WEBVTT - Accidental lunch with Roger Rogerson: Greg Goold Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world, Greg,

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<v Speaker 1>I like to like I did prepare before court. I

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<v Speaker 1>prepare before I do podcasts, and it's in part of

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<v Speaker 1>my investigation. Before I've sat down spoken to you that

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<v Speaker 1>it's come to my attention, there's an allegation that you'll

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<v Speaker 1>fired a three fifty seven magnum in central local court.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I'm going to ask you about that. I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to understand you're not obliged to say anything or

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<v Speaker 1>do anything, but anything you do, say or do may

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<v Speaker 1>later be used in evidence. Do you understand that.

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<v Speaker 2>I do understand that.

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<v Speaker 1>Gary, Okay, well, I want you to choose your words

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<v Speaker 1>very carefully and think what I'm asking you here. Greg.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you ever fired a three point fifty seven magnum

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<v Speaker 1>in Central Local Court?

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<v Speaker 2>I have, fortunately it was later with blanks, but I

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<v Speaker 2>have fired the gun in the presence of two ones.

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<v Speaker 2>To cease now, so we've got to speak well of

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<v Speaker 2>you two, very very well. They thought they were funny.

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<v Speaker 2>Detect this.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's pretty funny. In this day and age.

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<v Speaker 1>I definitely wouldn't think it'd be acceptable, can you. I

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<v Speaker 1>was reading about that and it's written down somewhere about

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<v Speaker 1>you firing that three point fifty seven magnum in the

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<v Speaker 1>courthouse or in the front of the courthouse.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it was. It was in the foyer of Central

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<v Speaker 2>Local Court. And anyone who's been to Central Local Court

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<v Speaker 2>will know that you walked through these a walk up

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<v Speaker 2>the steps of this beautiful old court building. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the original Magistrates court, and you walk through some glass

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<v Speaker 2>doors and further glass doors into this big area which

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<v Speaker 2>leads off into various court rooms and the court office

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<v Speaker 2>and It was probably about three o'clock in the afternoon,

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<v Speaker 2>and for some reason I had to go down there.

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<v Speaker 2>It may have been to file something or to find

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<v Speaker 2>out what was going on in a particular court that

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<v Speaker 2>I had some interest in. And I walked in and

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<v Speaker 2>I ran into a now deceeased officer, Billy Mansell, who

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<v Speaker 2>was a genuinely nice guy and had actually done a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of undercover worker and it all seemed to me

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<v Speaker 2>that he was too nice a black to be involved

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<v Speaker 2>in that sort of stuff. And in any event, Billy

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<v Speaker 2>was there with another detective who I can't recall, and

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<v Speaker 2>when I ran into Bell, and he'd been involved in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of drug investigations that I had been involved in,

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<v Speaker 2>and I lusted what they were doing there. And they

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<v Speaker 2>said they were hanging around waiting to give evidence, and

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<v Speaker 2>what was the case about, and they said it's drugs

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<v Speaker 2>and guns. And I'd sort of been glanced to my

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<v Speaker 2>right and just to the left of the entrance to

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<v Speaker 2>the court room there's this great, big revolver sitting on

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<v Speaker 2>the chair, large as life.

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<v Speaker 1>Clean Eastwood Stock exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It was. They're big guns. They're big guns. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I've walked over and I said, is that a three

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<v Speaker 2>five seven mag And they said, yeah, you have a

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<v Speaker 2>look at it, pick it up. Well, they were really

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<v Speaker 2>really friendly about it and encouraging. Man, I'm not a

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<v Speaker 2>particularly lover of guns, but I thought, well, I'll just

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<v Speaker 2>want to get a feel of this thing. What they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't tell me was that the bloody thing had a

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<v Speaker 2>hair trigger and that they'd put blanks in it. I've

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<v Speaker 2>touched I've picked it up. As I was turning around

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<v Speaker 2>to say something like, just bloody heavy, isn't it, I've

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<v Speaker 2>touched the trigger and it's gone off. In the middle

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<v Speaker 2>of the foyer with cases going on, Well, all hell

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<v Speaker 2>break loose there and people started running from everywhere, and

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<v Speaker 2>excuse me using this language. There's Billy and the other

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<v Speaker 2>copper absolutely pissing themselves with laughter and having a great

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<v Speaker 2>joke at my expense. And it took me a long

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<v Speaker 2>time to live that down.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a that is a good get. That is

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<v Speaker 1>a very good job. But could you imagine if that

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<v Speaker 1>happened today? The courthouse would be shut down, It'd be secured,

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<v Speaker 1>there'd be negotiaders called out, it would just and everyone

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<v Speaker 1>involved in it would be in all sorts of trouble

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<v Speaker 1>and people who would be off on post aumatic stress.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a different world, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>It is it is we take I think I think

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<v Speaker 2>in some respects we take life too seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And like you were the scene, some of the

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<v Speaker 1>characters in the police and some of the crooks, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the people in the court, some of the court officers.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a little bit more robust and there was

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of sense. There was a sense of humor

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<v Speaker 1>in there as well.

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<v Speaker 2>There was It's one of my favorite, not warding homes,

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<v Speaker 2>but lunching places is a Greek restaurant. I give them

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<v Speaker 2>a plug called Vietne's.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I had many a meal there and it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Still great food. And i'd regularly see tables of detectives

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<v Speaker 2>down there on a Friday afternoon. And as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you leave everything in the courtroom. It's everyone got a

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<v Speaker 2>job to do in this industry and you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>take it seriously, but you shouldn't carry it with you

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<v Speaker 2>when you leave. And you'd always have a laugh.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that that's good. And there's I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>there's people that you've crossed it that you don't get

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<v Speaker 1>past that. But the people that I've dealt with when

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<v Speaker 1>I don't mind playing hard but fair, and I respect

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<v Speaker 1>people with the doing their job coming at the hard

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<v Speaker 1>but fair and vice versa, and there's not it's nice

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes after it's finished that you can actually yeah, it

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<v Speaker 1>might be just a begrudging nod, but showing respect to

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<v Speaker 1>the person that you've been up against in an adversarial

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<v Speaker 1>system because you are up against them, and the way

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<v Speaker 1>you described it in part one, it's like a playing

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<v Speaker 1>within the rules of a sporting match.

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<v Speaker 2>I've had the benefit. On one occasion, I was in

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<v Speaker 2>the Old Courthouse Hotel after a trial. I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was up there with Pat Costello. Pat and I'd get

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<v Speaker 2>involved in a trial up there, and we're actually having

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<v Speaker 2>a drink with a very legend detective by the name

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<v Speaker 2>of Johnny Burke. It was as hard as nails have

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<v Speaker 2>a drink with John and he was the nicest blake

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. When someone came up and started giving

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<v Speaker 2>either him or the grief, well, he went from the

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<v Speaker 2>nicest blake in the world to a bloke I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>want it to have been arrested by.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't want to take that different person, didn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>wan across at the court house. I tell yeah, many

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<v Speaker 1>a victory drink spent there, just leading into that when

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<v Speaker 1>you do win a case is there and I would

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<v Speaker 1>imagine and people that you genuinely don't believe it are

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<v Speaker 1>guilty and the justice would be served if they've gone off.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you go out then celebrate? And you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to specific examples, but is it something that's done.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, yeah, it is something that's done. You go and

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<v Speaker 2>have a drink with the with the sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>defendants group, with the q's group, but you don't spend

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<v Speaker 2>it a lot of time there. I got caught once

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<v Speaker 2>down at Aubrey with the with the Black Ullans after

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<v Speaker 2>winning a case there, and I was supposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>It was a Friday, and I was I supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>beginning home the next day to move house with my wife.

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<v Speaker 2>And she never lets me forget this, but they got

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<v Speaker 2>me absolutely drunk to the point where I couldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>on the plane they had. They had to carry me

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<v Speaker 2>home to someone's bed and put me on the plane

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<v Speaker 2>the next day.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, great caution, I shouldn't have to. Yeah, it might

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<v Speaker 1>sound exciting going for a drink at the clubhouse, but yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>they got you, they got me. Okay, well you've learnt,

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<v Speaker 1>you learned your lesson. You've been around long enough to

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<v Speaker 1>see King's Cross when it was that that golden mile,

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<v Speaker 1>when it was the under the King's Cross, underworld, the underbelly.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us about your experiences there because you're working in

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<v Speaker 1>criminal law there before the Royal Commission of the Wood

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<v Speaker 1>Royal Commission, I'm talking about the commission into police corruption

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<v Speaker 1>that dragged a lot of people in. But you you

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<v Speaker 1>knew that world, you understood that world, and tell us

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<v Speaker 1>about those times.

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<v Speaker 2>It was. It was an interesting It was an interesting

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<v Speaker 2>world because it was it was the place where people

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<v Speaker 2>went to enjoy themselves. But it was it was, as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, we go back to the Vietnam War as

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<v Speaker 2>being I think the crucial element in the development of

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<v Speaker 2>the drug culture in Australia. The American R and R

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<v Speaker 2>boys brought drugs back and it's sort of burgeoned after that,

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<v Speaker 2>and King's Cross was the place where everyone went, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was just there were so many clubs. You could

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<v Speaker 2>go to some clubs and you could get your weed.

