1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: If I can distract the brain long enough so that 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: it gets some sense of control and get some sense 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of activity, not allowing me to think about anything else, 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: then a remarkable thing happened in the brain. 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: Doctor stan Rotsky, welcome to the podcast. 6 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: It's an absolute pleasure, especially as you are an expert 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: in the body brain connection. And I used to have 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: a company called the Body Brain Performance Institute that then 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: formed it to the Mind Body Brain Performance Institute. Let's 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: talk all things body brain connection. Renny Descartes talked about dualism, 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 2: that mind and body being separate entities, and we kind 13 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: of know nigh that he did that because Galileo was 14 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: persecuted by the Catholic Church for suggesting that the universe 15 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: didn't go around the sun. So I think Descartes very 16 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: quickly produced his dualism paper and said, the mind is 17 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 2: the body are the realm of religion and the body 18 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: is the realm of science. 19 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: Now, Pa, I can't believe that, and I'm assuming an irishman, 20 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: but bring Catholicism in so quickly into the discussion, I 21 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: mean I could have taken a bit on it, and 22 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: I would have made a fortune on that one immediately, 23 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, so well done. Yes I am. 24 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: I am a self declared recovering Catholic from Northern Ireland. 25 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: Try, but I think I think the point on this 26 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: some I sorry, Sam, was that kind of the Catholic 27 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 3: churchs at the time went all right, we'll accept that. 28 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: So from that point on, if you were a scientist 29 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: in the West, you only talked about the body and 30 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: you didn't look like the Brian slash. Mind. 31 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: No, you didn't then, and you still even in medicine 32 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: up until g nineteen fifty sixties, even to today. You know, 33 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: it's a it's still a dubious area in the old 34 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: Cartesian ways of thinking. It's still so latent. With the proof, 35 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: it's quite a spectacular area, really, and I just find 36 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: it fascinating, you know, And it's fascinating from it because 37 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: it's always at the heart of why why do these 38 00:02:53,120 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: things happen? Why does someone who's depressed clinically speaking, under 39 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: a DSM current version can't have a medical association, you know, 40 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: they can't have a disease of any sort and still 41 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: be labeled that way. It's quite fascinating, isn't it. So 42 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: even though they say they've moved on proms here, it's 43 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,559 Speaker 1: still caught up in the psychiatric versus the physical medicine areas, 44 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: and yet there's enough evidence coming through for us to 45 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: know that it's more than just oh, I feel better 46 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: because I'm physically better. Physically better means I'm mentally better, 47 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: or I'm mentally not better because I'm so physically you know, 48 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: there's the only connection that there is. But that's not 49 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: the case. And that's where I'd like to say that 50 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: it's proven, but it's not. It's still a big area 51 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: of research, which is where I find myself these days, 52 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: particularly in the areas of natural nutrients that we can 53 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: enter into the debate. But we can get to that later. 54 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: Let's go high level. So why is there Why would 55 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: there be a Brian body connection, right, particularly if Day 56 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: kind of saying they are kind of separate entities, Why 57 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: would it be what? 58 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: Well? And the answer to that is inflammation. The sole 59 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: process now is all around what is this role of inflammation? 60 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: And the first signs of that would come with in 61 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: the original case, a lot of anecdotal you know, it's 62 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: very interesting this person would have this injury and they 63 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: would be they would have this inflammation of the physical injury, 64 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: but it would be also related to mood and then 65 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: a depressive illness. And they were the first inklings that 66 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: maybe this war, you know, between the fluids of the 67 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: brain and the fluids of the body, because that's that's 68 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: basically that being the Great War hasn't yes, you know, 69 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: the Great Wall of China in there disrespect to the Chinese, 70 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: see how great Wall I know of. It has always 71 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: maintained that there is no exchange in there, but we 72 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: now have come to understand that's not true that and 73 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: that's been shown up by this relationship of the inflammation 74 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: that you know, when the micro gleia which are you know, 75 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: sort of the things that come in and attack this 76 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: sort of damaged cytokinds, which are you know, busily sort 77 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: of having this huge war trying to bring the inflammation 78 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: under control. What we find there is this relationship to 79 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: the brain and two areas of the brain that are 80 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: involved with emotion, which is the fascinating part here, which 81 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: is highly technical and maybe not particularly suitable in this 82 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: sort of environment that we're talking talking in, but you know, 83 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: the singular part of the brain, the emotional part of 84 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: the brain, the amygdala that's beavering away in there. These 85 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: things are interestingly enough, so closely related to the cytokinds, 86 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: you know, the whole world of that's going on in 87 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: here and busily trying to control dammage in the system. 88 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: And that's where all of the research is currently taken. 89 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: We're trying to find ways to actually understand this better. 90 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: And if I can go back a little bit my 91 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: original world as a clinical nero, and I also worked 92 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: as a psychologist with executives or maybe thirty five years, 93 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: that's long enough have a view, but it was very 94 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: interesting in those days and where they would present quite 95 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: depressed or quite anxious, and you would test them as 96 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: you would normally do. The doctors would see them as 97 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: part of their physical evaluations for the insurance companies or whoever, 98 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: just for a corporate health programs. You'd always get the 99 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: senior executives through from this particular practice in Berke Street. 100 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: You're in Melbourne, and you would be presented with people 101 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: who very interestingly would have a number of factors going on, 102 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: but often there was also you've got this sense that 103 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: there had been injury as well, you know, and whether 104 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: that was physical or mental or some combination of the two. 105 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: And that was the environment in which I first started 106 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: thinking about this, and I first started introducing neurological techniques 107 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: into the practice. I started to say, well, we were 108 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: in a position to take blood, so we could do 109 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: some biological things as well as well as saliva, urine 110 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it. What it was more 111 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: interesting was what was happening on the electrical level in 112 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: the brain. Could we get some interesting evidence there on 113 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: we started and we hooked up or I hooked up 114 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: people and watched what was going on in their brain 115 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: as we were talking about things. But more importantly, as 116 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: a way of how can we settle the mental inflammation? 