1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: And he panicked. He looked at her and thought, oh, 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: couldn't feel a pulse. She's gone, She's dead. And he 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: actually took her body out to the foreshore in a wheelbarrow, 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: had burnt some stuff and essentially buried her at sea. 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: That's his story. I mean, it was completely horrendous. Slashed 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: the telephone cord and basically grabbed the baby, ran to 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: the carpoard, absolutely terrifying. 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule's Life and Crimes. Today we welcome back 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: to the studio at South Bank an old friend of ours, 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: not that she's old, but she's been a friend for 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: a while, and that is Emily Webb, one of the 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: better crime writers around town and been at it now 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: quite a while. I used to think of her as 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: sort of a young girl, you know, learning the craft, 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: but now, of course she's a veteran and I'm, in fact, 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: like Moses, I'm a Methusela. Emily's written yet another book. 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: This one is called Murder in the Suburbs and it 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: seems to me that it covers stories from all around 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: Australia and perhaps the odd one from overseas. But because 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: we're sitting in Melbourne, will probably open Emily with talking 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: about something from greater Melbourne, maybe even Frankston, would that 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: be right? And welcome to Life and Crimes. 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back, Thank you, because I listen to Life and 24 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Crimes every week. It is one of my all time 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: favorite podcasts. 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: I am on it beautiful. Now you've been just telling 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: us off, Mike, all the work you've been doing, a 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: lot of the work you've been doing is getting this 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: book done. There's a lot of stories, isn't it? How many? Oh? 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: This is about fifteen eighteen. 31 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: And inside some of those are multiple stories. Inside some 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 2: of those long chapters are more than one story. Yeah, 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: And we're going to delve into one of those in 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: a minute. But the Frankston Vanishing case, what is that 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with? And I'm really curious. 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: Well, I came across it. I'd never heard of it before. 37 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: And I know, you know pretty much all the crimes 38 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: that have ever happened. But I always feel really thrilled 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: when I find something I don't know about. So this 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: happened in nineteen fifty and in Frankston. 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: How old do you think I am? 42 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: I was not born then, No, I know you wouldn't, 43 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: but I thought you might have come across it in 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: your you know, in your research. 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: I have not so delighted to hear about it because 46 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: I'll steal it absolutely. 47 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: Hey, we help each other out. So this happened in 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty in Frankston and a woman in her fifties disappeared. 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: Her name was Caroline Scully. She lived in a house 50 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: that was right in the main guts of Frankston where 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: the street. Actually there's a shopping center there now, but 52 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: Frankston was not the Frankston we know back then. 53 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: It was like Bayside Holiday. Yeah. 54 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, But so she was like a mother and grandmother, 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: had four adult children. Her husband, Edward Scully, had been 56 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: in the navy for many years. They were both actually 57 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: from the UK and came out to Australia in the 58 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: late nineteen tens early nineteen twenties and were married and 59 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: had their family. And Edward had recently left the navy. 60 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: He was a cook, he started as a cook and yeah, 61 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: like Caroline just went missing. And there was a bit 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: about the situation though. So Edward and Caroline had been 63 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: living apart. I mean, he was away a lot when 64 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: he was in the navy. 65 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: But was it a case of in the navy. 66 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I think it was a bit of that. 67 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: And they married, but they're not living together. 68 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: It was a village village people, well that's. 69 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: It, and they were well known around the village and 70 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: Caroline lived in the house that they had purchased. But 71 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: Edward was kind of he was in a relationship with 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: someone else, shall I say, a younger woman he'd met 73 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: working as a cook at like a holiday camp at 74 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of it. It was an 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: old migrant camp, you know, that had then been sold 76 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: to a group who wanted to make it into almost 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: like an Australian Butler's you know, like those yeah, like 78 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Heidi High campers, that kind of thing. And that went 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: on for a few years. But then I believe the 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: government bought that land back and it's now a defense 81 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: based down on the peninsula somewhere. 