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<v Speaker 2>You you can go to other clubs to get your

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<v Speaker 2>meth or your coke. There was a little well, I

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<v Speaker 2>suppose I don't know whether I should name the person

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<v Speaker 2>who was responsible. He's done his fifteen years, but he

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<v Speaker 2>was well known and he was represented in Underbelly. But

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<v Speaker 2>he added a little shoot where he It was like

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<v Speaker 2>a little service Winday, I don't get what you wanted,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was really really quite straight and back in

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<v Speaker 2>the day you had people who were in and around

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<v Speaker 2>the cross of Imember Sweethearts Cafe. It's famous from a

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<v Speaker 2>Jimmy Barnes song, Breakfast Sweethearts. I ate breakfast at Sweetheart's

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<v Speaker 2>quite a few times after going in at four o'clock

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning or two o'clock in the morning to

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<v Speaker 2>King's Cross police station to advise clients.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, thew we're up now, we may as well have breakfast.

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<v Speaker 2>But it was interesting times garrier because of the nature

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<v Speaker 2>of the location. It was just one of those places

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<v Speaker 2>at that particular time where from a person who didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have to be involved in the crime, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>was absolutely amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you do get then you're fortunate. And

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<v Speaker 1>I found that in policing, in the work that I did,

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<v Speaker 1>you get to look in to a world that you

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to be part of You don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>be fully embedded in it. But you get to see

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on and get an understanding of it. Because

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<v Speaker 1>Louis Bay you had dealings with him. Did you act

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<v Speaker 1>for him or just came across?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I acted for Louis, and then I had Then

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<v Speaker 2>I had cause not to want anything else to do

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<v Speaker 2>with Louis. At one stage I was in some respects

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<v Speaker 2>I was naive in relation to the way I thought

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<v Speaker 2>I handled my relationship with him. But I can say

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<v Speaker 2>that on a number of occasions Louis said, I want

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<v Speaker 2>you to come and have a Chinese lunch out at

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<v Speaker 2>Parramatta with me. Well, I've turned up and I'm sitting

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<v Speaker 2>at a table with Roger.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Roger Rogerson, the former New South Wales police officer,

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<v Speaker 1>corrupt police officer and convicted murderer.

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<v Speaker 2>Lanny McPherson, a couple of other people who wait, a

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<v Speaker 2>good crew, you've got the game, and Lurry and Sorry

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<v Speaker 2>and Louis. And it was a bit of an education.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's funny, isn't it. Well it's not funny,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's how you get indoctrinated into that world, like

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<v Speaker 1>come and have a lunch and then oh, well, yeah

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<v Speaker 1>I've spoken to that person, and then the next thing,

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<v Speaker 1>Roger's on the phone. I want you to do a

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<v Speaker 1>favor for me, and you can get caught up in

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<v Speaker 1>that world, can't you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I never had anything to do with Roger. Wilst

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<v Speaker 2>it was a detective. He was actually doing wrought iron

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<v Speaker 2>and putting rowed iron in gold and jar you know,

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<v Speaker 2>different bars and things, which is quite it looks.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he was doing some other stuff too, but.

0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well and he didn't learn from his first job.

0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.200
<v Speaker 1>His last one was a classic was yeah.

0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.600
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, anyone who can think they could walk around

0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.959
<v Speaker 2>a city the size of Sydney, you'll not be photographed

0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:15.440
<v Speaker 2>a thousand times. He's got another thing.

0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.920
<v Speaker 1>And look, Roger was from a police point of view,

0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.880
<v Speaker 1>and like my early days in policing, I remember being

0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 1>in the witness boxes. I was in the arm hole

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 1>up squad in the nineties. Again in the witness box.

0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.720
<v Speaker 1>I've never met Roger, but being cross examined. So you're

0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:33.439
<v Speaker 1>in the arm toole up squad, aren't you. I don't

0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 1>think it was you. Okay, you're in the arm hole

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.040
<v Speaker 1>up squad, aren't you? Yes, and so you're you're the

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 1>tough guys. You bash them, you lower them, you do this.

0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 1>Roger Rogerson's your hero. And that was a narrative because

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 1>he put a stain on all of us, and not

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>just Roger, there was other people. But that's world that

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.679
<v Speaker 1>you're in. Before the Royal Commission exposed it all and

0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.760
<v Speaker 1>people were accountable, it was a dangerous, dangerous place to operate,

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:01.200
<v Speaker 1>wasn't it.

0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I never felt it was dangerous, right, Okay? As I said,

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.240
<v Speaker 2>and I've said this to others, the only person who

0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I really thought uncomfortable with was Lenny was with with

0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Netdie Smith.

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what what was it about that?

0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I just think that it was Nettie's persona, his demeanor.

0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>He was sort of this brooding character and just felt

0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:23.720
<v Speaker 2>slightly uncomfortable with him.

0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, even look for the crimes and yeah he's

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>passed away, we can we can talk openly. But the

0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.320
<v Speaker 1>the crimes that he was involved in, and he sounded

0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 1>like a grub in some of the things that he

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.680
<v Speaker 1>did that you know, he had that persona of being

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 1>a gangster, but there was that other side side to him.

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:50.400
<v Speaker 2>He was psychopathical, didn't seem to have any regard for

0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 2>human like now that others may say differently.

0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 1>I take on board that that's your impression.

0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.840
<v Speaker 2>But that's but I and I was never exposed to

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.080
<v Speaker 2>his really really outside but I just felt there was

0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:07.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of this brooding presence there that was difficult.

0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting you identify him of all the people you've

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.400
<v Speaker 1>dealt with, and you've come across a wide range of

0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.400
<v Speaker 1>let's call them villains or colorful identities, that he was

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 1>one that you got that got that sense from.

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, when you think of a person who I had

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.720
<v Speaker 2>some regard for, and that's Abbot Henry Graham. Abbot Henry.

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.240
<v Speaker 1>He's a former gangster that used to run with Neddie

0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Smith during the Roger Rogerson era.

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Graham is the nicest flake and the funniest blake you're made.

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.640
<v Speaker 2>And to put him in the same gang as Neddie,

0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>I think he was ran in that sort of circle.

0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.560
<v Speaker 2>He just too totally different type of people.

0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, I know Graham pretty pretty well now and he's

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.880
<v Speaker 1>been on the podcast and I've caught up with him

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 1>a bit. When you say it's a nice blake, I

0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 1>grew up in the same area and they used to

0:14:55.480 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 1>terrorize people were young, changed Yeah, he's changed, let's say.

0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I know what you're saying. Very personal saw

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.680
<v Speaker 1>the blake. You can sit down and speak to Graham

0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and have a laugh, have a drink, and yeah.

0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 2>You see, there's the difference between police officers and criminal lawyers.

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.440
<v Speaker 2>When you're dealing with the same people, they have a

0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 2>totally different attitude to you than they do to me. Yeah,

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 2>and so you see them from different perspectives.

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Gary, Well, that's true, that's true. What you had interesting

0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.160
<v Speaker 1>when you were dealing with Louis Baya that he had

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 1>a young.

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Driver that was Johnny Ibrahim.

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Did you identify john as someone that was going to

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>rise to the level he did?

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>No, No, I didn't recognize it, but having observed it

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.800
<v Speaker 2>over the many years, I have no doubt that he

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>was always going to do well for himself. Yeah. John

0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 2>reads situation as well, and he was. I think he

0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.720
<v Speaker 2>found himself in the right place at the right time,

0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.479
<v Speaker 2>with the rights skills to be able to gain from

0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:04.720
<v Speaker 2>his good luck.

0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, he's where he's at now, He's many his

0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 1>way through, so he must have something going for him.

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. He's sort of that old expression about laying down

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 2>with dogs and getting up with fleas is relevant to

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.560
<v Speaker 2>all of us. But John's been able to deal with

0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 2>that aspect of his life in a reasonable sort of way,

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.480
<v Speaker 2>so that he's come out relatively unscathed.

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.120
<v Speaker 1>Charlie Staunton, you would have had dealings with Charlie Staunton,

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.040
<v Speaker 1>greg He was a former New South Wales police officer

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>and he got into some trouble ended up leaving the police,

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.880
<v Speaker 1>so I think he became a private investigator and did

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 1>a bit of wheeling and dealing around King's Cross Again.

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking at all the people we've had on the podcast,

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.200
<v Speaker 1>but that's what happens when you've been going for a

0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:00.360
<v Speaker 1>few years. But I've got to say, if Charlie didn't exists,

0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.680
<v Speaker 1>you'd have to invent him quite the way he's lived

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:04.200
<v Speaker 1>his life.

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 2>One of Well's lovable rogues.

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what what's your what's your take on Charlie? Because

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:10.879
<v Speaker 1>I had to laugh at some of the things that

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 1>he got up to.

