WEBVTT - Read This: We Went to Helen Garner’s House

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<v Speaker 1>Hi there, It's Ruby Jones and I'm here to share

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<v Speaker 1>a very special episode of Read This. Hosted by editor

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<v Speaker 1>of the monthly Michael Williams, the show features conversations with

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<v Speaker 1>some of the most talented writers from Australia and around

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<v Speaker 1>the world. This week, we're going back to where it

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<v Speaker 1>all started and sharing the inaugural episode of Read This,

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<v Speaker 1>featuring Helen Garner. As always, Michael is here to tell

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<v Speaker 1>me a bit more about the episode him, Michael Ruby Jones. So, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>we're doing something a little different this week, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>actually going to play the first ever episode I've Read This,

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<v Speaker 1>which was recorded back in June of twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's a really special episode. It features one of

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<v Speaker 1>my all time favorite writers, Helen Garner, who at the

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<v Speaker 1>time was in the early stages of writing her latest

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<v Speaker 1>book this season, and the reason we're sharing this is

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<v Speaker 1>because sadly, as many of our listeners would already know,

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<v Speaker 1>Schwartz Media has decided to close their audio department, which

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<v Speaker 1>means that Read This no longer has a home and well,

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<v Speaker 1>we hope that the show continues again in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>It does seem like now is a good opportunity to

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<v Speaker 1>reflect on the amazing guests and incredible conversations that you've

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<v Speaker 1>had on the show and see just how far you've come.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Thanks Ruby. This is a little nostalgia kind of

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<v Speaker 2>victory lap from the read This team. We're very sad

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<v Speaker 2>to be finishing up our time at Schwartz Media and

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<v Speaker 2>the show goes into hiatus now, but we thought that

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<v Speaker 2>that was a good time to stop and take stock

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<v Speaker 2>and think about some of the kind of great moments

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<v Speaker 2>that we're very proud of in almost one hundred episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we've decided to go back to the first

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<v Speaker 2>episode we got Helen Ghana and the best thing about it,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's wonderful to listen back to this interview.

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<v Speaker 2>For a range of reasons. Helen welcomed us into her

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<v Speaker 2>home and we did the podcast episode from there, but

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<v Speaker 2>she was also at the start of the project that

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<v Speaker 2>would become the season. It was Helen at the point

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<v Speaker 2>at which she'd found the writing bag again and she

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<v Speaker 2>knew there was a book coming, and she was just

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<v Speaker 2>teasy away at the threads that would eventually become a

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<v Speaker 2>book that is now beloved, I'm sure by many of

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<v Speaker 2>our listeners. So it's so nice to listen to that

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<v Speaker 2>moment when an abstract idea and a moment in her

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<v Speaker 2>life was able to kind of make that shift to

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<v Speaker 2>being a book, and that kind of encapsulates in a

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<v Speaker 2>small way, what we've been lucky enough to do week

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<v Speaker 2>in week out on Read This is talk to writers,

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<v Speaker 2>not just on the publicity trail for the latest thing

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<v Speaker 2>that they've got on the shelves, but talk to them

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<v Speaker 2>in a moment of reflection or a moment of thoughtfulness.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Tony Birch talked about his grandmother and it

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<v Speaker 2>was while he was writing Women and Children. It certainly

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<v Speaker 2>gives insight into the book that would eventually come out,

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<v Speaker 2>but the interview was someone just talking about the stories

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<v Speaker 2>behind the book, and that, for us is what we've

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<v Speaker 2>tried to do again and again with George Saunders or

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<v Speaker 2>Roxanne Gay, with Michael and Dacci or Miranda Julive. We

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<v Speaker 2>got to go to Richard Flanagan's house or Kate Grenville's house,

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<v Speaker 2>we got to go to fitzro Pool twice. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>been a pretty wild ride and we have absolutely loved it.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is the final episode that we will be

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<v Speaker 1>playing of Read This on seven Am, and it's been

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<v Speaker 1>such a pleasure to share these stories with our audience.

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<v Speaker 1>For those listeners who want to hear more from the

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<v Speaker 1>Read This archive or stay looped about what might be

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<v Speaker 1>next for the show, what should they do?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, the best thing you can do if you're listening

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<v Speaker 2>to this on seven am is go across to the

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<v Speaker 2>read This feed and subscribe. If the show does come back,

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<v Speaker 2>that's where it'll come back, and that's where you'll hear

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<v Speaker 2>about it, and I encourage you to do so. Also

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<v Speaker 2>share it with people. The nice thing about these episodes

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<v Speaker 2>is they're a little bit timeless. Once you start digging

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<v Speaker 2>into the archive, there's no shortage of things that you

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<v Speaker 2>can discover and listen to, and it's a deeply pleasurable thing.

