Speaker 1: I got a team. It's the Bloody You Project. It's
Speaker 1: bloody Harps, It's bloody tiff and it's bloody doctor Sam.
Speaker 1: All in the one bloody virtual room. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of swearing in there, the one virtual room at the
Speaker 1: same moment in time. Although technically it's not seven o'clock
Speaker 1: in wa it's five, isn't it? Is it five or four?
Speaker 1: It's five? Right? So two hour diff? When does it
Speaker 1: go back to three hour dift? Do you know? When's that?
Speaker 2: I just wait for the announcements, but I'm not that prepared.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit like that too.
Speaker 2: Hi Tiffany, Hi Kray Anthony, what's going on?
Speaker 1: Are you good? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I am good.
Speaker 3: I'm good.
Speaker 2: Banks.
Speaker 1: Now, I did not know that you were going to
Speaker 1: join us, but you stuck your head up like a
Speaker 1: little fucking meerkat over the virtual wall of the U
Speaker 1: project and just started waving your little pause going let
Speaker 1: me into the studio. And I said to doctor Sam,
Speaker 1: what do you think? She went, Nah? So I overrode
Speaker 1: her because I'm nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sam would never say.
Speaker 1: That that is true. There's only one rude person on
Speaker 1: this podcast, and it's the bloke in the middle. Of
Speaker 1: the screen, Tiff, what have you done? Have you been productive?
Speaker 2: I actually have lots of podcasts today, which.
Speaker 3: Is why i'd put a questionable. I'd just finished run
Speaker 3: in time to get on here. But that's why I
Speaker 3: wasn't sure if i'd edit this one later, because I
Speaker 3: might be a bit podcast brain fried, but very productive
Speaker 3: and even a little little slow plod little run.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, really, what do you Because you're a power athlete.
Speaker 1: Now tell doctor Sam, have you ever seen her in
Speaker 1: a bloody crop top? You probably haven't. No, I mean
Speaker 1: this with love. She says that herself spilt like a dude, and.
Speaker 2: I'm getting jacked, Doc.
Speaker 1: What's brought on the running?
Speaker 3: Well? Well, I'm just reading reducing either a little just
Speaker 3: a short run and or a little hit workout once
Speaker 3: or twice a week, just because I really value that
Speaker 3: cardiovascular style of training and it feels good. I just
Speaker 3: don't want to go back to doing too much of it.
Speaker 3: On top of the training, I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Goodie gum drops and doctor Sam, we spoke briefly last
Speaker 1: time you hit the gym affair bit you do some
Speaker 1: weight like, what's your kind of I'm sure it varies,
Speaker 1: but give or take what's your weekly kind of commitment
Speaker 1: to exercise.
Speaker 2: I love doing three low body days often Monday, Wednesday, Friday,
Speaker 2: and then two upper body days, often Tuesday Thursday. But
Speaker 2: then I can't stay away on the weekend either, so
Speaker 2: I just try to shuffle it around. But pretty much, yeah,
Speaker 2: five weight training days I love, and like you, Chip,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to just add in a bit more cardio
Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm really unbalanced in that way.
Speaker 2: Kind of neglected my cardio recently, so I've been adding
Speaker 2: in more walks, trying to get to ten thousand a
Speaker 2: day steps today.
Speaker 1: Were you were you remotely athletic at school? Were you
Speaker 1: somewhat coordinated? What?
Speaker 2: He never I was that student that would be like
Speaker 2: I will write lines and not just sport. It was
Speaker 2: actually motherhood that really got my button to gear because
Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be that mum that
Speaker 2: can run around the park with my kids, and so
Speaker 2: I have to there be this person racing exercise. And
Speaker 2: then I actually just fell in love with weight training.
Speaker 2: So that worked out really well. And I still feel
Speaker 2: old when I run around the park with my kids.
Speaker 2: So I'm getting that.
Speaker 1: I think I know, But can I ask how old
Speaker 1: you are, feel free not to answer that question.
Speaker 2: But also, I am thirty five next month.
Speaker 1: How young does she look here? I know, babyface, I know,
Speaker 1: and I'm not even being nice, like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know anymore. I can't tell. But like I say,
Speaker 1: fifteen year olds who look to me like twenty two,
Speaker 1: but Sam's thirty five and looks twenty five. When you
Speaker 1: get especially with young with I guess teenage girls and
Speaker 1: young women when they put on makeup and they're out
Speaker 1: and about and dressed up with makeup, it's kind of
Speaker 1: hard to tell, you know, whereas with teenage boys and
Speaker 1: men it's a little bit easier.
Speaker 2: I think, Oh, I feel like these days I can't tell,
Speaker 2: Like I'm never accurate, you know, like back then fifty
Speaker 2: year olds then versus now is so different too. So
Speaker 2: I just I can't kick up look at j Lo like.
Speaker 1: She's I think she may have a team that keeps
Speaker 1: that happening. Plus she's And then I don't want to
Speaker 1: say anything, I'll get myself in trouble, but yeah, she is,
Speaker 1: she is. I see. Even when I want to say
Speaker 1: something compliment you, I go, can I say that? Can
Speaker 1: I say she's attractive. Is that illegal these days? What
Speaker 1: is that? Six to twelve months? She's illegal. You're going
Speaker 1: to jail. I mean you're she's she's attractive, You're going
Speaker 1: to jail. No, she's she's done. But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people in that, you know, Brad Pitt. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say this, but Brad Pitt and I are
Speaker 1: the same age. Look at my head. I look like
Speaker 1: a fuck some kind of marsupial in a fucking you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a Brad Pitt still looks like a fucking hot
Speaker 1: thirty five year old.
Speaker 2: Well you just said that they have teams, right, I
Speaker 2: mean whole team dedicated to them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, good for them, Good for them. So we're
Speaker 1: chatting about of course, Dr Sam is one of our regulars.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I guess we have quite a we probably have ten
Speaker 1: twelve regulars now. And of course you are doctor Sam Case.
Speaker 1: You are a psychologist, among other things, specialized primary sorry,
Speaker 1: you've got a PhD. And you're a therapist, all right,
Speaker 1: and you specialize in kids and play their therapy. But
Speaker 1: also you you know, your knowledge is expansive. And I
Speaker 1: sent you a message this afternoon because I had a message.
Speaker 1: By the way, if you have an idea for a
Speaker 1: topic for a show, just go to the U Project
Speaker 1: podcast Facebook page, the U Project Podcast Facebook page and go, hey, Harps,
Speaker 1: what about this? But before you do that, try to
Speaker 1: make sure that we haven't done it thirteen times already.
Speaker 1: But if you've got an idea that's a little bit
Speaker 1: different or fresh or original and it falls loosely within
Speaker 1: the kind of the walls of human behavior and psychology
Speaker 1: and thinking and doing better and personal development and self
Speaker 1: awareness and management and all that shit, yes, send us.