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.720
<v Speaker 2>He's got up to so much. One book's not enough

0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 2>for Charlie in terms of what he's been through. But

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Charlie is is is a rogue to start with, and

0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.120
<v Speaker 2>we all love him. We don't always want to see

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 2>him because he's gonna he's going to put the pinch

0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.240
<v Speaker 2>on us. But when he comes you can always have

0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 2>a laugh and you always know what you're getting with Charlie.

0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:36.679
<v Speaker 2>He's pretty upfront.

0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I found that with him in my dealings with him,

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.560
<v Speaker 1>and I've caught up with him and bumped into him

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:48.600
<v Speaker 1>at certain certain places, and yeah, he's a character, and like,

0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.760
<v Speaker 1>we're not condoning crime. We've sit here, we'll put that

0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 1>out there on things. But back in those days there

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.040
<v Speaker 1>were larger than life characters, weren't they. And I I

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 1>don't know. And you mentioned in part one and I

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.639
<v Speaker 1>reflected on it during the break about the way the

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 1>gangsters go about their business now and look at me

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.720
<v Speaker 1>type attitude. It has changed, hasn't it.

0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, everyone wants to know what you're doing, starting off

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.879
<v Speaker 2>with what you had at the last restaurant you were at,

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.560
<v Speaker 2>who you're laying by the swimming pool with now, and

0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:24.240
<v Speaker 2>who you're killing.

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Don't you take those of your breakfast each morning?

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Don't face it to everyone. It's going to be the

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:30.719
<v Speaker 2>same every morning, I'm afraid.

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.320
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I know what you're saying. Interesting, if we're

0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.879
<v Speaker 1>talking the way things change, is it harder to be

0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.760
<v Speaker 1>a crook now than it would be let's say twenty

0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.680
<v Speaker 1>thirty years ago, with all the technology that's changed.

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Do you think it's harder. Certainly harder. But if you're

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.720
<v Speaker 2>switched on crook and you know how to run under

0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>the radar, I think that you are likely to last

0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.719
<v Speaker 2>a lot longer than these guys who have no regard

0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.240
<v Speaker 2>to the fact that everything we do in public is scrutinized,

0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 2>either by virtue of public cameras or private cameras. Everyone's

0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:11.879
<v Speaker 2>running around with a camera to take photos of you

0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.920
<v Speaker 2>these days. Your likelihood of your telephone calls being monitored

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.840
<v Speaker 2>is real. So if you're going to do anything, you've

0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.280
<v Speaker 2>better to do it face to face because telephones aren't

0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 2>safe and people don't wake up to that. It keeps

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:26.800
<v Speaker 2>me in business.

0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think you've got a phone on you like

0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.560
<v Speaker 1>just the tracking, the ability, and I look at from

0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.160
<v Speaker 1>an investigative point of view, if there was a murder. Yeah,

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 1>pre mobile phone days, it was you check who you

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.040
<v Speaker 1>phoned on your landline, what public phones were in the

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 1>area of fingerprints. Look at the technology available now, see

0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:52.800
<v Speaker 1>we could track you from the time you left your

0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.720
<v Speaker 1>office in the city to come here and your movements

0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:01.080
<v Speaker 1>and basically everything you've done it so much harder.

0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.800
<v Speaker 2>I think I'm involved in a murder case at the moment,

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 2>my client, I think will be I've negotiated him out

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>of that aspect of the case or his accessorial involvement

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.760
<v Speaker 2>in the case. But when you looked at the evidence,

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 2>the police were able to track the vehicle that the

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.119
<v Speaker 2>shooters or the assassins if I can call them, that

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.240
<v Speaker 2>used from the time it was stolen until the time

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.840
<v Speaker 2>it was burnt, and in relation to my client who

0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.399
<v Speaker 2>was involved in picking them up, exactly where his vehicle

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.120
<v Speaker 2>went as well, because you can't drive around anything that's

0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.280
<v Speaker 2>you'd regard as a main arterial road or any arterial

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:47.959
<v Speaker 2>road without being photographed.

0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a reality of it, isn't well talking about technology,

0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.720
<v Speaker 1>And I understand that there's some appeals going through court

0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.040
<v Speaker 1>or currently, so if you can't talk too much about it,

0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 1>but just your take on that you involved in that

0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:03.960
<v Speaker 1>at all.

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I am involved in that from three different aspects. I've

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.560
<v Speaker 2>got an appeal currently running in relation to a couple

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.359
<v Speaker 2>of clients who pleaded guilty and got rewarded for what

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.080
<v Speaker 2>we call facilitating the course of justice, but that's under

0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:20.879
<v Speaker 2>appeal by the ground as to the inadequacy of the penalties.

0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.159
<v Speaker 2>Of opinion that if you want to get people to

0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.600
<v Speaker 2>plead guilty, you've got to show them that it's going

0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.800
<v Speaker 2>to be worthwhile, because at the end of the day,

0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.160
<v Speaker 2>they get locked up, cost one hundred and fifty thousand

0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.080
<v Speaker 2>dollars per prisoner to keep them in jail, and in

0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 2>some respects they don't come out any better than what

0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 2>they went in. So you've got to change the system

0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.159
<v Speaker 2>in that regard. I'm involved with others who are waiting

0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.320
<v Speaker 2>on the outcome of the High Court appeal, and it's

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:46.879
<v Speaker 2>a very interesting aspect picture.

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, and I probably should have because you and I

0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.280
<v Speaker 1>know what we're talking about. But that was the sting

0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 1>operation that started in America but also used in law

0:21:58.520 --> 0:21:59.679
<v Speaker 1>enforcement over here.

0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>Operation Inside and cuphibially didn't know the creator or the

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.560
<v Speaker 2>person who organized the creation of what we call the

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.480
<v Speaker 2>phantom Secure Phones, which is one of the encrypted phanes

0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:17.160
<v Speaker 2>that was used some time ago. He was arrested by

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:22.119
<v Speaker 2>the police and charged with racketeering offenses, which are their

0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.840
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy offenses in relation to providing telephones to the Sinaloa cartel.

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.760
<v Speaker 2>So by doing that he was facilitating their ability to

0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 2>communicate large drug trafficking enterprises. And he was threatened with

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.680
<v Speaker 2>thirty years in jail and was given the option of

0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.280
<v Speaker 2>doing the thirty years or assisting the police and getting

0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.320
<v Speaker 2>a lesser sentence. Well, he took the latter, and whilst

0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:55.040
<v Speaker 2>that was in train, he got one of his technicians,

0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:00.120
<v Speaker 2>at the request of the police, to put together the plat.

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:05.159
<v Speaker 1>For that and people involved in criminal enterprise or I

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.120
<v Speaker 1>won't say that as a defense so you object, your

0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:15.440
<v Speaker 1>honor great as a podcast listener, but that they were

0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.720
<v Speaker 1>passed out to people that may or may not have

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.920
<v Speaker 1>been involved in criminal activities, and the police were monitoring

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.440
<v Speaker 1>the cause on phones that the people that had them

0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.280
<v Speaker 1>felt they were encrypted and safe, that there's no way

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.440
<v Speaker 1>that law enforcement could monitor what was going on. Is that?

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 2>Well? The way the way that worked was that like

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 2>you or I would send a text and I was

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:41.320
<v Speaker 2>intending it to go from me to you, I would

0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.480
<v Speaker 2>type in the text. That text would then be copied

0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.399
<v Speaker 2>within the platform and when when when the text text

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:55.200
<v Speaker 2>press send, the copy would immediately go through a system

0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:59.119
<v Speaker 2>called called bots eyebots to the police who were monitoring it,

0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and there were several agencies that were doing so, and

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:03.639
<v Speaker 2>there was some suggestion that it had gone through an

0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 2>overseas country like Romania, I think, or somewhere like that.

0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:13.240
<v Speaker 2>It was quite kite of complicated. But the South Australian

0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court, in a case involving I think a conspiracy

0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:20.359
<v Speaker 2>that murder, dealt with the matter first and Justice Kimber

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.600
<v Speaker 2>there decided that it was admissible because it didn't contravene

0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.479
<v Speaker 2>the definition of what an actual intercept was because of

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>when you press sent. It didn't go to the receiver,

0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.320
<v Speaker 2>it went to the police and it was very technically

0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:43.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's a very very simplistic explanation. But the accused

0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:47.400
<v Speaker 2>then appealed. It went to a three court bench who

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.119
<v Speaker 2>upheld Judge Justice Kimber's decision that it wasn't an intercept,

0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:55.120
<v Speaker 2>and now it's gone to the High Court. In the meantime,

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Mark Drayfus, our Attorney General, decided that he'd put through

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:05.600
<v Speaker 2>legislation and declaring that that particular function that platform, what

0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:09.800
<v Speaker 2>at the anom phone did was not an intercept right

0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:15.760
<v Speaker 2>and that's created a possible constitutional problem because it raises

0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.240
<v Speaker 2>the separation of powers and what the courts are there

0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:20.399
<v Speaker 2>to do, and what the High Court is there to

0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.280
<v Speaker 2>do to interpret the laws as they apply and the

0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:27.000
<v Speaker 2>definitions as they apply. An interesting question which will now

0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>arise is has the Attorney General usurped the functions of

0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:36.800
<v Speaker 2>the court and basically denied the operation of the separation

0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:39.600
<v Speaker 2>of powers of which there are three. That Parliament makes laws,

0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.800
<v Speaker 2>the Executive enforces the laws, and the judiciary interprets the laws.

