Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven Am. Barnaby
Speaker 1: Joyce has always been considered a political maverick, and it's
Speaker 1: this status as a bit of an outsider that's allowed
Speaker 1: him to weather numerous political scandals during his two decades
Speaker 1: in parliament. But now he says he's leaving the National Party,
Speaker 1: and as it comes to light that he's been speaking
Speaker 1: with Pauline Hanson, there's talk he may jump across to
Speaker 1: one nation. So how out of place would Barnaby Joyce
Speaker 1: be in Pauline Hanson's party. Today journalist and founder of
Speaker 1: Rampart News Joe Aston on whether this is the end
Speaker 1: of Barnaby's turbulent career in politics or the start of
Speaker 1: a new chapter. It's Saturday, October twenty five, Joe. On Tuesday,
Speaker 1: Barnaby Joyce gave a frankly bizarre press conference in Tamworth.
Speaker 1: Me through what he had to say.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't think he expected his talks
Speaker 2: with Pauline Hansen to become public when they did, and
Speaker 2: that's sort of put him in an awkward situation.
Speaker 3: It completely blew my weekend out of the water. It
Speaker 3: made things incredibly awkward and I just thought, okay.
Speaker 2: But ultimately there he was trying to explain how he
Speaker 2: was such a loyal guy that he was going to
Speaker 2: not run again in his seat of New England.
Speaker 3: This is a really hard decision that I made, and
Speaker 3: I thought of it over a very long period of
Speaker 3: time as things got sort of worse, worse and worse,
Speaker 3: to be honest, and now I've made it. There's nothing
Speaker 3: that's changed in the last couple of days.
Speaker 2: That he was going to not quit the Nationals and
Speaker 2: remain in Parliament as a Nationals MP, but not attend
Speaker 2: party room meetings because his relationships had broken down so
Speaker 2: badly with his colleagues.
Speaker 3: Look, I look, I just it's been a pretty traumatic issue.
Speaker 3: I'm still basically a member of the National Party. I
Speaker 3: have not joined another party, but I think that's for
Speaker 3: me to consider over time, and you can't.
Speaker 2: And then what was to happen subsequent to the next
Speaker 2: election was all something that he would like to remain
Speaker 2: a mystery.
Speaker 3: I'm not a member of one nation. I have not
Speaker 3: asked for a membership form. I'm still a member of
Speaker 3: the National Party, you know. But that's I'm being as
Speaker 3: honest as I can so I don't talk in riddles
Speaker 3: to you.
Speaker 2: So, as you can imagine, there are many many questions
Speaker 2: that Barnaby faced in relation to all of those ambiguities
Speaker 2: that made it difficult for his fancy his self narrative
Speaker 2: to survive.
Speaker 1: He said that his relationship with the current party leadership
Speaker 1: had like a sadness in some marriage is broken down.
Speaker 3: David mentioned a generational change of the last election. That's
Speaker 3: the reason that he was moving on from me. Generational.
Speaker 3: If you my partner, and you came home one night
Speaker 3: and said, look for reasons of generational change, I don't
Speaker 3: think this relationship's going well, you'd think that was pretty
Speaker 3: much it. And if they said, well we don't want
Speaker 3: you to go out and campaign anywhere, that's like saying, well,
Speaker 3: I also don't want you to go to any parties
Speaker 3: with me or be seen in public with me.
Speaker 1: So exactly how bad have things gotten in that party room?
Speaker 2: Well, that's been a dysfunctional party room for a long time.
Speaker 2: The terminal government was when Barnaby Joyce had to resign
Speaker 2: as Deputy Prime Minister over his extramarital affair with one
Speaker 2: of his staff who's now his partner. So that's when
Speaker 2: Michael McCormack became Deputy Prime Minister, and of course Barnaby
Speaker 2: then sat on the back bench undermining Michael McCormack and
Speaker 2: then tore him down as leader and replaced him, and
Speaker 2: then he lost the leadership.
Speaker 4: To David Little Proud.
Speaker 2: And has been sitting on the back bench doing undermining again,
Speaker 2: and Michael McCormack's been doing a bit of his own.
