Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back with more questions for Gary from
Speaker 2: the fans. Gary. Here's one from Brian Gary. Is it
Speaker 2: true that you only got into podcasting because you wanted
Speaker 2: to show people that you actually do know how to
Speaker 2: legally record people speaking.
Speaker 1: I like there is an irony to it, but I
Speaker 1: lost my career in policing because I was recording conversations,
Speaker 1: and now I do it for a living. I've got
Speaker 1: to say I still maintain I wasn't capable of recording
Speaker 1: recording conversations on my phone about someone showing me how
Speaker 1: to but.
Speaker 2: The irony you got a whole team.
Speaker 1: Lookt I used to record on this a telephone and
Speaker 1: now look what I've got camera. Yeah, yeah, I learned
Speaker 1: from my mistakes.
Speaker 2: Obviously. That was one of the questions I wrote in there.
Speaker 2: I pretended to be one of the fans, just for
Speaker 2: a bit of fun. But here's a real one from Jade.
Speaker 2: Why were you called crazy fuck? I heard you referred
Speaker 2: to this on the William Tyrrell podcast. Was that a
Speaker 2: nickname of yours? Yes? It was. I see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it as a term of endearment. Well
Speaker 1: that's how I tried to explain to my kids when
Speaker 1: that first became public. Outside the people that called me
Speaker 1: crazy fuck that I worked with, and I don't know why,
Speaker 1: just the irony of it. I suppose I was so
Speaker 1: straight and normal. But my good mate Jason, he takes
Speaker 1: great pride in initiating me crazy fucking. You know, if
Speaker 1: you get a nickname, you can't react to it because
Speaker 1: if you react to it, and he could see that
Speaker 1: it irked me a little bit, so he's stuck with it,
Speaker 1: and he'd introduced me when we go to a homicide,
Speaker 1: a fresh homicide, this is a boss, crazy fucking roll
Speaker 1: his eyes and give it to me for a bit
Speaker 1: of laughter.
Speaker 2: But on Underbelly.
Speaker 1: It came out in Underbelly and I'm trying to explain
Speaker 1: to my kids, why why do they call you crazy fuck?
Speaker 1: And I'm going, ah, they're just joking.
Speaker 2: But look, I think we need somebody in that was
Speaker 2: involved with the actual generation of this name to see
Speaker 2: whether there's a backstory here that you're not telling us.
Speaker 1: I think the backstory is Jason always reckons, this is funny.
Speaker 1: This is the dynamics of a homicide team, and it
Speaker 1: was some of my favorite times in policing. I'd just
Speaker 1: become a sergeant. You've got to pick a team. I've
Speaker 1: got Jason and he was a mate though work with
Speaker 1: on barable and a funny guy, and he'd played the
Speaker 1: I'd be the straight guy to he's funny guy. He
Speaker 1: always reckons, he's funnier than I am, and I gave
Speaker 1: a more situational humor than you are. But he was
Speaker 1: a loudmouth. I'm the introvert. And then we had Nigel,
Speaker 1: who was a good mate of ours. Nigel was a
Speaker 1: technical skills. We knew that because they're just bringing in
Speaker 1: all these computers and I'm saying that Jason, we need
Speaker 1: someone that understands computers, and he's gone, what about Nigel?
Speaker 1: Perfect name. So we'd rock up and this is serious.
Speaker 1: At the first briefing the homicide, we'd rock up and
Speaker 1: the team would be introduced. This is the boss. Crazy fuck,
Speaker 1: he's a serious one. Jason wud be saying, I'm the
Speaker 1: funny one. I do the humor, I've got the personality,
Speaker 1: and Nigel's a nerd. And that was a breakup of
Speaker 1: the breakup of the team, but it was a perfect
Speaker 1: We complemented each other.
Speaker 2: Were you happy with how you were trayed in Underbelly?
Speaker 2: Obviously they went for an actor, Matte Nabel that's much
Speaker 2: better looking than you. Obviously, so they've done you a
Speaker 2: solid there. But you what do you say? Well, I'm
Speaker 2: just saying, come on, they've done you.
Speaker 1: All right, all right. It's a good style of a blake.
Speaker 1: Even my mum said she prefers Matt the meat. She
Speaker 1: was watching it. Look, Matt, Matt is a really good
Speaker 1: made of mind. We've come close from that. We met
Speaker 1: before the Underbelly thing, and the writers put us together
Speaker 1: and we just clicked right from the start. And good
Speaker 1: friend really talented, Like it's just he's an inspirational type
Speaker 1: of guy, and we catch up a fair bit. It's
Speaker 1: funny when I catch up with Matt and when the
Speaker 1: Underbelly series was playing, or around that time or shortly after,
Speaker 1: we'd be out for a drink and people had come
Speaker 1: up to him and start talking about how they love
Speaker 1: the character he portrays in Underbelly, Gary Jubilin And I'm
Speaker 1: just sitting there as just this mister anonymous, just nobody
Speaker 1: cares about you back and then when they walk away again,
Speaker 1: I'm the fucking real GARYT not you. But look, it
Speaker 1: was good and it sort of.
Speaker 2: I'm proud of.
Speaker 1: What we did on the called the Underbelly Investigation. It
Speaker 1: was Strikeforce Tuno, but it was a big investigation ram
Speaker 1: for ten years. We busted our asses on it and
Speaker 1: we got some really good results. I'm proud of it,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to think it inspires people, Look, look
Speaker 1: what you can do in the policing. And I think
Speaker 1: they represented the nuances of an investigation the highs, the
Speaker 1: layers of pressures that sort of come with that type
Speaker 1: of investigation.
Speaker 2: And that case evolved with the murder of Terry falcon I. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about that, because when you're
Speaker 2: investigating the murder of someone who is a drug dealer,
Speaker 2: or even versus someone who's civilian, or even in the
Speaker 2: murder of a kid dies, it affect how passionate you
Speaker 2: are about the investigation.
Speaker 1: Look when you look at the Terrys, Terry's situation, he
Speaker 1: had served time in prison, he was on day release.
Speaker 1: He was abducted by people purporting to be the cops,
Speaker 1: dressed as detectives and in uniform, and then his body
Speaker 1: was cut up and he was hung up on a
Speaker 1: hook and his body was cut up, his teeth, foot
Speaker 1: pulled out, and it was a horrendous crime. No one
Speaker 1: deserves to die like that. I know his family, and
Speaker 1: you speak to his family. Yeah, dad had his faults,
Speaker 1: but they loved him. And so it's not hard to
Speaker 1: get motivation. And I think sometimes people assume, ah, well,
Speaker 1: it's just bad guys killing bad guys. What I found
Speaker 1: in organized crime that if you let it run too long,
Speaker 1: innocent people get caught up in it when there's the
Speaker 1: biky walls and stuff like that, so you can still
Speaker 1: go after it with the same passion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you see that the news all the
Speaker 2: time now with the Middle East and gang shooting each other,
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, well, if it's just got, if
Speaker 2: it's just internal, who cares.
