WEBVTT - Part 2: The fall of the Murdoch empire

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<v Speaker 1>Hi. This is part two of our interview with the

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<v Speaker 1>journalist McKay coppins. If you haven't yet, start by listening

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<v Speaker 1>to part one, James and Rupert Murdoch's Bitter Meltdown. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the cardinal Murdoch family rules is that you must

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<v Speaker 1>never speak about the family outside the family. So when

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<v Speaker 1>journalist McKay coppins got in touch with James Murdoch last year,

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<v Speaker 1>he really wasn't expecting a reply. But McKay was curious

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<v Speaker 1>about what would happen to the Murdoch empire when Rupert died,

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<v Speaker 1>and what it would mean for his youngest son, James,

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<v Speaker 1>who seemed outcast from the family. What he didn't yet

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<v Speaker 1>know was that there was already a secret, high stakes

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<v Speaker 1>legal battle going on, and James was ready to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Here's part two of my interview with McKay coppins. So, McKay,

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<v Speaker 1>during the time that you were speaking with James, it

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<v Speaker 1>emerged that his father, Rupert Murdock, had mounted this legal

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<v Speaker 1>challenge that, had it been successful, would have essentially evicted

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<v Speaker 1>James and his two sisters from a company in Lachlan's favor.

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<v Speaker 1>What did James say to you about the moment that

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<v Speaker 1>he found out about that plan, well.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a pretty dramatic moment, but kind of belied

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<v Speaker 2>by how it was actually delivered, which was on a

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<v Speaker 2>zoom call with Rupert and a number of lawyers and

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<v Speaker 2>then his various children, and Rupert kind of read robotically

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<v Speaker 2>from a script that had been prepared for him. Lochlin

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<v Speaker 2>busied himself at an offscreen laptop, but what was happening

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<v Speaker 2>was Rupert was essentially telling his kids, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>disenfranchise all of you except for Lachlan and give him

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<v Speaker 2>complete control of the empire. It felt like a betrayal

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<v Speaker 2>to James. His own mother had actually been the one

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<v Speaker 2>who'd insisted on rewriting the family trust back in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineties to ensure that all four of the oldest children

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<v Speaker 2>would have an equal say in the companies. The idea

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<v Speaker 2>was that it would incentivize them to work together. She

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<v Speaker 2>had seen how Rupert kind of played his kids off

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<v Speaker 2>each other, how he pitted them against each other. She

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<v Speaker 2>worried that they would be kind of consumed with a

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<v Speaker 2>quest for the crown, and she wanted them to find

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<v Speaker 2>a way to work together. And Rupert's decision in these

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the twilight of his life. To say, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>forget all that, I'm just going to give this all

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<v Speaker 2>to my favorite and oldest son really felt like not

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<v Speaker 2>just a betrayal of him, but also of their mother's wishes.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course James and his sisters they contested Rupert's

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<v Speaker 1>attempts to change the trust, and the case made it

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<v Speaker 1>to court. Can you tell me a bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>day that it started in Nevada?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So on that day, James and his wife and

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<v Speaker 2>his sisters all pulled up at the courthouse in Reno, Nevada.

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<v Speaker 2>They walked up. About thirty minutes later, Rupert and Lachlan

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<v Speaker 2>and their team pulled up. Makes a note of the

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<v Speaker 2>confident of victory Adi Koma. They had actually coordinated with

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<v Speaker 2>each other to ensure that they didn't arrive at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time, because they didn't want the cameras there to

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<v Speaker 2>capture the hostility that now defind their family. But the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that James remembers most from that first day in

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<v Speaker 2>the courthouse was he got to the courtroom and he

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<v Speaker 2>told me that he had planned to kind of approach

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<v Speaker 2>the proceedings in the spirit of kind of corporate combat, right,

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<v Speaker 2>He said, I'm good at that. I know how to

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<v Speaker 2>act in those settings. But he got into the courtroom

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<v Speaker 2>and he found that he was surprised by how emotional

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<v Speaker 2>he was. He said, he, you know, just looked across

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<v Speaker 2>the courtroom at his father and his brother, and these

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<v Speaker 2>are men that he had known, you know, his whole life,

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<v Speaker 2>whom he had loved, he'd shared all these memories with,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were now completely estranged from one another, involved

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<v Speaker 2>in this bitter legal battle. And he said, the question

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<v Speaker 2>he just kept asking himself and has continued to ask

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<v Speaker 2>himself since, is how did we let it come to this?

