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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world, Greg,

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Speaker 1: I like to like I did prepare before court. I

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Speaker 1: prepare before I do podcasts, and it's in part of

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Speaker 1: my investigation. Before I've sat down spoken to you that

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Speaker 1: it's come to my attention, there's an allegation that you'll

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Speaker 1: fired a three fifty seven magnum in central local court.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to ask you about that. I want

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Speaker 1: you to understand you're not obliged to say anything or

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Speaker 1: do anything, but anything you do, say or do may

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Speaker 1: later be used in evidence. Do you understand that.

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Speaker 2: I do understand that.

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Speaker 1: Gary, Okay, well, I want you to choose your words

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Speaker 1: very carefully and think what I'm asking you here. Greg.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever fired a three point fifty seven magnum

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Speaker 1: in Central Local Court?

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Speaker 2: I have, fortunately it was later with blanks, but I

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Speaker 2: have fired the gun in the presence of two ones.

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Speaker 2: To cease now, so we've got to speak well of

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Speaker 2: you two, very very well. They thought they were funny.

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Speaker 2: Detect this.

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Speaker 1: I think it's pretty funny. In this day and age.

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Speaker 1: I definitely wouldn't think it'd be acceptable, can you. I

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Speaker 1: was reading about that and it's written down somewhere about

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Speaker 1: you firing that three point fifty seven magnum in the

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Speaker 1: courthouse or in the front of the courthouse.

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Speaker 2: No, it was. It was in the foyer of Central

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Speaker 2: Local Court. And anyone who's been to Central Local Court

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Speaker 2: will know that you walked through these a walk up

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Speaker 2: the steps of this beautiful old court building. It was

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Speaker 2: the original Magistrates court, and you walk through some glass

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Speaker 2: doors and further glass doors into this big area which

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Speaker 2: leads off into various court rooms and the court office

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Speaker 2: and It was probably about three o'clock in the afternoon,

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Speaker 2: and for some reason I had to go down there.

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Speaker 2: It may have been to file something or to find

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Speaker 2: out what was going on in a particular court that

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Speaker 2: I had some interest in. And I walked in and

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Speaker 2: I ran into a now deceeased officer, Billy Mansell, who

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Speaker 2: was a genuinely nice guy and had actually done a

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Speaker 2: lot of undercover worker and it all seemed to me

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Speaker 2: that he was too nice a black to be involved

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Speaker 2: in that sort of stuff. And in any event, Billy

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Speaker 2: was there with another detective who I can't recall, and

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Speaker 2: when I ran into Bell, and he'd been involved in

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Speaker 2: a lot of drug investigations that I had been involved in,

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Speaker 2: and I lusted what they were doing there. And they

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Speaker 2: said they were hanging around waiting to give evidence, and

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Speaker 2: what was the case about, and they said it's drugs

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Speaker 2: and guns. And I'd sort of been glanced to my

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Speaker 2: right and just to the left of the entrance to

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Speaker 2: the court room there's this great, big revolver sitting on

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Speaker 2: the chair, large as life.

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Speaker 1: Clean Eastwood Stock exactly.

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Speaker 2: It was. They're big guns. They're big guns. And so

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Speaker 2: I've walked over and I said, is that a three

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Speaker 2: five seven mag And they said, yeah, you have a

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Speaker 2: look at it, pick it up. Well, they were really

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Speaker 2: really friendly about it and encouraging. Man, I'm not a

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Speaker 2: particularly lover of guns, but I thought, well, I'll just

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Speaker 2: want to get a feel of this thing. What they

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Speaker 2: didn't tell me was that the bloody thing had a

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Speaker 2: hair trigger and that they'd put blanks in it. I've

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Speaker 2: touched I've picked it up. As I was turning around

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Speaker 2: to say something like, just bloody heavy, isn't it, I've

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Speaker 2: touched the trigger and it's gone off. In the middle

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Speaker 2: of the foyer with cases going on, Well, all hell

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Speaker 2: break loose there and people started running from everywhere, and

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Speaker 2: excuse me using this language. There's Billy and the other

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Speaker 2: copper absolutely pissing themselves with laughter and having a great

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Speaker 2: joke at my expense. And it took me a long

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Speaker 2: time to live that down.

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Speaker 1: That is a that is a good get. That is

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Speaker 1: a very good job. But could you imagine if that

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Speaker 1: happened today? The courthouse would be shut down, It'd be secured,

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Speaker 1: there'd be negotiaders called out, it would just and everyone

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Speaker 1: involved in it would be in all sorts of trouble

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Speaker 1: and people who would be off on post aumatic stress.

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Speaker 1: It's a different world, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is it is we take I think I think

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Speaker 2: in some respects we take life too seriously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you were the scene, some of the

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Speaker 1: characters in the police and some of the crooks, some

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Speaker 1: of the people in the court, some of the court officers.

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Speaker 1: There was a little bit more robust and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. There was a sense of humor

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Speaker 1: in there as well.

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Speaker 2: There was It's one of my favorite, not warding homes,

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Speaker 2: but lunching places is a Greek restaurant. I give them

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Speaker 2: a plug called Vietne's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I had many a meal there and it's.

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Speaker 2: Still great food. And i'd regularly see tables of detectives

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Speaker 2: down there on a Friday afternoon. And as I said,

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Speaker 2: you leave everything in the courtroom. It's everyone got a

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Speaker 2: job to do in this industry and you've got to

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Speaker 2: take it seriously, but you shouldn't carry it with you

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Speaker 2: when you leave. And you'd always have a laugh.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's good. And there's I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there's people that you've crossed it that you don't get

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Speaker 1: past that. But the people that I've dealt with when

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Speaker 1: I don't mind playing hard but fair, and I respect

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Speaker 1: people with the doing their job coming at the hard

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Speaker 1: but fair and vice versa, and there's not it's nice

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Speaker 1: sometimes after it's finished that you can actually yeah, it

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Speaker 1: might be just a begrudging nod, but showing respect to

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Speaker 1: the person that you've been up against in an adversarial

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Speaker 1: system because you are up against them, and the way

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Speaker 1: you described it in part one, it's like a playing

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Speaker 1: within the rules of a sporting match.

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Speaker 2: I've had the benefit. On one occasion, I was in

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Speaker 2: the Old Courthouse Hotel after a trial. I think it

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Speaker 2: was up there with Pat Costello. Pat and I'd get

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Speaker 2: involved in a trial up there, and we're actually having

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Speaker 2: a drink with a very legend detective by the name

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Speaker 2: of Johnny Burke. It was as hard as nails have

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Speaker 2: a drink with John and he was the nicest blake

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Speaker 2: in the world. When someone came up and started giving

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Speaker 2: either him or the grief, well, he went from the

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Speaker 2: nicest blake in the world to a bloke I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want it to have been arrested by.

