Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.
Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty
Speaker 1: five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. In
Speaker 1: part two of my chat with journalist Cheng Lai, who
Speaker 1: was imprisoned in China for three years for I suppose
Speaker 1: what could be best described as international espion arche, we
Speaker 1: talked about how she survived with humor, compassion and dignity,
Speaker 1: how she break the inhumane and bizarre rules impose on
Speaker 1: her with a bit of rat cunning. I also learn
Speaker 1: a lot about human nature from what I consider a
Speaker 1: very impressive woman. So welcome back part two.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I promise not to make you cry this time.
Speaker 2: I go up from us not to gray, Okay.
Speaker 1: I'll tiptoe. One of the things that I picked up
Speaker 1: on that help you survive, and it's a very human thing,
Speaker 1: and maybe it's a very Australian thing too. Giving the
Speaker 1: guards that were looking after your nicknames, some of which
Speaker 1: weren't flattering, what was the rationale behind that.
Speaker 2: Well, in that existence, you're not allowed to know anything.
Speaker 2: You can't ask for the time, You can't ask what
Speaker 2: their names are. And these are people who see you
Speaker 2: shit show and sleep. It's actually very intimate. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: got a relationship, but see them all the time, and
Speaker 2: and of course they're the only things or life forms
Speaker 2: that you can observe, so you start to try to
Speaker 2: work out what they're like, and that's how you identify
Speaker 2: them in your head by their nicknames. Any unflattering ones,
Speaker 2: well there was a very bad farta considering you know
Speaker 2: we're sharing what.
Speaker 1: Was called stick.
Speaker 2: One was called child soldier because she looks so tiny
Speaker 2: in this huge coat with the walkie talkie, and there
Speaker 2: was some of the nicer ones were wordsmith because she
Speaker 2: knew a lot of like when I would try to
Speaker 2: write letters to my family and if I'd forgotten Chinese words,
Speaker 2: she would tell me how to write it.
Speaker 1: So there was little doses of humanity.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean you couldn't. You couldn't have a conversation,
Speaker 2: but if it was just a very quick exchange.
Speaker 1: And you had cameras, it wasn't. When the doors shut them,
Speaker 1: you could talk that they knew they had cameras on
Speaker 1: them as well. Yes, and I would imagine the punishment
Speaker 1: would be fairly rigid on them if they break the rules.
Speaker 2: Definitely, you.
Speaker 1: With the detention that lasted six months.
Speaker 2: That was rsdl R. Next part is detention.
Speaker 1: Okay, to talk us through that, your next little adventure.
Speaker 2: So I knew that the six months were coming up,
Speaker 2: and I was looking forward to going somewhere else, and
Speaker 2: I had found out that I would have cell mates
Speaker 2: and that put me in good spirits. I was really
Speaker 2: anticipating some human company, not the type that's surveilling. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when I did get to the detention center, which
Speaker 2: is just down the say, down the road. It's all
Speaker 2: one interconnected facility. Then I had to go through two
Speaker 2: weeks of quarantine and that already was a step up
Speaker 2: because I didn't have the guards with me all the time.
Speaker 1: So quarantine, you're locked in, locked in the.
Speaker 2: Cell by myself. Look at luxury, luxury exactly enough grade. Yes,
Speaker 2: I could walk around instead of being limited to the
Speaker 2: ten minutes so called exercise times only a few times
Speaker 2: a day.
Speaker 1: Can I just and something that I should have mentioned.
Speaker 1: We talked about the psychological time that you were detained
Speaker 1: for the first six months. Were you allowed to exercise
Speaker 1: and what were the physical effects it had on you?
Speaker 2: Oh my body went haywire. Yeah, hair fell out, purchase
Speaker 2: of it for females. And I injured my back sitting
Speaker 2: sitting on my bomb. Yeah, just too much sitting. And
Speaker 2: the cell was cold. But then later they put in
Speaker 2: a heater and I couldn't move for more than a week.
Speaker 2: That's a lying in bed all the time. And cried
Speaker 2: buckets when I tried to turn around in bed.
Speaker 1: That painful.
Speaker 2: That painful. So the lots of insomnia and anxiety all understandable.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're now looking at cell mates.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so when I talk us through that that I
Speaker 3: could imagine that would be so exciting after what the
Speaker 3: deprivation that you've had someone that you might be able
Speaker 3: to have a communication of communications with.
Speaker 2: I used to compare RSDL to being buried alive, and
Speaker 2: that I was actually sitting in a coffin, but being
Speaker 2: with people again, especially people who were also suffering the
Speaker 2: same fate, that was almost like a warm bath, like
Speaker 2: coming in from the cold, because we could laugh, we
Speaker 2: could make fun of the terrible food together, we could
Speaker 2: share some things. Obviously, they warned us not to say
Speaker 2: anything about our cases to each other. We weren't known
Speaker 2: by our names, we were only known by numbers. But
Speaker 2: still these were comrades.
Speaker 1: As comrades, did you share your names? Did you you
Speaker 1: on the opportunities if it presented itself, did you tell
Speaker 1: a bit about your backstory?
Speaker 2: And of course that all depends on how much you
Speaker 2: trust each other and whether you think that person is decent.
Speaker 2: After a while, we did share some names, but one
Speaker 2: particular cell mate didn't tell me her name until I
Speaker 2: was moved out of the cell with her.
Speaker 1: Right so, how many cell mates did you have? And
Speaker 1: describe the cell and describe the day to day living, I.
Speaker 2: Suppose, so you're woken up by Beethoven's for a Lease
Speaker 2: piano music. I feel sorry for the composer to be
Speaker 2: used in such a horrible place.
Speaker 1: Things don't getting with that, yep.