Speaker 2: So there's almost like twelve factions in the National Party Room,
Speaker 2: you know, one faction for each person. Barnaby would like
Speaker 2: us to believe that his relationship with the National Party
Speaker 2: and with the leader, David Little Proud, has broken down
Speaker 2: irreparably like a marriage. But in actuality, all that's happened
Speaker 2: is that the National Party room doesn't want Barnaby Joyce
Speaker 2: to be its leader now or ever, and to him that's.
Speaker 4: The same thing.
Speaker 2: A normal person would understand that that's the position, sit
Speaker 2: on the back bench, be a member of the team
Speaker 2: and accept that they can't be the leader. But for Barnaby,
Speaker 2: any relationship in which he is not the bright shining
Speaker 2: star is irreparably broken.
Speaker 1: So it came out that Barnaby and Polint Hanson had
Speaker 1: been talking behind the scenes for some time, but immediately
Speaker 1: after he gave that press conference, Polin Hanson came out
Speaker 1: and was publicly calling Barnaby to come across to one nation.
Speaker 3: Barnaby, I'll open you, open the doors for you, come
Speaker 3: across one nation.
Speaker 1: What are the chances of that actually happening and would
Speaker 1: it be a good fit.
Speaker 2: I think Barnaby made it clear from the very beginning
Speaker 2: when he was elected to Parliament at the two thousand
Speaker 2: and four election, that the party line and the rules
Speaker 2: of the party system I really need to hear all
Speaker 2: there to him. And so it's not that surprising to
Speaker 2: think that, having been so disloyal to so many different
Speaker 2: iterations of the Liberal and National Party governments and oppositions,
Speaker 2: that he would think twice about moving to another party.
Speaker 2: And you know, he battled one Nation over the years
Speaker 2: in elections. But really Barnaby is one of the early
Speaker 2: populists two thousand and four we didn't really use that expression,
Speaker 2: but you know, Barnaby's views on the world are very
Speaker 2: similar to Paul and Hanson's, Clive Palmer's, and without drawing
Speaker 2: too long ago, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: So why wouldn't Barnaby Joyce go to One Nation. I
Speaker 4: think it'd be a perfect fit.
Speaker 3: I actually did ring her last night, I said on
Speaker 3: the front set because I thought, seeing they're talking about us,
Speaker 3: all of us will speak to each other rather than
Speaker 3: speak through the media.
Speaker 4: Said good eight.
Speaker 3: Nothing is locked in, nothing is you know, and I've
Speaker 3: gone from.
Speaker 1: Even How would you describe their relationship betwe between Barnaby
Speaker 1: and Pauline though over the years. Would it be a
Speaker 1: perfect fit in terms of both of those egos being
Speaker 1: in the same room at the same time.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a perfect fit for those of us who
Speaker 2: are looking for entertainment and there will be no shortage
Speaker 2: of that. Then Pauline Hanson, much like Clive Palmer, has
Speaker 2: fallen out with every counterparty they've ever had in politics.
Speaker 2: David Oldfield, I mean Clive Palmer was with Jackie Lamby
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. There is no reason
Speaker 2: to expect that the relationship between Pauline Hanson and Barnaby
Speaker 2: Joyce would not end up in the same way. Pauline
Speaker 2: Hanson will really, let's face it, be loath who ever
Speaker 2: surrender the leadership of One Nation, but.
Speaker 3: At some stage Hanson's One Nation Party at some stage
Speaker 3: someone else deleted it.
Speaker 4: Totally agree with you, Chris. I'm not that stupid.
Speaker 3: I'm not. I haven't got an ego that big mind.
Speaker 2: She's even got her name in the name, the legal
Speaker 2: name of the party. It's legally called Pauline Hanson's One
Speaker 2: Nation and Barnaby. I will be highly amused. And I'm
Speaker 2: also almost hoping that Barnaby falls for the promises of
Speaker 2: Polane Hanson goes to One Nation and finds out that
Speaker 2: an actual factor, she has every intention of being carried
Speaker 2: out of the Senate in a box, and that Barnaby
Speaker 2: Joyce is never going to be the leader.
Speaker 4: I mean, that will be fun to watch.
