1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approcheate production. 2 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,841 Speaker 2: Would you like to take us on a walk through 3 00:00:19,201 --> 00:00:23,041 Speaker 2: where it began and how you become involved with this 4 00:00:23,161 --> 00:00:25,601 Speaker 2: project and what it actually is about. Yeah. 5 00:00:25,681 --> 00:00:29,321 Speaker 3: Sure, it's a funny story. 6 00:00:29,361 --> 00:00:31,201 Speaker 1: So it started in my garage. 7 00:00:31,521 --> 00:00:36,601 Speaker 3: I have three children, and my middle son he started 8 00:00:36,601 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 3: to get involved with the you know, become known to 9 00:00:39,521 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: the police at about the age of fourteen. And prior 10 00:00:44,881 --> 00:00:49,161 Speaker 3: to that we had no I had no idea. I'd 11 00:00:49,161 --> 00:00:51,601 Speaker 3: never been to court, you know, I'd been at a 12 00:00:51,601 --> 00:00:56,281 Speaker 3: police station, but for other things. And it really showed 13 00:00:56,361 --> 00:01:02,841 Speaker 3: us just how how many gaps there are in the system. 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,521 Speaker 3: He was in the system. He started at about fourteen 15 00:01:08,121 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: and has been in prison for quite a while. 16 00:01:12,041 --> 00:01:13,401 Speaker 4: Now he's still serving time. 17 00:01:13,481 --> 00:01:19,281 Speaker 3: Is he still serving time? And so the other thing 18 00:01:19,321 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 3: that we found was we started looking into it. I 19 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,921 Speaker 3: kept telling my family, you know, this is bigger than us. 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,481 Speaker 3: We started doing research. I started doing a little bit 21 00:01:31,521 --> 00:01:37,241 Speaker 3: of research and found that, you know, we overrepresent in 22 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,121 Speaker 3: the prison system. 23 00:01:38,241 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: Can we just just I want to make this very clear. 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: So you're based in Sydney. 25 00:01:42,481 --> 00:01:45,121 Speaker 1: We're in Southwest so I'm in the Liverpool. 26 00:01:44,801 --> 00:01:49,441 Speaker 2: Liverpool area, and you're yourself of a Polynesian background. 27 00:01:49,321 --> 00:01:55,161 Speaker 3: So I'm Fiji and Chinese, but my husband is Fijian, and. 28 00:01:55,321 --> 00:01:59,281 Speaker 2: You guys do a lot of your work in supporting 29 00:02:00,201 --> 00:02:04,721 Speaker 2: Polynesian families and people with Polynesian background. 30 00:02:05,121 --> 00:02:06,961 Speaker 4: So when you're when you're speaking. 31 00:02:06,561 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: Of numbers in reference to as someone who has served many, 32 00:02:12,121 --> 00:02:16,601 Speaker 2: many years myself, the islander community is quite a large 33 00:02:16,601 --> 00:02:22,601 Speaker 2: community along next to our indigenous as well. Sorry, just 34 00:02:22,721 --> 00:02:24,801 Speaker 2: I wanted to clear that up just for our listeners 35 00:02:24,841 --> 00:02:25,921 Speaker 2: out there, because. 36 00:02:27,561 --> 00:02:29,481 Speaker 4: I'm sure that they're going to want to know more. 37 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,041 Speaker 3: Yes, so we our project focuses on Pacific Island, those 38 00:02:34,281 --> 00:02:38,321 Speaker 3: of Pacific Island background, because when this was happening to us, 39 00:02:38,641 --> 00:02:42,161 Speaker 3: I was sitting in children's court and watching so many 40 00:02:42,641 --> 00:02:47,401 Speaker 3: Pacific Island kids turn up to court and often times alone. 41 00:02:48,881 --> 00:02:51,401 Speaker 3: And then as I said, you know, my son is 42 00:02:51,441 --> 00:02:56,681 Speaker 3: still incarcerated, he's still in prison in the adult system. 