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Speaker 1: Hey, let's talk about the right to disconnect laws. You've

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Speaker 1: heard about them on five Double A News this morning.

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Speaker 1: Spoke about it last Thursday with Tim Downie from Johnston Withers.

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Speaker 1: He raised them as part of his legal chat. But

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Speaker 1: they do take effect from today and workers will be

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Speaker 1: able to ignore non emergency after hours work calls or

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Speaker 1: reply to emails from their bosses within reasonable boundaries. The

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Speaker 1: new rules apply to all businesses with more than fifteen

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Speaker 1: workers and it's certainly something unions have welcome this morning.

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Speaker 1: Not sure that there was any great call for this,

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Speaker 1: but nevertheless they have been enacted and take effect from today.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean for you and me? Professor Andrew Stewart,

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Speaker 1: Professor of Law, UNI of Adelaide, Andrew.

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Speaker 2: Good morning morning, that's your morning to listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your time. So what does this mean

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Speaker 1: now that a boss simply can't call? Can they make

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Speaker 1: arrangements if necessary? If it's a twenty four to seven

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Speaker 1: type business to have somebody on standby, how does it?

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Speaker 1: How's it going to work moving forward?

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Speaker 2: So this is definitely a flexible new law, so there's

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Speaker 2: no sort of hard dos and don't see the general

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Speaker 2: principle exactly. The one you said is that you can

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Speaker 2: refuse to look at a text or an email or

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Speaker 2: take a call, not just from your boss but from

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Speaker 2: anyone else if it's about your work outside your working hours,

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Speaker 2: that's the starting point. But you can only do that

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Speaker 2: if it's unreasonable. So if, for example, you're in the

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Speaker 2: kind of job where you're being paid to be on

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Speaker 2: standby or on call, it's quite clear in that situation

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Speaker 2: that it's perfectly okay to not just get a call,

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Speaker 2: get a message, but be expected to return it because

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Speaker 2: you're being paid to be available. So for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, say you work in emergency services areas or

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Speaker 2: who do it support and so on, that'll be the case.

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Speaker 2: Then it always depends on the circumstances, Like if the

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Speaker 2: message is to tell you you've got a promotion and a

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Speaker 2: pay rise, clearly it's you know, it's not it's not

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Speaker 2: going to be reasonable to say, well, look, I'm never

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Speaker 2: going to pay any attention to messages of that sort.

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Speaker 2: Or and this one's probably more serious one that will

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Speaker 2: apply in more situations. If your employer has got some

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Speaker 2: concerns about your well being and is trying to get

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Speaker 2: in touch with you, to make sure you're okay. It's

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Speaker 2: perfectly reasonable for them to do that. What we expect

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Speaker 2: to see and this really should already be the case

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Speaker 2: because we've had six months to get ready for this,

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Speaker 2: is that particularly larger organizations should already have been having

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Speaker 2: some conversations with this staff about this. I know, you know,

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Speaker 2: in my workplace, even before the new law came in,

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Speaker 2: this was something that was already starting to get talked about.

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Speaker 2: And you know, different people will have different attitudes to it,

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Speaker 2: but the important thing is that employers have some policies

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Speaker 2: in place that employers make some effort to keep communications

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Speaker 2: to working hours unless it's necessary. But understanding that different

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Speaker 2: workers are going to have different views about this, and

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Speaker 2: some people, and I'm very definitely one of them, are

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Speaker 2: not going to be fussed at all about continuing to

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Speaker 2: look at their messages after hours. Others, however, we're going

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Speaker 2: to say, hey, you know what, I want more of

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Speaker 2: a clear break between my work and my personal life,

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Speaker 2: and I want to be left alone when I'm with

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Speaker 2: my family or away from work.

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Speaker 1: Will an employer have to justify what's reasonable? Will he

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Speaker 1: be able to will he be asked to prove what

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Speaker 1: is reasonable if there's a complaint.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So if this issue is brought up, it can

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Speaker 2: go to the most obvious place it would go the

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Speaker 2: dispute about this is the Fair Work Commission, and then

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Speaker 2: it's up to the employer to show they've got some

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Speaker 2: reason for contacting you. But in the end, if the

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Speaker 2: employer's got a plausible reason for getting in touch, they're

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Speaker 2: going to be for the worker to say, well, because

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Speaker 2: of my personal circumstances, because I don't think it was

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Speaker 2: absolutely essential that I reply right away, it couldn't wait

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Speaker 2: till working hours, it was reasonable for me to refuse.

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Speaker 2: So it's a bit of both. It's not going to

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Speaker 2: be all on the employer to show what's reasonable or

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Speaker 2: all on the employee to say, you know, it's reasonable

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Speaker 2: for me to refuse. Going to depend on the circumstances

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Speaker 2: and the longer things go on, And if we do

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Speaker 2: start to see some cases coming before the Commission about this,

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Speaker 2: which I think we might, then we'll start to get

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Speaker 2: a clear idea of what the ground rules are in

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Speaker 2: different industries and different types of jobs.

