1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: A pot production. 2 00:00:14,401 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your Host 3 00:00:16,521 --> 00:00:19,801 Speaker 2: Adam Shann. In July this year, I attended the funeral 4 00:00:20,041 --> 00:00:23,481 Speaker 2: of Bertram Douglas Kidd, who was one of Australia's most 5 00:00:23,521 --> 00:00:28,681 Speaker 2: complete crooks. A safe breaker, armed robber, race fixer, dedicated 6 00:00:28,681 --> 00:00:32,521 Speaker 2: corruptor of police and most likely a multiple murderer who 7 00:00:32,601 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: killed out of convenience or revenge. It didn't much matter. 8 00:00:36,001 --> 00:00:38,481 Speaker 2: I'd met kid within the walls of Gold and Supermac's 9 00:00:38,521 --> 00:00:40,561 Speaker 2: prison before his release from jail. 10 00:00:41,641 --> 00:00:44,921 Speaker 3: One of Australia's oldest criminals, eighty one year old Robert 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 3: Bertie Kidd, says he'll fight a plan to deport him 12 00:00:48,361 --> 00:00:51,681 Speaker 3: back to his native United Kingdom when he's released from 13 00:00:51,801 --> 00:00:52,841 Speaker 3: prison next month. 14 00:00:53,881 --> 00:00:57,801 Speaker 2: He was a much reduced figure. Jail had essentially broken him. 15 00:00:58,001 --> 00:01:00,401 Speaker 2: In fact, it was hard to imagine that this little 16 00:01:00,441 --> 00:01:05,041 Speaker 2: old man had once been one of Australia's most ruthless crooks, 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,521 Speaker 2: developed a reputation as a master safecutter, armed robber, burglar 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:10,681 Speaker 2: and standover man. 19 00:01:11,041 --> 00:01:13,321 Speaker 3: He was a well rounded, violent criminal who'd take any 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,721 Speaker 3: opportunity without concern for the welfare of the community of 21 00:01:16,801 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 3: New South Wales. 22 00:01:18,721 --> 00:01:20,881 Speaker 2: He was serving a long stretch for a series of 23 00:01:20,961 --> 00:01:24,481 Speaker 2: vicious home invasions, but his run had finished in Queensland 24 00:01:24,481 --> 00:01:27,521 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven when he was arrested during a 25 00:01:27,601 --> 00:01:31,521 Speaker 2: robbery of a chemical factory in Brisbane. He was already 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,561 Speaker 2: sixty two at the time, an age when most crooks 27 00:01:34,601 --> 00:01:37,561 Speaker 2: are leaving this to younger villains, but here he was 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: shooting that with police before wisely surrendering. Police called Kid 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,081 Speaker 2: one of the country's most dangerous old school villains. He 30 00:01:47,121 --> 00:01:49,081 Speaker 2: told me he'd gotten ay with many things in his 31 00:01:49,201 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: criminal career, and now he's dead. The stories will be told. 32 00:01:54,041 --> 00:01:56,001 Speaker 2: I was contacted by one of the police officers who 33 00:01:56,041 --> 00:01:59,041 Speaker 2: put Kid away in nineteen ninety seven, and he's agreed 34 00:01:59,081 --> 00:02:02,921 Speaker 2: to fill in the gaps of Kid's CV, including several 35 00:02:03,001 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: unsolved murders and disappearances. It's my pleasure to welcome forming yourself. 36 00:02:07,601 --> 00:02:10,481 Speaker 2: I was Detective Philip Short to the Real Crime Studio, 37 00:02:10,521 --> 00:02:11,761 Speaker 2: did I phil there? 38 00:02:11,761 --> 00:02:11,841 Speaker 1: You? 39 00:02:12,001 --> 00:02:16,401 Speaker 2: Adam, tell me how did Bert Kidd rank amongst the 40 00:02:16,481 --> 00:02:18,321 Speaker 2: villains you dealt with over your long career. 41 00:02:19,081 --> 00:02:23,321 Speaker 1: He was certainly probably the most vicious and violent criminal, 42 00:02:23,601 --> 00:02:24,761 Speaker 1: for sure, one hundred percent. 43 00:02:25,321 --> 00:02:28,081 Speaker 2: And how did you first come to be involved in 44 00:02:28,161 --> 00:02:28,961 Speaker 2: taking him down. 45 00:02:29,841 --> 00:02:32,441 Speaker 1: I was at the organized crime branch and Kid came 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,081 Speaker 1: to the attention of police when we had information that 47 00:02:36,161 --> 00:02:39,761 Speaker 1: he was going to import some automatic machine pistols into Australia. 48 00:02:40,921 --> 00:02:43,001 Speaker 1: The job wasn't handed to me, it was handed to 49 00:02:43,041 --> 00:02:47,001 Speaker 1: another team and they had a strategy of introducing an 50 00:02:47,081 --> 00:02:50,441 Speaker 1: undercover officer into kids orbit, trying to get me into 51 00:02:50,481 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: his criminal mendew and trying to get some more information 52 00:02:54,361 --> 00:02:57,921 Speaker 1: on this importation. And how I came to be involved 53 00:02:58,001 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: is that in mid nine to ninety seven a police 54 00:03:01,281 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: force was being reorganized under a new commissioner. An organized 55 00:03:05,161 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: ryan was being shut down and everyone was being transferred away. 56 00:03:09,401 --> 00:03:11,281 Speaker 1: So I was still there and the job was just 57 00:03:11,361 --> 00:03:13,521 Speaker 1: handed to me to be the case officer of it. 58 00:03:13,641 --> 00:03:16,761 Speaker 1: So I inherited the job about mid nineteen ninety seven. 59 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,961 Speaker 2: Okay, and what was your strategy on approaching Kid Well. 60 00:03:22,081 --> 00:03:25,401 Speaker 1: The strategy was to continue with the undercover officer being 61 00:03:25,441 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: introduced to Kim's orbit and to get that done, he 62 00:03:28,841 --> 00:03:31,201 Speaker 1: was introduced to a fellow by name a Gary Page. 63 00:03:32,361 --> 00:03:34,441 Speaker 1: Our Page is an old school crook who had done 64 00:03:34,441 --> 00:03:38,121 Speaker 1: time for manslaughter and he was a close associate of Kid. 65 00:03:38,801 --> 00:03:41,761 Speaker 1: So our undercover officer had a number of meetings with 66 00:03:41,921 --> 00:03:45,121 Speaker 1: Page over the months. They were productive and that we 67 00:03:45,161 --> 00:03:50,041 Speaker 1: bought some one out slots of heroin off Page and 68 00:03:50,081 --> 00:03:52,841 Speaker 1: they were of a fairly high purity, so there probably 69 00:03:52,921 --> 00:03:56,601 Speaker 1: straight from the importer. And we also purchased two Smith 70 00:03:56,641 --> 00:04:00,081 Speaker 1: and Wesson revolvers. Now those guns had the serial numbers 71 00:04:00,161 --> 00:04:03,601 Speaker 1: filed off them, but through forensic we were able to 72 00:04:03,641 --> 00:04:05,761 Speaker 1: find out what those numbers will there, and it turns 73 00:04:05,801 --> 00:04:08,681 Speaker 1: out they were stolen during an armor guard robbery some 74 00:04:08,921 --> 00:04:12,161 Speaker 1: years earlier. So we had had some success, but the 75 00:04:12,241 --> 00:04:14,561 Speaker 1: undercover officer never got to make Kid. 76 00:04:15,041 --> 00:04:19,521 Speaker 2: Because Bertie was very, very cautious about undercovers. He dealt 77 00:04:19,521 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: with police a lot. I mean, in his early days 78 00:04:21,761 --> 00:04:24,761 Speaker 2: in Victoria, he actually had police on his payroll who 79 00:04:24,801 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: would tell him where to find the juicy safe that 80 00:04:27,561 --> 00:04:30,881 Speaker 2: he'd liked to break into. So he understood police procedures, 81 00:04:31,041 --> 00:04:34,041 Speaker 2: he understood the use of undercovers. So you had to 82 00:04:34,081 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: approach him with a high level of skill and caution, 83 00:04:37,561 --> 00:04:38,041 Speaker 2: and we did. 84 00:04:38,081 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: We didn't surveil him with physical surveillance because he was 85 00:04:41,521 --> 00:04:44,561 Speaker 1: under counter surveillance all the time. He wasn't lazy, he 86 00:04:44,601 --> 00:04:48,001 Speaker 1: wasn't a lazy crook. He was always on and he 87 00:04:48,041 --> 00:04:51,161 Speaker 1: wouldn't talk over the phone, or if he met with 88 00:04:51,241 --> 00:04:53,881 Speaker 1: another crook, he'd meet in the park or go to 89 00:04:53,921 --> 00:04:57,241 Speaker 1: a park. So it was very hard to get anything 90 00:04:57,241 --> 00:04:58,161 Speaker 1: on him. 91 00:04:58,521 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: And so you have a stroke of luck in that 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,161 Speaker 2: your team gets transferred to the NCAA, the National Crime Authority, 93 00:05:05,361 --> 00:05:06,841 Speaker 2: which was always a good thing back in the day 94 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,681 Speaker 2: because they had all the resources, plenty of money, plenty 95 00:05:09,721 --> 00:05:13,001 Speaker 2: of guns, plenty of technology. What was the reason the 96 00:05:13,081 --> 00:05:14,081 Speaker 2: NCAA got involved. 