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Okay, is going to be interesting. So when we looking

0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:50.400
<v Speaker 1>at decision coming back about.

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.480
<v Speaker 2>That, we're looking at it. I think it'll probably get

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 2>to the High Court between June and August sometimes.

0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:59.440
<v Speaker 1>And there's a lot of people because there's some large

0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:02.919
<v Speaker 1>numbers of people that were charged flowing on from that,

0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:04.560
<v Speaker 1>so high stakes.

0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.280
<v Speaker 2>A lot of political pressure out there. I think I'm

0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:07.960
<v Speaker 2>being practical.

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would imagine it's well, get on.

0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:16.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a really interesting It is.

0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:19.640
<v Speaker 1>Interesting because if you're making legislation and make it, well,

0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:24.040
<v Speaker 1>it's retrospective, isn't it. It's capturing something from the past.

0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:27.000
<v Speaker 2>And you'd agree. The interesting part about well, your former

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 2>job and my current job is that it's it's all

0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:34.560
<v Speaker 2>about how society works. From the underbelly to the very top.

0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting. I've got to say, from an ex

0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:42.520
<v Speaker 1>detectives point of view, I thought it was a great

0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 1>plan when I heard about it. I'm thinking, damn it, well,

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't I think about something like that that's simplistic in

0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:54.240
<v Speaker 1>the planning but very complicated in the actual getting it

0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:57.960
<v Speaker 1>up and running. And I'm surprised. I'm surprised. And I

0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:00.439
<v Speaker 1>can talk like this because I'm not invold them, but

0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm surprised it didn't get out like there would have

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:04.960
<v Speaker 1>been a lot of pot.

0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:07.320
<v Speaker 2>You started to get out because someone realized there was

0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>a leak at the end of it, and that was

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:12.000
<v Speaker 2>going straight to the police. But it's my turn to object.

0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 2>It's my turn to object in criminal law. And I

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:18.600
<v Speaker 2>think in life, there's a saying which a lot of

0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:21.680
<v Speaker 2>people don't get better, that ninety nine guilty men go

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:27.000
<v Speaker 2>free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted. And it's

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:31.000
<v Speaker 2>the chance of using these mechanisms, these platforms, these things,

0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:36.919
<v Speaker 2>or creating a case against a person wrongly that puts

0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:39.560
<v Speaker 2>in a position where people are wrongly convicted. And I

0:27:40.280 --> 0:27:42.840
<v Speaker 2>say to people who say this to me, do you

0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>really care about these people and how can you act

0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:48.080
<v Speaker 2>for criminals? It's all this sort of stuff, and I say, well,

0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:51.399
<v Speaker 2>hang on a sec We've got a system that should

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:55.960
<v Speaker 2>be fair, should be reasonable, and shouldn't it shouldn't be

0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:58.680
<v Speaker 2>adam and even giving them the apple again to commit

0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:02.760
<v Speaker 2>a mortal sin because you might get dragging in an

0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:05.399
<v Speaker 2>innocent person and that innocent What I say, do you

0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 2>want your son to be that innocent person and do

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:08.800
<v Speaker 2>twenty years? Yeah?

0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:12.399
<v Speaker 1>Look, and you can't argue with that. Let's saying I

0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:14.199
<v Speaker 1>might have been the old days. I'm not going to.

0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:17.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to now. But yeah, I do understand

0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:19.720
<v Speaker 1>what you're saying, and there needs to be checks and

0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:26.480
<v Speaker 1>balances exactly and to make the system work. But yeah,

0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:29.440
<v Speaker 1>that's going to be fascinating how that comes across, because

0:28:29.440 --> 0:28:32.280
<v Speaker 1>this is a real test is this is the High Court,

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.080
<v Speaker 1>This is making the big decisions, and.

0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 2>It's not just lawyers being nerdy. It really has an impact.

0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 1>Look, I in regards and I always make comments about

0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:47.640
<v Speaker 1>lawyers and slices and whatnot. I do understand the need

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 1>for proper defense, and I take issue with some people

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 1>that I think cross the line, as you would take

0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:56.760
<v Speaker 1>issue with where you think police have cross across the line.

0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 1>I've seen come up against some lawyers. I just think

0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 1>that that's stooping too what they've done there. And it

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:07.120
<v Speaker 1>might be just the way that they're they're cross examining

0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:10.160
<v Speaker 1>someone or the way that they're playing, but we do

0:29:10.280 --> 0:29:12.040
<v Speaker 1>need the checks and balances, so I think we're on

0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:16.120
<v Speaker 1>a grance there. I have now seen it, and I

0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 1>keep saying it because it did change my perspective, like

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 1>having the full way that the state coming after you.

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:24.400
<v Speaker 1>And I know when I was going to court, I

0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:27.440
<v Speaker 1>was thinking, well, that the worst that's going to happen

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.000
<v Speaker 1>to me, you know, I might get a fine or

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:33.280
<v Speaker 1>something like that. I can't imagine the impact that would

0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:36.480
<v Speaker 1>have on you. If the consequences were when this jury

0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.000
<v Speaker 1>comes back or this judge comes back, that could dictate

0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:40.360
<v Speaker 1>the rest of your life.

0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Like its high stakes, but the Lord doesn't always work

0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 2>in favor of the accused. It also works in favor

0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 2>of people down the track in terms of how evidence

0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:56.080
<v Speaker 2>is considered and recrafted. For instance, in the Hey Dad

0:29:56.120 --> 0:30:01.320
<v Speaker 2>case where the Hughes was charged with there's a multiplicity

0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>of terrible child sexual asside offenses that changed the tendency law,

0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>so that a lot more material can come in. Now,

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:12.800
<v Speaker 2>if you've got if you've got a tendency to do,

0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 2>then that can be established. So that's in favor of

0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:19.440
<v Speaker 2>the person who's saying that. Those people who say, well, oh,

0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 2>but he did this and he did that, why wasn't

0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:22.840
<v Speaker 2>that raised, Well, now things.

0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Like that, it can be raised.

0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:25.720
<v Speaker 2>It's called tendency.

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:30.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, I was involved through campaigning with the Bearable

0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:34.320
<v Speaker 1>community on the double jeopardy legislation. It hasn't changed the

0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:38.120
<v Speaker 1>changed the landscape, and I don't think there's any I

0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 1>don't think there's been a situation where someone's being convicted.

0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 1>And what I'm talking about there is that if someone

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 1>was acquitted of a crime, they couldn't be retried until

0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:50.440
<v Speaker 1>the double jeopardy legislation was changed. Now fresh and compelling

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 1>the evidence and that and that's in the interests of justice.

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:56.720
<v Speaker 1>The fact that sitting there, I think is a good

0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.320
<v Speaker 1>thing because I would hate to have someone and what

0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:02.400
<v Speaker 1>could have been someone that acquitted of a murder could

0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:03.880
<v Speaker 1>walk out of court and go, well, I got a

0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 1>way of that and we could never recharge. So the

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.200
<v Speaker 1>fact that the legislation is sitting there hasn't been implemented.

0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:12.520
<v Speaker 1>I think is a good thing. But I've always been

0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:16.080
<v Speaker 1>on about legislation or the justice system, and I get

0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:18.920
<v Speaker 1>your thoughts on it. A justice system is set up

0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:23.880
<v Speaker 1>to serve the community. That's therefore, and if adjustments have

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:27.320
<v Speaker 1>got it, if it's not serving the community, legislation needs

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.680
<v Speaker 1>to be changed. Are you an advocate for changing legislation

0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 1>where it needs to be changed or is it more

0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 1>old school? Now we've been doing this for two hundred years,

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:37.440
<v Speaker 1>white change, No.

0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 2>No, I hear what you say, and what I don't

0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:43.560
<v Speaker 2>like is knee jerk. Yeah, let's just live changed where

0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:47.840
<v Speaker 2>you get change for the sake of satisfying some particular

0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>publicity agenda, agenda, and then you end up with victims

0:31:56.120 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 2>of that agenda who are wrongly convicted or wrongly accused,

0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:06.959
<v Speaker 2>and we find that the law is then used to

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:10.040
<v Speaker 2>assist politicians in their electoral cycle.

0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's you talk about changing the law agendas and

0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:19.840
<v Speaker 1>the media interests and all that. The bail laws on

0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 1>youth crime and baiol laws. I know there's been a

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.280
<v Speaker 1>lot of talk about that, but I think you articulate

0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:30.360
<v Speaker 1>very well that quite often it's changed for a political agenda,

0:32:30.440 --> 0:32:34.320
<v Speaker 1>and it doesn't always work, and innocent people can be

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:34.960
<v Speaker 1>caught up in it.

