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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer.

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Speaker 1: Workplace culture and governance is never far from the headline,

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Speaker 1: but a series of extremely high profile incidents at ASX

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Speaker 1: listed companies have seen the issue hit the headlines in

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Speaker 1: recent months. From minus to tech companies and media groups

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Speaker 1: and banks, workplace culture and the behavior of some senior

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Speaker 1: management is again regrettably in need of repair. Perhaps the

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Speaker 1: most high profile allegations have been about the private life

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Speaker 1: of Wise Tech Global founder and CEO Richard White. It

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Speaker 1: saw him step down from the role. So does Australian

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Speaker 1: business have a culture problem? How to modern companies make

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Speaker 1: their workplaces safe and productive? Elizabeth Broderick AO is a

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Speaker 1: former Australian six Discrimination Commissioner. She's now the founder and

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Speaker 1: principal of Elizabeth Broderick and Co, working with companies and

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Speaker 1: organizations to transform workplace culture. Liz, Welcome to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Sean. Wonderful to be with you today.

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Speaker 1: Why are we still having this conversation, Liz? I think

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Speaker 1: the first time I met you, we had this conversation

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Speaker 1: that was probably fifteen years ago. Why are we still

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Speaker 1: having it? Yes?

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Speaker 2: It's a bit depressing that we are still having the conversation,

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Speaker 2: but I think it has become more and more urgent Sean.

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Speaker 2: The reason I say that is that the authorizing environment

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Speaker 2: has changed. So fifteen years ago, when you and I

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Speaker 2: were having this conversation, there was less interest. The community

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Speaker 2: was less interested in these issues. But I think increasingly

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Speaker 2: we've seen the community shift, probably also because of a

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Speaker 2: me too movement black Lives Matter, but also more stringent

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Speaker 2: legislation here in Australia, which means there's an obligation on

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Speaker 2: employers to actually prevent and I think that's one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons that that's brought the issue of culture into focus.

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Speaker 1: Is it all about the top? I mean the Wise

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Speaker 1: Tech example I gave that is about the CEO. Nine

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Speaker 1: media doesn't seem to be about the CEO. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of more some senior managers. Without going into the specifics

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Speaker 1: of any particular case. How important is the behavior of boards, CEOs, CFO,

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Speaker 1: CIO is the c suite?

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Speaker 2: It's absolutely critical the behavior of leaders. And the reason

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Speaker 2: I say that is that the tone is set at

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Speaker 2: the top. So if you've got a board who either

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Speaker 2: is behaving in problematic ways or really doesn't care. It's

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Speaker 2: unlikely you're going to see a shift in the culture

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Speaker 2: below that. So leaders have an outsized impact. And it's

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Speaker 2: so interesting, Sean, because when I go into organizations, I'll

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Speaker 2: speak to often the board, CEO and EXCO and I'll

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Speaker 2: be told, well, you know, we think we've got some issues.

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Speaker 2: But instead of thinking those people over there have got issues,

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Speaker 2: I always say, the starting point is, let's reflect on

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Speaker 2: our own behavior as leaders. Are we proud about the

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Speaker 2: organization that we're leading? You know what part have we

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Speaker 2: played in what's good about the culture, but also some

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Speaker 2: of the harmful and problematic behaviors that might be being observed.

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Speaker 2: So I can't stress enough that cultural and healthy culture

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Speaker 2: starts at the top of the organization.

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Speaker 1: Do you think some boards don't realize that it sounds

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Speaker 1: fairly self evident what you said, But when you ask

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Speaker 1: that question, do some of them think, oh, actually I

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Speaker 1: should have been thinking more about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's exactly right, because some of them

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Speaker 2: think it's an HR issue. So those people over there

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Speaker 2: in HR need to get this sorted. No, actually, this

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Speaker 2: is everyone in the organization's issue. But as a leader,

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Speaker 2: you have an outsized impact. So it's more important that

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Speaker 2: you reflect on your own part, that you know that

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Speaker 2: you're playing in what's good, but also some of the

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Speaker 2: problems in the culture. That's absolutely the starting point. And

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Speaker 2: I have to say, Sean, some of the most profound

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Speaker 2: moments that I've seen in organizations is when particular of

