1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: It's Monday, December one, twenty twenty five. China has seized 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: a commanding lead over the United States in sixty six 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: of the seventy four critical technologies that will define the 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: coming era, like AI, space research, environmental engineering and quantum computing. 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: Australia is likely to fall short of the government's twenty 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: thirty target for renewable energy. The Clean Energy Regulator says 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: it's hoping for a better year in twenty twenty six. 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: Those stories are live now at the Australian dot com 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: dot AU. As aircraft become more computerized and even pilotless, 11 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: they're also more vulnerable to space events like the giant 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: solar flare that put an air bus into an commanded 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: dive and grounded thousands of flights over the weekend. So 14 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: should we praise the manufacturer for acting quickly or rethink 15 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: the risk of autopilot systems altogether. Robin eInsight is The 16 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: Australian's aviation writer and she's joining me on what turned 17 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: out to be a chaotic weekend for anyone who was 18 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: trying to fly in America. It's been Thanksgiving weekend and 19 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: a whole lot of families plans have been thrown into 20 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: chaos by the sudden grounding of thousands of aircraft made 21 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: by the European manufacturer Airbus Robin What happened at airports 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: around Australia and around the world on the weekend. 23 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: Well, this directive from Airbus went out late Friday that 24 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: all air Bus A three twenty aircraft, and that was 25 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: a variety of models from the A three one nine, 26 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: the A three one eight and the three twenty one 27 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: as well as the H three twenty that they required 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: software update. That was about five one hundred aircraft worldwide, 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: and another nine hundred of the older models actually needed 30 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: a new on board flight computer altogether. So that directive 31 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: went out and as a result, airlines had no choice 32 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: but to ground those aircraft and carry out the update, 33 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: which in Jetstar's case, had to be carried out for 34 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: thirty four of its A three to twenty aircraft, which 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: took a considerable amount of time given each of the 36 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: software updates took about an hour to carry out. 37 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: A lot of these aircraft that were affected are single 38 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: aisle kind of workhorse planes. What kind of routes are 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: they flying in Australia. 40 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: Well, they fly predominantly domestic routes in Australia, and they 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: also do some short haul international routes, say to Bali, 42 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: to New Zealand, to Fiji. So all of those routes 43 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: were impacted by this directive. 44 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: So what it precipitated this was a sudden loss in 45 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: height on a Jet Blue flight a couple of weeks earlier. 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: Tell me about that what had happened there? 47 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: Yes, the flight was going from Mexico to New Jersey 48 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: and shortly, probably about less than an hour into the flight, 49 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: they experienced this uncommanded loss of altitude that was so 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: sharp a number of passengers were injured, had cuts and bruises. 51 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: So the pilot elected to make an emergency landing at 52 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: Tampa in Florida, and when they arrived, the aircraft was 53 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: looked at. It was grounded until the Federal Aviation Administration 54 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: and Jet Blue carried out an investigation. In the course 55 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: of this investigation, it was discovered that solar radiation had 56 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: impacted a digital component in the onboard computer, and it 57 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: just happened to be that digital component that effects the 58 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: elevator and eleron of the aircraft so affects its ability 59 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: to go up and down. 60 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: The word uncommanded is absolutely terrifying, Robin. It must have 61 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: been horrendous being on that plane. 62 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: It would have been, and particularly so for the pilots 63 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: who wouldn't have really known what was happening. All of 64 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: a sudden, it felt like the aircraft would have taken 65 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: over and it had suddenly started descending despite their best 66 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: efforts to keep it on a steady course. So you 67 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: can understand why they would have been keen to land 68 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: as soon as possible. 