Speaker 1: Coming up. Will any others followed Barnaby to the exit? Jae,
Speaker 1: You describe Barnaby Joyce as political novel chock in your view,
Speaker 1: Why has he been so uniquely destructive to the Coalition
Speaker 1: over the past two decades.
Speaker 2: Well, it's just who he is, just a purely self
Speaker 2: interested political product. He's never had any interest at all,
Speaker 2: even necessarily in winning. It's all about himself, in his
Speaker 2: own aggrandizement and being the center of attention, and.
Speaker 4: That's worked for him.
Speaker 2: Barnaby Joyce has been very successful as a populist on
Speaker 2: the fringes and at the same time be absolutely repugnant
Speaker 2: to your average middle metropolitan voter, and that's why they've
Speaker 2: had to keep him hidden away in his electorate. Not
Speaker 2: that Peter Dunton had a great much more success than Barnaby,
Speaker 2: but you know the point is, every time Barnaby Joyce
Speaker 2: or Matt Canavan talk about how much they hate net zero,
Speaker 2: your average person in the city thinks that the Coalition
Speaker 2: are a pack of climate change denies.
Speaker 4: And that's because the large part of them are.
Speaker 3: So Whether is the source of this and the head
Speaker 3: of the serpent is net zero? A lunatic policy, complete lunacy.
Speaker 2: That's just hugely toxic for the Liberal Party in the cities,
Speaker 2: and that's why they've lost so many seats. At the
Speaker 2: same time, people do love him in the country. I
Speaker 2: think he's definitely got popularity. He seemed to cut through
Speaker 2: and you know he got this. He's got this brand
Speaker 2: of being no nonsense, which is highly ironic because all
Speaker 2: he speaks is nonsense.
Speaker 1: He's often described as a political maverick. Do you think
Speaker 1: that status and that branding has actually helped him brush
Speaker 1: off all these scandals over the years.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, it's a really good question. When did it
Speaker 4: go from professional to romantic?
Speaker 3: I think we were closed for a long time before
Speaker 3: there was anything, a long time after other people thought
Speaker 3: it out.
Speaker 2: That's look, he got the first person to have an
Speaker 2: office affair in politics, but it came at a very
Speaker 2: febrile time. Globally, the me too movement was in full light,
Speaker 2: and it was before the Britney Higgins scandal, but there
Speaker 2: was already a real feeling in Australia that people were
Speaker 2: fed up with the way politicians behaved in Canberra. I mean,
Speaker 2: not that Barnaby's really reformed his way. As we all know,
Speaker 2: he was found gibbering frustrate on the footpath one sitting
Speaker 2: night earlier this year.
Speaker 4: The brief video appears to show the front Beat.
Speaker 3: You're laying beside a plant box swearing into his phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wouldn't have sunk a lesser politician. To be fair
Speaker 2: to him, he does break the mold a bit. And
Speaker 2: the thing is Barnaby has no shame, and he doesn't
Speaker 2: really have any consistent views on anything, and he has
Speaker 2: no serious solutions for policy problems. So therefore it's very
Speaker 2: hard to hurt it politically and in many respects. That
Speaker 2: describes Donald Trump and Nigel Farage and others who have
Speaker 2: been successful. Now, obviously no one is suggesting that Barnaby
Speaker 2: Joyce could ever lead Australia. And the difference, of course
Speaker 2: in Australia, as the right wing of the National Party
Speaker 2: and the hard right wing of the Liberal Party continue
Speaker 2: to misunderstand, is Australia is a compulsory voting preferential system.
Speaker 2: You win elections from the middle, and that is completely
Speaker 2: different to the US and the UK, which are voluntary
Speaker 2: voting systems where you win the elections by getting people
Speaker 2: to vote by energizing voters with the most polarizing views.
Speaker 2: So this dreamland that Barnaby Joyce and others of his
Speaker 2: ilk live in where they watch Sky News and believes
Speaker 2: that being more conservative is the answer for the Liberal
Speaker 2: Party in the National Party is going to lead them
Speaker 2: to shrink even further.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how badly they.
Speaker 2: Want to lose, but I don't know who the last
Speaker 2: person will be standing when they turn off the lights.
