WEBVTT - Escaping jail hell: Cheng Lei Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.840 Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her. 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.040 I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.760 five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.280 I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.040 I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.919 the public into the world in which I operated. The 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.560 guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.280 all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.760 just like the people I talk to. Some of the 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.959 content and language might be confronting. That's because no one 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.360 who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:45.960 me now as I take you into this world. In 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.720 part two of my chat with journalist Cheng Lai, who 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.199 was imprisoned in China for three years for I suppose 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.840 what could be best described as international espion arche, we 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.560 talked about how she survived with humor, compassion and dignity, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.080 how she break the inhumane and bizarre rules impose on 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.400 her with a bit of rat cunning. I also learn 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.200 a lot about human nature from what I consider a 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:14.240 very impressive woman. So welcome back part two. 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:15.080 Thank you. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.000 I promise not to make you cry this time. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:19.560 I go up from us not to gray, Okay. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:25.160 I'll tiptoe. One of the things that I picked up 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.240 on that help you survive, and it's a very human thing, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.440 and maybe it's a very Australian thing too. Giving the 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:33.960 guards that were looking after your nicknames, some of which 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.679 weren't flattering, what was the rationale behind that. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.640 Well, in that existence, you're not allowed to know anything. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.560 You can't ask for the time, You can't ask what 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:52.520 their names are. And these are people who see you 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:58.240 shit show and sleep. It's actually very intimate. I wouldn't 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.000 got a relationship, but see them all the time, and 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:08.280 and of course they're the only things or life forms 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.360 that you can observe, so you start to try to 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:17.960 work out what they're like, and that's how you identify 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.840 them in your head by their nicknames. Any unflattering ones, 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:30.800 well there was a very bad farta considering you know 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.480 we're sharing what. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.080 Was called stick. 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.680 One was called child soldier because she looks so tiny 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:46.440 in this huge coat with the walkie talkie, and there 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:52.960 was some of the nicer ones were wordsmith because she 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.160 knew a lot of like when I would try to 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.120 write letters to my family and if I'd forgotten Chinese words, 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:00.720 she would tell me how to write it. 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.520 So there was little doses of humanity. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.320 Yes, I mean you couldn't. You couldn't have a conversation, 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.560 but if it was just a very quick exchange. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.000 And you had cameras, it wasn't. When the doors shut them, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.000 you could talk that they knew they had cameras on 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.840 them as well. Yes, and I would imagine the punishment 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.840 would be fairly rigid on them if they break the rules. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.600 Definitely, you. 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.600 With the detention that lasted six months. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.480 That was rsdl R. Next part is detention. 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.240 Okay, to talk us through that, your next little adventure. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.280 So I knew that the six months were coming up, 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.120 and I was looking forward to going somewhere else, and 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.400 I had found out that I would have cell mates 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.480 and that put me in good spirits. I was really 0:03:51.960 --> 0:04:01.120 anticipating some human company, not the type that's surveilling. Yeah. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.320 So when I did get to the detention center, which 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.720 is just down the say, down the road. It's all 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:14.840 one interconnected facility. Then I had to go through two 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:19.200 weeks of quarantine and that already was a step up 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.359 because I didn't have the guards with me all the time. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.800 So quarantine, you're locked in, locked in the. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:31.320 Cell by myself. Look at luxury, luxury exactly enough grade. Yes, 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:36.000 I could walk around instead of being limited to the 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.120 ten minutes so called exercise times only a few times 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:39.479 a day. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.440 Can I just and something that I should have mentioned. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.279 We talked about the psychological time that you were detained 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.040 for the first six months. Were you allowed to exercise 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.200 and what were the physical effects it had on you? 0:04:54.120 --> 0:05:00.880 Oh my body went haywire. Yeah, hair fell out, purchase 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:12.560 of it for females. And I injured my back sitting 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:17.080 sitting on my bomb. Yeah, just too much sitting. And 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.960 the cell was cold. But then later they put in 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.840 a heater and I couldn't move for more than a week. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.359 That's a lying in bed all the time. And cried 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.080 buckets when I tried to turn around in bed. 