82 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: Oh that's fine. 83 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So he had met a younger woman in her thirties, 84 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: a waitress called Jean Baker, and look, yeah, he was 85 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: in a relationship. People kind of knew, but there were 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: some attempts to reconcile. So Edward came back and it's 87 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: like Caroline, like let's sell the house and make a 88 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: fresh start. So that actually sold the house in Frankston. 89 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, they were going to buy a business and 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: maybe move to the country somewhere Bendigo, Ballarat, somewhere like that. 91 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: But Caroline sort of just disappears. She doesn't turn up 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: for work one day. She actually worked for a really 93 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: well known book maker who you might know of called 94 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: Lenn Juson. It was a pretty prominent bookie. She was 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: like a housekeeper a few days a week for Len 96 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: and his wife Alma, who lived in a very beautiful 97 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: home in Frankston that's heritage listed. But she didn't turn 98 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: up to work that when she was expected. And yeah, 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: like it's believed Edward had rung up Alma juice and 100 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: and said, oh, Caroline won't be in We're packing for 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: a trip or something like that, or the house move. 102 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: The thing is, no one hears from Caroline. She didn't 103 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: turn up for something she was meant to. And the 104 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: kids are like, well, where's mum, what's going on? The 105 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: kids are adults, some of them have children. One of 106 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: the daughters is expecting a baby very soon. 107 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: So potential Grandma's not about this bomb. 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: Night and Caroline and her daughters were particularly close and 109 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: spoke a lot. I think the kid A few of 110 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: the kids lived locally. One of the sons was in 111 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: the navy as well. And what happened was Edward told 112 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: people a few weeks later that Caroline had left a 113 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: note that she'd gone on the Spirit, which was a 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: train that went to Aubrey I think, and then you 115 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: could move to Sydney. He said he came back one 116 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: night and found this note gone on the Spirit. Okay, 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: that's strange, and he was just very evasive about what 118 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: had happened, and the kids were like, what's going on, 119 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: where's mum. One of the daughters had checked the house 120 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: and said, well, mum never travels without this croached blanket, 121 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: which is still there. You know, her possessions were there, 122 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: but things like she knew that her mum if she traveled, 123 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: and they had lived in other parts of Australia, so 124 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't beyond the realm that maybe she might have 125 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: gone somewhere, but not when she was about to be 126 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: a new grandmar again. So yeah, they almost had to 127 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: press gang their dad actually to go to the police 128 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: and report Caroline missing. And this was almost a month 129 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: after she'd gone. Caroline hadn't collected the money from the 130 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: house sale. It just was all a bit weird. So 131 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: the police got involved. The homicide squad got involved pretty quickly. 132 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: But there was a very big, big search like across 133 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: Frankston obviously foot police talking to witnesses, looking at There 134 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: was some pine groves back then. I don't believe they're 135 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: there now. In Frankston. There was like pine plantations. They're 136 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: probably where the pines are, you know. The housing and 137 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: stuff was you know, just looking for and from what 138 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: I was reading in the newspapers and other things like 139 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: because there was quite a few articles, you know, please 140 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: for have you seen this woman? Went all around Australia. 141 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: But they were on the back foot because really the 142 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: last time she'd been seen was at the end of 143 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: May in nineteen fifty and police won't alert it till 144 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: sort of early June, a couple of weeks into June. 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, it was a big search Australia wide. 146 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: But so the police took it pretty seriously. 147 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: They certainly did. They dug up the garage at the house. 148 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: They they clearly were looking for a body. 149 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were saying, oh, she's missing, but I think 150 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: they believed she was dead. Edward would say, well, she 151 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: could be in the Blue Mountains in Katoomba because we 152 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: lived there once when we were married, or maybe she's 153 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: in Queensland, or maybe she's in Tasmania. Just so evasive. 