Speaker 2: And so we all sleep on there's one long wooden
Speaker 2: bed together about thirty centimeters apart, so you try to
Speaker 2: not to intrude on the other person's bedspace as much
Speaker 2: as possible. But then you're with each other all the
Speaker 2: time and you share everything. The toilet doesn't have a door,
Speaker 2: and there's a shower cam that looks straight into it,
Speaker 2: so whether you're squatting over the toilet, whether you're having
Speaker 2: a shower which is only weekly, whether you're washing your stuff,
Speaker 2: they can still see. So five cameras in total in
Speaker 2: each corner and the shower or the bathroom.
Speaker 1: Do you become accustomed to that and just okay, well
Speaker 1: this is what it is. There is no privacy in.
Speaker 2: You do accept that on an intellectual level. But then
Speaker 2: when the buzzer sounds because there's an intercom and you
Speaker 2: know that they have been watching you doing something, and
Speaker 2: then they holler at you that stop doing that, or
Speaker 2: even something as innocuous as I remember Mother's Day twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, I had just gotten this book of songs
Speaker 2: Chinese songs, and one of them was about that a
Speaker 2: singer had written for his mum, and I thought, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: we'll learn this. And so the three of us are
Speaker 2: sitting on the beds the edge of the bed together
Speaker 2: and learning the song, and the buzzer says, stop huddling,
Speaker 2: and you just all of a sudden, you think, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I've done something wrong. And it's a terrible
Speaker 2: feeling because it just kills all the warmth. And you
Speaker 2: know that we were sharing at that moment.
Speaker 1: Would add to your paranoia or that must just play
Speaker 1: with your mind. I can't even comprehend it.
Speaker 2: So well, that's what they want that you wouldn't even
Speaker 2: dare that you would self censor about what you said
Speaker 2: and what you did. And also they encourage you to
Speaker 2: snitch on your cell mates.
Speaker 1: Were you the whole time spent in the cell, Like,
Speaker 1: did you have an exercise yard or you allowed out
Speaker 1: to exercise.
Speaker 2: I don't call it a yard because it's actually still
Speaker 2: an extension of the cell. It's still a concrete box
Speaker 2: and you can only see a little sliver of the
Speaker 2: sky from the windows. So the first time the doors
Speaker 2: out of the bell sounded for exercise, I was so excited.
Speaker 2: I waited at the door, thinking, you know this is yeah, yeah, exactly, sure,
Speaker 2: shank redemption, you know, ideas of the sky and the sun,
Speaker 2: and and then and also seeing other people. I didn't
Speaker 2: know how it would work. And then it opens and
Speaker 2: it's still this concrete box. I'm not sure how that's
Speaker 2: different to exercising in the cell.
Speaker 1: I saw the exercises were you're doing just to stay sane, and.
Speaker 2: So because there were four of us, each of us
Speaker 2: would take one corner and you only had about a
Speaker 2: meter of space really to do your exercises. And at
Speaker 2: the start I was fairly unfit because I had been
Speaker 2: sitting on my bum for six months. So I started
Speaker 2: to do push ups on the concrete ground, squats and
Speaker 2: leg raisers, and later when I got a book on yoga,
Speaker 2: some yoga posers. Because we had these cloth shoes, there's
Speaker 2: no shock absorption whatsoever, so any cardio was pretty hard
Speaker 2: on the joints. So I only did a little bit
Speaker 2: of that, but lots of stretches, lots of light jogging
Speaker 2: on the ground, and of course no bras, so we'll
Speaker 2: try to tie knots under our bust and so on.
Speaker 2: So it was very defeminizing.
Speaker 1: Again, it's just this ongoing thing. Where is your case
Speaker 1: in regards to the process through the legal system at
Speaker 1: this point in time.
Speaker 2: Well, I used to be really naive about how long
Speaker 2: it would take, and the prosecutor and the officers weren't
Speaker 2: going to enlighten me. But once in the cell, I
Speaker 2: discovered that state security cases take years. Years to get
Speaker 2: to prosecution, years to get to the trial, years to
Speaker 2: get a verdict. And the worst I've heard is eight
Speaker 2: years in the one cell right.
Speaker 1: In that detention. That's where you're hell, it's not heaven.
Speaker 2: Before being sent to prison, which I think is much
Speaker 2: worse because in prison you can have family or friend visits,
Speaker 2: you get to buy more stuff, you get to meet
Speaker 2: more people. Yes, you are forced into labor, but in
Speaker 2: some ways that can be positive too because you actually
Speaker 2: feel useful.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it sort of demonstrates how low they
Speaker 1: took you that you're looking at. If I could get
Speaker 1: to prison, that would be great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that would be I was looking forward to jail.
Speaker 1: WHOA, Okay, so you're called in this limbo. Did you
Speaker 1: form the friendships of the people that you're in in
Speaker 1: the cell with in the tension because you have been
Speaker 1: living on each other's nerves. I would imagine there'd be
Speaker 1: some highs and lawyers of living that close and with people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Highs
Speaker 2: and lows. You in one way, really rely on them
Speaker 2: because they're the only people who will comfort you, help you,
Speaker 2: even if it's something as small as when you buy
Speaker 2: something that you don't want, then you can swap with
Speaker 2: them for something else. But then, yes, like you said,
Speaker 2: there's no respite and we need space. I mean, even
Speaker 2: if you were there with your soulmate, with your wife, yeah,
Speaker 2: you would hate them after a while. And these are
Speaker 2: the people that you didn't choose to be with who
Speaker 2: personalities might not be what you look for in a friend.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so it's a constant push and Paul in
Speaker 2: the dynamics.
Speaker 1: You had one person in there that had the intellectual
Speaker 1: discussions that you could add with a but she was
Speaker 1: a horrible person. Yeah, yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 2: It does. If she was easier, she would have been
Speaker 2: much nicer to live with.
Speaker 1: And at some stage you will put one out and
Speaker 1: the cell with her, yes, and then you had to
Speaker 1: complain when it just got too much.