117 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm using that in a sort of a descriptive way, 118 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: and not just a physical way, which we'll get to, 119 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: but in that descriptive mental sort of a way. Couldn't 120 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: we see things that brought someone from being anxious or 121 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: brought someone from being depressed, and that that's really a 122 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: continuum anyway into a more regulated environment. Could we do that? 123 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: And of course that was the I'm sure youed it 124 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: many times in your own world with meditation, yoga, breathe 125 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: or how could we impact those things and that was 126 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: the world in which I first with my patients. I 127 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: first started to think, well, if I actually can create 128 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: a bit of a smoke environment like with bees, you know, 129 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: settle them down, maybe we could have an effect on 130 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: the brain. And just by watching their EEG, which is 131 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: of course around the heart and rate and electro and 132 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: cephilogram and an electro cardiogram and the EG, we watched 133 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: the brain of these executives and it was fascinating the 134 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: first time. And this was one of the revelations which 135 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: led to something that you and I cross paths last 136 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: year at another seminar. One of the revel of that 137 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: was that if I can distract the brain long enough 138 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: so that it gets some sense of control and gets 139 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: some sense of activity, not allowing me to think about 140 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: anything else, then a remarkable thing happened in the brain 141 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: into the electrical system, which was also firing up or 142 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: regulating the whole of the hormonal and other aspects of 143 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: the brain. And that was that simple task of coloring 144 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: in and that was where it started. 145 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: Let me take a step up a little bit just 146 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: for the benefit of our listeners, right, because you talked 147 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: about that essentially the blood brain barrier right, So some 148 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: of our listeners will not be familiar with this. So 149 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: there is this barrier between the brain and the rest 150 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: of the blood work. There is very little stuff that 151 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: actually gets into the brain. And the kind of checkpoints 152 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 2: think of them like a security airport security checkpoint, right, 153 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: and physical yes, physical yeah. And interestingly, because you were 154 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: talking about depression there, and it's really interesting, isn't it 155 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: when you look at physical symptoms. So if I've got 156 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: cardiovascular disease, or if i have diabetes or any of 157 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: those other diseases that we think of, there is a 158 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: very clear biological signature of those things. We can do 159 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 2: blood tests, we can actually do a clear diagnosis, but 160 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: when it comes to mood disorders, there is no actional 161 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: and independent test of these things. And that's why you know, 162 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: the psychiatrists have created the DSM and questionners that are 163 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: reasonably objective, right. 164 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: But what you're. 165 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: Getting at is what is actually happening in the brain 166 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: and two neurons that affects communication between neurons within the 167 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: brain that can then impact on people's moods. And there's 168 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: this big exploration that's going on right now. But I 169 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: think what you're talking about here is this this inflammation 170 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: which we now know can even come from the gut 171 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: and dis biocess gut and these signals actually get through 172 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: across the blood brain barrier trigger off inflammation. So talk 173 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: to our listeners a little bit about that kind of process, 174 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: and are we any closer to having biological traces or 175 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 2: signatures of depression and different types of depression or anxiety 176 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: or those sorts of things. 177 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: Well, I'd like to say we ad close that the 178 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: answer would be known. I mean, the best bio markers. 179 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: We have a serotonin and the SSRIs, the inhibitors that 180 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: most of the drugs focus on, are not focused enough 181 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: that we can go just as we do with bacteria, 182 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: we can go, well, here is an agent which will 183 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: attack that bacteria, and we have a pure We don't 184 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: have an agent that will in fact move the serotonin 185 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: because it got put into the system. The SSRIs, the 186 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: inhibitors that they they're too broad, and so the psychiatrists 187 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: who dish out the medicines, of course go through a 188 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: process of trial and error because they're trying to work 189 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: out which of the which of these drugs might have 190 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: the impact that is required. There is an assumption, of course, 191 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: quite rightly that the brain body barrier is one that 192 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: can in fact be overcome because of this, but we 193 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: have not found it. 194 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: And actually I interviewed on my podcast professor Mark Horowitz, 195 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 2: who was one of the authors on the paper that 196 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: came out last year or the year before firmly debunking 197 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: the serotonin theory of depression. Their theory is that it's 198 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: about chronic stress and inflammation in the brain. 199 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: Right, It's correct, And that's what I when I was 200 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: talking about these things we can do. You know, we're going, well, 201 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: if maybe it's a it's a different type of biomarker, maybe, 202 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: And then in my world, I'm looking at these electrical 203 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: if you like biomarkers, things like heart rate variation. 204 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I really want to talk about, hard 205 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: rate variability. So my listeners will be a little bit 206 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: familiar with that. I did a podcas us a few 207 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: weeks ago. But let's talk about that heart brain connection. 208 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: So what do we now know, what's the current state 209 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: of play in our understanding of the connections between the 210 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: heart and the brain, And then we can get into 211 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: heart rate variability and manipulation and the vegas ur and 212 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: all of that. Sort of stuff. But just give us 213 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: a kind of a high level overview from where you're 214 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: sitting off. What's the current knowledge in this space. 