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Speaker 2: those leaders who maybe wouldn't have previously seen their behavior

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Speaker 2: as problematic, once they hear the impact that their behavior

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Speaker 2: is having on others, they have the maturity to actually

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Speaker 2: stare into that truth and do something about it. Because

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Speaker 2: when one of those leaders shifts, the whole organization shifts,

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Speaker 2: and that that's a really positive thing to see.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what about the idea. You see this happen over

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Speaker 1: the years, and the board is obviously balancing the idea

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Speaker 1: of shareholder return versus behavior of a senior manager. And well,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit unfair to talk about wistik again, but

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Speaker 1: Richard White is still going to be paid a million

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Speaker 1: dollars and still going to be a consultant to whys

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Speaker 1: Tech Global. Leaving that specific example, I suppose, but is

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Speaker 1: the board doing enough? I mean, I get confused that

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Speaker 1: someone's behavior is poor and the board kind of thinks, eh,

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Speaker 1: we better keep them around for a while, and you

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Speaker 1: see the share price think, and the person stays around

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Speaker 1: and the price goes up. How do boards manage that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean my view is that everyone should be

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Speaker 2: given an opportunity to change and shift. But if they

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Speaker 2: can't or won't, and you're serious about having a healthy culture,

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Speaker 2: one which is psychologically safe, then I don't think there's

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Speaker 2: an option to keep people who are not particularly senior leaders,

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Speaker 2: who are not acting in a way that's congruent with

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Speaker 2: that culture. So because in a way, Shaun, cultures like

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Speaker 2: the operating system in your organ in your computer. If

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Speaker 2: the operating system's not working, none of your applications are working.

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Speaker 2: And similarly, if your culture is not healthy, it's not

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Speaker 2: inclusive and safe, then nothing the organization does will actually

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Speaker 2: be at optimum level. So even it's decarbonization agenda, the

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Speaker 2: acquisition agenda, all those things will be impacted by an

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Speaker 2: unhealthy culture. So I think also boards fail to realize

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Speaker 2: that one leader can have an outsized, contagion negative impact

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Speaker 2: as well. Some of the most interesting and uplifting moments

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Speaker 2: I've seen in my work is when an individual who

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Speaker 2: we would call it protected species because they're either so

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Speaker 2: they're responsible for so much capability or profit or income

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Speaker 2: or whatever it is. When they are moved on because

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Speaker 2: of their problematic behavior, the whole organization lifts because for

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Speaker 2: the first time there's been a line drawn in the sand.

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Speaker 1: Stay with me, Liz will be back in a minute.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking to former Australian Discrimination Commissioner Elizabeth Broderick, the

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Speaker 1: founder and principle of Elizabeth Brodrick and Co. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about ASX listed companies here. What about so that's the

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Speaker 1: private sector? What about the public sector? What about the arts?

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Speaker 1: What about sport? What about education? You've done work in

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Speaker 1: all those areas. I think is it the same deal there?

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Speaker 2: Well, we see similar kind of harmful behaviors across all

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Speaker 2: the organizations. You're right, We've looked from command and control, sport,

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Speaker 2: private sector, government and everywhere in between, the arts and

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Speaker 2: creative sector. I mean, what I can tell you is

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Speaker 2: that most of these harmful behaviors grow in the same soil,

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Speaker 2: and that soil is a permissive culture. You know, things

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Speaker 2: which are in some cases criminal behavior today, if they're

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Speaker 2: normalized and embedded into the culture, then these harmful behaviors

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Speaker 2: you know will continue. So yes, there are there are

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Speaker 2: structural barriers which are different in different organizations. So you

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Speaker 2: take a mining and resources company, for example, highly male dominated,

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Speaker 2: similar to the military or police, and we've see very

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Speaker 2: few women in that organization, and we know they are

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Speaker 2: high risk environments for particularly sexual harassment, for some of

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Speaker 2: the other harmful behaviors because they are so male dominated,

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Speaker 2: they're very overtly hierarchical. Power, you know, travels in a

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Speaker 2: particular way, particularly also where there's remote locations. So you

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Speaker 2: know there are elements which will make some organizations more

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Speaker 2: risky than others. But I have to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's probably no organization that I've looked at in any

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Speaker 2: event that doesn't have these issues in relation to their culture.

