WEBVTT - Webb of crime. Part 1 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:03.880 And he panicked. He looked at her and thought, oh, 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.560 couldn't feel a pulse. She's gone, She's dead. And he 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:14.280 actually took her body out to the foreshore in a wheelbarrow, 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.520 had burnt some stuff and essentially buried her at sea. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:23.960 That's his story. I mean, it was completely horrendous. Slashed 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.240 the telephone cord and basically grabbed the baby, ran to 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.480 the carpoard, absolutely terrifying. 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.720 I'm Andrew Rule's Life and Crimes. Today we welcome back 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.080 to the studio at South Bank an old friend of ours, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.600 not that she's old, but she's been a friend for 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.320 a while, and that is Emily Webb, one of the 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:47.280 better crime writers around town and been at it now 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.199 quite a while. I used to think of her as 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.080 sort of a young girl, you know, learning the craft, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.760 but now, of course she's a veteran and I'm, in fact, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:01.600 like Moses, I'm a Methusela. Emily's written yet another book. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.319 This one is called Murder in the Suburbs and it 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.720 seems to me that it covers stories from all around 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:14.080 Australia and perhaps the odd one from overseas. But because 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.560 we're sitting in Melbourne, will probably open Emily with talking 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.720 about something from greater Melbourne, maybe even Frankston, would that 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:24.600 be right? And welcome to Life and Crimes. 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.520 Welcome back, Thank you, because I listen to Life and 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.320 Crimes every week. It is one of my all time 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:31.240 favorite podcasts. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:35.400 I am on it beautiful. Now you've been just telling 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.039 us off, Mike, all the work you've been doing, a 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.039 lot of the work you've been doing is getting this 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.160 book done. There's a lot of stories, isn't it? How many? Oh? 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.399 This is about fifteen eighteen. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.320 And inside some of those are multiple stories. Inside some 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.559 of those long chapters are more than one story. Yeah, 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.240 And we're going to delve into one of those in 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.320 a minute. But the Frankston Vanishing case, what is that 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.040 I'm not familiar with? And I'm really curious. 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.040 Well, I came across it. I'd never heard of it before. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.519 And I know, you know pretty much all the crimes 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.520 that have ever happened. But I always feel really thrilled 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.680 when I find something I don't know about. So this 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.160 happened in nineteen fifty and in Frankston. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:19.480 How old do you think I am? 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.440 I was not born then, No, I know you wouldn't, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.240 but I thought you might have come across it in 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.760 your you know, in your research. 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.919 I have not so delighted to hear about it because 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.120 I'll steal it absolutely. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.000 Hey, we help each other out. So this happened in 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.639 nineteen fifty in Frankston and a woman in her fifties disappeared. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.480 Her name was Caroline Scully. She lived in a house 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.120 that was right in the main guts of Frankston where 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.040 the street. Actually there's a shopping center there now, but 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.880 Frankston was not the Frankston we know back then. 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.360 It was like Bayside Holiday. Yeah. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.720 Yeah, But so she was like a mother and grandmother, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.639 had four adult children. Her husband, Edward Scully, had been 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.920 in the navy for many years. They were both actually 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.240 from the UK and came out to Australia in the 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:17.480 late nineteen tens early nineteen twenties and were married and 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.080 had their family. And Edward had recently left the navy. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.920 He was a cook, he started as a cook and yeah, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:30.760 like Caroline just went missing. And there was a bit 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.000 about the situation though. So Edward and Caroline had been 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.280 living apart. I mean, he was away a lot when 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:38.080 he was in the navy. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.400 But was it a case of in the navy. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.720 Yeah, definitely. I think it was a bit of that. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.600 And they married, but they're not living together. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.920 It was a village village people, well that's. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.040 It, and they were well known around the village and 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.200 Caroline lived in the house that they had purchased. But 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.280 Edward was kind of he was in a relationship with 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.480 someone else, shall I say, a younger woman he'd met 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.240 working as a cook at like a holiday camp at 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.560 I can't remember the name of it. It was an 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.080 old migrant camp, you know, that had then been sold 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.080 to a group who wanted to make it into almost 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.880 like an Australian Butler's you know, like those yeah, like 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.400 Heidi High campers, that kind of thing. And that went 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.839 on for a few years. But then I believe the 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.840 government bought that land back and it's now a defense 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.680 based down on the peninsula somewhere. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.279 Oh that's fine. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:33.760 Yeah, So he had met a younger woman in her thirties, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.440 a waitress called Jean Baker, and look, yeah, he was 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.680 in a relationship. People kind of knew, but there were 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:46.840 some attempts to reconcile. So Edward came back and it's 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.359 like Caroline, like let's sell the house and make a 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.280 fresh start. So that actually sold the house in Frankston. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.720 And yeah, they were going to buy a business and 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.520 maybe move to the country somewhere Bendigo, Ballarat, somewhere like that. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:05.320 But Caroline sort of just disappears. She doesn't turn up 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.960 for work one day. She actually worked for a really 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.280 well known book maker who you might know of called 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:15.159 Lenn Juson. It was a pretty prominent bookie. She was 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.520 like a housekeeper a few days a week for Len 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.560 and his wife Alma, who lived in a very beautiful 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:25.960 home in Frankston that's heritage listed. But she didn't turn 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.159 up to work that when she was expected. And yeah, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.000 like it's believed Edward had rung up Alma juice and 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.080 and said, oh, Caroline won't be in We're packing for 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.279 a trip or something like that, or the house move. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.359 The thing is, no one hears from Caroline. She didn't 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.640 turn up for something she was meant to. And the 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.080 kids are like, well, where's mum, what's going on? The 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.159 kids are adults, some of them have children. One of 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.120 the daughters is expecting a baby very soon. 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.200 So potential Grandma's not about this bomb. 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:04.320 Night and Caroline and her daughters were particularly close and 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.200 spoke a lot. I think the kid A few of 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.240 the kids lived locally. One of the sons was in 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:14.880 the navy as well. And what happened was Edward told 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.520 people a few weeks later that Caroline had left a 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.600 note that she'd gone on the Spirit, which was a 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.040 train that went to Aubrey I think, and then you 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.160 could move to Sydney. He said he came back one 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.479 night and found this note gone on the Spirit. Okay, 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.120 that's strange, and he was just very evasive about what 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.280 had happened, and the kids were like, what's going on, 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:42.520 where's mum. One of the daughters had checked the house 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:47.080 and said, well, mum never travels without this croached blanket, 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.360 which is still there. You know, her possessions were there, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.279 but things like she knew that her mum if she traveled, 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.560 and they had lived in other parts of Australia, so 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.600 it wasn't beyond the realm that maybe she might have 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.200 gone somewhere, but not when she was about to be 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.200 a new grandmar again. So yeah, they almost had to 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.680 press gang their dad actually to go to the police 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.640 and report Caroline missing. And this was almost a month 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.560 after she'd gone. Caroline hadn't collected the money from the 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:21.600 house sale. It just was all a bit weird. So 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.680 the police got involved. The homicide squad got involved pretty quickly. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:30.840 But there was a very big, big search like across 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.960 Frankston obviously foot police talking to witnesses, looking at There 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.320 was some pine groves back then. I don't believe they're 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.360 there now. In Frankston. There was like pine plantations. They're 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.440 probably where the pines are, you know. The housing and 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.960 stuff was you know, just looking for and from what 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.200 I was reading in the newspapers and other things like 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.760 because there was quite a few articles, you know, please 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.960 for have you seen this woman? Went all around Australia. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.800 But they were on the back foot because really the 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.320 last time she'd been seen was at the end of 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:08.600 May in nineteen fifty and police won't alert it till 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.600 sort of early June, a couple of weeks into June. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.480 And yeah, it was a big search Australia wide. 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.360 But so the police took it pretty seriously. 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.360 They certainly did. They dug up the garage at the house. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.320 They they clearly were looking for a body. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.040 Yeah, they were saying, oh, she's missing, but I think 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.360 they believed she was dead. Edward would say, well, she 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.360 could be in the Blue Mountains in Katoomba because we 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.920 lived there once when we were married, or maybe she's 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.760 in Queensland, or maybe she's in Tasmania. Just so evasive. 