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't sleep at night. She was paranoid that
Speaker 2: I wasn't letting her sleep by making noise, so she
Speaker 2: would get up in the middle of the night and
Speaker 2: stand at my door, stand at my bed and ask me,
Speaker 2: did you pull up the sheets? Really loudly? I mean,
Speaker 2: how loud can.
Speaker 1: Pulling up the sheets be okay?
Speaker 2: When I was the one being kept awake by her snoring?
Speaker 2: But she was such a bully.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that makes that are uncomfortable. You were the
Speaker 1: lights on the whole time.
Speaker 2: The only time in three years and two months that
Speaker 2: I experienced darkness was a summer blackout, and I remember
Speaker 2: all of us were sitting in the darkness, enjoying the
Speaker 2: blackout because for once the lights were off and we
Speaker 2: couldn't be seen on the monitors.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine that. Other friendships you made in
Speaker 1: the in the prison.
Speaker 2: I'd say two of the best friends. One I nicknamed
Speaker 2: Canto because she's both Cantonese. Another one I nicknamed Hannah
Speaker 2: because she loved all things Japanese and Hannah means flower
Speaker 2: in Japanese and Canto was there from the day I
Speaker 2: arrived until the day I went, and we were friends
Speaker 2: because we liked to make fun of everything, and we
Speaker 2: both had a dirty sense of humor, and she was
Speaker 2: also quite daring, so in some of the naughtiest stuff,
Speaker 2: she would always be my sidekick, although I didn't let
Speaker 2: her get punished because I knew that being foreign citizen
Speaker 2: and also being a journalist, her story was being reported
Speaker 2: widely that I would I wouldn't be treated as harshly.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of those things you got up to,
Speaker 1: and these are real Shawshank redemption type stuff that brew
Speaker 1: and getting on the drink.
Speaker 2: We didn't, we didn't dig ourselves out of the place,
Speaker 2: but we did manage to celebrate Canto's birthday with some
Speaker 2: home group homebrew.
Speaker 1: And that was putting fruit bills and fermenting or.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was thanks to COVID that we were given
Speaker 2: some apples and we could buy sugar. So the first
Speaker 2: batch was all moldy, but I scraped it off and
Speaker 2: drank it anyway because it just smelled so beautiful. And
Speaker 2: then we made a second batch where Canto faked a
Speaker 2: stomach ache and said she wanted hot water so we
Speaker 2: could sort of sterilize the cup somewhat. And then later
Speaker 2: they were my cell mates because then I was I
Speaker 2: went upstairs for quarantine and they said the bubbles popping
Speaker 2: in the cup was sounded really dangerous, because just in
Speaker 2: case an officer came in for an inspection and heard,
Speaker 2: what's that noise?
Speaker 1: Alcohol? What was the go with the knocking? The very
Speaker 1: complicated system to communicate with prisoners in other cells, It.
Speaker 2: Just shows how desperate you become to communicate with other people.
Speaker 2: I mean, we only spoke to each other for the
Speaker 2: whole three years. Well, obviously I was lucky enough to
Speaker 2: have the embassy visits. But when the COVID wave hit
Speaker 2: and we couldn't exercise in the yard, they would open
Speaker 2: the door to the yard every morning for half an
Speaker 2: hour for so called fresh air. So I would stand
Speaker 2: near the yard and sing because it had good acoustics.
Speaker 2: And then one day I heard a male from next door,
Speaker 2: because we were the female cell bracketed by two male cells,
Speaker 2: and he said, love your singing and said our cell number.
Speaker 2: So I said thank you, and we're really happy. Just
Speaker 2: so you know how hard it is to actually be heard.
Speaker 2: The walls are so thick that we had never heard
Speaker 2: a clear sentence before. They make it so that you don't.
Speaker 2: You're never in the yard at the same time because
Speaker 2: the odd numbers odd numbered cells and the even numbered
Speaker 2: cells exercise at different times. But because of COVID, all
Speaker 2: the doors were open for all the cells in the
Speaker 2: morning to the exercise enclosure. That is, that was how
Speaker 2: we could hear each other, And so we started to
Speaker 2: illicitly have these conversations. And because the walls are so thick,
Speaker 2: you've got to say something like Gary to actually be heard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And sometimes there would be a wind and it would
Speaker 2: either help or hinder the conversation. So then we thought
Speaker 2: of a way to communicate inside, which was to knock
Speaker 2: on the walls via an alphabetical code.
Speaker 1: We played games and I was trying to understand the code,
Speaker 1: and that's two knocks for B, very knocks for C.
Speaker 1: Was something someone's coming about loud. But how did the
Speaker 1: other cell work out the system? Like, well, I suppose
Speaker 1: you've got a lot of time on your hands.
Speaker 2: So we had to devise the code while we were
Speaker 2: talking in the mornings. Okay, yeah, during the day explain
Speaker 2: the rules, and then during the day practice getting the codes.
Speaker 1: And what joy did that bring to you? Being able
Speaker 1: to communicate with other.
Speaker 2: People immense It was like a miracle to know people
Speaker 2: who live the same lives as we do and are
Speaker 2: just two meters away, but they may as well be
Speaker 2: on another planet. And that solidarity, the happiness of hearing
Speaker 2: like one night there was a full moon, which I
Speaker 2: could see like if I stood in a corner near
Speaker 2: the toilet, and so we typed on the wall the
Speaker 2: code for moon, and then we knew they were looking
Speaker 2: at the moon as well by then because they would
Speaker 2: respond with things like wine and romance, because the moon
Speaker 2: is a very romantic symbol in Chinese culture.
Speaker 1: Iose you talk solidarity, Yeah, it must. You would feel
Speaker 1: so isolated in the environment you've moon and it just
Speaker 1: almost makes you feel like you've got the connection with
Speaker 1: the outside world, even though their prisoners sitting in the
Speaker 1: same situation right beside you.
