: the broader kind of policy goals of the Australian government generally,

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Speaker 2: and I think they're noble ones. One is to increase productivity,

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Speaker 2: One is to increase Australia's ability to export innovation. And

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Speaker 2: so we actually are a very appealing destination for data

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Speaker 2: center investment. And I heard a scary statistic the other

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Speaker 2: day where someone said to me they don't believe there's

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Speaker 2: enough money in the world to fund the appetite for

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Speaker 2: data centers. I've never heard that before, and so think

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Speaker 2: about all this money looking to invest in data centers.

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Speaker 2: Australia could be a great repository of data center investment.

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Speaker 2: But there's this potential unfortunate irony that unless we make

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Speaker 2: access to getting data centers permitted, land permitting, those usual

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Speaker 2: you know kind of things that are required to get

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Speaker 2: any asset up, but more importantly access to energy, then

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Speaker 2: we might actually miss the opportunity for Australia to build

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Speaker 2: this pillar of productivity because all the world's data center

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Speaker 2: developers are literally just running around the world speaking to

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Speaker 2: government saying how quickly can I get data centers up

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Speaker 2: in your country?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the next part of that question to me,

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Speaker 1: given our capacity now and what's coming online, how much

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Speaker 1: of what you've just talked about can be solved through logistics.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to say nearer in this instance as

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Speaker 1: an example, and how much I mean, what part of

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent can we get to just by doing

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Speaker 1: it smarter?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think there's really two things to it.

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Speaker 2: One is a process problem statement a regulatory problem statement,

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Speaker 2: which is, if you're a data center developer and you

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Speaker 2: come to Australia. You want to know how fast is

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Speaker 2: it for me to get land access, utility access, environmental permitting,

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Speaker 2: all the things that go into just getting an asset

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Speaker 2: into the ground. So I'd describe it as like half

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Speaker 2: a red tape challenge or process challenge, and the other

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Speaker 2: half of the challenge is all right, today we've really

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Speaker 2: focused on building new electricity grids or transmission infrastructure to

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Speaker 2: solve the transportation problem. What we're doing is actually looking

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Speaker 2: at the existing grid and saying you can actually get

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Speaker 2: a lot more out of it just by smarter analysis,

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Speaker 2: smarter assumption, optimization, and really leveraging what we already have.

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Speaker 2: So I'd say the answer is twofold technology can solve

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Speaker 2: the absolute available problem statement, But then we need to

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Speaker 2: supplement that with the right processes and regulatory approvals so

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Speaker 2: that assets can move faster into the ground and not

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Speaker 2: get caught up in regulatory red tape.

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Speaker 1: Are there sectors or maybe economies, because I know you

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Speaker 1: work global with global companies that are just doing this better.

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Speaker 2: Look, the answer is not, really, this is a problem

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Speaker 2: statement that is the world over. It's the problem statement

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Speaker 2: that has constrained energy transition policy the world over. So

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Speaker 2: this problem statement is exactly the same in renewable energy

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Speaker 2: transition policy land lots of renewable generation. It's now very cheap,

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Speaker 2: it can now be made reliable, but not enough grid

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Speaker 2: to connect it to. And so if you just copy

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Speaker 2: paste data center with renewable generating asset, it's the same

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Speaker 2: problem statement. Everyone's trying to solve it. I think that

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen is that it's going to become

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Speaker 2: more and more incumbent on those trying to bring data

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Speaker 2: centers forward to actually take the scope into their own hands.

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Speaker 2: And so now what you're seeing is big data center

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Speaker 2: developers that are building their own generating assets, they're building

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Speaker 2: their own network, and so they're creating an entire ecosystem

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Speaker 2: just because the amount of money behind bringing data centers

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Speaker 2: online is so urgent. And I think to some extent,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's great to see people take outcomes into

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Speaker 2: their own hands, but also a bit of shame because

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Speaker 2: it means that we're not going to fully leverage our

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Speaker 2: inherent advantage just because we can't make the things that

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Speaker 2: are non called data centers readily available, such as data

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Speaker 2: center operators are now taking that into their own hands.

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Speaker 1: So I mean that begs the question on regulation and

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Speaker 1: government policy. Are we heading in the right direction or

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Speaker 1: do we need more?

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Speaker 2: I think the momentum behind it, the sentiment behind it

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Speaker 2: is excellent. I think it's now how do we move

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Speaker 2: that to the most sensible tactical execution. And this whole

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Speaker 2: topic about how to make Australia a destination for investment

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Speaker 2: beyond the core things that Australia has been built on

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Speaker 2: has been well prosecuted for some time. I think now

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Speaker 2: it's quite generally without the subjectivity looking to where technology

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Speaker 2: can actually accelerate this constraint removal and then having a

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Speaker 2: pretty introspective moment around all right, there are other countries

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Speaker 2: that manage to get these assets fast into the ground

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Speaker 2: without creating other downstream problems that everyone wants to avoid.

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Speaker 2: How can we look to best practice in that domain

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Speaker 2: as well?

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Speaker 1: Jack, I've just changed my mind. I think you actually

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Speaker 1: would be a very good CEO. And if you used

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Speaker 1: to come, because after that last answer you've got a

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Speaker 1: down pad. Well done. Thank you very much for talking

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Speaker 1: to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for the time show. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: That was Jack Curtis, co founder and Chief Commercial Officer

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Speaker 1: of Nier. I'm Chanelmer And this is fear and greed,

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Speaker 1: Q and DA