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:34.000 That painful. 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:48.279 That painful. So the lots of insomnia and anxiety all understandable. 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:53.159 Okay, so you're now looking at cell mates. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.520 Yeah, so when I talk us through that that I 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.200 could imagine that would be so exciting after what the 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.880 deprivation that you've had someone that you might be able 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.200 to have a communication of communications with. 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.360 I used to compare RSDL to being buried alive, and 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.719 that I was actually sitting in a coffin, but being 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.400 with people again, especially people who were also suffering the 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:25.039 same fate, that was almost like a warm bath, like 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.400 coming in from the cold, because we could laugh, we 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:33.200 could make fun of the terrible food together, we could 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:39.800 share some things. Obviously, they warned us not to say 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.200 anything about our cases to each other. We weren't known 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.200 by our names, we were only known by numbers. But 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.880 still these were comrades. 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.279 As comrades, did you share your names? Did you you 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.560 on the opportunities if it presented itself, did you tell 0:06:58.720 --> 0:06:59.960 a bit about your backstory? 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.039 And of course that all depends on how much you 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.040 trust each other and whether you think that person is decent. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:13.360 After a while, we did share some names, but one 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.800 particular cell mate didn't tell me her name until I 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.280 was moved out of the cell with her. 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.800 Right so, how many cell mates did you have? And 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:27.160 describe the cell and describe the day to day living, I. 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:32.000 Suppose, so you're woken up by Beethoven's for a Lease 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.560 piano music. I feel sorry for the composer to be 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.320 used in such a horrible place. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.840 Things don't getting with that, yep. 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.080 And so we all sleep on there's one long wooden 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.840 bed together about thirty centimeters apart, so you try to 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.480 not to intrude on the other person's bedspace as much 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.840 as possible. But then you're with each other all the 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:05.080 time and you share everything. The toilet doesn't have a door, 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.600 and there's a shower cam that looks straight into it, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.400 so whether you're squatting over the toilet, whether you're having 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.800 a shower which is only weekly, whether you're washing your stuff, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.440 they can still see. So five cameras in total in 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.200 each corner and the shower or the bathroom. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.040 Do you become accustomed to that and just okay, well 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.880 this is what it is. There is no privacy in. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.240 You do accept that on an intellectual level. But then 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.640 when the buzzer sounds because there's an intercom and you 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.120 know that they have been watching you doing something, and 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.760 then they holler at you that stop doing that, or 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:50.000 even something as innocuous as I remember Mother's Day twenty 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.360 twenty three, I had just gotten this book of songs 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.400 Chinese songs, and one of them was about that a 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.240 singer had written for his mum, and I thought, oh, okay, 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.120 we'll learn this. And so the three of us are 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.240 sitting on the beds the edge of the bed together 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.760 and learning the song, and the buzzer says, stop huddling, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.160 and you just all of a sudden, you think, oh 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.880 my god, I've done something wrong. And it's a terrible 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.040 feeling because it just kills all the warmth. And you 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.360 know that we were sharing at that moment. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.760 Would add to your paranoia or that must just play 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.560 with your mind. I can't even comprehend it. 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.640 So well, that's what they want that you wouldn't even 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.000 dare that you would self censor about what you said 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.160 and what you did. And also they encourage you to 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:39.640 snitch on your cell mates. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.880 Were you the whole time spent in the cell, Like, 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.920 did you have an exercise yard or you allowed out 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:48.560 to exercise. 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.280 I don't call it a yard because it's actually still 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.440 an extension of the cell. It's still a concrete box 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.720 and you can only see a little sliver of the 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.800 sky from the windows. So the first time the doors 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.880 out of the bell sounded for exercise, I was so excited. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:11.400 I waited at the door, thinking, you know this is yeah, yeah, exactly, sure, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.000 shank redemption, you know, ideas of the sky and the sun, 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:20.679 and and then and also seeing other people. I didn't 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.040 know how it would work. And then it opens and 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.040 it's still this concrete box. I'm not sure how that's 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.200 different to exercising in the cell. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.040 I saw the exercises were you're doing just to stay sane, and. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.120 So because there were four of us, each of us 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.640 would take one corner and you only had about a 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:45.319 meter of space really to do your exercises. And at 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.760 the start I was fairly unfit because I had been 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.880 sitting on my bum for six months. So I started 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.880 to do push ups on the concrete ground, squats and 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.280 leg raisers, and later when I got a book on yoga, 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:09.920 some yoga posers. Because we had these cloth shoes, there's 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:15.160 no shock absorption whatsoever, so any cardio was pretty hard 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.360 on the joints. So I only did a little bit 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:23.080 of that, but lots of stretches, lots of light jogging 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.800 on the ground, and of course no bras, so we'll 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.640 try to tie knots under our bust and so on. 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.679 So it was very defeminizing. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.320 Again, it's just this ongoing thing. Where is your case 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.320 in regards to the process through the legal system at 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:44.200 this point in time. 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.000 Well, I used to be really naive about how long 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:52.120 it would take, and the prosecutor and the officers weren't 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.840 going to enlighten me. But once in the cell, I 0:11:54.920 --> 0:12:00.160 discovered that state security cases take years. Years to get 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.000 to prosecution, years to get to the trial, years to 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:08.320 get a verdict. And the worst I've heard is eight 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.280 years in the one cell right. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:15.360 In that detention. That's where you're hell, it's not heaven. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.400 Before being sent to prison, which I think is much 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:25.280 worse because in prison you can have family or friend visits, 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.240 you get to buy more stuff, you get to meet 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:32.040 more people. Yes, you are forced into labor, but in 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:37.040 some ways that can be positive too because you actually 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:37.880 feel useful. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.640 Well, I think it sort of demonstrates how low they 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.960 took you that you're looking at. If I could get 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:46.680 to prison, that would be great. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.720 Yeah, yeah, that would be I was looking forward to jail. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:55.720 WHOA, Okay, so you're called in this limbo. Did you 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.679 form the friendships of the people that you're in in 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.800 the cell with in the tension because you have been 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.480 living on each other's nerves. I would imagine there'd be 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.000 some highs and lawyers of living that close and with people. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.160 Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Highs 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:19.440 and lows. You in one way, really rely on them 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.400 because they're the only people who will comfort you, help you, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.160 even if it's something as small as when you buy 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.880 something that you don't want, then you can swap with 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.640 them for something else. But then, yes, like you said, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:42.320 there's no respite and we need space. I mean, even 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.840 if you were there with your soulmate, with your wife, yeah, 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.160 you would hate them after a while. And these are 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.000 the people that you didn't choose to be with who 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.440 personalities might not be what you look for in a friend. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.800 But yeah, so it's a constant push and Paul in 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.120 the dynamics. 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.359 You had one person in there that had the intellectual 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:10.559 discussions that you could add with a but she was 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.640 a horrible person. Yeah, yeah, that sucks. 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.839 It does. If she was easier, she would have been 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:19.680 much nicer to live with. 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.600 And at some stage you will put one out and 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.400 the cell with her, yes, and then you had to 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.040 complain when it just got too much. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:33.880 Because I couldn't sleep at night. She was paranoid that 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.680 I wasn't letting her sleep by making noise, so she 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.520 would get up in the middle of the night and 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.840 stand at my door, stand at my bed and ask me, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.160 did you pull up the sheets? Really loudly? I mean, 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:49.560 how loud can. 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.880 Pulling up the sheets be okay? 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.680 When I was the one being kept awake by her snoring? 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.200 But she was such a bully. 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.160 Yeah, well that makes that are uncomfortable. You were the 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:03.800 lights on the whole time. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.000 The only time in three years and two months that 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:15.000 I experienced darkness was a summer blackout, and I remember 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.160 all of us were sitting in the darkness, enjoying the 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:24.120 blackout because for once the lights were off and we 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.320 couldn't be seen on the monitors. 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:32.040 Yeah, I can imagine that. Other friendships you made in 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.840 the in the prison. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:40.120 I'd say two of the best friends. One I nicknamed 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.160 Canto because she's both Cantonese. Another one I nicknamed Hannah 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.480 because she loved all things Japanese and Hannah means flower 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.720 in Japanese and Canto was there from the day I 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.800 arrived until the day I went, and we were friends 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.360 because we liked to make fun of everything, and we 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.760 both had a dirty sense of humor, and she was 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.920 also quite daring, so in some of the naughtiest stuff, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:14.480 she would always be my sidekick, although I didn't let 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.160 her get punished because I knew that being foreign citizen 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.040 and also being a journalist, her story was being reported 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.800 widely that I would I wouldn't be treated as harshly. 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.000 Let's talk about some of those things you got up to, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.800 and these are real Shawshank redemption type stuff that brew 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.000 and getting on the drink. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.440 We didn't, we didn't dig ourselves out of the place, 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:46.440 but we did manage to celebrate Canto's birthday with some 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.440 home group homebrew. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.640 And that was putting fruit bills and fermenting or. 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.280 Yes, it was thanks to COVID that we were given 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:59.600 some apples and we could buy sugar. So the first 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.640 batch was all moldy, but I scraped it off and 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.000 drank it anyway because it just smelled so beautiful. And 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.560 then we made a second batch where Canto faked a 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.919 stomach ache and said she wanted hot water so we 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:20.800 could sort of sterilize the cup somewhat. And then later 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.359 they were my cell mates because then I was I 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:31.159 went upstairs for quarantine and they said the bubbles popping 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.199 in the cup was sounded really dangerous, because just in 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.560 case an officer came in for an inspection and heard, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:39.439 what's that noise? 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.280 Alcohol? What was the go with the knocking? The very 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.760 complicated system to communicate with prisoners in other cells, It. 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:59.639 Just shows how desperate you become to communicate with other people. 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.879 I mean, we only spoke to each other for the 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.800 whole three years. Well, obviously I was lucky enough to 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:12.960 have the embassy visits. But when the COVID wave hit 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.560 and we couldn't exercise in the yard, they would open 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.439 the door to the yard every morning for half an 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.800 hour for so called fresh air. So I would stand 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:32.000 near the yard and sing because it had good acoustics. 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.920 And then one day I heard a male from next door, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.760 because we were the female cell bracketed by two male cells, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:47.080 and he said, love your singing and said our cell number. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.359 So I said thank you, and we're really happy. Just 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.680 so you know how hard it is to actually be heard. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.920 The walls are so thick that we had never heard 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.639 a clear sentence before. They make it so that you don't. 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.560 You're never in the yard at the same time because 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.560 the odd numbers odd numbered cells and the even numbered 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.160 cells exercise at different times. But because of COVID, all 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.879 the doors were open for all the cells in the 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:20.200 morning to the exercise enclosure. That is, that was how 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.280 we could hear each other, And so we started to 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:29.000 illicitly have these conversations. And because the walls are so thick, 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:35.800 you've got to say something like Gary to actually be heard. Yeah, 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.040 And sometimes there would be a wind and it would 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.359 either help or hinder the conversation. So then we thought 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.439 of a way to communicate inside, which was to knock 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.399 on the walls via an alphabetical code. 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.919 We played games and I was trying to understand the code, 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.680 and that's two knocks for B, very knocks for C. 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:06.760 Was something someone's coming about loud. But how did the 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.959 other cell work out the system? Like, well, I suppose 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:11.359 you've got a lot of time on your hands. 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.520 So we had to devise the code while we were 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:20.520 talking in the mornings. Okay, yeah, during the day explain 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:25.920 the rules, and then during the day practice getting the codes. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.760 And what joy did that bring to you? Being able 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:29.960 to communicate with other. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:36.720 People immense It was like a miracle to know people 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:41.240 who live the same lives as we do and are 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.639 just two meters away, but they may as well be 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:55.320 on another planet. And that solidarity, the happiness of hearing 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.920 like one night there was a full moon, which I 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.360 could see like if I stood in a corner near 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:06.639 the toilet, and so we typed on the wall the 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:11.520 code for moon, and then we knew they were looking 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.560 at the moon as well by then because they would 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:19.080 respond with things like wine and romance, because the moon 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.000 is a very romantic symbol in Chinese culture. 