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Speaker 1: Didn't want to take that different person, didn't want to

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Speaker 1: wan across at the court house. I tell yeah, many

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Speaker 1: a victory drink spent there, just leading into that when

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Speaker 1: you do win a case is there and I would

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Speaker 1: imagine and people that you genuinely don't believe it are

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Speaker 1: guilty and the justice would be served if they've gone off.

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Speaker 1: Do you go out then celebrate? And you don't have

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Speaker 1: to specific examples, but is it something that's done.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it is something that's done. You go and

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Speaker 2: have a drink with the with the sort of the

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Speaker 2: defendants group, with the q's group, but you don't spend

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Speaker 2: it a lot of time there. I got caught once

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Speaker 2: down at Aubrey with the with the Black Ullans after

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Speaker 2: winning a case there, and I was supposed to be

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Speaker 2: It was a Friday, and I was I supposed to

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Speaker 2: beginning home the next day to move house with my wife.

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Speaker 2: And she never lets me forget this, but they got

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Speaker 2: me absolutely drunk to the point where I couldn't get

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Speaker 2: on the plane they had. They had to carry me

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Speaker 2: home to someone's bed and put me on the plane

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Speaker 2: the next day.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great caution, I shouldn't have to. Yeah, it might

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Speaker 1: sound exciting going for a drink at the clubhouse, but yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: they got you, they got me. Okay, well you've learnt,

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Speaker 1: you learned your lesson. You've been around long enough to

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Speaker 1: see King's Cross when it was that that golden mile,

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Speaker 1: when it was the under the King's Cross, underworld, the underbelly.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your experiences there because you're working in

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Speaker 1: criminal law there before the Royal Commission of the Wood

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Speaker 1: Royal Commission, I'm talking about the commission into police corruption

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Speaker 1: that dragged a lot of people in. But you you

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Speaker 1: knew that world, you understood that world, and tell us

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Speaker 1: about those times.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was an interesting It was an interesting

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Speaker 2: world because it was it was the place where people

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Speaker 2: went to enjoy themselves. But it was it was, as

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Speaker 2: I said, we go back to the Vietnam War as

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Speaker 2: being I think the crucial element in the development of

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Speaker 2: the drug culture in Australia. The American R and R

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Speaker 2: boys brought drugs back and it's sort of burgeoned after that,

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Speaker 2: and King's Cross was the place where everyone went, and

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Speaker 2: it was just there were so many clubs. You could

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Speaker 2: go to some clubs and you could get your weed.

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Speaker 2: You you can go to other clubs to get your

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Speaker 2: meth or your coke. There was a little well, I

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Speaker 2: suppose I don't know whether I should name the person

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Speaker 2: who was responsible. He's done his fifteen years, but he

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Speaker 2: was well known and he was represented in Underbelly. But

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Speaker 2: he added a little shoot where he It was like

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Speaker 2: a little service Winday, I don't get what you wanted,

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Speaker 2: but it was really really quite straight and back in

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Speaker 2: the day you had people who were in and around

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Speaker 2: the cross of Imember Sweethearts Cafe. It's famous from a

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Speaker 2: Jimmy Barnes song, Breakfast Sweethearts. I ate breakfast at Sweetheart's

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Speaker 2: quite a few times after going in at four o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning or two o'clock in the morning to

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Speaker 2: King's Cross police station to advise clients.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thew we're up now, we may as well have breakfast.

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Speaker 2: But it was interesting times garrier because of the nature

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Speaker 2: of the location. It was just one of those places

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Speaker 2: at that particular time where from a person who didn't

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Speaker 2: have to be involved in the crime, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: was absolutely amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think you do get then you're fortunate. And

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Speaker 1: I found that in policing, in the work that I did,

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Speaker 1: you get to look in to a world that you

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Speaker 1: don't want to be part of You don't want to

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Speaker 1: be fully embedded in it. But you get to see

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Speaker 1: what's going on and get an understanding of it. Because

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Speaker 1: Louis Bay you had dealings with him. Did you act

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Speaker 1: for him or just came across?

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Speaker 2: No, I acted for Louis, and then I had Then

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Speaker 2: I had cause not to want anything else to do

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Speaker 2: with Louis. At one stage I was in some respects

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Speaker 2: I was naive in relation to the way I thought

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Speaker 2: I handled my relationship with him. But I can say

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Speaker 2: that on a number of occasions Louis said, I want

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Speaker 2: you to come and have a Chinese lunch out at

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Speaker 2: Parramatta with me. Well, I've turned up and I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: at a table with Roger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Roger Rogerson, the former New South Wales police officer,

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Speaker 1: corrupt police officer and convicted murderer.

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Speaker 2: Lanny McPherson, a couple of other people who wait, a

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Speaker 2: good crew, you've got the game, and Lurry and Sorry

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Speaker 2: and Louis. And it was a bit of an education.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny, isn't it. Well it's not funny,

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Speaker 1: but that's how you get indoctrinated into that world, like

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Speaker 1: come and have a lunch and then oh, well, yeah

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to that person, and then the next thing,

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Speaker 1: Roger's on the phone. I want you to do a

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Speaker 1: favor for me, and you can get caught up in

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Speaker 1: that world, can't you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I never had anything to do with Roger. Wilst

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Speaker 2: it was a detective. He was actually doing wrought iron

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Speaker 2: and putting rowed iron in gold and jar you know,

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Speaker 2: different bars and things, which is quite it looks.

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Speaker 1: I think he was doing some other stuff too, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well and he didn't learn from his first job.

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Speaker 1: His last one was a classic was yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, anyone who can think they could walk around

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Speaker 2: a city the size of Sydney, you'll not be photographed

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Speaker 2: a thousand times. He's got another thing.

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Speaker 1: And look, Roger was from a police point of view,

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Speaker 1: and like my early days in policing, I remember being

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Speaker 1: in the witness boxes. I was in the arm hole

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Speaker 1: up squad in the nineties. Again in the witness box.

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Speaker 1: I've never met Roger, but being cross examined. So you're

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Speaker 1: in the arm toole up squad, aren't you. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it was you. Okay, you're in the arm hole

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Speaker 1: up squad, aren't you? Yes, and so you're you're the

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Speaker 1: tough guys. You bash them, you lower them, you do this.

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Speaker 1: Roger Rogerson's your hero. And that was a narrative because

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Speaker 1: he put a stain on all of us, and not

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Speaker 1: just Roger, there was other people. But that's world that

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Speaker 1: you're in. Before the Royal Commission exposed it all and

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Speaker 1: people were accountable, it was a dangerous, dangerous place to operate,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: I never felt it was dangerous, right, Okay? As I said,

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Speaker 2: and I've said this to others, the only person who

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Speaker 2: I really thought uncomfortable with was Lenny was with with

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Speaker 2: Netdie Smith.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what what was it about that?

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Speaker 2: I just think that it was Nettie's persona, his demeanor.

