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Speaker 1: I got a team. It's the Bloody You Project. It's

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Speaker 1: bloody Harps, It's bloody tiff and it's bloody doctor Sam.

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Speaker 1: All in the one bloody virtual room. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of swearing in there, the one virtual room at the

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Speaker 1: same moment in time. Although technically it's not seven o'clock

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Speaker 1: in wa it's five, isn't it? Is it five or four?

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Speaker 1: It's five? Right? So two hour diff? When does it

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Speaker 1: go back to three hour dift? Do you know? When's that?

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Speaker 2: I just wait for the announcements, but I'm not that prepared.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit like that too.

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Speaker 2: Hi Tiffany, Hi Kray Anthony, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Are you good? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I am good.

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Speaker 3: I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Banks.

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Speaker 1: Now, I did not know that you were going to

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Speaker 1: join us, but you stuck your head up like a

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Speaker 1: little fucking meerkat over the virtual wall of the U

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Speaker 1: project and just started waving your little pause going let

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Speaker 1: me into the studio. And I said to doctor Sam,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? She went, Nah? So I overrode

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Speaker 1: her because I'm nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Sam would never say.

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Speaker 1: That that is true. There's only one rude person on

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Speaker 1: this podcast, and it's the bloke in the middle. Of

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Speaker 1: the screen, Tiff, what have you done? Have you been productive?

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Speaker 2: I actually have lots of podcasts today, which.

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Speaker 3: Is why i'd put a questionable. I'd just finished run

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Speaker 3: in time to get on here. But that's why I

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Speaker 3: wasn't sure if i'd edit this one later, because I

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Speaker 3: might be a bit podcast brain fried, but very productive

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Speaker 3: and even a little little slow plod little run.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, really, what do you Because you're a power athlete.

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Speaker 1: Now tell doctor Sam, have you ever seen her in

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Speaker 1: a bloody crop top? You probably haven't. No, I mean

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Speaker 1: this with love. She says that herself spilt like a dude, and.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting jacked, Doc.

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Speaker 1: What's brought on the running?

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Speaker 3: Well? Well, I'm just reading reducing either a little just

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Speaker 3: a short run and or a little hit workout once

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Speaker 3: or twice a week, just because I really value that

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Speaker 3: cardiovascular style of training and it feels good. I just

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Speaker 3: don't want to go back to doing too much of it.

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Speaker 3: On top of the training, I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: Goodie gum drops and doctor Sam, we spoke briefly last

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Speaker 1: time you hit the gym affair bit you do some

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Speaker 1: weight like, what's your kind of I'm sure it varies,

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Speaker 1: but give or take what's your weekly kind of commitment

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Speaker 1: to exercise.

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Speaker 2: I love doing three low body days often Monday, Wednesday, Friday,

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Speaker 2: and then two upper body days, often Tuesday Thursday. But

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Speaker 2: then I can't stay away on the weekend either, so

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Speaker 2: I just try to shuffle it around. But pretty much, yeah,

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Speaker 2: five weight training days I love, and like you, Chip,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to just add in a bit more cardio

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Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm really unbalanced in that way.

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Speaker 2: Kind of neglected my cardio recently, so I've been adding

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Speaker 2: in more walks, trying to get to ten thousand a

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Speaker 2: day steps today.

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Speaker 1: Were you were you remotely athletic at school? Were you

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Speaker 1: somewhat coordinated? What?

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Speaker 2: He never I was that student that would be like

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Speaker 2: I will write lines and not just sport. It was

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Speaker 2: actually motherhood that really got my button to gear because

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Speaker 2: I was like, I want to be that mum that

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Speaker 2: can run around the park with my kids, and so

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Speaker 2: I have to there be this person racing exercise. And

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Speaker 2: then I actually just fell in love with weight training.

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Speaker 2: So that worked out really well. And I still feel

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Speaker 2: old when I run around the park with my kids.

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Speaker 2: So I'm getting that.

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Speaker 1: I think I know, But can I ask how old

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Speaker 1: you are, feel free not to answer that question.

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Speaker 2: But also, I am thirty five next month.

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Speaker 1: How young does she look here? I know, babyface, I know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not even being nice, like I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know anymore. I can't tell. But like I say,

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Speaker 1: fifteen year olds who look to me like twenty two,

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Speaker 1: but Sam's thirty five and looks twenty five. When you

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Speaker 1: get especially with young with I guess teenage girls and

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Speaker 1: young women when they put on makeup and they're out

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Speaker 1: and about and dressed up with makeup, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to tell, you know, whereas with teenage boys and

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Speaker 1: men it's a little bit easier.

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Speaker 2: I think, Oh, I feel like these days I can't tell,

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Speaker 2: Like I'm never accurate, you know, like back then fifty

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Speaker 2: year olds then versus now is so different too. So

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Speaker 2: I just I can't kick up look at j Lo like.

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Speaker 1: She's I think she may have a team that keeps

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Speaker 1: that happening. Plus she's And then I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say anything, I'll get myself in trouble, but yeah, she is,

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Speaker 1: she is. I see. Even when I want to say

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Speaker 1: something compliment you, I go, can I say that? Can

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Speaker 1: I say she's attractive. Is that illegal these days? What

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Speaker 1: is that? Six to twelve months? She's illegal. You're going

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Speaker 1: to jail. I mean you're she's she's attractive, You're going

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Speaker 1: to jail. No, she's she's done. But there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in that, you know, Brad Pitt. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say this, but Brad Pitt and I are

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Speaker 1: the same age. Look at my head. I look like

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Speaker 1: a fuck some kind of marsupial in a fucking you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a Brad Pitt still looks like a fucking hot

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Speaker 1: thirty five year old.

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Speaker 2: Well you just said that they have teams, right, I

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Speaker 2: mean whole team dedicated to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, good for them, Good for them. So we're

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Speaker 1: chatting about of course, Dr Sam is one of our regulars.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I guess we have quite a we probably have ten

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Speaker 1: twelve regulars now. And of course you are doctor Sam Case.

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Speaker 1: You are a psychologist, among other things, specialized primary sorry,

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Speaker 1: you've got a PhD. And you're a therapist, all right,

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Speaker 1: and you specialize in kids and play their therapy. But

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Speaker 1: also you you know, your knowledge is expansive. And I

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Speaker 1: sent you a message this afternoon because I had a message.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you have an idea for a

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Speaker 1: topic for a show, just go to the U Project

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Speaker 1: podcast Facebook page, the U Project Podcast Facebook page and go, hey, Harps,

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Speaker 1: what about this? But before you do that, try to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we haven't done it thirteen times already.