Speaker 1: And look another way? And this is the cops side
Speaker 1: of me looking at it too. You put us in
Speaker 1: charge of an investigation like that, you uncover other crimes.
Speaker 1: It's a win win situation. You're solving the murder, but
Speaker 1: you're also putting people out of action that otherwise would
Speaker 1: have kept kept going.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously everyone's glad that I'm not a cop myself,
Speaker 2: including myself, but I would find if I was in
Speaker 2: charge of investigating the murder of a pedophile. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think I'd probably feel like I'm phoning it in versus
Speaker 2: if it was a missing child or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I do understand that, and it must be cops would
Speaker 2: have that mentality, have that mentality.
Speaker 1: But I think you said a bad precedent. If you go, okay,
Speaker 1: well we'll put resources in there. I see it, and
Speaker 1: I'll flip it a little bit proper. Resources weren't put
Speaker 1: into the bar of all investigation because the three Aboriginal kids,
Speaker 1: and you know, the families told me people don't care.
Speaker 1: I didn't believe them, but I believe it. Believe it
Speaker 1: now the time. Then you look at the whim turial matter,
Speaker 1: which obviously I'm heavily linked to, and the resources that
Speaker 1: get put in there. I think we've got to look
Speaker 1: at it from a policing point of view. All lives,
Speaker 1: all lives matters. And if you let the gangsters start
Speaker 1: shooting themselves, see how it's become more brazen. Before the
Speaker 1: gangsters used to disappear like Terry. Terry was meant to
Speaker 1: disappear and his body wasn't meant to come to the surface.
Speaker 2: Now it's broad daylight and a car park.
Speaker 1: And they're making statements and yeah, with that, it's only
Speaker 1: a matter of time before innocent people are caught up
Speaker 1: in it. So you can't have that sort of lawlessness.
Speaker 1: But I do get what you're saying. And people when
Speaker 1: there are children involved, like children make it harder. That's
Speaker 1: heavier because it's just such a sad tragedy. Someone's anyone
Speaker 1: losing their life. But when young child loss, loss of innocence,
Speaker 1: life before them, and that life's taken away. It's a
Speaker 1: tragic situation.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about strike Force Tuno because
Speaker 2: I had to look it up. Tuno is the vegan
Speaker 2: alternative for tuna, That's what it is. Yeah, who's coming
Speaker 2: up with these shit stroke Force names?
Speaker 1: You don't believe in Vegan?
Speaker 2: I think there was another one. You're involved in, strike
Speaker 2: Force Roseanne. Yeah, And I'm just my concern is there's
Speaker 2: too many ship strike force names. What about strike force
Speaker 2: leaping panther Okay, like strike Force roaring line or a
Speaker 2: rampaging elephant from a crim And I'm like, hold on,
Speaker 2: oh no, I'll be investigated by strike Force. It gives
Speaker 2: a little fish.
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. But the very thing that
Speaker 1: you're saying is the reason why we had to take
Speaker 1: it away from the police. So their random name, so
Speaker 1: it's on the computer. Then you log in, you're setting
Speaker 1: up a strike force, and a name spits out the
Speaker 1: reason why they had to take it away from that,
Speaker 1: because the raging panther like Strikeforce would be you know,
Speaker 1: you can't, you can't.
Speaker 2: It's just too many of you. Yeah, it's too confusing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if they are after you the magic mushroom, you
Speaker 1: can't call Strike Force Magic Mushroom cops. And I think
Speaker 1: there was one that was Operation Target and the crook
Speaker 1: got shot and killed. Now that doesn't look good when
Speaker 1: you're in the coroner, scot how did Well? It wasn't.
Speaker 1: It's just a pure coincidence. So that's how the names
Speaker 1: I always because you've got to type them so much too.
Speaker 1: I like the short ones, like I like Tuno because
Speaker 1: it's you've got to type that name so many times.
Speaker 2: Well, so it's randomly generated. But who's created this algorithm?
Speaker 2: Because it seems like that there's room for a happy
Speaker 2: middle ground where they it's out a little bit tougher.
Speaker 1: Well, you know how you complain to the governor at
Speaker 1: the prison, Maybe maybe you could pull the pull the
Speaker 1: leather into the police commission.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to just do you guys are solid because
Speaker 2: if you're there trying to rouse the troops like, hey, guys,
Speaker 2: this is a very serious investigation. Strike Force Tuno, do
Speaker 2: you reckon?
Speaker 1: That's why it took us ten years to catch those guys,
Speaker 1: because we got Strike Force Tunos after you and they've gone.
Speaker 2: The excited to get up of the morning. Yeah, what
Speaker 2: are you working on, babe?
Speaker 1: Well, strike force Tuna. Maybe the tone, but yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well take your point. We might put that in the
Speaker 1: suggestion box.
Speaker 2: Here's a question from Lisa. If you had to choose
Speaker 2: any detective to solve a murder, who would you choose
Speaker 2: and why? I guess it doesn't say whether they have
Speaker 2: to be real or fiction.
Speaker 1: Look, I'll pick the real ones. There's some detectives that
Speaker 1: I have utmost respect for mentors that I had that
Speaker 1: I worked with.
Speaker 2: Paul Jacob.
Speaker 1: I served him the apprenticeship under him. He taught me, taught
Speaker 1: me so much and I know, like the passion and
Speaker 1: dedication that he has on my when he's on an investigation.
Speaker 1: I can't emphasize how much how much he taught me.
Speaker 1: Pam Young, who I work within homicide for years but
Speaker 1: also lived with for years, and she was people ask
Speaker 1: who's the toughest copy New South Wales? And I gave
Speaker 1: Pam because she was tough mentally in that and she
Speaker 1: was smart and she would be good one to be
Speaker 1: on the investigation. Charlie Berzina, homicide detective from Victoria, a
Speaker 1: fairly high profile He's another one that when I say
Speaker 1: I've worked with Charlie. We didn't work so much when
Speaker 1: we were in the cops because he's down in Victoria.
Speaker 1: But we've worked on the had a look at a
Speaker 1: couple of investigations since we've been out of the cops.
Speaker 1: And his attention to detail, he's passionate, and yeah, his
Speaker 1: empathy for the victims. They're the type of people I
Speaker 1: want on the investigation. And there's some Look, there's some
Speaker 1: great cops still in there.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: What worries me that you learn? It's every day I
Speaker 1: came to the homicide I learned, and the last day
Speaker 1: I was there, I'm learning, don't record a conversation on
Speaker 1: your telephone. Who would have thought, But you're learning all
Speaker 1: the time. You need good mentors and they create good detectives.
Speaker 1: But they're the type of people that I want, and
Speaker 1: people that care, people that genuinely care and roll this
Speaker 1: leaves up and get the job done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would.
Speaker 1: I would joke sometimes that give me a detective, destroy
Speaker 1: their personal life and then you've got them fully committed
Speaker 1: and not worried about anything else.
Speaker 2: But having said that's the recruiter post.