215 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: With the heart connection to the heart muscle, Yeah, and 216 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: obviously heart rate and all of the aspects of the 217 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: automomic nervous system, the para sympathetic nervous system. As you said, 218 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: you talked about these things before. There is a surprisingly 219 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: high level of knowledge in this area and groaning even 220 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: in my own area. If we look at the science 221 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: of that, we're looking at technology which allow us to 222 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: gather that really quickly, you know, with finger rings is 223 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: whatever it might be. But that whole process of the 224 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: heart and the muscle around it, and its connection to 225 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: in fact preoccupying our whole physiology is huge. I don't 226 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: think is there any debate about it. 227 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any really. And is that connection 228 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: all mediated through the vegus nerve or is there other 229 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: forces at play? 230 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: Look, the vegas nerve has become, in my opinion, a 231 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: predominant player in the discussion now. It's certainly one hell 232 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: of a conduit, isn't it in terms of the biggest 233 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: nerve in the brain and the body. And I think 234 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: it's I don't know what the the answer is in 235 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: terms of the other players that may yet pop up, 236 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: but it was certainly a very significant one. Particularly and 237 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: your listeners, if they're familiar with your talks, will know 238 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: that I'm now talking about the para sympathetic nervous system. 239 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: I'm now talking about the system that slows us down, 240 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: that gets us ready to digest and hence the gut connection. 241 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: We have a physical reaction, of course, which is that 242 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: there's now a whole host of products looking at all 243 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: sorts of problems that people have with their gut and 244 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: being able to regulate the vagual nerve as part of 245 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: that process, which is the stimulating of the parasympathetic system 246 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: so that the system becomes more regulated, which is linked 247 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: of course to stress. 248 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: It's the jump in for the benefit of the lesters 249 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 2: who may have not caught the podcast on high veriability 250 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: or who just need to get up to. 251 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: Me a little bit. 252 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: So autonomic nervous system has got two parts to it. 253 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: We've been talking about the parasympathetic the just to recover 254 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: the opposing one if you like, although it's not really 255 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: opposing as well, but there is the sympathetic nervous system, 256 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 2: which is to do the whole fight or flight response 257 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: and just getting you ready to deal with challenges and 258 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff. And the critical thing is for 259 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: those two sides of the seesaw, if you like to 260 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: be in balance and a lot of issues. Now, are 261 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: people being in sympathetic dominance just too stimulated from a 262 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: combination of work stress, home stress and then thinking they're 263 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: relaxing but being on social media and being stimulated being TV, 264 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: being stimulated not actually recovering. So I make the distinction 265 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: with people between recovery and relaxation. So relaxation recovery. The 266 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: difference is relax can sitting with your feet up with 267 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: a bottle of wine watching Netflix. But that's not recovery, 268 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 2: is it. That's not what Definitely no, recovery is the 269 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 2: biggest nerves. So with that kind of background, and. 270 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: You can't be overstimulated by them. The powers of effect well, well, 271 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: the simple you can't be over stacase because it's reacting 272 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: to it, you know, whatever is going on, but it 273 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: can go on for too long. 274 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the thing for people to understand 275 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: as well is that the stressor that activates it can 276 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: be physical or psychological, and can be real or imaginary. 277 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, Hence the brain's visual callty. It's visualization can 278 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: be as strong as the real world. And why in 279 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: competitive sports visualization such a powerful technique, and right down 280 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: into clinical work where clinical visualization can help with mental disorder. 281 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: They're all very powerful. You know. The brain, as you 282 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: and I know, puts together a picture of the world. 283 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: It's a very hard concept, sort of really really understand. 284 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: You see it and you think that's it, that's it's there, 285 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: but what it sees is quite an interesting again interesting analysis. 286 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: But for the sake of the exercise here, you're quite right. 287 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: It will simulate, it will also relax. It is forever 288 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: in this and you know, like you talked about earlier, Paul, 289 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: it's a war. It's like sleep and you know us 290 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: sleep and awake. It's a war. And that war is 291 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: determined by light and done. Yes, yeah, that is totally 292 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: determined by light and dark. It is so ancient in us. 293 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: And the war goes on. It's like that one of 294 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: those cartoons where you know, the combatants meet every day 295 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: and fight it out and then go back somewhere else. 296 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: The brain operates in exactly the same way. And it 297 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: operates in this in this world, and the central nervous 298 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: system in its autonomic nervous system in this perasympathetic and 299 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: sympathetic world where it is seeking to regulate it, just 300 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: as it does with our temperature, How on earth does 301 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: it keep ourselves in that temperature. It's the self regulation process. 302 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: This homeostasis that you're referring to. There are so many 303 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: homostatic mechanisms and really from that perspective in our discussion, 304 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: we could potentially think of mood disorders as disregulated homeostasis. 305 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: In the indeed, particularly if we accept the brain body connit. 306 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 2: So let's not talk about what we can do about 307 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: it and what people can do about it. And I 308 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: think for the first part of this is understanding the 309 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: very strong projections or connections with the vegus nerve into 310 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: both the heart and the lungs. That gives us a 311 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: little bit of a clue as to what we could 312 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: potentially do and that bottom up stimulation of the vegus nerve. 313 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: Because I saw you last year and using a bio 314 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 2: feedback device and topic feedback, so tell our listeners what 315 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: is the state of play around that buyo feedback. How 316 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: does it work, the breathing all of those sorts of 317 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: things and that activation of the vehgus Nerve. 318 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, Look, I think taking a higher level to it, 319 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: and something I always like to explain is the brain 320 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 1: operates in totality in a very interesting way. When we 321 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: open our eyes and we get going, it's from the 322 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: bottom of the brain to the top. It's from the 323 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: back of the brain to the front, and it's from 324 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: the right side of the brain to the lift. That's 325 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: its firing up directions. And if you think about everything 326 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, and you think about the bottom 327 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: of the brain, now that's the brain stem area. That's 328 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: our ancient brain, that's our old brain that's still there within, 329 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: and it's all linked to our emotions. It's linked to 330 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: areas like the amygdala. You know, when sensory information comes in. 331 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: There are two pathways, as you know, one of those 332 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: is the emotional pathway and the other is the cognitive. 