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Speaker 2: He was sort of this brooding character and just felt

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Speaker 2: slightly uncomfortable with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, even look for the crimes and yeah he's

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Speaker 1: passed away, we can we can talk openly. But the

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Speaker 1: the crimes that he was involved in, and he sounded

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Speaker 1: like a grub in some of the things that he

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Speaker 1: did that you know, he had that persona of being

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Speaker 1: a gangster, but there was that other side side to him.

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Speaker 2: He was psychopathical, didn't seem to have any regard for

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Speaker 2: human like now that others may say differently.

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Speaker 1: I take on board that that's your impression.

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Speaker 2: But that's but I and I was never exposed to

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Speaker 2: his really really outside but I just felt there was

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Speaker 2: sort of this brooding presence there that was difficult.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you identify him of all the people you've

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Speaker 1: dealt with, and you've come across a wide range of

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Speaker 1: let's call them villains or colorful identities, that he was

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Speaker 1: one that you got that got that sense from.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you think of a person who I had

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Speaker 2: some regard for, and that's Abbot Henry Graham. Abbot Henry.

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Speaker 1: He's a former gangster that used to run with Neddie

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Speaker 1: Smith during the Roger Rogerson era.

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Speaker 2: Graham is the nicest flake and the funniest blake you're made.

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Speaker 2: And to put him in the same gang as Neddie,

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Speaker 2: I think he was ran in that sort of circle.

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Speaker 2: He just too totally different type of people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know Graham pretty pretty well now and he's

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Speaker 1: been on the podcast and I've caught up with him

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Speaker 1: a bit. When you say it's a nice blake, I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the same area and they used to

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Speaker 1: terrorize people were young, changed Yeah, he's changed, let's say.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I know what you're saying. Very personal saw

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Speaker 1: the blake. You can sit down and speak to Graham

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Speaker 1: and have a laugh, have a drink, and yeah.

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Speaker 2: You see, there's the difference between police officers and criminal lawyers.

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Speaker 2: When you're dealing with the same people, they have a

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Speaker 2: totally different attitude to you than they do to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so you see them from different perspectives.

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Speaker 1: Gary, Well, that's true, that's true. What you had interesting

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Speaker 1: when you were dealing with Louis Baya that he had

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Speaker 1: a young.

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Speaker 2: Driver that was Johnny Ibrahim.

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Speaker 1: Did you identify john as someone that was going to

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Speaker 1: rise to the level he did?

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Speaker 2: No, No, I didn't recognize it, but having observed it

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Speaker 2: over the many years, I have no doubt that he

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Speaker 2: was always going to do well for himself. Yeah. John

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Speaker 2: reads situation as well, and he was. I think he

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Speaker 2: found himself in the right place at the right time,

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Speaker 2: with the rights skills to be able to gain from

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Speaker 2: his good luck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, he's where he's at now, He's many his

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Speaker 1: way through, so he must have something going for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He's sort of that old expression about laying down

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Speaker 2: with dogs and getting up with fleas is relevant to

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Speaker 2: all of us. But John's been able to deal with

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Speaker 2: that aspect of his life in a reasonable sort of way,

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Speaker 2: so that he's come out relatively unscathed.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Staunton, you would have had dealings with Charlie Staunton,

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Speaker 1: greg He was a former New South Wales police officer

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Speaker 1: and he got into some trouble ended up leaving the police,

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Speaker 1: so I think he became a private investigator and did

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Speaker 1: a bit of wheeling and dealing around King's Cross Again.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at all the people we've had on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: but that's what happens when you've been going for a

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Speaker 1: few years. But I've got to say, if Charlie didn't exists,

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Speaker 1: you'd have to invent him quite the way he's lived

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Speaker 1: his life.

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Speaker 2: One of Well's lovable rogues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what what's your what's your take on Charlie? Because

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Speaker 1: I had to laugh at some of the things that

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Speaker 1: he got up to.

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Speaker 2: He's got up to so much. One book's not enough

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Speaker 2: for Charlie in terms of what he's been through. But

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Speaker 2: Charlie is is is a rogue to start with, and

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Speaker 2: we all love him. We don't always want to see

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Speaker 2: him because he's gonna he's going to put the pinch

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Speaker 2: on us. But when he comes you can always have

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Speaker 2: a laugh and you always know what you're getting with Charlie.

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Speaker 2: He's pretty upfront.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I found that with him in my dealings with him,

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Speaker 1: and I've caught up with him and bumped into him

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Speaker 1: at certain certain places, and yeah, he's a character, and like,

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Speaker 1: we're not condoning crime. We've sit here, we'll put that

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Speaker 1: out there on things. But back in those days there

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Speaker 1: were larger than life characters, weren't they. And I I

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Speaker 1: don't know. And you mentioned in part one and I

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Speaker 1: reflected on it during the break about the way the

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Speaker 1: gangsters go about their business now and look at me

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Speaker 1: type attitude. It has changed, hasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, everyone wants to know what you're doing, starting off

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Speaker 2: with what you had at the last restaurant you were at,

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Speaker 2: who you're laying by the swimming pool with now, and

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Speaker 2: who you're killing.

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Speaker 1: Don't you take those of your breakfast each morning?

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Speaker 2: Don't face it to everyone. It's going to be the

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Speaker 2: same every morning, I'm afraid.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I know what you're saying. Interesting, if we're

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Speaker 1: talking the way things change, is it harder to be

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Speaker 1: a crook now than it would be let's say twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago, with all the technology that's changed.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it's harder. Certainly harder. But if you're

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Speaker 2: switched on crook and you know how to run under

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Speaker 2: the radar, I think that you are likely to last

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Speaker 2: a lot longer than these guys who have no regard

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Speaker 2: to the fact that everything we do in public is scrutinized,

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Speaker 2: either by virtue of public cameras or private cameras. Everyone's

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Speaker 2: running around with a camera to take photos of you

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Speaker 2: these days. Your likelihood of your telephone calls being monitored

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Speaker 2: is real. So if you're going to do anything, you've

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Speaker 2: better to do it face to face because telephones aren't

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Speaker 2: safe and people don't wake up to that. It keeps

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Speaker 2: me in business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you've got a phone on you like

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Speaker 1: just the tracking, the ability, and I look at from

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Speaker 1: an investigative point of view, if there was a murder. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pre mobile phone days, it was you check who you

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Speaker 1: phoned on your landline, what public phones were in the

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Speaker 1: area of fingerprints. Look at the technology available now, see

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Speaker 1: we could track you from the time you left your

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Speaker 1: office in the city to come here and your movements

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Speaker 1: and basically everything you've done it so much harder.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm involved in a murder case at the moment,

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Speaker 2: my client, I think will be I've negotiated him out

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Speaker 2: of that aspect of the case or his accessorial involvement

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Speaker 2: in the case. But when you looked at the evidence,

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Speaker 2: the police were able to track the vehicle that the

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Speaker 2: shooters or the assassins if I can call them, that

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Speaker 2: used from the time it was stolen until the time

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Speaker 2: it was burnt, and in relation to my client who

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Speaker 2: was involved in picking them up, exactly where his vehicle

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Speaker 2: went as well, because you can't drive around anything that's

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Speaker 2: you'd regard as a main arterial road or any arterial

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Speaker 2: road without being photographed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a reality of it, isn't well talking about technology,

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Speaker 1: And I understand that there's some appeals going through court

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Speaker 1: or currently, so if you can't talk too much about it,

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Speaker 1: but just your take on that you involved in that

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 2: I am involved in that from three different aspects. I've

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Speaker 2: got an appeal currently running in relation to a couple

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Speaker 2: of clients who pleaded guilty and got rewarded for what

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Speaker 2: we call facilitating the course of justice, but that's under

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Speaker 2: appeal by the ground as to the inadequacy of the penalties.