97 00:05:14,841 --> 00:05:18,681 Speaker 1: Well, initially, organized crime was shut down and we were 98 00:05:18,681 --> 00:05:23,641 Speaker 1: transferred to another investigative unit called the Special Investigation Unit, 99 00:05:24,401 --> 00:05:28,001 Speaker 1: and we continued on there with our investigation. And we 100 00:05:28,001 --> 00:05:29,681 Speaker 1: were only there for about two or three weeks and 101 00:05:29,721 --> 00:05:33,281 Speaker 1: we got an overnight transferred to the NCAA myself from 102 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,601 Speaker 1: the whole team, and that was fortuitous, and that we 103 00:05:37,601 --> 00:05:40,561 Speaker 1: were transferred to a small office that was run by 104 00:05:40,561 --> 00:05:43,641 Speaker 1: an officer who was a detective chief and inspect there 105 00:05:43,681 --> 00:05:46,881 Speaker 1: at the time called Bob Ingst. He's pretty well known 106 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,921 Speaker 1: amongst police circles, very famous, very competent detective and he 107 00:05:50,961 --> 00:05:54,361 Speaker 1: had a couple of other COVID investigations running so we 108 00:05:54,521 --> 00:05:59,041 Speaker 1: just fitted into that office and we continued as we 109 00:05:59,041 --> 00:06:02,481 Speaker 1: were Because prior to moving to the National Crime Authority, 110 00:06:03,481 --> 00:06:06,521 Speaker 1: I considered that the job was burned because our undercover 111 00:06:06,601 --> 00:06:09,601 Speaker 1: officer went a bit off script. He and Page went 112 00:06:09,641 --> 00:06:13,041 Speaker 1: to the city to meet with a well known heroine importer. 113 00:06:14,081 --> 00:06:16,281 Speaker 1: He was faced to go there and meet, get what 114 00:06:16,401 --> 00:06:19,561 Speaker 1: information he could, and then return, get in his own 115 00:06:19,601 --> 00:06:23,761 Speaker 1: car and leave. Unfortunately, came out with Page. Two other 116 00:06:23,841 --> 00:06:28,241 Speaker 1: males got in a different car and left. Our physical 117 00:06:28,281 --> 00:06:31,361 Speaker 1: surveilance wasn't set up to take another car away, so 118 00:06:31,401 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: we lost him for a short time. So we had 119 00:06:33,401 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: to activate the sirens and the surilans cars and try 120 00:06:36,361 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: and locating the people in the car with their undercover officer. 121 00:06:40,841 --> 00:06:44,281 Speaker 1: They heard the approaching sirens stop the car, got out 122 00:06:44,281 --> 00:06:47,081 Speaker 1: and walked away, so I think their antennas are up 123 00:06:47,121 --> 00:06:49,681 Speaker 1: that there was something on after that. I think it 124 00:06:49,761 --> 00:06:52,481 Speaker 1: was too dangerous to send the undercover back. 125 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,361 Speaker 2: In right because Page seemed to twig that there might 126 00:06:56,401 --> 00:06:59,121 Speaker 2: be a listing device on his phone, and I presume 127 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: was telling his mates, including Kid. 128 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: Well. I don't think Page twigged. I think Kid told 129 00:07:04,841 --> 00:07:08,521 Speaker 1: him because we were only the National Crime Authority for 130 00:07:08,641 --> 00:07:11,921 Speaker 1: a number of days when Page was on his phone 131 00:07:11,961 --> 00:07:13,881 Speaker 1: telling people that he thought there was a bug in 132 00:07:14,001 --> 00:07:17,961 Speaker 1: his phone. So he left the unit and returned a 133 00:07:18,001 --> 00:07:20,641 Speaker 1: short time later, and he went as straight where a 134 00:07:20,721 --> 00:07:24,401 Speaker 1: listing device was hidden. Now, you wouldn't have known where 135 00:07:24,401 --> 00:07:26,281 Speaker 1: it was. You wouldn't have found it unless you were 136 00:07:26,321 --> 00:07:29,281 Speaker 1: told where it was. So I'm assuming that kid had 137 00:07:29,321 --> 00:07:31,601 Speaker 1: some intel where the listing device was. 138 00:07:32,721 --> 00:07:35,721 Speaker 2: Things just go from bad to worse because you arrest 139 00:07:35,801 --> 00:07:39,601 Speaker 2: Page on some drug and firearms offenses and the following 140 00:07:39,681 --> 00:07:42,361 Speaker 2: day your unit gets raided and staff detained. 141 00:07:42,361 --> 00:07:46,281 Speaker 1: Why was that, well, we were rated at the National 142 00:07:46,321 --> 00:07:50,521 Speaker 1: Crime Authority. The Special Investigation Unit was raided unberknownst to us. 143 00:07:50,641 --> 00:07:55,401 Speaker 1: There was a Police Integrity Commission investigation and internal affairs 144 00:07:55,481 --> 00:08:00,281 Speaker 1: investigation into a certain staff member there that subsequently left 145 00:08:00,281 --> 00:08:03,001 Speaker 1: to a pic hearing, and there was only one officer 146 00:08:03,081 --> 00:08:05,001 Speaker 1: that was found to be corrupted out of the whole group. 147 00:08:06,161 --> 00:08:08,001 Speaker 1: It really tainted the whole group. 148 00:08:08,601 --> 00:08:11,441 Speaker 2: So this really throws U spanner in the works. You've 149 00:08:11,481 --> 00:08:14,001 Speaker 2: now got to go to a new strategy. In October 150 00:08:14,081 --> 00:08:16,321 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, you get a new informant who was 151 00:08:16,361 --> 00:08:17,441 Speaker 2: that well. 152 00:08:17,441 --> 00:08:20,921 Speaker 1: We received information at that time. Already at that time 153 00:08:20,961 --> 00:08:25,801 Speaker 1: we'd identify whose kids likely team were to commit crying 154 00:08:25,881 --> 00:08:28,921 Speaker 1: and that was of course Page, but he was under 155 00:08:29,001 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: arrest and bar refused. And there was a fellow called 156 00:08:31,641 --> 00:08:36,481 Speaker 1: Mark Middleton, an old school crook called Eric murray In Smith, 157 00:08:36,521 --> 00:08:41,521 Speaker 1: who was a prison officer in Brisbane, which was surprising now. 158 00:08:41,601 --> 00:08:45,561 Speaker 1: How Smith got into their criminal group was Middleton was 159 00:08:45,601 --> 00:08:50,161 Speaker 1: in a Brisbane prison where Smith was working and they 160 00:08:50,201 --> 00:08:53,641 Speaker 1: got to be friends. And when Middleton got out of prison, 161 00:08:53,841 --> 00:08:57,481 Speaker 1: they continue to be friends and Smith joined their criminal group. 162 00:08:58,601 --> 00:09:02,961 Speaker 2: He proved to be the weak link which arguably brought 163 00:09:03,121 --> 00:09:07,361 Speaker 2: kid down. Your informant, you still can't name him because 164 00:09:07,401 --> 00:09:10,161 Speaker 2: you never know, and this life, it can be dangerous 165 00:09:10,201 --> 00:09:13,721 Speaker 2: for informants, even their children if the informant is dead. 166 00:09:14,081 --> 00:09:17,521 Speaker 2: But this informant was giving you a lot of historical information, 167 00:09:18,161 --> 00:09:22,921 Speaker 2: including probably a couple of murders that kid had committed 168 00:09:22,921 --> 00:09:25,081 Speaker 2: back in the nineteen seventies. Tell us more about that. 169 00:09:25,521 --> 00:09:27,521 Speaker 1: Yeah, when I say informant, this was just someone that 170 00:09:27,601 --> 00:09:30,241 Speaker 1: came forward and gave us information. So he wasn't really 171 00:09:30,681 --> 00:09:32,841 Speaker 1: working that much with us, but he gave us some 172 00:09:32,881 --> 00:09:35,521 Speaker 1: good information. And one of the bits that we got 173 00:09:35,721 --> 00:09:39,041 Speaker 1: was that Kid had murdered two witnesses in the seventies, 174 00:09:39,641 --> 00:09:42,161 Speaker 1: and we were told that the two were involved in 175 00:09:42,201 --> 00:09:45,841 Speaker 1: a safe job in Victoria with Kid and when Bus said, 176 00:09:45,841 --> 00:09:48,441 Speaker 1: they had agreed to inform mon him try and help 177 00:09:48,521 --> 00:09:51,841 Speaker 1: themselves with any sentencing. And we're also told that one 178 00:09:51,841 --> 00:09:53,721 Speaker 1: of them worked at the business they broke into. 179 00:09:54,401 --> 00:09:58,121 Speaker 2: It was Spindler and Pollock. That's really the business. Yeah. 180 00:09:58,241 --> 00:10:01,161 Speaker 1: Now we're also told that Kid disposed of their bodies 181 00:10:01,161 --> 00:10:04,721 Speaker 1: in a vertical hole. And he told us that Kid 182 00:10:04,721 --> 00:10:07,241 Speaker 1: owned a Jesus had a post driller on a truck 183 00:10:07,681 --> 00:10:10,401 Speaker 1: and they did work all over Victoria and that's what 184 00:10:10,481 --> 00:10:14,761 Speaker 1: he used to dig a hole and Barry's victim. So 185 00:10:14,881 --> 00:10:17,961 Speaker 1: due to the witnesses disappearing, he walked on that particular 186 00:10:18,041 --> 00:10:19,321 Speaker 1: matter and it didn't proceed. 