0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's because we live in a reactive rather than

0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:41.680
<v Speaker 2>proactive society. We're reacting to what we see as being

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:47.960
<v Speaker 2>a problem, and we're chastising and punishing those who are

0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:52.240
<v Speaker 2>involved in perpetrating those problems. But we're not going back

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:55.120
<v Speaker 2>in the way that we were talking about how jails

0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:58.680
<v Speaker 2>are changing Gary and saying, how can we stop young

0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:02.600
<v Speaker 2>Indigenous kids from running right in our springs? How can

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:04.960
<v Speaker 2>we stop them before they leave home to go and

0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:08.160
<v Speaker 2>run right? And how can we stop kids in Sydney

0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:11.120
<v Speaker 2>or in Melbourne, and then the poorer parts going out

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:13.760
<v Speaker 2>and creating habit and getting into postcode gangs or getting

0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>into whatever it is. We've got to look at those

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 2>aspects and we've got to put our resources into stopping

0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:20.280
<v Speaker 2>crime before it starts.

0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:25.320
<v Speaker 1>Diversionary plans you talked about keeping someone in custody come

0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:28.959
<v Speaker 1>across one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>keep a person in custody when you look at the

0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:36.680
<v Speaker 1>expense that is spent. There had Tim Watson Monroe, a

0:33:36.760 --> 0:33:39.560
<v Speaker 1>criminal psychologist, on them. He made the point that for

0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, you could have each

0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:46.239
<v Speaker 1>inmate with their own personal psychologists looking after them to

0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.120
<v Speaker 1>keep them on the straight and narrow. It's a huge amount,

0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:52.560
<v Speaker 1>and I know there are people that we need to

0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:55.960
<v Speaker 1>protect society from. I've got no problems, and there needs

0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:58.040
<v Speaker 1>to be deterrens, there needs to be punishments. All the

0:33:58.040 --> 0:34:02.000
<v Speaker 1>things that you talked about get taken into with sentencing.

0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Tim being a psychologist, would say that I might say,

0:34:05.480 --> 0:34:07.400
<v Speaker 2>spend one hundred and fifty thousand. Not a good lawyer.

0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:13.080
<v Speaker 1>And look, Greg, we've got to be on us here.

0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:15.839
<v Speaker 1>If we clear up, if we solve all the solutions

0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 1>of crime, you're going to be out of business.

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:19.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's going to happen, Gary Ott. But

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>I think we're entitled as members of a great democracy

0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.399
<v Speaker 2>to have a system that's fair and that's reasonable and

0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:32.320
<v Speaker 2>we get it right as many times as is possible

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 2>within a fallible system. And all systems are fallible. But

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:36.200
<v Speaker 2>I think we do.

0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:42.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay here, Okay, let's talk other clients that you've had

0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 1>and if I mentioned someone and you're not comfortable talking

0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:49.560
<v Speaker 1>about it, but got a lot of media publicity, so

0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:52.960
<v Speaker 1>we're not talking out of the school. But John Abraham's girlfriend,

0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Budge, that was charged with the possession of the firearm.

0:34:56.560 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, decent, lovely girl, Sarah. I've got a lot of

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:06.600
<v Speaker 2>time for Sarah Budge and now she's John's wife, A

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:10.920
<v Speaker 2>really really decent gale. As you might say, that was

0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:14.359
<v Speaker 2>an interesting case. I was part of a really really

0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 2>good team of lawyers and had a fair jury who

0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:20.680
<v Speaker 2>came back with the right decision.

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, and that people haven't heard about that there

0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:28.719
<v Speaker 1>was a firearm found found at the premises and it

0:35:28.760 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 1>was what was the actual charge.

0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:35.360
<v Speaker 2>It was The charge was possession of an unlicensed pistol,

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:39.280
<v Speaker 2>which I think can carry up to fourteen years in jail.

0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:43.440
<v Speaker 2>It's a guns are something we take seriously in our

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:47.680
<v Speaker 2>community and rightly so, as you'd recall and you'd agree

0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:54.000
<v Speaker 2>with that, And it was the prosecution couldn't establish that

0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:55.719
<v Speaker 2>she had knowledge that was there or even put it

0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>there on you, and given that other people had access

0:35:58.680 --> 0:36:01.440
<v Speaker 2>to her apartment, I thought that was the right decision.

0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:05.439
<v Speaker 1>An element of doubt, of doubt there absolutely Another high

0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:09.920
<v Speaker 1>profile person that you've represented was Scott Miller, the former

0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:12.960
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's a sad case. And I know

0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:18.239
<v Speaker 1>sentencing you addressing the issues that created that situation. For

0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:21.000
<v Speaker 1>those that don't know, Scott Miller, he was a silver

0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:26.840
<v Speaker 1>medalist at the Olympics, a swimmer and got involved in drugs.

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:30.239
<v Speaker 2>You should when you say silver medalist, you've got to

0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:32.440
<v Speaker 2>put that in context. Garat, he should have been the

0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 2>gold medalist. He was the fastest butterfly swimmer on top

0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:38.400
<v Speaker 2>of the water. Now, if anyone knows anything about swimming,

0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:40.719
<v Speaker 2>and you dive into a twenty five meter peol or

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:43.320
<v Speaker 2>a fifty meter pool, you go fifteen meters and you

0:36:43.400 --> 0:36:45.080
<v Speaker 2>look up and there's all these flags. There's a big

0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:48.200
<v Speaker 2>string of flags across. You've got to be surfaced by them.

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:54.080
<v Speaker 2>His nemesis was a guy called Dennis Pankrotov, a Russian,

0:36:55.160 --> 0:37:00.440
<v Speaker 2>bloody Russians again, yeah, absolutely yeah, And it was invading

0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:05.400
<v Speaker 2>the swimming pool and he was spending probably sixty percent

0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 2>of the time that he swamm the butterfly under the

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:10.920
<v Speaker 2>water doing a dolphin kick, So it wasn't butterfly at all.

0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:14.000
<v Speaker 2>But strangely enough, you can swim faster underwater than you

0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:16.080
<v Speaker 2>can by breaking the surface on top of the water.

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:21.799
<v Speaker 2>And he beat. He came up probably a body length

0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 2>in front of Scott in the nineteen six Olympics and

0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:30.640
<v Speaker 2>he beat Scott to the wall by a bee's knees.

0:37:31.120 --> 0:37:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, I didn't think. I didn't think we're going

0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:35.960
<v Speaker 1>to dissect the and Scotty.

0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Then they then changed the rules after that, and so

0:37:39.120 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>Scott's had that you know is an also rad you

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:44.120
<v Speaker 2>don't win the gold.

0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's yeah, okay, I didn't realize the backstory to it. Okay,

0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:50.759
<v Speaker 1>so you've gone in depth there.

0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:53.600
<v Speaker 2>And then he got injured coming up to the Sydney Olympics,

0:37:53.600 --> 0:37:57.480
<v Speaker 2>which was which was every every sportsman's dream who was

0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:00.960
<v Speaker 2>an Olympic class at sporting events, missed out on that,

0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:03.360
<v Speaker 2>tried to come back for two o four and injuries

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.960
<v Speaker 2>put him out, but then found himself, like a lot

0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:11.160
<v Speaker 2>of swimmers do, suffering what we call post elite sportsman's suppression.

0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:14.560
<v Speaker 2>You go and swimmings, you know, you follow the black line.

0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.279
<v Speaker 2>It's you're in your own world training and then you

0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.520
<v Speaker 2>come out of this bubble into the limelight. You're some

0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:23.840
<v Speaker 2>hero and you've got to deal with that with no

0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:26.400
<v Speaker 2>training for it. No, it's a sad story.

0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Is a sad story. How did you come to be

0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:31.560
<v Speaker 1>representing him?

0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:37.319
<v Speaker 2>Because just through associations and through well actually through his

0:38:37.360 --> 0:38:44.279
<v Speaker 2>wife and through my associations with other people involved in

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:49.120
<v Speaker 2>swimming got to know got to know Scott and looked

0:38:49.160 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 2>after him.

0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:54.839
<v Speaker 1>You see a lot of elite sportsmen that have had

0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 1>the highs and then struggle after it. But yeah, it

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:01.480
<v Speaker 1>plays out in rugby league for a lot of different reasons,

0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:03.080
<v Speaker 1>but you see a lot that happened with a lot

0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:04.160
<v Speaker 1>of a lot of sportsmen.

0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I think rugby is a sort of different category. Yeah,

0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:12.279
<v Speaker 2>it's well in that it's young men weekly being involved

0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:18.960
<v Speaker 2>in this glamorous, high profile Adelatian type sport and you

0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.920
<v Speaker 2>know there's cocaine around, and there's good looking girls at

0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:24.840
<v Speaker 2>clubs and so forth, and it's not the sort of

0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 2>same sort of the isolation of a swimmer. And you

0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>look at a lot of our swimmers have had Lisal

0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Jones had problems and so you know Scotty wasn't is

0:39:41.640 --> 0:39:46.080
<v Speaker 2>not alone. He was just one that fell further than others.