Speaker 1: Send it through. Because Johnny Dunn, who is a guy
Speaker 1: from Queensland, I don't know if I can say his profession,
Speaker 1: but well he did put it on. He did put
Speaker 1: it on. Maybe I better not he put it on
Speaker 1: the Facebook page. But let's just say he has an
Speaker 1: important job, works under a lot of pressure, and he
Speaker 1: may drive a cop car. But other than that, I'm
Speaker 1: giving you nothing. There's no hints. No, he did say
Speaker 1: it on the page. Tift done look at me like that.
Speaker 1: So he wanted us, he wanted us to talk about burnout.
Speaker 1: And I went, so, I send you a message today
Speaker 1: and went, is that in your wheelhouse? And you went, well, actually,
Speaker 1: Jumbo I can do that, So what what can you? Firstly,
Speaker 1: what's the difference between burnout and mental fatigue and stress
Speaker 1: and anxiety or these all intersecting variables that live under
Speaker 1: the one roof and their first cousins or something.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like it's a really subjective term when
Speaker 2: you think about it, right, A lot of people you
Speaker 2: know will have different views about it. I like to
Speaker 2: think of burnout is you've reached your capacity, Like you
Speaker 2: feel like you're completely and utterly mentally fatigued. You've lost
Speaker 2: that compassion perhaps for your job, You've lost a drive,
Speaker 2: you've lost the motivation, you've become really negative about your role.
Speaker 2: You don't see how this will get better. And quite
Speaker 2: often a lot of people I would say a crispy
Speaker 2: where they're like on the path towards burn out, and
Speaker 2: they stay in that crispiness for ages, and then something
Speaker 2: often kind of pushes them over the edge to that burnout,
Speaker 2: and often that looks like either you know, having to
Speaker 2: take leave from their job, stress leave or quitting or
Speaker 2: actually not being able to function. So I would say
Speaker 2: burnout is probably reaching that point right, But right up
Speaker 2: until then, there's that crispiness it's like, are they bent out?
Speaker 2: Are they on the road to burn out? I think
Speaker 2: it's really subjective.
Speaker 1: Though, and what are the kind of I might be
Speaker 1: heading towards that signs and symptoms where maybe I need
Speaker 1: to take a day off, week off, a month off.
Speaker 1: Maybe I need another job, maybe I need a different environment.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's kind of what might be bubbling
Speaker 1: up that we can be aware of so we don't
Speaker 1: just keep pushing the accelerator to the floorboard.
Speaker 2: I would say that exhaustion both mentally and physically, that
Speaker 2: loss of motivation and drive for the job, struggling even
Speaker 2: to get out of bed, or struggling to engage in
Speaker 2: activities that would bring you joy before, but now you
Speaker 2: just don't have any desire to do anything outside work
Speaker 2: because you're so exhausted. I'd say even in the role,
Speaker 2: getting really cynical or negative about the role, not seeing
Speaker 2: any change, like feeling like it's just not rewarding, you know,
Speaker 2: lost that kind of either passion for the job or
Speaker 2: just you know, wanting to be there and do the role,
Speaker 2: like kind of you're physically there, but you've checked out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon to feel free to jump in. I reckon.
Speaker 1: Like in life, a lot of things have a used
Speaker 1: by date. You know, bread's got to use by date,
Speaker 1: milk's got to use by date. But I think also
Speaker 1: jobs or careers, or environments, or obviously relationships or even
Speaker 1: training protocols where you know, the way that I trained
Speaker 1: worked really great for a while, and then it became
Speaker 1: less efficient and less effective. So I needed to ramp
Speaker 1: it up or change. I needed some variety or some
Speaker 1: progression or some reduction in recovery time. I needed to
Speaker 1: manipulate the variables to get a different response or in
Speaker 1: my case, so I started in gyms in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1: I started personal training in eighty six. I set up
Speaker 1: my first center in nine point ninety. So by the
Speaker 1: time I sold my gym I started ninety two, it
Speaker 1: was about thirty two or three years later. And by
Speaker 1: the time I sold it, I wasn't burnt out, but
Speaker 1: I was just getting no joy. I didn't you know.
Speaker 1: I still love helping people, but I felt like I
Speaker 1: was I was not only was I not growing, I
Speaker 1: kind of and maybe I wasn't, but I felt like
Speaker 1: I was going backwards. Because how many times can you
Speaker 1: talk about bums and legs and carbs and adjust a
Speaker 1: bloody bike seat and hand someone a pair of dumbbells
Speaker 1: and set the bloody treadmill up, and not that they're
Speaker 1: bad things, but after you do that sixty seven million times,
Speaker 1: you know, I think you need some kind for me anyway.
Speaker 1: I needed a different environment or a different job, or
Speaker 1: to talk to different people or think about different things,
Speaker 1: or to be able to keep expanding and learning, because
Speaker 1: it just for me. It got to the point where
Speaker 1: I didn't hate it, but I reckon another six months,
Speaker 1: I would have hated it gone. Even though it's a
Speaker 1: good job. Yeah, yeah, And it.
Speaker 2: Doesn't necessarily be a bad job, right. Every job is,
Speaker 2: you know, susceptible off this as well. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the helping professions, right, NASA's teachers, people
Speaker 2: working in a therapist even it doesn't mean that the
Speaker 2: job's bad or that the workplace is bad, but it's
Speaker 2: a combination of things, right, that can really add to
Speaker 2: the loads. So I think we're you said there around change.
Speaker 2: I think quite often people are really resistance to change
Speaker 2: change and that kind of contributes to to them reaching
Speaker 2: that point.
Speaker 1: That's a good point, because people are resistant to change
Speaker 1: but change sometimes is going to be the solution to
Speaker 1: the burnout, or at least part of the solution. Right.
Speaker 2: Well, change inevitable, and I think often people don't want that,
Speaker 2: right They just want, like I just want a job
Speaker 2: and I want to get my head around it, and
Speaker 2: then that is it, and then things change in their
Speaker 2: environment and then that would require them to adapt, and
Speaker 2: I think there's that resistance to do that. And like
Speaker 2: you said, I think change is necessary. It's inevita part
Speaker 2: of life. And I think if the more that we
Speaker 2: can embrace it, even in a playful way of like
Speaker 2: what else could I be doing? And what you know,
Speaker 2: what about this could really shift? And what could I
Speaker 2: actually tweak to make this a better fit for me?
Speaker 2: That can be playful, that can be exciting, That can
Speaker 2: you know when we actually are open to exploring the possibilities.