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Speaker 1: But if you've got an idea that's a little bit

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Speaker 1: different or fresh or original and it falls loosely within

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Speaker 1: the kind of the walls of human behavior and psychology

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Speaker 1: and thinking and doing better and personal development and self

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Speaker 1: awareness and management and all that shit, yes, send us.

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Speaker 1: Send it through. Because Johnny Dunn, who is a guy

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Speaker 1: from Queensland, I don't know if I can say his profession,

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Speaker 1: but well he did put it on. He did put

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Speaker 1: it on. Maybe I better not he put it on

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Speaker 1: the Facebook page. But let's just say he has an

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Speaker 1: important job, works under a lot of pressure, and he

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Speaker 1: may drive a cop car. But other than that, I'm

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Speaker 1: giving you nothing. There's no hints. No, he did say

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Speaker 1: it on the page. Tift done look at me like that.

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Speaker 1: So he wanted us, he wanted us to talk about burnout.

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Speaker 1: And I went, so, I send you a message today

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Speaker 1: and went, is that in your wheelhouse? And you went, well, actually,

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Speaker 1: Jumbo I can do that, So what what can you? Firstly,

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Speaker 1: what's the difference between burnout and mental fatigue and stress

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Speaker 1: and anxiety or these all intersecting variables that live under

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Speaker 1: the one roof and their first cousins or something.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like it's a really subjective term when

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Speaker 2: you think about it, right, A lot of people you

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Speaker 2: know will have different views about it. I like to

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Speaker 2: think of burnout is you've reached your capacity, Like you

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Speaker 2: feel like you're completely and utterly mentally fatigued. You've lost

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Speaker 2: that compassion perhaps for your job, You've lost a drive,

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Speaker 2: you've lost the motivation, you've become really negative about your role.

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Speaker 2: You don't see how this will get better. And quite

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Speaker 2: often a lot of people I would say a crispy

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Speaker 2: where they're like on the path towards burn out, and

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Speaker 2: they stay in that crispiness for ages, and then something

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Speaker 2: often kind of pushes them over the edge to that burnout,

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Speaker 2: and often that looks like either you know, having to

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Speaker 2: take leave from their job, stress leave or quitting or

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Speaker 2: actually not being able to function. So I would say

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Speaker 2: burnout is probably reaching that point right, But right up

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Speaker 2: until then, there's that crispiness it's like, are they bent out?

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Speaker 2: Are they on the road to burn out? I think

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Speaker 2: it's really subjective.

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Speaker 1: Though, and what are the kind of I might be

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Speaker 1: heading towards that signs and symptoms where maybe I need

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Speaker 1: to take a day off, week off, a month off.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I need another job, maybe I need a different environment.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's kind of what might be bubbling

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Speaker 1: up that we can be aware of so we don't

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Speaker 1: just keep pushing the accelerator to the floorboard.

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Speaker 2: I would say that exhaustion both mentally and physically, that

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Speaker 2: loss of motivation and drive for the job, struggling even

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Speaker 2: to get out of bed, or struggling to engage in

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Speaker 2: activities that would bring you joy before, but now you

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Speaker 2: just don't have any desire to do anything outside work

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Speaker 2: because you're so exhausted. I'd say even in the role,

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Speaker 2: getting really cynical or negative about the role, not seeing

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Speaker 2: any change, like feeling like it's just not rewarding, you know,

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Speaker 2: lost that kind of either passion for the job or

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Speaker 2: just you know, wanting to be there and do the role,

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Speaker 2: like kind of you're physically there, but you've checked out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon to feel free to jump in. I reckon.

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Speaker 1: Like in life, a lot of things have a used

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Speaker 1: by date. You know, bread's got to use by date,

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Speaker 1: milk's got to use by date. But I think also

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Speaker 1: jobs or careers, or environments, or obviously relationships or even

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Speaker 1: training protocols where you know, the way that I trained

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Speaker 1: worked really great for a while, and then it became

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Speaker 1: less efficient and less effective. So I needed to ramp

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Speaker 1: it up or change. I needed some variety or some

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Speaker 1: progression or some reduction in recovery time. I needed to

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Speaker 1: manipulate the variables to get a different response or in

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Speaker 1: my case, so I started in gyms in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: I started personal training in eighty six. I set up

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Speaker 1: my first center in nine point ninety. So by the

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Speaker 1: time I sold my gym I started ninety two, it

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Speaker 1: was about thirty two or three years later. And by

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Speaker 1: the time I sold it, I wasn't burnt out, but

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Speaker 1: I was just getting no joy. I didn't you know.

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Speaker 1: I still love helping people, but I felt like I

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Speaker 1: was I was not only was I not growing, I

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Speaker 1: kind of and maybe I wasn't, but I felt like

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Speaker 1: I was going backwards. Because how many times can you

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Speaker 1: talk about bums and legs and carbs and adjust a

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Speaker 1: bloody bike seat and hand someone a pair of dumbbells

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Speaker 1: and set the bloody treadmill up, and not that they're

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Speaker 1: bad things, but after you do that sixty seven million times,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think you need some kind for me anyway.

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Speaker 1: I needed a different environment or a different job, or

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Speaker 1: to talk to different people or think about different things,

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Speaker 1: or to be able to keep expanding and learning, because

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Speaker 1: it just for me. It got to the point where

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Speaker 1: I didn't hate it, but I reckon another six months,

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Speaker 1: I would have hated it gone. Even though it's a

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Speaker 1: good job. Yeah, yeah, And it.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't necessarily be a bad job, right. Every job is,

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Speaker 2: you know, susceptible off this as well. And I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of the helping professions, right, NASA's teachers, people

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Speaker 2: working in a therapist even it doesn't mean that the

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Speaker 2: job's bad or that the workplace is bad, but it's

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Speaker 2: a combination of things, right, that can really add to

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Speaker 2: the loads. So I think we're you said there around change.