333 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: The emotional one goes first, and it started at the 334 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: bottom of the brain. As soon as something started to 335 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: become sensed, even imagined or real in it goes and 336 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: then it quickly shuffles at ways through what must have 337 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: been our ancient defense mechanism to avoid being killed or 338 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: kill something before we did. It's still there, you know. 339 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: It's just that this other system adds the logic of well, 340 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: we don't just walk around killing people when it suits us, 341 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: or decide to take things when we want it, or 342 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: wonder maybe sometimes with our current world whether that's actually 343 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: working anymore, But for the majority of us it is. 344 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: And this bottom to top, this is going through these 345 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: emotional controllers and this interaction that's going on between the 346 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: body and the brain. You know, it's actually all about 347 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: this relaxation cit you know, should I Should I be tent? 348 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: Should I be relaxed about this? What's the memory of this? 349 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: Where can I find the memory of this? I'll go 350 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: to the hippocampus and I'll grab short term, you know, 351 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: I'll go to the frontal lobe and ask for some 352 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: more directions and go back into there and decide. Note, 353 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: we're all clear, let's move on. This is all going on, 354 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, in a second type of stuff. But my 355 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: point there being that these techniques that we often focus 356 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: on in here and certain I did when I wrote 357 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: my first book on the neuroscience of mindfulness. I very 358 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: much focused on all of the sensory inputs as a 359 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: way of improving things, you know, a way of actually 360 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: ranging from you know that what I mentioned before, the 361 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: coloring in sort of process to sounds, you know, using 362 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: all sorts of sounds to get the sort of brain waves. 363 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: Because the other thing that when the brain is communicating 364 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: from back to front, from right to left, from bottom 365 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: to top, it's doing so on brain waves. You know, 366 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: if the neurons are sure, what speed are they going at? 367 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 2: I think it's important here to double click on this 368 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 2: just for our listeners who may not be familiar with BRIANWD. 369 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 2: So talk us through just briefly alpha, beta, theta, delta, 370 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: and maybe even gamma if you want, but the ones 371 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: that are relevant for us. 372 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: Yes, so you and I are talking right now. We're 373 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: basically and beta. That's so, that's about you know, twelve 374 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: the wave is operating at twelve hertz, and when we're 375 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: at gamma it's at forty plus hurts. And when we're 376 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: going to sleep, we sort of move through alpha and 377 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: lots of people have heard of the alpha waves that's 378 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: about eight to twelve hurts. And then theta, of course 379 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: is deeper and delta is quite hypnotic, So they're to 380 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: me the brain's highways, if you think of gamma, would 381 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: be the autobar get on that baby and USh. If 382 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: the brain wanted to move something quickly, it would look 383 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: for it will look for that brain wave level and 384 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: it will have the sort of adrenaline field hormone zach 385 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 1: the touched to remember, each neuron carries a carry all 386 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: of these messengers along. It's going to carry the stuff 387 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: that we need to really quickly. 388 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: Because I remember reading that when you have an aha moment, yes, 389 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: that is gumma activity. And it's basically the Brian making 390 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: lots of very fast connections. 391 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: Correct, you just go a breat and it's making them. 392 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: And if you stop for a second and say, oh, 393 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: did we just go through a forty kilometer zone and 394 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: we're doing two hundred and ten, it may stop for 395 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: a moment, it may sort of pick that up as 396 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: part of what it's going. But it's it's just heating 397 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: around normally in the frontal lobe area, in the sort 398 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: of the controller area right across the spaghetti bolonnaise on top. 399 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: It's sort of rushing around at the highest level in 400 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: the brain, and that's why it's easiest for us to 401 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: pick that up on the eg's particular, and even some 402 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: of the well even some of the newer technologies in 403 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: the you know, with the ejects, you know, the ncephulogramt. 404 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,239 Speaker 1: But the point is that that's why we pick up 405 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: most of it on the top of the brain, and 406 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: most of the stuff that's deeper in is harder for 407 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: the technolo well though the technologies are getting better. But 408 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: my point is that in this sort of body mind 409 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: connection process, we've got this electrical world going on as well. 410 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: That it's also this mechanism by which it's why would 411 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: we have it, because something's got to send the messages around. 412 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: But how in and as we now know thirty years 413 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: forty years since I first sort of looked at that 414 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: really closely, we now know that, you know, things aren't 415 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: just located in one part of the brain. They're now 416 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: located in multiple areas of the brain. We now know 417 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: the concept of cohesion, which comes up in a lot 418 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: in part rate variation. You know, in this world of 419 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: homeostasis or regulatory endeavor in the brain. It's actually working 420 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: like a team. There's players every week, it's got more 421 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: confusing as we've gone on pull. I mean, the older 422 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: I get, the more confusing. 423 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: It's giddy, but at a fundamental level standard I think 424 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: if we talk about every day issues and particularly mental 425 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: health and stress, yes, is that you know we're probably 426 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 2: in luish beta right now, which is arisal, we're interested, 427 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: we're having a conversation. When we get more stressed, we 428 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: get in higher beta, and then you know, very I beta. 429 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 4: That's spring, which is dropping cortisol like crazy into the system, 430 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 4: which is bringing in the biomarkers, you know, all of 431 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 4: the proteins that. 432 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: Are now infecting the blood vessels, you know, literally turning. 433 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: You know, here's the here's the crups of the mind body. 434 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: This was the big discovery, wasn't it. Those proteins that 435 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: built up just because we thought we were under pressure. 