43 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,281 Speaker 3: There are so many when we're visiting him, there are 44 00:03:00,281 --> 00:03:05,161 Speaker 3: so many Pacific Islanders. We found that Pacific Island and 45 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,361 Speaker 3: does make up less than one percent of the New 46 00:03:08,401 --> 00:03:12,641 Speaker 3: South Wales population, but in prisons we make up nearly 47 00:03:12,721 --> 00:03:14,401 Speaker 3: four percent of that population. 48 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,161 Speaker 1: And that's just in adults. 49 00:03:16,441 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 4: How many years has your son done, and how long 50 00:03:19,281 --> 00:03:19,881 Speaker 4: has he got to go? 51 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:27,601 Speaker 3: He's this last stint has been four years, and so 52 00:03:28,161 --> 00:03:29,881 Speaker 3: that was for a time that he committed when he 53 00:03:29,921 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 3: was seventeen. 54 00:03:31,041 --> 00:03:34,761 Speaker 2: So he's gone from say carry On, you'd probably know 55 00:03:34,961 --> 00:03:37,601 Speaker 2: the system better today it used to be when I 56 00:03:37,641 --> 00:03:39,761 Speaker 2: was in the system. He go from carry On or 57 00:03:39,801 --> 00:03:44,561 Speaker 2: something like that into the jail system. So did he know, Well, 58 00:03:44,601 --> 00:03:46,521 Speaker 2: he wouldn't have gone in under the Young Offender's program, 59 00:03:46,521 --> 00:03:46,841 Speaker 2: would he? 60 00:03:47,281 --> 00:03:47,441 Speaker 1: No? 61 00:03:47,841 --> 00:03:49,001 Speaker 4: Does that exist anymore? 62 00:03:50,121 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 3: It does, it does, but not every young person goes 63 00:03:53,921 --> 00:03:59,041 Speaker 3: through that program. He wasn't one of them. He went 64 00:03:59,281 --> 00:04:04,681 Speaker 3: straight from home to Long Bay and then did. 65 00:04:06,601 --> 00:04:08,881 Speaker 1: Two years in Golden. 66 00:04:09,121 --> 00:04:11,161 Speaker 4: Really so they send him straight down to the yards. 67 00:04:11,841 --> 00:04:15,921 Speaker 3: Yes, so he's he's he hasn't done it easy. 68 00:04:16,121 --> 00:04:16,841 Speaker 1: He's not the top. 69 00:04:16,881 --> 00:04:20,201 Speaker 3: He's on his last his last legs now, I mean 70 00:04:20,441 --> 00:04:24,841 Speaker 3: the last few weeks of the sentence of the four years. 71 00:04:26,241 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: So we're looking forward to him coming home. 72 00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:30,761 Speaker 2: So they had him at a B CLASSO pretty well 73 00:04:30,761 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: for the whole sentence. 74 00:04:32,001 --> 00:04:34,801 Speaker 1: Actually, no, he's he's the highest that. 75 00:04:36,561 --> 00:04:41,441 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, Well so did he come under STG. 76 00:04:43,241 --> 00:04:43,561 Speaker 1: Yes? 77 00:04:43,841 --> 00:04:47,401 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that right there, that right there, when 78 00:04:47,401 --> 00:04:51,721 Speaker 2: you talk about STGs is the gang units and for 79 00:04:51,761 --> 00:04:55,081 Speaker 2: those listening out there today in the New South Wales system, 80 00:04:55,601 --> 00:05:01,721 Speaker 2: it's a very strict, regimented program where they basically put 81 00:05:03,081 --> 00:05:06,241 Speaker 2: the guys that don't want to pull the line or 82 00:05:06,361 --> 00:05:11,201 Speaker 2: really don't like vanta what to do or actively involved 83 00:05:11,201 --> 00:05:14,361 Speaker 2: in an activity. It is a separate program from the 84 00:05:14,361 --> 00:05:18,601 Speaker 2: mainstream in the jail and there is a lot of 85 00:05:18,601 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: Olander boys in that. 86 00:05:20,081 --> 00:05:20,321 Speaker 1: Yeah. 87 00:05:21,201 --> 00:05:25,161 Speaker 3: And it's unfortunate because with my son, he as I said, 88 00:05:25,161 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: he was seventeen when he committed this crime, and so 89 00:05:29,081 --> 00:05:34,001 Speaker 3: his affiliations are just that, you know, they're not It's 90 00:05:34,041 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: not that he was part of the gang. He just 91 00:05:36,561 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: simply knew people that knew people. But then going into 92 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: the system, they automatically put him in that box. And 93 00:05:47,241 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: as a seventeen year old and as a mom, that 94 00:05:51,241 --> 00:05:52,121 Speaker 3: is terrifying. 