Speaker 2: Exactly. We often felt we were living underground and that
Speaker 2: we were forgotten by the world, and we didn't know
Speaker 2: anything about the world. I mean, yes, sure the TV
Speaker 2: was on at night, but the state news is is
Speaker 2: not exactly a portrayal of the real world. So anything
Speaker 2: that we could find out about other people what was happening,
Speaker 2: even if we sniffed garlic in the wind.
Speaker 1: It was the sensors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it made you feel like you were still alive
Speaker 2: and still in the world.
Speaker 1: Were you negotiation skills? You managed to watch the Olympics
Speaker 1: and the World Cup soccer, Yeah, and that must have
Speaker 1: been a big thing for you.
Speaker 2: Empowering. Yeah, and to know that journalistic skills can come
Speaker 2: in handy anyway. You know that whole pitching. I guess
Speaker 2: when you've worked in journalism as long as I had,
Speaker 2: which was close to twenty years, you've pitched for a
Speaker 2: lot of interviews and you've gotten a lot of rejection.
Speaker 2: So that really prepares you well to speak to people
Speaker 2: who are very likely to turn down your request.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but hit the right the right note, and yeah,
Speaker 1: they've got it. Singing was another big thing, like and
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's beautiful and you see what you're going
Speaker 1: through where someone's birthday, one of your cell mate's birthday,
Speaker 1: the songs prepared for them, and you sing a song
Speaker 1: and things like that or Christmas Day says little things
Speaker 1: that seemed to you hang on to and keep your sanity.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's how you make each day different because
Speaker 2: like Wednesday, we're going to learn a new song. And Friday,
Speaker 2: we're going to review the old songs. Like I said
Speaker 2: on Mother's Day, we tried to find one that was
Speaker 2: meaningful for the day. And talking about the lyrics, because
Speaker 2: I think as women in there, as mothers and girlfriends
Speaker 2: and daughters, you it's it's I mean, it's such a
Speaker 2: hard place, devoid of touches of femininity, no color, no beauty,
Speaker 2: nothing soft and and that can be released through music.
Speaker 2: A lot of Daggy eighty songs.
Speaker 1: You had to remember the lyrics and did you have
Speaker 1: to make up lyrics?
Speaker 2: Okay, some of them I remembered, well some of them
Speaker 2: I tried to guess. And now that I know what
Speaker 2: the lyrics are, I have to apologize to my cell worts.
Speaker 2: But later, when Nick was allowed to write to me,
Speaker 2: my former partner, he would send me print outs of
Speaker 2: the lyrics and thankfully they were allowed to come in
Speaker 2: via the sensors. But I only had a few hours
Speaker 2: to read them. And then because all the letters get
Speaker 2: taken out of the cell and if I didn't remember it,
Speaker 2: then what would I teach myself.
Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel sorry for your cell mates. Now
Speaker 1: you just made up these lyrics.
Speaker 2: Only some little SNA but like, you know, if I
Speaker 2: knew three verses, but then I was a bit sketchy
Speaker 2: on the third verse then a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about books? That was a salvation for your
Speaker 1: books coming into the prison.
Speaker 2: Yes, because in RSDL it was like to ease pain,
Speaker 2: and they were my friends. But then in detention where
Speaker 2: I had cell mates but we ran out of things
Speaker 2: to talk about, they were conversation starters, and they were
Speaker 2: ways in which we could learn together and grow together
Speaker 2: and discuss because we figured out that if we didn't
Speaker 2: lift ourselves, we would think our brains would atrophy, our
Speaker 2: moods would always be dark, and when we went out,
Speaker 2: whether it's to jail or to see our family, what
Speaker 2: would they see. We didn't want that. So it was
Speaker 2: you know, exercise would strengthen our bodies, and then we
Speaker 2: would keep our minds active with whether it's absorbing you
Speaker 2: knowledge or debating some something in a book, or looking
Speaker 2: at the world in a different way.
Speaker 1: Keeping your mind active. Yeah, Okay, like your book, Well,
Speaker 1: now that you bought that up a shame I don't
Speaker 1: have a copy. You did mention that you read Eye
Speaker 1: Catch Killers in the detention center.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Very much, very good. I don't want to put you
Speaker 1: on the spot, but you've probably read one hundred or
Speaker 1: so books there, three hundred three hundred? Is it in
Speaker 1: the top ten? You can lie to me here.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do a top ten. I would
Speaker 2: say there were books in there that moved me to
Speaker 2: my surprise, or moved me or helped me that I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have thought they would. Things like poetry, like philosophy,
Speaker 2: history and science, because they all give you different perspectives
Speaker 2: on suffering. Like science doesn't care to science, happiness is
Speaker 2: just a chemical reaction, and we can do that. We
Speaker 2: can engineer it in our bodies like exercise or taking
Speaker 2: taking things. But I guess that means you don't feel
Speaker 2: sorry for yourself. You don't think of yourself.
Speaker 1: Okays, a way of stepping away in exactly situation.
Speaker 2: And the universe, like to the universe, what are we,
Speaker 2: We're nothing?
Speaker 1: Keeping keeping your more indactive. Yeah, and poetry. You had
Speaker 1: a few books on poetry that was helping that that
Speaker 1: brings in something that seemed to really resonate with you
Speaker 1: when you're in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we didn't see anything beautiful or hear or
Speaker 2: touch anything beautiful. Having the beautiful imagery means that our
Speaker 2: minds weren't always on dark things like handcuffs and blindfolds
Speaker 2: and being wheelchaired around and being called only by a number.
Speaker 2: We could visualize, you know, the gold hush of noon
Speaker 2: in the book in the poem My Country by Dorothy
Speaker 2: and mckella, and I love Alison Kraggen's She's an Australian
Speaker 2: poet who wrote about the Elwood Organic Fruit and Vegetable
Speaker 2: Shop because I love fresh produce, and that took all
Speaker 2: the descriptions. Yeah, yeah, And there's a bit about damp
Speaker 2: warm orchids, damp woman damp like literal kisses, which I
Speaker 2: had to explain to Canto.