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Speaker 2: I think quite often people are really resistance to change

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Speaker 2: change and that kind of contributes to to them reaching

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Speaker 2: that point.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point, because people are resistant to change

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Speaker 1: but change sometimes is going to be the solution to

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Speaker 1: the burnout, or at least part of the solution. Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, change inevitable, and I think often people don't want that,

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Speaker 2: right They just want, like I just want a job

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Speaker 2: and I want to get my head around it, and

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Speaker 2: then that is it, and then things change in their

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Speaker 2: environment and then that would require them to adapt, and

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Speaker 2: I think there's that resistance to do that. And like

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Speaker 2: you said, I think change is necessary. It's inevita part

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Speaker 2: of life. And I think if the more that we

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Speaker 2: can embrace it, even in a playful way of like

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Speaker 2: what else could I be doing? And what you know,

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Speaker 2: what about this could really shift? And what could I

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Speaker 2: actually tweak to make this a better fit for me?

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Speaker 2: That can be playful, that can be exciting, That can

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Speaker 2: you know when we actually are open to exploring the possibilities.

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Speaker 2: But quite often we don't feel that way.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to resist that change. We're trying to push

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Speaker 2: through just work harder. Yeah, we think it's a time

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Speaker 2: management thing rather than an energy management issue as well.

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Speaker 1: And also it's a how do I respond individually to

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Speaker 1: this situation or this stress or this stimulus or this

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Speaker 1: event or like I was talking this morning at the

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Speaker 1: cafe with a made of mind Deno shout out to Dean.

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Speaker 1: He's a fiery and we're just talking about Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, broadly speaking, people's ability to perform under pressure.

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Speaker 1: So whether or not you're a cop, whether or not

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Speaker 1: you're a policeman or a nurse, or a doctor, or

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Speaker 1: an elite athlete or a soldier or you know, anyone

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Speaker 1: putting themselves into situations that are not comfortable, not certain,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily predictable, maybe not familiar, but being able to

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Speaker 1: just go in there and do what you need to

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Speaker 1: do and to manage the fear of the anxiety, the biology,

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Speaker 1: the psychology, the emotion, all of it. Like some people

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Speaker 1: do great with that, some people melt down with that.

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Speaker 1: But that's again, it's less about what's going on and

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Speaker 1: more about how the individual navigates or deals with personally

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Speaker 1: what's going on, right, well, how.

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Speaker 2: They approach it. I think you've made a really good point, Like,

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Speaker 2: look at an athlete right there, for example, gearing up

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Speaker 2: for a race, and so they're training in a certain

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Speaker 2: way and it's super intense and they're looking at their

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Speaker 2: nutrition and then they do the race, they have to

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Speaker 2: obviously highly perform, but then they have this period of

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Speaker 2: rest I'm sure right where their training looks different and

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Speaker 2: their nutrition looks different, and their recovery is their main focus.

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Speaker 2: So no one actually works at a high level twenty

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Speaker 2: four seven like they're going to go through cycles. But

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Speaker 2: what happens in workplace is people don't go through cycles.

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Speaker 2: They just try and perform at their top the whole time.

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Speaker 2: They don't see the value in resting and recovering and

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Speaker 2: still doing the things that bring us during all of that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: their intense high periods and stuff in those jobs, but

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Speaker 2: it should come with after that intense periods of rest

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Speaker 2: and recovery. But they don't create space in their lives

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Speaker 2: for that. You know, their weekends are just filled with

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Speaker 2: meeting other people's needs. It's or you know, doing all

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Speaker 2: the social things that they feel like they have to do,

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Speaker 2: the obligations, rather than looking at actually what they need

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Speaker 2: to sustain themselves, to preserve themselves so that they can

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Speaker 2: continue working at that high level.

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Speaker 1: M and I guess to be able to understand your

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Speaker 1: mind and your body and your emotions and your nervous

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Speaker 1: system and your responses to whatever's going on, you know,

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Speaker 1: to be able to go, oh, my body is telling

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Speaker 1: me I need some time off, Like my nervous system,

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Speaker 1: my blood pressure, my energy, my emotions, whatever are just

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Speaker 1: going and whether or not I need a day or

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Speaker 1: two off, or whether or not I need to go

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Speaker 1: somewhere else, do something else, whatever the change is. But

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Speaker 1: I think that ability to be able to tap into

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Speaker 1: the wisdom of our own body, that's always like sending

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Speaker 1: these messages and pay attention, you know, like that's a

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Speaker 1: big out of it too, I guess, But we don't

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Speaker 1: tend to do that, no.

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Speaker 2: Because we haven't really seen that role modeled a lot,

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Speaker 2: either in society or in our families, you know, in

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Speaker 2: terms of like not just being busy and pushing through

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Speaker 2: rest was often maybe you know, you know, it had

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Speaker 2: to be earned, right or where kind of Again, busyness

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Speaker 2: is a sign of like, oh yeah, good, you've got

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Speaker 2: lots on your plate. You know, you're helping out all

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Speaker 2: these people. So I think you're right, we're not in

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Speaker 2: tuned with our own signals in our body because we

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Speaker 2: haven't really been shown that. You know, how do we

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Speaker 2: know how to trust ourselves? How do we know when

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Speaker 2: we need rest? And how do we know when to

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Speaker 2: push through? Like that's that self trust right that we

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Speaker 2: often talk about.

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Speaker 1: So TIV in the pH three sixty framework, that addresses

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of this stuff too, doesn't it Like

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Speaker 1: knowing how your body and your brain and your energy

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Speaker 1: kind of works. Can you explain just simply and quickly

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Speaker 1: what Sam's writing it down what pH three sixty is.

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Speaker 1: It's not you're not meant to know what it is.

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Speaker 1: Just give her a snapshot and the listeners of what

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 3: It's personalized health, and it brings together a whole range

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Speaker 3: of different biology, medicine, genes, DNA, a whole range of

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Speaker 3: other I guess sciences come together chronobiology, So understanding for

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Speaker 3: people's actual biology, what environments, what chronobiology, what type of

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Speaker 3: work people they need to be around, the type of socializing.

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Speaker 3: So it's just understanding how you interact with your environment

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Speaker 3: and what impact it has on your stress.

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Speaker 2: That's really cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a guy on tell I'll shut up,

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Speaker 1: I'll get that. Tell doctor Sam about doctor Cam who

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Speaker 1: he is, and a little bit more about things because

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Speaker 1: our listeners might want to go and do the test

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Speaker 1: as well. I reckon Sam would like to do the test.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Cam's incredible and he's the found one of the

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Speaker 3: founders of the company, and you can go if you

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Speaker 3: just look up free test PhD sixty free test. There's

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Speaker 3: a free test that you can do, or you can

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Speaker 3: do a paid version. Get They've got an app called

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Speaker 3: Shay Personalized Health, so you get a whole personalized app

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Speaker 3: that tells you it's basically it's got AI now, so

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Speaker 3: you've got like a little virtual AI trainer. It tells

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Speaker 3: you what to eat, when to eat, when to train,

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Speaker 3: how to train, how to move digestion. It tells you

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Speaker 3: exactly what individual foods you need and why, and that

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Speaker 3: changes seasonally as well as overall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, it sounds far better when Cam doctor Cam.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, you're doing a good job. What

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Speaker 1: type are you? What type are you again, tiv.

