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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. In

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Speaker 1: part two of my chat with journalist Cheng Lai, who

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Speaker 1: was imprisoned in China for three years for I suppose

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Speaker 1: what could be best described as international espion arche, we

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Speaker 1: talked about how she survived with humor, compassion and dignity,

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Speaker 1: how she break the inhumane and bizarre rules impose on

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Speaker 1: her with a bit of rat cunning. I also learn

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Speaker 1: a lot about human nature from what I consider a

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Speaker 1: very impressive woman. So welcome back part two.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I promise not to make you cry this time.

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Speaker 2: I go up from us not to gray, Okay.

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Speaker 1: I'll tiptoe. One of the things that I picked up

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Speaker 1: on that help you survive, and it's a very human thing,

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Speaker 1: and maybe it's a very Australian thing too. Giving the

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Speaker 1: guards that were looking after your nicknames, some of which

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Speaker 1: weren't flattering, what was the rationale behind that.

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Speaker 2: Well, in that existence, you're not allowed to know anything.

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Speaker 2: You can't ask for the time, You can't ask what

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Speaker 2: their names are. And these are people who see you

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Speaker 2: shit show and sleep. It's actually very intimate. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: got a relationship, but see them all the time, and

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Speaker 2: and of course they're the only things or life forms

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Speaker 2: that you can observe, so you start to try to

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Speaker 2: work out what they're like, and that's how you identify

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Speaker 2: them in your head by their nicknames. Any unflattering ones,

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Speaker 2: well there was a very bad farta considering you know

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Speaker 2: we're sharing what.

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Speaker 1: Was called stick.

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Speaker 2: One was called child soldier because she looks so tiny

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Speaker 2: in this huge coat with the walkie talkie, and there

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Speaker 2: was some of the nicer ones were wordsmith because she

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Speaker 2: knew a lot of like when I would try to

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Speaker 2: write letters to my family and if I'd forgotten Chinese words,

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Speaker 2: she would tell me how to write it.

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Speaker 1: So there was little doses of humanity.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean you couldn't. You couldn't have a conversation,

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Speaker 2: but if it was just a very quick exchange.

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Speaker 1: And you had cameras, it wasn't. When the doors shut them,

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Speaker 1: you could talk that they knew they had cameras on

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Speaker 1: them as well. Yes, and I would imagine the punishment

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Speaker 1: would be fairly rigid on them if they break the rules.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, you.

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Speaker 1: With the detention that lasted six months.

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Speaker 2: That was rsdl R. Next part is detention.

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Speaker 1: Okay, to talk us through that, your next little adventure.

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Speaker 2: So I knew that the six months were coming up,

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Speaker 2: and I was looking forward to going somewhere else, and

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Speaker 2: I had found out that I would have cell mates

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Speaker 2: and that put me in good spirits. I was really

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Speaker 2: anticipating some human company, not the type that's surveilling. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when I did get to the detention center, which

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Speaker 2: is just down the say, down the road. It's all

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Speaker 2: one interconnected facility. Then I had to go through two

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Speaker 2: weeks of quarantine and that already was a step up

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Speaker 2: because I didn't have the guards with me all the time.

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Speaker 1: So quarantine, you're locked in, locked in the.

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Speaker 2: Cell by myself. Look at luxury, luxury exactly enough grade. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I could walk around instead of being limited to the

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Speaker 2: ten minutes so called exercise times only a few times

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Speaker 2: a day.

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Speaker 1: Can I just and something that I should have mentioned.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the psychological time that you were detained

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Speaker 1: for the first six months. Were you allowed to exercise

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Speaker 1: and what were the physical effects it had on you?

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Speaker 2: Oh my body went haywire. Yeah, hair fell out, purchase

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Speaker 2: of it for females. And I injured my back sitting

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Speaker 2: sitting on my bomb. Yeah, just too much sitting. And

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Speaker 2: the cell was cold. But then later they put in

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Speaker 2: a heater and I couldn't move for more than a week.

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Speaker 2: That's a lying in bed all the time. And cried

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Speaker 2: buckets when I tried to turn around in bed.

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Speaker 1: That painful.

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Speaker 2: That painful. So the lots of insomnia and anxiety all understandable.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're now looking at cell mates.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when I talk us through that that I

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Speaker 3: could imagine that would be so exciting after what the

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Speaker 3: deprivation that you've had someone that you might be able

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Speaker 3: to have a communication of communications with.

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Speaker 2: I used to compare RSDL to being buried alive, and

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Speaker 2: that I was actually sitting in a coffin, but being

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Speaker 2: with people again, especially people who were also suffering the

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Speaker 2: same fate, that was almost like a warm bath, like

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Speaker 2: coming in from the cold, because we could laugh, we

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Speaker 2: could make fun of the terrible food together, we could

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Speaker 2: share some things. Obviously, they warned us not to say

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Speaker 2: anything about our cases to each other. We weren't known

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Speaker 2: by our names, we were only known by numbers. But

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Speaker 2: still these were comrades.

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Speaker 1: As comrades, did you share your names? Did you you

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Speaker 1: on the opportunities if it presented itself, did you tell

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Speaker 1: a bit about your backstory?

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Speaker 2: And of course that all depends on how much you

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Speaker 2: trust each other and whether you think that person is decent.

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Speaker 2: After a while, we did share some names, but one

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Speaker 2: particular cell mate didn't tell me her name until I

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Speaker 2: was moved out of the cell with her.

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Speaker 1: Right so, how many cell mates did you have? And

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Speaker 1: describe the cell and describe the day to day living, I.

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Speaker 2: Suppose, so you're woken up by Beethoven's for a Lease

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Speaker 2: piano music. I feel sorry for the composer to be

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Speaker 2: used in such a horrible place.