Speaker 2: But quite often we don't feel that way.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: We're trying to resist that change. We're trying to push
Speaker 2: through just work harder. Yeah, we think it's a time
Speaker 2: management thing rather than an energy management issue as well.
Speaker 1: And also it's a how do I respond individually to
Speaker 1: this situation or this stress or this stimulus or this
Speaker 1: event or like I was talking this morning at the
Speaker 1: cafe with a made of mind Deno shout out to Dean.
Speaker 1: He's a fiery and we're just talking about Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: talking about, broadly speaking, people's ability to perform under pressure.
Speaker 1: So whether or not you're a cop, whether or not
Speaker 1: you're a policeman or a nurse, or a doctor, or
Speaker 1: an elite athlete or a soldier or you know, anyone
Speaker 1: putting themselves into situations that are not comfortable, not certain,
Speaker 1: not necessarily predictable, maybe not familiar, but being able to
Speaker 1: just go in there and do what you need to
Speaker 1: do and to manage the fear of the anxiety, the biology,
Speaker 1: the psychology, the emotion, all of it. Like some people
Speaker 1: do great with that, some people melt down with that.
Speaker 1: But that's again, it's less about what's going on and
Speaker 1: more about how the individual navigates or deals with personally
Speaker 1: what's going on, right, well, how.
Speaker 2: They approach it. I think you've made a really good point, Like,
Speaker 2: look at an athlete right there, for example, gearing up
Speaker 2: for a race, and so they're training in a certain
Speaker 2: way and it's super intense and they're looking at their
Speaker 2: nutrition and then they do the race, they have to
Speaker 2: obviously highly perform, but then they have this period of
Speaker 2: rest I'm sure right where their training looks different and
Speaker 2: their nutrition looks different, and their recovery is their main focus.
Speaker 2: So no one actually works at a high level twenty
Speaker 2: four seven like they're going to go through cycles. But
Speaker 2: what happens in workplace is people don't go through cycles.
Speaker 2: They just try and perform at their top the whole time.
Speaker 2: They don't see the value in resting and recovering and
Speaker 2: still doing the things that bring us during all of that. Yes,
Speaker 2: their intense high periods and stuff in those jobs, but
Speaker 2: it should come with after that intense periods of rest
Speaker 2: and recovery. But they don't create space in their lives
Speaker 2: for that. You know, their weekends are just filled with
Speaker 2: meeting other people's needs. It's or you know, doing all
Speaker 2: the social things that they feel like they have to do,
Speaker 2: the obligations, rather than looking at actually what they need
Speaker 2: to sustain themselves, to preserve themselves so that they can
Speaker 2: continue working at that high level.
Speaker 1: M and I guess to be able to understand your
Speaker 1: mind and your body and your emotions and your nervous
Speaker 1: system and your responses to whatever's going on, you know,
Speaker 1: to be able to go, oh, my body is telling
Speaker 1: me I need some time off, Like my nervous system,
Speaker 1: my blood pressure, my energy, my emotions, whatever are just
Speaker 1: going and whether or not I need a day or
Speaker 1: two off, or whether or not I need to go
Speaker 1: somewhere else, do something else, whatever the change is. But
Speaker 1: I think that ability to be able to tap into
Speaker 1: the wisdom of our own body, that's always like sending
Speaker 1: these messages and pay attention, you know, like that's a
Speaker 1: big out of it too, I guess, But we don't
Speaker 1: tend to do that, no.
Speaker 2: Because we haven't really seen that role modeled a lot,
Speaker 2: either in society or in our families, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of like not just being busy and pushing through
Speaker 2: rest was often maybe you know, you know, it had
Speaker 2: to be earned, right or where kind of Again, busyness
Speaker 2: is a sign of like, oh yeah, good, you've got
Speaker 2: lots on your plate. You know, you're helping out all
Speaker 2: these people. So I think you're right, we're not in
Speaker 2: tuned with our own signals in our body because we
Speaker 2: haven't really been shown that. You know, how do we
Speaker 2: know how to trust ourselves? How do we know when
Speaker 2: we need rest? And how do we know when to
Speaker 2: push through? Like that's that self trust right that we
Speaker 2: often talk about.
Speaker 1: So TIV in the pH three sixty framework, that addresses
Speaker 1: quite a bit of this stuff too, doesn't it Like
Speaker 1: knowing how your body and your brain and your energy
Speaker 1: kind of works. Can you explain just simply and quickly
Speaker 1: what Sam's writing it down what pH three sixty is.
Speaker 1: It's not you're not meant to know what it is.
Speaker 1: Just give her a snapshot and the listeners of what
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 3: It's personalized health, and it brings together a whole range
Speaker 3: of different biology, medicine, genes, DNA, a whole range of
Speaker 3: other I guess sciences come together chronobiology, So understanding for
Speaker 3: people's actual biology, what environments, what chronobiology, what type of
Speaker 3: work people they need to be around, the type of socializing.
Speaker 3: So it's just understanding how you interact with your environment
Speaker 3: and what impact it has on your stress.
Speaker 2: That's really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a guy on tell I'll shut up,
Speaker 1: I'll get that. Tell doctor Sam about doctor Cam who
Speaker 1: he is, and a little bit more about things because
Speaker 1: our listeners might want to go and do the test
Speaker 1: as well. I reckon Sam would like to do the test.
Speaker 3: Doctor Cam's incredible and he's the found one of the
Speaker 3: founders of the company, and you can go if you
Speaker 3: just look up free test PhD sixty free test. There's
Speaker 3: a free test that you can do, or you can
Speaker 3: do a paid version. Get They've got an app called
Speaker 3: Shay Personalized Health, so you get a whole personalized app
Speaker 3: that tells you it's basically it's got AI now, so
Speaker 3: you've got like a little virtual AI trainer. It tells
Speaker 3: you what to eat, when to eat, when to train,
Speaker 3: how to train, how to move digestion. It tells you
Speaker 3: exactly what individual foods you need and why, and that
Speaker 3: changes seasonally as well as overall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, it sounds far better when Cam doctor Cam.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, you're doing a good job. What
Speaker 1: type are you? What type are you again, tiv.
Speaker 3: I'm an activator. There's six main health types, and within
Speaker 3: those six main health types, there's a three hundred and
Speaker 3: sixty degree circle of different types that come into it.
Speaker 3: But the main health type categories will talk about what
Speaker 3: hormone was most dominant as you're in embryo, So for myself,
Speaker 3: it was the sex hormones of adrenaline, and testosterone, so
Speaker 3: that dictates how your body forms and grows at that stage.