154 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: And meanwhile it was a big media story and papers 155 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: like the Truth, you know, like great, look, I love 156 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: the truth. Issues of the truth. Salacious crime reporting, but 157 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: usually pretty good crime reporting. But he was back with 158 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: the girlfriend, Jean Baker. He had given some of Caroline's 159 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: jewelry to Jean, and they'd actually at one point were 160 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: working together at the Black Stump Hotel out in the 161 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: Ara Valley in Nabathon and would sign in as mister 162 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: and missus Scully. So it's looking pretty dodgy really, And 163 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: witnesses would say that they knew that the marriage was 164 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: a bit rocky. The lawyer who did the house sale said, well, 165 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: they said they were going to have a new start, 166 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: but Caroline didn't seem too happy. So there was a 167 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: really massive search all over, but nothing, nothing came up. 168 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: This just fell off a cliff. What led you back 169 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: to look at it again and bring it up? 170 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: I just found it when I look, I don't really 171 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: have a great plan when I'm writing. I'm not a 172 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: very well planned writer. I just research read you know 173 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: that rabbit holes would go down, and I just noticed it, 174 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: and I thought, wow, I don't know about that. This 175 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: is really interesting. I do find missing person's case is 176 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: really fascinating. And I think what drew me in was 177 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: as this evolved. I mean, Edward Scully was arrested for 178 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: and charged with the murder of Caroline, and it was 179 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: to be the first case in Victoria for someone to 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: be charged with homicide without a body. And we know 181 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: that that has happened. 182 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: It's hard to prove, but it can happen. 183 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, that's interesting, but also the scale 184 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: of the search. They eventually, you know, went and arrested 185 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: him in Queensland. He was living with his girlfriend Jean. 186 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: And he ended up up there. 187 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he moved up there. He lived up there with 188 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: Jean for a bit of a fresh start. The thought 189 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: is that he kind of forced the house sale under 190 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: the guise of let's make a fresh start Caroline, so 191 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: he could get the cash to make this start with 192 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: sort of hapless gene Baker, who was splashed all over 193 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: the newspapers a bit, but I don't know. It seems 194 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: a bit of a younger woman. But you know, hey, 195 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: we've all been silly in love before. Yes, it happened, 196 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: hopefully not to that extent, you know. But he was 197 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: arrested in Queensland. 198 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: And what was he like? Were the photographs in the truth? 199 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: Yes, so he seemed quite a tall man, dark. 200 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: Hair, don't trust them, tall blade. 201 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: He was younger than Caroline, so he was probably in 202 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: his early fifties. Caroline was about fifty six or fifty seven, 203 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: and you know the way papers describe women and the 204 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: clothes they wore. You know, she had like brown hair 205 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: that was pulled back in a Gaberdine last scene wearing 206 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: a Gabardine suit. And yeah, in the photo she does 207 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: look a bit older than him. She, you know, had 208 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: a very established life in Frankston. She had that job 209 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: with the bookmaker and his wife doing the cleaning. She 210 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: had friends that she caught up with regularly, and she 211 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: was very close to her kids. But the homicide squad 212 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: back then were like, yeah, she's dead, but where. 213 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 2: Is she any idea of what happened to the family. 214 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: Any of those kids, you know, are they out there somewhere. 215 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: I actually got in some contact through ancestry dot com, 216 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: very handy with like the wife of the son of 217 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: one of the kids. It was a bit convoluted, but 218 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: she does remember, she said, we weren't able to catch up. 219 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: The people were sort of scattered around and you know, 220 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: stars did in the line. But I did make some contact. 221 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: But they seem to have very scant knowledge about things, 222 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: and I'll send a book to them. She did mention 223 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: that Auntie bet Bet was one of the children of 224 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: Caroline Edward. You know that her husband has always said, yeah, 225 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: Auntie Bet always thought her mother would never go go away, 226 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: like never leave. It was just weird. Now look a 227 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: bit of a spoiler alert, but look, Caroline's body was 228 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: never found. But Edward did make a confession of sorts. 229 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: I mean that the issue is, though you've only got 230 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: one voice, like Caroline's voice can't be heard. So he 231 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: actually told his son when he was in the watchhouse 232 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: in Brisbane that they had been having an argument in 233 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: the kitchen of the Richie Street, Frankston home that they 234 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: just sold, and Caroline had suddenly fainted and hit her 235 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: head on the stove in the kitchen and he panicked. 