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Speaker 1: Things don't getting with that, yep.

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Speaker 2: And so we all sleep on there's one long wooden

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Speaker 2: bed together about thirty centimeters apart, so you try to

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Speaker 2: not to intrude on the other person's bedspace as much

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Speaker 2: as possible. But then you're with each other all the

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Speaker 2: time and you share everything. The toilet doesn't have a door,

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Speaker 2: and there's a shower cam that looks straight into it,

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Speaker 2: so whether you're squatting over the toilet, whether you're having

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Speaker 2: a shower which is only weekly, whether you're washing your stuff,

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Speaker 2: they can still see. So five cameras in total in

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Speaker 2: each corner and the shower or the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Do you become accustomed to that and just okay, well

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Speaker 1: this is what it is. There is no privacy in.

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Speaker 2: You do accept that on an intellectual level. But then

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Speaker 2: when the buzzer sounds because there's an intercom and you

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Speaker 2: know that they have been watching you doing something, and

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Speaker 2: then they holler at you that stop doing that, or

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Speaker 2: even something as innocuous as I remember Mother's Day twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three, I had just gotten this book of songs

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Speaker 2: Chinese songs, and one of them was about that a

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Speaker 2: singer had written for his mum, and I thought, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: we'll learn this. And so the three of us are

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Speaker 2: sitting on the beds the edge of the bed together

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Speaker 2: and learning the song, and the buzzer says, stop huddling,

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Speaker 2: and you just all of a sudden, you think, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, I've done something wrong. And it's a terrible

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Speaker 2: feeling because it just kills all the warmth. And you

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Speaker 2: know that we were sharing at that moment.

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Speaker 1: Would add to your paranoia or that must just play

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Speaker 1: with your mind. I can't even comprehend it.

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Speaker 2: So well, that's what they want that you wouldn't even

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Speaker 2: dare that you would self censor about what you said

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Speaker 2: and what you did. And also they encourage you to

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Speaker 2: snitch on your cell mates.

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Speaker 1: Were you the whole time spent in the cell, Like,

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Speaker 1: did you have an exercise yard or you allowed out

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Speaker 1: to exercise.

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Speaker 2: I don't call it a yard because it's actually still

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Speaker 2: an extension of the cell. It's still a concrete box

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Speaker 2: and you can only see a little sliver of the

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Speaker 2: sky from the windows. So the first time the doors

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Speaker 2: out of the bell sounded for exercise, I was so excited.

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Speaker 2: I waited at the door, thinking, you know this is yeah, yeah, exactly, sure,

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Speaker 2: shank redemption, you know, ideas of the sky and the sun,

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Speaker 2: and and then and also seeing other people. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know how it would work. And then it opens and

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Speaker 2: it's still this concrete box. I'm not sure how that's

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Speaker 2: different to exercising in the cell.

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Speaker 1: I saw the exercises were you're doing just to stay sane, and.

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Speaker 2: So because there were four of us, each of us

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Speaker 2: would take one corner and you only had about a

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Speaker 2: meter of space really to do your exercises. And at

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Speaker 2: the start I was fairly unfit because I had been

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Speaker 2: sitting on my bum for six months. So I started

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Speaker 2: to do push ups on the concrete ground, squats and

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Speaker 2: leg raisers, and later when I got a book on yoga,

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Speaker 2: some yoga posers. Because we had these cloth shoes, there's

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Speaker 2: no shock absorption whatsoever, so any cardio was pretty hard

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Speaker 2: on the joints. So I only did a little bit

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Speaker 2: of that, but lots of stretches, lots of light jogging

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Speaker 2: on the ground, and of course no bras, so we'll

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Speaker 2: try to tie knots under our bust and so on.

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Speaker 2: So it was very defeminizing.

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Speaker 1: Again, it's just this ongoing thing. Where is your case

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Speaker 1: in regards to the process through the legal system at

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Speaker 1: this point in time.

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Speaker 2: Well, I used to be really naive about how long

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Speaker 2: it would take, and the prosecutor and the officers weren't

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Speaker 2: going to enlighten me. But once in the cell, I

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Speaker 2: discovered that state security cases take years. Years to get

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Speaker 2: to prosecution, years to get to the trial, years to

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Speaker 2: get a verdict. And the worst I've heard is eight

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Speaker 2: years in the one cell right.

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Speaker 1: In that detention. That's where you're hell, it's not heaven.

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Speaker 2: Before being sent to prison, which I think is much

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Speaker 2: worse because in prison you can have family or friend visits,

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Speaker 2: you get to buy more stuff, you get to meet

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Speaker 2: more people. Yes, you are forced into labor, but in

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Speaker 2: some ways that can be positive too because you actually

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Speaker 2: feel useful.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it sort of demonstrates how low they

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Speaker 1: took you that you're looking at. If I could get

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Speaker 1: to prison, that would be great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that would be I was looking forward to jail.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, Okay, so you're called in this limbo. Did you

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Speaker 1: form the friendships of the people that you're in in

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Speaker 1: the cell with in the tension because you have been

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Speaker 1: living on each other's nerves. I would imagine there'd be

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Speaker 1: some highs and lawyers of living that close and with people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Highs

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Speaker 2: and lows. You in one way, really rely on them

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Speaker 2: because they're the only people who will comfort you, help you,

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Speaker 2: even if it's something as small as when you buy

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Speaker 2: something that you don't want, then you can swap with

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Speaker 2: them for something else. But then, yes, like you said,

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Speaker 2: there's no respite and we need space. I mean, even

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Speaker 2: if you were there with your soulmate, with your wife, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you would hate them after a while. And these are

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Speaker 2: the people that you didn't choose to be with who

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Speaker 2: personalities might not be what you look for in a friend.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so it's a constant push and Paul in

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Speaker 2: the dynamics.