436 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: How did a protein develop? How did that get into 437 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: the brain's cellular structures, in its pathways in there? How 438 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: could that have developed just because we felt stressed. 439 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: When you said protein, you're talking tile proteins and correct. 440 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: So I think for. 441 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: People to understand that with that chronic stress in the brim, 442 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: we see an accumulation of these tile proteins and then 443 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: we see this amyloid beta and this was the whole 444 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: thing about Alzheimer's disease, right, is they find a lot 445 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: of these tangled plaques and they thought, well, we just 446 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: need to develop drugs to get rid of that stuff, 447 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: and then we'll be able to reverse neurodegenerate diseases. And 448 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: it's been spectacularly on successful, yes, because they haven't focused 449 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 2: on the process. They focused on the outcome, right. 450 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: Correct, It is absolutely, absolutely correct, and so but to 451 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: just home in on the critical point was those discoveries 452 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: that was when the brain body connection was finally shown. 453 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: There had to be this world in which certainly micro 454 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: biodynamics were going on in here to create this physical 455 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: response in the brain. And one of the leads that 456 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: we have is particularly around at the moment, you know, 457 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: the one of the big ones is inflammation and mood. 458 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: And you're literally at the heart of all of this. 459 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: You know, we're literally at the Okay, I can understand 460 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: I need to you know, I'm in a flat and 461 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: depress mood that you know, that may be because I 462 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: have issues or social issues or physical issues or certain 463 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: things going on with me, but it may also be 464 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: other things. It may in fact be in the biology 465 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: of my system. So it is a fascinating area. And 466 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: also understanding the electrical component of it, understanding that we 467 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: need to change. I like the metaphor of highways, you know, 468 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: sort of it's dropping off the highway into thirty or 469 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: sixty kilometers, you know, sixty kilometer zone from an autobar. 470 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: You know, how do I change in there? Well, Meditation 471 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: breathing HRV is all about breathing. It's all about being 472 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 1: able to control the sympathetic and parasympathetic. When you breathe in, 473 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: you've got your sympathetic system going. That's the connection to 474 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: the heart muscle and the oxygen supply and all the 475 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: rest of that's going on there. And when you breathe out, 476 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: you're activating the parasympathetic system if you breathe out. You know. 477 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: One of the things that was amazing to me, and 478 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: just before, you know, very early in my career, I 479 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: met Ainsley Mears and he is a big home psychiatrist, 480 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: wonderful man, way back in the eighties, and he was 481 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: all about meditation and about being able to relax. But 482 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: in those days it was more Tibetan, you know, it 483 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: was another world's medicine, but now being able to see 484 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: that you can actually the greater variation. And again, if 485 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: I can actually create greater variation, that is not have 486 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: an absolutely synchronized beat, I can actually create that variation, 487 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: I will relax parasympathetic mind system will in fact engage 488 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: more of the relaxing ormones. Then that is an absolute 489 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: and I can use all sorts of systems to do it. 490 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: I can use breathing, I can use sound. We've developed 491 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: up sound technologies that can do these things. We're looking now. 492 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm working with a project those in New Zealand and 493 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: their chief neuroscientists stated there at the moment, and we're 494 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: looking at nutrients you know too, that the flavor aids 495 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: that can actually break this barrier so that we can 496 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: actually activate the brain to be less depressed. And one 497 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: of the outcomes of that research, which will be interesting 498 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: for you and the listeners, is that we're also getting 499 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: interesting results with concussion, interesting very interesting results with concussion 500 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: and so implication ricked. 501 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: Especially if you get another hit while your brain is 502 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 2: still inflamed, that's when most of the damage. Hence, now 503 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: with concussion protocols, it's you need to take. 504 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: A couple of weeks off and you do. Yes, you 505 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: absolutely have to risk to maximize recovery, which is that's 506 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: another session, absolutely, But I wanted to click and get 507 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: really practical for people. 508 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: So I think we both agree that some of the 509 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: most impactful and astounding research for individuals is the understanding 510 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: that we can manipulate the activity of the vega snarf. 511 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: We can, And so let's talk about what's all about 512 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 2: the breath, meditation, and sign They're the three things that 513 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: I'm really keen because I think there are things that 514 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 2: that people can just jump and go with. I was 515 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: very happy to hear you talk about the breath out right, 516 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: because there is quite a lot of research out that 517 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 2: any type of slow controlled breathing is going to help 518 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 2: with the stress response and going to help with the 519 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: activation of the vegus nerve. But I have always thought, 520 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 2: why would you? And even if we take resonant frequency breathing, 521 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: which you and I both though you need a specific 522 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 2: measuring device to be able to know exactly what yours is. 523 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: But for most people, about six breaths a minute, it's 524 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: going to be quite effective, right sure, And I've read 525 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 2: research that five seconds in and five seconds out can 526 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: actually clear amyloid be But I'm thinking, why would you 527 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: do that? Why would you not breathe in for four 528 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: and out for six or three and out for seven, Because, 529 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 2: as you rightly said, it's not breathing. The sympathetic nervous 530 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 2: system slightly or regulates, So it's on the breath out 531 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: that we get the big operation of the parasit Am 532 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 2: I missing something that they're No, you're not. 533 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: And look, I've given up trying to rationalize all of 534 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: the breathing techniques that come up cross my desk or 535 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 1: my patients in the past, or my research. At the moment, 536 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: the reality of it is, there is no I don't 537 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: get the connection to the research or the information or 538 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 1: the data that tells me those things are any more 539 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: than a place ebo. But I do know through the 540 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: recept from my own recept. I mean, when I was 541 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: at that seminar last year and I put someone up 542 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: there on the stage and I hooked them up, and 543 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: you can see immediately the impact of breathing out. You 544 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: can immediately see the reaction of the autonomic nervous system. 