Speaker 3: So activators will generally be more inclined to be more muscular,
Speaker 3: lean and muscular, more competitive, more aggressive, more reactive, and
Speaker 3: less detail focused and early morning people like your crossfitters,
Speaker 3: your early morning trainers. And then you've got on the
Speaker 3: other end of the spectrum, you've got a guardian. They
Speaker 3: are driven by the prolactant as the hormone, so they're
Speaker 3: very nurturing, like they're a lot of paramedics, a lot
Speaker 3: of nurses, very nurturing people. They need to have stress
Speaker 3: free mornings. And yeah, the whole the timing that you
Speaker 3: do everything in your day within those hormones, how those
Speaker 3: hormones flow throughout the day.
Speaker 2: Wow, So you found it really useful for you big
Speaker 2: time and especially.
Speaker 1: For Sorry sorry, I was going to say a guardian slide.
Speaker 1: The labradors of the group.
Speaker 3: They so are connectors, actually connectors are they're next to it,
Speaker 3: and the connector is called the puppy dog. They each
Speaker 3: have an animal, and the guardian is the bear, and
Speaker 3: the activator is the cat, and the connector is the
Speaker 3: puppy dog.
Speaker 2: Because they're all about fun. So a connector.
Speaker 3: So take myself and a connector, for example, we do
Speaker 3: a similar style of exercise, but a connector needs to
Speaker 3: do that in a group with people. They're people, folcus,
Speaker 3: they have to do everything has to be having fun
Speaker 3: and connecting with people, whereas an activator is very driven
Speaker 3: to compete and perform and like punch people in the
Speaker 3: face and do CrossFit and win.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I don't need
Speaker 2: anyone and I've got.
Speaker 3: This yeah yeah, And it's really fascinating, Like I do it.
Speaker 3: I do coaching with people, and it's not just physical
Speaker 3: like I've done corporate coaching with people, where to understand
Speaker 3: how you work and how potentially other people work, how
Speaker 3: you communicate with someone who you know is not.
Speaker 2: Like you, yeah yeah, and appreciating those differences true, right,
Speaker 2: and seeing that as strengths, like for them to lend
Speaker 2: their own body and what would work for them. Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of the first things I learned about myself was
Speaker 3: that idea of letting go.
Speaker 2: Of I thought, am I just do I have? Am
Speaker 2: I obsessed with exercise?
Speaker 3: Because I would train in the morning, and if I
Speaker 3: trained in the morning, I'd finish work and I'd be like.
Speaker 2: I feel like training again?
Speaker 3: Am I just obsessed? Do I have an eating disorder
Speaker 3: where I just eat and train? But activators, their primary
Speaker 3: lifestyle thing is to move, So they want to move
Speaker 3: in the morning and then they want to move again.
Speaker 3: The body is built to move. That's the most important
Speaker 3: lifestyle factor is moving, yea, which is why I want
Speaker 3: to bring that explosive movement into my days because it's
Speaker 3: a part of what's hardwired.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know that that would wait for you then, right,
Speaker 2: the more religind you are.
Speaker 1: With that, Yeah, what am I in this framework again? TIV?
Speaker 1: What am I?
Speaker 2: I can't remember?
Speaker 3: What you?
Speaker 1: Doctor? I don't know, doctor, cam Baby, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I reckon, I reckon. I'm a hybrid.
Speaker 2: I reckon, You're a hybrid? There such thing? Do they
Speaker 2: have my prints at all of them?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah, So I'm also very on the cusp of
Speaker 3: a crusader, which Cam is a crusader. So you can
Speaker 3: within that, like I said, that's six three hund and
Speaker 3: sixty degree circle, you can sit right on the cusp.
Speaker 3: So the look of an activator who's at that end
Speaker 3: of the spectrum as opposed to the other end of
Speaker 3: their little wedge of the circle.
Speaker 2: You can look very different.
Speaker 1: What's a crusader? What tell us about them?
Speaker 2: Crusader? They are very data driven, data and analytical and
Speaker 2: gold driven. And they're often quite.
Speaker 3: Tall and lean with big hands, long slender fingers. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and built for endurance, so they're like great cyclists, great
Speaker 3: great for endurance type exercise.
Speaker 1: So no crusaders here.
Speaker 2: Then I am on the cast points for that.
Speaker 1: Wow, don't you reckon? Doctor Sam? That like trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how we work as one of the biggest
Speaker 1: challenges from a health and wellness like and like with
Speaker 1: what Tip's talking about, but just knowing if I have
Speaker 1: six hours sleep, I'm fucked. If I have seven to
Speaker 1: seven and a half, I'm good. If I eat after
Speaker 1: nine o'clock, I sheet or seven or eight o'clock I
Speaker 1: sleep like crap. If I do this, it works. If
Speaker 1: I do that, it doesn't work. Because we're always getting data,
Speaker 1: right yep.
Speaker 2: It's like life is like one big experiment, and when
Speaker 2: we're in different situations too, in different seasons of life
Speaker 2: where you know, getting new data. So I really like
Speaker 2: that approach to life. It's on the site being a
Speaker 2: researcher and like you said, you're just looking at that
Speaker 2: data and you keep using that to inform what you
Speaker 2: do next next steps.
Speaker 1: So are there any from a clinical point of view
Speaker 1: or a therapeutic point of view when you're talking with
Speaker 1: dealing with helping people who are in burnout or heading
Speaker 1: towards burnout? And I know there's no three step plan,
Speaker 1: but what are the some of the things you would
Speaker 1: talk about or perhaps want to put in place.
Speaker 2: I'd get first, I guess to their core beliefs. Quite
Speaker 2: that quite often drives a lot of their burnout type behaviors,
Speaker 2: right where they stop doing the things that bring them
Speaker 2: joy and they keep pushing through and they think they
Speaker 2: need to work harder and if only they could just
Speaker 2: get on top of that to do list. And I
Speaker 2: think that comes from a lot of those core beliefs,
Speaker 2: right if, like there's something wrong with me, I need
Speaker 2: to be able to be more efficient, I need to
Speaker 2: work harder. You know, people need me. I can't let
Speaker 2: them down. I can't fail at this, like I should
Speaker 2: be able to do this. All of those kind of
Speaker 2: beliefs come into play and how they see themselves as well.
Speaker 2: So I really kind of tap into that, and then
Speaker 2: I guess really get them to go back to a
Speaker 2: time where they didn't feel like that what was happening
Speaker 2: in their life, what was working for them, because quite
Speaker 2: often they have their own answers right where they go, oh,
Speaker 2: I was like exercising heaps, and I was doing all
Speaker 2: those activities that I loved, and I was dancing, and
Speaker 2: I was spending time in the garden. And I've stopped
Speaker 2: doing all of those things. And so they're like a
Speaker 2: little key indicators right off, like, okay, how do we
Speaker 2: get some of that back, even when you're fitling like this, right,
Speaker 2: how do we start to go towards that and make
Speaker 2: little steps? And then even talking about the basics, right
Speaker 2: the sleep, the nutrition, I mean, that's all the fundamental stuffs.