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Speaker 1: You had one person in there that had the intellectual

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Speaker 1: discussions that you could add with a but she was

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Speaker 1: a horrible person. Yeah, yeah, that sucks.

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Speaker 2: It does. If she was easier, she would have been

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Speaker 2: much nicer to live with.

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Speaker 1: And at some stage you will put one out and

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Speaker 1: the cell with her, yes, and then you had to

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Speaker 1: complain when it just got too much.

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Speaker 2: Because I couldn't sleep at night. She was paranoid that

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Speaker 2: I wasn't letting her sleep by making noise, so she

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Speaker 2: would get up in the middle of the night and

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Speaker 2: stand at my door, stand at my bed and ask me,

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Speaker 2: did you pull up the sheets? Really loudly? I mean,

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Speaker 2: how loud can.

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Speaker 1: Pulling up the sheets be okay?

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Speaker 2: When I was the one being kept awake by her snoring?

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Speaker 2: But she was such a bully.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that makes that are uncomfortable. You were the

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Speaker 1: lights on the whole time.

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Speaker 2: The only time in three years and two months that

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Speaker 2: I experienced darkness was a summer blackout, and I remember

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Speaker 2: all of us were sitting in the darkness, enjoying the

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Speaker 2: blackout because for once the lights were off and we

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Speaker 2: couldn't be seen on the monitors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine that. Other friendships you made in

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Speaker 1: the in the prison.

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Speaker 2: I'd say two of the best friends. One I nicknamed

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Speaker 2: Canto because she's both Cantonese. Another one I nicknamed Hannah

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Speaker 2: because she loved all things Japanese and Hannah means flower

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Speaker 2: in Japanese and Canto was there from the day I

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Speaker 2: arrived until the day I went, and we were friends

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Speaker 2: because we liked to make fun of everything, and we

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Speaker 2: both had a dirty sense of humor, and she was

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Speaker 2: also quite daring, so in some of the naughtiest stuff,

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Speaker 2: she would always be my sidekick, although I didn't let

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Speaker 2: her get punished because I knew that being foreign citizen

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Speaker 2: and also being a journalist, her story was being reported

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Speaker 2: widely that I would I wouldn't be treated as harshly.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of those things you got up to,

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Speaker 1: and these are real Shawshank redemption type stuff that brew

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Speaker 1: and getting on the drink.

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Speaker 2: We didn't, we didn't dig ourselves out of the place,

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Speaker 2: but we did manage to celebrate Canto's birthday with some

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Speaker 2: home group homebrew.

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Speaker 1: And that was putting fruit bills and fermenting or.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was thanks to COVID that we were given

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Speaker 2: some apples and we could buy sugar. So the first

264
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Speaker 2: batch was all moldy, but I scraped it off and

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00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 2: drank it anyway because it just smelled so beautiful. And

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Speaker 2: then we made a second batch where Canto faked a

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Speaker 2: stomach ache and said she wanted hot water so we

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Speaker 2: could sort of sterilize the cup somewhat. And then later

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Speaker 2: they were my cell mates because then I was I

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Speaker 2: went upstairs for quarantine and they said the bubbles popping

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Speaker 2: in the cup was sounded really dangerous, because just in

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Speaker 2: case an officer came in for an inspection and heard,

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Speaker 2: what's that noise?

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Speaker 1: Alcohol? What was the go with the knocking? The very

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Speaker 1: complicated system to communicate with prisoners in other cells, It.

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Speaker 2: Just shows how desperate you become to communicate with other people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we only spoke to each other for the

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Speaker 2: whole three years. Well, obviously I was lucky enough to

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Speaker 2: have the embassy visits. But when the COVID wave hit

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Speaker 2: and we couldn't exercise in the yard, they would open

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Speaker 2: the door to the yard every morning for half an

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Speaker 2: hour for so called fresh air. So I would stand

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Speaker 2: near the yard and sing because it had good acoustics.

284
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Speaker 2: And then one day I heard a male from next door,

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Speaker 2: because we were the female cell bracketed by two male cells,

286
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Speaker 2: and he said, love your singing and said our cell number.

287
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Speaker 2: So I said thank you, and we're really happy. Just

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Speaker 2: so you know how hard it is to actually be heard.

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Speaker 2: The walls are so thick that we had never heard

290
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Speaker 2: a clear sentence before. They make it so that you don't.

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Speaker 2: You're never in the yard at the same time because

292
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,560
Speaker 2: the odd numbers odd numbered cells and the even numbered

293
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 2: cells exercise at different times. But because of COVID, all

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00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 2: the doors were open for all the cells in the

295
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Speaker 2: morning to the exercise enclosure. That is, that was how

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Speaker 2: we could hear each other, And so we started to

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Speaker 2: illicitly have these conversations. And because the walls are so thick,

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Speaker 2: you've got to say something like Gary to actually be heard. Yeah,

299
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 2: And sometimes there would be a wind and it would

300
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 2: either help or hinder the conversation. So then we thought

301
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 2: of a way to communicate inside, which was to knock

302
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Speaker 2: on the walls via an alphabetical code.

303
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Speaker 1: We played games and I was trying to understand the code,

304
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Speaker 1: and that's two knocks for B, very knocks for C.

305
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 1: Was something someone's coming about loud. But how did the

306
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,959
Speaker 1: other cell work out the system? Like, well, I suppose

307
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Speaker 1: you've got a lot of time on your hands.

