1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: It's Christmas Eve, December twenty four, twenty twenty five. A 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Christmas treat. Today we run a journalist's critical eye over 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: the story of the Nativity. Were these real people, real 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: events or something else. Greg Sheridan, who you might know 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: best as The Australian's Foreign editor, is here for a 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: very special assignment back in time two thousand and twenty 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: five years to the west bank of the Jordan River, 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: the town of Bethlehem. One of my favorite Christmas carols, 10 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: one that I remember my dad singing to me, is 11 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: Once in Royal David City. This exquisite version is by 12 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: the choir of Trinity College, Cambridge. 13 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: I love the. 14 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Simplicity of this hymn. A pure voice reverberating to a 15 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: vaulted ceiling, singing unadorned lyrics any kid can understand. Once 16 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: in Royal David City stood a lowly cattle shed where 17 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: a mother laid her baby in a manger for his bed. 18 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: But what I always wonder around this time of year is, 19 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: regardless of what you believe, how much of this can 20 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: we really accept as literal truth? Was there a lowly 21 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: cattle shed in Bethlehem, the city where a thousand years 22 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: before Christ, King David was born. Did a real baby 23 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: named Jesus have a real mother named Mary? Did three 24 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: wise men visit with gifts? Or is this store and 25 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: maybe much of the Bible just an inspiring allegory. 26 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: Greeg. 27 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Sheridan is the Australian's foreign editor, but he has a 28 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: side hustle as a best selling author of books, including 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: a trilogy about Christianity. In Greg's book Christians, he reads 30 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: the New Testament as a journalist would analyze any text, 31 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: closely analyzing dates, names, and sources. 32 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ himself is one of the best tested figures 33 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: in human history. The oldest physical test we have of 34 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: the New Testament is probably from the end of the 35 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: first century or the beginning of the second century, part 36 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: of John's Gospel discovered in Egypt. In my book Christians, 37 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 2: I devote a chapter to the fact that modern scholarship 38 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: is now validating every single thing we can test in 39 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: the New Testament. There are all kinds of details in 40 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: the New Testament which scholars used to think were wrong, 41 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: and that showed that the New Testament had been written 42 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: much later, like, for example, it talks about Jesus preaching 43 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: in the synagogues of Galilee, and for a long time 44 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: there was no evidence that there had been synagogues in Galilee. 45 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: At the time of Jesus, was thought that Jewish families 46 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: could go up to Jerusalem for the high feasts and 47 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: so on. But then only a couple of decades ago, 48 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: a hotel developer building a new hotel in the town 49 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: of Magdala, where Mary Magdalen came from, discovers a synagogue, 50 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: the ruins of a synagogue unmistakably from Jesus time, and 51 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: since then we've discovered three to four or five more. 52 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: So the gospel was right, the scholarship was wrong. Now, 53 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: in my book Christians, I read the New Testament as 54 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: a journalist, just as a professional journalist with a bias 55 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: to believing that they're likely to be true. And you 56 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: find in them everything you'd expect in eyewitness testimony, a 57 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: little fuzzing us about the details, a tremendous force of 58 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: Jesus personality which would be very very hard to make up. 59 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: And then you have Paul's letters written for sure within 60 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: twenty years of Jesus death, which refer to followers who 61 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: already believe the central elements of jesus story. But then 62 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: you have about Mary. So I think everybody underestimates Mary. 63 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: And Mary's a very smart, audacious, agency filled woman. And 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: as a journalist you trained to trust the sources nearest 65 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: to the story. So do you trust a German biblical 66 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: scholar in the nineteenth century or do you trust Luke, 67 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: who was an eye witness and tells us he was 68 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: the Bob Woodwood of the New Testament, spoke to everybody, 69 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: interviewed everybody, read all the accounts. Now, Luke has the 70 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: most detail about the birth of Jesus and Mary's role 71 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: and so on. And we know that Luke was around 72 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: in the early Christian movement in Jerusalem within a decade 73 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: or two of jesus death. Mary would have been very 74 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: young when she gave birth to Jesus, probably sixteen or something. 