Speaker 1: I think that, Yeah, you're not a true detective until
Speaker 1: you've had a divorce. Having said that, there's some great
Speaker 1: detectives that have been able to do their work because
Speaker 1: they've been in good relationships too, So it's give and take.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we used to joke a joke about that,
Speaker 1: you're not really a detective until your divorce.
Speaker 2: You're talking about these hot shots that kind of come in,
Speaker 2: but then they lose they lose attention, they want to
Speaker 2: go onto the next thing in a short time frame.
Speaker 2: How do you when a case is kind of dragging out,
Speaker 2: how do you maintain the focus and the passion for it. Well,
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people that do.
Speaker 1: That's why I look for those slow burners the ones
Speaker 1: that do, And I get frustrated with people that there
Speaker 1: for the good times, and the good times at the
Speaker 1: early stage is the exciting part of getting the breakthroughs
Speaker 1: and all that, and then when the gone, they want
Speaker 1: to walk away, and they're the people I don't respect
Speaker 1: and the people I get frustrated with. And because of
Speaker 1: some of the investigations I've had, they've been very long term,
Speaker 1: Like I'm doing short term ones in between, but long
Speaker 1: term investigations and the ones that stick with those long
Speaker 1: term investigations. They're the ones that have got my total respect,
Speaker 1: because there's not much reward when you're like the Falcon,
Speaker 1: the one that was ten years, like ten years, you know,
Speaker 1: short term satisfaction. You think, okay, start here, it's ten
Speaker 1: years down the track before we get together a result.
Speaker 1: You got to burn, and there's a slow burn, and
Speaker 1: you've got to be committed. You've got to be focused,
Speaker 1: and you've got to believe in what you're doing.
Speaker 2: I think there's probably another detective you did lift or
Speaker 2: leave off that wish list, which is my mum, Ronnie Hamilton.
Speaker 2: Would have been a great addition. Right. There's another question
Speaker 2: here from Elaine Hi. Gary, another question from me. You
Speaker 2: mentioned a few times on your one of your favorit
Speaker 2: of books as mind Hunter by John Douglas. Can you
Speaker 2: share any of your other favorite.
Speaker 1: Books that mind Hunter? Explain why I enjoyed mind Hunt.
Speaker 2: I've seen the TV series.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we had, yeah, you know the female leading
Speaker 1: that show, doctor An Burgess, fascinating lady and we're having
Speaker 1: her on the podcast later. But John Douglas and the
Speaker 1: mind Hunter, and I don't think it in the mind
Speaker 1: Hunter TV series it was credited with John Hunter, a
Speaker 1: different different name, but this was the start of criminal
Speaker 1: profiling in the FBI early days, and they learned that
Speaker 1: by speaking to serial killers and finding out what made
Speaker 1: them tick. I read that book and my mentor that
Speaker 1: I attribute to be my mentor, Paul Jacob. I was
Speaker 1: re reading the book when I was a young homicide detecting.
Speaker 1: We'd go there and I'd be talking on the way
Speaker 1: of the crime scene, what would John Douglas do here?
Speaker 1: And just had some fascinating insights into the way approach
Speaker 1: approached homicide. In regards to other books I read, I
Speaker 1: used to read read fiction, but I've sort of gone off,
Speaker 1: gone off fiction books and non fictions. I like memoirs,
Speaker 1: that type of thing. I like to take something from
Speaker 1: a book, learn a little bit. I don't overload on
Speaker 1: crime books. Sometimes I read them, sometimes I don't. But
Speaker 1: when you're living at day to day, it's not really
Speaker 1: the relaxation. So I like a little bit of escapism.
Speaker 2: I'm finding it funny because I had a book come
Speaker 2: out in August and it's in bookstores and at the
Speaker 2: airport seeing my face in the true crime section, and
Speaker 2: it's all these murder stories and it's just some stupid
Speaker 2: story about a guy who was a mushroom dealer for
Speaker 2: fifteen years.
Speaker 1: It's okay, well, I'll confess to I look to see
Speaker 1: if my book is in the airport.
Speaker 2: You've got to check, Gary, you go, you got to check.
Speaker 2: You pick it up and look.
Speaker 1: I was standing behind someone that was flicking through through
Speaker 1: my book and then they put it back, and I
Speaker 1: felt like I wanted to object. I object put it back,
Speaker 1: but no, congratulations, you've got got the book out, Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'll look for I was probably just looking for my book.
Speaker 2: Not one of these days I'll be sitting next to yours. Gary.
Speaker 2: So yeah, keep an eye out, but they won't ever
Speaker 2: want anyone needs a stocking filler. The Profound Benefits of
Speaker 2: a stint in prison. It's funny seeing it because sometimes
Speaker 2: it's in true crime, sometimes it's in nonfictional biography, but
Speaker 2: I make it could also be in the how to section.
Speaker 2: I think as long as they put it in fiction.
Speaker 2: A couple of my mates have been putting it in
Speaker 2: the fiction section just to piss take me, but oh,
Speaker 2: here we go. Yeah, this is from Alisha. It's a
Speaker 2: two parter. So Alisha's brother has been murdered, and questions,
Speaker 2: how do I have faith that the police will find
Speaker 2: my brother's killer.
Speaker 1: It's a question that gets us a lot, and since
Speaker 1: I've left the police, the amount of calls I get
Speaker 1: from people that were concerned about is this being investigated properly?
Speaker 1: And that Sometimes I'll have a deep dive into it
Speaker 1: and make suggestions. Other times I say that the families,
Speaker 1: your responsibility for it is just how the police you deserve.
Speaker 1: The police are there to serve the public. If you've
Speaker 1: reported a crime, what's happening with that investigation? Don't let
Speaker 1: them bullshit you and fob you off. You've got the
Speaker 1: right to know. I think the police are becoming more
Speaker 1: aware of that in regards to that than if she's listening,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you're going through that. I would make
Speaker 1: contact with the person that's running the investigation, got responsibility
Speaker 1: for the investigation and ask for updates.
Speaker 2: What's the training that you guys get in terms of
Speaker 2: the messaging around that to set expectations because there's a
Speaker 2: huge burden on you in terms of what you say
Speaker 2: to them.
Speaker 1: We've got I know in New South Wales and I'm
Speaker 1: assuming in other law enforcement areas or other states. Quite
Speaker 1: often you have a victim liaison officer appointed on the strikeforce. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're on my strike force, I might be the boss.
Speaker 1: I can't speak to the victim all the time. I
Speaker 1: might the point you keep the families informed, and that's
Speaker 1: the point of contact. I can't stress enough for you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully if there's any police listening to this, how much
Speaker 1: it's respected by the victims. If you make yourself available,
Speaker 1: like here's my phone number, you contact me anytime and
Speaker 1: we can talk through it. These are grieving people.
Speaker 2: You've got to know.
Speaker 1: If you're going to be responsible for investigating the murder
Speaker 1: of someone, put yourself out there and make yourself.
Speaker 2: Available to the people.