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Speaker 2: There's no organization that couldn't be better than it is.

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Speaker 1: What about the rise of Donald Trump and the anti

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Speaker 1: wokeism push at the moment, how much does that hurt

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Speaker 1: things or it doesn't make that much difference.

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Speaker 2: Look, we need to see, but there's no question that

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Speaker 2: there's been a pushback on particularly the rights of women

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Speaker 2: and girls of gender quality, but also LGBTQ people as well,

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Speaker 2: and this whole narrative around you know, woke and anti woke. Now,

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Speaker 2: I never use those words mainly because the agenda that

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Speaker 2: I'm on, which is an agenda. Yes, it is about

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Speaker 2: creating more diverse and inclusive organizations, but that goes that

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Speaker 2: goes to the safety of your organization. The work that

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Speaker 2: we're doing around culture actually is to ensure that everyone

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Speaker 2: who has a right to be safe at work, and

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Speaker 2: that's every one of us, that's your basic human right.

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Speaker 2: That we have a right to be free from psychosocial

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Speaker 2: risk as well. So it's interesting when you look at

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Speaker 2: sexual arrassment. For example, if we treated physical safety in

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Speaker 2: the way that we treat sexual harassment, we wouldn't ever

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Speaker 2: discuss physical safety. We wouldn't ever report on near misses,

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't ever learn from it, and we definitely wouldn't

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Speaker 2: report it out because we'd be worried about the reputational risk.

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Speaker 2: That's what happened in sexual harassment at the minute. So

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Speaker 2: we know in physical safety, if I take a safety

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Speaker 2: incident to my manager, I'm celebrated for bringing early risk

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Speaker 2: to the organization. But if I go to say that

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Speaker 2: my boss is asking me personal questions about my sex life,

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Speaker 2: not only am I not celebrated, but I'm seemed to

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Speaker 2: be a troublemaker. I can't take the heat. So it's

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Speaker 2: a totally different thing. So what I help people see

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Speaker 2: is that this agenda around diversity inclusion is about safety,

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Speaker 2: it's about better performance, and it's about increased capability decision making, innovation.

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Speaker 2: There's so many reports that suggest that. So I totally

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Speaker 2: reject the woke characterization.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but what about the Donald Trump? The fact that

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Speaker 1: the leader of the free world is an individual who

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't put safety at the heart of some of

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Speaker 1: his decision making.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Probably, But I'm trying to hold it shown you

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Speaker 2: can see I'm trying here. I'm trying to hold it

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Speaker 2: like a bold experiment to learn from what's happening in

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Speaker 2: the US and to really see, Okay, well, what will

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Speaker 2: be the impact of that back here in Australia. And

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Speaker 2: in a sense, you know, what happened in the US

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Speaker 2: around the election was feedback. If I can look at

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Speaker 2: it in that neutral term, you know, depending on where

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Speaker 2: you sit in the system, you will have a different

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Speaker 2: lift experience. And the trouble is, you know, if some

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Speaker 2: experiences are invalidated or indeed some voices are silenced, then

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Speaker 2: you get potentially what we got in the US election.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to kind of reflect on is, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: that's feedback that we've got. We need to engage with

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Speaker 2: those who are just not engaged in this gender either

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Speaker 2: not engaged in it or just think it's rubbish. We

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Speaker 2: need to engage with them, but in a way that

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Speaker 2: we can meet them where they're at. And it's not

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Speaker 2: someone who looks like your mother preaching to you about

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Speaker 2: gender qualities, probably not coming you out of the line.

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Speaker 2: I think it's you know, much more new inced and sophisticated,

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Speaker 2: and in relation to men because in many organizations I

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Speaker 2: work in, there's a big backlash and often it comes

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Speaker 2: from men, not only men. Sometimes it comes from women.

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Speaker 2: But the idea is to find safe places for men

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Speaker 2: to be able to talk about the issues for them,

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Speaker 2: particularly mental health, but with other men because all of

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Speaker 2: those issues are part of visagenda as well. So I

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Speaker 2: think we need to get much more creative about it.

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Speaker 2: And maybe the US gives us opportunity to test different

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Speaker 2: strategies there and.