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Speaker 1: Do we want the Fair Work Commission clogged up in

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Speaker 1: this way? Though? People just querying getting a text or

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Speaker 1: a phone call or an email.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's been you mentioned before. You weren't sure that

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Speaker 2: there was a call for this. There's certainly been some

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Speaker 2: evidence about this. So the Senate inquiry, for example, into

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Speaker 2: work and Care and another inquiry into job security has

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Speaker 2: shown that there are people who get stressed by the

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Speaker 2: fact that they're expected to, you know, even when they

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Speaker 2: might only have casual or part time jobs, that they're

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Speaker 2: expected to be constantly available. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: professional jobs where it can be really really hard for

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Speaker 2: people to set aside time for their personal knights. So

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Speaker 2: there's some evidence out there that there's concern about that. Certainly,

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Speaker 2: if we saw a ton of cases going to the

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Speaker 2: Fair Work Commission and they're all about highly individual circumstances,

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Speaker 2: then yeah, that might create a concern, But I think

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Speaker 2: that's really really unlikely. I think it's much more likely

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Speaker 2: that what we're going to see here is that there'll

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Speaker 2: be some industries where unions will raise issues for a

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Speaker 2: group of workers about what's reasonable or unreasonable, and the

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Speaker 2: Fair Work Commission will help sort that out. But look,

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Speaker 2: most employers, I think are not going to have too

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Speaker 2: much of a problem about this, provided they've just made

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Speaker 2: some basic effort to set out some ground rules and

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Speaker 2: make sure that everyone understands that. Look, you know, here

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Speaker 2: are the circumstances in which it's reasonable for you to

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Speaker 2: respond while out of ours. But at the same time

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Speaker 2: we're going to make an effort to give you more

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Speaker 2: clear personal time.

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Speaker 1: All right. Davis called in with what I think is

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Speaker 1: going to be an excellent question about time zones. David

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Speaker 1: Albert and good morning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good morning guys. Look, I deal my general managers

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Speaker 3: in Sydney, and I deal with a customer base in Perth,

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Speaker 3: which during the summertime it's two and a half hour

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Speaker 3: time zone different. So I VM here it's only half

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Speaker 3: US two in the afternoon over there in Perth. Just

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Speaker 3: wondering how that's going to translate across this new legislation.

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Speaker 2: It's a great question, Dave. I mean, ordinarily it will

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Speaker 2: be the question of what your normal working hours are.

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Speaker 2: So if you're normally being paid to do your work

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Speaker 2: perhaps starting a bit later in the day than other

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Speaker 2: people finishing finishing a bit later, then that's clearly not

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Speaker 2: a problem. At the same time, if your boss has

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Speaker 2: been expecting you to take calls from Perth, even though

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Speaker 2: you've formally knocked off for the day, Well, maybe that

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Speaker 2: has to be looked at again. There are going to

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Speaker 2: be more extreme examples of this though, for people who

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Speaker 2: are doing business with overseas companies and where it's it's

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Speaker 2: often the case that it's sort of well into the

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Speaker 2: evening that they may need to respond to queries that

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Speaker 2: are coming in from London or they're getting inquiries first

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Speaker 2: thing in the morning from the US. The issue there

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Speaker 2: is really going to be if you're being expected to

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Speaker 2: work at those unreasonable hours, are you being properly compensated

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Speaker 2: for that. Now, for a lot of people in the

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Speaker 2: high paid professional jobs where perhaps it's more likely going

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Speaker 2: to be having to have contact with clients overseas at

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Speaker 2: very odd times of the day, from an Australian perspective,

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Speaker 2: if you're getting paid a reasonable amount of money to

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Speaker 2: do that, which a lot of people are, then that's

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Speaker 2: going to be a sufficient answer. So getting paid appropriately

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Speaker 2: to recogni eyes some inconvenience, that's already the case, that

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Speaker 2: will continue and that's likely to provide a good answer

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Speaker 2: to any complaint that you know you can't be contacted

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Speaker 2: at those times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So something for all employers, as you say,

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Speaker 1: to have considered up until now because it is in force,

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Speaker 1: and would an employer need to, perhaps with an existing employee,

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Speaker 1: certainly with a new hire, where perhaps that may be expected,

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Speaker 1: you'd make that clear as part of the terms and

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Speaker 1: conditions of the job, wouldn't you, I would imagine, But

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Speaker 1: for real, Yeah, go on, Well, I was going to say,

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Speaker 1: for existing employees who may have had calls outside ours

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, would they need now an employer to

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Speaker 1: present them with a piece of paper saying you know

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Speaker 1: your job is changing a little bit, please agree to this.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's probably not going to be the case that

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Speaker 2: the employer needs to get their employees to agree to something.

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Speaker 2: Employers need to recognize that this is a new right

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Speaker 2: that employees have, and employers should adjust their policies to

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Speaker 2: take account of that. What employers should be doing, for

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Speaker 2: both existing and new employees is laying out the boundaries

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Speaker 2: of what's reasonable and what's not. And that's already the

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Speaker 2: case across a wide range of other areas. So whether

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Speaker 2: it's use of it, whether it's harassment and bullying in

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Speaker 2: the workplace, whether it's your personal appearance, which matters a lot.