95 00:05:52,841 --> 00:05:57,481 Speaker 2: That's huge, Yeah, that is huge because you know, not 96 00:05:57,561 --> 00:06:00,681 Speaker 2: only can he be pulled under the wing of some 97 00:06:00,721 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: of the the older crew, but he gets put in 98 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,161 Speaker 2: positions where doesn't really have a choice take aside left 99 00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:07,521 Speaker 2: or right. 100 00:06:08,801 --> 00:06:12,641 Speaker 3: Yes, and that's the discussion I've had with his just recently, 101 00:06:12,721 --> 00:06:17,881 Speaker 3: with parole officers and different people you know that are 102 00:06:17,921 --> 00:06:22,721 Speaker 3: in control of his his freedom at the moment. You know, 103 00:06:23,601 --> 00:06:26,921 Speaker 3: they've put him in situations that he's had to that 104 00:06:26,961 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: he hasn't actually had a choice in, and he's he 105 00:06:30,561 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: might have had to do things that he hasn't wanted to, 106 00:06:33,841 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: but it's all part of his survival, absolutely, and it's 107 00:06:38,081 --> 00:06:39,401 Speaker 3: all the politics in the system. 108 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,241 Speaker 2: And this is this is the hardest thing for those 109 00:06:42,281 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: out there that don't understand. You know, not only do 110 00:06:44,841 --> 00:06:48,041 Speaker 2: you just get sentenced to a jail sentence, but it's 111 00:06:48,041 --> 00:06:54,681 Speaker 2: what happens internally that is very dangerous, very political, and 112 00:06:55,081 --> 00:06:59,681 Speaker 2: at any said time can completely flip on you. 113 00:06:59,681 --> 00:07:02,801 Speaker 4: You the one then begin a phone call. 114 00:07:04,481 --> 00:07:07,841 Speaker 2: Saying that you know, either he's been put into a 115 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,321 Speaker 2: maximum security unit where he visits a stripped or access 116 00:07:12,321 --> 00:07:16,721 Speaker 2: to everything stripped back on behavioral programs, and it may 117 00:07:16,761 --> 00:07:18,881 Speaker 2: be just something that kicked off that he just happened 118 00:07:18,881 --> 00:07:20,441 Speaker 2: to be in the yard, or you know it didn't 119 00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:21,801 Speaker 2: actually be involved in. 120 00:07:21,881 --> 00:07:23,241 Speaker 4: Or it could be somebody setting. 121 00:07:23,001 --> 00:07:25,921 Speaker 2: A little letter to the screws saying they feel threatened 122 00:07:26,001 --> 00:07:31,161 Speaker 2: or intimidated by him. Yes, obviously these are the things 123 00:07:31,201 --> 00:07:35,521 Speaker 2: that have occurred that must be hard on you though, 124 00:07:35,921 --> 00:07:39,681 Speaker 2: and it's good because I so actually think the first 125 00:07:39,721 --> 00:07:41,801 Speaker 2: time in one hundred and twenty four episodes that I've 126 00:07:41,801 --> 00:07:47,001 Speaker 2: had a mum who currently has a loved one or 127 00:07:47,001 --> 00:07:49,761 Speaker 2: a child or a young person which is a young 128 00:07:49,801 --> 00:07:53,601 Speaker 2: adult in custody. So thank you for being here to 129 00:07:53,641 --> 00:07:55,721 Speaker 2: share this, because this is something that I think would 130 00:07:55,721 --> 00:07:59,601 Speaker 2: give a lot of other people insight to what you're experiencing. 131 00:08:00,601 --> 00:08:03,161 Speaker 1: No, you're welcome. I mean, that's what the whole program 132 00:08:03,241 --> 00:08:03,641 Speaker 1: is about. 