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that's still a question he hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been able to answer.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the time this was all happening behind closed doors,

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<v Speaker 1>it was secret. But the bulk of the trial record

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<v Speaker 1>has been leagud. And obviously you've spoken to James at

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<v Speaker 1>length about what happened in court. What did he say

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<v Speaker 1>about what it was like to give evidence?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, even before the day in the court he

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<v Speaker 2>was deposed, and he said that he sat down across

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<v Speaker 2>from his father and his father's lawyer, and by this

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<v Speaker 2>point he hadn't seen his he hadn't talked to his

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<v Speaker 2>father in years. They were fully estranged at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>but they sat down for the deposition, and the lawyer

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<v Speaker 2>kind of spent multiple hours just firing these questions at

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<v Speaker 2>James that were really kind of disdainful and withering. They

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<v Speaker 2>were questions like, have you ever done anything successful on

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<v Speaker 2>your own? And why don't you take responsibility for your actions?

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<v Speaker 2>And why didn't you call your father on his ninetieth

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<v Speaker 2>birthday and things like that, and James said he did

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<v Speaker 2>his best to focus on the lawyer's questions, but he

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<v Speaker 2>kept looking over at his dad, who just was staring

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<v Speaker 2>at him kind of inscrutably, and every once in a

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<v Speaker 2>while would pick up his phone and text questions to

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<v Speaker 2>the lawyer to ask him. And, as you can imagine,

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<v Speaker 2>just an incredibly bizarre and, in his words, twisted experience

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<v Speaker 2>that he hasn't really been able to forget.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break James's vision for the future of Fox News.

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<v Speaker 1>So it does ultimately seem like Rupert believes that the

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<v Speaker 1>only person who will preserve his empire the way that

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<v Speaker 1>he imagines it is Lachlan. What did James say about

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<v Speaker 1>what he thinks should be done to address Fox News's output, specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>what sense do you have of how he might actually

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<v Speaker 1>like to change things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, it's clear that James does not think Fox

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<v Speaker 2>News is being operated correctly.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>He sees it as kind of a blight on his

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<v Speaker 2>family name, a menace to American democracy. Certainly. He described

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<v Speaker 2>the Fox News formula as lying to your audience to

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<v Speaker 2>juice ratings. What would happen to Fox News if James

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<v Speaker 2>had his way? As an interesting question. He was pretty

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<v Speaker 2>cautious with me whenever I would ask that question. But

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<v Speaker 2>one thing he said to me repeatedly was that it's

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<v Speaker 2>not that Fox News needs to become a liberal network.

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<v Speaker 2>It's obviously conservative and it would probably stay that way.

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<v Speaker 2>But what he sees is a network that's desperately in

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<v Speaker 2>need of stronger journalistic guardrails. He wants the management there

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<v Speaker 2>to insist on real editorial standards that would define any

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<v Speaker 2>other news organization. He wants a cleaner, healthier internal culture.