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Speaker 2: Certain employees. Increasingly, we've seen employers putting policies and procedures

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Speaker 2: in place, they're usually going to be available online. This

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Speaker 2: is just going to be another one that it would

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Speaker 2: be sensible to have some ground rules on. But again

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Speaker 2: seems to me a lot of this can be sorted

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Speaker 2: out by common sense. And the main thing I'd expect

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Speaker 2: to see, and i've, as I say, I already seen

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Speaker 2: this in my own workplace at university, is some workers

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Speaker 2: effectively saying, hey, you can email me any time of

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Speaker 2: the day or night, but not going to respond until

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Speaker 2: it's working hours. And as long as you know those

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Speaker 2: workers understand that there'll be others who you know are

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Speaker 2: perhaps a bit more willing to go the extra mile,

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Speaker 2: that won't be a problem. If there's going to be

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Speaker 2: an issue here, I suspect it may be if you

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Speaker 2: start seeing complaints emerging that it's the people who are

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Speaker 2: prepared to work at any time of the day or

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Speaker 2: night and be constantly responsive, you know, who are getting

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Speaker 2: the promotions or the better jobs, or you know, getting

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Speaker 2: the higher pay, and that people are being penalized for

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Speaker 2: setting clearer boundaries between their work and their personal lives.

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Speaker 2: If we start to see those cases, then that's going

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Speaker 2: to be something really to keep an eye on. But

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Speaker 2: in the first instance, this is for most businesses, you know,

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Speaker 2: having conversations with your staff, accepting there should be some boundaries,

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Speaker 2: being flexible about it, and expecting your workers to be

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Speaker 2: flexible as well, And for the most part, I think

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Speaker 2: we'll see this introduced pretty smoothly.

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Speaker 1: See that's really interesting what you've just said then, about

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Speaker 1: people being penalized for just wanting to do what the

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Speaker 1: law allows them to do, as opposed to those who

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Speaker 1: are going that extra mile, because well, that is traditionally

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Speaker 1: how you get ahead. And you know, if I was

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Speaker 1: to cite myself as an example, and people would say this,

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Speaker 1: I hear you on the radio all the time. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever get any sleep in the old days when

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Speaker 1: I was in the newsroom looking after people filling in

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Speaker 1: on air and whatever. And the answer was, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing it necessarily to get ahead. I'm doing it

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Speaker 1: because I love it, and that's what it was. So

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Speaker 1: I was always available for work and it sort of

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Speaker 1: became a priority, but it's because it was a hobby.

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Speaker 1: You know, that old saying you love what you do,

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Speaker 1: you're not working, so where does that then leave people

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Speaker 1: who do want to get ahead and don't mind the

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Speaker 1: call because they see it as an opportunity to make

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Speaker 1: their market. When the boss thinks of someone reliable, it's them,

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Speaker 1: And perhaps they do get a bonus at the end

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Speaker 1: of it because they're always there and got on them

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Speaker 1: for always being there. The workplace needs people like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I think most organizations will figure out

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Speaker 2: a way to handle this in a way that it's

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Speaker 2: not discouraging people from putting it because yeah, exactly what

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Speaker 2: you're saying, Matthew, that's how I characterize my attitude to work.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I should say congratulations, because this is

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Speaker 2: the first conversation I've had with someone in the media

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Speaker 2: about the right to disconnect that actually took place during

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Speaker 2: working out. Every other time I've had the conversation, it's

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Speaker 2: always been out of hours. It's super early, super late weekend, brilliant.

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Speaker 2: But look, yes, you don't want to people from being enthusiastic,

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Speaker 2: But there's also some evidence that says that people can

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Speaker 2: actually be more productive. This is not everyone, but for

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Speaker 2: some people, they will actually be more productive if they've

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Speaker 2: got a clearer sense of time away from work. If

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Speaker 2: they're able to focus their energies on working while they're

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Speaker 2: at work, and the work is not just stretching out

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Speaker 2: into their evenings and their weekends causing them to lose sleep,

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Speaker 2: you know, not doing the kind of things they do.

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Speaker 2: So for some people and for summer organizations, there is

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Speaker 2: actually a way forward here to greater productivity, even for

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Speaker 2: workers who might want to work less in total, but

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Speaker 2: who work more effectively while they're actually doing it. So

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Speaker 2: ultimately this comes down to good management and to how

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Speaker 2: you deal with different people and get the best out

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: All right, thank you for your time, Andrew, really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Timmy reminded me, did text you out of ours? Though

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Speaker 1: we might be talking within, but the text thank you.

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Speaker 1: Professor Andrew Stewart there, who is Professor of Law at

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Speaker 1: UNI of Adelaide, right to disconnect law's kick in today.

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Speaker 1: How interesting is that