236 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: He looked at her and thought, oh, couldn't feel a 237 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: Pulse's she's gone. She's dead. And he actually took her 238 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: body out to the foreshore in a wheelbarrow, had burnt 239 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: some stuff and essentially buried her at sea. That's his story, 240 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: which probably did bury her at sea. But whether or 241 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: not she fainted, the doctor gave evidence. Caroline's family doctor 242 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: gave evidence that you know, back then, they seem to 243 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: have inquest really quickly. Did you know that that really quickly. 244 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: And then there was no bog. 245 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it was like weeks after and that. 246 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: Wasn't clogged by legal process and lawyers and scientific stuff. 247 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: They just banged it on and they had all the witnesses, 248 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: you know. 249 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: As a clerical exit. 250 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can get quite a lot of information 251 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: from that. But the family gp gave evidence. I've never 252 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: known Caroline to have fainted before. 253 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: So these sort of crimes are as old as time, 254 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: aren't they. We see versions of them every you know, 255 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: there's been that big money in Queensland and other places 256 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: where usually hasband kill's wife, sometimes the other way around, 257 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: usually because of a third party. 258 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and who knows what the argument was about probably understandably, 259 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Caroline was probably frustrated because he's you know, off with. 260 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: You know or nearly always money and see yeah, and. 261 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: Reading between the lines of all the information, I think 262 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Caroline was probably reluctant to sell the Frankston home. That 263 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: that is what it sounded like. But look, he ended 264 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: up he pled to lesser charges of I think the 265 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: charge was interfering with the coroner's ability to you know. 266 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: So what sort of time did he get? 267 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: He did about three years, not too long, and then 268 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: he ended up actually back up in Queensland married to 269 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: Jene Baker. 270 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: This underlines a theory I've got that sentences have not 271 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: got a laxa. They've gone the other way. When you 272 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: go back in time, you think that's amazing. You'd get 273 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: three times that now, Yeah, it is amazing. 274 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: Well, especially with some of the episodes you do where 275 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: I was listening to one about like completely heinous murders 276 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: of young women and the two guys kind of got 277 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: out pretty quickly. 278 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: Naughty Rosalind. Yeah, that's one of the worst murders anywhere 279 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: in the world ever, shocking torture murder. They were both 280 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: out before they were forty they've gone in nineteen or twenty. 281 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: They are out at the age of thirty nine. Yeah, 282 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: and I should have had the key just never never 283 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: to be released. 284 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: You'd never be released now, well, shouldn't be. I thought 285 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: you'd find interesting though as well. Is the homicide Squad 286 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: at the time. There's probably some names. You know. There 287 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: was a guy called Frank Bluey. 288 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: Adams, Yes, and so it was famous. 289 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: And then when I was, you know, like researching, I 290 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: thought I need to I need to mention this. I'm 291 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: not saying that the homicide Squad did not do their 292 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: investigation properly, but later on some of those guys were 293 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: embroiled in the Big abortion inquiry. 294 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: Ordon Matthews, Jack Ford and Jack Matthews, the two Jacks. 295 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: So they were like getting you know, oh, kickbacks because 296 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: doctors and that didn't want to be jailed for performing abortion. 297 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: There were, yeah, there were abortioners who paid homicide Squad 298 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: to possibly refer not only protect them, but bring clients, 299 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: of whom there were plenty, because that's how it went then. 300 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: Now it's something that I've never done much of, but 301 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: you know a bit about it. They're strange cases of 302 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: people snatching babies now there's been the meaning relatively recent times. 303 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: There's one involving would you believe one of the big 304 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: Calabrian families, funnily enough, funnily enough by chance. 305 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they picked the wrong baby, that's for sure. 306 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Barbara, one of the Barbaras of all the people 307 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: in all the world. That's a bart bro baby. But anyway, 308 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 2: tell us about the baby snatching story and you've got 309 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 2: a long chapter here. 310 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's quite a few cases. And look there was 311 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: in the nineties. There was some really big cases in 312 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: the UK that really exposed deficiencies in hospital security. But 313 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: I did one even further back because I read about 314 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: this case years ago and I just farted away. It 315 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: was actually a young woman, a waitress snatched a baby 316 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: from a hospital in Sydney in the nineteen forties because 317 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: she just wanted a baby and she just rocked on 318 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: in and after a dance and took this baby. 319 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 2: A psychological thing that affects. 