WEBVTT - Conversations with Cornesy - Steve Vizard 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:05.199 Hi everyone, Welcome once again to conversations. We missed Steve Wisad. 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.840 We miss those Australian television programs, you know, Fast Forward 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.639 Tonight Live with Steve Wisad. It was a great time 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.320 in Australian entertainment. We're missing that. And Steve Wisada is 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:23.239 a man of significant intellect, humor, social consciousness, and he's 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.520 an author. He has a new book out called Nation, Memory, Myth, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.720 Gallipoli and the Australian Imaginary. Steve Wisad, Welcome to the program. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.519 How are you good? Intro corns. I very much like 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.920 that as pretty much as I braided, Very very generous 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:40.199 and great to talk to your mate. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:42.760 Well, we do miss those days. I mean, television is 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:43.880 not the same, is it. 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.160 There was something about live TV. And look, we still 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.080 do have live TV, but there was something about live 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.080 TV when there was no internet, there was no streaming, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.520 so the only thing you had in your house, the 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:57.680 only thing we all had was kind of four or 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.320 five TV stations, and every one, because they were forced 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.600 to it, there was nothing else, watched the same four 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.440 or five shows. And so the power of kind of 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.760 the nation all being bound together watching those shows and 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.679 then talking about the same things the next day. It 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.840 was kind of a unifying thing. And I'd grown up 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.679 watching that. I'd grown up in Melbourne watching Graham Kennedy 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.760 and then the Don Lane Show, and I remembered watching 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.480 those as a kid live TV, seeing Bert Newton and 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.720 don you know Burt dressed up as Demis Rusos and 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.680 the real Demis Rusos came out. And then one time 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.080 when Sammy Davis Junior was in Australia and he had 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.040 a police escort live on TV from his show which 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.440 he was doing into the Channel nine studios and then 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.080 he sang for another hour with Don Lane with the 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.760 studio band, tap dancing and stuff, and they extended the 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.240 show and I thought to myself, I love live TV, 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.440 you know, because it's the same as sport, and it's 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.520 kind of the same as news. They've got something in 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.919 common and that is you don't know what's going to happen. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.600 It could go anywhere, and to me, that's what I 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:03.840 loved about live TV. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:10.480 You went into production after your stint on TV could 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.880 still be done. Is there room in the market for 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:15.560 shows like that these days? 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.880 Well, Sam Payne's got to show at the moment that 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.440 they're trying on Channel ten. I mean, you know, and 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.480 I think I'm a huge Sam paying fan and I 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.000 love Sam, so I'm all for anyone trying it. Of course, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.920 it's funny you should say that, Corsey, because uniquely in Australia, 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.160 if you look at America, they've got tonight shows galore. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.400 If you look at the UK, they've got, you know, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.480 the Graham Norton Show, a whole lot of live shows 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.080 pretty much. Most other places in the world have a 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.880 lot of live tonight shows and the other thing that 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.359 they've still got going in those places. If you look 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.160 at America, they've got Saturday Night Live, which is a 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.600 sketch comedy show basically takes the piece out of what's 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.880 happening that week. And I think we don't have any 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.000 big sketch comedy shows. And I think you know what 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.840 we did on you know, on fast forward and in 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.200 full frontal or beat with stupendous casts. I mean, it 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.680 was great fun and it's great to have a laugh, 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.760 but it sort of served a purpose and that is it. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.640 Sort of it sort of popped the kind of hubris 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.720 and the sort of you know, the pomposity of people 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.280 in power. There's nothing better to level things than people 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.639 having a laugh at them, and I think they kind 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.520 of serve a purpose as well, is making people laugh. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.480 So I really miss those shows, and yeah, they could 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.200 be done. They're being done in America at the moment. 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.280 Look, there's so much to talk about. Obviously, I'm talking 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.600 about your book. I've never had a book with so 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.000 many footnotes in it? Did you read all of those 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:46.920 books and papers that? 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.280 No, I didn't read any of them. Courts yet them 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.200 in the back to make it look like I was smart. 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.880 I sadly I did read them all, and I only 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.120 I didn't set out to write this book. So the 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.240 book's about, you know, about how national myths work. In Australia. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.800 Our national myth is is Gallipoli. So I just wanted 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.840 to understand what is it? What is it about this 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:16.560 story Gallipoli that is about a failed military campaign on 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.960 a peninsula on the other side of the world, where 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:24.040 nothing happened that changed the outcome of that war, where 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.159 it was a failure in every sense, and it was 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.720 done at the behest of the British Empires. It wasn't 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:35.000 even an Australian sort of scheme. Total failure in a 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.040 military sense. So what is it about this failed military 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.880 campaign that makes it stick in the Australian psyche Of 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:43.520 all the things you know, of all the history in 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:47.280 this country, why that thing? And I was fascinated by 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.800 the whole that a national myth has over a nation, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.880 that makes you know, one hundred thousand people at the 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.480 MCG on Anzac Day who are there ready to go, 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.800 and they've got cans of beer in their hand, and 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.919 you've got pies and pasties and hot dogs in the 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.360 other hand, and they're there with their mates and in 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.599 a minute's time you won't shut them up. But for 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:13.160 that purpose, thinking about Anzac and the Anzac spirit in Gallipoli, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.520 they all stand in reverend silence like it's in a 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.279 church and you can hear a pin drop. And that 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.400 happens around the country at tiny little places. People get 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.680 up at the cracker door and at four am and 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.920 they front up to a memorial in Port Douglas, or 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.919 a statue in Carnarvon, or the big ones in Adelaide 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.679 and Melbourne and Sydney where they get forty fifty thousand 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.360 people turning up. What is the power of that particular 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.160 myth and the hold over a nation that causes us 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.359 to do that, and the books about explaining incredible power 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.640 of national myths over a nation and Anzac and the 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.400 Anzac spirit in Australia is ours and why it's got 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.000 such a force over the Australian nation. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.240 See in that discussion there and reading the book, to me, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.240 the word myth had to be redefined. So to me, 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.839 a myth was a fable, something that was imagined, something 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.520 that wasn't wasn't true, Like you know, we've had myths 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.920 like Romulus and Remus and Icarus flying close to the Sunday. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.320 That was a myth to me. But there's elements of elements, 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.920 there's truth in your myth, your definition of myth? Can 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:26.320 you define that for us? 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:31.760 Yeah, So myth in ancient times an explanation of something. 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.159 It was, you know, it was like originally before people 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.400 knew anything about science, it was an explanation of how 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.400 things worked. And then when science, you know, came to 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.920 be more powerful, myth kind of got a pejority of sense. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.920 Oh it's something that's untrue. But you know, the main 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.120 meaning of myth is a story that has almost got 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.800 a sacred explanatory power. That is the traditional meaning of 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.240 a myth. And for a nation, I found myth is 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.120 the myth, the story, kind of the sacred story that 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.080 explains the nation. And that's kind of in every nation's 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.160 got at Korancia when you think about it. You know, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.480 the Americans have got sort of their Civil War and 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.080 Abraham Lincoln and all that sort of stuff, and the 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.520 Brits have got Camelot and all that sort of stuff. 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:24.240 But for Australia, Gallipoli and the Anzac spirit is the 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.840 sacred story. It doesn't even need to be true, although 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.120 it's based on a true event. That's kind of a 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.600 kind of a sacred story, like a religious story that 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.280 explains who we are, what makes us tick. And if 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.680 you want to know anything in a kind of compressed 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.400 way about the Australian people, just look at our founding 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.920 myth Anzac and it's all in there. It's an explanation 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.120 of our values kind of you know that we'll have 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.200 a go that we kind of got that ability to 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.600 laugh even in the face of hardship, madship, that's all 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.880 in there. All the values that we say are a 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.120 Australian are compressed into our national myth, and that's kind 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.720 of what it's there for, to tell us who we are. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.120 Can I quote you? The function of the foundation myth 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.760 of nation is not to convey factual truths, rational explanation, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.360 or an accurate historical chronological record of the antecedents of nation. 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.320 Rather than national foundation myth acts as a compelling, sacred, 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:28.440 and emotional touchstone of beginning, continuity, and belonging to inspire 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.240 and bind the community. Is it true or not? I mean, 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:34.720 I'm trying to debate. 