Speaker 1: I wasn't lost in the translation.
Speaker 2: It was English. I was able to get English books.
Speaker 2: She loved that.
Speaker 1: It seems like you you were the leader of the
Speaker 1: ship in there, like the captain.
Speaker 2: I was nicknamed teacher.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was the head troublemaker, and to the extent that
Speaker 2: I bought these male underpants for to sleep in. And
Speaker 2: then when it was because every month there was a raid,
Speaker 2: and when an officer saw these male underpants, she thought
Speaker 2: I had somehow smuggled it in from another cell.
Speaker 1: Is this person under the bed?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I just think going through that having no sense, like,
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's easier to apply yourself if you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: i've got to do five years, I've got to do
Speaker 1: two years, and I've got one year down. I've got
Speaker 1: four years to get whatever. But you were left in
Speaker 1: limbo for a long time, weren't you. You had no
Speaker 1: idea of how long are you going to be there for?
Speaker 2: Well, I signed a leniency agreement yep, by admitting guilt
Speaker 2: and accepting punished that. Uh, because I signed it, the
Speaker 2: prosecutor would recommend a five year sentence. And there's a
Speaker 2: party in the book about bargaining over my sentence, which
Speaker 2: is very dark but slightly funny too. And so I
Speaker 2: started counting down five years, which would be November of
Speaker 2: this year, right, And I just kept thinking, when I
Speaker 2: come out, the kids won't be kids anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.
Speaker 2: You know, I used to think it was twenty years
Speaker 2: or I would never get out. So yeah, expectations, they
Speaker 2: are a funny thing. And so I was always working
Speaker 2: to that date. But then there was also the possibility
Speaker 2: that the judge would sentence me to something longer. I mean,
Speaker 2: they hold all the power, and defense lawyers can do
Speaker 2: very very very little, if anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, dealings with the embassy, How did you find that?
Speaker 2: Oh, they were so caring. I still keep in touch
Speaker 2: with Tony, the consul officer who came almost thirty times
Speaker 2: to visit me and one Chinese New Year because it
Speaker 2: was the Year of the Rabbit and I was born
Speaker 2: in the Year of the Rabbit. He wore bugs bunny
Speaker 2: socks to cheer me up. And it wasn't an in
Speaker 2: person visit. It was still by video link, so he
Speaker 2: had to lift up his foot and it was on
Speaker 2: a wonky angle so I could only see a little bit.
Speaker 1: The thought that make a difference.
Speaker 2: And actually, at one of the last visits, I wrote
Speaker 2: a little poem, very sentimental poem about the about them
Speaker 2: being the the fuzzy wuzzies of defat because they're the
Speaker 2: only people to make you feel.
Speaker 1: Like people are care. Yeah, did you realize? And I
Speaker 1: know there's always debate on whether to go public on
Speaker 1: situations like this or whether it's better to handle it
Speaker 1: behind closed doors negotiations for a release of someone like yourself,
Speaker 1: what was your inclination? Did you want to shout it
Speaker 1: from the rooftops, look where I am, rather than people
Speaker 1: have found themselves in a similar position to you. Yourself
Speaker 1: told look, we don't want to blow this up. It's
Speaker 1: easier to negotay that without it be becoming public. What
Speaker 1: was your thoughts when you're in.
Speaker 2: There, Well, I thought it was better to have publicity,
Speaker 2: to have people know what I was going through. But
Speaker 2: my family, especially my dad, who has suffered at the
Speaker 2: hands of the Communist Party before he came to Australia,
Speaker 2: believed that it was better to keep quiet because China
Speaker 2: loves its face. But I still I'm still inclined towards
Speaker 2: the media telling the story. And there are examples of
Speaker 2: my treatment or getting better treatment because I did complain
Speaker 2: about the food, about going hungry, and things did improve.
Speaker 2: And to the when there was something that they did
Speaker 2: that was that was okay, like when they allowed us
Speaker 2: to watch the World Cup whatever, I would say that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I thinkness and transparency.
Speaker 1: I think transparency is important. Each case probably judge on
Speaker 1: its own merits, but I would imagine if I was
Speaker 1: in a situation that you found yourself in, I'd want
Speaker 1: it to be out there publicly. Because otherwise you think, well,
Speaker 1: does anyone know, does anyone care?
Speaker 2: That's right?
Speaker 1: So I can imagine that would help you dealing with
Speaker 1: your situation, knowing that they're people you're not forgotten, because
Speaker 1: you would feel forgotten in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like how you maintain your sanity in that situation, Like, well,
Speaker 1: you've talked about the books and the communication, the fun
Speaker 1: thing things you do. But full credit to you for
Speaker 1: hanging in there, because I can just imagine just just
Speaker 1: both give up or you just have a sulk and
Speaker 1: life ship.
Speaker 2: No, I think. I think if you were in detention,
Speaker 2: you would do a lot of exercise and that creates
Speaker 2: the endorphins to not let your mind go, keep you going. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and helping people, and again that's Ozzie made ship, standing
Speaker 2: up for your mates.
Speaker 1: Well, I think, and one of your cell mats in
Speaker 1: the books you are very timid, timid young lady and introvert.
Speaker 1: But you guys took a lot of comfort in trying
Speaker 1: to help her through her times.
Speaker 2: Exactly when she did something that was out of a character,
Speaker 2: like actually perform a little comedy skit for me on
Speaker 2: my birthday, when she ate a bit more, when she
Speaker 2: enjoyed the cake. The cake. It was so gratifying, and
Speaker 2: that probably helps you more than being helped yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, little things. When did you find out you were
Speaker 1: going to escape this night mare?
Speaker 2: September twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Okay, first day of
Speaker 2: my life?
Speaker 1: How did I'm about?