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:44.000 And meanwhile it was a big media story and papers 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.280 like the Truth, you know, like great, look, I love 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.840 the truth. Issues of the truth. Salacious crime reporting, but 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.760 usually pretty good crime reporting. But he was back with 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.079 the girlfriend, Jean Baker. He had given some of Caroline's 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:02.640 jewelry to Jean, and they'd actually at one point were 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.320 working together at the Black Stump Hotel out in the 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.880 Ara Valley in Nabathon and would sign in as mister 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:15.360 and missus Scully. So it's looking pretty dodgy really, And 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.000 witnesses would say that they knew that the marriage was 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.360 a bit rocky. The lawyer who did the house sale said, well, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.040 they said they were going to have a new start, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.160 but Caroline didn't seem too happy. So there was a 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:34.160 really massive search all over, but nothing, nothing came up. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.360 This just fell off a cliff. What led you back 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.200 to look at it again and bring it up? 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.560 I just found it when I look, I don't really 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.120 have a great plan when I'm writing. I'm not a 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.120 very well planned writer. I just research read you know 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.440 that rabbit holes would go down, and I just noticed it, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.480 and I thought, wow, I don't know about that. This 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.160 is really interesting. I do find missing person's case is 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.880 really fascinating. And I think what drew me in was 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:09.439 as this evolved. I mean, Edward Scully was arrested for 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.800 and charged with the murder of Caroline, and it was 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.760 to be the first case in Victoria for someone to 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:20.040 be charged with homicide without a body. And we know 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.120 that that has happened. 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.400 It's hard to prove, but it can happen. 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.280 And I thought, well, that's interesting, but also the scale 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.520 of the search. They eventually, you know, went and arrested 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.760 him in Queensland. He was living with his girlfriend Jean. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.920 And he ended up up there. 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.160 Yeah, he moved up there. He lived up there with 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.679 Jean for a bit of a fresh start. The thought 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:46.960 is that he kind of forced the house sale under 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.480 the guise of let's make a fresh start Caroline, so 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.440 he could get the cash to make this start with 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.800 sort of hapless gene Baker, who was splashed all over 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.160 the newspapers a bit, but I don't know. It seems 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.160 a bit of a younger woman. But you know, hey, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.560 we've all been silly in love before. Yes, it happened, 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.000 hopefully not to that extent, you know. But he was 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:09.920 arrested in Queensland. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.200 And what was he like? Were the photographs in the truth? 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.600 Yes, so he seemed quite a tall man, dark. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:17.920 Hair, don't trust them, tall blade. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.760 He was younger than Caroline, so he was probably in 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.880 his early fifties. Caroline was about fifty six or fifty seven, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.760 and you know the way papers describe women and the 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.680 clothes they wore. You know, she had like brown hair 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:32.920 that was pulled back in a Gaberdine last scene wearing 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.040 a Gabardine suit. And yeah, in the photo she does 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.200 look a bit older than him. She, you know, had 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.160 a very established life in Frankston. She had that job 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.720 with the bookmaker and his wife doing the cleaning. She 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.760 had friends that she caught up with regularly, and she 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.400 was very close to her kids. But the homicide squad 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.520 back then were like, yeah, she's dead, but where. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.319 Is she any idea of what happened to the family. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.520 Any of those kids, you know, are they out there somewhere. 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.360 I actually got in some contact through ancestry dot com, 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:10.920 very handy with like the wife of the son of 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:12.760 one of the kids. It was a bit convoluted, but 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.240 she does remember, she said, we weren't able to catch up. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.680 The people were sort of scattered around and you know, 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.480 stars did in the line. But I did make some contact. 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.679 But they seem to have very scant knowledge about things, 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.640 and I'll send a book to them. She did mention 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.520 that Auntie bet Bet was one of the children of 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:36.320 Caroline Edward. You know that her husband has always said, yeah, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:41.040 Auntie Bet always thought her mother would never go go away, 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.080 like never leave. It was just weird. Now look a 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.120 bit of a spoiler alert, but look, Caroline's body was 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.400 never found. But Edward did make a confession of sorts. 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.319 I mean that the issue is, though you've only got 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.760 one voice, like Caroline's voice can't be heard. So he 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.640 actually told his son when he was in the watchhouse 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.280 in Brisbane that they had been having an argument in 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.240 the kitchen of the Richie Street, Frankston home that they 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.160 just sold, and Caroline had suddenly fainted and hit her 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.280 head on the stove in the kitchen and he panicked. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.720 He looked at her and thought, oh, couldn't feel a 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.800 Pulse's she's gone. She's dead. And he actually took her 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:28.320 body out to the foreshore in a wheelbarrow, had burnt 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.720 some stuff and essentially buried her at sea. That's his story, 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.040 which probably did bury her at sea. But whether or 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.480 not she fainted, the doctor gave evidence. Caroline's family doctor 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.960 gave evidence that you know, back then, they seem to 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.080 have inquest really quickly. Did you know that that really quickly. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.000 And then there was no bog. 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.080 Yeah, no, it was like weeks after and that. 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.520 Wasn't clogged by legal process and lawyers and scientific stuff. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.599 They just banged it on and they had all the witnesses, 0:13:58.640 --> 0:13:58.920 you know. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:00.240 As a clerical exit. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.880 Yeah, and you can get quite a lot of information 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.320 from that. But the family gp gave evidence. I've never 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.640 known Caroline to have fainted before. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.240 So these sort of crimes are as old as time, 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.280 aren't they. We see versions of them every you know, 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.640 there's been that big money in Queensland and other places 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.600 where usually hasband kill's wife, sometimes the other way around, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:25.520 usually because of a third party. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.840 Yeah, and who knows what the argument was about probably understandably, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.080 Caroline was probably frustrated because he's you know, off with. 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.680 You know or nearly always money and see yeah, and. 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.280 Reading between the lines of all the information, I think 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.280 Caroline was probably reluctant to sell the Frankston home. That 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.320 that is what it sounded like. But look, he ended 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.680 up he pled to lesser charges of I think the 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.400 charge was interfering with the coroner's ability to you know. 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:58.960 So what sort of time did he get? 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.800 He did about three years, not too long, and then 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.400 he ended up actually back up in Queensland married to 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:05.120 Jene Baker. 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.200 This underlines a theory I've got that sentences have not 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.920 got a laxa. They've gone the other way. When you 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.360 go back in time, you think that's amazing. You'd get 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.360 three times that now, Yeah, it is amazing. 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.720 Well, especially with some of the episodes you do where 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.280 I was listening to one about like completely heinous murders 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.160 of young women and the two guys kind of got 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:28.840 out pretty quickly. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.960 Naughty Rosalind. Yeah, that's one of the worst murders anywhere 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.920 in the world ever, shocking torture murder. They were both 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.840 out before they were forty they've gone in nineteen or twenty. 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.440 They are out at the age of thirty nine. Yeah, 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.520 and I should have had the key just never never 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:47.200 to be released. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.280 You'd never be released now, well, shouldn't be. I thought 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.160 you'd find interesting though as well. Is the homicide Squad 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.520 at the time. There's probably some names. You know. There 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.880 was a guy called Frank Bluey. 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.800 Adams, Yes, and so it was famous. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.600 And then when I was, you know, like researching, I 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.000 thought I need to I need to mention this. I'm 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.520 not saying that the homicide Squad did not do their 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.160 investigation properly, but later on some of those guys were 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.760 embroiled in the Big abortion inquiry. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.920 Ordon Matthews, Jack Ford and Jack Matthews, the two Jacks. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.920 So they were like getting you know, oh, kickbacks because 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.200 doctors and that didn't want to be jailed for performing abortion. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.360 There were, yeah, there were abortioners who paid homicide Squad 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:34.480 to possibly refer not only protect them, but bring clients, 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.000 of whom there were plenty, because that's how it went then. 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.040 Now it's something that I've never done much of, but 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.720 you know a bit about it. They're strange cases of 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.160 people snatching babies now there's been the meaning relatively recent times. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.320 There's one involving would you believe one of the big 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.440 Calabrian families, funnily enough, funnily enough by chance. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.800 Yeah, they picked the wrong baby, that's for sure. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.320 Yeah, Barbara, one of the Barbaras of all the people 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.119 in all the world. That's a bart bro baby. But anyway, 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.360 tell us about the baby snatching story and you've got 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:08.400 a long chapter here. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.639 Yeah, there's quite a few cases. And look there was 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.800 in the nineties. There was some really big cases in 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:20.959 the UK that really exposed deficiencies in hospital security. But 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.080 I did one even further back because I read about 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.040 this case years ago and I just farted away. It 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.240 was actually a young woman, a waitress snatched a baby 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.720 from a hospital in Sydney in the nineteen forties because 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.320 she just wanted a baby and she just rocked on 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.040 in and after a dance and took this baby. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.160 A psychological thing that affects. 