133 00:08:05,441 --> 00:08:09,121 Speaker 3: Going through it with my son, we realize there are 134 00:08:09,201 --> 00:08:13,201 Speaker 3: so many moms, there are so many wives partners out 135 00:08:13,201 --> 00:08:16,361 Speaker 3: there that are doing this on their own. I mean 136 00:08:16,481 --> 00:08:20,761 Speaker 3: I went through initially when he went in, I had 137 00:08:20,841 --> 00:08:23,521 Speaker 3: went through my own depression. I felt like such a 138 00:08:23,521 --> 00:08:27,361 Speaker 3: failure as a parent, because you know, you don't raise 139 00:08:27,441 --> 00:08:32,081 Speaker 3: your children in thinking that they would ever end up 140 00:08:32,121 --> 00:08:36,241 Speaker 3: in a situation like this. Yeah, and so you do 141 00:08:36,321 --> 00:08:40,001 Speaker 3: you feel like such a failure. You feel like there 142 00:08:40,081 --> 00:08:42,561 Speaker 3: was something that I did, you know, or didn't do 143 00:08:44,641 --> 00:08:47,161 Speaker 3: for him that got him to where he was. And 144 00:08:47,201 --> 00:08:52,001 Speaker 3: it took a lot of soul searching to realize, you know, 145 00:08:52,121 --> 00:08:55,881 Speaker 3: he he made his own decisions, whether they be good 146 00:08:56,001 --> 00:08:59,121 Speaker 3: or bad. You know, if he's got to deal with 147 00:08:59,161 --> 00:09:02,281 Speaker 3: the consequences of those. And so the other thing that 148 00:09:02,361 --> 00:09:04,441 Speaker 3: I like to say about the program is it's not 149 00:09:04,601 --> 00:09:09,721 Speaker 3: condone behaviors or wrong decisions, but it's about saying. 150 00:09:09,641 --> 00:09:10,601 Speaker 4: That's not all. 151 00:09:11,161 --> 00:09:15,321 Speaker 3: That's not all that he's about. He's much more than that. 152 00:09:16,641 --> 00:09:18,641 Speaker 1: I know, I raised him. 153 00:09:18,961 --> 00:09:22,361 Speaker 3: And the fact that the system continues to hold people 154 00:09:22,441 --> 00:09:25,241 Speaker 3: to that one moment in their lives or that one 155 00:09:25,321 --> 00:09:29,321 Speaker 3: season that that just doesn't sit right with me. 156 00:09:29,961 --> 00:09:32,441 Speaker 2: The system and I say this often, and I mean 157 00:09:32,481 --> 00:09:35,481 Speaker 2: people can say, oh, yeah, you just bitter, but the 158 00:09:35,521 --> 00:09:40,561 Speaker 2: system is designed to fail. Yeah, there is no win you. 159 00:09:42,081 --> 00:09:44,401 Speaker 2: Reality is, you don't get an there and get rehabilitated, 160 00:09:45,361 --> 00:09:48,801 Speaker 2: you walk a very very lonely road. If you choose 161 00:09:48,881 --> 00:09:51,761 Speaker 2: to do your own time, which is what we all 162 00:09:51,801 --> 00:09:55,361 Speaker 2: try to do in there, but without doubt, you're going 163 00:09:55,401 --> 00:09:58,161 Speaker 2: to get dragged into someone's politics sooner or later, especially 164 00:09:58,161 --> 00:10:00,681 Speaker 2: when you're doing time and I mean years. It's just 165 00:10:01,921 --> 00:10:04,201 Speaker 2: you can't beat it. You know, You've only got to 166 00:10:04,201 --> 00:10:06,241 Speaker 2: be two hour with someone that's got a drama with 167 00:10:06,321 --> 00:10:08,361 Speaker 2: someone and the next minute becomes your drama because he's 168 00:10:08,361 --> 00:10:11,441 Speaker 2: a selly, you know, or somebody comes in off the 169 00:10:11,481 --> 00:10:13,801 Speaker 2: street and makes an allegation, and you know it doesn't 170 00:10:13,841 --> 00:10:15,281 Speaker 2: back it up with something, you know what I mean. 171 00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:17,641 Speaker 2: These are the tiny little things that can kick off 172 00:10:17,681 --> 00:10:20,641 Speaker 2: and it just changes everything. You know, someone can come 173 00:10:20,681 --> 00:10:23,561 Speaker 2: in as young as your son is. Next minute, he 174 00:10:23,641 --> 00:10:25,681 Speaker 2: may have to defend himself. It could end up in 175 00:10:25,801 --> 00:10:29,041 Speaker 2: a stabbing or a death in there, and you know, 176 00:10:29,241 --> 00:10:32,521 Speaker 2: a young man's life is done. He's spending the next 177 00:10:32,561 --> 00:10:36,681 Speaker 2: ten to twenty years in there. You know, I don't 178 00:10:36,681 --> 00:10:41,081 Speaker 2: think people understand the true realities of how hard it 179 00:10:41,241 --> 00:10:43,881 Speaker 2: is in there, and that there is no there's no structure, 180 00:10:43,921 --> 00:10:45,961 Speaker 2: there's no support networks, there's nothing. 