187 00:10:19,921 --> 00:10:24,281 Speaker 2: Yeah, those two individuals were Leo Albert Martel and Brian 188 00:10:24,601 --> 00:10:28,201 Speaker 2: Lawrence Keating. Bubba Martell as he was known, was quite 189 00:10:28,241 --> 00:10:30,681 Speaker 2: a close associate of Kid for quite a while. And 190 00:10:31,201 --> 00:10:33,841 Speaker 2: there's been a couple of books written on Kid. And 191 00:10:33,921 --> 00:10:36,841 Speaker 2: in the book, he talks about this whole incident and 192 00:10:37,241 --> 00:10:40,081 Speaker 2: he goes into the police station and he sees Bubba 193 00:10:40,121 --> 00:10:44,161 Speaker 2: Martel talking to the police, and of course that sort 194 00:10:44,161 --> 00:10:47,201 Speaker 2: of coded information there, because Kid used to say that 195 00:10:47,321 --> 00:10:50,281 Speaker 2: you never talked to police unless you got your lawyer 196 00:10:51,041 --> 00:10:55,361 Speaker 2: with you. So the insinuation was that Buba was giving 197 00:10:55,401 --> 00:11:00,681 Speaker 2: information freely, which was not a good sign for Buba's health. 198 00:11:01,201 --> 00:11:05,721 Speaker 2: So as they're getting closer to the proceedings there, they 199 00:11:05,761 --> 00:11:10,081 Speaker 2: both disappear. Martel and Keating, that's. 200 00:11:09,921 --> 00:11:12,481 Speaker 1: Right, and the fellow we were looking at. He was 201 00:11:12,561 --> 00:11:15,161 Speaker 1: thirty five at the time of the offense and he'd 202 00:11:15,201 --> 00:11:18,521 Speaker 1: be ninety two now and Keating was twenty five at 203 00:11:18,521 --> 00:11:20,961 Speaker 1: the time of the offense and he'd be eighty two now. 204 00:11:21,081 --> 00:11:23,361 Speaker 1: So they've been missing for fifty four years. 205 00:11:24,001 --> 00:11:26,441 Speaker 2: And yet when I look on the Victoria Police Missing 206 00:11:26,481 --> 00:11:28,321 Speaker 2: Persons website, they're not even mentioned. 207 00:11:29,121 --> 00:11:31,561 Speaker 1: Well, we made it after Kid was arrested. We made 208 00:11:31,961 --> 00:11:35,801 Speaker 1: inquiries ourselves. That's what we found. There wasn't a stroke 209 00:11:35,841 --> 00:11:39,561 Speaker 1: of a pen in relation than being missing. And it 210 00:11:39,641 --> 00:11:43,721 Speaker 1: was unusual in that Martella had been married twice and 211 00:11:44,001 --> 00:11:47,561 Speaker 1: I understand that he's de facto second wife died about 212 00:11:47,601 --> 00:11:50,641 Speaker 1: a year before his disappearance, but he had so he 213 00:11:50,721 --> 00:11:53,441 Speaker 1: was a single father to I think it was five children. 214 00:11:53,561 --> 00:11:55,321 Speaker 1: I could be wrong there, but it was quite a 215 00:11:55,361 --> 00:12:00,161 Speaker 1: few and he just disappeared. And we did speak to 216 00:12:00,321 --> 00:12:02,801 Speaker 1: one of his siblings and they said, yeah, he wouldn't 217 00:12:02,801 --> 00:12:06,001 Speaker 1: have done that until we hadn't heard heard from him 218 00:12:06,561 --> 00:12:09,281 Speaker 1: since seventy one to ninety seven. They hadn't heard from him. 219 00:12:10,041 --> 00:12:13,321 Speaker 2: That's unfortunate for the family because I'm sorry, if it 220 00:12:13,361 --> 00:12:16,481 Speaker 2: was me, i'd expect this case to still be open, 221 00:12:16,801 --> 00:12:18,881 Speaker 2: that there might be information that could be lady even 222 00:12:18,921 --> 00:12:21,801 Speaker 2: today to bring some sort of closure to his children, 223 00:12:22,281 --> 00:12:23,401 Speaker 2: both of their children's. 224 00:12:23,921 --> 00:12:28,961 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fairly old now fifty four years. It's certainly suspicious, 225 00:12:28,961 --> 00:12:33,601 Speaker 1: and I don't think they've just gone walk about. In fact, Keating. 226 00:12:34,481 --> 00:12:36,721 Speaker 1: I spoke to one of the detectives from Malvin who 227 00:12:36,801 --> 00:12:39,921 Speaker 1: was in charge of the case at the time, and 228 00:12:39,961 --> 00:12:41,761 Speaker 1: he told me that Keating had made a call to 229 00:12:41,841 --> 00:12:44,881 Speaker 1: his barrasses saying he's on his way to court the 230 00:12:44,961 --> 00:12:47,481 Speaker 1: day of the court hearing, and he just disappeared, never 231 00:12:47,561 --> 00:12:50,841 Speaker 1: turned up, So that narrows down his disappearance still a 232 00:12:50,841 --> 00:12:51,601 Speaker 1: couple of hours. 233 00:12:52,641 --> 00:12:55,001 Speaker 2: Were you surprised that the Vics didn't want to take 234 00:12:55,041 --> 00:12:57,161 Speaker 2: this up and maybe even go and speak to the 235 00:12:57,201 --> 00:12:57,881 Speaker 2: dirtie kid. 236 00:12:59,041 --> 00:13:02,841 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. Maybe this' noted under. I don't 237 00:13:02,841 --> 00:13:05,321 Speaker 1: know what. I made a statement in nine and he 238 00:13:05,481 --> 00:13:09,561 Speaker 1: ate about our information to Victoria Police and maybe the 239 00:13:09,601 --> 00:13:11,721 Speaker 1: follow it up and they found him. I just don't know. 240 00:13:12,481 --> 00:13:14,121 Speaker 2: I don't think they had been found as far as 241 00:13:14,161 --> 00:13:17,121 Speaker 2: I know. I was checking with my contacts and it's 242 00:13:17,161 --> 00:13:19,881 Speaker 2: just sort of a gap. It's a gap in history 243 00:13:20,081 --> 00:13:24,321 Speaker 2: the whereabouts of Martel and Keating. The informant also gave 244 00:13:24,361 --> 00:13:27,401 Speaker 2: you information about another possible murder that Bertie was involved 245 00:13:27,401 --> 00:13:28,641 Speaker 2: with or potentially involved with. 246 00:13:29,161 --> 00:13:31,081 Speaker 1: Well, this was a funny one in that there wasn't 247 00:13:31,161 --> 00:13:33,721 Speaker 1: much infa really. He said a kid murdered a bloke 248 00:13:33,761 --> 00:13:36,641 Speaker 1: who was a foreign man. He murdered him because he 249 00:13:36,721 --> 00:13:39,961 Speaker 1: beat a former girlfriend of kids, and the possible location 250 00:13:40,161 --> 00:13:42,281 Speaker 1: was Double Bay where they did the murder. And that 251 00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:44,161 Speaker 1: was about it. So there wasn't much to go on. 252 00:13:45,281 --> 00:13:49,521 Speaker 1: But I read Kid's second book, The Notorious Kid, and 253 00:13:49,681 --> 00:13:51,841 Speaker 1: he was in here, as he comments in a chapter 254 00:13:51,921 --> 00:13:56,001 Speaker 1: titled Operation Jerry, where he states that Jerry had a 255 00:13:56,041 --> 00:13:59,281 Speaker 1: thick guttural check accent and that he beat and stole 256 00:13:59,361 --> 00:14:03,081 Speaker 1: from Margo, a former girlfriend of kids, and Kids states 257 00:14:03,081 --> 00:14:06,321 Speaker 1: that he and friends visited Jerry told him to go 258 00:14:06,361 --> 00:14:08,521 Speaker 1: to a safe house where he would be given a 259 00:14:08,521 --> 00:14:10,561 Speaker 1: plane ticket the following day, and he was at leave 260 00:14:10,601 --> 00:14:15,361 Speaker 1: Australia and not return. I'd be skeptical of that outcome. 261 00:14:16,001 --> 00:14:19,041 Speaker 2: Yeah, he might not have made it to the airport unfortunately. 262 00:14:19,521 --> 00:14:22,841 Speaker 2: And there's also suspicion that Bertie might have had a 263 00:14:22,921 --> 00:14:25,201 Speaker 2: role in the death of his girlfriend a bit later 264 00:14:25,281 --> 00:14:30,641 Speaker 2: on Christine Christiotti, who was quite wealthy and a beautiful woman. 