0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:47.280
<v Speaker 2>As I said, it's a sad.

0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:52.239
<v Speaker 1>Story, and representing him, you're obviously the way that you

0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:56.320
<v Speaker 1>relay the story, you felt felt it personally the responsibility

0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:57.560
<v Speaker 1>of representing him.

0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:01.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, Yeah, people commit crime, but doesn't stop them

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:03.600
<v Speaker 2>from being human beings. And you can set the crime

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 2>aside and you've still got Sometimes you've got a really

0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.520
<v Speaker 2>decent human being there. He's made a lot of bad mistakes,

0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:13.320
<v Speaker 2>but you can't throw the good person out with the bathwater.

0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Another person that you've come across in your career, and

0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:21.400
<v Speaker 1>we're going back into the dark, well, the King's Cross.

0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:25.640
<v Speaker 1>But Sally Anne Huckstep who was by way of introduction,

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:31.640
<v Speaker 1>people probably heard her name, but Warren France, Warren lan

0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:36.040
<v Speaker 1>Franchi lanb Francie's girlfriend at the time that Tea was

0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:39.480
<v Speaker 1>shot and killed by Roger Rogerson and was sort of

0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:42.680
<v Speaker 1>considered she might have been an informant giving information, but

0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:44.600
<v Speaker 1>she ended up being murdered.

0:40:45.080 --> 0:40:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Sure, her body was found in one of the

0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Centennial Park lakes.

0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:51.279
<v Speaker 1>And she was at the time she was vocal in

0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.560
<v Speaker 1>speaking up about police corruption.

0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, she was speaking up to the extent that she

0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:02.960
<v Speaker 2>believed that Roger Rogerson had had killed Warren in cold blood.

0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:07.120
<v Speaker 2>And there's all sorts of different stories about that. Yeah,

0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:13.440
<v Speaker 2>and she was a victim of a time when collusion

0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:18.359
<v Speaker 2>I think between people in positions of relative power, either

0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:23.320
<v Speaker 2>from the criminal malieu or from the police mailieu, were

0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:24.560
<v Speaker 2>bound to catch up with.

0:41:24.960 --> 0:41:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and how did you find her as a person.

0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.400
<v Speaker 2>We didn't, I don't. I think we may have acted

0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:34.040
<v Speaker 2>for when I was in to practice out at Bondi

0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:36.279
<v Speaker 2>junction with one of my older partners in with our

0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:40.600
<v Speaker 2>deceased as well. We acted for just on my smartor things,

0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:44.480
<v Speaker 2>I think, but we got more caught up in in

0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that aspect of it because we were alleged to have

0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:51.440
<v Speaker 2>had her diaries in my in my office, and in

0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:56.200
<v Speaker 2>my office was then broken into and ow and we nothing, no,

0:41:56.800 --> 0:41:59.520
<v Speaker 2>nothing of value taken except there was a nice neatly

0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:02.560
<v Speaker 2>cut section of our roof.

0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Sorry break break this down. Just my detective minds thinking

0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:11.200
<v Speaker 1>hole it. So you the information was that you had

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Sally's diaries.

0:42:12.480 --> 0:42:14.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, that was a rumor that was out there and

0:42:14.320 --> 0:42:17.799
<v Speaker 2>that had come through another girlfriend of hers, for whom

0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:19.960
<v Speaker 2>we acted, and it was thought that that had been

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:22.000
<v Speaker 2>left in our in our care.

0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:24.840
<v Speaker 1>And that could be very damaging for certain people.

0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:27.960
<v Speaker 2>We didn't have it. We didn't have it safe. And

0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:29.960
<v Speaker 2>in fact that when people were playing with checks, they

0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:32.520
<v Speaker 2>were stuck in a jar. On the top of a

0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:34.600
<v Speaker 2>filing cabinet. Well, they were all still there, but there

0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 2>was a well precisely cut hole in our roof and

0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:41.279
<v Speaker 2>they got through the roof and through the ceiling, and

0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:45.280
<v Speaker 2>I think and there was clearly all our filing cabinets

0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:46.080
<v Speaker 2>had been rifled.

0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:49.840
<v Speaker 1>You can't. You can't make this stuff up. You can't

0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:53.960
<v Speaker 1>make this stuff up. Okay, I'm just. I'm just I

0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:57.320
<v Speaker 1>hadn't realized that. Just thinking about that. Okay, that's interesting.

0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:02.680
<v Speaker 1>The diaries. Wow, what do you think makes a good solicitor?

0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:04.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to I haven't forgotten about the saying that

0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:08.680
<v Speaker 1>you've ever met and I'll exclude myself from this question.

0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever met a good detective? But before I do,

0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:15.520
<v Speaker 1>what do you consider is the good traits of a

0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:16.920
<v Speaker 1>defense solictener?

0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Be a good listener, be compassionate and be prepared to

0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>look at the case from every available angle, and to

0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:32.400
<v Speaker 2>do your best by your client and be truthful to

0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:32.880
<v Speaker 2>your client.

0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:39.239
<v Speaker 1>Good advice. Did you have mentors throughout your career or

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:41.800
<v Speaker 1>people that you learned from.

0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:47.520
<v Speaker 2>I had different barristers who I worked with. I had

0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:50.919
<v Speaker 2>the benefit of working with some great lawyers and being

0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:53.879
<v Speaker 2>opposed by some great lawyers. A lot of them became

0:43:53.960 --> 0:43:58.960
<v Speaker 2>really good judges. And if you know, laws are really

0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:03.160
<v Speaker 2>rewarding place because you sort of feel like you're doing good,

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 2>you feel like you've not done and done. It can

0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:13.320
<v Speaker 2>be self critical too much sometimes, but now I generally

0:44:14.000 --> 0:44:17.920
<v Speaker 2>had the benefit of working with good barristers and with

0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:19.960
<v Speaker 2>people who were really, really smart.

0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.800
<v Speaker 1>Do you have have barristers that you Is it Forbes

0:44:23.880 --> 0:44:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Chambers that you engage with a lot of barristers from

0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Forbes Chambers?

0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I regard Forbes is probably the premier criminal chambers.

0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:34.600
<v Speaker 2>But across the board there.

0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I used to hate walking up there server brief Forbes Chambers.

0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:43.719
<v Speaker 2>But across the across the across the span of barristers.

0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Samuel Griffiths have got some very good barristers, and there's

0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:49.280
<v Speaker 2>some other chambers spread around.

0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.480
<v Speaker 1>And what's what's the working relationship with the solicitor and

0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:55.360
<v Speaker 1>the barrister, Like, what's the dynamic dynamics there.

0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've always regarded myself as anything but a bad carrier.

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I say jokingly, I'm anicat I'm anicating today which has

0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:05.839
<v Speaker 2>gone getting paid and not doing any of the work.

0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:10.759
<v Speaker 2>But I tell my clients that they're at a two horse race,

0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I says, as a prosecution, and there's us. I say,

0:45:14.640 --> 0:45:17.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm the trainer, the barrasses, the jockey, and you know

0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.759
<v Speaker 2>what you are. You're a horse, okay, So if you

0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:23.280
<v Speaker 2>don't run across the line first, you're in big trouble.

0:45:23.719 --> 0:45:26.680
<v Speaker 1>I haven't heard that description. Break that down again, Run

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:28.200
<v Speaker 1>it past me again, so I don't forget it.

0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I say, the solicitors, the trainer, the barrasses, the jockey,

0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.640
<v Speaker 2>but the client's the horse. It's a good analogy because

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:37.920
<v Speaker 2>if the horse doesn't run across the line first, the

0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:40.040
<v Speaker 2>jockey and the trainer walk away. They go home.

0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:47.239
<v Speaker 1>That's not a bad way of describing it. Policing have

0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:52.000
<v Speaker 1>you seen. You've been in the as a defense solicit

0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:55.480
<v Speaker 1>for forty years, so you've seen changes in police like

0:45:55.680 --> 0:45:58.320
<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't even recognize what policing was in the eighties,

0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:00.480
<v Speaker 1>the early eighties compared to one of these is Now,

0:46:01.200 --> 0:46:03.399
<v Speaker 1>what do you think the quality of investigations are?

0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Like? I think the quality of investigations has improved markedly.

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I think that's because I came into law on the

0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:16.360
<v Speaker 2>cusp of a change where we'd gone through that period

0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:20.279
<v Speaker 2>where there were suggestions of corruption and so forth, and

0:46:20.360 --> 0:46:23.799
<v Speaker 2>police were prepared to make up conversations that they'd had

0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:27.719
<v Speaker 2>with suspects, which we called verbals, in order to gain

0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:31.680
<v Speaker 2>a conviction. So they were walking working more on gut

0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:34.000
<v Speaker 2>instinct than they were on real hard work.

0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:36.799
<v Speaker 1>I think that's fair and say, and I think to.