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Speaker 3: I'm an activator. There's six main health types, and within

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Speaker 3: those six main health types, there's a three hundred and

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Speaker 3: sixty degree circle of different types that come into it.

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Speaker 3: But the main health type categories will talk about what

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Speaker 3: hormone was most dominant as you're in embryo, So for myself,

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Speaker 3: it was the sex hormones of adrenaline, and testosterone, so

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Speaker 3: that dictates how your body forms and grows at that stage.

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Speaker 3: So activators will generally be more inclined to be more muscular,

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Speaker 3: lean and muscular, more competitive, more aggressive, more reactive, and

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Speaker 3: less detail focused and early morning people like your crossfitters,

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Speaker 3: your early morning trainers. And then you've got on the

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Speaker 3: other end of the spectrum, you've got a guardian. They

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Speaker 3: are driven by the prolactant as the hormone, so they're

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Speaker 3: very nurturing, like they're a lot of paramedics, a lot

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Speaker 3: of nurses, very nurturing people. They need to have stress

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Speaker 3: free mornings. And yeah, the whole the timing that you

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Speaker 3: do everything in your day within those hormones, how those

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Speaker 3: hormones flow throughout the day.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So you found it really useful for you big

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Speaker 2: time and especially.

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Speaker 1: For Sorry sorry, I was going to say a guardian slide.

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Speaker 1: The labradors of the group.

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Speaker 3: They so are connectors, actually connectors are they're next to it,

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Speaker 3: and the connector is called the puppy dog. They each

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Speaker 3: have an animal, and the guardian is the bear, and

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Speaker 3: the activator is the cat, and the connector is the

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Speaker 3: puppy dog.

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Speaker 2: Because they're all about fun. So a connector.

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Speaker 3: So take myself and a connector, for example, we do

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Speaker 3: a similar style of exercise, but a connector needs to

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Speaker 3: do that in a group with people. They're people, folcus,

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Speaker 3: they have to do everything has to be having fun

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Speaker 3: and connecting with people, whereas an activator is very driven

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Speaker 3: to compete and perform and like punch people in the

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Speaker 3: face and do CrossFit and win.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I don't need

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Speaker 2: anyone and I've got.

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Speaker 3: This yeah yeah, And it's really fascinating, Like I do it.

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Speaker 3: I do coaching with people, and it's not just physical

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Speaker 3: like I've done corporate coaching with people, where to understand

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Speaker 3: how you work and how potentially other people work, how

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Speaker 3: you communicate with someone who you know is not.

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Speaker 2: Like you, yeah yeah, and appreciating those differences true, right,

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Speaker 2: and seeing that as strengths, like for them to lend

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Speaker 2: their own body and what would work for them. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One of the first things I learned about myself was

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Speaker 3: that idea of letting go.

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Speaker 2: Of I thought, am I just do I have? Am

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Speaker 2: I obsessed with exercise?

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Speaker 3: Because I would train in the morning, and if I

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Speaker 3: trained in the morning, I'd finish work and I'd be like.

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Speaker 2: I feel like training again?

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Speaker 3: Am I just obsessed? Do I have an eating disorder

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Speaker 3: where I just eat and train? But activators, their primary

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Speaker 3: lifestyle thing is to move, So they want to move

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Speaker 3: in the morning and then they want to move again.

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Speaker 3: The body is built to move. That's the most important

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Speaker 3: lifestyle factor is moving, yea, which is why I want

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Speaker 3: to bring that explosive movement into my days because it's

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Speaker 3: a part of what's hardwired.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you know that that would wait for you then, right,

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Speaker 2: the more religind you are.

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Speaker 1: With that, Yeah, what am I in this framework again? TIV?

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Speaker 1: What am I?

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Speaker 2: I can't remember?

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Speaker 3: What you?

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Speaker 1: Doctor? I don't know, doctor, cam Baby, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I reckon, I reckon. I'm a hybrid.

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Speaker 2: I reckon, You're a hybrid? There such thing? Do they

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Speaker 2: have my prints at all of them?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah, So I'm also very on the cusp of

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Speaker 3: a crusader, which Cam is a crusader. So you can

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Speaker 3: within that, like I said, that's six three hund and

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Speaker 3: sixty degree circle, you can sit right on the cusp.

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Speaker 3: So the look of an activator who's at that end

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Speaker 3: of the spectrum as opposed to the other end of

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Speaker 3: their little wedge of the circle.

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Speaker 2: You can look very different.

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Speaker 1: What's a crusader? What tell us about them?

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Speaker 2: Crusader? They are very data driven, data and analytical and

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Speaker 2: gold driven. And they're often quite.

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Speaker 3: Tall and lean with big hands, long slender fingers. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and built for endurance, so they're like great cyclists, great

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Speaker 3: great for endurance type exercise.

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Speaker 1: So no crusaders here.

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Speaker 2: Then I am on the cast points for that.

436
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 1: Wow, don't you reckon? Doctor Sam? That like trying to

437
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 1: figure out how we work as one of the biggest

438
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: challenges from a health and wellness like and like with

439
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: what Tip's talking about, but just knowing if I have

440
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: six hours sleep, I'm fucked. If I have seven to

441
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: seven and a half, I'm good. If I eat after

442
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: nine o'clock, I sheet or seven or eight o'clock I

443
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: sleep like crap. If I do this, it works. If

444
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: I do that, it doesn't work. Because we're always getting data,

445
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: right yep.

446
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: It's like life is like one big experiment, and when

447
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: we're in different situations too, in different seasons of life

448
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: where you know, getting new data. So I really like

449
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: that approach to life. It's on the site being a

450
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: researcher and like you said, you're just looking at that

451
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: data and you keep using that to inform what you

452
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 2: do next next steps.

453
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: So are there any from a clinical point of view

454
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: or a therapeutic point of view when you're talking with

455
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: dealing with helping people who are in burnout or heading

456
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: towards burnout? And I know there's no three step plan,

457
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: but what are the some of the things you would

458
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 1: talk about or perhaps want to put in place.