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.040 So here's the thing. When we talk about an event, 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.480 we can talk about it in several ways. We can 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.760 talk about Delipli's history and historians go historians who look 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.800 at just clinically as an event that happened in the past, 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.000 talk about it. Oh, you know, it's factually you know, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.920 we didn't land at the wrong beach, we weren't better fighters, this, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.280 that and the other. So therefore, historically, factually, why do 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.760 we celebrate it? A myth talks about the same thing, 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.120 but talks about it in a different way. It takes 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:09.240 that event, that actual event, and then changes it. It 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:13.440 sort of embellishes it, like you know, it fictionalizes the 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.839 story the truth is important, but not as important as 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.440 the purpose that the story is about to serve, and 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.679 that is to bind to people together. It's to hold 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.680 people together because one of the things about a nation, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.440 it's not just a rational machine. It's not a you know, 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.040 when we think of Australian nation, what holds us together 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:37.280 isn't legislation. I mean, you know, there's been some political 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.400 debates on God Almighty. We're not held together by the 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.880 political debates. You know, we're not held together by regulations 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.040 and stuff. A nation, like a footy club or like 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.800 a family, isn't held together by all our rational thoughts. 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.640 It's held together by feelings. It's held together and the 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:00.520 way we marshal feelings is through ritual and through myths 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.200 and through stories. You think about families, you know, all 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.880 the family stories that relate to your family that no 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.559 one else knows, and the celebrations and birthdays and anniversaries 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.560 and christenings and whatever, they're unique to your family. That's 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.760 what actually holds your family together. And so it is 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.560 with a footy club. You know, you don't read the 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.720 constitution of the footy club to understand the footy club. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.920 You hear their song, you look at their colors, you 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.840 think about the memories of the great players, the time 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.680 you were at the game and you saw this happen, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.120 or if you're on the field, the time that that happened, 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.400 that premiership cup that was raised. That's what makes a 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.360 footy club and a nation is exactly the same. And 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.080 so our national myth, amongst all of the other rituals 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.840 that we have that hold a nation together, our national 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.720 myth of Gallipoli is at the pinnacle of that. Anzac 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.280 is the peak emotional story that holds the nation together. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.520 And people say, oh, don't we dispense with these sort 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.680 of things. You know what, if you say that, you 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.560 might as well dispense with a footy club song with 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.600 their footy club jumpers, with people turning up to the 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:11.400 game and just say well, let's just play a game 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.079 of footy, they'd be missing the point entirely. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.600 Steve wisad as my guest. Folks will take a break 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.720 and we'll delve a bit further into this new book 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.400 of his nation memory myth back shortly, Welcome back, everybody. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.360 Steve Wizard is my guest. We're doing this by a zoo. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.199 Where are we speaking to you from Steve. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.160 I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my front in my front 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.040 lund room, surrounded by books as similar to the books 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.480 you've got. I see you've got books on military things 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.439 and footy, and I've got the same collection behind me 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.640 Melbourne in my sitting room. I'm in town because I've 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.480 got to do a few things today. Normally, Quorncy'd be 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.680 speaking to me from my farm which is up on 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.160 the morning to Peninsula. Beautiful up there, it's got beautiful 0:11:54.240 --> 0:12:00.120 vineyards and just stunning that area of Australia, most there 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:01.840 is of Australia. I love it well. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.240 Like your book is called nation Memory a myth. Can 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.120 you remember when Anzac first touched you? I mean, did 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.720 your father serve? For instance? Incidentally, your father's name. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:20.520 My dad's name is Free Lancelot Pitt viisad That was 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.680 my dad's name. Isn't it a great name? 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:24.040 Well? 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.560 Fund that you should say that Godfrey and Lancelot were 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.360 both of his uncles who both served in the Great War, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.760 since you asked, and that branch of the family, the 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.880 Vaizards Irish, so they all came out. There was there 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.920 was eleven brothers and sisters. They all came out from 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.720 ross Common in the middle of Ireland and they arrived 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.959 in Australia at the end of the you know, the 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.360 nineteenth century. So they said the biggest Irish accents. They 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.240 talked like that. I mean, I remember it was still 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.520 they are talked like that, and then you know they were. 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.520 They were greatest bullshit artists you ever met in your life. 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.280 But they were hard working people. So when the First 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.680 World War came, some of them are quite old, and 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.439 the youngest was only seventeen or eighteen. Well, four or 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.520 five of them volunteered immediately, and so my uncle Terry, 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:20.199 who was who just turned eighteen, Great uncle Terry, he volunteered, 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:25.199 went straight to the front, was served there for four 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.800 or five months, got shot. He got shot in the buttocks. 