265 00:14:30,681 --> 00:14:34,161 Speaker 2: They had a child together. She also chose to give 266 00:14:34,201 --> 00:14:36,721 Speaker 2: evidence against Bertie Kid and nothing good came of it 267 00:14:36,761 --> 00:14:37,081 Speaker 2: for her. 268 00:14:37,761 --> 00:14:40,121 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think bert had anything to do with 269 00:14:40,161 --> 00:14:43,241 Speaker 1: her death. She was a bit of a sad case. 270 00:14:43,281 --> 00:14:45,921 Speaker 1: She was an own heroin addict in Australia and she 271 00:14:46,001 --> 00:14:48,361 Speaker 1: inherited a sizeable sum of money and went to live 272 00:14:48,401 --> 00:14:52,681 Speaker 1: in Balin. She returned to Australia in nineteen ninety eight 273 00:14:52,761 --> 00:14:55,401 Speaker 1: when Kid was in jail and was likely to do 274 00:14:55,441 --> 00:14:59,881 Speaker 1: a long stint. She was interviewed by police and did 275 00:14:59,961 --> 00:15:03,721 Speaker 1: not divulge anything, whether it was from fear of Kid 276 00:15:03,801 --> 00:15:08,001 Speaker 1: or whatever. Prior to her returning to Balley, she attended 277 00:15:08,041 --> 00:15:11,321 Speaker 1: her accountant where she gave instructions about her estate that 278 00:15:11,841 --> 00:15:13,921 Speaker 1: Kid was not to have anything to do with her 279 00:15:14,081 --> 00:15:16,441 Speaker 1: estate and everything was to go to her son, who 280 00:15:16,481 --> 00:15:21,681 Speaker 1: she shared with Kid. So they were her last spoken 281 00:15:21,721 --> 00:15:25,281 Speaker 1: words to her accountant. She returned to Balley and overdosed 282 00:15:25,361 --> 00:15:28,961 Speaker 1: on heroin shortly after returning. So I don't think Bert 283 00:15:29,001 --> 00:15:30,881 Speaker 1: was enrolled in that murder. 284 00:15:31,561 --> 00:15:33,521 Speaker 2: And you don't think she was giving evidence against. 285 00:15:33,321 --> 00:15:36,761 Speaker 1: Him at that stage. No. It may have changed once 286 00:15:36,761 --> 00:15:41,881 Speaker 1: a sentence was handed down, but at that stage no, she. 287 00:15:41,841 --> 00:15:43,961 Speaker 2: Was clearly terrified of him, and she was an experienced 288 00:15:44,001 --> 00:15:49,361 Speaker 2: heroin addict. It's unusual that an experienced addict would overdose 289 00:15:49,481 --> 00:15:53,281 Speaker 2: like that. There was suspicion about this, There's certainly suspicion, 290 00:15:53,361 --> 00:15:56,321 Speaker 2: but not enough to go forward with. It happened in 291 00:15:56,361 --> 00:16:00,321 Speaker 2: another jurisdiction. You didn't get forensics. It was just another 292 00:16:00,921 --> 00:16:04,361 Speaker 2: unfortunate drug death. Maybe if it occurred in Australia where 293 00:16:04,401 --> 00:16:05,841 Speaker 2: forensics could have done a bit more. 294 00:16:05,961 --> 00:16:06,801 Speaker 1: Who knows. 295 00:16:07,281 --> 00:16:10,641 Speaker 2: Anyway, rolling back to the main game, you're now looking 296 00:16:10,681 --> 00:16:14,841 Speaker 2: at Kid and as he called it, a project was emerging. 297 00:16:14,881 --> 00:16:17,161 Speaker 2: What was that project that you were starting to get 298 00:16:17,201 --> 00:16:19,441 Speaker 2: a sense of as you worked on him. 299 00:16:19,881 --> 00:16:22,801 Speaker 1: The project that we were working on in just prior 300 00:16:22,841 --> 00:16:27,041 Speaker 1: to his arrests in late November early December ninety ninety seven, 301 00:16:27,681 --> 00:16:31,401 Speaker 1: electronic and physical silence was increased as we believe the 302 00:16:31,521 --> 00:16:34,641 Speaker 1: Kidney's crew were going to do another home invasion and 303 00:16:34,681 --> 00:16:37,801 Speaker 1: this time in Castle Cove in Sydney. So we had 304 00:16:37,921 --> 00:16:40,961 Speaker 1: kid Middleton and Murray was surveiled on a number of 305 00:16:41,001 --> 00:16:45,321 Speaker 1: occasions going to an address in Castle Cove. The last 306 00:16:45,361 --> 00:16:47,761 Speaker 1: of our observations are only four days before they did 307 00:16:47,841 --> 00:16:50,761 Speaker 1: their job in Queensland. Now they went through a number 308 00:16:50,761 --> 00:16:54,801 Speaker 1: of occasions. They make observations that get out of their car, 309 00:16:54,961 --> 00:16:59,161 Speaker 1: walk around and that fitted him with information received that 310 00:16:59,241 --> 00:17:02,441 Speaker 1: when kid did things like home invasions, he'd do dry 311 00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:06,081 Speaker 1: runs so that if he was and the police were 312 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: watching him, but move in. So our strategy was we'd 313 00:17:10,921 --> 00:17:13,201 Speaker 1: observe them, but if they tooled up to do a job, 314 00:17:13,921 --> 00:17:16,281 Speaker 1: we had to stay protection group on stand by a 315 00:17:16,321 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: short distance a way to move in. We did dawn 316 00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: off that particular street and we determined the victim was 317 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: most likely the owner of a Chinese restaurant, again looking 318 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: for cash. 319 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 2: But not a criminal, just a business person going about 320 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:31,441 Speaker 2: their commerce. 321 00:17:32,001 --> 00:17:34,281 Speaker 1: No, he's targets were wealthy people. 322 00:17:34,521 --> 00:17:37,321 Speaker 2: Because he liked to say that he only went after 323 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 2: bullies and crooks. Was that true when you could look 324 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: at this series of home invasions? 325 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,561 Speaker 1: No, no, no, we're already looking at him for two 326 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,561 Speaker 1: home invasions. He did want of Boney Bay in Sydney 327 00:17:50,681 --> 00:17:54,281 Speaker 1: South where he had information again that the victim had 328 00:17:54,521 --> 00:17:58,801 Speaker 1: cash on the premises. So the three offenders Middleton, Kid 329 00:17:58,961 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: and Smith into the premises and bailed up a husband 330 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: and his wife. Now the mail was down in a 331 00:18:06,481 --> 00:18:10,521 Speaker 1: kid beating with a small sledgehammer, broke numerous bones and 332 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: colluding a fractioned skull. But the victim couldn't tell him 333 00:18:14,281 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: that the cash was because he wasn't leaning on the premises. 334 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: So in the end, kid put the shotgun to his 335 00:18:19,521 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: head and pulled the trigger. It didn't go off. So 336 00:18:23,241 --> 00:18:25,761 Speaker 1: whether that was a bluff or old amminition, who knows. 337 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,801 Speaker 1: As particularly vicious home invasion, and the male victim recovered, 338 00:18:31,801 --> 00:18:34,521 Speaker 1: but his wife was in remission from cancer and she 339 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: actually died before the trial. The three of them were 340 00:18:37,721 --> 00:18:40,521 Speaker 1: convicted for that bet offense, and. 341 00:18:40,481 --> 00:18:43,561 Speaker 2: They came a lot later. But meanwhile, you're now looking 342 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: at him with some urgency because he's red hot he's 343 00:18:46,561 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: an old man, but he's red hot now and you 344 00:18:48,721 --> 00:18:51,561 Speaker 2: see that he may have a target in Brisbane, a 345 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,161 Speaker 2: factory up there. How did that come to light? 