545 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: It's power and sympathetic system seeking to regulate. And once 546 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: you get your hit around the fact that the breath 547 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: out represents the parasympathetic system. You're creating a variation. There's 548 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: no point being in there with equal amounts because all 549 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: you're doing it's keeping the system in what it's caught in. 550 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: That is the simplest technique to do that. 551 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 2: I'm glad that you reinforced that because I was just 552 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 2: I've been scratching my head about why anybody would talk 553 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 2: about anything other than a longer breath out than breath in. Now, 554 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 2: in terms of bio feedback devices, yes, I've got a 555 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 2: heart mass was it hot massage? 556 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: Yes? 557 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 2: And so is that the one that you would recommend 558 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 2: for people in terms of that bio feedback? The Vice 559 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: because it's really quite powerful. 560 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: Isn't it. It's an extremely good program. I've worked with 561 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: it since the late nineties. Wow. So, And in fact, 562 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: the one I demonstrated is one of the original ones 563 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: that I worked on with them. And so because it's 564 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: it actually demonstrates everything I'm talking about. You can't see 565 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: what I showed there in now because they've wrapped it 566 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: up in all of their IP and all the rest 567 00:38:58,600 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: of it. 568 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 2: You just get the practitioner bets underneath the hood, right, Yeah. 569 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: I get it all so because that's the you know, 570 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: that was I had that I held onto that for 571 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: all these years, and that just allows me to actually 572 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: break the system up, to actually see that sympathetic and 573 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: the parasympathetic system in action. And also it's regulatory effort 574 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, you can be high, but 575 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: what's behind that is how hard you're working. You know, 576 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: you may in fact just be situational high, or you 577 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: may be you know high because your system just maintains 578 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: you there. Yeah. Yeah, and that's a very different reaction. 579 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 5: So when I just to clarify, when you're saying, hi, 580 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 5: do you mean in terms of heart met variability or 581 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 5: something else? 582 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in terms of the activation of the 583 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: sympathetic system. 584 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 5: Sympathetic, right, So you can either be because you are 585 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 5: stressed in and of the moment. 586 00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 2: That's just your kind of rest. 587 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: Get because otherwise the data isn't well how do I know? 588 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: You know? So that was a very important other element 589 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: that we had built into the software in the nineties. 590 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: And in fact, you know, the software was built for practitioners. 591 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: In those days, that's right now, you know. 592 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: It was built for practitioners to use with their clients 593 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: and their patients. So and then they moved to a 594 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: model or something that everyone could understand or get that. 595 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: But having said that, it's still very good. It's good feedback. 596 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: It's good feedback, particularly in this sort of the CG 597 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 1: world of the autonomic nervous system. I think it's just 598 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: brilliant and a great way to see yourself improving. We've 599 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: even developed up now. I mean your listeners can't see, 600 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: but I'm holding up my phone. I've even developed up 601 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: my own system now where you can put your finger 602 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:03,919 Speaker 1: over the camera and chair. Yeah, I've built my own 603 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,240 Speaker 1: I've got cross over in Princeton and I've been working 604 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: on that. It's mainly he's just been checking my algorithms 605 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it. But I'm in a 606 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: position now where not only will I be able to 607 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: pick up your HRV, but I'll also be able to 608 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: immediately recommend give either, you know, sort of particularly, I 609 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: mean I like sound intrusions into changing the brain waves, 610 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: so we can immediately do that. That's where the science 611 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: is going with this, and I'm into that actually when 612 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: I was talking and I'm now there. 613 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where my questions are going is on 614 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 2: the sign. But just to kind of summarize this for 615 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 2: people long slow breathing, but the breath are particularly being 616 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: longer than the breath and is a really effective way 617 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 2: be at the power sympathetic nervous system and a relaxation response. 618 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 2: And I talk to all my executives that ideally every 619 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 2: half an hour, but worst case scenario, every r get 620 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 2: off your arson, move, get blood flow and oxygen back 621 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,879 Speaker 2: to your brain. I drink some water and sit down 622 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 2: and do a couple of minutes of that heart rate 623 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: HRV breathing with a long breath out and it's like 624 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,479 Speaker 2: taking your brain out and plugging it into the wall 625 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 2: to get a recharge. Absolutely time stress hormones, right, No. 626 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: I totally agree. I'd recommend twice a day at least. 627 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: You know where you get a note and you just 628 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: literally take yourself offline for a couple of minutes and 629 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: go through just three breaths. I mean you don't have 630 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: to do it for half now, you just have to 631 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: break the cycle you're in. Yeah. 632 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Now, just before just a quick answering this one, 633 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 2: because I do want to talk about signed and we're 634 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,919 Speaker 2: running out of time a bit. Do you think that 635 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 2: there are benefits of mindfulness meditation over and above brass control, 636 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 2: and if so, what would they be. 637 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: Look my answer to that would be yes, and the 638 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: reason for that would be that I think that mindfulness, 639 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: with its propensity to think in terms of the here 640 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: and now and the exclusion of everything else around you 641 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: and the non judgmental processes, shifts you into the you know, 642 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: into many different scenarios in which you can apply it. 643 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: I think the breathing tends, you know, I've tended to 644 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: like it the mindfulness sort of story because it's sort 645 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: of a little it seems a little broader than just breathing, 646 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: and people tend to think that breathing is just a 647 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: sitting down thing and therefore part of some meditative process. 648 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: Whereas mindfulness, as you know, if we're coloring or knitting, 649 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: or washing the car or gardening, if we can just 650 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: be in the moment, non judgmental, only thinking about what 651 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: we're doing, these sorts of things that we no longer do, 652 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a great broader concept for 653 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: me anyway. 