Speaker 2: And we can't think straight when we're on burnout. So
Speaker 2: that's quite often the problem. It's like, first they need
Speaker 2: to take a step back. So usually, especially when they
Speaker 2: are coming to therapy, quite often that first step is
Speaker 2: to take a bit of a break right from work,
Speaker 2: whether it's a few days or weeks, so that they
Speaker 2: can kind of recalibrate, they can actually think clearly, because
Speaker 2: when they think clearly, they end up having right those
Speaker 2: next steps of what they need to do and what
Speaker 2: they want to do with their career. But when they're
Speaker 2: in it, they can't. You know, they're in survival mode.
Speaker 2: They're super stressed, and when we feel like that will
Speaker 2: be Yeah, it's really hard to get our perspective, get
Speaker 2: our bearings.
Speaker 1: Is it a good idea? Do you think to want
Speaker 1: to train yourself to be able to deal with pressure
Speaker 1: more effectively? Like you know, if you know that you
Speaker 1: have pretty regular meltdowns in situations where other people perhaps
Speaker 1: don't write and there's no self loathing in this, just
Speaker 1: self awareness. So is it good for me to intentionally
Speaker 1: and by me, I mean anyone listening put myself in
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable in an intelligent, strategic way, not a silly,
Speaker 1: reckless way, but to put myself in discomfort intentionally, or
Speaker 1: to put myself in a place where I feel under pressure,
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit of stress, I feel a
Speaker 1: little bit of tension. Is it good strategically do that?
Speaker 1: So that? Because it seems to me that's inevitable in life. Right,
Speaker 1: hard ship's coming, it's just a matter of when. So
Speaker 1: do we need to try in ourselves to deal with
Speaker 1: the hard shit? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I quite often think the exercise is one of those
Speaker 2: ways that we do that. Right, we have to show
Speaker 2: up and we're pushing ourselves and we're connected with that,
Speaker 2: and we're choosing to do that, just like I'm sure
Speaker 2: tif you know you're choosing to live those ways or
Speaker 2: choosing to push yourselves. So I think that's one element.
Speaker 2: But you're right in terms of the problem solving things,
Speaker 2: I think this is when reflection can be really helpful
Speaker 2: in being able to look at ways that we can
Speaker 2: build a life where we are exposing ourselves to these
Speaker 2: little things like thinking about Okay, career wise, right, they're
Speaker 2: band to act, hate what they do. Okay, how are
Speaker 2: we going to start to make steps towards doing something
Speaker 2: and we like to do What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Is that taking on additional study or is it taking
Speaker 2: on you know, something on the side so that you
Speaker 2: are getting out of that and yet it takes work
Speaker 2: and it's that discipline and everything, but it's that small
Speaker 2: exposure to hard things and it's actually going to make
Speaker 2: life easier. It's almost like doing the hard things now right,
Speaker 2: makes it a little bit easier in the long run.
Speaker 2: But you're right all about there are different problems and
Speaker 2: we have to get comfortable with solving them but knowing
Speaker 2: that they're going to be more right.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a gym fit versus life fit, you know,
Speaker 1: like life is at times hard and unfair and uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and uncertain and unpleasant, and so let's do some stuff
Speaker 1: that we maybe don't need to do, but maybe a
Speaker 1: good idea to lean into every now and then so
Speaker 1: we can build some of those skills and some of
Speaker 1: that mindset and some of that resilience, some of that
Speaker 1: emotional resilience, so when the shit hits the fan, we
Speaker 1: don't capitulate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of things comes into play
Speaker 2: with that, right, But it's almost like that saying choose
Speaker 2: your heart. You know, being overweight is hard, but being
Speaker 2: fit is hard too, Like all these things are difficult,
Speaker 2: and so when we are choosing our own little battles,
Speaker 2: it does make it a bit more fun because you're like,
Speaker 2: this is going to be hard, but I'm choosing to
Speaker 2: do this. I'm choosing to retrain so I can move careers,
Speaker 2: or I'm choosing to say no to people that you
Speaker 2: know it's going to be bad, and you know people
Speaker 2: are going to be just point with me, But I
Speaker 2: know that this is better off than me, so I
Speaker 2: can get the rest I need. Yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: it's definitely multifaceted.
Speaker 1: With that choose your hard. Thanks you just gave us
Speaker 1: the title of the show. Thanks for that.
Speaker 3: How often, Sam, do you think that people's career bears
Speaker 3: the brunt of the burnout when maybe it's the rest
Speaker 3: of their lifestyle that's the cause.
Speaker 2: Definitely it bears a brunt because they probably spend most
Speaker 2: of their time there, right, you know, yeah, forty hours
Speaker 2: a week or whatever. But you're right, it's what is
Speaker 2: happening outside that's quite often, You're very right. People are
Speaker 2: fixated on Okay, this is a workplace, it's my boss,
Speaker 2: you know, he's been like this, or it's the system,
Speaker 2: or it's the policies, and they don't see that. On
Speaker 2: the weekends, you know, again, they're going to things that
Speaker 2: they hate doing and they're thinking about, right, keeping everyone
Speaker 2: else happy, and they're just busy and they're overloaded, and
Speaker 2: they're cleaning and they're cooking, and they're doing all these
Speaker 2: chores and they're not doing anything that they're like. So
Speaker 2: that often is you're right where we should start, because
Speaker 2: that's what we have more control over. We don't have
Speaker 2: control over all the things in our workplace and all
Speaker 2: the people, but when we feel so powerless in our
Speaker 2: own lives personally, of course we're going to be picking
Speaker 2: apart professionally, right, what's going on? And that's amplified. They'll
Speaker 2: just put it into perspective your workplace when you get
Speaker 2: more power in your own life, because then you're really
Speaker 2: you're more solid with who you are and then you're
Speaker 2: going to work and that's a role versus it being
Speaker 2: an identity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about self awareness? Awareness of how you are
Speaker 1: and who you are and trying to have a level
Speaker 1: of perspective and objectivity, which is difficult when we're thinking
Speaker 1: and talking about ourselves. But self awareness versus self loathing,
Speaker 1: because it feels like they're very close sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think we can mistake one for the.
Speaker 2: Other, definitely, because I think what people come to find
Speaker 2: is when they undertake this self awareness, right and when
Speaker 2: they're looking you know, they're journaling and they're thinking about
Speaker 2: all these things, they actually have a really critical way
Speaker 2: of looking at themselves and so that comes out. So
Speaker 2: then they equate self awareness with that self loathing because
Speaker 2: they're like, it must be all my fault, and that's
Speaker 2: how they approach it versus seeing, actually, I've got this
Speaker 2: is my life. I'm responsible in fint of my life,
Speaker 2: which means I have influence over it. That's a more
Speaker 2: empowering way to look at it, and then it gets
Speaker 2: us to take action, right, rather than it's all my fault.