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:33.080 Actually not funny really, but it is funny. You're going 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.120 a good shot anywhere, but you get a good shot 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.640 the buttocks isn't a bad place. He then got treated 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.120 and he was supposed to be repatriated to Australia, but 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.520 he revolunteered as an ambulance stretcher and he served the 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.920 rest of the war carrying the wounded from the front line. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:55.080 And people think, oh, you're an ambulance stretcher carrier. That's safe. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.439 They don't stop shooting and they don't stop firing the 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.960 cannons just because you're an ambult stretcher carrier. So he 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.360 got through the rest of the war and he came 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.520 back to Australia having seen virtually the full war and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.520 became an Anglican minister because he was so affected by 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.880 what he saw and spent the rest of his life 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:19.400 as an Anglican minister. And another brother, another relative who volunteered, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.840 was a widower. He went over there, got wounded too, 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.240 went to England to recover, and the nurse who was 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.720 treating him kind of they had a bit of a 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.160 bond and he ended up marrying her and staying over there. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.840 So you know, they've all got stories. But the thing 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.120 that you can't we know it, but every family, a 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.480 lot of families would have this is that these are 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.120 just people. They're people like you or me, or our kids, 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.240 or our brothers and sisters kids did just young men 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.120 who were going over there, each with their own story 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.040 that you know, they're not great warriors, they don't even 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.520 know where they're going, and suddenly they land in this war. 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.560 Zone out of nothing, and you know, there they find themselves. 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:05.720 So yeah, the answer is, yeah, I did have I 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.480 did have relatives, but that's not you know, that was 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.680 sort of hovering around the back of our family gor 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.280 And see what actually got me interested was and it 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.000 wasn't sort of like a click on point. It was 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:18.760 just in the back of my head. I went to 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.840 an old boys' school and when I was thirteen, we 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.040 had a this is how old I am. We had 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.000 a mass teacher called Frank Potts and he was this 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.760 really old Wisden mass teacher. But when he came in 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.440 he was a filling teacher by then. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.720 Now no interrupt. He was South Australian, wasn't he? 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.760 It was South Australian. Mister Potts was South Australian. He'd 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.120 gone to had grown up at Adelaide, gone to Adelaide 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.480 Uni and then and then what had happened was when 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.400 he was just eighteen, the First World War had erupted 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.000 and he'd gone over there and it served in the 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.280 First World War and he'd seen action, he'd seen the trenches, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.160 he had lost may you surf the full duration? It 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.600 was a sapper actually, So they were the young you know, 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.440 they were the blokes who went in right into the 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.280 front line, built the trenches, built the tunnels, built the bridges. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.120 You know, it's kind of I reckon the worst of 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.720 all possible jobs, because not only you were on the 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.120 front line, you're underground tunneling and doing that stuff. I 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.520 could not think of a worse job. Frank Potts, this 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.000 bloody mass teacher we had, would stand in front of us, 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.880 literally two meters away and would tell us kids, twelve 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.440 year olds, were our jaws open about going on the 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.320 troop ship over there and that was an adventure for him, 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.400 and then going to England and they trained on the 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.720 Salisbury planes, and he remembered the time that the King 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.200 came and then he would tell us about that, and 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:47.960 then he tell us about the front line, and he 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.480 tell us about you know, the bloody rats, and he 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.880 tell us there wasn't a tree in sight and the 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.640 non stop booming of the cannons and losing his mates 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.880 and stuff. And he gave us this, and he gave 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.440 us this piece of advice. He said, boys, he said, 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.800 if you're ever confronted by mustard gas, and like, yeah, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.159 it was the nineteen sixties in Melbourne, he said, But 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.560 if you're ever confronted by mustard gas, boys, he said, 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.920 urin eate in your hanky and put the hanky over 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.320 your mouth, and he said, that will put it'll neutralize 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.840 the mustard gas. And I literally for year's corns, you 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.760 wandered around with a hanky in my pocket and a 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.320 half full bladder, just on the off chance. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.000 It's so funny. Look, it's really not funny, because. 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.840 Honey, but you know, it sticks and made What was 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.880 important to me is a twelve or thirteen year old boy. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.119 You know, when you're at high school, the big boys 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.480 are in year twelve and they were seventeen or eighteen already. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.920 That's the boys, the big guys on the oval, with 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.000 the same age as mister Potts had been when he 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.480 had gone off to fight that war. And that kind 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.040 of that resonated with me. How could it be? 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:00.080 What? 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.280 Why would they have gone? Where did they go? What 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.320 made them tick? And so this book I've written about, 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.919 you know, Anzac and Myth and Memory is kind of 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.800 about the stories that we tell that would bind people 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.280 to want to do those sort of things, the sacred 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.520 stories that would compel people to join together to do 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:23.560 these sort of things. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.040 Look, I don't want to give too much away, because 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.119 you do want people to buy the book, don't you. 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:33.199 But I'm intrigued how you describe the Unknown Soldier. You 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.159 finished the book with the description of the term of 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.959 the unknown Soldier in Canberra in War Memorial, And I 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.239 don't know whether you admire this guy or whether you 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.000 are critical of him. Can I just read it where 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.760 the Unknown Soldier had been elevated as a transcendent mythic warrior, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.080 as the new Man, as an immortal embodiment of purity 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.600 and chastity, Now he might be revivified as a mere survivor. 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.120 You are you're dissing this guy. 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:03.320 I'm just what I'm saying. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:04.240 I think you are. 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.400 You need to buy the book to sort this out. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.760 What I'm saying is this when those blokes died. I mean, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.600 in a way, the First World War was two things colliding. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:23.639 It was man's humans man's bride, and man's technological ability 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.159 at the time exceeded his ability to control it. And 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.919 all these new devices like long range artillery for the 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.760 first time, mechanical warfare for the first time, replacing horses. 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:39.800 So man's technical ability had overcome his pride and his ability, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.600 and they collided and the world was devastated. But one 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.400 thing that had happened was all those people who had 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.560 died would never know. And so that's they were unknown soldiers. 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.880 My point is that today that unknown soldier, through the 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.760 very same technology that kind of gave rise to the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.800 First World War, that technology through DNA, could now name him. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.840 So I asked a question. I don't actually pose an answer. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.399 I asked us to choose, and I ask it for 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.320 a reason. But that technology could now reveal who he is. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.320 It could reveal him, since he was unknown, as either 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.040 a great hero or as a coward. It could reveal 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:20.920 him as. 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.920 A Why would you introduce that concept that he might 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:24.680 have I mean, he. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:31.320 May have been, because they're men. They're just men. And 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:35.000 so I ask a question, what would you do? Do 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.600 you think we should name these people now that we 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.000 can It's a question. I don't have an answer. I'm 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:44.040 asking the reader to consider this. Now that we can 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.320 name these unknown men, should they be named or not? 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:49.800 You leave him silent? 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.560 No, absolutely name because whether they were heroic or whether 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.600 they you know, they coward in the face of the 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.600 oncoming enemy. I don't think there's any shame that. I mean, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.400 people would say they would be shamed, but unless you've 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.160 been confronted with that. But the fact that they are there, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.320 they're serving, I mean that there's an element of heroism 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:10.600 about that anyway. 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.399 Turning up all that, I don't seek to answer it. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.240 I pose the question, and you've thought about it. It's 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.800 made you think about what you do. Other people would say, 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.680 leave them, leave it, leave that story alone, don't name them. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.000 But the reason I asked that question is because for 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.359 the very reason that I wrote the book is even 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.040 naming them and even saying they were just ordinary guys, 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.280 isn't the story. That doesn't tell a story. It doesn't 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.760 tell the story of why they went, what they saw, 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.040 how they were bound together, what they thought they were 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.520 doing for their nation, and the very fact that they 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.919 died for their nation. I asked that question so people 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.480 will reflect on their life and that body is more 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.480 than just an individual. It's the story of a nation. 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.280 So I asked that. I asked that question for a 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.320 reason to get the people to reflect on you know, 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.280 that person is more than just a piece of DNA. 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.639 It's kind of a mythic story about our Nation. 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.120 Steve Wisa is my guest. The book is called Nation Memory, Myth, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.720 Gallipoli and Australia and Imaginary. It's going to make you 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.680