346 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,281 Speaker 1: Well, that came to light because we picked up through 347 00:18:57,321 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: electronic surveillance between Smith and his wife. They were talking 348 00:19:01,801 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: in code, but it wasn't much of a code, so 349 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:07,921 Speaker 1: we were able to determine that they're going to rob 350 00:19:07,961 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: a chemical factory in the Brisbane suburb of rock Lee. 351 00:19:12,321 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: It was going to occur most likely on a Friday, 352 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: the troth of December, around the close of business. So 353 00:19:18,921 --> 00:19:22,561 Speaker 1: due to that information, we up the surveillance on Smith 354 00:19:22,761 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: in Brisbane and Middleton in Sydney, and we put a 355 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,281 Speaker 1: loose watching kid, but we didn't want to do anything 356 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,121 Speaker 1: too much. 357 00:19:29,281 --> 00:19:31,561 Speaker 2: Well why was that because he was pretty he was 358 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: on the ball. 359 00:19:33,041 --> 00:19:37,521 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he practiced counter surveillance all the time, so 360 00:19:37,561 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: that kicked off the surveillance operation for that And on 361 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: the tenth of December Middleton collected another man called Brett 362 00:19:45,681 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: Newcomb and they traveled by a car to Brisbane and 363 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,321 Speaker 1: the New South Wales and NCAA surveillance teams they had 364 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: eyes on them the whole time. In Brisbane, Smith was 365 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,521 Speaker 1: observed to go and buy a white Ford panel van. 366 00:20:00,201 --> 00:20:02,801 Speaker 1: He bought it under a different name, and his wife 367 00:20:02,921 --> 00:20:04,921 Speaker 1: Ronica drave him to pick up car. 368 00:20:05,921 --> 00:20:08,761 Speaker 2: And this is now Smith, the former prison officer, who's 369 00:20:08,801 --> 00:20:11,281 Speaker 2: the weak Lincoln, the whole thing. I mean, it almost 370 00:20:11,281 --> 00:20:14,441 Speaker 2: seems like to me that Bertie's almost passed it. He's 371 00:20:14,481 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: compromised his methods, he's working with people he shouldn't and 372 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,001 Speaker 2: gave you guys an absolute in and now you're following 373 00:20:21,041 --> 00:20:24,081 Speaker 2: all the steps going up to the robbery. 374 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:28,001 Speaker 1: One hundred percent, leaving an absolute breadcrumb trail. I thought 375 00:20:28,001 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: the same thing. Kids working with the prison officer who 376 00:20:30,961 --> 00:20:34,201 Speaker 1: is always going to roll if they get caught, And 377 00:20:34,561 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: if I can put it this way, they're not proper criminals. 378 00:20:36,761 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: They did things of proper criminals wouldn't do so at 379 00:20:40,521 --> 00:20:43,001 Speaker 1: that stage, we're the end of the eleventh of December 380 00:20:43,481 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: in Smith, Middleton and Yarcom. We had eyes on them 381 00:20:46,921 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: all the time. They are observed to buy go to 382 00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:54,161 Speaker 1: hardware shops and buy plastic buckets, gloves, plastic bags. They 383 00:20:54,201 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: went to Railway Crescent, Rockley and they were making observations 384 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,561 Speaker 1: of where the chemical factory was located, so that was 385 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: a good indicator that that was the place. 386 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: Following day, I believe Kid flies to Brisbane and meets 387 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: the other three at the Breakfast Creek Hotel. Good steaks there, 388 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 2: but they went there for the food, that's right. 389 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,521 Speaker 1: I thank you every visiting policemen from New South Wales 390 00:21:17,561 --> 00:21:20,761 Speaker 1: been to the Breakfast Creek Hotel anyway, they observed to 391 00:21:20,801 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: meet there. And what was interesting is one of the 392 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: surveillance guys from Brisbane, who didn't know what Kid looked like, 393 00:21:27,241 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: went into the hotel and observed the meeting and he 394 00:21:29,961 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: said to three of them met up with an old 395 00:21:31,681 --> 00:21:34,241 Speaker 1: guy who was the meanest old guy I've ever seen 396 00:21:34,241 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: in my life. So Kid was laying down the wall. 397 00:21:37,961 --> 00:21:41,961 Speaker 1: Yeah he's pumpkin on. He looked a big mean So. 398 00:21:41,961 --> 00:21:43,721 Speaker 2: How many people were involve? This is a big deal 399 00:21:43,721 --> 00:21:46,561 Speaker 2: because Bertie's a big ticket item now, string of home 400 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: invasions a pedigree as long as your arm. There was 401 00:21:50,241 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: not going to be any mistakes here. There was a 402 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,001 Speaker 2: big team involved well from. 403 00:21:53,801 --> 00:21:57,321 Speaker 1: The surveillance teams. For instance, the National Crime AUTH already 404 00:21:57,321 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: had twelve surveillance operatives TRIEL vehicles. We had the New 405 00:22:01,481 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: South Wales and Queensland silence squads on it all at 406 00:22:04,281 --> 00:22:07,281 Speaker 1: the same time, so there was plenty of roll over 407 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:09,721 Speaker 1: with the vehicles and they had eyes on the whole 408 00:22:09,761 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: crew the whole time. 409 00:22:11,201 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: What was the target in this factory? I believe it 410 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,121 Speaker 2: was pseudo effigent. Bertie had always, I guess, talked big 411 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: about hating drugs and so forth, but instead of refigen 412 00:22:19,721 --> 00:22:22,321 Speaker 2: was one of those key ingredients in making amphetamines and 413 00:22:22,321 --> 00:22:25,481 Speaker 2: ecstasy and so forth. That's right, And their info was 414 00:22:25,521 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 2: that they could get a forty four gallon drummer this 415 00:22:27,961 --> 00:22:30,721 Speaker 2: stuff which were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. 416 00:22:31,281 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: But the whole prelude to this job. You're right in 417 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: that kids losing it to a fair Debreathe he didn't 418 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: do a dry run. He's trusting people he shouldn't trust, 419 00:22:40,961 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: and they're not picking up that they're being followed. So 420 00:22:43,321 --> 00:22:45,281 Speaker 1: it was a fitting ding, I think. 421 00:22:46,241 --> 00:22:48,321 Speaker 2: But there was still a dramatic moment to come because 422 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,761 Speaker 2: kid leads the raid on the factory. 423 00:22:50,801 --> 00:22:54,041 Speaker 1: What happened what happened there is probably not up to 424 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,401 Speaker 1: me to say, because we briefed the Queensland Police all 425 00:22:57,441 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: the time on everything we had, and we sent a 426 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,321 Speaker 1: couple of officers up to Lias because at that stage 427 00:23:04,521 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: Kid didn't leave to go up to Coeensleyan till the 428 00:23:07,241 --> 00:23:08,961 Speaker 1: troth at the sent of the day of the robbery, 429 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,321 Speaker 1: but they are observed to drive the white Penaline from 430 00:23:13,521 --> 00:23:17,201 Speaker 1: two Rock Lee. They parked outside of the chemical factory. 