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Speaker 2: Of opinion that if you want to get people to

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Speaker 2: plead guilty, you've got to show them that it's going

401
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Speaker 2: to be worthwhile, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: they get locked up, cost one hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars per prisoner to keep them in jail, and in

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Speaker 2: some respects they don't come out any better than what

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Speaker 2: they went in. So you've got to change the system

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Speaker 2: in that regard. I'm involved with others who are waiting

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Speaker 2: on the outcome of the High Court appeal, and it's

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Speaker 2: a very interesting aspect picture.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, and I probably should have because you and I

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Speaker 1: know what we're talking about. But that was the sting

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Speaker 1: operation that started in America but also used in law

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Speaker 1: enforcement over here.

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Speaker 2: Operation Inside and cuphibially didn't know the creator or the

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Speaker 2: person who organized the creation of what we call the

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Speaker 2: phantom Secure Phones, which is one of the encrypted phanes

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Speaker 2: that was used some time ago. He was arrested by

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Speaker 2: the police and charged with racketeering offenses, which are their

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Speaker 2: conspiracy offenses in relation to providing telephones to the Sinaloa cartel.

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Speaker 2: So by doing that he was facilitating their ability to

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Speaker 2: communicate large drug trafficking enterprises. And he was threatened with

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Speaker 2: thirty years in jail and was given the option of

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Speaker 2: doing the thirty years or assisting the police and getting

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Speaker 2: a lesser sentence. Well, he took the latter, and whilst

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Speaker 2: that was in train, he got one of his technicians,

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Speaker 2: at the request of the police, to put together the plat.

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Speaker 1: For that and people involved in criminal enterprise or I

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Speaker 1: won't say that as a defense so you object, your

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Speaker 1: honor great as a podcast listener, but that they were

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Speaker 1: passed out to people that may or may not have

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Speaker 1: been involved in criminal activities, and the police were monitoring

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Speaker 1: the cause on phones that the people that had them

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Speaker 1: felt they were encrypted and safe, that there's no way

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Speaker 1: that law enforcement could monitor what was going on. Is that?

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Speaker 2: Well? The way the way that worked was that like

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Speaker 2: you or I would send a text and I was

436
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: intending it to go from me to you, I would

437
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: type in the text. That text would then be copied

438
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 2: within the platform and when when when the text text

439
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: press send, the copy would immediately go through a system

440
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 2: called called bots eyebots to the police who were monitoring it,

441
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: and there were several agencies that were doing so, and

442
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 2: there was some suggestion that it had gone through an

443
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: overseas country like Romania, I think, or somewhere like that.

444
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: It was quite kite of complicated. But the South Australian

445
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, in a case involving I think a conspiracy

446
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: that murder, dealt with the matter first and Justice Kimber

447
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: there decided that it was admissible because it didn't contravene

448
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 2: the definition of what an actual intercept was because of

449
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 2: when you press sent. It didn't go to the receiver,

450
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: it went to the police and it was very technically

451
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: and that's a very very simplistic explanation. But the accused

452
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: then appealed. It went to a three court bench who

453
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: upheld Judge Justice Kimber's decision that it wasn't an intercept,

454
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: and now it's gone to the High Court. In the meantime,

455
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 2: Mark Drayfus, our Attorney General, decided that he'd put through

456
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: legislation and declaring that that particular function that platform, what

457
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: at the anom phone did was not an intercept right

458
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: and that's created a possible constitutional problem because it raises

459
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: the separation of powers and what the courts are there

460
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: to do, and what the High Court is there to

461
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: do to interpret the laws as they apply and the

462
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: definitions as they apply. An interesting question which will now

463
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: arise is has the Attorney General usurped the functions of

464
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: the court and basically denied the operation of the separation

465
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: of powers of which there are three. That Parliament makes laws,

466
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: the Executive enforces the laws, and the judiciary interprets the laws.

467
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: Okay, is going to be interesting. So when we looking

468
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: at decision coming back about.

469
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: That, we're looking at it. I think it'll probably get

470
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: to the High Court between June and August sometimes.

471
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people because there's some large

472
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: numbers of people that were charged flowing on from that,

473
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: so high stakes.

474
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: A lot of political pressure out there. I think I'm

475
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: being practical.

476
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine it's well, get on.

477
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: It's a really interesting It is.

478
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: Interesting because if you're making legislation and make it, well,

479
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: it's retrospective, isn't it. It's capturing something from the past.

480
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: And you'd agree. The interesting part about well, your former

481
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: job and my current job is that it's it's all

482
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: about how society works. From the underbelly to the very top.

483
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I've got to say, from an ex

484
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: detectives point of view, I thought it was a great

485
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: plan when I heard about it. I'm thinking, damn it, well,

486
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: didn't I think about something like that that's simplistic in

487
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: the planning but very complicated in the actual getting it

488
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: up and running. And I'm surprised. I'm surprised. And I

489
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: can talk like this because I'm not invold them, but

490
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: I'm surprised it didn't get out like there would have

491
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: been a lot of pot.

492
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: You started to get out because someone realized there was

493
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: a leak at the end of it, and that was

494
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 2: going straight to the police. But it's my turn to object.

495
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: It's my turn to object in criminal law. And I

496
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: think in life, there's a saying which a lot of

497
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 2: people don't get better, that ninety nine guilty men go

498
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted. And it's

499
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: the chance of using these mechanisms, these platforms, these things,

500
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 2: or creating a case against a person wrongly that puts

501
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: in a position where people are wrongly convicted. And I

502
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: say to people who say this to me, do you

503
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: really care about these people and how can you act

504
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: for criminals? It's all this sort of stuff, and I say, well,

505
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: hang on a sec We've got a system that should

506
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: be fair, should be reasonable, and shouldn't it shouldn't be

507
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: adam and even giving them the apple again to commit

508
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: a mortal sin because you might get dragging in an

509
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: innocent person and that innocent What I say, do you

510
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: want your son to be that innocent person and do

511
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: twenty years? Yeah?

512
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: Look, and you can't argue with that. Let's saying I

513
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: might have been the old days. I'm not going to.