75 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: So I make a deduction in my that the source 76 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: for Luke's scoops was Mary. Now there's no proof of that. 77 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: You don't have to believe that. That's just my deduction, 78 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: But that's the conclusion a journalist comes to reading the 79 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: New Testament. As a journalist, I mean, it's like a 80 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: Bob Woodward book. If he knows what the CIA director 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: said to his wife in bed that morning before he 82 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: had breakfast, it's a pretty good chance that the CIA 83 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: director is the source, you know. So it's a pretty 84 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: good chance that Mary is Luke's source. But that gives 85 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: you a new vision of Mary, because not only is 86 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: she full of agency. You know, as soon as she 87 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: hears about her divine mission, she races off on her 88 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: own to her cousin Elizabeth. And for a young teenage 89 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: woman at that time to undertake a journey like that 90 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: on her own shows a lot of hootspar And then 91 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: she shapes how history sees the story because she leaks 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: it all, well, not leaks of it as nothing improper 93 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,239 Speaker 2: about it. It's like John Howard or Golf Whitlam deciding 94 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: to confide in Paul Kelly. You know, they're going to 95 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: choose the best person around to tell the most significant 96 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: story because they want it preserved through all history. So 97 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: Jesus certainly existed. The evidence for that is overwhelming. There 98 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: are lots of non Christian sources who tell you about that. 99 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 2: He certainly was a crucified, under conscious pilot well, he 100 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: sure had a mother, and there's no reason to believe 101 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: that the things in the New Testament about Mary are 102 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: not true. And then I think you can deduce from 103 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: the New Testament that Mary was a very powerful advocate 104 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: and agent of early Christianity. And of course she was 105 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: an incredibly courageous woman. I mean, when Jesus were being 106 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: crucified and dying, all the men were missing in action 107 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: except John. You know, the male apostles were nowhere to 108 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: be seen. But there was a group of women standing 109 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: at the foot of the cross offering solidarity, and her 110 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: chief amongst them was Mary. 111 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: The place names in the Bible are so evocative, particularly 112 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: at this time of year. We of course know of 113 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: Jesus of Nazareth, but he was born in Bethlehem, according 114 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: to the Bible, and that's because Mary and Joseph were 115 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: required to travel there because a census had been ordered 116 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: by the emperor. Do we think that is true? 117 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I do. So. That's one of the great elements 118 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: of historical contention, because there is a reference to another 119 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: census at a different time nearby. And so the scholars say, well, 120 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: clearly there couldn't have been two censuses within a few 121 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: years of each other. So obviously the New Testament writers 122 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: got it wrong. So what we have is the evidence 123 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: of the Gospels, which were all written at the most 124 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: within one lifetime of Jesus. And why would we think 125 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: that's untrue. Now, what's the explanation if there were two censuses, Well, 126 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: the historical records can be wrong. That happened in one 127 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: particular case, a Roman historian got the title of Ponscious 128 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: Pilot wrong, and so for a long time it was 129 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: thought the New Testament was wrong because they had ponscious Pilot. 130 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: But then we discovered a stone inscription of ponscious Pilot 131 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: using the title from the New Testament. So the New 132 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: Testament was right. The later Roman historian, you know, only 133 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: a century or so later, was wrong. So that's possible 134 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: the historical records are mistaken. Or secondly, there could have 135 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: been a local census as opposed to a very big census, 136 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, the census that Mary and Joseph were subjected to. 137 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: Could have been a local census, or there could have 138 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: been some other explanation. But the idea that two thousand 139 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: years later you can theorize an explanation without the facts 140 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: is preposterous. So there's absolutely no reason to doubt the 141 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: facts as given in the New Testament. And it is 142 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: quite possible to harmonize even the small little discrepancies within 143 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: the different accounts of the New Testament. Or you can 144 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: just see it as the normal imprecision of an eyewitness. 145 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: You know, I remember when I proposed to my wife. 146 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 2: I can't remember what type of red wine I was 147 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: drinking at the time. You know. The way to get 148 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: publicity for a new book about Jesus is to say 149 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: I've discovered that Jesus was a martian, and here here 150 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: is the proof. And then the two common mistakes about 151 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: Jesus are either that he was a revolutionary, a political revolutionary. Well, 152 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: that's completely inconsistent with everything he says in the Gospel. 153 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: You know, my kingdom is not of this world. If 154 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: I wanted armies, I could call up armies of angels, 155 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: but I don't want that. Or alternatively, that he was 156 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: a social worker, very kind social worker, would have believed 157 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: in full paid maternity even so if that had been available, 158 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 2: but didn't have any particular theological aspirations, Well, that is 159 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: also completely inconsistent with everything he says. No one comes 160 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: to the Father except through me, and I and the 161 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: Father are one. And then you've got all the early Christians. 