Speaker 1: But in regards to that situation, i'd make contact and
Speaker 1: just ask for updates. I think that's you're not asking
Speaker 1: too much. One thing Andrew that I was taught and
Speaker 1: it was Courtney topics as parents. Courtney was shot by
Speaker 1: police and that was a tragic situation. She was going
Speaker 1: through a mental health episode and walk out of Hungry
Speaker 1: Jack's carrying a knife and she was shot and killed
Speaker 1: by police. I was in charge of running that investigation.
Speaker 1: A critical incident investigation to see if it was justified.
Speaker 1: And I spoke to the family initially and I left
Speaker 1: them my number, and then it was a couple of
Speaker 1: months later they've phoned up and they've unleashed on me.
Speaker 1: The grandfather is unleashed on. We haven't heard from you
Speaker 1: where my granddaughter's been killed. You haven't spoken the family.
Speaker 1: And I apologized profusely and said, look, you had my number.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to phone you. We're working on it.
Speaker 1: It's not a cover up, we're working on it. And
Speaker 1: I thought you'd contacted me. I felt so bad about it.
Speaker 1: I got in the car and drove out to their place.
Speaker 1: It was on the weekend. Apologize, sat down in the
Speaker 1: kitchen with them, and they told me how upset they were,
Speaker 1: and they made the point that we don't deal with
Speaker 1: the police a lot, and well, we never deal with
Speaker 1: the police, and this was the first interaction we've had
Speaker 1: with the police, and the police have shot and killed
Speaker 1: our daughter, and we didn't think we could actually pick
Speaker 1: the phone up and phone the detective inspector. And I
Speaker 1: was embarrassed from my misunderstanding.
Speaker 2: Of the situation.
Speaker 1: And it taught me a lot that the public don't
Speaker 1: think they can trouble the police. But I'm saying you
Speaker 1: can trouble the police. They're public servants.
Speaker 2: There's the second partner's question from Elisia, which was, how
Speaker 2: can my family grieve without having answers as to why
Speaker 2: my brother was killed? I guess does that go back
Speaker 2: to having that commerson calling the police and having that
Speaker 2: conversation as well.
Speaker 1: It's keeping contact with the police and find out what's happening.
Speaker 1: I use the word closure once when I was talking
Speaker 1: to a family member in homicide and they jumped on
Speaker 1: me and said, this doesn't give this closure. That you
Speaker 1: don't get closure from murder. So I've taken that word
Speaker 1: out of the narrative that if I'm speaking to we'll
Speaker 1: get your closure. I understand that they want answers, and
Speaker 1: it's very hard to think you can't have answers. I
Speaker 1: think they can get some solace in the fact if
Speaker 1: they know the police have done everything possible. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine how family feels if they well, I can imagine
Speaker 1: because I've seen it time and time again, families that
Speaker 1: I've dealt with where the police haven't done everything possible
Speaker 1: to find their loved one and it infuriates them, it
Speaker 1: upsets them, it keeps that pain running. So the reality
Speaker 1: of the world is that not every murder will be solved.
Speaker 1: But if you know that the people responsible for finding
Speaker 1: out who's murthered you love one have done everything humanly possible,
Speaker 1: it makes it that little bit easier. I think so.
Speaker 1: And the pain that people go through when they can't
Speaker 1: find the bodies of their loved one. And I've seen
Speaker 1: that Colin Walker, one of the Bearable Children, we haven't
Speaker 1: found her body, and that traumatizes thirty almost thirty years
Speaker 1: down the track, still traumatizing, traumatizing the family, Matthew Levison's
Speaker 1: family for ten years. On weekends they go to the
Speaker 1: National Park with a pick and shovel and just dig
Speaker 1: around the National Park looking for the body. That's the
Speaker 1: type of pain we're talking about.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you can't want to know, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You want that want that understanding of what happens. So
Speaker 1: if police understand the impact, I think they'll do the
Speaker 1: right job. You've got to have empathy. I think that's
Speaker 1: a and all the good detectives that I know. And
Speaker 1: it's funny when I sit down and speak to people
Speaker 1: I look up to and they talk. You know, what's
Speaker 1: a trade of a good detective empathy And it's a
Speaker 1: simple thing, but it's so important.
Speaker 2: Sure, but I think you know a lot of people.
Speaker 2: You get into the police force and you might sign
Speaker 2: up through a job, but then you don't realize that
Speaker 2: all these other bits are the moving parts of it.
Speaker 2: You know, you're almost trying to be a counselor or
Speaker 2: a therapist on the side actually trying to catch the killer.
Speaker 1: Well that and I've seen people that have gone too
Speaker 1: far that way, Like I've had people that have been
Speaker 1: what the families want. I think they want a hard
Speaker 1: ass homicide detectives that's going to go go for the killer.
Speaker 1: And I've had to pull some people back that they
Speaker 1: get too emotionally involved with the family. And you want
Speaker 1: to help that family. You work as hard as you
Speaker 1: can to find the killer that will bring comfort. So
Speaker 1: that it's that fine line. But you've got to keep
Speaker 1: the lines of communication open because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: trust that families put in you if you're investigating a murder.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're not there to be a social worker.
Speaker 1: You've got to be ruthless in the way that you
Speaker 1: go to solve the solve the crime.
Speaker 2: All this stuff you're talking about with with wind Hunter,
Speaker 2: and there's obviously huge growth in understanding criminal psychology. Where
Speaker 2: are the are there areas that are kind of the
Speaker 2: new ground in terms of policing, that are the hot
Speaker 2: the hot topics. I mean, yeah, I don't even know how.
Speaker 2: If I was still drug dealing now, it would be
Speaker 2: so much harder because there's no ATMs where well, who's
Speaker 2: paying cash for drugs anymore?
Speaker 1: I've wondered. I've wondered that because I wouldn't know about
Speaker 1: the drug industry, but I've often wondered, like, how do
Speaker 1: you go score from your dealer? Do you have a
Speaker 1: card machine?
Speaker 2: Because I don't want to leave it it's getting hard
Speaker 2: or four years ago, so I know, now, what would
Speaker 2: you do? Yeah, you'd have to have a square reader
Speaker 2: plus machine. But there's so too much for a paper trailer.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but everything, everything leaves a trail, like
Speaker 1: it really does. I get in the car to go
Speaker 1: to the gym in the morning, the phone's telling me
Speaker 1: how far I'm away from the place I'm going to.
Speaker 1: And then yesterday I got in the car and normally
Speaker 1: I go to a licensed premises on that particular day.
Speaker 1: It said, I'm five minutes away from this particular particular place,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, oh god, I got to check this phone.
Speaker 2: There was an amazing story a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: I think it was in like the Manly Daily. There
Speaker 2: was a woman who followed he a GPS and drove
Speaker 2: like right off a wharf. I think we're trusting too
Speaker 2: much in techniclo.
Speaker 1: Well, we got to We've gotta wind it back. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think for being a crook, it's going to be hard.