69 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: Airbus A through twenty is use something called fly by wire, 70 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: which is the sophisticated computer I guess interface between the 71 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: pilot and the parts of the plane that make it 72 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: go up and down and make it go flaps, elerons 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: and so on. The fly by wire is designed to 74 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: almost soften a pilot's reactions to things, so to interpret 75 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: what the pilot is doing or telling it to do, 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: and then to make that happen. And it's designed to 77 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: avoid any sudden changes or drops in altitude or anything 78 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: like that. The fact that in this instance, the fly 79 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: by wire system is what was operating the air bus 80 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: at the time that it suffered this dive. It speaks 81 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: to how sophisticated modern airplanes are, but it also speaks 82 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: to the fact that the pilot sometimes doesn't actually have 83 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: any control at all. 84 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 2: It's pretty terrifying when you think about it, and that, 85 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: I guess has been an ongoing criticism of Airbus aircraft 86 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: that they do rely so heavily on computers, bowing to 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: an extent, still uses more of a manual operation. I've 88 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: heard it described as using pulleys and cables. I'm not 89 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: quite sure that it's that basic, but the Airbus is 90 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: very much their fly by wire model, where the pilot 91 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 2: is almost secondary to the computers in some instances. 92 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: Is it possible that at some point in the future, 93 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: as planes become more and more sophisticated, that there won't 94 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: actually be human being sitting in cockpits. 95 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: Well, that's certainly the case, and already Airbus is developing 96 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: a freighter aircraft that will only require one pilot, and 97 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: pilots themselves are very concerned about this move. But this 98 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: particular freighter aircraft is very much in demand by airlines 99 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 2: who see considerable financial benefits to it. They see that 100 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 2: it's a safe aircraft because of the technology that's used. 101 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: But how long it is before we move to that 102 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 2: for commercial passenger aircraft is certainly a cause for concern 103 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: within the pilot community and probably in the passenger community too. 104 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: Robin, why was it airbus planes that were so strongly 105 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: affected by this as opposed to other manufacturers like Bowling. 106 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. It sounds like it was 107 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: a time and place issue. It has been described to 108 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: me that solar radiation is the high energy particles that 109 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: collide with the Earth's atmosphere, generating a cascade of secondary particles, 110 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: including neutrons, protons, ions, and photons, And in the context 111 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: of Adonix, neutrons are the primary concern. 112 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm just going to pause here for a sec to 113 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: tell you about solar flares. Now this is coming from 114 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: someone who isn't that interested in space, but I'm suddenly 115 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: paying a lot of attention. A solar flare is when 116 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: a dark spot on the Sun suddenly errupts. Right now, 117 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: the Sun is nearing the peak of its eleven year 118 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: cycle of activity, and throughout November there were solar flares 119 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: and something called coronal mass ejections, where huge volumes of 120 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: plasma exploded out into space. That phenomenon is normal. It's 121 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: what causes the beautiful northern and southern lights, the auroras. 122 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: But it can interfere with electronics, computers, and radio transmitters 123 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: down here on Earth. Our atmosphere blocks most of that, 124 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: but satellites and high flying aircraft are less protected and 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: their computers can be seriously affected. 126 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: And in this instance, neutron struck a digital component in 127 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: the plane, so it may have been a case of 128 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: bad luck rather than something that would have happened more 129 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: in a more widespread Nature's that's my very layman's understanding 130 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: of it, anyway. 131 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, my layman's understanding is that it does something. Potentially, 132 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: if this happens, it can cause something called a bitflip, 133 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: where a zero and a one in a computing system 134 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: are transposed and the computer gets confused. In an airbus 135 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: A three twenty, there are at least three computers on 136 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: board that are flying the plane, and they're supposed to 137 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: be able to override an accident like this happening to 138 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: one computer, it would suggest that the problem is bigger 139 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: than Airbus could have possibly anticipated. 140 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 2: Right Indeed, And I guess that's why it's taken the 141 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: action that it has to do its best to safeguard 142 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: the computers in all other aircraft perhaps didn't have this 143 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: protection before, and to ensure that the chances of something 144 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: like this happening again is very very much minimized. 145 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: I'm hearing praise for Airbus for having taken action quickly 146 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: and for having grounded planes, even turning planes around that 147 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: were in the air at the time that the recall 148 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: was announced. But what's your view, Robin, as someone who's 149 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: covered aviation for a long time. Should we be praising 150 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: Airbus here or should we be concerned that Airbus had 151 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: allowed itself to be in a situation where perhaps its 152 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: computers were not properly protected from solar radiation. 