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<v Speaker 2>The only other thing I wanted to say to you,

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<v Speaker 2>Ruby and to the rest of the audio team at

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<v Speaker 2>Schwartz is that for me as editor of the monthly,

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<v Speaker 2>it's been a real revelation getting to work with the

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<v Speaker 2>extraordinary audio storytellers who have been part of the Schwartz

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<v Speaker 2>team since I started. They've taught me so much much

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<v Speaker 2>about my own editing practice, about the magazine, about the

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<v Speaker 2>ways in which we do the kind of publishing that

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<v Speaker 2>we do and the work that they've done, You've done,

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<v Speaker 2>all of you on seven AM has been such a

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<v Speaker 2>privilege to watch. You are incredible professionals. You're incredibly talented,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm super excited to keep listening to seven AM

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<v Speaker 2>and it's new home, and I am sure you will

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<v Speaker 2>all go on to continue to do great things. But

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<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to say personally a big thank you

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<v Speaker 2>from me. You will make us better at our jobs

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<v Speaker 2>and you're going to be missed.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up in just a moment. We went to Helen

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<v Speaker 1>Garanner's house, so.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just she works there.

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<v Speaker 2>And this one, Michael, can you check that one so

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<v Speaker 2>I can make sure that it's coming through This one

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<v Speaker 2>here Peter paper pict a peck of public.

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<v Speaker 4>Great.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're in Helen Garner's study. The bookshelves go to

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<v Speaker 2>the and the crams with books on psychology and piles

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<v Speaker 2>of international editions of her work. On the desk and

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<v Speaker 2>notepads where Helen's been writing ideas for future projects. Behind

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<v Speaker 2>the computer, She's pinned photos, cards, quotes from other writers.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels almost too intimate to take it all in,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet I can't help it. Snoop from Schwartz Media.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Michael Williams, and this is the first episode of

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<v Speaker 2>Read This, the show about the books we love and

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<v Speaker 2>the stories behind them. In our earliest conversations about making

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<v Speaker 2>this podcast, we made a list of all our dream guests,

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<v Speaker 2>and right at the top of it was Helen Garner.

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<v Speaker 2>So to be in her study is both thrilling and terrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>I've adored Helen Garner's books for decades, but it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just being a fan that makes me nervous. It's because

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<v Speaker 2>one of Garner's great powers is the clarity with which

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<v Speaker 2>she sees the world, the fearlessness of her gaze, the

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<v Speaker 2>sharpness of her judgment. Imagine meeting Helen Garner and having

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<v Speaker 2>her think you are full devastating. But that perception of

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<v Speaker 2>Garner is missing the generosity, the curiosity, and the tenderness

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<v Speaker 2>that runs through her work. And she's a generous host too.

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<v Speaker 2>She puts the cakes we've brought to the side for

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<v Speaker 2>after and we sit down to talk about what she's

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<v Speaker 2>working on, her views on marriage, and what runs through

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<v Speaker 2>her head is she goes about every day.

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<v Speaker 4>I've noticed lately now that I'm all old and officially

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<v Speaker 4>old because I'm eighty that I talk to myself a lot.

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<v Speaker 4>I often think my daughter must hear me from next door, thinking,

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<v Speaker 4>oh God, what's she raving about? But I so try

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<v Speaker 4>to think what it is that I'm doing when I'm

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<v Speaker 4>talking to myself, and I seem to be working things out,

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<v Speaker 4>but allowed or I'm reliving certain encounters I had with

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<v Speaker 4>certain people and rewriting them, you know, so that I

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<v Speaker 4>actually said something or made a point.

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<v Speaker 3>Or in the.

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<v Speaker 4>Car when I'm driving along, I play out anger. Basically,

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<v Speaker 4>I invent, invent sounds a little bit too purposeful into

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<v Speaker 4>my mind, come or float exchanges that I might be

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<v Speaker 4>having with somebody who might be critical of me for

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<v Speaker 4>the way I'm just I've just driven, and I think

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<v Speaker 4>of all sorts of clever put downs and shattering insults.

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<v Speaker 3>I do a fair bit of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that imagined people you're arguing with? Or do you

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<v Speaker 2>do you retread old arguments as well?

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<v Speaker 4>Both? But I noticed one thing I often say in

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<v Speaker 4>these little scenes that come to.

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<v Speaker 3>Mind is how dare you? How dare you take that

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<v Speaker 3>tone with me?