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Speaker 2: So we had to devise the code while we were

309
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Speaker 2: talking in the mornings. Okay, yeah, during the day explain

310
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Speaker 2: the rules, and then during the day practice getting the codes.

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Speaker 1: And what joy did that bring to you? Being able

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Speaker 1: to communicate with other.

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Speaker 2: People immense It was like a miracle to know people

314
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Speaker 2: who live the same lives as we do and are

315
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: just two meters away, but they may as well be

316
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 2: on another planet. And that solidarity, the happiness of hearing

317
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: like one night there was a full moon, which I

318
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 2: could see like if I stood in a corner near

319
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 2: the toilet, and so we typed on the wall the

320
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: code for moon, and then we knew they were looking

321
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: at the moon as well by then because they would

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00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: respond with things like wine and romance, because the moon

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Speaker 2: is a very romantic symbol in Chinese culture.

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Speaker 1: Iose you talk solidarity, Yeah, it must. You would feel

325
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Speaker 1: so isolated in the environment you've moon and it just

326
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: almost makes you feel like you've got the connection with

327
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: the outside world, even though their prisoners sitting in the

328
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: same situation right beside you.

329
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Speaker 2: Exactly. We often felt we were living underground and that

330
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Speaker 2: we were forgotten by the world, and we didn't know

331
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Speaker 2: anything about the world. I mean, yes, sure the TV

332
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: was on at night, but the state news is is

333
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: not exactly a portrayal of the real world. So anything

334
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: that we could find out about other people what was happening,

335
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 2: even if we sniffed garlic in the wind.

336
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Speaker 1: It was the sensors.

337
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it made you feel like you were still alive

338
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Speaker 2: and still in the world.

339
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 1: Were you negotiation skills? You managed to watch the Olympics

340
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: and the World Cup soccer, Yeah, and that must have

341
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Speaker 1: been a big thing for you.

342
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 2: Empowering. Yeah, and to know that journalistic skills can come

343
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: in handy anyway. You know that whole pitching. I guess

344
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: when you've worked in journalism as long as I had,

345
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: which was close to twenty years, you've pitched for a

346
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 2: lot of interviews and you've gotten a lot of rejection.

347
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: So that really prepares you well to speak to people

348
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Speaker 2: who are very likely to turn down your request.

349
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but hit the right the right note, and yeah,

350
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Speaker 1: they've got it. Singing was another big thing, like and

351
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's beautiful and you see what you're going

352
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: through where someone's birthday, one of your cell mate's birthday,

353
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: the songs prepared for them, and you sing a song

354
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: and things like that or Christmas Day says little things

355
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Speaker 1: that seemed to you hang on to and keep your sanity.

356
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's how you make each day different because

357
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: like Wednesday, we're going to learn a new song. And Friday,

358
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: we're going to review the old songs. Like I said

359
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: on Mother's Day, we tried to find one that was

360
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: meaningful for the day. And talking about the lyrics, because

361
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: I think as women in there, as mothers and girlfriends

362
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: and daughters, you it's it's I mean, it's such a

363
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: hard place, devoid of touches of femininity, no color, no beauty,

364
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: nothing soft and and that can be released through music.

365
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: A lot of Daggy eighty songs.

366
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: You had to remember the lyrics and did you have

367
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: to make up lyrics?

368
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: Okay, some of them I remembered, well some of them

369
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: I tried to guess. And now that I know what

370
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: the lyrics are, I have to apologize to my cell worts.

371
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: But later, when Nick was allowed to write to me,

372
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: my former partner, he would send me print outs of

373
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: the lyrics and thankfully they were allowed to come in

374
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: via the sensors. But I only had a few hours

375
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: to read them. And then because all the letters get

376
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: taken out of the cell and if I didn't remember it,

377
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 2: then what would I teach myself.

378
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel sorry for your cell mates. Now

379
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: you just made up these lyrics.

380
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: Only some little SNA but like, you know, if I

381
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: knew three verses, but then I was a bit sketchy

382
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 2: on the third verse then a little bit.

383
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about books? That was a salvation for your

384
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: books coming into the prison.

385
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: Yes, because in RSDL it was like to ease pain,

386
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: and they were my friends. But then in detention where

387
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: I had cell mates but we ran out of things

388
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: to talk about, they were conversation starters, and they were

389
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: ways in which we could learn together and grow together

390
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: and discuss because we figured out that if we didn't

391
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: lift ourselves, we would think our brains would atrophy, our

392
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: moods would always be dark, and when we went out,

393
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 2: whether it's to jail or to see our family, what

394
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 2: would they see. We didn't want that. So it was

395
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: you know, exercise would strengthen our bodies, and then we

396
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: would keep our minds active with whether it's absorbing you

397
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: knowledge or debating some something in a book, or looking

398
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 2: at the world in a different way.

399
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: Keeping your mind active. Yeah, Okay, like your book, Well,

400
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: now that you bought that up a shame I don't

401
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: have a copy. You did mention that you read Eye

402
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: Catch Killers in the detention center.

403
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it.

404
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: Very much, very good. I don't want to put you

405
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: on the spot, but you've probably read one hundred or

406
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: so books there, three hundred three hundred? Is it in

407
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: the top ten? You can lie to me here.

408
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do a top ten. I would

409
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: say there were books in there that moved me to

410
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: my surprise, or moved me or helped me that I

411
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: wouldn't have thought they would. Things like poetry, like philosophy,

412
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: history and science, because they all give you different perspectives

413
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 2: on suffering. Like science doesn't care to science, happiness is

414
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: just a chemical reaction, and we can do that. We

415
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: can engineer it in our bodies like exercise or taking

416
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: taking things. But I guess that means you don't feel

417
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: sorry for yourself. You don't think of yourself.