Speaker 2: So it was Dave of my sentencing, something I had
Speaker 2: been waiting for. So I remember, this is a year
Speaker 2: and a half after my show trial, which went for
Speaker 2: ninety minutes, and I just wanted it to be over.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to get to a different place, and
Speaker 2: especially to have family visits. So the same deal mine folded,
Speaker 2: feet shackled, handcuffed, and then off to the court, sitting
Speaker 2: in this little cage. And then the judge comes over
Speaker 2: and he's smiling at me. And in all that time
Speaker 2: I'd seen him plenty of times before because he had
Speaker 2: to preside over every embassy visit, I'd never seen him smile.
Speaker 2: And he said, what do you think you're going to
Speaker 2: be sentenced to?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I said I had a bad dream that it
Speaker 2: was eight years. Then he said, I think you will
Speaker 2: be satisfied with the sentence.
Speaker 1: What the fuck?
Speaker 2: So that goes the serenity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but did you, like until you actually walked out
Speaker 1: or till you're on the plane, did you have this
Speaker 1: little bit of a hole back going Oh, how could
Speaker 1: they might be playing with me?
Speaker 2: I was the champion at dampeney expectations because I would
Speaker 2: rather think the worst and then be pleasantly always.
Speaker 1: Okay and you okay, you've got the finish line. You're
Speaker 1: seeing the finish line. What was going through your mind
Speaker 1: about getting back and seeing your kids or your family
Speaker 1: and then people close to you.
Speaker 2: Well, I still had to jump through a few hoops. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And the officers always made it sound like there's still
Speaker 2: a chance that you were past that you won't be free.
Speaker 2: So I was very nervous about Like, can you imagine
Speaker 2: if you think you're going to be freed and then
Speaker 2: finally that's taken away from you, that devastated.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine, honestly can't imagine.
Speaker 2: So very tense couple of weeks between the sentencing and
Speaker 2: actually going free.
Speaker 1: Did you let your cell mates know? Did you go
Speaker 1: back to your yourself?
Speaker 3: You?
Speaker 2: I couldn't. That was the cruelest thing. I was put
Speaker 2: into a different cell on the morning of the sentencing,
Speaker 2: and I still remember telling them be good, remember the
Speaker 2: song lyrics I'm going to quiz you when I come back.
Speaker 2: And I didn't. Yeah, and I And it was before
Speaker 2: they had gotten up, so before waking time. And if
Speaker 2: I'd known, I would have given them everything because I
Speaker 2: had this sort of single it that's the most coveted items,
Speaker 2: luxury items. Yeah, yeah, and I know how much any
Speaker 2: of my things would have made a difference to them.
Speaker 2: And also, but I guess what the officers say does
Speaker 2: make sense in that it would be very cruel to
Speaker 2: tell them that I was going free while they still
Speaker 2: had long sentences ahead of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can imagine that they'd be happy for you, but
Speaker 1: then reflect on their situation. Yeah, that's probably one of
Speaker 1: the conditions that makes sense in what they talk about.
Speaker 2: You are also afraid of messages being sent out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's true. They seem to be afraid of everything.
Speaker 2: They are, and they still are. I think what I say,
Speaker 2: what I do, I think still creates.
Speaker 1: You will not to come on my Catch Killers podcast
Speaker 1: because I don't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 2: So it might be bad for life going to China.
Speaker 1: I can't get that I did I've been to China
Speaker 1: a few times. I quite like it. That's beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: your physical I laughed because I went not laughing at you,
Speaker 1: laughing with you. You hadn't seen yourself in the mirror
Speaker 1: for a long time. You saw yourself, So I'm trying
Speaker 1: to tell what did you see and what did Were
Speaker 1: you surprised by how you changed over the time that
Speaker 1: you spent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the only way that to look at ourselves,
Speaker 2: to see ourselves was like there's a bit of the
Speaker 2: shower head of chrome chrome, or there's a little bit
Speaker 2: of acrylic glass near the door that we used to
Speaker 2: nickname the mirror, but that doesn't show you look like
Speaker 2: that's that's like a shadow of what you look like.
Speaker 2: And then in the court mirror, I just saw this
Speaker 2: much older and like very pallid, a ghost of who
Speaker 2: I used to be, which was kick ass, like always.
Speaker 1: Up and ready to gap. It must come as a
Speaker 1: shock you don't realize that the toll has taken on you.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and actually looking at yourself in the mirror,
Speaker 1: and that.
Speaker 2: Day for the court, I had already been dressed in
Speaker 2: like my the best clothes I'd born in years. You
Speaker 2: thought you're right, exactly, that's right. And I looked ship
Speaker 2: and this haircut by this woman who didn't have her
Speaker 2: glasses on, and I was kneeling on the on the
Speaker 2: bed while she did it.
Speaker 1: And you trip home, you're on the plane, you come home.
Speaker 1: Tell us about that, because I can't imagine the feeling
Speaker 1: that you would have getting on the plane and ready
Speaker 1: to fly out of the fly out of the country
Speaker 1: and get back to see your children.
Speaker 2: Something like heart about to burst and wanting to scream
Speaker 2: and laugh and jump up. Because I couldn't on the plane,
Speaker 2: I tried to buy a red lipstick on duty free,
Speaker 2: and then the stewardess asked me, because I only had
Speaker 2: the leftover cash from my prison account, she said, do
Speaker 2: you have a card? And then all of a sudden
Speaker 2: I felt really shy.
Speaker 1: You've been out of circulation.
Speaker 2: I couldn't explain why I didn't have a card. Then
Speaker 2: I was just babbling for hours to poor Ambassador Graham Fletcher.
Speaker 1: He flew back with you, Yes he did.
Speaker 2: And I was nervous, anticipating it all, uncertain what I
Speaker 2: would see. I mean, I hadn't seen the kids for
Speaker 2: so long. I saw some photos, but that's so different. Too.
Speaker 1: What age are we talking the kids went from the
Speaker 1: time you last saw them to the time you're about
Speaker 1: to see them. What how old were they?