320 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: Some definitely mostly women. And there is a theme with 321 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: the big UK cases, like Abbie Humphreys was one. I 322 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: mean it was massive. They're women who have experienced usually 323 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: a loss like a child loss or a pregnancy loss. 324 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: Then you've got probably mixed in there, some mental ill health, 325 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, you know. Or trying to keep 326 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: a relationship is another theme that they fake pregnancies to 327 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: try and keep a relationship. But so there's a few 328 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: of those. I kind of went, I went pretty wild 329 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: with this chapter. I just found it interesting. I even 330 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping only because that was probably 331 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: the most famous of. 332 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: Of course time, one of the biggest. 333 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: Crimes, biggest crimes ever. And you know, there's a lot 334 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: of theories about what happened there, you know, But I 335 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: did find one locally, because you know, I grew up 336 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: in the Outer East and I live out that way. 337 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: There was one in lily Dale in the nineteen seven 338 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: really nineteen seventy six, remind yeah, and actually just it 339 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: was probably a few months before I was born. I 340 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: am getting along in The. 341 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: Truth was after I started work, sadly. 342 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: Doing all that great reporting. Well, what happened was as 343 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: a family they're living in Lilia, which you know, the 344 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: gateway to the Arra Valley, you know, an out of suburb. 345 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: The couple have got three children, they've got their new 346 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: two week old baby was born at the probably either 347 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: the William Angus Hospital or I think there was a 348 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: lily Dale Bush Hospital back then. Back then, and you know, 349 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: back in the day, you'd have all the baby announcements 350 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: in the paper and it's all I think I had 351 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: one in the Leader when I had my younger daughter. 352 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: But you know, just going about the day. It's like 353 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: in the morning, midweek, the mom's got you know, the 354 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: little kids, and she's feeding the baby and there's a 355 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: knock on the door and one of the children goes 356 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: to answer answer it. They're under ten, these kids, and 357 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: there's a woman at the door, you know, wanting to 358 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: speak to the mum and saying, oh, my name's Sue, 359 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm here to take the baby, check the baby, and 360 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: she actually entered the home. But it took a really 361 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: dark turn here. So this woman threw pepper in the 362 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: woman's face her name was Janine, who has the newborn 363 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: baby and the two other kids, and held a button 364 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: knife to her back and forced her into the kitchen 365 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: and basically tied her up with you know the kind 366 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: of sticking plasty use for like jeris plasts, that kind 367 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: of stuff. I mean, it was completely horrendous. Slashed the 368 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: telephone card and basically grabbed the baby, ran to the carport, 369 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying. So she'd put the younger children in a bedroom. 370 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: So this mother, I mean, I cannot imagine the terror, 371 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: like I having had my own kids, just that absolute terror, 372 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: broke free and ran to the neighbors. The baby's gone, 373 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: called the police, called her husband. It's absolutely all systems go, 374 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: and the police are pleading going. This is a young baby. 375 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: The baby is breastfed, it's in danger. So the husband 376 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: obviously spoke for the wife. There's a fair bit of 377 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 1: press coverage about this. I mean, I think things are 378 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: a bit looser back then. Yeah, with like access to 379 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: families or just a bit more impromptu. It's not as 380 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: polished as it was, but still seemed extremely effective, you know. 381 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: And they just pleaded, please bring our baby back. Interestingly, 382 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: once police had started doing investigations, they found out from 383 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: talking to the parents of the stolen baby that a 384 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: woman had called the house and claimed to know the mum. 385 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: He said, oh, my name's Sue, I know the mom 386 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: from you know, the hospital, and the dad's like, well, 387 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: we don't know anyone of that name. But it turns 388 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: out the abductress, the woman who abducted the baby had 389 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: actually been calling people literally from you know, looking at 390 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: the birth notices just so she's kind of punting, well 391 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: organized hunting. 392 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a sort of an irrational mad crime, 393 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: and yet she'd gone about it very rationally. 394 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: This is the thing. 395 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: It was completely yeah, fairly well planned. 396 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: I feel like it was, you know, a bit rudimentary, 397 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: but she, you know, she threw the pepper in the 398 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: face and did all that. 399 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: You went prepared. 