418
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: Okays, a way of stepping away in exactly situation.

419
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: And the universe, like to the universe, what are we,

420
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: We're nothing?

421
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: Keeping keeping your more indactive. Yeah, and poetry. You had

422
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: a few books on poetry that was helping that that

423
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: brings in something that seemed to really resonate with you

424
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: when you're in there.

425
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we didn't see anything beautiful or hear or

426
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: touch anything beautiful. Having the beautiful imagery means that our

427
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: minds weren't always on dark things like handcuffs and blindfolds

428
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: and being wheelchaired around and being called only by a number.

429
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: We could visualize, you know, the gold hush of noon

430
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: in the book in the poem My Country by Dorothy

431
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: and mckella, and I love Alison Kraggen's She's an Australian

432
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: poet who wrote about the Elwood Organic Fruit and Vegetable

433
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,719
Speaker 2: Shop because I love fresh produce, and that took all

434
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: the descriptions. Yeah, yeah, And there's a bit about damp

435
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: warm orchids, damp woman damp like literal kisses, which I

436
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: had to explain to Canto.

437
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: I wasn't lost in the translation.

438
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: It was English. I was able to get English books.

439
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: She loved that.

440
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: It seems like you you were the leader of the

441
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: ship in there, like the captain.

442
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: I was nicknamed teacher.

443
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

444
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: I was the head troublemaker, and to the extent that

445
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: I bought these male underpants for to sleep in. And

446
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: then when it was because every month there was a raid,

447
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: and when an officer saw these male underpants, she thought

448
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: I had somehow smuggled it in from another cell.

449
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: Is this person under the bed?

450
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

451
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I just think going through that having no sense, like,

452
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's easier to apply yourself if you know, Okay,

453
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: i've got to do five years, I've got to do

454
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: two years, and I've got one year down. I've got

455
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: four years to get whatever. But you were left in

456
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: limbo for a long time, weren't you. You had no

457
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: idea of how long are you going to be there for?

458
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: Well, I signed a leniency agreement yep, by admitting guilt

459
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: and accepting punished that. Uh, because I signed it, the

460
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: prosecutor would recommend a five year sentence. And there's a

461
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: party in the book about bargaining over my sentence, which

462
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: is very dark but slightly funny too. And so I

463
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: started counting down five years, which would be November of

464
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: this year, right, And I just kept thinking, when I

465
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: come out, the kids won't be kids anymore.

466
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.

467
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: You know, I used to think it was twenty years

468
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: or I would never get out. So yeah, expectations, they

469
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: are a funny thing. And so I was always working

470
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: to that date. But then there was also the possibility

471
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: that the judge would sentence me to something longer. I mean,

472
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: they hold all the power, and defense lawyers can do

473
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: very very very little, if anything.

474
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, dealings with the embassy, How did you find that?

475
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: Oh, they were so caring. I still keep in touch

476
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: with Tony, the consul officer who came almost thirty times

477
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: to visit me and one Chinese New Year because it

478
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: was the Year of the Rabbit and I was born

479
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: in the Year of the Rabbit. He wore bugs bunny

480
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: socks to cheer me up. And it wasn't an in

481
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: person visit. It was still by video link, so he

482
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: had to lift up his foot and it was on

483
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: a wonky angle so I could only see a little bit.

484
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: The thought that make a difference.

485
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: And actually, at one of the last visits, I wrote

486
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: a little poem, very sentimental poem about the about them

487
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: being the the fuzzy wuzzies of defat because they're the

488
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: only people to make you feel.

489
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: Like people are care. Yeah, did you realize? And I

490
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: know there's always debate on whether to go public on

491
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: situations like this or whether it's better to handle it

492
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: behind closed doors negotiations for a release of someone like yourself,

493
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: what was your inclination? Did you want to shout it

494
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: from the rooftops, look where I am, rather than people

495
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: have found themselves in a similar position to you. Yourself

496
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: told look, we don't want to blow this up. It's

497
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: easier to negotay that without it be becoming public. What

498
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: was your thoughts when you're in.

499
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: There, Well, I thought it was better to have publicity,

500
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: to have people know what I was going through. But

501
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: my family, especially my dad, who has suffered at the

502
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: hands of the Communist Party before he came to Australia,

503
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: believed that it was better to keep quiet because China

504
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: loves its face. But I still I'm still inclined towards

505
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: the media telling the story. And there are examples of

506
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: my treatment or getting better treatment because I did complain

507
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: about the food, about going hungry, and things did improve.

508
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: And to the when there was something that they did

509
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: that was that was okay, like when they allowed us

510
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: to watch the World Cup whatever, I would say that too.

511
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

512
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: I thinkness and transparency.

513
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: I think transparency is important. Each case probably judge on

514
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: its own merits, but I would imagine if I was

515
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: in a situation that you found yourself in, I'd want

516
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: it to be out there publicly. Because otherwise you think, well,

517
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: does anyone know, does anyone care?

518
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: That's right?

519
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: So I can imagine that would help you dealing with

520
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: your situation, knowing that they're people you're not forgotten, because

521
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: you would feel forgotten in there.

522
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

523
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like how you maintain your sanity in that situation, Like, well,

524
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 1: you've talked about the books and the communication, the fun

525
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: thing things you do. But full credit to you for

526
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: hanging in there, because I can just imagine just just

527
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: both give up or you just have a sulk and

528
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: life ship.

529
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: No, I think. I think if you were in detention,

530
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: you would do a lot of exercise and that creates

531
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: the endorphins to not let your mind go, keep you going. Yeah,

532
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: and helping people, and again that's Ozzie made ship, standing

533
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: up for your mates.

534
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think, and one of your cell mats in

535
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: the books you are very timid, timid young lady and introvert.