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<v Speaker 4>You know? I talk like that and in your head

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<v Speaker 4>mistressly sort of way, and it's kind of really.

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<v Speaker 2>Enjoyable, if not reprosecuting old arguments or imagining pretend arguments.

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<v Speaker 2>The other thing that you said you do when you

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<v Speaker 2>talk to yourself is your problem solving. You're kind of

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<v Speaker 2>working away at things. Is that a typical part of

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<v Speaker 2>how your brain works.

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<v Speaker 4>No, that's much too organized for what happens to me

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<v Speaker 4>in those moments. I actually, one thing that happened to

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<v Speaker 4>me yesterday interested me to think about that is that

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<v Speaker 4>I've actually been feeling quite well, I think i'd have

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<v Speaker 4>to say depressed lately since the whole COVID thing ended,

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<v Speaker 4>and I don't seem to have much shortageois de viev

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<v Speaker 4>going on. I have hardly been listening to music, and

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<v Speaker 4>I used to listen to it all the time, and

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<v Speaker 4>it's really important to me, and it's just recently it's

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<v Speaker 4>dawned on me that I hardly ever go and put

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<v Speaker 4>on a CD anymore. I sort of can't be bothered

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<v Speaker 4>fighting my way through the drawer and finding it, and

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<v Speaker 4>I haven't got Spotify and I don't want it, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think, well, it's almost as if music has left

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<v Speaker 4>my life. So I thought yesterday, Okay, while I'm hoovering

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<v Speaker 4>I'll put my ear plugs in and I'll listen to

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<v Speaker 4>some music on my phone. I thought, what will I

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<v Speaker 4>listen to? I thought, okay, I'll listened to Jays Bark's

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<v Speaker 4>Matthew Passion. So I put that on and I just

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<v Speaker 4>randomly on YouTube found most exquisite performance of it by

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<v Speaker 4>the Netherlands Bach Society. I listened to half of Matthew Passion,

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<v Speaker 4>thinking I was just going to listen for ten minutes,

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<v Speaker 4>and I found that I was completely absorbed by it

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<v Speaker 4>and not needing to get up or blow my nose

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<v Speaker 4>or make a note or turn a switch or do anything.

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<v Speaker 4>And I just sat quite still for about an hour

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<v Speaker 4>and a half listening to the music. And after that

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<v Speaker 4>I had to turn it off because I had to

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<v Speaker 4>go to my grandson's footage training. But I felt so

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<v Speaker 4>revived by listening to it, and I'm so grateful because

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<v Speaker 4>I thought, I'm not over and done with you know,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not a dead fish lying.

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<v Speaker 3>On the pavement.

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<v Speaker 4>I can actually listen to music and it still means

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<v Speaker 4>a lot to me, and my mood completely revived. And

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<v Speaker 4>so then I went down to footy training, which is

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<v Speaker 4>always fabulous. I love it and I thought, Oh, I

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<v Speaker 4>suppose I'll wake up in the morning feeling like I

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<v Speaker 4>did duck again. But I'll wake up this morning thinking Wow,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm going to jump out of bed and I'm going

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<v Speaker 4>to do stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>And so then I sat down and.

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<v Speaker 4>Actually started writing something which I haven't done quite a while.

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<v Speaker 4>And when I looked up, several hours had passed.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a very rare thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Is stillness something that comes easily to you, the stillness

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<v Speaker 2>you describe of listening to the music.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it doesn't. It doesn't come easily to me.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm always nervy and twitchy and jumping about. I'm noticing

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<v Speaker 4>that there's removalists next door, and I'm wondering.

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<v Speaker 2>Us just what SAIDs that's fine? So that if they're

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<v Speaker 2>talking in the background, if we don't have that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's GUYE delivering a fridge.

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<v Speaker 4>They'll be gone in a minute.

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<v Speaker 3>That they don't know how to get it in. It's

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<v Speaker 3>next door.

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<v Speaker 4>Can you get what they're saying?

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<v Speaker 2>Not just bang it, just bang it through. It'll be

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<v Speaker 2>fine to be in Helen Ghana's house and know she's

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<v Speaker 2>been writing something new is exhilarating. But we've had to

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<v Speaker 2>stop because of trade's coming in and out of the

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<v Speaker 2>house next door where her daughter and grandsons live. Living

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<v Speaker 2>next door to her grandsons is a particular joy for Helen.

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<v Speaker 2>She delights in things like watching them at footage training.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, it's this that she's been writing about.

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<v Speaker 3>This this whole world of.