Speaker 2: Well, I were eight and ten and then looking at it,
Speaker 2: they were twelve and fourteen. Big difference, Yeah, huge difference.
Speaker 2: Like I used to hold them like mother hen under
Speaker 2: my arms, and now they were well, my daughter was
Speaker 2: already taller and my son was catching up to me.
Speaker 2: And she had like my daughter had to become independent
Speaker 2: going to boarding school, and my mum had aged a
Speaker 2: lot in that time.
Speaker 1: She was looking after your son.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well and aba when she came back on weekends
Speaker 2: and hold days.
Speaker 1: So which airport did you land at? And felt there
Speaker 1: was there a run up in a big cuddle and cry.
Speaker 2: And they were in a in a room. And I
Speaker 2: remember walking along the corridor of international arrivals and just
Speaker 2: I was floating, but I also felt a bit nervous
Speaker 2: because of how I looked and how I was, and
Speaker 2: but it also felt like I was finally home. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What impact do you think this has had on your kids?
Speaker 1: Having their mother away in circumstances like this for so long?
Speaker 2: I think my son in some ways, I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to get him out of it. In some ways
Speaker 2: is still the eight year old who doesn't know if
Speaker 2: mom will ever come back, especially last year. He's a
Speaker 2: little bit older this year. Last year he used to say,
Speaker 2: promised me, like if I went on a business trip,
Speaker 2: promised me, you'll come back. And my daughter is some
Speaker 2: I guess you would say, far too independent because she's
Speaker 2: had to do everything herself and credit to that. And
Speaker 2: both kids have a very warped sense of humor, which
Speaker 2: I think helped help them get through.
Speaker 1: Well, you've been parted something unfortunately, look at this was
Speaker 1: that only tricking And I've been away for four years
Speaker 1: in prison. But how has it changed you as a person?
Speaker 2: Oh, in many ways. First of all the appreciation of
Speaker 2: freedom and life and just knowing that at any moment
Speaker 2: it can all go from you. So if you're not
Speaker 2: taking everything you can at life's buffet, you are wasting it.
Speaker 2: And that was my message at the Ted talk as well.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting message to take, and that very understandable,
Speaker 1: isn't it, because life can just be turned upside down,
Speaker 1: not just the way your life is, but anyone's life
Speaker 1: could be turned upside down in a moment's notice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so don't be complacent, don't be lazy. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: the things that you'll regret are risks. You didn't take love,
Speaker 2: you didn't show, places you didn't explore, So do all that.
Speaker 2: Don't wait.
Speaker 1: It's a good, good message.
Speaker 2: And the SATs and the money stuff, don't worry so
Speaker 2: much about that.
Speaker 1: Well, it didn't help you out much dinner exactly, sitting
Speaker 1: over in your detention center with my little box of
Speaker 1: but you did, and yes, single it. You were so lucky.
Speaker 1: What are you doing since you've you've got back out,
Speaker 1: other than rekindling your relationship with your kids that I'm
Speaker 1: sure are annoying you by now as well as well
Speaker 1: as much as you miss them.
Speaker 2: Can I go back to detention again? Exactly?
Speaker 1: So did it turn your way from working as a journalist? Experience?
Speaker 2: Once I got over the Stockholm syndrome and saw how
Speaker 2: much journalists other journalists had helped me, I had rediscovered
Speaker 2: passion for it, my passion for it, and I was
Speaker 2: very lucky that the Sky News offered me a position,
Speaker 2: and that to this day when I do get leads
Speaker 2: on arbitrary and wrongful detention stories or other stories of injustice,
Speaker 2: that I can actually write about it and tried to
Speaker 2: make a difference. That's very healing. But then in some
Speaker 2: ways I'm being kept from doing what I'm good at doing,
Speaker 2: which is reborn on China, especially after what happened with
Speaker 2: Premier Li Chung's visit to Canberra last year, because the
Speaker 2: diplomats tried to block me, and then all.
Speaker 1: The Chinese diplomas yes, yep.
Speaker 2: And then all the story is around that gave some
Speaker 2: people more of an impression that I was now radioactive
Speaker 2: and talking to me was was dangerous. So I get
Speaker 2: I get shadow canceled.
Speaker 1: That hurts. There was an extract in your book that
Speaker 1: you said, and I see that it still carries carries
Speaker 1: with you, like your reputation is important and what you
Speaker 1: stand for and the stigma of what you've been through.
Speaker 1: Lives were being spread on the Chinese internet, commentary branding
Speaker 1: mes China Hating West loving spy. Yeah, I carry my
Speaker 1: leper status with complex feelings. Whilst it's an honor to
Speaker 1: be revived by a regime that invents an alternative reality
Speaker 1: because it cannot look after itself squarely, it is sad
Speaker 1: and frustrating to be feared where there is no cause.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are they afraid of? Yeah, well, I'm just
Speaker 2: trying to do my job.
Speaker 1: I pulled that out because I was reading AK. It's
Speaker 1: a nice situation. You're out, you're back, reunited with your family,
Speaker 1: you're back working, but you're still carrying something, aren't you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like last week I discovered that China's top police
Speaker 2: university made a video basically warning people about spies and
Speaker 2: probably recruiting students as well, and using pictures of me
Speaker 2: and of the Canadian hostage diplomacy victims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that must hurt.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it hurts, and it's also ridiculous. But I'm
Speaker 2: trying to turn the hurt into motivation and into calls
Speaker 2: for more openness.
Speaker 1: Well, you one of the things, and you probably won't
Speaker 1: raise it, but I'll raise it that the You've got
Speaker 1: an award Australian Journalist Award the Australian Press Counsel, and
Speaker 1: the award was in two thousand and twenty four, twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, and basically it was for your honored for
Speaker 1: your resilience and courage. So that's a substantial award. And
Speaker 1: I think they resilience and courage, they're pretty good characteristics
Speaker 1: to be identified by your peers.