Speaker 1: And we're policing, you need to be one step ahead
Speaker 1: of head of the crooks because quite often the crooks
Speaker 1: changed their m and if we can get to get
Speaker 1: ahead of them. Look look at that the phone sting
Speaker 1: that generated from America.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that happened. The ANIM takedown happened the exact
Speaker 2: same day that I got arrested. And so when I
Speaker 2: was in prison, people thought that I was a much
Speaker 2: bigger dealer than I was because they thought that I
Speaker 2: was part of the ANIM takedown. Right, that would have
Speaker 2: given you some street credit. It was just funny timing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for anyone doesn't know, Yeah, there was this
Speaker 2: app called ANOM that I think was creative by the FBI.
Speaker 2: And then it was like through a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: like crimson snitches and informants. It was past the carriage
Speaker 2: to be used by the criminal fraternity. And so there
Speaker 2: was all these like major operators using it and the
Speaker 2: colleagues everything.
Speaker 1: They everyone thought that was incated. But yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: scary time for criminals.
Speaker 2: I was. I thought like when on my phone got taken,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's it's locked. I don't think
Speaker 2: you can get in.
Speaker 1: But they got bacticle you to get the past.
Speaker 2: I didn't. They didn't. I think they could have even
Speaker 2: held it in front of my face. They could have
Speaker 2: got in, but they didn't try that. They didn't. They
Speaker 2: didn't do anything like that. But they got like we
Speaker 2: cell bride or whatever it's called. They get. They got
Speaker 2: into some stuff and that was embarrassing enough. They had
Speaker 2: like a text from me to my mate saying like
Speaker 2: hey man, can you bring over the bat phone? And
Speaker 2: I had like a bit in court that that was
Speaker 2: like the batphone was my nickname for my drug phone.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so the second stuff, if I.
Speaker 1: I can relate, I've had my phone, So yeah, if
Speaker 1: you take things out of context, sometimes it looks embarrassing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. So yes, I was there thinking hopefully they
Speaker 2: can't get in, but they got They didn't get everything,
Speaker 2: but they get enough. Yeah. Yeah, that you have a
Speaker 2: sticky situation in court. I explain it. When you're saying
Speaker 2: that you know things to your friends and family or
Speaker 2: you know, and an off color joke, and then you've
Speaker 2: got to read it out in court, it would say
Speaker 2: way worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was something in the news the other day
Speaker 1: about some gang length stuff and I'm even sure which.
Speaker 2: State, but.
Speaker 1: Stuff was being read out the text messages on the
Speaker 1: phone in court and it was someone ship bagging the
Speaker 1: crew he was working with.
Speaker 2: So that would be embarrassing, so embarrassing, like Fellas, in context,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't sound so bad, you know.
Speaker 1: I was just.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you didn't get the You know that
Speaker 2: I was being sarcastic if you can't pick that up
Speaker 2: from a text. We've got a few questions here about
Speaker 2: the podcast. So if you've done over what you've done,
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of episodes, Now, which interview has surprised
Speaker 2: you the most? Is there some that have stuck out?
Speaker 1: Well, pay tribute to you? Are you saying the best podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, obviously I would have to be up there, sure.
Speaker 2: I mean you've talked to people on this podcast from
Speaker 2: all walks of life. Yeah. I think that's one of
Speaker 2: the cool things about this podcast is that you know,
Speaker 2: you've also You've got a lot of guys that have
Speaker 2: found themselves on the wrong side of the law that
Speaker 2: come in here and talk about that perspective as well.
Speaker 2: I think that's very cool.
Speaker 1: I find I really find it interesting sitting down speaking
Speaker 1: to people and thinking, you know people, but until you
Speaker 1: sit down, you don't get the full sense of it.
Speaker 1: And I've been very fortunate the cross section of people.
Speaker 1: I don't it's like saying, which is your favorite child?
Speaker 1: One podcast? I was nervous about doing a turn round.
Speaker 1: I had a great time with Grace Tame. That my
Speaker 1: perception of Grace in the media that was a very intense,
Speaker 1: intense person, and I reading the book, I'm thinking, there's
Speaker 1: so much more to Grace Tame than I didn't realize.
Speaker 1: And came in there and I thought, your stuff up
Speaker 1: with Grace and she's.
Speaker 2: Going to unleash on you. She's got a great sense
Speaker 2: of humor as well.
Speaker 1: Oh, it was funny, funny, funny lady, and I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed that. So that was one that surprised me because
Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be intense and I
Speaker 1: really prepared for it. And then when we got got
Speaker 1: in the room, others some amazing, amazing stories that I've heard,
Speaker 1: stories of survival and different people that spend time in
Speaker 1: time in prison and they come through it. And I'm
Speaker 1: talking overseas prisons. One of the guests that blew me
Speaker 1: away was Rob Langdon. He spent seven years in Kabul
Speaker 1: prison in Afghanistan as the next Army soldier, So you
Speaker 1: can imagine the time he had with ISIS and that
Speaker 1: in there so so many people and I honestly can't
Speaker 1: say like a favorite one I enjoy. I realize how
Speaker 1: fortunate I am every time I come in and sit
Speaker 1: down and have a chat with people.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think a lot of Aussie crims will
Speaker 2: winge about Australian prisons. It can get a lot worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, like a prison in Thailand. And there
Speaker 1: was one bloke, Key's an English English guy, Billy Moore.
Speaker 1: I watch He's watch his movie A movie years ago.
Speaker 1: I think it was called that prayer before Dawn.
Speaker 2: And I have seen that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the myy Tie guy. I watched the movie and
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm hosting the podcast, I could reach out
Speaker 1: to him, got him on and hearing his story, and
Speaker 1: I watched the movie and I always thought they would
Speaker 1: be fascinating and got him in. Thought, well, it fits
Speaker 1: right in the genre of Yeah, I catch killers and
Speaker 1: the story when he was over in Bangkok and the survival,
Speaker 1: how people survive those situations, and then some cops that
Speaker 1: I sit down and speak to. It just makes me
Speaker 1: sad that I want to be back in the cops
Speaker 1: when they're telling a cops story and going, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1: And I've been taken back into that world and people
Speaker 1: that I admire and I think I would love to
Speaker 1: work with that person.
Speaker 2: Are there any guys who you put away who you
Speaker 2: thought like under different circumstances, this guy would have been
Speaker 2: a great guy to have a beer with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, There's plenty of people, and I won't
Speaker 1: name names or get them in trouble, but when I
Speaker 1: sit down and have a chat with them, it's that
Speaker 1: sliding door moment where their lives are gone this way.
Speaker 1: I've gone that way and then you know, we're fortunate
Speaker 1: enough that we can come back and speak to them.
Speaker 1: Even with murderers and people, I choose my words carefully
Speaker 1: here because the consequences of murderer are horrific, but people
Speaker 1: often say, no, murderers should get bail or they're risks
Speaker 1: to society. What I've learned investigating homicides, every murder is different.