400 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: She went prepared, and you know, there was a fair 401 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: bit of planning going on in like calling and looking. 402 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: And so a few days later, so the baby's missing. 403 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: But a few days later they get a call. Now 404 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't find out exactly who had made that call, 405 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: but I think it's pretty safe to say it was 406 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: the hut of the woman who had taken the baby, 407 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: because this is where it gets a bit weird, weirder 408 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: than horrifying than usual. You've got to maintain a facade 409 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: of being pregnant, right, like if you're suddenly coming home 410 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: with a baby. So it turns out that the woman 411 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: who'd taken the baby was from Tacoma, up in the hills, 412 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: a thirty six year old woman called Elsie Robison. She 413 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: already had six kids, and you know, pretty sure her 414 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: husband was the one who called and said, okay, yeah, 415 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: we've got this baby here. And she told him that 416 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: she had given birth at the angles and then you know, 417 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: been discharged so like within a day. But also the 418 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: baby's two weeks old, and I thought, if you've got 419 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: six kids, surely you can tell a bit if. 420 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 2: It's like had some sense of it. Yeah, look, it 421 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: seems someone who's seen all those new ones. 422 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the real freshies. 423 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: You know. 424 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: It's so good that the family were reunited. But the 425 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: story of why this woman did it is it's really interesting. 426 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: It's believed that she was having a phantom pregnancy. Now 427 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: I had to do a bit of research. It's apparently 428 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: a thing where you know, maybe you really want a 429 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: baby so much, or you think you might be pregnant, 430 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: and you know it's a psychological thing, but you know, 431 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: you have a scan and you can't deny if there's 432 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: not a little fetus in there. You can't you know, 433 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: fake it. But the psychological thing is so strong and 434 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: it can actually mimic symptoms in your body of pregnancy, 435 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: like your period stops or you know, other things. But 436 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: going back to when I said about the baby being 437 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks old, it did go to court 438 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: and the police prosecutor did ask Elsie Robison's husband about 439 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: the fact that the baby his wife presented to him 440 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: at home saying oh, look, we've got a new child, 441 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: was not a new bond and he said, I could 442 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: not tell the difference between a brand spanking new baby 443 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: and one that was two weeks old. And I just noted, 444 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: that's a bit odd considering you've got six kids. I 445 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: don't know, I thought that was a bit strange. But 446 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: she told him she gone into labor at the Anglos 447 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: Hospital that morning and was just discharged the same day. 448 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: Covering up the fact that he hadn't immediately collected. 449 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: And I think it look, it must be a shock, 450 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: Like I mean, honestly, if your your wife is stealing 451 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: a baby, you're pretty unwell. And you know, she thought 452 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: she was pregnant, but then she'd had tubal ligation six 453 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: years before. It's kind of all a bit shady, but 454 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, she really wanted another baby, so I think 455 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: there was a bit of trauma that her husband had said, hey, 456 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: we've got enough kids. Like, let's, you know, sort it out. 457 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: They'd explored fostering and adoption. They actually even had a 458 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: foster baby who'd stayed with them for six months, but 459 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: then they had to return that baby, and so that 460 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: was traumatic. So I sort of see how this. 461 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: Sort of loss of yeah, ligation, yeah, painting the other 462 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: one baby. 463 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: It's all happening. But they, as I said, the detectives 464 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: found out that she had been making phone calls to 465 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: other parents, pretending to have a legitimate reason to visit 466 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: their homes, trying to say, oh, maybe I'm a visit 467 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: nurse nurse. I don't know what they called them back then, mothercraft. 468 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: Nurses or something. 469 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, she didn't get jail timing. Mostly these women need 470 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: intensive psychological help, and well that's. 471 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: The system was actually, I think pretty tolerant of women 472 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: with problems in Fanticide was on the books, and any 473 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: child that was killed by its mother under a certain age, 474 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: under twelve months or something, it was written off as infanticide, 475 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: not murder, and the penalties were much lower. It was 476 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: sort of a recognized thing that sort of a de 477 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 2: facto acknowledgment. 