0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:39.839
<v Speaker 2>The credit of the police force, that's greatly improved and

0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:42.440
<v Speaker 2>with the advance that we advances that we've had in

0:46:43.200 --> 0:46:47.040
<v Speaker 2>what I talked about earlier about forensic technologies, which is

0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:51.440
<v Speaker 2>listening devices and telephone intercepts, better surveillance, long range cameras

0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and long range and basically putting in the time to

0:46:56.840 --> 0:46:59.440
<v Speaker 2>act on where you start off with a suspicion and

0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:03.040
<v Speaker 2>then were your way through to look at how things

0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:07.600
<v Speaker 2>work and whether you've got something that's just a spinoff,

0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:10.359
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of the major busts that have been

0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:14.000
<v Speaker 2>achieved by police is by just looking at that spinoff.

0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Is there something here this person's met that person, We're

0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:17.600
<v Speaker 2>going to look at what he's doing.

0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:24.640
<v Speaker 1>It's definitely evolving and changing changing landscape for criminal investigation.

0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:27.680
<v Speaker 1>A good detechnic if you've come up against in your

0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:31.000
<v Speaker 1>career someone because there's been some ding dog battles in

0:47:31.000 --> 0:47:35.120
<v Speaker 1>the courts and over time, is there one that you

0:47:35.120 --> 0:47:38.279
<v Speaker 1>could say that you respected for the way he or

0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:39.799
<v Speaker 1>she went about their job.

0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, in terms of just dogged determination, i'd have to

0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:46.759
<v Speaker 2>talk about Justin Murray. I've actually got Justin in a

0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:49.279
<v Speaker 2>case now. But Justin was the officer in charge of

0:47:49.280 --> 0:47:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the investigations into the Armor Guard robberies across the pavement

0:47:54.280 --> 0:48:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Armorgard robberies. When I think Chubb an Armourguard security trucks

0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:06.160
<v Speaker 2>were being attacked as they stopped to fill up ATMs

0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:08.840
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. And I think overall seven at some

0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:12.240
<v Speaker 2>point one million or seven point six million dollars was

0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:13.720
<v Speaker 2>was stolen by the police.

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, I stule was I said, yeah, and go, okay,

0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:23.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going make sure we're recording this the alleged cross

0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:30.160
<v Speaker 1>highlight that trip. There's your headline in the paper. Okay.

0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:33.360
<v Speaker 2>I made the mistake in court last week this last

0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:36.680
<v Speaker 2>week of referring to one of my clients as as

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:40.320
<v Speaker 2>a graffiti artist. Well, the magistrate went ballistic and said

0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:44.120
<v Speaker 2>I said, said, and it criticized me for that. I

0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>was trying to get in. Well, I'll refrase that and

0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:49.640
<v Speaker 2>say he was an exponent, but it wasn't the police,

0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and we eventually won that case one hundred and sixty

0:48:54.200 --> 0:49:00.759
<v Speaker 2>one charges to nil, which was a great success justin

0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:03.400
<v Speaker 2>to his well, I won't say to his credit, but

0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:05.399
<v Speaker 2>he was so convinced of their guilt that he tracked

0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:07.120
<v Speaker 2>down everyone and got them all for something else.

0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, Well I like that type of dog inness.

0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:15.280
<v Speaker 2>That was reginess. I've met a lot of police officers,

0:49:15.280 --> 0:49:19.440
<v Speaker 2>but who now, being armed with the technology and the

0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:21.960
<v Speaker 2>ability to track crime, do an amazing job.

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, Well it takes the pressure off to a degree.

0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Is a police officer that you can rely on the

0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:31.960
<v Speaker 1>technology and that because before I won't say before, but

0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:33.680
<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of hard graft. You had to

0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:36.279
<v Speaker 1>get the statements and then you've got a brief that's

0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:40.359
<v Speaker 1>not Yeah, there would be I'm saying here just from

0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:42.920
<v Speaker 1>my thoughts, there seemed to be a lot more trials

0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:44.960
<v Speaker 1>because you didn't have that evidence. You didn't have the

0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:47.440
<v Speaker 1>technical evidence of the phone records or things that could

0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.120
<v Speaker 1>back it up. So it came down to witness testimony,

0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:53.640
<v Speaker 1>which you'd know and I'm sure you're sure you've exploited

0:49:53.840 --> 0:49:58.680
<v Speaker 1>in a fair way that eyewitness testimony is not always

0:49:58.480 --> 0:50:00.040
<v Speaker 1>that reliable.

0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Nor his memory. Yeah, and psychologists will tell you that

0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:08.000
<v Speaker 2>constructed memory can be really fallible. But it's then up

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:09.960
<v Speaker 2>to the jury to decide whether they believe it or not,

0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and that itself is a fallible system. We saw that

0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:15.239
<v Speaker 2>with George pell and a lot of people that have

0:50:15.320 --> 0:50:19.400
<v Speaker 2>their views on that. But knowing from my point of view,

0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:23.040
<v Speaker 2>looking at what the High Court said, you know, I

0:50:23.040 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>think the jury didn't make a mistake that other minds

0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>would differ. Also, having been seeing bishops come to Catholic

0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:31.120
<v Speaker 2>churches and know how many people they drag with them

0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:33.440
<v Speaker 2>and never were alone, I thought it was pretty difficult.

0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:35.799
<v Speaker 2>But you've got to look at the system and look

0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:39.200
<v Speaker 2>at the fallibilities and say, well, the police are getting

0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:43.240
<v Speaker 2>better tools these days to take suspicion to the point

0:50:43.239 --> 0:50:46.200
<v Speaker 2>of proof, and that's it. And even though I'm a

0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:49.360
<v Speaker 2>criminal defense lawyer, I'm a member of a society as well,

0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and in that respect, I expect prosecutors to do their

0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:54.279
<v Speaker 2>job properly. In his hard I don't expect to get

0:50:54.440 --> 0:50:57.000
<v Speaker 2>to cut me any slack because I'm paying them to

0:50:57.000 --> 0:50:59.959
<v Speaker 2>do their job. And so, yeah, police are getting better,

0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:01.800
<v Speaker 2>better resources and that's to our advantage.

0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:05.640
<v Speaker 1>What about the court system? Is there things that you

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:08.759
<v Speaker 1>think could be improved? And you said I think in

0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:12.040
<v Speaker 1>part one that you've believed the system where God is

0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:17.880
<v Speaker 1>as good as any other other system across the Well, yeah, I.

0:51:18.200 --> 0:51:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Think what needs to be improved in our court system

0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:27.240
<v Speaker 2>is not the system of the determination of guilt or

0:51:27.520 --> 0:51:31.200
<v Speaker 2>the application of court time. When you've got judges and

0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:36.799
<v Speaker 2>juries and magistrates actually doing the sentencing jobs or doing

0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the trial jobs. The problem we have got is we're

0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:42.719
<v Speaker 2>over burden with administrative stuff. I was in a court

0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:46.200
<v Speaker 2>the other day out of Campbelltown and the magistrate had

0:51:46.239 --> 0:51:49.040
<v Speaker 2>to deal with one hundred and fifty matters in this list,

0:51:49.719 --> 0:51:53.879
<v Speaker 2>and these were all serious matters, and the majority of

0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:55.880
<v Speaker 2>them gary were matters that could have been done by

0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.000
<v Speaker 2>our registrar. They were just adjourney matters because they weren't

0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:02.560
<v Speaker 2>ready to proceed. Now we're paying big money to have

0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:06.600
<v Speaker 2>a judicial officer sit there and do an administrative job,

0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:09.319
<v Speaker 2>and so there are ways and means of cleaning up

0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:13.200
<v Speaker 2>that system which would save money and I think expedite

0:52:13.200 --> 0:52:14.040
<v Speaker 2>the system as well.

0:52:14.440 --> 0:52:18.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I see what you're saying there, because the time

0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:20.719
<v Speaker 1>that appears to be wasted in court going through what

0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:22.000
<v Speaker 1>you've just described is.

0:52:22.160 --> 0:52:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's we call them mentions.

0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:29.399
<v Speaker 1>The mentions sit there what's the called on in at

0:52:29.719 --> 0:52:31.719
<v Speaker 1>down in center that wherever they have the mentions and

0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:33.600
<v Speaker 1>you've virtually got to fight your way in to get

0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:33.960
<v Speaker 1>in there.

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's the registrar's court four point four. But they're

0:52:37.480 --> 0:52:39.879
<v Speaker 2>get through the mentions really quickly, by about by eleven thirty,

0:52:39.880 --> 0:52:44.160
<v Speaker 2>it's all over and done with. But it's yeah, but

0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:46.719
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you've got to you've got in the custody courts,

0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:49.959
<v Speaker 2>it's all dealt with by a magistrate, and the magistrates

0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:53.239
<v Speaker 2>are basically just shuffling paper in the journey matters, and

0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:57.520
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you've you've got to go before a magistrate. Fortunately,

0:52:57.520 --> 0:52:59.200
<v Speaker 2>in the Supreme Court we have registrartions who do a

0:52:59.239 --> 0:53:01.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of that work. Less there's an issue that needs

0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:04.640
<v Speaker 2>determination by a judge which is just not shifting the

0:53:04.719 --> 0:53:07.320
<v Speaker 2>dates or saying this has got to be filed in time,

0:53:07.960 --> 0:53:10.000
<v Speaker 2>you're getting get referred to a judge. It doesn't happen

0:53:10.040 --> 0:53:12.280
<v Speaker 2>in the local courts and sometimes in the district courts.