Speaker 2: Now I need to do something about it. So I
Speaker 2: think it's how we're approach it. Quite often our default
Speaker 2: is being really critical and blaming ourselves or blaming someone else,
Speaker 2: and that's why we shy away from self awareness. And
Speaker 2: also self awareness inherently doesn't change our life if we're
Speaker 2: not going to take action. I can sit here, you know,
Speaker 2: for ages and talk about all these things, right, if
Speaker 2: all these patterns that I'm aware of, But if I
Speaker 2: leave here and not do anything different and not shift anything,
Speaker 2: then nothing's going to change. Just remains in my head.
Speaker 2: And then it becomes exhausting. And that's another thing that
Speaker 2: actually contributes to burnout, as when we so much in
Speaker 2: our head and we're thinking about all the things that
Speaker 2: we could be doing and should be doing, and then
Speaker 2: taking zero action.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting every time not every time, but oftentimes
Speaker 1: when I post something like a put up thing on
Speaker 1: I think it was LinkedIn This Morning that said something like,
Speaker 1: sometimes we don't need to learn something new, which might
Speaker 1: empower us, but rather to unlearn something old, which has
Speaker 1: disempowered us. Right, And then I wrote that there are
Speaker 1: times when I just wanted to be right, and when
Speaker 1: I was you know, probably still, you know, and I
Speaker 1: was operating out of fear or ego or something else,
Speaker 1: and I just, you know, I was kind of unteachable
Speaker 1: in some things because I thought I knew right. So
Speaker 1: when you think that whatever that topic or subject matter is,
Speaker 1: you know you have one hundred percent knowledge and truth,
Speaker 1: then everyone who doesn't agree with you in the world
Speaker 1: do you automatically think is wrong? Right, Well, that's a
Speaker 1: big kind of commitment. And anyway, this lady wrote, God
Speaker 1: bless her. She's like, oh, no, like you're great, You're
Speaker 1: being too hard on yourself, you know, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I actually was just telling the truth. Like it's very
Speaker 1: like I think we're so used to not wanting to
Speaker 1: obviously run anyone down, which is nice, although we are
Speaker 1: pretty fucking good as a species at running people down.
Speaker 1: But you know, like when you when you lean in
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm sometimes I'm a dumb fuck, and
Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing. And it's just literally, this
Speaker 1: is what I'm doing, and it is me being either
Speaker 1: lazy or cynical, or arrogant or fearful or And then
Speaker 1: people think that's self loathing. I'm like, no, that's just knowledge,
Speaker 1: that's just self awareness. I'm not saying I'm a bad human,
Speaker 1: I can't get better, I'm a piece of shit. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying saying that. I'm just saying me anyway. I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about anyone else but me. Sometimes I do
Speaker 1: stuff which is just not great. Sometimes I am self righteous,
Speaker 1: Sometimes I am arrogant. Sometimes I make bad decisions and
Speaker 1: get bad outcomes. This is all just data. This is
Speaker 1: just true. This is not me hating on myself. It's
Speaker 1: a tricky area to really have self awareness, and some
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you become aware of is pretty negative.
Speaker 2: That's where the growth happens. It's uncomfortable, it's not all
Speaker 2: the good things, right, it's actually sitting with a trumpet
Speaker 2: of this is the pattern. Wish it wasn't, but it is.
Speaker 2: Do we do with that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think, and I say this a
Speaker 1: bit and people argue with me. But because I wasn't
Speaker 1: naturally like, you know, great athlete, all those things, great,
Speaker 1: academic great, because I was kind of pretty average. I
Speaker 1: was really motivated to work harder and try harder and
Speaker 1: be more because if I didn't try harder and work harder,
Speaker 1: and because I didn't have the same level of potential
Speaker 1: or skill or talent you know, or whatever, athleticism or
Speaker 1: genetics or as most not all, but a lot of
Speaker 1: people that I went to school with, right, So I
Speaker 1: just had to learn to go, well, this is going
Speaker 1: to suck for a while, but that's all right, because
Speaker 1: it eventually it won't suck and I'll go from being
Speaker 1: bad at it maybe to being somewhere between or right
Speaker 1: and good. But I think it's in that journey of developing,
Speaker 1: whether it's skill or talent or knowledge or awareness or competence,
Speaker 1: and getting the results is great, But for me, it's
Speaker 1: more about who you become when you're doing that thing.
Speaker 2: It's a journey, right, And how do you think people
Speaker 2: responded to that, Joeney? Because I feel like quite often
Speaker 2: ambitious or ambition in general isn't really appreciated as much.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it might be like, oh, you know, don't like
Speaker 2: you said, don't be too hard on yourself. What's wrong
Speaker 2: with just what you're doing now when you think about,
Speaker 2: you know, doing something outside the norm and even new
Speaker 2: Tiff right going yep, training in the way that you
Speaker 2: do right, it's against the norm of what maybe most
Speaker 2: people do, which is like no exercise or not being
Speaker 2: conscious of those things.
Speaker 1: Said a big couple of years. Can you see behind
Speaker 1: her on the wall there's a poster that could probably
Speaker 1: hate that's her. Have you heard of Hunters and Collectors,
Speaker 1: the Australian group No, you've been living under rock, dude.
Speaker 1: But they're a very they're a very famous group from
Speaker 1: the eighties, nineties and noughties. There's still do they do
Speaker 1: anything together? Not much anymore.
Speaker 2: They're not together anymore anyway.
Speaker 1: The lead singer from that, his name's Mark Seymour, and
Speaker 1: he wrote a whole album called The Boxer, which was
Speaker 1: about Tiff, who was his trainer. You probably don't know
Speaker 1: Tiff as a background in boxing, so ergo that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been it's been a busy year or two for
Speaker 1: you with all you like, you've exploded into speaking and
Speaker 1: your podcasts catching fire and you've been on the bloody
Speaker 1: front of a best selling Australian album.
Speaker 2: How do you feel tip with that ambition? Do you
Speaker 2: feel like people have been great about Like, what's your take.
Speaker 3: On It's funny because I ran into I hung out
Speaker 3: with someone earlier this week who I hadn't seen for
Speaker 3: a couple of years, and they commented about the last
Speaker 3: few years of watching and how I've just overachieved in
Speaker 3: all these areas and how amazing it was. And it
Speaker 3: was just in the way that they said it one
Speaker 3: of those moments where I was like, oh really, And
Speaker 3: then you know, I always have to remind myself and
Speaker 3: it's why I carry on so much, I guess because
Speaker 3: I'm always in awe sometimes like ah, there's just this
Speaker 3: little chick from Chassy and like that's me on a billboard,
Speaker 3: that's me on an album like that happened, and I
Speaker 3: have to remind myself because.