Speaker 1: And you know, Sarah or the forensic psychologists would always
Speaker 1: tell me that just because this person's done a bad
Speaker 1: thing doesn't make them a bad person. And that's a
Speaker 1: simple philosophy, and it's from a very smart lady, but
Speaker 1: it's something that I've really learned from that we all
Speaker 1: make mistakes. You make mistakes, I make mistakes. It's how
Speaker 1: you react after the mistakes. We're talking about my mate
Speaker 1: Rob Carlton, who you know through the comedy festivals, and
Speaker 1: he makes a point that you're not defined by what's
Speaker 1: happened right now, it's who you were before and what
Speaker 1: happens after. And that's a good way of looking at
Speaker 1: life too. I think that, yeah, at some point in time,
Speaker 1: we're all going to be down and feeling bad to
Speaker 1: bear ourselves, but what have you done before let's see,
Speaker 1: you've got some credit points there, and what are you
Speaker 1: going to do in the future.
Speaker 2: You must have had, I guess a similar situation to
Speaker 2: me when all the shit hit the fan and you
Speaker 2: left the police force. Is that you know, there's people
Speaker 2: who you thought were your mates. There's people that you
Speaker 2: thought were going to be there when she hits a
Speaker 2: fan that had nowhere to be seen. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: found on the flip side, there's also people that surprise you,
Speaker 2: people that come and have your back that you never expected.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I one hundred percent on that, and I
Speaker 1: was surprised, Like I probably at that point, I probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have picked some of the reactions. I thought there
Speaker 1: was some stand up people, and they've been shown to
Speaker 1: be just weak gathered, you know, just couldn't even come
Speaker 1: in and say hello to me when I'm in the
Speaker 1: room for three months. That these are people that mates,
Speaker 1: that have been working with for twenty years. And there's
Speaker 1: other people that have reached out if anything I can
Speaker 1: do the help that made such a difference. So I
Speaker 1: lost I lost a lot of friends through it. And
Speaker 1: then there's others like I paid tribute to I mentioned
Speaker 1: Paul Jacob, I mentioned him a lot. Maddie Moss is
Speaker 1: another bloke and Nick Kaldos's deputy commissioner, and he retired
Speaker 1: as shortly before the ship hit the fan with me,
Speaker 1: and he fumed me up and said, Jubes, I'm walking
Speaker 1: into court with you. And that's him putting his without
Speaker 1: even asking what this was all about. He just said,
Speaker 1: I'm walking in the court with you. So I'm walking
Speaker 1: in with my mentor, Paul Jacob Nick Kaldos, a deputy commissioner,
Speaker 1: and Maddie Moss that I worked with in homicide. And
Speaker 1: I can't say how much that meant to me because
Speaker 1: you know, walking in these are people that I respect
Speaker 1: and they're walking in support me, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of other people that are behind the scenes of have
Speaker 1: supported me.
Speaker 2: I found, yeah, that I had that feeling of that
Speaker 2: I was let down by people that I thought would
Speaker 2: be there, but then people surprised me and so really
Speaker 2: we're just going through Shiit just is a great clarifier
Speaker 2: where you stand with people. Well.
Speaker 1: It has freedom out to a degree because before I'd
Speaker 1: feel obliged that.
Speaker 2: You know, you gather a send off or whatever.
Speaker 1: I think I've been to two police functions in the
Speaker 1: past six years, and I'm happy with that. I'm happy
Speaker 1: with that. If I if I make an effort to
Speaker 1: gather a function, that's because I really support this person
Speaker 1: and this person's supported me.
Speaker 2: So it sounds like I get invited to more police functions.
Speaker 1: I reckon, I reckon there'd be I reckon, there'd be
Speaker 1: more surveillance on me than on you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've swapped ross. I was invited to perform stand
Speaker 2: up for Christmas last year at a at a Victorian
Speaker 2: police station.
Speaker 1: But they you prick, you are getting invited to more.
Speaker 2: So. Yes, most of my paid corporate gigs so far
Speaker 2: have been have been government events like mostly criminal justice
Speaker 2: system once.
Speaker 1: But I see I look a look at you and
Speaker 1: flipping it. See how I've just worked this round and
Speaker 1: now I'm coming to the master plan. This is all
Speaker 1: a set up. We're going to get you to confess.
Speaker 1: But the systems worked for you, hasn't it. You got caught,
Speaker 1: you got punnies, and you've turned your life around.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that the thing that the prison experience
Speaker 2: really wasn't the thing that changed me. It was the
Speaker 2: impact it had in my friends and family that was
Speaker 2: the difference, and so I think if I had got
Speaker 2: up an environment where everyone I knew was already in prison,
Speaker 2: or I didn't have any friends and family, then I
Speaker 2: don't know if it would have been as strong a
Speaker 2: dis incentive. Okay, because because I had a pretty good
Speaker 2: time in prison, I've got traded great and so I
Speaker 2: think that it was the thing that changed me was
Speaker 2: yet I didn't want to be so selfish just to
Speaker 2: hurt my friends and family anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think, and therein might be the difference
Speaker 1: where people that can't break the break the shackles or
Speaker 1: start to go in the different directions in life, you
Speaker 1: had people around you supporting you, so you can have
Speaker 1: sympathy for and empathy for the people that didn't have
Speaker 1: that support. You could understand if you went in that
Speaker 1: world and you didn't have the family and that.
Speaker 2: For you totally. I think another thing was just opening
Speaker 2: my eyes to how many guys that were in prison
Speaker 2: who you felt like the writing was probably on the
Speaker 2: wall since they were a kid. They just grew up
Speaker 2: an environment where this was always the way that they
Speaker 2: were going to end up. And for me, growing up
Speaker 2: with privilege and being well educated, I just felt like
Speaker 2: I felt like more of a kockhead for bending up there.
Speaker 2: So that was another reason.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's some shame that comes with that that
Speaker 1: I can't say you didn't understand m childhood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally was. I was to go out and
Speaker 2: do something better than that.
Speaker 1: But look, I think I think it's worked in your situation.
Speaker 1: I think that is a system system working. Where it's
Speaker 1: sad is if you've gone in there with that attitude
Speaker 1: and the system was that rough to you, and that
Speaker 1: that tough that you've you've come out worse than what
Speaker 1: you went in.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's and you would.
Speaker 1: It's a horrible place, isn't I did that series Breaking
Speaker 1: Badness and spent time in that maximum security prison and
Speaker 1: spent a couple of weeks there, and you're just it's
Speaker 1: groundhog Day, isn't it? Every every day? And you can
Speaker 1: see how it breaks people.
Speaker 2: Mentally groundhog Day? And then you know, you have guys.
Speaker 2: I'd be in the yard with guys saying that when
Speaker 2: they got out, they're going to change their life, and
Speaker 2: when they were had to come back, and then a
Speaker 2: couple of years later they're back in because Yeah, for
Speaker 2: a lot of guys, they get out and then they
Speaker 2: forget what it was like in there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough, tough world. I think we
Speaker 1: can do the prisons better.