0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:16.080
<v Speaker 1>What would you say when I throw this to you

0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:21.720
<v Speaker 1>that an inquisitorial system is better than adversarial system. Why

0:53:22.239 --> 0:53:27.399
<v Speaker 1>because you talked about going into the Royal Commission, which

0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:31.239
<v Speaker 1>is more of an inquisitorial type system in quest than

0:53:31.760 --> 0:53:34.600
<v Speaker 1>as compared to an adversarial system. Do you think there's

0:53:34.640 --> 0:53:38.319
<v Speaker 1>any value in leaning more towards an inquisitorial system rather

0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:41.520
<v Speaker 1>than adversarial system. Not.

0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:44.120
<v Speaker 2>While we are entitled to the right.

0:53:44.080 --> 0:53:47.759
<v Speaker 1>Silence, Okay, that's a stickler for it.

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and proof beyond reasonable doubt. And I think that's

0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:53.960
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to take away a person's liberty. And

0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:58.000
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about Jarles before. People don't understand is that

0:53:58.080 --> 0:54:00.319
<v Speaker 2>every day you and I can get up and we

0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:03.200
<v Speaker 2>have a choice as to what we do. Now, choices

0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:06.840
<v Speaker 2>are limited because life's repetitive, but we don't have to

0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:08.440
<v Speaker 2>go to work if we don't really want it. We

0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:11.320
<v Speaker 2>can take a sickie, we get our four weeks holiday.

0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:12.680
<v Speaker 2>At the end of the day, we can go and

0:54:12.719 --> 0:54:14.160
<v Speaker 2>have a beer with our mates. But if you'll get

0:54:14.200 --> 0:54:15.680
<v Speaker 2>up and you put on your green shorts and your

0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:17.880
<v Speaker 2>T shirt and you know exactly what you're going to

0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:19.040
<v Speaker 2>be doing for the rest of the day in the

0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.560
<v Speaker 2>next four or five or ten years, that's not liberty.

0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, and look, I agree with you, and to understand

0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.160
<v Speaker 1>the punishment. The punishment has been taken away from society

0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:32.600
<v Speaker 1>and it's not a nice place to be in prison.

0:54:32.680 --> 0:54:37.160
<v Speaker 1>And even the prisoners acknowledge that some people have to

0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:42.160
<v Speaker 1>being there. They're not saying that everyone, Yeah, we should

0:54:42.200 --> 0:54:44.560
<v Speaker 1>open the jail gates. They know that people should be

0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:48.239
<v Speaker 1>in there. What about the jury system. I've had a

0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:52.200
<v Speaker 1>problem sometimes throughout my career where there's a voir the

0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:55.680
<v Speaker 1>year and the jury is excluded because there's evidence that

0:54:57.280 --> 0:55:00.680
<v Speaker 1>might be prejudicial if the jury hears that. The problem

0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I have is that we select the jury that there

0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:07.280
<v Speaker 1>he is to judge the person's guilt or innocent based

0:55:07.320 --> 0:55:11.000
<v Speaker 1>on all the information available. We're saying the jury have

0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:14.879
<v Speaker 1>got the skill set, the life experience to form a view,

0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.680
<v Speaker 1>and then the jury are excluded from so much information

0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:21.320
<v Speaker 1>that I think is relevant. Then perhaps we've got to

0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:23.080
<v Speaker 1>give them the benefit of the doubt that they can

0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:25.400
<v Speaker 1>interpret the weight that should be placed on that evidence.

0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, that comes back to what I was saying about

0:55:27.160 --> 0:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the hey Dad tendency aspect of evidence where there's other

0:55:31.600 --> 0:55:35.400
<v Speaker 2>like events that this person has perpetrated, and then the

0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:38.880
<v Speaker 2>jury just in some respects and still don't hear that

0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:42.280
<v Speaker 2>all the time. But there are rules of evidence which

0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:47.360
<v Speaker 2>are there to protect the person who is entitled to

0:55:47.400 --> 0:55:51.320
<v Speaker 2>a fair trial. And as I said before, no system

0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:55.920
<v Speaker 2>is fallible, and that is always up for reassessment and

0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:59.120
<v Speaker 2>for change. The laws of evidence are constantly changing and

0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:02.200
<v Speaker 2>constantly being find and you can have faith in the

0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:06.880
<v Speaker 2>fact that if there's a problem that law reform commissions

0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:09.880
<v Speaker 2>are looking at those and trying to make things better. Now,

0:56:10.160 --> 0:56:12.720
<v Speaker 2>from my point of view, they don't always make them better.

0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:16.880
<v Speaker 2>And there's been a very very substantial drift in the

0:56:16.920 --> 0:56:21.839
<v Speaker 2>criminal law to taking for granted what the victim says

0:56:21.920 --> 0:56:25.360
<v Speaker 2>is being true and not being able to challenge the victim,

0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:27.960
<v Speaker 2>particularly in sexual assault cases. I have a certain view

0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:30.319
<v Speaker 2>about that. The me Too movement has a totally different view.

0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:32.719
<v Speaker 2>So you've got to accept what a person says has

0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:37.120
<v Speaker 2>been in gospel. Well, sorry, but there's as many truths

0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.480
<v Speaker 2>come out as a person's mouth as lies do as well,

0:56:40.080 --> 0:56:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and you should have the opportunity, if you're an accused person,

0:56:43.480 --> 0:56:46.840
<v Speaker 2>to test the evidence that's being given against you. So

0:56:46.960 --> 0:56:49.040
<v Speaker 2>I think adversarial systems in that respect.

0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Other way to go okay, fair, fair comment. Would you

0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:59.239
<v Speaker 1>I see young solsteners especially, I saw them more with

0:56:59.320 --> 0:57:02.080
<v Speaker 1>the DPP, but I saw it with defense as well.

0:57:02.520 --> 0:57:06.719
<v Speaker 1>Always seem to be overworked, underpaid, and stressed. It looks

0:57:06.760 --> 0:57:09.799
<v Speaker 1>like a tough career. But I also see people like

0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:12.239
<v Speaker 1>yourself that spend lifetime in the career, and I can

0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:15.759
<v Speaker 1>tell that you've enjoyed your career, and yeah, you think

0:57:15.800 --> 0:57:22.160
<v Speaker 1>it's a worthwhile vacation. Would you recommend law to people?

0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Strangely, I tell people if someone some young kid comes

0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:29.640
<v Speaker 2>up to me or a prayer and comes up to

0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:31.320
<v Speaker 2>me and says, I agree, Do you think I think

0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.919
<v Speaker 2>Johnny should go into law? I say, listen, doesn't matter

0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:38.640
<v Speaker 2>whether it's law or medicine or any profession. Get a

0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:45.520
<v Speaker 2>job dealing with people's money, not people's problems. But no,

0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:49.240
<v Speaker 2>it's professional life as a lawyer is satisfied if you

0:57:49.480 --> 0:57:53.520
<v Speaker 2>if you understand that it's not going to make you,

0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:57.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, a billionaire, but it's it's a it's it's

0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:00.520
<v Speaker 2>a worthwhile profession if if you take it and you're

0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:01.360
<v Speaker 2>actually helping people.

0:58:01.440 --> 0:58:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Now, well, I see the lawyers that I respect,

0:58:05.920 --> 0:58:07.640
<v Speaker 1>You can see that they've put in the time and

0:58:07.680 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 1>that might be where they're turning up in the middle

0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:11.960
<v Speaker 1>of a trail and it's clear they've been up all night,

0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:13.840
<v Speaker 1>not on the drink, but up all night working on

0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:17.200
<v Speaker 1>the brief and that type of thing. I think we'll

0:58:17.200 --> 0:58:19.160
<v Speaker 1>wrap it up at this point in time. I just

0:58:19.160 --> 0:58:21.280
<v Speaker 1>want to say I've really enjoyed sitting down and having

0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:23.120
<v Speaker 1>that chat with you, for you guys are not as

0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:25.320
<v Speaker 1>bad as other people are telling me you are.

0:58:27.840 --> 0:58:31.280
<v Speaker 2>I'll go wait, I'll go await, enlightened and hardened by

0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:32.200
<v Speaker 2>that character.

0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:35.840
<v Speaker 1>No, but you've given a good insight, good insight into

0:58:35.960 --> 0:58:38.720
<v Speaker 1>the world of world of crime, and some funny stories

0:58:38.720 --> 0:58:40.960
<v Speaker 1>that I think anyone that's spent a career like you

0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:44.640
<v Speaker 1>have is going to have. And thanks for giving us

0:58:44.640 --> 0:58:46.800
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to sit down and have a chat with you.

0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:47.760
<v Speaker 2>My pleasure.

0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:48.280
<v Speaker 1>Cheers,