431 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: They don the masks and heat of the premises. With 432 00:23:21,521 --> 00:23:25,081 Speaker 1: Kid having a three five seven magnum Smith and Wisdom 433 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: revolver which was owned by Smith, he was licensed to 434 00:23:28,201 --> 00:23:28,801 Speaker 1: have the gun. 435 00:23:29,521 --> 00:23:31,961 Speaker 2: Oh my god, bad move. 436 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,321 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he's as guilty as the person who pulls 437 00:23:35,321 --> 00:23:37,001 Speaker 1: the trigger. So he's an idiot. 438 00:23:37,041 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the usual m I would have been 439 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,561 Speaker 2: defined a stolen weapon with no serial numbers, no connection 440 00:23:42,681 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 2: to anybody. So this was again an evidentiary trail that 441 00:23:47,281 --> 00:23:49,921 Speaker 2: would sink them all. Although of course he was captured. 442 00:23:49,961 --> 00:23:52,321 Speaker 2: But I mean there was other bungles as well, because 443 00:23:52,321 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: when they get in there, they discover the pseudo's not 444 00:23:55,241 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 2: even there. Their target was not even available. 445 00:23:58,561 --> 00:24:02,321 Speaker 1: That's right. It's not like a bird kid job planned 446 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: at all. It was like, you know, this is your 447 00:24:04,761 --> 00:24:06,961 Speaker 1: first or second robbery. To be honest, we were lucky. 448 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,921 Speaker 1: He'd really stuffed it up, you know. It paid off 449 00:24:09,961 --> 00:24:13,321 Speaker 1: for us. We were lucky and he was unlucky due 450 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:18,401 Speaker 1: to his own incompetence. So Sir of the Coinsline Special 451 00:24:18,441 --> 00:24:21,521 Speaker 1: Emergency responds to him, I think they're the guys dressed 452 00:24:21,561 --> 00:24:23,801 Speaker 1: in black with the big weapons, and they weren't on 453 00:24:23,801 --> 00:24:27,921 Speaker 1: the scene. And at the time the offenders entered the factory, 454 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: but all the surveillance teams were so they ended a 455 00:24:31,961 --> 00:24:34,481 Speaker 1: factory in demand at the shootout, which they couldn't get. 456 00:24:34,561 --> 00:24:37,961 Speaker 1: So they got some other prohibited drugs that they got 457 00:24:38,001 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: from the factory, which probably weren't worth a lot. And 458 00:24:40,921 --> 00:24:44,001 Speaker 1: inside the factory, which proved what a old school crook 459 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,361 Speaker 1: kid was, he found a second rear entrance. Now, at 460 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,761 Speaker 1: the conclusion of the robbery, kids sent the other three 461 00:24:49,761 --> 00:24:53,241 Speaker 1: offenders out to their vehicle and he waited inside. At 462 00:24:53,281 --> 00:24:55,681 Speaker 1: that stage, suit were on the scene in a bolo 463 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,001 Speaker 1: that vehicle in and the other three gave up without 464 00:24:59,001 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: a fight. 465 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,281 Speaker 2: But Kid's not finished yet. He goes out through that 466 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,521 Speaker 2: back door and he sees a surveillance operative in the 467 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,561 Speaker 2: vehicle a short distance away. He doesn't give up. 468 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,321 Speaker 1: We've got on this. Surnalians that he was actually approaching 469 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:15,761 Speaker 1: the rear insurance slowly and Kid didn't run away from it. 470 00:25:15,801 --> 00:25:18,041 Speaker 1: He ran to it and started to shoot at the vehicle. 471 00:25:18,481 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: So the surveillance officer got out of his car and 472 00:25:20,721 --> 00:25:24,721 Speaker 1: returned fire. They think he fired four shots, and Kid 473 00:25:24,721 --> 00:25:28,001 Speaker 1: and the officer it's shane shots with bullets going through 474 00:25:28,001 --> 00:25:31,401 Speaker 1: the roof the door in the rear window, and eventually 475 00:25:31,441 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: one bullet ricocheted off the roof and struck the officer 476 00:25:34,761 --> 00:25:39,161 Speaker 1: in the wrist. He fell to the ground and Kid 477 00:25:39,201 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: took off trying to escape through a construction area. 478 00:25:43,321 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: And they're still in hot pursuit of the Sert officers 479 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,321 Speaker 2: and they're firing warning shots. I mean, at this point, 480 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,721 Speaker 2: sense prevails because it's pretty likely here that unless kid 481 00:25:51,721 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 2: gives up, he's going to be full of holes. The 482 00:25:53,921 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: Sert officers, the soldier cops, they're not going to let 483 00:25:56,041 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: him go, and they're ready for the fight. And he's 484 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,761 Speaker 2: also been firing at Queensland Police officers already, so I 485 00:26:02,801 --> 00:26:06,881 Speaker 2: guess all bets are off they can shoot this offender. Yeah, 486 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: and I think they're entitled a shooting there and then, 487 00:26:08,761 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: to be honest, But anyway, they fired into the ground. 488 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 2: You know, he went to the dirt straight away. He 489 00:26:14,201 --> 00:26:18,001 Speaker 2: just laid on his stomach, Henes outstretched right. That was 490 00:26:18,041 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: the end of a I'm not going to call it 491 00:26:19,681 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 2: a magnificent run, but certainly a long run. And he 492 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,801 Speaker 2: gets charged with m robbery, violence and company attempted murder 493 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: shooting to avoid apprehension. How did you feel when you 494 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: were when you heard all about this. 495 00:26:31,681 --> 00:26:33,241 Speaker 1: It was a bit of a relief. I mean, we're 496 00:26:33,281 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: all disappointed that it ended up someone being wounded from outside. 497 00:26:36,921 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean that shouldn't have happened, but you know, to 498 00:26:40,681 --> 00:26:43,001 Speaker 1: put an end of this bike was pretty broading for 499 00:26:43,041 --> 00:26:45,121 Speaker 1: the whole team. I mean it was a big team 500 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: that worked on him and everyone put in, not just me. 501 00:26:48,281 --> 00:26:50,321 Speaker 1: It was a whole team that ended up getting this blake. 502 00:26:51,201 --> 00:26:53,521 Speaker 2: It did effectively end his run because he served a 503 00:26:53,561 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 2: stretch up in Queensland and then he was extraduted down 504 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,801 Speaker 2: to New South Wales to face the home invasion charges. 505 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,401 Speaker 2: So it really led to the end of his run. 506 00:27:01,441 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 2: So I guess you could, in one sense be called 507 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: his nemesis Philip Short. 