Speaker 2: And feel real like I imagine, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remind myself of in twenty twenty sitting there having
Speaker 3: Mark on the show for the first time, and I
Speaker 3: try and imagine what it would have felt like if
Speaker 3: someone said to me in a few years time, he'll
Speaker 3: write a song about you and you'll be on the
Speaker 3: front cover of the album, and that's going to happen.
Speaker 3: Like I would have punched him in the face and
Speaker 3: said you're stupid. Same as like the day that Craig
Speaker 3: rang me and said, I want to start doing more
Speaker 3: podcasts and I've noticed your show's doing really well, and
Speaker 3: you know, do you want to come and do some
Speaker 3: episodes on my show? And I hung up the phone
Speaker 3: and went, holy shit, Craig Harper just rang me like
Speaker 3: I've been hanging out in his bamboo for years, trying
Speaker 3: to trying to be trying to learn from him and
Speaker 3: be around his people and trying to and here it is,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And I feel like both those opportunities you could actually predict.
Speaker 2: You were just taking the steps right in a direction. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then that came, But you could have never predicted that,
Speaker 2: Like you couldn't have been like five years ago. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go train someone and they're going to
Speaker 2: write a song like you can't say exactly exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I's to such a good person, I think for everyone
Speaker 2: hearing this, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what, I love it takes a
Speaker 1: bit of guts and vulnerability because you can get rejected,
Speaker 1: Like didn't you say when you're in the ring with
Speaker 1: Mark once you were training him something like mucking around
Speaker 1: because you knew he was doing a new album, you
Speaker 1: better write a song about me. And he said it's
Speaker 1: already been written.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I text him. I'd had a couple of
Speaker 3: training sessions and I sent him. He said, sent me
Speaker 3: something and I wrote back, I intend to unleash so much,
Speaker 3: Jim Trauma, you write a song about me on your
Speaker 3: next album. Ha ha, And he wrote back the boxer
Speaker 3: in inverted commas, it's already started. And then I still
Speaker 3: didn't know it was true. And then later that night
Speaker 3: he started asking me questions about my life and I
Speaker 3: was like, what are you asking for? And he said
Speaker 3: lyrics and I was like what, wow?
Speaker 1: How good is that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, money to get listen to this now it's weird.
Speaker 1: It's weird. I want to circle back to one thing
Speaker 1: we're talking about before Sam. Yeah, basically we're talking about
Speaker 1: the busy badge. How I'm sure overseas listeners do it
Speaker 1: as well, but in Australia we like, it's like we
Speaker 1: have this busy badge which is almost like a social credit.
Speaker 1: It's like that's the way that we get a prove.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how are things? I'm busy? Busy. It's like
Speaker 1: that's that's how we describe how we are, and the
Speaker 1: word that we use is busy, So we must think
Speaker 1: that that's a good thing to say. What is that about?
Speaker 1: Why does that? Why is that such good currency?
Speaker 2: That's a good question because I feel like it it's
Speaker 2: like a slip of the tongue, you know, we all
Speaker 2: just say it, you know, yep, been so busy. I
Speaker 2: feel like I noticed myself doing that as well. But
Speaker 2: if you think about what does busy mean, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: someone gave me this coat. It's like the mosquito and
Speaker 2: the bee. They're both busy, but the bee's doing something
Speaker 2: quite productive. I'm making honey. But then the mosquito is
Speaker 2: just like biting people. So you kind of think about
Speaker 2: what that busy iness filled with, because a lot of
Speaker 2: the time we're busy with other people's demands and not
Speaker 2: necessarily sitting with ourselves, and I think it becomes quite
Speaker 2: a distraction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon, there's there's there's busy good and busy bad,
Speaker 1: Busy productive, busy, unproductive, busy fun and busy frustrating.
Speaker 2: But it's still taking us away from our goal. It
Speaker 2: could be like I'm catching up this person and I'm,
Speaker 2: you know, going shopping, and I'm doing all these things.
Speaker 2: But hang on, didn't I say I have this huge
Speaker 2: goal that I wanted to achieve this, that I wanted
Speaker 2: to train, that I wanted to write that book, that
Speaker 2: I wanted to do that course. So I think it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily things are inherently bad. It's just like, what
Speaker 2: is our main goals here? And is the business taking
Speaker 2: away from that or actually doing things that are moving
Speaker 2: us towards living an aligned life right, living at our values?
Speaker 1: Do you think we don't follow through? Often we don't
Speaker 1: follow through on decisions or goals or intentions or resolutions
Speaker 1: just because it sucks, like the process is not fun,
Speaker 1: Like why do we make so many Why do we
Speaker 1: say I'm going to do this and we don't do it? Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty much everyone has done. I would
Speaker 1: say ninety percent of the time. I'm guessing. But when
Speaker 1: people say I'm going to do this ninety percent of
Speaker 1: the time, they don't do it. What is that about?
Speaker 2: Because it's hard and they're waiting for a time where
Speaker 2: it might not be hard. So they're like, I really
Speaker 2: want to do this thing, that life's a bit busy. Now,
Speaker 2: I'll wait till the kids are older, I'll wait till
Speaker 2: after this holiday. Because they think it's going to be
Speaker 2: easier and that pure of life. But the truth is
Speaker 2: it's actually going to be hard no matter what time.
Speaker 2: It is, just like exercise, you know, like it's just
Speaker 2: hard either way. And when we realize that, then we
Speaker 2: don't wait for the perfect conditions because that will never exist,
Speaker 2: and we just start to make those steps towards that.
Speaker 1: Then, when you're building your business, you know, which is
Speaker 1: quite not mainstream in the psychology therapy treatment space, Yeah,
Speaker 1: did you? And I'm guessing there was a stage where
Speaker 1: you didn't have heaps of confidence because, and I mean
Speaker 1: this with love, you were just a girl that came
Speaker 1: that left school early, dropped out and went and cut
Speaker 1: hair right, and then how the fuck you ended up
Speaker 1: with a PhD is incredible, But there must have been
Speaker 1: a bit of pushback or at least some kind of
Speaker 1: resistance setting up your business because your kind of therapy
Speaker 1: is something of an outlier in the treatment world.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, constantly. When you think about it, you're doing
Speaker 2: something against the norm, right, You're creating something that's never
Speaker 2: been created before, is what it feels like. Right when
Speaker 2: you're you know, showing up and you're saying things that
Speaker 2: most people don't want to hear. They want to hear
Speaker 2: that you know, you're the expert and you're going to
Speaker 2: give therapy full stop. They don't want to hear that
Speaker 2: you've created something different and because and this different thing
Speaker 2: is actually going to require a lot of deep work,
Speaker 2: and it's going to require action. It's going to require
Speaker 2: always hard things. So I think, yeah, there's definitely I
Speaker 2: guess that what do you say, self doubt? But it's uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: it's gross. But I like to lean into that too,
Speaker 2: because I know that that's it means you're onto something,
Speaker 2: right when you know that you've been i don't know,
Speaker 2: trained in a certain way. We've been trained in that
Speaker 2: traditional way, and then I saw something that was missing,
Speaker 2: and then I've created something that's missing. I know other
Speaker 2: people are going to see that too, or other people are,
Speaker 2: you know, feeling like how I am. So I think
Speaker 2: when you create with that in mind, where you're like,
Speaker 2: I'm making it for people like me, like us, well
Speaker 2: we want more. It makes it, I think, a lot
Speaker 2: easier because it's more of like a values driven mission
Speaker 2: rather than a I must make this per packed.