162 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: Polycarp Irenaeus ignacious, who knew the Apostles, so Clement of 163 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: Rome knew Peter. These guys were historical characters, and they 164 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: left their own extensive writings, and they knew the Apostles. 165 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: So if it was all made up, then this second 166 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: generation of Christians also had to be part of the conspiracy. 167 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 2: By sixty four AD, thirty years after the death of 168 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Jesus or maybe thirty five years, Nero is burning Christians 169 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: to death in Rome and blaming them for a fire. 170 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: Loads and loads of accounts of that from Roman historians. 171 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: So this conspiracy was You know, if the Gospels weren't 172 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: written until two hundred years later, how did these people 173 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: know about the conspiracy in advance and then go to 174 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: their death to defend a false story which hadn't been 175 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 2: written yet. I mean, it's a vastly more magical thinking 176 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: required to believe it's not true than to believe that 177 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: it's true. 178 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: One of my my daughters questions about Christmas is always 179 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: why did the Three Wise Men give Jesus gold? Franken 180 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: sense and Murrha, not dummies, rattles and nappies or something 181 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: more practical. The three Wise Men, the Majie. They appear 182 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: in the Gospel of Matthew. Why and this is something 183 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: I've always wondered about the Christmas story. Given that Mary 184 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: and Joseph were so poorly connected and so humble that 185 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: they were giving birth in a stable, would they be 186 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: being visited by kind of eminent people with valuable gifts. 187 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: Well, of course, Claire, the Gospel is a miraculous story. 188 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: So this is very difficult for the modern Western mind. 189 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: We are, by the way, in a tiny little coulder 190 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: sac of human experience in not believing in the miraculous. 191 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: The vast majority of human beings alive on our planet 192 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: today believe in the miraculous, believe in God, believe in 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 2: transcendent truth. The three Wise Men were in receipt of 194 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: divine inspiration, that are and send an event was occurring. 195 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 2: I mean, all through the Gospel, people are powerfully attracted 196 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: to the person of Jesus. You know, there's an incident 197 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: where Mary and Joseph take Jesus to the temple to 198 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: the synagogue and the priest says, your son will endure 199 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 2: a terrible suffering, and Mary doesn't want to hear it. 200 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: But this is a prophecy of the crucifixion. Now, you know, 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: if you just believe absolutely that there's no such thing 202 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: as prophecy, nobody can know the future. There are no miracles. 203 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: You know. It could only be if the magi had 204 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: read the postcodes and knew that someone that Herod didn't 205 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: like was around, that they would have gone there. Well, 206 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: you can be very skeptical about it. That's absolutely fair enough, 207 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: perfectly rational position to take. But if you admit the 208 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 2: possibility of God and Jesus as the son of God, 209 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: there's nothing a bit strange in three wise men finding 210 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: an inspiration. If you have a particular cast of mind, 211 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: you can say, well, I like Jesus, but I don't 212 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: believe in the three wise men. Then you've got to 213 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: disbelieve virtually everything else. C. S. Lewis had the famous 214 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: trilemma Jesus was either a madman, a liar, or the 215 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: son of God, and if there's any accuracy in anything 216 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: in the Gospel, he has to be one of those three. 217 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: You can't be a nice person who simply told a 218 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: lot of lies about his Father in Heaven and so 219 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: I mean, if he's telling us lies about that, why 220 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: would you listen to anything that he says coming up? 221 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: So does reading the Bible with a critical eye ruin 222 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: the magic? And did it shake Greg's faith? I'm curious 223 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: Greg about the experience for you of reading the Bible 224 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: as a journalist when you set out on that. Did 225 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: you think that it might shake your faith or strengthen 226 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: your faith? And did it have any impact on what 227 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: you believe or don't believe. 