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<v Speaker 2>He wants a company where the talent, the hosts aren't

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<v Speaker 2>just kind of allowed to say whatever they want on

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<v Speaker 2>the air, but rather, you know, are trying to be

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<v Speaker 2>responsible stewards of information and reporting. He believes that you

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<v Speaker 2>could still have a center right news network but one

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<v Speaker 2>that's just responsible and right now, that is not what

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<v Speaker 2>Fox News is. I will I should add though, that

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<v Speaker 2>I asked this question to Catherine, James's wife, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>very close. They discuss all these things. She actually said

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<v Speaker 2>to me at one point that she's not sure Fox

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<v Speaker 2>News can be reformed at this point. She said it

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<v Speaker 2>just doesn't have an obvious place in the ecosystem anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's obviously raised a lot of eyebrows since her

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<v Speaker 2>quote was published, because I think there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>questions about what would happen to this very powerful cable

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<v Speaker 2>news channel when Rupert dies if James has his way.

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<v Speaker 1>And ultimately Rupert and Lachlan they lost the case. James

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<v Speaker 1>and his sisters won.

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<v Speaker 3>The Nevada court, denying the billionaires bit to change a

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<v Speaker 3>family trust and give control to his eldest son. The

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<v Speaker 3>leaked court ruling stated that his attempt to change it

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<v Speaker 3>was in bad faith.

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<v Speaker 1>So where does that leave the future of the Murdoch

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<v Speaker 1>media empire right now hanging in the balance?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's kind of in a holding pattern. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Rupert is still alive. He has control of these companies

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<v Speaker 2>when he dies, barring a successful appeal, control would be

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<v Speaker 2>split four ways among James, Lachlan, Elizabeth and Prudence Murdoch.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, you can read Tea leaves. It certainly

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<v Speaker 2>seems that James and his two olderts have a very

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<v Speaker 2>different vision for these companies than Rupert and Laughlin do.

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<v Speaker 2>But we just don't know what will happen until Rupert

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<v Speaker 2>is gone.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about how this case has left the family

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<v Speaker 1>and the relationships between the siblings and their father.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean to me, that's kind of what makes

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<v Speaker 2>this a sad story. Obviously, this is a story with

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<v Speaker 2>global stakes and consequences. These companies News Corp And Fox

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<v Speaker 2>are incredibly politically influential in you know, Australia, in the UK,

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<v Speaker 2>in America. But it's also just, at some basic level,

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<v Speaker 2>a very human story about a family unraveling. And James

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<v Speaker 2>has spent a lot of his time his life, frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>studying dynastic dysfunction. He's read King Lear, he can quote

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<v Speaker 2>it from memory. He's you know, studied the classics. We

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<v Speaker 2>these esoteric facts about fratricidal Roman emperors into casual conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>and what he told me is that, you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>you look at all these families throughout history. It's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of the same patterns repeating over and over again. And

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<v Speaker 2>what he told me is the real tragedy is that

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<v Speaker 2>no one in my family seems to have taken those lessons.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if there's any coming back from this,

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<v Speaker 2>At least from James's point of view. He feels like

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<v Speaker 2>this final betrayal from his father seems to be a

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<v Speaker 2>bridge too far, So I would be surprised if he

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<v Speaker 2>and his father are able to mend their relationship. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, at least for now, there's still an active litigation.

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<v Speaker 2>Rupert and Lachlan are appealing the decision that could go

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<v Speaker 2>on for quite a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, thank you so much for your time. It's been fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>If you enjoyed this episode, you can check out Rupert

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<v Speaker 1>the Last Mogul, a podcast series from Schwartz Media where

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<v Speaker 1>investigative journalist Patty Manning examines what drove the media's most

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<v Speaker 1>dangerous man. Play with Rupert too. You're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>shopped anyway. Everybody gets chopped.

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<v Speaker 2>That was Rupert.

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<v Speaker 1>He had to win.

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<v Speaker 2>It showed how ruthless Rupert was.

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<v Speaker 1>Rupert Murdhark is totally responsible for Fox News and how

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<v Speaker 1>it's damaged the United States. You can find Rupert the

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<v Speaker 1>Last Mogul wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can

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<v Speaker 1>read McKay coppin's excellent reporting at the Atlantic dot Com.

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<v Speaker 1>His article is called Growing Up Murdoch. I'm Ruby Jones.

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<v Speaker 1>Is he tomorrow?