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<v Speaker 4>Boys on the cusp of being men that I find

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<v Speaker 4>deeply fascinating and beautiful. All the boys in my grandson's team,

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<v Speaker 4>they've all got broken voices. You know, they sound like men,

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<v Speaker 4>and they look not quite like men, but a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of the I've got big shoulders and they're big, strong boys.

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<v Speaker 4>But when they come close to you while playing, you

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<v Speaker 4>see the youth that's still there in their faces. And

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<v Speaker 4>it's just that strange, kind of magical period before they

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<v Speaker 4>become totally men.

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<v Speaker 2>Are they kind to one another when you watch them

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:21.400
<v Speaker 2>as a team, like, is that.

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.439
<v Speaker 4>A oh kindness?

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.040
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps not quite the word.

0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:30.000
<v Speaker 4>I noticed an enormous affection and love between them. There's

0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.520
<v Speaker 4>a kind of joy they take in each other's mighty

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.520
<v Speaker 4>things that they do. And how when somebody kicks a

0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.360
<v Speaker 4>goal they rush to him and envelop them in enormous hugs.

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.040
<v Speaker 4>I actually saw one footballer kiss another one on the

0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:44.400
<v Speaker 4>brow recently.

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 3>I was terribly pleased to see that.

0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.319
<v Speaker 4>See, I've only raised a girl, and I never knew

0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.040
<v Speaker 4>much about I had a brother, but he was much

0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:52.679
<v Speaker 4>much younger than me, and I didn't have all that

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.760
<v Speaker 4>much to do with him in childhood. So now I've

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 4>got these two grandsons, and I've lived with them since

0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.559
<v Speaker 4>they were born, so I've watched them living and growing,

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:07.200
<v Speaker 4>and I see how hard it is for boys, a

0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 4>different sort of hardship from girls. Seeing boys close up

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 4>and sensing I don't know if I would call it

0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.600
<v Speaker 4>anguish in the case of these boys. I'm sure they

0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.800
<v Speaker 4>had certain moments of extreme on happiness, as everybody does

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 4>in the ordeal with childhood, but I'd love to know

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:31.560
<v Speaker 4>more about it. And I guess that's one reason why

0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.120
<v Speaker 4>I was drawn to looking at the footy.

0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:34.959
<v Speaker 3>Team, just to see.

0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:37.520
<v Speaker 4>And you watch and you watch, and you watch the

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 4>training and you watch the matches, and you can see

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 4>which kids are suffering, not just from the game, but

0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 4>in Some kids take naturally to being in a team

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 4>and it suits them, and other kids don't know how

0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:53.920
<v Speaker 4>to do it, and you can see them hovering on

0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 4>the outside, even if they're quite a good players. They

0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.840
<v Speaker 4>don't have that sort of bond on me that perhaps

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 4>hoping for, so I see, I can take any amount

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 4>of this sort of stuff. I actually love watching the

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.079
<v Speaker 4>training even more than watching the matches.

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.679
<v Speaker 2>What I love about that is that it seems your

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:17.560
<v Speaker 2>description of yourself as not being a very still person

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 2>almost seems at odds with that creative process, which is

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 2>finding something you're fascinated by and watching it and being

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.160
<v Speaker 2>patient with it. And you know, it sounds like there's

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.160
<v Speaker 2>a kind of conceptual stillness sitting watching training.

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:34.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.720
<v Speaker 4>Well, that's a very interesting point too, because another time

0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.240
<v Speaker 4>in my life when I've had to sit still for many,

0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 4>many hours is in a court and watching a trial.

0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.280
<v Speaker 4>And sometimes sometimes I'm at training and there's nothing much

0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 4>happening and I'm just watching. I'm thinking, am I bored?

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm thinking this is objectively boring?

0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 3>But I am not bored.

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 4>And that's what I used to think in court when

0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 4>there were really long, boring passive of court behavior, which

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.680
<v Speaker 4>were lawyers were just droning on.

0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.200
<v Speaker 3>And even though that's when I realized that this was

0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 3>work I.

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 4>Was born to do, because even when it was objectively boring,

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 4>I was never bored.

0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Why do you think you're not bored in those situations?

0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Is it not to be pat about it, but is

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.720
<v Speaker 2>it about the human beings? Like is it you're just

0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.880
<v Speaker 2>endlessly fascinated in watching people?

0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I think it's that.

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 4>But it's also when I first started going to courts,

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.080
<v Speaker 4>I felt so good when I was there, and I

0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.240
<v Speaker 4>couldn't wait to get there every morning, And I thought,

0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:42.240
<v Speaker 4>why does this make me feel so right? And I

0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.520
<v Speaker 4>came up with an explanation. I thought, it's because my brain,

0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.720
<v Speaker 4>or my intellect and my emotions were both working full bore,

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 4>but they were working in concert with each other and

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 4>not clashing against each other, which is how often we

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 4>think about the intellect and the emotions that they're kind

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 4>of we're going to say enemies, but opponents. But when

0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 4>they work smoothly together, that's when you feel this strange

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:12.800
<v Speaker 4>kind of joy I suppose.