Speaker 1: Really there's you know, there's lots of good and bad
Speaker 1: about university and study and research in general. There's some
Speaker 1: really good stuff and some not so good stuff. But
Speaker 1: what I like about at a PhD level, when you're
Speaker 1: doing science, you've literally got to find a whole. You've
Speaker 1: got to find a gap, you've got to find something
Speaker 1: that's missing and then go. You can't do what's already
Speaker 1: been done, you know, or even if you do open
Speaker 1: a door on an area that's been done, you need
Speaker 1: to bring something new to the table. And I like that,
Speaker 1: and I like.
Speaker 2: How much that pushed me too, because when I did
Speaker 2: my qualitative and I found a lot of things that
Speaker 2: were I probably could catch on too, and you know,
Speaker 2: make the PhD out of that, and there were kind
Speaker 2: of safe options there. Oh yeah, they've said this, I
Speaker 2: could just run with this and you know, focus my
Speaker 2: lens on that. But then they said something that was
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, and I was like, if I if I
Speaker 2: say this, I'm going to expose the industry to point out,
Speaker 2: you know that therapists do have bias as well, and
Speaker 2: we're not above all this, and despite our training, right,
Speaker 2: this does impact our work. And I was really scared.
Speaker 2: It was almost like that good girl kind of conditioning
Speaker 2: coming through, like I don't want to make anyone feel
Speaker 2: bad or uncomfortable. And I remember publishing the study and
Speaker 2: I was like expecting it to get rejected, and it did,
Speaker 2: but with revision. So each of my two papers got
Speaker 2: three revisions and then they accepted it. But when I
Speaker 2: got my PhD, marked the comments around that, she actually
Speaker 2: marked it in the top five percent of what she's seen,
Speaker 2: and she said, I did that because you caught out,
Speaker 2: like the elephant in the room. You said something that
Speaker 2: most people don't talk about. And that was I thought,
Speaker 2: really good. Because she was in the industry, she could
Speaker 2: anyther way. She could have shut it down and got
Speaker 2: all defensive, or she could have seen it for what
Speaker 2: it is, which is I'm you know, working towards calling
Speaker 2: this out so we can actually grow through that, we
Speaker 2: can learn through that. So it was really great. But
Speaker 2: it shows you that what research can reveal, Right, it's
Speaker 2: not comfortable stuff, but it's things that we need to
Speaker 2: hear so we can move forward.
Speaker 1: And what people understandably don't understand who haven't been through
Speaker 1: the process, which is most people, of course, is that
Speaker 1: you you could have got another reviewer and maybe not
Speaker 1: even got your PhD. You know, if they just kept
Speaker 1: rejecting it. I mean you wouldn't you would have got
Speaker 1: it eventually. But you know what I mean, where you
Speaker 1: could have got like whoever that lady reviewed your work
Speaker 1: and quite rightly recognized its uniqueness and its value and
Speaker 1: all of that. But if you had another reviewer, and
Speaker 1: by the way, yeah, so when you when you submit
Speaker 1: a paper or a thesis, it gets reviewed and then
Speaker 1: gets the going back and forth process is very normal.
Speaker 1: In fact, it's pretty much to be expected. You don't
Speaker 1: care in anything, and they go that's great, well done
Speaker 1: in no revisions or no whatever. Yeah, because you could
Speaker 1: have had somebody who was well and truly entrenched in
Speaker 1: the traditional model who went, what the fuck are you
Speaker 1: talking about?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And that's the thing. It's such a subjective experience
Speaker 2: when you think about it. Even even with one of
Speaker 2: the papers, they had two reviewers and the editor and
Speaker 2: one reviewer was like, this is great. Ready as is yeah,
Speaker 2: put it in, and the other one was like, no,
Speaker 2: not at all, like no revisions, it just shouldn't be
Speaker 2: in this paper. And the editor was like, Okay, these
Speaker 2: are like polar opposites. I'm going to side with the
Speaker 2: one that said yes, but here's some revisions. And they
Speaker 2: ended up getting accepted. But it just showed you, like
Speaker 2: literally the polar opposites of what they had said.
Speaker 1: That's right, And that's when people think that in academia
Speaker 1: at a certain level, it's all just science and objective
Speaker 1: data analysis. It's absolutely not. Because you gave the same
Speaker 1: work to two people who had different opinions. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: different ideas different Like one thought it was great, one
Speaker 1: didn't think it should even get considered, and they're looking
Speaker 1: at the exact same thing. That's how imprecise science can be.
Speaker 1: That's what people don't get. People think, Oh, it's like,
Speaker 1: that's why I'm all the time saying when somebody says
Speaker 1: the science tells us, just take that with a grain
Speaker 1: of salt, because that really does not mean much. You know,
Speaker 1: it depends what we're talking about specifically, but you.
Speaker 2: Know, definitely I think people will take it as like
Speaker 2: gospel and then they listen to that more than these
Speaker 2: two and their own, Like you said, data from what
Speaker 2: they're learning about themselves.
Speaker 1: So yeah, one hundred percent, Dr Sam. How can people
Speaker 1: find you, follow you, connect with you, and come and
Speaker 1: play with you for a huge hourly rate.
Speaker 2: So I'm on Instagram, Dr Sam Casey or on my
Speaker 2: website which is www dot dot samcc dot.
Speaker 1: Com, Perfect Tiffany and Cook. Any closing words of wisdom
Speaker 1: or insight or genius that you feel you just need
Speaker 1: to dump on us before we say goodbye.
Speaker 2: I've got nothing, bro, you.
Speaker 1: Don't want to do a big dump before we leave.
Speaker 2: No, I'll let you sleep easy.
Speaker 1: Thanks all right, would say goodbye here, but Sam, thanks again,
Speaker 1: appreciate you tip.
Speaker 2: Thanks all right, Thanks guys,