536
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: But you guys took a lot of comfort in trying

537
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: to help her through her times.

538
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 2: Exactly when she did something that was out of a character,

539
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: like actually perform a little comedy skit for me on

540
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: my birthday, when she ate a bit more, when she

541
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: enjoyed the cake. The cake. It was so gratifying, and

542
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: that probably helps you more than being helped yourself.

543
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, little things. When did you find out you were

544
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: going to escape this night mare?

545
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: September twenty seven, twenty twenty three. Okay, first day of

546
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: my life?

547
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: How did I'm about?

548
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: So it was Dave of my sentencing, something I had

549
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: been waiting for. So I remember, this is a year

550
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: and a half after my show trial, which went for

551
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: ninety minutes, and I just wanted it to be over.

552
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: I just wanted to get to a different place, and

553
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: especially to have family visits. So the same deal mine folded,

554
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: feet shackled, handcuffed, and then off to the court, sitting

555
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: in this little cage. And then the judge comes over

556
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: and he's smiling at me. And in all that time

557
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: I'd seen him plenty of times before because he had

558
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: to preside over every embassy visit, I'd never seen him smile.

559
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: And he said, what do you think you're going to

560
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: be sentenced to?

561
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

562
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: And I said I had a bad dream that it

563
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 2: was eight years. Then he said, I think you will

564
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: be satisfied with the sentence.

565
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: What the fuck?

566
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 2: So that goes the serenity.

567
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but did you, like until you actually walked out

568
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: or till you're on the plane, did you have this

569
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: little bit of a hole back going Oh, how could

570
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: they might be playing with me?

571
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: I was the champion at dampeney expectations because I would

572
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: rather think the worst and then be pleasantly always.

573
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: Okay and you okay, you've got the finish line. You're

574
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: seeing the finish line. What was going through your mind

575
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: about getting back and seeing your kids or your family

576
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: and then people close to you.

577
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: Well, I still had to jump through a few hoops. Yeah,

578
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 2: And the officers always made it sound like there's still

579
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: a chance that you were past that you won't be free.

580
00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 2: So I was very nervous about Like, can you imagine

581
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: if you think you're going to be freed and then

582
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: finally that's taken away from you, that devastated.

583
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: I can't imagine, honestly can't imagine.

584
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: So very tense couple of weeks between the sentencing and

585
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: actually going free.

586
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: Did you let your cell mates know? Did you go

587
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: back to your yourself?

588
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 3: You?

589
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: I couldn't. That was the cruelest thing. I was put

590
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: into a different cell on the morning of the sentencing,

591
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: and I still remember telling them be good, remember the

592
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: song lyrics I'm going to quiz you when I come back.

593
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 2: And I didn't. Yeah, and I And it was before

594
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: they had gotten up, so before waking time. And if

595
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: I'd known, I would have given them everything because I

596
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: had this sort of single it that's the most coveted items,

597
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 2: luxury items. Yeah, yeah, and I know how much any

598
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: of my things would have made a difference to them.

599
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: And also, but I guess what the officers say does

600
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: make sense in that it would be very cruel to

601
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: tell them that I was going free while they still

602
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 2: had long sentences ahead of them. Yeah.

603
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: I can imagine that they'd be happy for you, but

604
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: then reflect on their situation. Yeah, that's probably one of

605
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: the conditions that makes sense in what they talk about.

606
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 2: You are also afraid of messages being sent out.

607
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's true. They seem to be afraid of everything.

608
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: They are, and they still are. I think what I say,

609
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: what I do, I think still creates.

610
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: You will not to come on my Catch Killers podcast

611
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: because I don't want to get in trouble.

612
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 2: So it might be bad for life going to China.

613
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: I can't get that I did I've been to China

614
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: a few times. I quite like it. That's beautiful. Yeah,

615
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: your physical I laughed because I went not laughing at you,

616
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: laughing with you. You hadn't seen yourself in the mirror

617
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: for a long time. You saw yourself, So I'm trying

618
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: to tell what did you see and what did Were

619
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: you surprised by how you changed over the time that

620
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: you spent.

621
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the only way that to look at ourselves,

622
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: to see ourselves was like there's a bit of the

623
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: shower head of chrome chrome, or there's a little bit

624
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: of acrylic glass near the door that we used to

625
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: nickname the mirror, but that doesn't show you look like

626
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: that's that's like a shadow of what you look like.

627
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: And then in the court mirror, I just saw this

628
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: much older and like very pallid, a ghost of who

629
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: I used to be, which was kick ass, like always.

630
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: Up and ready to gap. It must come as a

631
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: shock you don't realize that the toll has taken on you.

632
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, and actually looking at yourself in the mirror,

633
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: and that.

634
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: Day for the court, I had already been dressed in

635
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 2: like my the best clothes I'd born in years. You

636
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 2: thought you're right, exactly, that's right. And I looked ship

637
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 2: and this haircut by this woman who didn't have her

638
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: glasses on, and I was kneeling on the on the

639
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: bed while she did it.

640
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: And you trip home, you're on the plane, you come home.

641
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: Tell us about that, because I can't imagine the feeling

642
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: that you would have getting on the plane and ready

643
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: to fly out of the fly out of the country

644
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and get back to see your children.

645
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: Something like heart about to burst and wanting to scream

646
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: and laugh and jump up. Because I couldn't on the plane,

647
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: I tried to buy a red lipstick on duty free,

648
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: and then the stewardess asked me, because I only had

649
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: the leftover cash from my prison account, she said, do

650
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: you have a card? And then all of a sudden

651
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 2: I felt really shy.

652
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: You've been out of circulation.