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Coming up after the break, Helen tells us about the

0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 2>intellectual and emotional task of revisiting her old diaries and

0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 2>what that's shown her about marriage. Welcome Back. One of

0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 2>my friends, a fellow Helen Ghana Tragic will often quote

0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.120
<v Speaker 2>from a twenty sixteen piece that describes Garna's defining characteristic

0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 2>as an awakeness and a liveness to the thinness of things.

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.120
<v Speaker 2>I like this quote for me. The deep pleasure of

0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>reading Ghna lies in her precision, so sharp, not a

0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 2>word wasted going into this interview where our favorite garner.

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.080
<v Speaker 2>For me, it's the children's bark. For our producer, Clara

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.560
<v Speaker 2>monkey Grip. Around the office, there were advocates for just

0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.959
<v Speaker 2>about everything she's done, fans of her court reporting and

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.520
<v Speaker 2>her collected essays. The Spare Room rated more than one mention.

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Her most recent books are three volumes of her diaries.

0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 2>They range from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen ninety eight,

0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and in nothing short of astonishing. The third volume, How

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.160
<v Speaker 2>to End a Story, is as detailed and real an

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.160
<v Speaker 2>account of the breakdown of a marriage as you could read.

0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.959
<v Speaker 2>Reading the diaries, you feel like you really know Helen.

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.120
<v Speaker 2>They're shockingly intimate. No one is spared, least of all her,

0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.760
<v Speaker 2>so it's not surprising that her fans of all ages

0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.280
<v Speaker 2>connect with her and want to write to her. So

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.879
<v Speaker 2>the young new generation of Helen Gharana readers will be

0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.600
<v Speaker 2>coming to you not just for kind of writing advice,

0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 2>but even life advice. Do you find that there's a

0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.679
<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, dear Helen, please advice on marriage?

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.240
<v Speaker 4>No, no, I don't get I get people telling me

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.040
<v Speaker 4>their stories, but they don't seem to be asking for advice.

0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.880
<v Speaker 4>It's more like, well, you know what, women tell their

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.640
<v Speaker 4>stories of rage and sadness, and they appreciate it when

0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 4>some other woman sort of shrieks over it with them.

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:19.800
<v Speaker 4>People will say, oh my god, you know, I read

0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.680
<v Speaker 4>what happened to you on page so and so and

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.159
<v Speaker 4>and this reminded me of such and such a you know,

0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 4>they'll give an incident from there. This is in emails

0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 4>from strangers, and I just hugely enjoyed that they're not

0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:34.960
<v Speaker 4>asking for advice.

0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Basically, I'm pitching to you an agony. Aren't Colin and

0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 2>the Month play where it's Hell and Advisors. I think

0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:42.679
<v Speaker 2>we would get a huge update.

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.439
<v Speaker 4>My advice would be get out now, is one answer.

0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 4>That's one great thing about not being married anymore and

0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.040
<v Speaker 4>being old being you know, when the world of romances

0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 4>is over and it's like that's all over and.

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.480
<v Speaker 3>You go into this wonderful world.

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 4>Of freedom, you can be friends with men in ways

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.080
<v Speaker 4>that you know when you're still out there in the

0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.400
<v Speaker 4>sort of dating world, or if you've still got hopes

0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.040
<v Speaker 4>that you're going to meet some guy that you'd like

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.800
<v Speaker 4>to live with or or sleep with or something you know,

0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.520
<v Speaker 4>and all that's just plainly overs It's wonderful. It's like

0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 4>having swum across a raging torrent and you're standing on

0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.919
<v Speaker 4>the opposite bank, and you know, I look back and

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.320
<v Speaker 4>I see all these other women thrashing their way across.

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to say, keep swimming. It's great over here.

0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:48.600
<v Speaker 2>That's an unexpected part of your advice, Colgide. I mean

0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.679
<v Speaker 2>the amazing achievement that is the three volumes of the

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:56.120
<v Speaker 2>diaries and absolute privilege to read it as a reader.

0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 2>But for you, I'm going to think them revisiting them,

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.479
<v Speaker 2>editing them, but literally immersing yourself in your own past.

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Were you surprised by finding what younger Helen where she was,

0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.360
<v Speaker 2>what she needed to do, her understanding of herself?