514
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to now. But yeah, I do understand

515
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: what you're saying, and there needs to be checks and

516
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: balances exactly and to make the system work. But yeah,

517
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: that's going to be fascinating how that comes across, because

518
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: this is a real test is this is the High Court,

519
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: This is making the big decisions, and.

520
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: It's not just lawyers being nerdy. It really has an impact.

521
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Look, I in regards and I always make comments about

522
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: lawyers and slices and whatnot. I do understand the need

523
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: for proper defense, and I take issue with some people

524
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: that I think cross the line, as you would take

525
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: issue with where you think police have cross across the line.

526
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: I've seen come up against some lawyers. I just think

527
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: that that's stooping too what they've done there. And it

528
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: might be just the way that they're they're cross examining

529
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: someone or the way that they're playing, but we do

530
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: need the checks and balances, so I think we're on

531
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: a grance there. I have now seen it, and I

532
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: keep saying it because it did change my perspective, like

533
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: having the full way that the state coming after you.

534
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: And I know when I was going to court, I

535
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: was thinking, well, that the worst that's going to happen

536
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I might get a fine or

537
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: something like that. I can't imagine the impact that would

538
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: have on you. If the consequences were when this jury

539
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: comes back or this judge comes back, that could dictate

540
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: the rest of your life.

541
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: Like its high stakes, but the Lord doesn't always work

542
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: in favor of the accused. It also works in favor

543
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: of people down the track in terms of how evidence

544
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: is considered and recrafted. For instance, in the Hey Dad

545
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: case where the Hughes was charged with there's a multiplicity

546
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: of terrible child sexual asside offenses that changed the tendency law,

547
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: so that a lot more material can come in. Now,

548
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: if you've got if you've got a tendency to do,

549
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: then that can be established. So that's in favor of

550
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: the person who's saying that. Those people who say, well, oh,

551
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: but he did this and he did that, why wasn't

552
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: that raised, Well, now things.

553
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: Like that, it can be raised.

554
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: It's called tendency.

555
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I was involved through campaigning with the Bearable

556
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: community on the double jeopardy legislation. It hasn't changed the

557
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: changed the landscape, and I don't think there's any I

558
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: don't think there's been a situation where someone's being convicted.

559
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: And what I'm talking about there is that if someone

560
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: was acquitted of a crime, they couldn't be retried until

561
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: the double jeopardy legislation was changed. Now fresh and compelling

562
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: the evidence and that and that's in the interests of justice.

563
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: The fact that sitting there, I think is a good

564
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: thing because I would hate to have someone and what

565
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: could have been someone that acquitted of a murder could

566
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: walk out of court and go, well, I got a

567
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: way of that and we could never recharge. So the

568
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: fact that the legislation is sitting there hasn't been implemented.

569
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: I think is a good thing. But I've always been

570
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: on about legislation or the justice system, and I get

571
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: your thoughts on it. A justice system is set up

572
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: to serve the community. That's therefore, and if adjustments have

573
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: got it, if it's not serving the community, legislation needs

574
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: to be changed. Are you an advocate for changing legislation

575
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: where it needs to be changed or is it more

576
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: old school? Now we've been doing this for two hundred years,

577
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: white change, No.

578
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: No, I hear what you say, and what I don't

579
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: like is knee jerk. Yeah, let's just live changed where

580
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: you get change for the sake of satisfying some particular

581
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: publicity agenda, agenda, and then you end up with victims

582
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: of that agenda who are wrongly convicted or wrongly accused,

583
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 2: and we find that the law is then used to

584
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: assist politicians in their electoral cycle.

585
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's you talk about changing the law agendas and

586
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: the media interests and all that. The bail laws on

587
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: youth crime and baiol laws. I know there's been a

588
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: lot of talk about that, but I think you articulate

589
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: very well that quite often it's changed for a political agenda,

590
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: and it doesn't always work, and innocent people can be

591
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: caught up in it.

592
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's because we live in a reactive rather than

593
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: proactive society. We're reacting to what we see as being

594
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: a problem, and we're chastising and punishing those who are

595
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: involved in perpetrating those problems. But we're not going back

596
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: in the way that we were talking about how jails

597
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: are changing Gary and saying, how can we stop young

598
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: Indigenous kids from running right in our springs? How can

599
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: we stop them before they leave home to go and

600
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: run right? And how can we stop kids in Sydney

601
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: or in Melbourne, and then the poorer parts going out

602
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: and creating habit and getting into postcode gangs or getting

603
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: into whatever it is. We've got to look at those

604
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: aspects and we've got to put our resources into stopping

605
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: crime before it starts.

606
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: Diversionary plans you talked about keeping someone in custody come

607
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 1: across one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to

608
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: keep a person in custody when you look at the

609
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: expense that is spent. There had Tim Watson Monroe, a

610
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: criminal psychologist, on them. He made the point that for

611
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, you could have each

612
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 1: inmate with their own personal psychologists looking after them to

613
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: keep them on the straight and narrow. It's a huge amount,

614
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: and I know there are people that we need to

615
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: protect society from. I've got no problems, and there needs

616
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: to be deterrens, there needs to be punishments. All the

617
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: things that you talked about get taken into with sentencing.

618
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: Tim being a psychologist, would say that I might say,

619
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: spend one hundred and fifty thousand. Not a good lawyer.

620
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: And look, Greg, we've got to be on us here.

621
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: If we clear up, if we solve all the solutions

622
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: of crime, you're going to be out of business.

623
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: I don't think that's going to happen, Gary Ott. But

624
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: I think we're entitled as members of a great democracy

625
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 2: to have a system that's fair and that's reasonable and

626
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: we get it right as many times as is possible

627
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: within a fallible system. And all systems are fallible. But

628
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: I think we do.

629
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: Okay here, Okay, let's talk other clients that you've had

630
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: and if I mentioned someone and you're not comfortable talking

631
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: about it, but got a lot of media publicity, so

632
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: we're not talking out of the school. But John Abraham's girlfriend,

633
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: Sarah Budge, that was charged with the possession of the firearm.

634
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: Yes, decent, lovely girl, Sarah. I've got a lot of

635
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: time for Sarah Budge and now she's John's wife, A

636
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: really really decent gale. As you might say, that was

637
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 2: an interesting case. I was part of a really really

638
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: good team of lawyers and had a fair jury who

639
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: came back with the right decision.

640
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that people haven't heard about that there

641
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: was a firearm found found at the premises and it

642
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: was what was the actual charge.

643
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: It was The charge was possession of an unlicensed pistol,

644
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: which I think can carry up to fourteen years in jail.

645
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: It's a guns are something we take seriously in our

646
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: community and rightly so, as you'd recall and you'd agree

647
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: with that, And it was the prosecution couldn't establish that

648
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: she had knowledge that was there or even put it

649
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: there on you, and given that other people had access

650
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 2: to her apartment, I thought that was the right decision.