Speaker 2: I think it is pretty cool when I do my
Speaker 2: stand up shows now, I'll have a lot of people
Speaker 2: involved with the criminal justice system on both sides coming.
Speaker 2: So I'll have a lot of lawyers, but also cops,
Speaker 2: prison officers, but also crims, either like past or current, Yeah, crims.
Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes I'll have like twenty blike's kind of
Speaker 2: my show to support me, which is like a lovely
Speaker 2: But I do get messages from people sometimes to say
Speaker 2: that they did some prison time and they've moved on
Speaker 2: with their life, but it's it's their secret shame they
Speaker 2: don't talk about it. Yeah, and so they think it's
Speaker 2: very cool that I kind of own the fuck out
Speaker 2: of it and do and make jokes about it because
Speaker 2: I'm trying to. I'm just kind of I'm weaponizing I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm empowering myself with it. But also I think hopefully
Speaker 2: I'm trying to desigmatize it a little bit, to be like,
Speaker 2: you can have that happen, but you're allowed to move
Speaker 2: on with your life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a good thing. And a skill
Speaker 1: that you have is to be able to laugh at yourself.
Speaker 1: I could have really bottled up when I was publicly
Speaker 1: publicly shamed and different things, but I can have a
Speaker 1: laugh about it. One of my great decisions was when
Speaker 1: I got sense that, or before I got sense, they
Speaker 1: want do an article in the paper, and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm happy, happy to do it. And I've said inter
Speaker 1: view and I'd prefer to go to jail and pay
Speaker 1: a fine. And then they've got a photo of me
Speaker 1: standing on Couldjie Beach with Marm's cross staring, and it
Speaker 1: was on the front page of the paper on the weekend,
Speaker 1: and I've gone, that's not good.
Speaker 2: Margaret just shortened the quota, just says I would rather
Speaker 2: go to jail. And it's like I think it was.
Speaker 1: Margaret Canerian text me and gone, I've represented easier client.
Speaker 2: She was a my Barrissa or whatever.
Speaker 1: But having said that, I was comfortable with that and
Speaker 1: what I meant by that, and I was true to
Speaker 1: my word. And some people might say I'm stupid and
Speaker 1: I am stupid, and they might I know I'm stupid,
Speaker 1: but it was a matter of principle. For fuck's sake.
Speaker 1: I was doing police work. If you're going to find me,
Speaker 1: send me to jail if I'm that bad, and it was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can imagine how that's received in the legal fraternity.
Speaker 1: But I feel good about that. I was not going
Speaker 1: to take a knee for what I did, and I
Speaker 1: I could have had an easier path out of there.
Speaker 1: I could have just gone, I'm sorry, I've boots stressed,
Speaker 1: I'm working on this all that. No, I dug myhills
Speaker 1: in the Yeah, people might say to my detriment, but
Speaker 1: I can live for myself if I if I took
Speaker 1: the knee and apologized, I don't think I'd look myself
Speaker 1: in the mirror and be happy with what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: The media do like they'll sensationalize it. I know, I know.
Speaker 2: I got stitched up. Recently. I was in some expos
Speaker 2: a about cocaine, and I was just making the point
Speaker 2: that when I'm with the lockout laws, a lot of
Speaker 2: people gone to just having house parties, and people was
Speaker 2: saving the money that they had been on alcohol and
Speaker 2: buying drugs. Right, And so then the article had in
Speaker 2: like big, a big quote for me, in a big
Speaker 2: photo for me in the Daily telegraphs saying cheaper to
Speaker 2: do coke than beer and maybe sound like the worst
Speaker 2: financial advisor in the world.
Speaker 1: Again if things taken out of context. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: you've got to choose your words carefully, haven't you? When
Speaker 1: I do TV work that you might be recorded for
Speaker 1: an hour or so, and knowing that they're only going
Speaker 1: to be using sixty seconds or two minute grab from
Speaker 1: sixty minutes of footage. So you've got to be careful
Speaker 1: and you do learn dealing with the media.
Speaker 2: Eventually, Yeah, you do after you gets stung a few times.
Speaker 2: A couple of highs and layers. Let's talk about your
Speaker 2: personal life.
Speaker 1: Talking about highs and layers.
Speaker 2: So what kind of weird stuff are you into? Yoga?
Speaker 2: Meditation that's not weird stuff?
Speaker 1: Yeah, saunas, yoga, meditation, boxing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what else do you have in kale juices? You
Speaker 2: don't drink coffee, you're drinking herbal teas.
Speaker 1: I like smoothies. But this is the way I approach
Speaker 1: fitness and the healthy life sotyle. I think there's got
Speaker 1: to be balanced. So starts off with I'll do yoga
Speaker 1: and meditation, but I also like the box, so I
Speaker 1: like to get hit I like to hit things, but
Speaker 1: I like to sit there and chant. So it's about balance.
Speaker 1: People think I'm obsessed with my fitness. I just I
Speaker 1: train so I can live the life the way I
Speaker 1: want to live it, if that makes sense. And yeah,
Speaker 1: we're all I drink like it's not I'm not. No,
Speaker 1: I'm pure. I'm not going to drink. I don't go
Speaker 1: down that path. I just want to have moderation in
Speaker 1: the way that I approach my life. So some people, but.
Speaker 2: You were never the cliche of the grizzled detective waking
Speaker 2: up hungover. You're only getting up early to do us
Speaker 2: to do down with dog with the sun rising.
Speaker 1: A couple of a couple of funny times, like because
Speaker 1: we're traveling so much in homicide and you're always traveling.
Speaker 1: That was one country town. I forget where it was.
Speaker 1: I'm down by the river and I'm doing chigung, which
Speaker 1: is like a slow moving taie chee type.
Speaker 2: I've seen Chinese ladies doing this in the park.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm down there and you've gotta
Speaker 1: love country Australia. One blake just walks up to me.
Speaker 1: So I'm just in the middle of the movement, just
Speaker 1: you know, center centering everything. What are you doing? Mate?
Speaker 2: It looks weird?
Speaker 1: Shit, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Country thing?
Speaker 1: And another time we've Jason, we're gone out west of Dubbo.
Speaker 1: Once you go west of Dubbo, it's really getting into that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the outback type era.
Speaker 1: And we're driving along. I said, can you stop the
Speaker 1: car for a moment and he said yeah, and I
Speaker 1: get out of the car. I'm just standing in this
Speaker 1: paddic or. It was just a dry sort of area,
Speaker 1: just standing taking in the silence. I was really enjoying it.
Speaker 1: It was just had a chaoic time. What the fuck
Speaker 1: are you doing? Then he put on the police sirah,
Speaker 1: the reckless serenity.
Speaker 2: But look, it's help. It's helped me, it's helped me.
Speaker 2: I read an article which said that five hundred and
Speaker 2: eighty one crimes go and sold in New South Wales
Speaker 2: every month due to police officers wasting time on breath
Speaker 2: work and meditation when they should be serving a crime.