459
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: I'd get first, I guess to their core beliefs. Quite

460
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 2: that quite often drives a lot of their burnout type behaviors,

461
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: right where they stop doing the things that bring them

462
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 2: joy and they keep pushing through and they think they

463
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: need to work harder and if only they could just

464
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: get on top of that to do list. And I

465
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 2: think that comes from a lot of those core beliefs,

466
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: right if, like there's something wrong with me, I need

467
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 2: to be able to be more efficient, I need to

468
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: work harder. You know, people need me. I can't let

469
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: them down. I can't fail at this, like I should

470
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: be able to do this. All of those kind of

471
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: beliefs come into play and how they see themselves as well.

472
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: So I really kind of tap into that, and then

473
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 2: I guess really get them to go back to a

474
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: time where they didn't feel like that what was happening

475
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: in their life, what was working for them, because quite

476
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 2: often they have their own answers right where they go, oh,

477
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 2: I was like exercising heaps, and I was doing all

478
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: those activities that I loved, and I was dancing, and

479
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: I was spending time in the garden. And I've stopped

480
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: doing all of those things. And so they're like a

481
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: little key indicators right off, like, okay, how do we

482
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: get some of that back, even when you're fitling like this, right,

483
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: how do we start to go towards that and make

484
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: little steps? And then even talking about the basics, right

485
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: the sleep, the nutrition, I mean, that's all the fundamental stuffs.

486
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 2: And we can't think straight when we're on burnout. So

487
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 2: that's quite often the problem. It's like, first they need

488
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 2: to take a step back. So usually, especially when they

489
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: are coming to therapy, quite often that first step is

490
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: to take a bit of a break right from work,

491
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: whether it's a few days or weeks, so that they

492
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: can kind of recalibrate, they can actually think clearly, because

493
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: when they think clearly, they end up having right those

494
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 2: next steps of what they need to do and what

495
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: they want to do with their career. But when they're

496
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: in it, they can't. You know, they're in survival mode.

497
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: They're super stressed, and when we feel like that will

498
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: be Yeah, it's really hard to get our perspective, get

499
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: our bearings.

500
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: Is it a good idea? Do you think to want

501
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: to train yourself to be able to deal with pressure

502
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: more effectively? Like you know, if you know that you

503
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: have pretty regular meltdowns in situations where other people perhaps

504
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: don't write and there's no self loathing in this, just

505
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: self awareness. So is it good for me to intentionally

506
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: and by me, I mean anyone listening put myself in

507
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable in an intelligent, strategic way, not a silly,

508
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: reckless way, but to put myself in discomfort intentionally, or

509
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: to put myself in a place where I feel under pressure,

510
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit of stress, I feel a

511
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: little bit of tension. Is it good strategically do that?

512
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: So that? Because it seems to me that's inevitable in life. Right,

513
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: hard ship's coming, it's just a matter of when. So

514
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: do we need to try in ourselves to deal with

515
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: the hard shit? Yeah?

516
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: I quite often think the exercise is one of those

517
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: ways that we do that. Right, we have to show

518
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: up and we're pushing ourselves and we're connected with that,

519
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: and we're choosing to do that, just like I'm sure

520
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: tif you know you're choosing to live those ways or

521
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: choosing to push yourselves. So I think that's one element.

522
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 2: But you're right in terms of the problem solving things,

523
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: I think this is when reflection can be really helpful

524
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: in being able to look at ways that we can

525
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: build a life where we are exposing ourselves to these

526
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 2: little things like thinking about Okay, career wise, right, they're

527
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 2: band to act, hate what they do. Okay, how are

528
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: we going to start to make steps towards doing something

529
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 2: and we like to do What does that look like?

530
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: Is that taking on additional study or is it taking

531
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: on you know, something on the side so that you

532
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: are getting out of that and yet it takes work

533
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: and it's that discipline and everything, but it's that small

534
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: exposure to hard things and it's actually going to make

535
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: life easier. It's almost like doing the hard things now right,

536
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: makes it a little bit easier in the long run.

537
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: But you're right all about there are different problems and

538
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: we have to get comfortable with solving them but knowing

539
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: that they're going to be more right.

540
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: It's almost like a gym fit versus life fit, you know,

541
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: like life is at times hard and unfair and uncomfortable

542
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: and uncertain and unpleasant, and so let's do some stuff

543
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: that we maybe don't need to do, but maybe a

544
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: good idea to lean into every now and then so

545
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: we can build some of those skills and some of

546
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: that mindset and some of that resilience, some of that

547
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: emotional resilience, so when the shit hits the fan, we

548
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: don't capitulate.

549
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of things comes into play

550
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: with that, right, But it's almost like that saying choose

551
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: your heart. You know, being overweight is hard, but being

552
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: fit is hard too, Like all these things are difficult,

553
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: and so when we are choosing our own little battles,

554
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: it does make it a bit more fun because you're like,

555
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: this is going to be hard, but I'm choosing to

556
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: do this. I'm choosing to retrain so I can move careers,

557
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: or I'm choosing to say no to people that you

558
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: know it's going to be bad, and you know people

559
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: are going to be just point with me, But I

560
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: know that this is better off than me, so I

561
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: can get the rest I need. Yeah, so I think

562
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: it's definitely multifaceted.

563
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: With that choose your hard. Thanks you just gave us

564
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: the title of the show. Thanks for that.

565
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: How often, Sam, do you think that people's career bears

566
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: the brunt of the burnout when maybe it's the rest

567
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: of their lifestyle that's the cause.

568
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: Definitely it bears a brunt because they probably spend most

569
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: of their time there, right, you know, yeah, forty hours

570
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: a week or whatever. But you're right, it's what is

571
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: happening outside that's quite often, You're very right. People are

572
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: fixated on Okay, this is a workplace, it's my boss,

573
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: you know, he's been like this, or it's the system,

574
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 2: or it's the policies, and they don't see that. On

575
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: the weekends, you know, again, they're going to things that

576
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: they hate doing and they're thinking about, right, keeping everyone

577
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: else happy, and they're just busy and they're overloaded, and

578
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: they're cleaning and they're cooking, and they're doing all these

579
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,239
Speaker 2: chores and they're not doing anything that they're like. So

580
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: that often is you're right where we should start, because

581
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: that's what we have more control over. We don't have

582
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: control over all the things in our workplace and all

583
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: the people, but when we feel so powerless in our

584
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: own lives personally, of course we're going to be picking

585
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: apart professionally, right, what's going on? And that's amplified. They'll

586
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: just put it into perspective your workplace when you get

587
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: more power in your own life, because then you're really

588
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: you're more solid with who you are and then you're

589
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: going to work and that's a role versus it being

590
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: an identity.