478 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: Of postpartum depression or psychosist. 479 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: Post always always recognized it in a way. 480 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: In some ways, I feel like courts were more woke 481 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: back there, like a bit more understanding or there was 482 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: a probably a ground swell at that time as well 483 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: to have more understanding about mental health. I think from 484 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: the tush days it was. 485 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: But yeah, there was discretion magistration. Judges had discretion, and 486 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: I think they used it. 487 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, she was committed to stand trial. She was 488 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: released on bail. Her husband gave assurance, I'll keep an 489 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: eye on airy. Change the way he worked so he 490 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: could be at home, you know, like probably had to 491 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: travel a bit being in uplay to like go to 492 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: wherever he worked. He rearranged his hours. She pleaded guilty 493 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: to abduction, but not guilty to aggravated burglary. I thought 494 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: the aggravated part of what she did was actually extremely serious, 495 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: like you know, let alone just taking a baby and 496 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: tying I'm in terrifying, absolutely terrifying, And she showed a 497 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: lot of remorse. Four years probation. But the judge did 498 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: say his name is Roland Lackey, and her use of 499 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: forced it against the mother was appalling. You know, it 500 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: caused appalling distress. But you know, then the newspapers followed 501 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 1: up after the court case, and that a photo of 502 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: a like the the woman who'd abducted the baby with 503 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: her youngest child was probably about five or six, sort 504 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: of you know, hugging her and you know, I feel terrible, 505 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, something that just built up. So the journals 506 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: are like interviewing it, going what the hell happened? She 507 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: wanted to personally apologize, but she couldn't face her and 508 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: well that's really all I could find after that. But 509 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: I just found it. I was like, that's just scary. 510 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: It's like one of those chilling suburban crimes, like completely wild. 511 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: But you know, who knows what her mental health was like, 512 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: presumably she got some help. 513 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 2: A lot of crime it's happening to the people next door. 514 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: You know, that's. 515 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: Mushroom murders, I mean exactly. You know, the more I 516 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: think about that, the more I hear and I listened 517 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: in a bit to the pre sentencing stuff, it's actually 518 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: so chilling. Like the more I hear about what happened 519 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: to those poor people and what Aaron Patterson did, I 520 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: find it terrifying. I cannot lie, Like it's so scary. 521 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: She with melos a forethought for months, as long as 522 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: if she sort of got out of bed one morning 523 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: and said, I'm going to do this, got to cook 524 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: a florid episode of she planned it for a long time. 525 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: And the ripple effect, you know, like you think about 526 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: the trauma, the terrifying nature of what happens. Your baby's abducted, 527 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: You're tied up, You're like just in bits for two days, 528 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, listening to and hearing what some of the 529 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: witness statements were in the Aaron Patterson case. You know, 530 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: just the fallout for everyone. You know, the children will 531 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: have to see their mother in jail, Like why, I 532 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: just keep thinking, why would you do that? If you're 533 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: a devoted mother? 534 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: Why? Yes, there's something loose there. Yeah, Emily, member, is 535 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: it fair to say that anyone who wants your new book, 536 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: Murdering the Suburbs can get it from all good bookstores 537 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: and all bad ones as well and online. 538 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: Correct? It is in quite a few bookstores. I know 539 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: it's in the bigger name ones, but you can also 540 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: go into your little indie and request it to be ordered, 541 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: and also your library. You can go and ask your 542 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: library to order it. 543 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: Recommended retail price it's. 544 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: About thirty that sounds yeah, different places looks about thirty Yeah, 545 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: like different places do different they do. 546 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: And thanks for telling us that. One next week you're 547 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 2: going to come back again and talk to us. I 548 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: think about some poisoning cases. 549 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: Certainly am I have a chapter. 550 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 2: In the book Poisoning with a Twist. Yes, thanks for listening. 551 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 552 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 553 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: features and more, go to Heraldsun dot com dot au 554 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: forward slash andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 555 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 556 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcast's soul And if 557 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: you want further information about this episode, links are in 558 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: the description