0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well I felt going through those old diaries. I

0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 4>was quite shocked sometimes by what a wimp I was

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.080
<v Speaker 4>and what I put up with. Points at which I

0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 4>didn't spit the dummy or say this isn't how.

0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:32.919
<v Speaker 3>I want to live. You know, I don't want to

0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.520
<v Speaker 3>live like this? Why am I still here?

0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.879
<v Speaker 4>Luna used to draw these cartoons of angels flying in

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.000
<v Speaker 4>the sky and they had these little kind of fluttering

0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.280
<v Speaker 4>nighties on and little wings on their backs, and they'd

0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 4>be looking down at all the human beings on the

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 4>earth kind of tearing each other apart, and the angels

0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.120
<v Speaker 4>would have their hands up to their faces like this,

0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 4>and their faces would be distorted with horror as they

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 4>look down on what people were doing. And when I

0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.119
<v Speaker 4>was doing the diaries, off that that's what it was

0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 4>like to do the diaries. I couldn't change anything that

0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.800
<v Speaker 4>was there. All I could do was just look down

0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.840
<v Speaker 4>in horror within my nighty flapping in the breeze. It's

0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.159
<v Speaker 4>really awful actually talking about with you now. I'm thinking

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.439
<v Speaker 4>maybe that's one reason of being kind of depressed and

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 4>loan spirits, because it takes a lot of getting over

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.120
<v Speaker 4>dragging yourself through that sort of stuff.

0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.400
<v Speaker 4>That's ridiculous that I hadn't thought of it.

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.160
<v Speaker 2>It's an extraordinary thing to go through lost, disappointment, all

0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:40.560
<v Speaker 2>of that stuff to unearth it. I mean, it's in public,

0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 2>in public, yeah, mother. What a strange thing. Forget therapy,

0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.359
<v Speaker 2>unearthing your old diaries and sharing them with the world

0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.240
<v Speaker 2>seems kind of excoriating.

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 3>Well, it sort of was.

0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.960
<v Speaker 4>And yet I've been amazed to find how many people

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.040
<v Speaker 4>have got in touch with me about them. I'm in strangers,

0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 4>and how many women have said to me, this could

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:04.280
<v Speaker 4>be my marriage, and I've found that really shocking.

0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:06.720
<v Speaker 3>It's made me realize again that.

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 4>Marriage is terribly, terribly difficult, and it's.

0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.439
<v Speaker 3>Not really set up for the flourishing of women.

0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.560
<v Speaker 2>With the release of the diaries and with your backlist

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.800
<v Speaker 2>being picked up overseas in a way that it hasn't

0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:26.280
<v Speaker 2>necessarily been published before. Something that I take great pleasure

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 2>from is finding people who are discovering alan Ghana at

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.120
<v Speaker 2>this point and feel like, you know, have you heard

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:36.439
<v Speaker 2>of Helen Ganna? She's fantastic. I had a colleague at

0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:38.639
<v Speaker 2>an old job who my first day and I went

0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.399
<v Speaker 2>in and above her desk and her office were photos

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.119
<v Speaker 2>and like pictures of you from magazines and things. It

0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:46.639
<v Speaker 2>was like Shay Gavara, but it was you, And she

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.879
<v Speaker 2>was maybe twenty two twenty three and was just an

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.440
<v Speaker 2>obsessive fan. Is it strange? Having a different.

0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 3>Relationship with fantastic.

0:22:55.840 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 4>Thank you for telling me that that's really wonderful. Yeah, well,

0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.080
<v Speaker 4>I don't know how to even think about that. I'm

0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.680
<v Speaker 4>just terribly happy about it, because you know, you write

0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.320
<v Speaker 4>books and the years pass and you think, well, I

0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.000
<v Speaker 4>wrote that book thirty five years ago, forty years ago,

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:13.920
<v Speaker 4>but it's still in print. I mean, this is amazing

0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 4>to me. It's amazing to me that Monkey Group is

0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.919
<v Speaker 4>still in print. I don't know what I expected. I

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.880
<v Speaker 4>never had any kind of thought out ambition. Young people now,

0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.639
<v Speaker 4>I know, have a much clearer idea, if you know,

0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.840
<v Speaker 4>they would use an expression like my career, which I

0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:29.520
<v Speaker 4>never would have.

0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 3>But I think that maybe my work falls.

0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:36.560
<v Speaker 4>It's sort of it's in a territory that's between older

0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.480
<v Speaker 4>things and then there's all these newer things. But I'm

0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.919
<v Speaker 4>just still sitting there and I don't know what that means,

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.680
<v Speaker 4>but pretty pleased about it.