153 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: I do think in this instance they do deserve praise. 154 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: I mean, we look back at the Boweing seven three 155 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: seven Max eight episode where there was one fatal crash 156 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 2: and it was very much linked to this new system 157 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: that Boeing had put on the plane without telling a 158 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 2: lot of people, and rather than taking action then they 159 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: waited until there was a second fatal crash before more 160 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 2: action was taken to ground the aircraft and to rework. 161 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: I guess the computers on board, so they didn't have 162 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: this fault in them. So in that context, I think 163 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: you have to praise Airbus for not mucking around for 164 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: sort of as soon as it realized what was the 165 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: likely cause of this uncommanded drop and altitude for the 166 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: Jet Blue flight, it released the direction to pretty much 167 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: ground most of the A three twenty fleet and make 168 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: these corrections. 169 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: How do you think other manufacturers will be responding now? 170 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: Will they also be looking at the hardening that their 171 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: computer systems have from solar radiation? For example? 172 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: Within the airline community, there's always learnings taken from any 173 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: sort of incident, So there would certainly other aviation companies 174 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: such as Boeing and Braier they would be looking closely 175 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: at this and making a decision as to whether they 176 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: have to take action against their own onboard computers and software. 177 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: That the sort of computers we're talking about, that they're 178 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: closely guarded secrets in the airline industry. So just exactly 179 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, how the Airbus computers differ from others, we 180 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: don't know, but that they would certainly be trying to 181 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: take any lessons that could be learned from it. 182 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: This incident reminds me of other sort of sudden loss 183 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: of altitude moments that have happened in the air in 184 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: recent years. Do you think any of those might have 185 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: been connected to a similar situation? 186 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: Well, I did wonder if they would go back and 187 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 2: look at other other episodes of sudden losses in altitude 188 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: that didn't have an obvious explanation. Often we put them 189 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: down to clear air turbulence. So it will be interesting 190 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: to see if they go back and review some of 191 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: those instances through this lens. 192 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: Coming up? Will this moment cause airlines and manufacturers to 193 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: rethink the trend towards fully automated flying. You're a regular 194 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: passenger as well as an aviation expert, Robin does knowing 195 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: a lot about the way planes work and the safety 196 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: of ours guys make you a more nervous flyer or 197 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: a less nervous flyer. And how do you behave on 198 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: a plane with all of this in the back of 199 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: your mind. 200 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: Well, to an extent, it makes me more confident because 201 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: I know that the chances of anything going wrong greatly 202 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: minimized in the air, just because it does have such 203 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: a safety first focus. But also knowing that take off 204 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: and landings are that the highest risk phases of the 205 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: flight makes me very nervous. On landing, I have to 206 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: say I do get a bit anxious until that the 207 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: plane actually, you know, comes to a stop. But during 208 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: the cruise flight, you know, the chances of anything going 209 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: wrong is so small that you're better off up there 210 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: than you would be down on the road. 211 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: Will this be an inflection point do you think, Robin? 212 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: In the way we think about the computerization of flying 213 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: and perhaps the measures that manufacturers and operators need to 214 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: take to keep their aircraft safe. 215 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: It's hard to imagine them stepping back from computerization because 216 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: it is such an integral part of aircraft manufacturing. So 217 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine this would and especially given the 218 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: fact that there weren't any fatalities involved. There wasn't a 219 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 2: whole loss. Makes me suspect that although it's been taken 220 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: very seriously, it's not going to result in a dramatic change. 221 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: Robin Einside is The Australian's aviation writer. You can check 222 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: out all Robin's reporting, plus the rest of Australia's best 223 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: journalism anytime at the Australian dot com dot au