508 00:27:05,961 --> 00:27:08,041 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that's me. I think there was a 509 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,961 Speaker 1: whole team. There was Bobbings who was leading the team, 510 00:27:11,001 --> 00:27:14,801 Speaker 1: and there was the surveillance guys, all the analysts. I 511 00:27:14,801 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: think the whole team put in an equal amount of effort. 512 00:27:17,921 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: That's right and a good result. As you say, it 513 00:27:20,281 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: was unfortunate that one of your side got wounded. But 514 00:27:23,241 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: kid was in custody and that was the end of him. 515 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,041 Speaker 2: But I guess a lot of people say that Berdie 516 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,801 Speaker 2: Kidd got off pretty lightly in there because he was 517 00:27:31,961 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: involved in let's say four murders. There was a couple 518 00:27:35,281 --> 00:27:38,481 Speaker 2: more back in nineteen ninety two or nineteen ninety one, 519 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: the murders of Roy Thurger and Dessie Lewis. Tell us 520 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 2: a bit about those and why he was suspected of 521 00:27:45,681 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 2: those murders. 522 00:27:47,281 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I suspect the kid's good for both of them. 523 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: We did receive some information about the Thurgar murder, and 524 00:27:53,041 --> 00:27:57,361 Speaker 1: that was Thurgo owned a laundromat and Allison Street, Breenwick, 525 00:27:58,001 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: and he commonly went there of an evening. I think 526 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: his wife may have worked there and Thurgar vegle was 527 00:28:05,721 --> 00:28:08,201 Speaker 1: parked out the front. Now it had a dicky ignition 528 00:28:08,321 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: switch and that you had to jiggle the key to 529 00:28:09,961 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: get it to work, and as he was doing that, 530 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: kid came across the road tapped on the window, Thurgo 531 00:28:16,441 --> 00:28:19,121 Speaker 1: looked up and his shot him. I think he died 532 00:28:19,201 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: the next day or the day after. What was interesting 533 00:28:22,761 --> 00:28:26,241 Speaker 1: is after the murder, Kid went straight to the Quarry Hotel, 534 00:28:26,281 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: which is situated near the Cydney Police Center and now's 535 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: a common drinking spot for police, especially detectives. So he 536 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: started to a being near a group of detectives and 537 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,761 Speaker 1: one of the guys was from the Pole Up squad 538 00:28:39,521 --> 00:28:42,281 Speaker 1: and of course he recognized him, but it was not 539 00:28:42,401 --> 00:28:44,801 Speaker 1: known by anse police. But this guy recognized him, so 540 00:28:44,841 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: he spoke to him and put in an information report. 541 00:28:48,121 --> 00:28:51,881 Speaker 1: So it was pretty clever because if kid was ever 542 00:28:51,881 --> 00:28:54,361 Speaker 1: tapped on the shoulder for it, I think it sounds 543 00:28:54,721 --> 00:28:57,881 Speaker 1: would sound convincing to a jury that hang on, he 544 00:28:58,001 --> 00:29:01,121 Speaker 1: was drinking with police twenty twenty five minutes afterwards. 545 00:29:02,001 --> 00:29:05,041 Speaker 2: Yeah, so had opportunity, I guess, but had an alibi. 546 00:29:05,361 --> 00:29:08,361 Speaker 2: But he also had a motive. The murder of Michael 547 00:29:08,401 --> 00:29:12,641 Speaker 2: Sayers back in nineteen eighty five. Sayers was an associative 548 00:29:12,681 --> 00:29:14,521 Speaker 2: kid that he was part of his team, part of 549 00:29:14,521 --> 00:29:19,001 Speaker 2: his social circle, and Roy Thurger had been boasting around 550 00:29:19,001 --> 00:29:21,601 Speaker 2: Sydney that he killed Michael Sayers, who was a pretty 551 00:29:21,641 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: willing crook in his own right. By the way, do 552 00:29:23,801 --> 00:29:24,761 Speaker 2: you think that was the motive. 553 00:29:25,681 --> 00:29:27,841 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the motive. Big Sayers was a 554 00:29:27,841 --> 00:29:30,801 Speaker 1: good friend of the kids at the end of his life. 555 00:29:30,841 --> 00:29:32,721 Speaker 1: I think Big says, oh, the wrong people a fair 556 00:29:32,761 --> 00:29:36,721 Speaker 1: bit of money. Fergo was on that side of the 557 00:29:36,721 --> 00:29:40,921 Speaker 1: criminal element, and so Sayers wasn't paying back the money. 558 00:29:40,961 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: So Hergar and a number of I think there were 559 00:29:44,241 --> 00:29:46,641 Speaker 1: two others killed Sayers. 560 00:29:46,521 --> 00:29:48,761 Speaker 2: That's right, And the paymaster in that case was probably 561 00:29:48,801 --> 00:29:50,761 Speaker 2: heroin dealer Barry mccannon, I understand. 562 00:29:51,321 --> 00:29:53,361 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was mckainn or one another, 563 00:29:53,441 --> 00:29:54,441 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. 564 00:29:54,601 --> 00:29:56,761 Speaker 2: Or Danny Chubb. There's a whole crew you could have ended. 565 00:29:57,241 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: I think Chubb would be a good one to probably 566 00:29:59,201 --> 00:30:00,641 Speaker 1: look at the. 567 00:30:02,361 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: Right and they all met grizzly ends didn't in this 568 00:30:05,601 --> 00:30:09,801 Speaker 2: period pick your dead villain in this case. And then 569 00:30:09,841 --> 00:30:12,241 Speaker 2: Dassi Lewis. Why was Daisy Lewis killed? 570 00:30:13,121 --> 00:30:18,201 Speaker 1: Well, it could be just pettiness. I mean noteds are varied. 571 00:30:18,521 --> 00:30:21,361 Speaker 1: Kid has one in his book about that. Kid and 572 00:30:21,441 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: Lewis and Jockey Smith were on opposite sides. Lewis on 573 00:30:26,281 --> 00:30:28,481 Speaker 1: one side with Jockie Smith and Kid on the other 574 00:30:29,521 --> 00:30:33,001 Speaker 1: There was also that Kid had an altercation with or 575 00:30:33,041 --> 00:30:37,001 Speaker 1: an argument with Lewis at the Lord Nelson Hotel sometime 576 00:30:37,041 --> 00:30:40,801 Speaker 1: earlier and Lewis asked him to step it outside. Now, 577 00:30:40,841 --> 00:30:43,641 Speaker 1: Lewis was a former boxer and I think he would 578 00:30:43,641 --> 00:30:45,961 Speaker 1: have punish Kid, so Kid to kind of fired him, 579 00:30:45,961 --> 00:30:48,241 Speaker 1: and I think he'd lost a bit of faith. That 580 00:30:48,361 --> 00:30:52,321 Speaker 1: could be one motive. But Kid was certainly involved because 581 00:30:52,361 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: after his arrest we did a number of search warrants 582 00:30:55,001 --> 00:31:00,601 Speaker 1: in Sydney, one at a black Colleric Murray's place, and 583 00:31:00,641 --> 00:31:06,561 Speaker 1: we recovered amount of equipment curling paler class and shotgun 584 00:31:06,601 --> 00:31:10,961 Speaker 1: ammunition and two shotguns. And one of those shotguns was 585 00:31:11,001 --> 00:31:14,161 Speaker 1: a forensic match for the murder weapon of Des Lewis. 586 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,761 Speaker 1: So he certainly was involved. And I think he probably 587 00:31:17,801 --> 00:31:18,401 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. 588 00:31:19,521 --> 00:31:22,281 Speaker 2: So was there never enough to charge him over those murders? 589 00:31:22,321 --> 00:31:25,041 Speaker 1: Do you think? No? He had a pretty good alibi, 590 00:31:25,281 --> 00:31:29,321 Speaker 1: and his alibi was Christine Christiotti. They were allegedly at 591 00:31:29,321 --> 00:31:32,241 Speaker 1: a function in Double Bay and I think they were 592 00:31:32,281 --> 00:31:36,281 Speaker 1: there and others a verified Kid was present. My theory 593 00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:39,361 Speaker 1: is that Kid left the function was driven a short 594 00:31:39,401 --> 00:31:43,401 Speaker 1: distance from Double Bay to Bondi Junction. He waited him 595 00:31:43,721 --> 00:31:46,521 Speaker 1: for Lewis and then ambushed him when he returned home, 596 00:31:47,201 --> 00:31:49,041 Speaker 1: and then Kid just returned to the function. 