651
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 1: An element of doubt, of doubt there absolutely Another high

652
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: profile person that you've represented was Scott Miller, the former

653
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: and I think it's a sad case. And I know

654
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: sentencing you addressing the issues that created that situation. For

655
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: those that don't know, Scott Miller, he was a silver

656
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: medalist at the Olympics, a swimmer and got involved in drugs.

657
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: You should when you say silver medalist, you've got to

658
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: put that in context. Garat, he should have been the

659
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: gold medalist. He was the fastest butterfly swimmer on top

660
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: of the water. Now, if anyone knows anything about swimming,

661
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: and you dive into a twenty five meter peol or

662
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 2: a fifty meter pool, you go fifteen meters and you

663
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: look up and there's all these flags. There's a big

664
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: string of flags across. You've got to be surfaced by them.

665
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: His nemesis was a guy called Dennis Pankrotov, a Russian,

666
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: bloody Russians again, yeah, absolutely yeah, And it was invading

667
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 2: the swimming pool and he was spending probably sixty percent

668
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: of the time that he swamm the butterfly under the

669
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: water doing a dolphin kick, So it wasn't butterfly at all.

670
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: But strangely enough, you can swim faster underwater than you

671
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: can by breaking the surface on top of the water.

672
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: And he beat. He came up probably a body length

673
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: in front of Scott in the nineteen six Olympics and

674
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: he beat Scott to the wall by a bee's knees.

675
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I didn't think. I didn't think we're going

676
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: to dissect the and Scotty.

677
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: Then they then changed the rules after that, and so

678
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: Scott's had that you know is an also rad you

679
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: don't win the gold.

680
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: Well, that's yeah, okay, I didn't realize the backstory to it. Okay,

681
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: so you've gone in depth there.

682
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: And then he got injured coming up to the Sydney Olympics,

683
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: which was which was every every sportsman's dream who was

684
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: an Olympic class at sporting events, missed out on that,

685
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: tried to come back for two o four and injuries

686
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: put him out, but then found himself, like a lot

687
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: of swimmers do, suffering what we call post elite sportsman's suppression.

688
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: You go and swimmings, you know, you follow the black line.

689
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: It's you're in your own world training and then you

690
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: come out of this bubble into the limelight. You're some

691
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 2: hero and you've got to deal with that with no

692
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: training for it. No, it's a sad story.

693
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: Is a sad story. How did you come to be

694
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: representing him?

695
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 2: Because just through associations and through well actually through his

696
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: wife and through my associations with other people involved in

697
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: swimming got to know got to know Scott and looked

698
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: after him.

699
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: You see a lot of elite sportsmen that have had

700
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: the highs and then struggle after it. But yeah, it

701
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: plays out in rugby league for a lot of different reasons,

702
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: but you see a lot that happened with a lot

703
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: of a lot of sportsmen.

704
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: I think rugby is a sort of different category. Yeah,

705
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: it's well in that it's young men weekly being involved

706
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: in this glamorous, high profile Adelatian type sport and you

707
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: know there's cocaine around, and there's good looking girls at

708
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: clubs and so forth, and it's not the sort of

709
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: same sort of the isolation of a swimmer. And you

710
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: look at a lot of our swimmers have had Lisal

711
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: Jones had problems and so you know Scotty wasn't is

712
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: not alone. He was just one that fell further than others.

713
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 2: As I said, it's a sad.

714
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: Story, and representing him, you're obviously the way that you

715
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: relay the story, you felt felt it personally the responsibility

716
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: of representing him.

717
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Yeah, people commit crime, but doesn't stop them

718
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: from being human beings. And you can set the crime

719
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: aside and you've still got Sometimes you've got a really

720
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: decent human being there. He's made a lot of bad mistakes,

721
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: but you can't throw the good person out with the bathwater.

722
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: Another person that you've come across in your career, and

723
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: we're going back into the dark, well, the King's Cross.

724
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: But Sally Anne Huckstep who was by way of introduction,

725
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: people probably heard her name, but Warren France, Warren lan

726
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: Franchi lanb Francie's girlfriend at the time that Tea was

727
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: shot and killed by Roger Rogerson and was sort of

728
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: considered she might have been an informant giving information, but

729
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: she ended up being murdered.

730
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, her body was found in one of the

731
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: Centennial Park lakes.

732
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: And she was at the time she was vocal in

733
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: speaking up about police corruption.

734
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: Well, she was speaking up to the extent that she

735
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: believed that Roger Rogerson had had killed Warren in cold blood.

736
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: And there's all sorts of different stories about that. Yeah,

737
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: and she was a victim of a time when collusion

738
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: I think between people in positions of relative power, either

739
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 2: from the criminal malieu or from the police mailieu, were

740
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: bound to catch up with.

741
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how did you find her as a person.

742
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: We didn't, I don't. I think we may have acted

743
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: for when I was in to practice out at Bondi

744
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: junction with one of my older partners in with our

745
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: deceased as well. We acted for just on my smartor things,

746
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: I think, but we got more caught up in in

747
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: that aspect of it because we were alleged to have

748
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: had her diaries in my in my office, and in

749
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: my office was then broken into and ow and we nothing, no,

750
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: nothing of value taken except there was a nice neatly

751
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: cut section of our roof.

752
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: Sorry break break this down. Just my detective minds thinking

753
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: hole it. So you the information was that you had

754
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: Sally's diaries.

755
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: Well, that was a rumor that was out there and

756
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: that had come through another girlfriend of hers, for whom

757
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: we acted, and it was thought that that had been

758
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: left in our in our care.

759
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: And that could be very damaging for certain people.

760
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: We didn't have it. We didn't have it safe. And

761
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 2: in fact that when people were playing with checks, they

762
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: were stuck in a jar. On the top of a

763
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: filing cabinet. Well, they were all still there, but there

764
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 2: was a well precisely cut hole in our roof and

765
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: they got through the roof and through the ceiling, and

766
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: I think and there was clearly all our filing cabinets

767
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: had been rifled.

768
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: You can't. You can't make this stuff up. You can't

769
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: make this stuff up. Okay, I'm just. I'm just I

770
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: hadn't realized that. Just thinking about that. Okay, that's interesting.

771
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: The diaries. Wow, what do you think makes a good solicitor?

772
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to I haven't forgotten about the saying that

773
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: you've ever met and I'll exclude myself from this question.

774
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: Have you ever met a good detective? But before I do,

775
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: what do you consider is the good traits of a

776
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: defense solictener?

777
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: Be a good listener, be compassionate and be prepared to

778
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: look at the case from every available angle, and to

779
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: do your best by your client and be truthful to

780
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: your client.

781
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: Good advice. Did you have mentors throughout your career or

782
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: people that you learned from.

783
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: I had different barristers who I worked with. I had

784
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 2: the benefit of working with some great lawyers and being

785
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 2: opposed by some great lawyers. A lot of them became

786
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: really good judges. And if you know, laws are really

787
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: rewarding place because you sort of feel like you're doing good,

788
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: you feel like you've not done and done. It can

789
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 2: be self critical too much sometimes, but now I generally

790
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: had the benefit of working with good barristers and with

791
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: people who were really, really smart.