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:28.160 Iose you talk solidarity, Yeah, it must. You would feel 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.600 so isolated in the environment you've moon and it just 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.280 almost makes you feel like you've got the connection with 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.480 the outside world, even though their prisoners sitting in the 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.000 same situation right beside you. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:45.320 Exactly. We often felt we were living underground and that 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:52.800 we were forgotten by the world, and we didn't know 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.280 anything about the world. I mean, yes, sure the TV 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.760 was on at night, but the state news is is 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.920 not exactly a portrayal of the real world. So anything 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.520 that we could find out about other people what was happening, 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.480 even if we sniffed garlic in the wind. 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:15.680 It was the sensors. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.919 Yeah, it made you feel like you were still alive 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:20.000 and still in the world. 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.199 Were you negotiation skills? You managed to watch the Olympics 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:29.520 and the World Cup soccer, Yeah, and that must have 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:30.560 been a big thing for you. 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:37.040 Empowering. Yeah, and to know that journalistic skills can come 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:42.400 in handy anyway. You know that whole pitching. I guess 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.920 when you've worked in journalism as long as I had, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.600 which was close to twenty years, you've pitched for a 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.160 lot of interviews and you've gotten a lot of rejection. 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:57.600 So that really prepares you well to speak to people 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.160 who are very likely to turn down your request. 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.960 Yeah, but hit the right the right note, and yeah, 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:08.439 they've got it. Singing was another big thing, like and 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:13.600 it's yeah, it's beautiful and you see what you're going 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:17.080 through where someone's birthday, one of your cell mate's birthday, 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.440 the songs prepared for them, and you sing a song 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.160 and things like that or Christmas Day says little things 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.560 that seemed to you hang on to and keep your sanity. 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.200 Absolutely, and that's how you make each day different because 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.840 like Wednesday, we're going to learn a new song. And Friday, 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.600 we're going to review the old songs. Like I said 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.040 on Mother's Day, we tried to find one that was 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:45.320 meaningful for the day. And talking about the lyrics, because 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.359 I think as women in there, as mothers and girlfriends 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:55.560 and daughters, you it's it's I mean, it's such a 0:23:55.600 --> 0:24:05.160 hard place, devoid of touches of femininity, no color, no beauty, 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:12.399 nothing soft and and that can be released through music. 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:15.000 A lot of Daggy eighty songs. 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:18.960 You had to remember the lyrics and did you have 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:21.240 to make up lyrics? 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.680 Okay, some of them I remembered, well some of them 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:28.320 I tried to guess. And now that I know what 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.080 the lyrics are, I have to apologize to my cell worts. 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.720 But later, when Nick was allowed to write to me, 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.560 my former partner, he would send me print outs of 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.520 the lyrics and thankfully they were allowed to come in 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:44.840 via the sensors. But I only had a few hours 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.200 to read them. And then because all the letters get 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:52.600 taken out of the cell and if I didn't remember it, 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:54.119 then what would I teach myself. 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:56.440 I'm starting to feel sorry for your cell mates. Now 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:57.920 you just made up these lyrics. 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:01.879 Only some little SNA but like, you know, if I 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.119 knew three verses, but then I was a bit sketchy 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.160 on the third verse then a little bit. 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:12.000 Yeah, what about books? That was a salvation for your 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:14.159 books coming into the prison. 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:19.760 Yes, because in RSDL it was like to ease pain, 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:24.800 and they were my friends. But then in detention where 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:28.080 I had cell mates but we ran out of things 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:32.160 to talk about, they were conversation starters, and they were 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.919 ways in which we could learn together and grow together 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:42.600 and discuss because we figured out that if we didn't 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:46.960 lift ourselves, we would think our brains would atrophy, our 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.320 moods would always be dark, and when we went out, 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.199 whether it's to jail or to see our family, what 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:59.199 would they see. We didn't want that. So it was 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:02.760 you know, exercise would strengthen our bodies, and then we 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:07.760 would keep our minds active with whether it's absorbing you 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:13.639 knowledge or debating some something in a book, or looking 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:15.160 at the world in a different way. 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:20.639 Keeping your mind active. Yeah, Okay, like your book, Well, 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:23.440 now that you bought that up a shame I don't 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.240