181 00:10:46,401 --> 00:10:49,561 Speaker 3: No And I guess that that is the other thing 182 00:10:49,641 --> 00:10:52,561 Speaker 3: about the program. Like I was saying earlier, we make 183 00:10:52,681 --> 00:10:55,801 Speaker 3: up in a very small percentage of the population in 184 00:10:55,841 --> 00:10:58,681 Speaker 3: New South Wales, but a very large one in prison. 185 00:10:59,441 --> 00:11:02,321 Speaker 3: But the thing that shocked me going through the system 186 00:11:02,361 --> 00:11:05,481 Speaker 3: with my son is that even though we makes up 187 00:11:05,521 --> 00:11:09,041 Speaker 3: but make up such a large proportion of the prison population, 188 00:11:09,521 --> 00:11:13,921 Speaker 3: there are no services for Pacific Islanders. There are no 189 00:11:14,081 --> 00:11:17,041 Speaker 3: rehabilitation programs for them. 190 00:11:17,881 --> 00:11:22,001 Speaker 1: They're just put out into community again. 191 00:11:22,641 --> 00:11:25,201 Speaker 3: And I really do believe that, having gone through this 192 00:11:25,641 --> 00:11:29,081 Speaker 3: myself with my son, is that it is set up 193 00:11:29,321 --> 00:11:29,801 Speaker 3: to fail. 194 00:11:30,081 --> 00:11:30,841 Speaker 1: For them to fail. 195 00:11:32,801 --> 00:11:36,321 Speaker 3: If they don't want people going through the system, they 196 00:11:36,321 --> 00:11:42,081 Speaker 3: will create avenues for change. But trying to find help 197 00:11:42,121 --> 00:11:44,321 Speaker 3: for my son when he the last time he was 198 00:11:44,361 --> 00:11:51,561 Speaker 3: out was so difficult, and I really believe that, you know, 199 00:11:51,601 --> 00:11:53,801 Speaker 3: there was a gap that we needed to feel. And 200 00:11:53,841 --> 00:11:56,641 Speaker 3: that's what we try to do. We try and come 201 00:11:56,641 --> 00:12:01,441 Speaker 3: alongside people coming home and also the families in a 202 00:12:01,481 --> 00:12:03,801 Speaker 3: cultural kind of context, what. 203 00:12:04,161 --> 00:12:07,961 Speaker 2: Sort of things are you actually doing you allowed into 204 00:12:08,001 --> 00:12:11,681 Speaker 2: the systems. Do you have representatives who are actually physically 205 00:12:11,681 --> 00:12:13,921 Speaker 2: allowed to go into the jails or is it more 206 00:12:14,001 --> 00:12:17,481 Speaker 2: from the outside sort of you know, helping the families 207 00:12:17,521 --> 00:12:17,921 Speaker 2: and so on. 208 00:12:18,081 --> 00:12:19,601 Speaker 4: I mean, how hard has it been for you. 209 00:12:20,081 --> 00:12:21,041 Speaker 1: At the moment? 210 00:12:21,481 --> 00:12:27,161 Speaker 3: Our largest, our biggest program is the family program. As 211 00:12:27,201 --> 00:12:28,881 Speaker 3: I said, you know, there are a lot of us. 212 00:12:29,001 --> 00:12:31,481 Speaker 3: Last night we had an event and when I was 213 00:12:31,521 --> 00:12:35,761 Speaker 3: talking about the statistics, I said, because of how the 214 00:12:35,801 --> 00:12:39,721 Speaker 3: statistics are set up, it means that every single person, 215 00:12:39,841 --> 00:12:43,881 Speaker 3: every Pacific islander in New South Wales knows someone or 216 00:12:43,921 --> 00:12:47,921 Speaker 3: has someone in the system, every single one of us. 217 00:12:47,641 --> 00:12:49,321 Speaker 1: That's staggering. 218 00:12:50,001 --> 00:12:53,721 Speaker 3: So the fact that our family program is the largest, 219 00:12:54,201 --> 00:12:55,521 Speaker 3: that makes sense to me. 220 00:12:56,561 --> 00:12:58,161 Speaker 1: We are currently. 221 00:12:57,841 --> 00:13:02,841 Speaker 3: In Vilable Detention Center, you know, funnily enough, where about 222 00:13:03,121 --> 00:13:09,001 Speaker 3: We're almost ninety percent of that population in Villawood. 223 00:13:08,521 --> 00:13:10,601 Speaker 4: Detention, all the five O ones. 224 00:13:10,761 --> 00:13:14,441 Speaker 1: Yes them are Pacific Islanders. 225 00:13:15,001 --> 00:13:15,561 Speaker 4: Good lord. 226 00:13:15,961 --> 00:13:20,641 Speaker 3: Yes, so we're in there, but getting into correctional facilities has. 227 00:13:20,561 --> 00:13:23,041 Speaker 1: Been really, really hard. 228 00:13:25,081 --> 00:13:29,681 Speaker 3: Yes, we're in discussions at the moment, but it's been difficult.