Speaker 1: Probably Barnaby. He's announced that he'll quit the party and
Speaker 1: not recontest the next election. What's the reaction being in
Speaker 1: the broader coalition to his announcement.
Speaker 2: Well, look, everyone has to be careful what they say,
Speaker 2: right because Barnaby will change his mind. Barnabill come back.
Speaker 2: The shifting sands and fashions and allegiance has changed. So
Speaker 2: you don't want to be stapled to what you've said
Speaker 2: about Barnaby on the record. But certainly behind closed doors
Speaker 2: there are many Liberal MPs who would be very happy
Speaker 2: to see the back of him. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: the National Party quite understandably fought very effectively a national
Speaker 2: campaign to win the seats that they won and having
Speaker 2: already lost, you center price to lose Barnaby Joyce. You know,
Speaker 2: they're not a huge party room. It's a really big
Speaker 2: loss to lose two MPs in quick succession. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that it's a big loss to lose those two individuals,
Speaker 2: but it's a big loss to lose those seats. And
Speaker 2: you know, as been discovered time and again, once an
Speaker 2: independent holds a seat, it's very hard to get you back.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Barnaby of course is not going to run again in
Speaker 2: that seat, so he says today.
Speaker 4: But you know, it's then again a wide open contest.
Speaker 2: Will the Nats be able to win that seat next
Speaker 2: time or will some independent come out of nowhere and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden it's a loss.
Speaker 1: What does it all say about the state of leadership
Speaker 1: inside the Nationals under David Little Prowd, Well.
Speaker 2: I look, in some respects you almost have to have
Speaker 2: some sympathy for Barnaby's position. It wouldn't be the most
Speaker 2: inspiring flag to follow, would it. David Little Proud is
Speaker 2: a bit of a bag of hammers, and he's certainly
Speaker 2: know John Anderson, and he's certainly know Tim Fisher. But
Speaker 2: that's sort of the quality of politics in general. The
Speaker 2: leaders of today. They are not like the leaders of yesterday.
Speaker 2: And maybe everyone says that when they're old, how good
Speaker 2: with the good old days? But I am constantly flabbergasted
Speaker 2: at the just abysmal quality of the political class in
Speaker 2: Australia today.
Speaker 1: Could Barnaby's potential defection to one nation trigger others to follow?
Speaker 2: I think so yeah, And I think that's the real
Speaker 2: threat here. There's no real loss, you know, losing Barnaby
Speaker 2: Joyce in fact, is a victory. The real risk here
Speaker 2: is contagion where Barnaby also takes you know, Matt Canavan,
Speaker 2: you know, in a couple of other MPs and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden you got five people jump over. The
Speaker 2: National Party loses thirty or forty percent of its party
Speaker 2: room in one hit. That is the real risk here.
Speaker 2: Barnaby talks about a marriage that is a reparably broken down.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you the only marriage that's actually a reparably
Speaker 2: broken down here is the marriage between the Liberal Party
Speaker 2: and the National Party. And when the National Party after
Speaker 2: the election in May had their tantrum and said we're
Speaker 2: not going to stay in the coalition, the biggest mistake
Speaker 2: certainly made was not to stand down and wave goodbye
Speaker 2: and say thanks for coming. Frankly, the Liberal Party would
Speaker 2: be better off as a standalone party with its own
Speaker 2: policies that have peeled a middle Australia, and they could
Speaker 2: figure out at a later point whether or not they
Speaker 2: wish to govern with the National Party. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just the death spiral that they're in with the National
Speaker 2: Party strapped to them and denying any need for climate action.
Speaker 2: That's the existential problem, not just for the Liberal Party
Speaker 2: but for Australia, because regardless of whether you a Liberal
Speaker 2: or a Labor supporter, what Australia needs is a strong
Speaker 2: two party system. It is not good for Australia for
Speaker 2: the Labor Party or for any party to be completely dominant.
Speaker 4: That's the one that I really worry about.
Speaker 1: Well, Joe, it's going to be interesting to watch. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for your insights.
Speaker 4: On coming on the show. My Pleasure. Thanks JN.
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