Speaker 2: I'm very honored and feel undeserving, But I guess I'll
Speaker 2: use the ward to do more, to speak up more.
Speaker 2: And with this book and the documentary, it is telling
Speaker 2: some uncomfortable well for the Chinese government, and there's so
Speaker 2: much fear. It's insidious. It's in our universities, it's in
Speaker 2: our government officials, it's in every probably every overseas Chinese person,
Speaker 2: and it makes people self censor and affects how they
Speaker 2: carry themselves and even make friends. It's terrible. And if
Speaker 2: we do do that, if we are bound by those fears,
Speaker 2: then we're not free. Yeah, then what's the point of
Speaker 2: living in Australia. You may as well be in China.
Speaker 1: Well, I think, yeah, there's a strong possibility you'll have
Speaker 1: an important, important role in the future with what your experiences,
Speaker 1: your qualifications and your life experiences as well, that it
Speaker 1: is a time for someone like yourself to be speaking
Speaker 1: out and putting transparency on what's going on.
Speaker 2: I hope so. But I also want people to think
Speaker 2: and understand more than they judge. Sometimes I'm disappointed when
Speaker 2: I read very simplistic commentary, very absolutist statements. Stop trading
Speaker 2: with China, or why do people go to China like,
Speaker 2: like you said, you found China to be fantastic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and how do we accept that the beauty or the
Speaker 2: ingenuity of the some of the technology, but then also
Speaker 2: be able to look at what's wrong with it and
Speaker 2: call a spade a spade.
Speaker 1: M Well, hopefully that can that can occur. Just don't
Speaker 1: get yourself in the trouble. Speaking of the time in there,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that, do you, supported you
Speaker 1: and carried you. And these are not I'm not talking
Speaker 1: your cell mates or the people that you met at
Speaker 1: the embassy, but these are people back home that were
Speaker 1: champion your cause. And do you want to give a
Speaker 1: shout out to those people and what they meant to you?
Speaker 1: What was going on?
Speaker 2: I mean, some of the things I knew about, but
Speaker 2: the whole of it I only found out after I
Speaker 2: came out, and the first few months I went around
Speaker 2: thanking them. Whether it's Anlese. Nielsen who's now based in Washington, DC,
Speaker 2: who led the public letter writing campaign, her sister Mary
Speaker 2: Macklin from wa who heard about my complete stranger and
Speaker 2: somehow was able to get her short but very uplifting
Speaker 2: notes through to me. I mean to know that strangers
Speaker 2: are praying for you. Let's just yeah, so heartwarming, and
Speaker 2: I did go go meet her. Some of the writers
Speaker 2: I've already spoken about, and the people you've had on
Speaker 2: the show, Peter crist Or, Sean Turnell, and Kylie Moore Gilbert,
Speaker 2: Kylie and Peter both wrote to me. Yeah, former Prime
Speaker 2: Minister John Howard, who wrote this fantastic, pitch perfect letter
Speaker 2: to a senior Chinese leader, and of course the defat
Speaker 2: officers who came to visit me. Would you believe that
Speaker 2: on the day of my freedom flight, Tony from the
Speaker 2: embassy still wore colorful.
Speaker 1: Socks like maybe he just likes color.
Speaker 2: He said he was watching me like it sounded like
Speaker 2: a spy novel, the whole you know, waiting around the
Speaker 2: tarmac watching me get on.
Speaker 1: I knew it.
Speaker 2: And my my number in detention was actually double O
Speaker 2: three as opposed to double seventh.
Speaker 1: You could never get to double seven double three. That
Speaker 1: seems pretty cool, double three okay, that's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: And all my peers in the media who kept my
Speaker 2: story from going cold, and all as saying they believed
Speaker 2: in me and that I should be freed. And of
Speaker 2: course my former partner, Nick Coyle, who did so much too,
Speaker 2: tell journalists what was happening, to speak to diplomats, and
Speaker 2: to write all these wonderful love letters to me that
Speaker 2: my cell mates couldn't believe, because the common thing in
Speaker 2: China is once you've been inside, you're tainted, right, and
Speaker 2: people should abandon you.
Speaker 1: It's the next communication helped you, helped you get through.
Speaker 2: It so much. And even seeing those awful comments online,
Speaker 2: Nick made a joke. He said, what you should do
Speaker 2: is a semi nude spread buried in mounds of cash,
Speaker 2: surrounded by oiled out Brazilian toy voice. If they say
Speaker 2: I'm spy and you know, yeah, well fling it in
Speaker 2: your face, full spy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look that that type of humor that comes
Speaker 1: through in your book, and I really enjoyed, enjoyed reading
Speaker 1: the book. It's thank you got the sense of who
Speaker 1: you were and the strength of character, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's the award that you've got for your courage and
Speaker 1: your resilience that certainly came through in the book. But
Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were going to be so funny.
Speaker 1: I'm going to add humor to it. But and the
Speaker 1: other thing is it's great when journalism gets a lot
Speaker 1: of criticism. Doesn't and it gets a lot of criticism,
Speaker 1: but it's so important and it can Making sure that
Speaker 1: people tell stories like they supported you is something that
Speaker 1: we need to stand strong on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we have to become good journalism consumers
Speaker 2: and we can all be citizen journalists. So it's all
Speaker 2: about integrity and whatever we do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're very good at what you've done. Because
Speaker 1: I haven't cracked you. I was going to get this
Speaker 1: was going to be the big scoop for Catch Killer.
Speaker 1: See I told you she was a spot. You beat me.
Speaker 2: I have to go back to see me behind the wheel.
Speaker 1: Your kids have sent me the video of your trying
Speaker 1: to reverse part. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the chat. And yeah, good luck in
Speaker 1: the future. And quite impressive what you've been through and
Speaker 1: still come out with a smile on your face.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Gary. She's