654 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 2: For me, a lot of this is about attentional control 655 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 2: and just the power of that single focused attention. I mean, 656 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 2: what one little thing that I love to do just 657 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 2: to take a little bit of a break if I'm working, 658 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,919 Speaker 2: is I'll just get a Deac cards out and play 659 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 2: patients or Solitaire because you're completely mind it's a completely 660 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 2: mindful activity and it can I think anything that where 661 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 2: you are completely focused but also uses your hands and 662 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 2: that drawing ideas. 663 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: And if I had you hooked up all, if I 664 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: had you hooked up, I would show you how you 665 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 1: breathing came into being longer on the out and that 666 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: your HRV changed without you thinking about. 667 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,439 Speaker 2: Ah nice, Okay, so it's a little that's what happened there, 668 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 2: we go. 669 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 1: See. So now for another person, that may not be 670 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: the case. You know, we've experimented with a lot of 671 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: different sort of people. As long as they stop thinking 672 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: about the future and the past, they start thinking about 673 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: just what they're doing, not that you know, not being 674 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: judgmental about what they're doing. Then suddenly their brain shifts 675 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:47,760 Speaker 1: into this relaxation note it shifts into alpha waves. Yeah, okay, 676 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: it jumps from any speedy highway we've been on down 677 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: into alpha. 678 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,240 Speaker 2: Way, which is ultimately what we're after, right. 679 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: Because it's the wave which is going to be the 680 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: neuronal activity that's going to carry the relaxation of hormones. 681 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,399 Speaker 1: And there are many of them. 682 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 2: As you pointed out earlier on, we are into this 683 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 2: area of psycho neeural immunology, right it is. There's a 684 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 2: city going on, there's messenger molecules happening, there's hormones being 685 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 2: There is just this biological orchestra. 686 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,919 Speaker 1: That's how absolutely yeah, no, and it's and it's all 687 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 1: over the brain. You know, it was really easy twenty 688 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: or thirty years ago. Well it was that side of 689 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 1: the brain or that you know, we could say. But 690 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: it's just got so the more we did, the bitter 691 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: the technology do we get to look in there, the 692 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: more complex it gets. It is unbelievably complex in there. 693 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: But it's also incredibly straightforward in parts too. 694 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of the takeouts for people are correct, Yeah, correct, yeah, prect. 695 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: We just don't know always the why. And because you 696 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: don't know the why, sometimes that leads to a whole 697 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 1: different understanding as you go along. I would love to 698 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: still be here in fifty years time and see what 699 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: we know then. Yeah, particularly as we apply AARI, it's 700 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: going to expand the knowledge in these areas unbelievably. 701 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 2: So so will it will Let's not talk about signed 702 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 2: and it's act of signed on the brain. I am 703 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 2: years ago at a little play with biurnal beats and 704 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 2: then just kind of forgot all about it. So told 705 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 2: us about biurnal beats and is there is there anything 706 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 2: else in terms of the signed and the benefits that 707 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 2: it can actually have on our shifting our states. 708 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,359 Speaker 1: Well, we all understand sound and in the sense that 709 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: there's a reason there's a march beat for people going 710 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:03,959 Speaker 1: into battle. 711 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 2: There's a let so you're talking, you're singing my song. 712 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: Isn't it there? It is? You know, and so why 713 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: would that do that? And on the other side of it, 714 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: you know, there is music which is just so emotional. 715 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: There is music that is relaxing to a point. You know, 716 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,839 Speaker 1: we have bursts of it. But the music itself is 717 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: driven usually by environmental factors. We associate a lot of 718 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: it with environmental Some of it does over all increase 719 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: or create a beat. Now, the idea of biournal beats 720 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: and monos and synchronistic ones, they're all around. The idea is, 721 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: of course that if the brain waves are operating at 722 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,959 Speaker 1: different levels. If there is a beat that are social 723 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: siates itself with a alpha way, a relaxing way, versus 724 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: a beat that associates itself with say a faster beta 725 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: gamma way, could I trick the brain? And I say 726 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: trick the brain because you're talking now about bringing in 727 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,840 Speaker 1: a sound beat to effect an electrical impulse going on 728 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 1: in the brain. And the answer to that is, and 729 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,720 Speaker 1: it was discovered many many years ago. We're talking ancient 730 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: history really in something it's been around for so long, 731 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: but we do understand the signs of it now is 732 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,720 Speaker 1: that you know, if I put four hundred and fifty 733 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: herts in one ear and I put four hundred and 734 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: forty herts in the other, the brain actually recognizes that 735 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: there's a difference in sound level of ten, and interestingly enough, 736 00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: it converts that into shifting in waves with neurons that 737 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: are active at the time into the same bit, you know, 738 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 1: the beat to the brain waves. So you move into 739 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: an alpha way. And that's been shown. So if you 740 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,719 Speaker 1: can bring sound in which is just audible, you can 741 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: actually if I'm trying to meditate, but I'm hopeless at 742 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,880 Speaker 1: you know, I just can't. How many of your clients. 743 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 1: You know, the executives you've made have gone, Oh, I 744 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: I try and do this meditation stuff, you know, and 745 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,439 Speaker 1: I and in practice, I've had people I would say that, look, 746 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,359 Speaker 1: you're so stressed, you're on these drugs. You know you're 747 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,560 Speaker 1: going to die. You know you've got to do this, 748 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: And they come back a month later. Yeah, I got 749 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: it to try for a while, but I'm not doing it. 750 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I just lost interest. Yeah, but I'm saying, 751 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: but you're going to die. You know. You've also not 752 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: taken your medication. You know. Oh, I don't know. They 753 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 1: just missed the whole. You know, You've just got to 754 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: find other avenues in a world of pills. Can you 755 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,440 Speaker 1: just give me a pill? And you know I can 756 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: just take it every day. I can't remember to do 757 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,839 Speaker 1: that either. I'll have to get my wife to tell 758 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: me every day to take my cancer drugs. I don't die. 759 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: But putting that aside, in the behavioral psychology part of 760 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: the world, here is something where you know, if I 761 