792
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: Do you have have barristers that you Is it Forbes

793
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: Chambers that you engage with a lot of barristers from

794
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: Forbes Chambers?

795
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I regard Forbes is probably the premier criminal chambers.

796
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: But across the board there.

797
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: I used to hate walking up there server brief Forbes Chambers.

798
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: But across the across the across the span of barristers.

799
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: Samuel Griffiths have got some very good barristers, and there's

800
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 2: some other chambers spread around.

801
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: And what's what's the working relationship with the solicitor and

802
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: the barrister, Like, what's the dynamic dynamics there.

803
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: Well, I've always regarded myself as anything but a bad carrier.

804
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: I say jokingly, I'm anicat I'm anicating today which has

805
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 2: gone getting paid and not doing any of the work.

806
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: But I tell my clients that they're at a two horse race,

807
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: I says, as a prosecution, and there's us. I say,

808
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: I'm the trainer, the barrasses, the jockey, and you know

809
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: what you are. You're a horse, okay, So if you

810
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: don't run across the line first, you're in big trouble.

811
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: I haven't heard that description. Break that down again, Run

812
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: it past me again, so I don't forget it.

813
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 2: I say, the solicitors, the trainer, the barrasses, the jockey,

814
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: but the client's the horse. It's a good analogy because

815
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: if the horse doesn't run across the line first, the

816
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: jockey and the trainer walk away. They go home.

817
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: That's not a bad way of describing it. Policing have

818
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: you seen. You've been in the as a defense solicit

819
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: for forty years, so you've seen changes in police like

820
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even recognize what policing was in the eighties,

821
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: the early eighties compared to one of these is Now,

822
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 1: what do you think the quality of investigations are?

823
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: Like? I think the quality of investigations has improved markedly.

824
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: I think that's because I came into law on the

825
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: cusp of a change where we'd gone through that period

826
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: where there were suggestions of corruption and so forth, and

827
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 2: police were prepared to make up conversations that they'd had

828
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: with suspects, which we called verbals, in order to gain

829
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: a conviction. So they were walking working more on gut

830
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: instinct than they were on real hard work.

831
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: I think that's fair and say, and I think to.

832
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: The credit of the police force, that's greatly improved and

833
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: with the advance that we advances that we've had in

834
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: what I talked about earlier about forensic technologies, which is

835
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: listening devices and telephone intercepts, better surveillance, long range cameras

836
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: and long range and basically putting in the time to

837
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: act on where you start off with a suspicion and

838
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: then were your way through to look at how things

839
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: work and whether you've got something that's just a spinoff,

840
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 2: And a lot of the major busts that have been

841
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: achieved by police is by just looking at that spinoff.

842
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: Is there something here this person's met that person, We're

843
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: going to look at what he's doing.

844
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: It's definitely evolving and changing changing landscape for criminal investigation.

845
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: A good detechnic if you've come up against in your

846
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: career someone because there's been some ding dog battles in

847
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: the courts and over time, is there one that you

848
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: could say that you respected for the way he or

849
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: she went about their job.

850
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: Well, in terms of just dogged determination, i'd have to

851
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: talk about Justin Murray. I've actually got Justin in a

852
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: case now. But Justin was the officer in charge of

853
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: the investigations into the Armor Guard robberies across the pavement

854
00:47:54,280 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 2: Armorgard robberies. When I think Chubb an Armourguard security trucks

855
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: were being attacked as they stopped to fill up ATMs

856
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: and so forth. And I think overall seven at some

857
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 2: point one million or seven point six million dollars was

858
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 2: was stolen by the police.

859
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: Well, I stule was I said, yeah, and go, okay,

860
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 1: we're going make sure we're recording this the alleged cross

861
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: highlight that trip. There's your headline in the paper. Okay.

862
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: I made the mistake in court last week this last

863
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: week of referring to one of my clients as as

864
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 2: a graffiti artist. Well, the magistrate went ballistic and said

865
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: I said, said, and it criticized me for that. I

866
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: was trying to get in. Well, I'll refrase that and

867
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: say he was an exponent, but it wasn't the police,

868
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: and we eventually won that case one hundred and sixty

869
00:48:54,200 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: one charges to nil, which was a great success justin

870
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: to his well, I won't say to his credit, but

871
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 2: he was so convinced of their guilt that he tracked

872
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: down everyone and got them all for something else.

873
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Well I like that type of dog inness.

874
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 2: That was reginess. I've met a lot of police officers,

875
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: but who now, being armed with the technology and the

876
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: ability to track crime, do an amazing job.

877
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well it takes the pressure off to a degree.

878
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: Is a police officer that you can rely on the

879
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: technology and that because before I won't say before, but

880
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: there was a lot of hard graft. You had to

881
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: get the statements and then you've got a brief that's

882
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: not Yeah, there would be I'm saying here just from

883
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: my thoughts, there seemed to be a lot more trials

884
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: because you didn't have that evidence. You didn't have the

885
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: technical evidence of the phone records or things that could

886
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: back it up. So it came down to witness testimony,

887
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: which you'd know and I'm sure you're sure you've exploited

888
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: in a fair way that eyewitness testimony is not always

889
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: that reliable.

890
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: Nor his memory. Yeah, and psychologists will tell you that

891
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: constructed memory can be really fallible. But it's then up

892
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: to the jury to decide whether they believe it or not,

893
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: and that itself is a fallible system. We saw that

894
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: with George pell and a lot of people that have

895
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 2: their views on that. But knowing from my point of view,

896
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: looking at what the High Court said, you know, I

897
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: think the jury didn't make a mistake that other minds

898
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: would differ. Also, having been seeing bishops come to Catholic

899
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: churches and know how many people they drag with them

900
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: and never were alone, I thought it was pretty difficult.

901
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 2: But you've got to look at the system and look

902
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: at the fallibilities and say, well, the police are getting

903
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 2: better tools these days to take suspicion to the point

904
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: of proof, and that's it. And even though I'm a

905
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: criminal defense lawyer, I'm a member of a society as well,

906
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: and in that respect, I expect prosecutors to do their

907
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: job properly. In his hard I don't expect to get

908
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: to cut me any slack because I'm paying them to

909
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 2: do their job. And so, yeah, police are getting better,

910
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: better resources and that's to our advantage.

911
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: What about the court system? Is there things that you

912
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: think could be improved? And you said I think in

913
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: part one that you've believed the system where God is

914
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: as good as any other other system across the Well, yeah, I.