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Speaker 1: So it's probably not a solution, right, but is it

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Speaker 1: a way to push it forward is about creating spaces,

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Speaker 1: creating conversations, creating awareness. Is that kind of how we're

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Speaker 1: going to push it forward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're pushing it forward on a number

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Speaker 2: of fronts. One is leaders So leadership, we need to

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Speaker 2: invest in leadership development because I mean, I'd love just

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Speaker 2: to legislate for human decency, but sadly we can't do that.

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Speaker 2: So we need leaders understand that, you know, changing culture

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Speaker 2: or developing a healthy culture is probably some of the

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Speaker 2: most difficult work that they will do because you're going

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Speaker 2: to the heart of human interaction. It's what we call

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Speaker 2: an adaptive challenge. That means there is no technical fix.

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Speaker 2: We need to just keep testing and trialing and experimenting.

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Speaker 2: So I think you'd be investing in leadership, but you'd

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Speaker 2: also be putting in place strong preventative mechanisms. And that's

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Speaker 2: about education. It's about helping people understand how do I

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Speaker 2: build psychological safety Because we're you know, we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: human beings. We're going to make mistakes. These behaviors, bullying behaviors, racism,

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Speaker 2: they are going to happen. The question is, how can

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Speaker 2: you ensure that I feel safe enough to say something

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Speaker 2: about it in the early stages, because what we want

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Speaker 2: is early intervention. So we're going to give people the

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Speaker 2: skills to do that, and then we're going to be

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Speaker 2: transparent about what's happening because when we do that, we

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Speaker 2: can learn from each other. And I'm loving some of

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Speaker 2: our strategies. In the mining companies at the minute. They

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Speaker 2: use these alert systems. So if you shot had your

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Speaker 2: finger cut off by a machine, there would be an

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Speaker 2: alert go round to all the sites saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is what happened to one of our team members.

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Speaker 2: This is what we learned. We need to update the

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Speaker 2: maintenance schedule on the machine, and this is what we're

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Speaker 2: want to do. What those companies are doing now is

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Speaker 2: doing something similar but for everyday respect or psychosocial risk.

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Speaker 2: So what they're doing is saying, oh, actually, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of our female team members was followed back to

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Speaker 2: her accommodation by a group of men leering and cat calling.

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Speaker 2: What did we learn, Well, this is an example of

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Speaker 2: sexual harassment, everyday disrespect, and we don't stand for that.

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Speaker 2: What did we do well? That group of men are

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Speaker 2: no longer on our site, I mean, or whatever the

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Speaker 2: consequence is. I'm not from a minute suggesting exiting is

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Speaker 2: it always appropriate? But it's just once again a reinforcement

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Speaker 2: of the behaviors, and it's really a setting of what

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Speaker 2: we call zero harm or zero tolerance. So I think

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Speaker 2: there's a few strategies that organizations can work with.

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Speaker 1: Liz. I think you've done more in this area than

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Speaker 1: anyone else in this country, at least over the last

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Speaker 1: fifteen years. I hope you keep doing it for the

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Speaker 1: next fifteen years, because we will get there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: are you confident will get there or is it just

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Speaker 1: an ever evolving thing?

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Speaker 2: Now? We absolutely will get there, Sean. And I think

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Speaker 2: look as we see more women in leadership positions as well,

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Speaker 2: because we know when you've got a better genender balance,

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Speaker 2: the culture's usually better. So that'll be one thing. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we have no choice but to get there, Sean, because

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Speaker 2: which one of us as a leader wants to know

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Speaker 2: that human harm's happening on our watch and we're not

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Speaker 2: doing anything about it, So none of us want that.

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Speaker 2: So yes, we will get there. It'll take a little

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Speaker 2: bit of time, but it'll also take some strong and

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Speaker 2: then intensional action.

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Speaker 1: Lise, thank you for talking to fear and greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Sean.

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Speaker 1: That was Elizabeth Broderick AO, former Australian Sex Discrimination Commissioner

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Speaker 1: and now the founder and principal of Elizabeth Broderick and Co.

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Speaker 1: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us

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Speaker 1: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed

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Speaker 1: business news for people who make their own decisions. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sean alma Enjoy your day.