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.639 Some definitely mostly women. And there is a theme with 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.199 the big UK cases, like Abbie Humphreys was one. I 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.200 mean it was massive. They're women who have experienced usually 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.520 a loss like a child loss or a pregnancy loss. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.879 Then you've got probably mixed in there, some mental ill health, 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.160 a lot of stuff, you know. Or trying to keep 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.960 a relationship is another theme that they fake pregnancies to 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.320 try and keep a relationship. But so there's a few 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.200 of those. I kind of went, I went pretty wild 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.520 with this chapter. I just found it interesting. I even 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.800 touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping only because that was probably 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:20.240 the most famous of. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.560 Of course time, one of the biggest. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.360 Crimes, biggest crimes ever. And you know, there's a lot 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.919 of theories about what happened there, you know, But I 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.760 did find one locally, because you know, I grew up 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:31.520 in the Outer East and I live out that way. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.120 There was one in lily Dale in the nineteen seven 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.800 really nineteen seventy six, remind yeah, and actually just it 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.520 was probably a few months before I was born. I 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.120 am getting along in The. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.640 Truth was after I started work, sadly. 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.479 Doing all that great reporting. Well, what happened was as 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.280 a family they're living in Lilia, which you know, the 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.200 gateway to the Arra Valley, you know, an out of suburb. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.960 The couple have got three children, they've got their new 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.200 two week old baby was born at the probably either 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.399 the William Angus Hospital or I think there was a 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.479 lily Dale Bush Hospital back then. Back then, and you know, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.000 back in the day, you'd have all the baby announcements 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.400 in the paper and it's all I think I had 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.520 one in the Leader when I had my younger daughter. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.960 But you know, just going about the day. It's like 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.359 in the morning, midweek, the mom's got you know, the 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.560 little kids, and she's feeding the baby and there's a 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.920 knock on the door and one of the children goes 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.479 to answer answer it. They're under ten, these kids, and 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:30.840 there's a woman at the door, you know, wanting to 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.680 speak to the mum and saying, oh, my name's Sue, 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.840 I'm here to take the baby, check the baby, and 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.640 she actually entered the home. But it took a really 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:45.399 dark turn here. So this woman threw pepper in the 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.280 woman's face her name was Janine, who has the newborn 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:51.320 baby and the two other kids, and held a button 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.000 knife to her back and forced her into the kitchen 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.280 and basically tied her up with you know the kind 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:01.639 of sticking plasty use for like jeris plasts, that kind 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.320 of stuff. I mean, it was completely horrendous. Slashed the 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:09.080 telephone card and basically grabbed the baby, ran to the carport, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.560 absolutely terrifying. So she'd put the younger children in a bedroom. 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.520 So this mother, I mean, I cannot imagine the terror, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.600 like I having had my own kids, just that absolute terror, 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.760 broke free and ran to the neighbors. The baby's gone, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.760 called the police, called her husband. It's absolutely all systems go, 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.840 and the police are pleading going. This is a young baby. 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.440 The baby is breastfed, it's in danger. So the husband 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.879 obviously spoke for the wife. There's a fair bit of 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.719 press coverage about this. I mean, I think things are 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.000 a bit looser back then. Yeah, with like access to 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.360 families or just a bit more impromptu. It's not as 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:50.639 polished as it was, but still seemed extremely effective, you know. 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.040 And they just pleaded, please bring our baby back. Interestingly, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.359 once police had started doing investigations, they found out from 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.560 talking to the parents of the stolen baby that a 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:06.760 woman had called the house and claimed to know the mum. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.520 He said, oh, my name's Sue, I know the mom 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.280 from you know, the hospital, and the dad's like, well, 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:15.600 we don't know anyone of that name. But it turns 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.479 out the abductress, the woman who abducted the baby had 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:23.200 actually been calling people literally from you know, looking at 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.040 the birth notices just so she's kind of punting, well 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:26.960 organized hunting. 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:29.639 Yeah, so it's a sort of an irrational mad crime, 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.480 and yet she'd gone about it very rationally. 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:32.159 This is the thing. 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.639 It was completely yeah, fairly well planned. 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.400 I feel like it was, you know, a bit rudimentary, 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.080 but she, you know, she threw the pepper in the 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:41.160 face and did all that. 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:42.480 You went prepared. 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.120 She went prepared, and you know, there was a fair 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.200