0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.120
<v Speaker 2>From my perspective, I think it means that there's such

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>integrity to the work. There's no looking over your shoulder

0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.159
<v Speaker 2>on the page. It seems like it's all there. And

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.959
<v Speaker 2>yet the thing that struck me reading the diaries was

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.199
<v Speaker 2>how omnipresent self doubt an anxiety was through all of that.

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:05.480
<v Speaker 4>See, the thing that happens is just say the book

0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 4>like The Children's Bark, which I think is like technically

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 4>the best thing I've ever written. People talk about it,

0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.879
<v Speaker 4>you know, respectfully, and then if I go back and

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:16.600
<v Speaker 4>look at it and open it up, I think, gosh,

0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 4>it is actually really good. And how did I do it?

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.400
<v Speaker 4>I don't remember how I did it, and I think

0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.320
<v Speaker 4>I must have been in almost like a different person

0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:27.159
<v Speaker 4>back then. I must have been going through a period

0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:29.639
<v Speaker 4>of where I was sort of calm and organized and

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:33.680
<v Speaker 4>my thoughts were working. And then one day when subsequent

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.200
<v Speaker 4>to that, I was trying to write another book and

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.159
<v Speaker 4>groaning and tearing out the hair over it, and I

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:41.159
<v Speaker 4>sort of flung myself back on the couch in my

0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:43.840
<v Speaker 4>workroom next to the bookshelf, and I saw this little

0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 4>notebook sticking out, and I pulled it out, and what's this?

0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:48.720
<v Speaker 4>And I looked and it was a little diary that

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:50.679
<v Speaker 4>I'd been keeping around the time I was writing The

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:54.600
<v Speaker 4>Children's Bark. And it showed me that The Children's Buck

0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.160
<v Speaker 4>didn't just flow out fully formed from the head of use.

0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.360
<v Speaker 3>You know, it was awful. I was going, oh, why

0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:01.240
<v Speaker 3>did I overstart this?

0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.480
<v Speaker 4>And I've got all these fucking characters and I don't

0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:08.040
<v Speaker 4>know how to make them do things, and what on earth?

0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:09.920
<v Speaker 3>I had no idea what I was doing.

0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 4>That's what I'm getting at, and that surprises me.

0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:19.879
<v Speaker 2>Thinking about your anxiety is about writing now, and you know,

0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:21.359
<v Speaker 2>what if I've lost it or what if it's not

0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the reading your diaries, you seem to have those exact

0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.800
<v Speaker 2>same anxieties. That doesn't seem to be about being eighty.

0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:32.120
<v Speaker 2>It seems to have been as present when you're forty.

0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:33.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, as it is now.

0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.359
<v Speaker 4>Yes, but doesn't everyone feel that sort of self doubt?

0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, but I don't think everyone creates a body of work,

0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:48.399
<v Speaker 2>the masterpieces. I mean, at some point it might be

0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:50.760
<v Speaker 2>okay to be I'm Helen fucking Gunner.

0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:51.200
<v Speaker 4>It's okay.

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel self doubt anymore.

0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, No, I don't think I'll ever feel like that.

0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 4>The time when I feel the most competent probably is

0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:03.359
<v Speaker 4>if somebody says, ask me to read something that they've written,

0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:08.760
<v Speaker 4>and I can see what is wrong with it, and

0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:12.359
<v Speaker 4>I can see how I could fix it. You see,

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:14.600
<v Speaker 4>I think when in doubt cut it out.

0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:15.840
<v Speaker 3>That's my rule.

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:18.960
<v Speaker 4>And sometimes it really hurts to cut something out because

0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:20.000
<v Speaker 4>it's a darling.

0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 3>And you have to murder it. But people should murder

0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:23.840
<v Speaker 3>them more.

0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.200
<v Speaker 4>That's all I'm saying. People don't want to slaughter their

0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.160
<v Speaker 4>own work. They don't, you know, they drag it out

0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:30.840
<v Speaker 4>of their guts with pain and suffering.

0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:33.080
<v Speaker 3>But that doesn't mean.

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:35.520
<v Speaker 4>It's any good just because you dragged it out of

0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:36.000
<v Speaker 4>your guts.

0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:38.520
<v Speaker 2>No, sometimes the opposite.

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:42.639
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Yeah, I'm interested. I'm interested in this stuff. I mean, see,

0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:47.159
<v Speaker 4>because I really like sentences. I just love them, and

0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:50.360
<v Speaker 4>I love the way you build them, and I'm sort

0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:53.000
<v Speaker 4>of really I'm kind of in love with grammar and syntax.