653
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: I couldn't explain why I didn't have a card. Then

654
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: I was just babbling for hours to poor Ambassador Graham Fletcher.

655
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: He flew back with you, Yes he did.

656
00:42:53,200 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: And I was nervous, anticipating it all, uncertain what I

657
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: would see. I mean, I hadn't seen the kids for

658
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 2: so long. I saw some photos, but that's so different. Too.

659
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: What age are we talking the kids went from the

660
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: time you last saw them to the time you're about

661
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: to see them. What how old were they?

662
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: Well, I were eight and ten and then looking at it,

663
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: they were twelve and fourteen. Big difference, Yeah, huge difference.

664
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: Like I used to hold them like mother hen under

665
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: my arms, and now they were well, my daughter was

666
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: already taller and my son was catching up to me.

667
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: And she had like my daughter had to become independent

668
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: going to boarding school, and my mum had aged a

669
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 2: lot in that time.

670
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: She was looking after your son.

671
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well and aba when she came back on weekends

672
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 2: and hold days.

673
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: So which airport did you land at? And felt there

674
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: was there a run up in a big cuddle and cry.

675
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: And they were in a in a room. And I

676
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: remember walking along the corridor of international arrivals and just

677
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 2: I was floating, but I also felt a bit nervous

678
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: because of how I looked and how I was, and

679
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: but it also felt like I was finally home. Yeah.

680
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: What impact do you think this has had on your kids?

681
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: Having their mother away in circumstances like this for so long?

682
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: I think my son in some ways, I mean, I'm

683
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: trying to get him out of it. In some ways

684
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: is still the eight year old who doesn't know if

685
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: mom will ever come back, especially last year. He's a

686
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: little bit older this year. Last year he used to say,

687
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 2: promised me, like if I went on a business trip,

688
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: promised me, you'll come back. And my daughter is some

689
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: I guess you would say, far too independent because she's

690
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: had to do everything herself and credit to that. And

691
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 2: both kids have a very warped sense of humor, which

692
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: I think helped help them get through.

693
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: Well, you've been parted something unfortunately, look at this was

694
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: that only tricking And I've been away for four years

695
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: in prison. But how has it changed you as a person?

696
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: Oh, in many ways. First of all the appreciation of

697
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: freedom and life and just knowing that at any moment

698
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: it can all go from you. So if you're not

699
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: taking everything you can at life's buffet, you are wasting it.

700
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: And that was my message at the Ted talk as well.

701
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: It's an interesting message to take, and that very understandable,

702
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: isn't it, because life can just be turned upside down,

703
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: not just the way your life is, but anyone's life

704
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 1: could be turned upside down in a moment's notice.

705
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so don't be complacent, don't be lazy. Yeah, and

706
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: the things that you'll regret are risks. You didn't take love,

707
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: you didn't show, places you didn't explore, So do all that.

708
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:56,479
Speaker 2: Don't wait.

709
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: It's a good, good message.

710
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: And the SATs and the money stuff, don't worry so

711
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 2: much about that.

712
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: Well, it didn't help you out much dinner exactly, sitting

713
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: over in your detention center with my little box of

714
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: but you did, and yes, single it. You were so lucky.

715
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: What are you doing since you've you've got back out,

716
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: other than rekindling your relationship with your kids that I'm

717
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: sure are annoying you by now as well as well

718
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: as much as you miss them.

719
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: Can I go back to detention again? Exactly?

720
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: So did it turn your way from working as a journalist? Experience?

721
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: Once I got over the Stockholm syndrome and saw how

722
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: much journalists other journalists had helped me, I had rediscovered

723
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: passion for it, my passion for it, and I was

724
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: very lucky that the Sky News offered me a position,

725
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: and that to this day when I do get leads

726
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 2: on arbitrary and wrongful detention stories or other stories of injustice,

727
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: that I can actually write about it and tried to

728
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 2: make a difference. That's very healing. But then in some

729
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: ways I'm being kept from doing what I'm good at doing,

730
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: which is reborn on China, especially after what happened with

731
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: Premier Li Chung's visit to Canberra last year, because the

732
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 2: diplomats tried to block me, and then all.

733
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: The Chinese diplomas yes, yep.

734
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: And then all the story is around that gave some

735
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: people more of an impression that I was now radioactive

736
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: and talking to me was was dangerous. So I get

737
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: I get shadow canceled.

738
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: That hurts. There was an extract in your book that

739
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: you said, and I see that it still carries carries

740
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: with you, like your reputation is important and what you

741
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: stand for and the stigma of what you've been through.

742
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: Lives were being spread on the Chinese internet, commentary branding

743
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: mes China Hating West loving spy. Yeah, I carry my

744
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: leper status with complex feelings. Whilst it's an honor to

745
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: be revived by a regime that invents an alternative reality

746
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: because it cannot look after itself squarely, it is sad

747
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: and frustrating to be feared where there is no cause.

748
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are they afraid of? Yeah, well, I'm just

749
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: trying to do my job.

750
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 1: I pulled that out because I was reading AK. It's

751
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: a nice situation. You're out, you're back, reunited with your family,

752
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: you're back working, but you're still carrying something, aren't you.

753
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like last week I discovered that China's top police

754
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: university made a video basically warning people about spies and

755
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 2: probably recruiting students as well, and using pictures of me

756
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: and of the Canadian hostage diplomacy victims.

757
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that must hurt.

758
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it hurts, and it's also ridiculous. But I'm

759
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 2: trying to turn the hurt into motivation and into calls

760
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: for more openness.