597 00:31:49,361 --> 00:31:52,841 Speaker 2: And whatever evidence Christine Christiotti could have given went to 598 00:31:52,881 --> 00:31:55,761 Speaker 2: her grave with her as she died of a heroin overdose. Simbali, 599 00:31:55,801 --> 00:31:57,281 Speaker 2: as we said earlier, Yeah. 600 00:31:57,081 --> 00:31:59,881 Speaker 1: That's a shame. It's not not much else to go 601 00:31:59,961 --> 00:32:01,961 Speaker 1: on in that particular murder. 602 00:32:02,881 --> 00:32:06,081 Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course you retire not long after this, 603 00:32:06,761 --> 00:32:07,121 Speaker 2: don't you. 604 00:32:08,041 --> 00:32:11,081 Speaker 1: Yeah. I retire and medically retired in two thousand and 605 00:32:11,081 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: one with some unique injuries. So that was the end 606 00:32:15,521 --> 00:32:19,121 Speaker 1: of my involvement. I left organized crime in ninety eight 607 00:32:19,281 --> 00:32:22,361 Speaker 1: and a few of the other police took over the 608 00:32:22,401 --> 00:32:24,761 Speaker 1: home invasions and finished off the brief. And they did 609 00:32:24,801 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: a great job in putting the home invasions and another 610 00:32:29,281 --> 00:32:30,361 Speaker 1: robbery on the kid. 611 00:32:30,841 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: And you were called as a witness in those cases, 612 00:32:32,721 --> 00:32:33,081 Speaker 2: weren't you. 613 00:32:33,881 --> 00:32:35,681 Speaker 1: Well, I was called as a witness and went in. 614 00:32:35,961 --> 00:32:38,601 Speaker 1: But Kid and the others changed their police to guilty. 615 00:32:38,681 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: It was a pretty solid brief, so I think to 616 00:32:42,241 --> 00:32:45,721 Speaker 1: avoid extra time and give them some help of getting out, 617 00:32:45,801 --> 00:32:48,641 Speaker 1: they pleaded guilty to all matters. 618 00:32:48,561 --> 00:32:50,641 Speaker 2: And this was your chance to at least look at 619 00:32:51,121 --> 00:32:53,361 Speaker 2: kid in the face, wasn't it. 620 00:32:54,161 --> 00:32:57,921 Speaker 1: Yes, I wanted to see how he took it before 621 00:32:58,001 --> 00:33:00,001 Speaker 1: hour involved, But I think he'd only done about six 622 00:33:00,121 --> 00:33:03,601 Speaker 1: years prison, so it hadn't done a lot of serious jail, 623 00:33:04,161 --> 00:33:05,601 Speaker 1: and I knew he was going to get a fairly 624 00:33:05,641 --> 00:33:10,081 Speaker 1: good leg for these offenses. So when the judge eventually 625 00:33:10,201 --> 00:33:13,881 Speaker 1: handed down what was in total a twenty six year 626 00:33:13,881 --> 00:33:17,401 Speaker 1: top sentence and twenty one on the bottom, he showed 627 00:33:17,441 --> 00:33:20,521 Speaker 1: no emotion. It could have been your issue with a 628 00:33:20,561 --> 00:33:23,881 Speaker 1: parking ticket. You can leave nothing at all, no emotion. 629 00:33:24,201 --> 00:33:25,081 Speaker 1: He just copped it. 630 00:33:25,841 --> 00:33:29,161 Speaker 2: Because those old style crooks they used to take jail 631 00:33:29,201 --> 00:33:32,201 Speaker 2: as occupational hazard. But you had to do some jail 632 00:33:32,241 --> 00:33:34,841 Speaker 2: from time to time. But this was a long lagging 633 00:33:35,321 --> 00:33:38,041 Speaker 2: and it was really the end of his criminal career. 634 00:33:38,081 --> 00:33:40,681 Speaker 2: So you could take that as an achievement in your career, 635 00:33:40,761 --> 00:33:41,241 Speaker 2: I suppose. 636 00:33:42,241 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for all of us it was a 637 00:33:43,481 --> 00:33:46,561 Speaker 1: great achievement to see him go away for a long 638 00:33:46,641 --> 00:33:48,761 Speaker 1: time because he was going to continue to commit a 639 00:33:48,841 --> 00:33:50,601 Speaker 1: serious crime. He wasn't going to. 640 00:33:50,521 --> 00:33:54,241 Speaker 2: Stop, and as you say, the mistakes in the Brisbane 641 00:33:54,281 --> 00:33:57,361 Speaker 2: job probably should have told him that it was time 642 00:33:57,401 --> 00:33:59,681 Speaker 2: to give it up. Before this, he. 643 00:33:59,681 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: Would have been embarrassed by I didn't give evidence at 644 00:34:02,441 --> 00:34:06,921 Speaker 1: the committal hearing in Brisbane for thosees, and my evidence 645 00:34:07,041 --> 00:34:09,641 Speaker 1: was in relation to the voice identification of the people 646 00:34:09,641 --> 00:34:12,401 Speaker 1: on telephones. And the look on his face was I 647 00:34:12,441 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: swear if he had those people in adopt ex thing, 648 00:34:15,441 --> 00:34:17,721 Speaker 1: he would have tried to kill them. They're really broad 649 00:34:17,761 --> 00:34:18,601 Speaker 1: him undone. 650 00:34:19,401 --> 00:34:21,681 Speaker 2: Well, so thanks for sharing those memories there, Phil, I 651 00:34:21,681 --> 00:34:24,041 Speaker 2: think it's an amazing thing. I'd like to think there's 652 00:34:24,081 --> 00:34:27,601 Speaker 2: some way that the Keating and Martell families could finally 653 00:34:27,961 --> 00:34:30,161 Speaker 2: get some sort of closure. Are going to be talking 654 00:34:30,161 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: to the Victoria police down here and see if they've 655 00:34:31,961 --> 00:34:34,121 Speaker 2: got any interest in following up these cases and maybe 656 00:34:34,121 --> 00:34:37,001 Speaker 2: even dusting off your old information, even if your informants 657 00:34:37,001 --> 00:34:38,521 Speaker 2: still out there. I'm not quite sure if he would be, 658 00:34:38,561 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 2: but it'd be nice to see these things because I'm 659 00:34:41,441 --> 00:34:43,561 Speaker 2: sure over your career it's one thing to be a 660 00:34:43,641 --> 00:34:46,641 Speaker 2: crook involved in the hurly burly of offending, but the 661 00:34:46,681 --> 00:34:50,041 Speaker 2: families do suffer, and I'm sure that his children, both 662 00:34:50,081 --> 00:34:52,601 Speaker 2: those families, you know, the kids of both those men 663 00:34:53,001 --> 00:34:56,201 Speaker 2: suffered as a result of the unexplained disappearance of their fathers. 664 00:34:57,801 --> 00:35:02,281 Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about it. You know they're involved in 665 00:35:02,361 --> 00:35:07,001 Speaker 1: crime themselves, but just the same they deserve to, you know, 666 00:35:07,041 --> 00:35:10,761 Speaker 1: if their disappearance investigated, Whether it comes to anything or not, 667 00:35:10,841 --> 00:35:12,081 Speaker 1: it deserves to be investigate. 668 00:35:16,161 --> 00:35:19,921 Speaker 2: That's Philip Short, retired in South Wales detective on bringing 669 00:35:20,001 --> 00:35:25,041 Speaker 2: down Bertram Douglas kid. Now there is another volume coming 670 00:35:25,081 --> 00:35:27,361 Speaker 2: out of his trilogy. I think it's going to be 671 00:35:27,401 --> 00:35:29,961 Speaker 2: one book and the same author, Simon Griffin, is putting 672 00:35:29,961 --> 00:35:31,561 Speaker 2: together some much I'm going to afford some of this 673 00:35:31,561 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 2: stuff to Simon and it may up in the story. 674 00:35:33,481 --> 00:35:36,921 Speaker 2: But do you wonder this final version was supposed to 675 00:35:37,001 --> 00:35:41,401 Speaker 2: be kept until after Vert's death, and I wonder how 676 00:35:41,481 --> 00:35:45,201 Speaker 2: much he's going to reveal in this final volume. Will 677 00:35:45,201 --> 00:35:50,121 Speaker 2: he talk about the deaths of Thurger, of Lewis, of Martel, 678 00:35:50,601 --> 00:35:54,001 Speaker 2: of Keating? Does he have a conscience? Finally, that's a 679 00:35:54,041 --> 00:35:56,201 Speaker 2: really good question. If you have any stories for me, 680 00:35:56,241 --> 00:35:59,681 Speaker 2: please get in touch Adam Sander writer at gmail dot com. 681 00:35:59,721 --> 00:36:01,801 Speaker 2: If you've got some information you want to tell the police, 682 00:36:01,841 --> 00:36:04,961 Speaker 2: call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. 683 00:36:05,281 --> 00:36:07,521 Speaker 2: This is Bean Adam shann for real crime. Thank you 684 00:36:07,601 --> 00:36:08,001 Speaker 2: for listening.