0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:56.000
<v Speaker 4>It's really important to me. And when people say it's

0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:58.280
<v Speaker 4>not important, I get completely frantic.

0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:03.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a wonderful passage in that third volume of

0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:08.200
<v Speaker 2>your Diaries where you imagine a future for yourself, where

0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:11.720
<v Speaker 2>young Helen imagines a future for herself and imagines living

0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 2>closer to your daughter potentially eventual grandchildren, and that you know,

0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.280
<v Speaker 2>you're imagining what it would be to be a grandmother.

0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:22.080
<v Speaker 2>You're thinking about going to gigs and catching up with

0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:24.399
<v Speaker 2>friends and having a drink and walking the streets and

0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:27.919
<v Speaker 2>one of the beautiful joyous things about reading that in

0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:30.720
<v Speaker 2>the book was thinking, it's more or less a pretty

0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:31.600
<v Speaker 2>accurate description.

0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 4>It came true. But you know the other thing about

0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:37.399
<v Speaker 4>that fantasy when I had it was that that was

0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:41.399
<v Speaker 4>when I was in psychoanalytic psychotherapy, and I had this

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:44.160
<v Speaker 4>lovely fantasy about one day I'm going to be out

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:46.240
<v Speaker 4>of this a mess I'm in and I'm going to

0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:47.879
<v Speaker 4>have this wonderful life and I'm going to have the

0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 4>iron set up permanently and anyway, So I go to

0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:54.000
<v Speaker 4>shrink the next day and I say, oh, I was

0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:57.240
<v Speaker 4>just thinking yesterday about you know, one day oh blah

0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.720
<v Speaker 4>blah blah. And I explained this fantasy to her and she.

0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:02.720
<v Speaker 3>Said, yes, well it is just a fantasy.

0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:06.160
<v Speaker 4>Of course, that's another fantasy of escape. And I thought, oh,

0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:09.639
<v Speaker 4>like she threw the huge bucket of cold water over me,

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 4>which I needed, because having a fantasy of your life

0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:16.920
<v Speaker 4>being better is not part of getting yourself out of

0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:17.840
<v Speaker 4>the mess that you're in.

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.960
<v Speaker 2>You don't think it gives you something to motivate you

0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:22.560
<v Speaker 2>to get out of that.

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:27.040
<v Speaker 4>Maybe, but no, I mean her point was, her point

0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:30.200
<v Speaker 4>was always to me that you have to feel this

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:33.800
<v Speaker 4>you've got to feel what you're going through. And I

0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 4>found that terribly bracing and useful. I'm suddenly thinking. We

0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 4>read the book Gilgamesh in our reading group a couple

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:46.160
<v Speaker 4>of years ago, and there's a scene in Gilgamesh where

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:48.080
<v Speaker 4>he's underground.

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 3>He's in some.

0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:54.080
<v Speaker 4>Frightful dark chasm or cave, and he's thrashing his way

0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:56.520
<v Speaker 4>along and he's got no idea which way is up

0:28:56.640 --> 0:28:59.600
<v Speaker 4>or whether there's a hole out of which you can

0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:02.480
<v Speaker 4>drag himself, and he just has to keep going and

0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 4>keep going and keep going, and it's excruciating.

0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.720
<v Speaker 3>But eventually he glimpses.

0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 4>This light, a tiny speck of light, and he thrashes

0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.640
<v Speaker 4>his way towards it, and he finds that there's an opening,

0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:18.040
<v Speaker 4>and he comes out into the air. And then the

0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:21.840
<v Speaker 4>line of the poem says, and then Gilgamesh saw the sea.

0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:23.960
<v Speaker 3>It was so wonderful.

0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 4>But I suppose, I mean, Gilgamesh wasn't down there thinking, oh, geez,

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:29.400
<v Speaker 4>I wish I could see the sea.

0:29:29.800 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean, well, one day I'm going to see the sea.

0:29:32.120 --> 0:29:35.800
<v Speaker 4>He was just fighting his way through the blackness, and

0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:38.360
<v Speaker 4>I sometimes think that's maybe what she was telling me.

0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:41.280
<v Speaker 4>I had to do just stay right in it, you know,

0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:42.320
<v Speaker 4>and not in the middle.

0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Of the fight.

0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Hey, let's go and eat the cakes. Yeah, we'll

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:49.320
<v Speaker 3>just leave all this.

0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for listening to this episode of

0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:59.120
<v Speaker 1>Read This. As I mentioned earlier, if you want to

0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:01.120
<v Speaker 1>dive further into the show, oh you can search for it.

0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Where have you listen to podcasts?