591
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about self awareness? Awareness of how you are

592
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: and who you are and trying to have a level

593
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: of perspective and objectivity, which is difficult when we're thinking

594
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: and talking about ourselves. But self awareness versus self loathing,

595
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: because it feels like they're very close sometimes, you know,

596
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: and I think we can mistake one for the.

597
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: Other, definitely, because I think what people come to find

598
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: is when they undertake this self awareness, right and when

599
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: they're looking you know, they're journaling and they're thinking about

600
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: all these things, they actually have a really critical way

601
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: of looking at themselves and so that comes out. So

602
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: then they equate self awareness with that self loathing because

603
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: they're like, it must be all my fault, and that's

604
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: how they approach it versus seeing, actually, I've got this

605
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: is my life. I'm responsible in fint of my life,

606
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: which means I have influence over it. That's a more

607
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: empowering way to look at it, and then it gets

608
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: us to take action, right, rather than it's all my fault.

609
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: Now I need to do something about it. So I

610
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: think it's how we're approach it. Quite often our default

611
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: is being really critical and blaming ourselves or blaming someone else,

612
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: and that's why we shy away from self awareness. And

613
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: also self awareness inherently doesn't change our life if we're

614
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: not going to take action. I can sit here, you know,

615
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: for ages and talk about all these things, right, if

616
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: all these patterns that I'm aware of, But if I

617
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: leave here and not do anything different and not shift anything,

618
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: then nothing's going to change. Just remains in my head.

619
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: And then it becomes exhausting. And that's another thing that

620
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: actually contributes to burnout, as when we so much in

621
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: our head and we're thinking about all the things that

622
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: we could be doing and should be doing, and then

623
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: taking zero action.

624
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: It's so interesting every time not every time, but oftentimes

625
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: when I post something like a put up thing on

626
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: I think it was LinkedIn This Morning that said something like,

627
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: sometimes we don't need to learn something new, which might

628
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: empower us, but rather to unlearn something old, which has

629
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: disempowered us. Right, And then I wrote that there are

630
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: times when I just wanted to be right, and when

631
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: I was you know, probably still, you know, and I

632
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: was operating out of fear or ego or something else,

633
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: and I just, you know, I was kind of unteachable

634
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: in some things because I thought I knew right. So

635
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: when you think that whatever that topic or subject matter is,

636
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: you know you have one hundred percent knowledge and truth,

637
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: then everyone who doesn't agree with you in the world

638
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: do you automatically think is wrong? Right, Well, that's a

639
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: big kind of commitment. And anyway, this lady wrote, God

640
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: bless her. She's like, oh, no, like you're great, You're

641
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: being too hard on yourself, you know, And I'm like,

642
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: I actually was just telling the truth. Like it's very

643
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: like I think we're so used to not wanting to

644
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: obviously run anyone down, which is nice, although we are

645
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: pretty fucking good as a species at running people down.

646
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: But you know, like when you when you lean in

647
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm sometimes I'm a dumb fuck, and

648
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing. And it's just literally, this

649
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: is what I'm doing, and it is me being either

650
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: lazy or cynical, or arrogant or fearful or And then

651
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: people think that's self loathing. I'm like, no, that's just knowledge,

652
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: that's just self awareness. I'm not saying I'm a bad human,

653
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: I can't get better, I'm a piece of shit. I'm

654
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: not saying saying that. I'm just saying me anyway. I'm

655
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: not talking about anyone else but me. Sometimes I do

656
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: stuff which is just not great. Sometimes I am self righteous,

657
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes I am arrogant. Sometimes I make bad decisions and

658
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: get bad outcomes. This is all just data. This is

659
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: just true. This is not me hating on myself. It's

660
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: a tricky area to really have self awareness, and some

661
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you become aware of is pretty negative.

662
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: That's where the growth happens. It's uncomfortable, it's not all

663
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: the good things, right, it's actually sitting with a trumpet

664
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: of this is the pattern. Wish it wasn't, but it is.

665
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 2: Do we do with that?

666
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think, and I say this a

667
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: bit and people argue with me. But because I wasn't

668
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: naturally like, you know, great athlete, all those things, great,

669
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: academic great, because I was kind of pretty average. I

670
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: was really motivated to work harder and try harder and

671
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: be more because if I didn't try harder and work harder,

672
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: and because I didn't have the same level of potential

673
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: or skill or talent you know, or whatever, athleticism or

674
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: genetics or as most not all, but a lot of

675
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: people that I went to school with, right, So I

676
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: just had to learn to go, well, this is going

677
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: to suck for a while, but that's all right, because

678
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: it eventually it won't suck and I'll go from being

679
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: bad at it maybe to being somewhere between or right

680
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: and good. But I think it's in that journey of developing,

681
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: whether it's skill or talent or knowledge or awareness or competence,

682
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: and getting the results is great, But for me, it's

683
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: more about who you become when you're doing that thing.

684
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: It's a journey, right, And how do you think people

685
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 2: responded to that, Joeney? Because I feel like quite often

686
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: ambitious or ambition in general isn't really appreciated as much.

687
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: Sometimes it might be like, oh, you know, don't like

688
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 2: you said, don't be too hard on yourself. What's wrong

689
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: with just what you're doing now when you think about,

690
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: you know, doing something outside the norm and even new

691
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: Tiff right going yep, training in the way that you

692
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 2: do right, it's against the norm of what maybe most

693
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: people do, which is like no exercise or not being

694
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: conscious of those things.

695
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: Said a big couple of years. Can you see behind

696
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: her on the wall there's a poster that could probably

697
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 1: hate that's her. Have you heard of Hunters and Collectors,

698
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: the Australian group No, you've been living under rock, dude.

699
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: But they're a very they're a very famous group from

700
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: the eighties, nineties and noughties. There's still do they do

701
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: anything together? Not much anymore.

702
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: They're not together anymore anyway.

703
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: The lead singer from that, his name's Mark Seymour, and

704
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: he wrote a whole album called The Boxer, which was

705
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: about Tiff, who was his trainer. You probably don't know

706
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: Tiff as a background in boxing, so ergo that. But yeah,

707
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: it's been it's been a busy year or two for

708
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: you with all you like, you've exploded into speaking and

709
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: your podcasts catching fire and you've been on the bloody

710
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: front of a best selling Australian album.