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: actually just pop this on while I'm walking or I'm 762 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: sitting there listening to something else, I'm about to go 763 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,839 Speaker 1: to bed. If I can actually shift my brain waves 764 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: into the place where I'm now going to relax. I'm 765 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 1: now going to stimulate the parts of the brain that 766 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,360 Speaker 1: will relax me. Why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't 767 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: you do that? And I've developed up my own ones 768 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,280 Speaker 1: there about over ten years and I've got three for stress, 769 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: three for sleep, and two for stimulation. So in other words, 770 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:01,160 Speaker 1: change mood up, relax and special one for sleep as well. 771 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: And what I'm linking all of that too, is because 772 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: guess what HRV also is indicative? You know when hr V, 773 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: when variation is high and we're relaxed, guess what happens 774 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: with the brain? You know where the brain waves are. 775 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,920 Speaker 1: You know they're in alpha. Well, isn't that interesting? So 776 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: now if I can actually stimulate that brain wave, can 777 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: I work the other way? 778 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,760 Speaker 2: That was by question? So can we manipulate the brain 779 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 2: waves with signed too? Then emparctype variability correct, and we can. 780 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 2: So it's a part under top dime process. 781 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 1: Correct. 782 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 2: That's cool. 783 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 1: It is very cool because apart from obviously that our 784 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:55,680 Speaker 1: big visual cortex world, sound is our other one. You know, 785 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,800 Speaker 1: it is a it is a major player all across 786 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 1: the brain. And so you know, depending on the activity. 787 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: So you're trying to fall asleep or you want to 788 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: go to sleep, and you're trying to gear down, but 789 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,720 Speaker 1: you've just got so much going on in your head. 790 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:16,479 Speaker 1: You can actually encourage the brain to look for the 791 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: brain pathways which are slower and stimulate that, and they 792 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: will stimulate those so that the parasympathetic system will be 793 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,360 Speaker 1: operated and it will start to produce the aumonents for 794 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: relaxation and eventually sleep of course, so it's a very 795 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 1: dynamic system, but sound certainly works that. 796 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 2: That is very cool indeed, because I know and I 797 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 2: often talk when I'm doing worship, so you can use 798 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,920 Speaker 2: the breath to dine rage eliot or upbreak eliot, and 799 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 2: with doing a septic cyclical controlled hypervantiliation will reach adrenaline 800 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,960 Speaker 2: and up regulate you fruit so you don't have to 801 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 2: erek coffee in the afternoon. But that's pretty cool that 802 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 2: we can use signed to booth din regulate and not regulate. 803 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 2: People will get that instinctively, right from a bit of relaxing. 804 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 5: Classical music versus thrash metals are very different, but that. 805 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:19,360 Speaker 1: Comes with emotional controls, so in broad sense that's good. 806 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,399 Speaker 1: You know, listening to the rain Peter Potter on the roof, 807 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: but eventually it bothers you or you don't listen to it, 808 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: or you don't hear it, or so when you're actually 809 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,440 Speaker 1: think in terms of vaguel tone and you think of 810 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,239 Speaker 1: the tones that are created in certain beats, there is 811 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,640 Speaker 1: across over this and you only have to just hear it. 812 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 1: Your brain will actually adjust the brain waves as long 813 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: as it can just barely hear it. Fascinating, isn't it. 814 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,240 Speaker 1: And so you're in a world now where you're able 815 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,719 Speaker 1: to go, well, I can quickly measure myself and it 816 00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: will tell me straight away which of those sounds to you, 817 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,080 Speaker 1: and not only tell me, but we'll deliver it to me. Right. 818 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 2: So you're talking about measuring yourself through heart red variability 819 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,359 Speaker 2: with a fingerpul soul or something on your wrist. So 820 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 2: I'll tell your heart red variability, and now you can 821 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 2: go right based on that heart red variability. Here is 822 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 2: the soundtrack that you need to listen to to get 823 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:21,840 Speaker 2: your brain. 824 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 1: To get yourself in nervous system and to get yourself 825 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 1: regulating correctly. 826 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,960 Speaker 2: That's very cool. Shit, Yeah, that is. 827 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's exactly where I am now. So and 828 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: you won't have to think about it. It'll tell you 829 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,400 Speaker 1: very great. I need to listen to this for ten minutes, 830 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:41,840 Speaker 1: twenty minutes or thirty minutes. 831 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 5: And is that not publicly available or are you just 832 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,319 Speaker 5: finessing it for well? 833 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:53,439 Speaker 1: The sounds are available now at colotation dot com. Yeah, 834 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: how a patient, but soon it will be available with 835 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 1: the HIV as well. And I use that all the time, 836 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:09,400 Speaker 1: so whether I'm working with rugby clubs or football clubs, 837 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,719 Speaker 1: or at hot spars all sorts of places, or in 838 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:20,920 Speaker 1: management team things where the big area of course pre menopausal, 839 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,440 Speaker 1: very mini pausal and menopausal women as well, huge issues 840 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: of hormonal regulation. Again, you know, the ability to use 841 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: not just the breathing, but be able to use that 842 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:36,080 Speaker 1: with sound. 843 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, And is that an hard of the fact if 844 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 5: there's breathing with because you're telling you're actually ensuring the 845 00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,840 Speaker 5: maximum number of brain waves involved in the maximum number 846 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,799 Speaker 5: of brain regions that are involved in relaxing. 847 00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: You are activated. Okay. Yeah. The brain just looks for 848 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,160 Speaker 1: the highways. It just follow, you know, and if they're 849 00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 1: not there, it doesn't follow, it won't go there. 850 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 2: Doctor stan Rodski, this has been freaking awesome where can 851 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,320 Speaker 2: people go to find out more about you and to 852 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 2: get any information or tools that they can use to. 853 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 1: Hack their biology. Yeah, no, go to colotation dot com. 854 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 2: So spell that out for us. 855 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,840 Speaker 1: Is that co O l O U T A t 856 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:40,240 Speaker 1: io in dot com? The books are there, that sounds 857 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,120 Speaker 1: are there, that I've written about the science there as well, 858 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: so and they're welcome. And that's where they'll find in 859 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,040 Speaker 1: the future, the new technology, the HLV technology connect that 860 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: they'll be able to get the whole lot awesome. 861 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 2: Neither of us are likely to be around in fifty 862 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 2: years to see where to crec AI, But I think 863 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,240 Speaker 2: it's a pretty exciting space that you are on the 864 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,200 Speaker 2: bleeding edge of. So just keep moving along. 865 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 1: Keep Poto. Thanks for a chance to talk that awesome