228 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: This is a very strange thing for me to say, Claire, 229 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 2: and it's the most unsatisfactory answer I'm going to give you. 230 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: And it's a question I'm often asked, and I have 231 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: this really blame and pathetic answer to It's I have 232 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 2: never had any trouble believing in Christianity. I've had enormous 233 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: trouble living a Christian life. I fail Christianity in practice, 234 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: not in the theory. You know, I'm good at it 235 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: in theory, I'm very bad at it in practice. So 236 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: spending all the time that I spend in the New 237 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: Testament and in an earlier book in the Old Testament 238 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: was of course tremendous fun. Because the people are so vivid, 239 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: and the stories are so great, you know. I mean, 240 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: journalism is a search for a true story and a 241 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: good story. And you know, I've eventually worked out that 242 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: Christianity is the best story and also the true story. 243 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: So it took me a long time, thirty five years 244 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: in the profession, but you know, even a blind pig 245 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: finds an acorn occasionally, so reading as a journalist just 246 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: reinforced to me how utterly convincing it is. You know, 247 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: it's impossible to read the description of the crucifixion and 248 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: not be moved by it. It could be that a 249 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: master novelist could create something like that. Absolutely I accept 250 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: that that's a possibility, but it would have to be 251 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: an extraordinary level of human creativity to create a story 252 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: like that. Graham Green, you know, who had been a 253 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: communist and an atheist, the famous author before he came 254 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: to Christianity, he said, the Gospel of John it reads 255 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: like a police witness statement. It just has the ring 256 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: of truth about it. It is so graphic, it's so 257 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: full of physical detail. It just couldn't have been made up. 258 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: I mean, somebody was crucified, you know, this is the 259 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: witness of a real crucifixion. And then if they're making 260 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: it up, why did they do all these strange, uncounterintuitive things, 261 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: like the first people to see the risen Jesus are women. Now, 262 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: it's a sad fact that in the ancient world the 263 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: testimony of women was regarded much less seriously than the 264 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: testimony of men. So if you were making the story 265 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: up two hundred years later or something, and it was 266 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: all a hoax, the first person to see Jesus risen 267 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: from the dead would have been some reputable bloke whose 268 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: testamenty instead of which it's Mary Magdalene, who was possessed 269 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: of demons before Jesus cured her, and who was in 270 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: despair at the empty tomb. Where is my Lord? Where 271 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: is my Lord gone? When she confronts the empty tomb, 272 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: So really get in more detail. Just impressed on me 273 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: how abundantly obvious it was as an accurate statement. 274 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: Vices Frank Sinatra performing Silent Night. As with all the 275 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: music in this episode, there's a link to this performance 276 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: in our episode description. Do you have a favorite carol? 277 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: There is something sweet and lovely and optimistic and consoling 278 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: about Christmas and about the carols. I mean a silent Night, 279 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: Holy Night. I mean, I justify anyone not to have 280 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: their spirit stir when they hear that. Carol Sleep. I 281 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: believe in reason. I'm a journalist, but reason is not 282 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: everything in the human apprehension. Paul McCartney's Mother Mary, that 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: is just full of the language of the Gospel, of 284 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: John's Gospel. Mother Mary speaks to me, in my hour 285 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: of darkness, there is still a light the chances of me. Well, 286 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 2: those words are directly from John's Gospel. Let it be, 287 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: Let it be, whisper of wisdom, Let it be. McCartney 288 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: course a genius songwriter, and he knew the most powerful 289 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: material in the world was in the Gospel at Liverpool 290 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: Catholic in the nineteen fifties and sixties. All of those 291 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: words were rattling around his head and what a genius 292 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: he was to make such good use of them. And 293 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: then later on he said it was about his own 294 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: mother Mary, but he's very happy for it to be 295 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: about Mary, the Mother of God. 296 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: It's very moving, Greg, Thank you so much, and happy Christmas. 297 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: Thanks Claire, Happy Christmas to you. Let it be, Let 298 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: it be, there will be answer. Let it be. 299 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: That of course is Let it be by The Beatles 300 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: from their nineteen seventy album by the same name. This 301 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: recording session was brought back to life in an incredible 302 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one documentary series directed by Peter Jackson called 303 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: The Beatles Get Back. If you haven't seen it, check 304 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: it out on Disney Class. Thanks for joining us on 305 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: the front this week, we'll have new episodes for you 306 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: all through summer, the Australians journalists talking about the stories 307 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: they'll be thinking of as life slows down in this 308 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: beautiful time of year. This episode was presented and produced 309 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: by me Claire Harvey, with sound design and editing by 310 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: Tiffany Demack. Our team also includes Kristin Amiot Leat, Sammaglu, 311 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: Joshua Burton, Stephanie Coombs and Jasper Leak, who wrote and 312 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: performed our theme music.