915
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 2: Think what needs to be improved in our court system

916
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 2: is not the system of the determination of guilt or

917
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: the application of court time. When you've got judges and

918
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: juries and magistrates actually doing the sentencing jobs or doing

919
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: the trial jobs. The problem we have got is we're

920
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: over burden with administrative stuff. I was in a court

921
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: the other day out of Campbelltown and the magistrate had

922
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: to deal with one hundred and fifty matters in this list,

923
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 2: and these were all serious matters, and the majority of

924
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 2: them gary were matters that could have been done by

925
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: our registrar. They were just adjourney matters because they weren't

926
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: ready to proceed. Now we're paying big money to have

927
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: a judicial officer sit there and do an administrative job,

928
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 2: and so there are ways and means of cleaning up

929
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: that system which would save money and I think expedite

930
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: the system as well.

931
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I see what you're saying there, because the time

932
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: that appears to be wasted in court going through what

933
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: you've just described is.

934
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's we call them mentions.

935
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: The mentions sit there what's the called on in at

936
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: down in center that wherever they have the mentions and

937
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: you've virtually got to fight your way in to get

938
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: in there.

939
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 2: Oh that's the registrar's court four point four. But they're

940
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: get through the mentions really quickly, by about by eleven thirty,

941
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: it's all over and done with. But it's yeah, but

942
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: sometimes you've got to you've got in the custody courts,

943
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,959
Speaker 2: it's all dealt with by a magistrate, and the magistrates

944
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: are basically just shuffling paper in the journey matters, and

945
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: sometimes you've you've got to go before a magistrate. Fortunately,

946
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: in the Supreme Court we have registrartions who do a

947
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 2: lot of that work. Less there's an issue that needs

948
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: determination by a judge which is just not shifting the

949
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 2: dates or saying this has got to be filed in time,

950
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: you're getting get referred to a judge. It doesn't happen

951
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 2: in the local courts and sometimes in the district courts.

952
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: What would you say when I throw this to you

953
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: that an inquisitorial system is better than adversarial system. Why

954
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 1: because you talked about going into the Royal Commission, which

955
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: is more of an inquisitorial type system in quest than

956
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: as compared to an adversarial system. Do you think there's

957
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: any value in leaning more towards an inquisitorial system rather

958
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: than adversarial system. Not.

959
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: While we are entitled to the right.

960
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: Silence, Okay, that's a stickler for it.

961
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and proof beyond reasonable doubt. And I think that's

962
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: if you're going to take away a person's liberty. And

963
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 2: we're talking about Jarles before. People don't understand is that

964
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: every day you and I can get up and we

965
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: have a choice as to what we do. Now, choices

966
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 2: are limited because life's repetitive, but we don't have to

967
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: go to work if we don't really want it. We

968
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 2: can take a sickie, we get our four weeks holiday.

969
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, we can go and

970
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: have a beer with our mates. But if you'll get

971
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: up and you put on your green shorts and your

972
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: T shirt and you know exactly what you're going to

973
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: be doing for the rest of the day in the

974
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: next four or five or ten years, that's not liberty.

975
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: Okay, and look, I agree with you, and to understand

976
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: the punishment. The punishment has been taken away from society

977
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: and it's not a nice place to be in prison.

978
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: And even the prisoners acknowledge that some people have to

979
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: being there. They're not saying that everyone, Yeah, we should

980
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: open the jail gates. They know that people should be

981
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: in there. What about the jury system. I've had a

982
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: problem sometimes throughout my career where there's a voir the

983
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: year and the jury is excluded because there's evidence that

984
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: might be prejudicial if the jury hears that. The problem

985
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: I have is that we select the jury that there

986
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 1: he is to judge the person's guilt or innocent based

987
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: on all the information available. We're saying the jury have

988
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,879
Speaker 1: got the skill set, the life experience to form a view,

989
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: and then the jury are excluded from so much information

990
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: that I think is relevant. Then perhaps we've got to

991
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: give them the benefit of the doubt that they can

992
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: interpret the weight that should be placed on that evidence.

993
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: Well, that comes back to what I was saying about

994
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: the hey Dad tendency aspect of evidence where there's other

995
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 2: like events that this person has perpetrated, and then the

996
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: jury just in some respects and still don't hear that

997
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 2: all the time. But there are rules of evidence which

998
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 2: are there to protect the person who is entitled to

999
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 2: a fair trial. And as I said before, no system

1000
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 2: is fallible, and that is always up for reassessment and

1001
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: for change. The laws of evidence are constantly changing and

1002
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: constantly being find and you can have faith in the

1003
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 2: fact that if there's a problem that law reform commissions

1004
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 2: are looking at those and trying to make things better. Now,

1005
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: from my point of view, they don't always make them better.

1006
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: And there's been a very very substantial drift in the

1007
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 2: criminal law to taking for granted what the victim says

1008
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 2: is being true and not being able to challenge the victim,

1009
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 2: particularly in sexual assault cases. I have a certain view

1010
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: about that. The me Too movement has a totally different view.

1011
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 2: So you've got to accept what a person says has

1012
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 2: been in gospel. Well, sorry, but there's as many truths

1013
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: come out as a person's mouth as lies do as well,

1014
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: and you should have the opportunity, if you're an accused person,

1015
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: to test the evidence that's being given against you. So

1016
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: I think adversarial systems in that respect.

1017
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: Other way to go okay, fair, fair comment. Would you

1018
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: I see young solsteners especially, I saw them more with

1019
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: the DPP, but I saw it with defense as well.

1020
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: Always seem to be overworked, underpaid, and stressed. It looks

1021
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: like a tough career. But I also see people like

1022
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: yourself that spend lifetime in the career, and I can

1023
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: tell that you've enjoyed your career, and yeah, you think

1024
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: it's a worthwhile vacation. Would you recommend law to people?

1025
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: Strangely, I tell people if someone some young kid comes

1026
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 2: up to me or a prayer and comes up to

1027
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: me and says, I agree, Do you think I think

1028
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 2: Johnny should go into law? I say, listen, doesn't matter

1029
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 2: whether it's law or medicine or any profession. Get a

1030
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: job dealing with people's money, not people's problems. But no,

1031
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: it's professional life as a lawyer is satisfied if you

1032
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: if you understand that it's not going to make you,

1033
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 2: you know, a billionaire, but it's it's a it's it's

1034
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: a worthwhile profession if if you take it and you're

1035
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: actually helping people.

1036
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, well, I see the lawyers that I respect,

1037
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: You can see that they've put in the time and

1038
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: that might be where they're turning up in the middle

1039
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: of a trail and it's clear they've been up all night,

1040
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: not on the drink, but up all night working on

1041
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: the brief and that type of thing. I think we'll

1042
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: wrap it up at this point in time. I just

1043
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: want to say I've really enjoyed sitting down and having

1044
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: that chat with you, for you guys are not as

1045
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: bad as other people are telling me you are.

1046
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: I'll go wait, I'll go await, enlightened and hardened by

1047
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: that character.

1048
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: No, but you've given a good insight, good insight into

1049
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: the world of world of crime, and some funny stories

1050
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: that I think anyone that's spent a career like you

1051
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: have is going to have. And thanks for giving us

1052
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: the opportunity to sit down and have a chat with you.

1053
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: My pleasure.

1054
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: Cheers,