761
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: Well, you one of the things, and you probably won't

762
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: raise it, but I'll raise it that the You've got

763
00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: an award Australian Journalist Award the Australian Press Counsel, and

764
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: the award was in two thousand and twenty four, twenty

765
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: twenty four, and basically it was for your honored for

766
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: your resilience and courage. So that's a substantial award. And

767
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: I think they resilience and courage, they're pretty good characteristics

768
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: to be identified by your peers.

769
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: I'm very honored and feel undeserving, But I guess I'll

770
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 2: use the ward to do more, to speak up more.

771
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 2: And with this book and the documentary, it is telling

772
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: some uncomfortable well for the Chinese government, and there's so

773
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: much fear. It's insidious. It's in our universities, it's in

774
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 2: our government officials, it's in every probably every overseas Chinese person,

775
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: and it makes people self censor and affects how they

776
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 2: carry themselves and even make friends. It's terrible. And if

777
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: we do do that, if we are bound by those fears,

778
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 2: then we're not free. Yeah, then what's the point of

779
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 2: living in Australia. You may as well be in China.

780
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think, yeah, there's a strong possibility you'll have

781
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 1: an important, important role in the future with what your experiences,

782
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: your qualifications and your life experiences as well, that it

783
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: is a time for someone like yourself to be speaking

784
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: out and putting transparency on what's going on.

785
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: I hope so. But I also want people to think

786
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 2: and understand more than they judge. Sometimes I'm disappointed when

787
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: I read very simplistic commentary, very absolutist statements. Stop trading

788
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: with China, or why do people go to China like,

789
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: like you said, you found China to be fantastic. Yeah,

790
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: and how do we accept that the beauty or the

791
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 2: ingenuity of the some of the technology, but then also

792
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: be able to look at what's wrong with it and

793
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 2: call a spade a spade.

794
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: M Well, hopefully that can that can occur. Just don't

795
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: get yourself in the trouble. Speaking of the time in there,

796
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that, do you, supported you

797
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: and carried you. And these are not I'm not talking

798
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 1: your cell mates or the people that you met at

799
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: the embassy, but these are people back home that were

800
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: champion your cause. And do you want to give a

801
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: shout out to those people and what they meant to you?

802
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: What was going on?

803
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 2: I mean, some of the things I knew about, but

804
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 2: the whole of it I only found out after I

805
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: came out, and the first few months I went around

806
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: thanking them. Whether it's Anlese. Nielsen who's now based in Washington, DC,

807
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: who led the public letter writing campaign, her sister Mary

808
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 2: Macklin from wa who heard about my complete stranger and

809
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: somehow was able to get her short but very uplifting

810
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: notes through to me. I mean to know that strangers

811
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: are praying for you. Let's just yeah, so heartwarming, and

812
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 2: I did go go meet her. Some of the writers

813
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: I've already spoken about, and the people you've had on

814
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: the show, Peter crist Or, Sean Turnell, and Kylie Moore Gilbert,

815
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 2: Kylie and Peter both wrote to me. Yeah, former Prime

816
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,479
Speaker 2: Minister John Howard, who wrote this fantastic, pitch perfect letter

817
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: to a senior Chinese leader, and of course the defat

818
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: officers who came to visit me. Would you believe that

819
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 2: on the day of my freedom flight, Tony from the

820
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: embassy still wore colorful.

821
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: Socks like maybe he just likes color.

822
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 2: He said he was watching me like it sounded like

823
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: a spy novel, the whole you know, waiting around the

824
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: tarmac watching me get on.

825
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: I knew it.

826
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 2: And my my number in detention was actually double O

827
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 2: three as opposed to double seventh.

828
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: You could never get to double seven double three. That

829
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: seems pretty cool, double three okay, that's yeah, okay.

830
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 2: And all my peers in the media who kept my

831
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: story from going cold, and all as saying they believed

832
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 2: in me and that I should be freed. And of

833
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 2: course my former partner, Nick Coyle, who did so much too,

834
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 2: tell journalists what was happening, to speak to diplomats, and

835
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: to write all these wonderful love letters to me that

836
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 2: my cell mates couldn't believe, because the common thing in

837
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: China is once you've been inside, you're tainted, right, and

838
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: people should abandon you.

839
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: It's the next communication helped you, helped you get through.

840
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 2: It so much. And even seeing those awful comments online,

841
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 2: Nick made a joke. He said, what you should do

842
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 2: is a semi nude spread buried in mounds of cash,

843
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: surrounded by oiled out Brazilian toy voice. If they say

844
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 2: I'm spy and you know, yeah, well fling it in

845
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 2: your face, full spy.

846
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look that that type of humor that comes

847
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: through in your book, and I really enjoyed, enjoyed reading

848
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: the book. It's thank you got the sense of who

849
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: you were and the strength of character, and you know,

850
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: it's the award that you've got for your courage and

851
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: your resilience that certainly came through in the book. But

852
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were going to be so funny.

853
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to add humor to it. But and the

854
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: other thing is it's great when journalism gets a lot

855
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: of criticism. Doesn't and it gets a lot of criticism,

856
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: but it's so important and it can Making sure that

857
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: people tell stories like they supported you is something that

858
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: we need to stand strong on.

859
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we have to become good journalism consumers

860
00:57:54,600 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: and we can all be citizen journalists. So it's all

861
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: about integrity and whatever we do.

862
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're very good at what you've done. Because

863
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: I haven't cracked you. I was going to get this

864
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: was going to be the big scoop for Catch Killer.

865
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: See I told you she was a spot. You beat me.

866
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: I have to go back to see me behind the wheel.

867
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: Your kids have sent me the video of your trying

868
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: to reverse part. Thank you so much for coming on.

869
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the chat. And yeah, good luck in

870
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: the future. And quite impressive what you've been through and

871
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: still come out with a smile on your face.

872
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, Gary. She's