711
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: How do you feel tip with that ambition? Do you

712
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: feel like people have been great about Like, what's your take.

713
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: On It's funny because I ran into I hung out

714
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: with someone earlier this week who I hadn't seen for

715
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 3: a couple of years, and they commented about the last

716
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: few years of watching and how I've just overachieved in

717
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: all these areas and how amazing it was. And it

718
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: was just in the way that they said it one

719
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 3: of those moments where I was like, oh really, And

720
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: then you know, I always have to remind myself and

721
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 3: it's why I carry on so much, I guess because

722
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 3: I'm always in awe sometimes like ah, there's just this

723
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: little chick from Chassy and like that's me on a billboard,

724
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: that's me on an album like that happened, and I

725
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 3: have to remind myself because.

726
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: And feel real like I imagine, Yeah.

727
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 3: I remind myself of in twenty twenty sitting there having

728
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 3: Mark on the show for the first time, and I

729
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 3: try and imagine what it would have felt like if

730
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: someone said to me in a few years time, he'll

731
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 3: write a song about you and you'll be on the

732
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 3: front cover of the album, and that's going to happen.

733
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: Like I would have punched him in the face and

734
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: said you're stupid. Same as like the day that Craig

735
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 3: rang me and said, I want to start doing more

736
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 3: podcasts and I've noticed your show's doing really well, and

737
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 3: you know, do you want to come and do some

738
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: episodes on my show? And I hung up the phone

739
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: and went, holy shit, Craig Harper just rang me like

740
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 3: I've been hanging out in his bamboo for years, trying

741
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: to trying to be trying to learn from him and

742
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: be around his people and trying to and here it is,

743
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 3: you know.

744
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: And I feel like both those opportunities you could actually predict.

745
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 2: You were just taking the steps right in a direction. Yeah,

746
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: and then that came, But you could have never predicted that,

747
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: Like you couldn't have been like five years ago. Okay,

748
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to go train someone and they're going to

749
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: write a song like you can't say exactly exactly. Yeah,

750
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 2: I's to such a good person, I think for everyone

751
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 2: hearing this, right.

752
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what, I love it takes a

753
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: bit of guts and vulnerability because you can get rejected,

754
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: Like didn't you say when you're in the ring with

755
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: Mark once you were training him something like mucking around

756
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: because you knew he was doing a new album, you

757
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: better write a song about me. And he said it's

758
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: already been written.

759
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I text him. I'd had a couple of

760
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 3: training sessions and I sent him. He said, sent me

761
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: something and I wrote back, I intend to unleash so much,

762
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 3: Jim Trauma, you write a song about me on your

763
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: next album. Ha ha, And he wrote back the boxer

764
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: in inverted commas, it's already started. And then I still

765
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: didn't know it was true. And then later that night

766
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: he started asking me questions about my life and I

767
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: was like, what are you asking for? And he said

768
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: lyrics and I was like what, wow?

769
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: How good is that? Yeah?

770
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, money to get listen to this now it's weird.

771
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: It's weird. I want to circle back to one thing

772
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 1: we're talking about before Sam. Yeah, basically we're talking about

773
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: the busy badge. How I'm sure overseas listeners do it

774
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: as well, but in Australia we like, it's like we

775
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: have this busy badge which is almost like a social credit.

776
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: It's like that's the way that we get a prove.

777
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how are things? I'm busy? Busy. It's like

778
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: that's that's how we describe how we are, and the

779
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: word that we use is busy, So we must think

780
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: that that's a good thing to say. What is that about?

781
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: Why does that? Why is that such good currency?

782
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: That's a good question because I feel like it it's

783
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: like a slip of the tongue, you know, we all

784
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: just say it, you know, yep, been so busy. I

785
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: feel like I noticed myself doing that as well. But

786
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: if you think about what does busy mean, it's like, oh,

787
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 2: someone gave me this coat. It's like the mosquito and

788
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: the bee. They're both busy, but the bee's doing something

789
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: quite productive. I'm making honey. But then the mosquito is

790
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: just like biting people. So you kind of think about

791
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: what that busy iness filled with, because a lot of

792
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: the time we're busy with other people's demands and not

793
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: necessarily sitting with ourselves, and I think it becomes quite

794
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: a distraction.

795
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon, there's there's there's busy good and busy bad,

796
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 1: Busy productive, busy, unproductive, busy fun and busy frustrating.

797
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: But it's still taking us away from our goal. It

798
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: could be like I'm catching up this person and I'm,

799
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: you know, going shopping, and I'm doing all these things.

800
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: But hang on, didn't I say I have this huge

801
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: goal that I wanted to achieve this, that I wanted

802
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: to train, that I wanted to write that book, that

803
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to do that course. So I think it's

804
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: not necessarily things are inherently bad. It's just like, what

805
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: is our main goals here? And is the business taking

806
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: away from that or actually doing things that are moving

807
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: us towards living an aligned life right, living at our values?

808
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 1: Do you think we don't follow through? Often we don't

809
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: follow through on decisions or goals or intentions or resolutions

810
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: just because it sucks, like the process is not fun,

811
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: Like why do we make so many Why do we

812
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: say I'm going to do this and we don't do it? Like,

813
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty much everyone has done. I would

814
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: say ninety percent of the time. I'm guessing. But when

815
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: people say I'm going to do this ninety percent of

816
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: the time, they don't do it. What is that about?

817
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: Because it's hard and they're waiting for a time where

818
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: it might not be hard. So they're like, I really

819
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: want to do this thing, that life's a bit busy. Now,

820
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: I'll wait till the kids are older, I'll wait till

821
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: after this holiday. Because they think it's going to be

822
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: easier and that pure of life. But the truth is

823
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: it's actually going to be hard no matter what time.

824
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: It is, just like exercise, you know, like it's just

825
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: hard either way. And when we realize that, then we

826
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: don't wait for the perfect conditions because that will never exist,

827
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: and we just start to make those steps towards that.

828
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: Then, when you're building your business, you know, which is

829
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: quite not mainstream in the psychology therapy treatment space, Yeah,

830
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: did you? And I'm guessing there was a stage where

831
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: you didn't have heaps of confidence because, and I mean

832
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: this with love, you were just a girl that came

833
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: that left school early, dropped out and went and cut

834
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: hair right, and then how the fuck you ended up

835
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: with a PhD is incredible, But there must have been

836
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: a bit of pushback or at least some kind of

837
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: resistance setting up your business because your kind of therapy

838
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: is something of an outlier in the treatment world.

839
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, constantly. When you think about it, you're doing

840
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: something against the norm, right, You're creating something that's never

841
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: been created before, is what it feels like. Right when

842
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: you're you know, showing up and you're saying things that

843
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: most people don't want to hear. They want to hear

844
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: that you know, you're the expert and you're going to

845
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 2: give therapy full stop. They don't want to hear that

846
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: you've created something different and because and this different thing

847
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: is actually going to require a lot of deep work,

848
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: and it's going to require action. It's going to require

849
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: always hard things. So I think, yeah, there's definitely I

850
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: guess that what do you say, self doubt? But it's uncomfortable,

851
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 2: it's gross. But I like to lean into that too,

852
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: because I know that that's it means you're onto something,

853
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: right when you know that you've been i don't know,

854
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: trained in a certain way. We've been trained in that

855
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,959
Speaker 2: traditional way, and then I saw something that was missing,

856
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: and then I've created something that's missing. I know other

857
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: people are going to see that too, or other people are,

858
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: you know, feeling like how I am. So I think

859
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: when you create with that in mind, where you're like,

860
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: I'm making it for people like me, like us, well

861
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: we want more. It makes it, I think, a lot

862
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: easier because it's more of like a values driven mission

863
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: rather than a I must make this per packed.

864
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 1: Really there's you know, there's lots of good and bad

865
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: about university and study and research in general. There's some

866
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: really good stuff and some not so good stuff. But

867
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: what I like about at a PhD level, when you're

868
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: doing science, you've literally got to find a whole. You've

869
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: got to find a gap, you've got to find something

870
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: that's missing and then go. You can't do what's already

871
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: been done, you know, or even if you do open

872
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: a door on an area that's been done, you need

873
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: to bring something new to the table. And I like that,

874
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: and I like.

875
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 2: How much that pushed me too, because when I did

876
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: my qualitative and I found a lot of things that

877
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: were I probably could catch on too, and you know,

878
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 2: make the PhD out of that, and there were kind

879
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: of safe options there. Oh yeah, they've said this, I

880
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: could just run with this and you know, focus my

881
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: lens on that. But then they said something that was

882
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, and I was like, if I if I

883
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 2: say this, I'm going to expose the industry to point out,

884
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: you know that therapists do have bias as well, and

885
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: we're not above all this, and despite our training, right,

886
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: this does impact our work. And I was really scared.

887
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: It was almost like that good girl kind of conditioning

888
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: coming through, like I don't want to make anyone feel

889
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: bad or uncomfortable. And I remember publishing the study and

890
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: I was like expecting it to get rejected, and it did,

891
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: but with revision. So each of my two papers got

892
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: three revisions and then they accepted it. But when I

893
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: got my PhD, marked the comments around that, she actually

894
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: marked it in the top five percent of what she's seen,

895
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: and she said, I did that because you caught out,

896
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 2: like the elephant in the room. You said something that

897
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: most people don't talk about. And that was I thought,

898
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: really good. Because she was in the industry, she could

899
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: anyther way. She could have shut it down and got

900
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: all defensive, or she could have seen it for what

901
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: it is, which is I'm you know, working towards calling

902
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: this out so we can actually grow through that, we

903
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: can learn through that. So it was really great. But

904
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: it shows you that what research can reveal, Right, it's

905
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: not comfortable stuff, but it's things that we need to

906
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 2: hear so we can move forward.

907
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: And what people understandably don't understand who haven't been through

908
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: the process, which is most people, of course, is that

909
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: you you could have got another reviewer and maybe not

910
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: even got your PhD. You know, if they just kept

911
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: rejecting it. I mean you wouldn't you would have got

912
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: it eventually. But you know what I mean, where you

913
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 1: could have got like whoever that lady reviewed your work

914
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: and quite rightly recognized its uniqueness and its value and

915
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: all of that. But if you had another reviewer, and

916
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: by the way, yeah, so when you when you submit

917
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: a paper or a thesis, it gets reviewed and then

918
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: gets the going back and forth process is very normal.

919
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: In fact, it's pretty much to be expected. You don't

920
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: care in anything, and they go that's great, well done

921
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: in no revisions or no whatever. Yeah, because you could

922
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: have had somebody who was well and truly entrenched in

923
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: the traditional model who went, what the fuck are you

924
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: talking about?

925
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? And that's the thing. It's such a subjective experience

926
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: when you think about it. Even even with one of

927
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: the papers, they had two reviewers and the editor and

928
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: one reviewer was like, this is great. Ready as is yeah,

929
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: put it in, and the other one was like, no,

930
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 2: not at all, like no revisions, it just shouldn't be

931
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: in this paper. And the editor was like, Okay, these

932
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: are like polar opposites. I'm going to side with the

933
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: one that said yes, but here's some revisions. And they

934
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: ended up getting accepted. But it just showed you, like

935
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: literally the polar opposites of what they had said.

936
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: That's right, And that's when people think that in academia

937
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: at a certain level, it's all just science and objective

938
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: data analysis. It's absolutely not. Because you gave the same

939
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: work to two people who had different opinions. Yeah, you know,

940
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: different ideas different Like one thought it was great, one

941
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: didn't think it should even get considered, and they're looking

942
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: at the exact same thing. That's how imprecise science can be.

943
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: That's what people don't get. People think, Oh, it's like,

944
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: that's why I'm all the time saying when somebody says

945
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: the science tells us, just take that with a grain

946
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: of salt, because that really does not mean much. You know,

947
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: it depends what we're talking about specifically, but you.

948
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: Know, definitely I think people will take it as like

949
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: gospel and then they listen to that more than these

950
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: two and their own, Like you said, data from what

951
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: they're learning about themselves.

952
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, one hundred percent, Dr Sam. How can people

953
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: find you, follow you, connect with you, and come and

954
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: play with you for a huge hourly rate.

955
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: So I'm on Instagram, Dr Sam Casey or on my

956
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: website which is www dot dot samcc dot.

957
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: Com, Perfect Tiffany and Cook. Any closing words of wisdom

958
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: or insight or genius that you feel you just need

959
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: to dump on us before we say goodbye.

960
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: I've got nothing, bro, you.

961
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: Don't want to do a big dump before we leave.

962
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: No, I'll let you sleep easy.

963
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: Thanks all right, would say goodbye here, but Sam, thanks again,

964
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 1: appreciate you tip.

965
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 2: Thanks all right, Thanks guys,