Speaker 1: Okay, how will I respond to that bullshit? There's a
Speaker 1: lot I'd say that more than I'm looking at the figures,
Speaker 1: probably more crimes are doing that. They're probably playing on
Speaker 1: their phone at balances. At balances, I got through homicide
Speaker 1: as long as I did, and I didn't take time
Speaker 1: off when I was at work. I turned up every
Speaker 1: day because when I was knowing I'm spinning out of control,
Speaker 1: that was my release. Sometimes I had to sit there
Speaker 1: and meditate. Other times I'd had to walk in the
Speaker 1: gym and get the shit punched out of me to
Speaker 1: just take my mind of what I'm doing. But it
Speaker 1: worked for me. It doesn't work for everyone. But what
Speaker 1: I find really interesting. When I first started doing it,
Speaker 1: people thought I was weird. It was almost like you
Speaker 1: don't trust a blake that doesn't drink. You don't trust
Speaker 1: a blake he does chiggle.
Speaker 2: So my mum always said, you never trust a skinny chef.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the same thing. But I think people are
Speaker 1: more accepting of it now. And when I use to
Speaker 1: go to a yoga retreat or whatever, people would be
Speaker 1: sitting there and yeah, you're talking, and what do you do?
Speaker 1: I'm a policeman and everyone just looking just what the hell?
Speaker 1: But now it's the norm. Yeah, so I was ahead
Speaker 1: of my time.
Speaker 2: Here's another question from Brian Garry. Is it true that
Speaker 2: you had a full head of hair? When you started
Speaker 2: with the cops. But a strand fell out every time
Speaker 2: you pissed off one of your former wives or girlfriends.
Speaker 1: That's a loaded, loaded question. I didn't have that many
Speaker 1: wives and girlfriends. When you look back, it's over a
Speaker 1: long period of time. When my hair started falling out,
Speaker 1: you get to that point do you do the shave
Speaker 1: or not do the shaven? And when I've decided to
Speaker 1: do the shave, or away with a group of friends,
Speaker 1: surfing trip or whatever, and one of the mates, the
Speaker 1: wives or girlfriends, said I've got some clippers in there,
Speaker 1: why don't we shave? And it was enlightening all of
Speaker 1: a sudden. You're not worried about being baled. Here you're bald.
Speaker 1: What are you going to do about it?
Speaker 2: It's quite free.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is free. It's a little bit confronting at first,
Speaker 1: but once you do it, life goes on. Like when
Speaker 1: you're losing your hair, there's nothing worse. And I see
Speaker 1: blakes going through it, and I know they're going through it.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you poor bastard. You'll be thinking life's not
Speaker 1: worth living. If I've got no hair, shave it off
Speaker 1: and you go, oh, well, here I am.
Speaker 2: You've got a head that suits a bald head though, Well.
Speaker 1: That I was I wasn't. I wasn't going to say
Speaker 1: that because you don't know until your shave, because you
Speaker 1: don't know what sort of shape you've you've got.
Speaker 2: True. Yeah, I don't want to see a photo of
Speaker 2: Gary with hair. It was.
Speaker 1: It was long, curly hair, and I miss it. The
Speaker 1: thing I miss is having haircuts because I like to go.
Speaker 1: You could sit and have a haircut, you know, when
Speaker 1: you're just got a shitty day or stuff it, I'll
Speaker 1: get a haircut. Well, you can't really do that. I
Speaker 1: haven't got many options.
Speaker 2: But you had hair when you first started the copper Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah had hair.
Speaker 1: In regards to the girlfriends and wives, yes, I've had
Speaker 1: a few.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well you said before. You know, you're not good
Speaker 2: tchechnive unless you've gone through a couple of divorces. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some of the best cases were solved when I was
Speaker 1: just a lonely guy at home. We've nothing to do. Look,
Speaker 1: I've had I've had some great relationships, and everyone I've
Speaker 1: been with I've got something from the relationship. Why they
Speaker 1: break down? People always want me to say, well, it's
Speaker 1: a pressure of work. Sometimes it's a pressure of work.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just grow apart because work is demanding and
Speaker 1: you give yourself, give yourself to that. But I don't
Speaker 1: know if I've.
Speaker 2: Learned well, I mean that was my next question is
Speaker 2: now you're, what six six years out of five years
Speaker 2: out of the force. Do you think that that has
Speaker 2: changed your ability to maintain a relationship because you not
Speaker 2: have this drive to solve a murder everybody a couple
Speaker 2: of days.
Speaker 1: It definitely makes me a better catch in that that
Speaker 1: you're more available, more available because before I would be
Speaker 1: hard pressed not to turn the phone off.
Speaker 2: I can now get to the point where I, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not it's not just like a time thing. But
Speaker 2: also imagine an emotional availability thing. If you're if I'm
Speaker 2: mentally bogged down in someone's murder, it'd be hard to
Speaker 2: kind of unplug from that and go out for dating.
Speaker 1: Yet well, one hundred percent, and sometimes you get home
Speaker 1: and where do you want to have dinner? Well, I
Speaker 1: don't care, like just that that type of thing I
Speaker 1: in my my work life was very challenging. I tend
Speaker 1: to the relationships I've been in, They've been challenging and rewarding.
Speaker 1: So it's sort of the highs and the lowers. I
Speaker 1: like the passionate relationships which can end very badly sometimes.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you my ex fiance dubbed me into
Speaker 2: the cops and I got center present, So.
Speaker 1: No point the winch What I have learned, and this
Speaker 1: is jeezus last hit him over the head enough times
Speaker 1: he starts to learn. The ship that went down in
Speaker 1: the the Cops made me realize the importance of the
Speaker 1: people that I needed to rely upon, the people close
Speaker 1: to me, the people that supported me, family, friends and
Speaker 1: all that, and relationships. No matter what, if you're in
Speaker 1: a good relationship, life's pretty good, and I understand the
Speaker 1: importance of it. That's what I want from life. I
Speaker 1: want a good relationship because no matter how much success
Speaker 1: you have or rewards you're getting from work, if you
Speaker 1: come home and there's no one there, it's a pretty
Speaker 1: lonely place. And I've spent a lot of time, a
Speaker 1: lot of time on my own and sometimes you're on
Speaker 1: the high from work you've come home. Fuck yeah, you've
Speaker 1: become like that cliche of the homicide bloke eating a
Speaker 1: pizza and a cold beer sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that leads us on to our next
Speaker 2: question game. Quite a few women have written in to
Speaker 2: ask if you are single, what's the relationships staff of
Speaker 2: Gary Jervalin. It's classified.
Speaker 1: It's classified at this stage. I'm in a good place
Speaker 1: at the moment. I'm gonna tiptoe around this, around this question.
Speaker 1: I've had my highs and lowers since I've left the cops,
Speaker 1: reading to that what what you want? But I'm finding
Speaker 1: a pathway through. It's very mysterious a politician, I finding
Speaker 1: the pathway. Is there any phone numbers there?
Speaker 2: Check the Instagram. Look, I'm yeah.
Speaker 1: You can make so many mistakes in life, and then
Speaker 1: you've got to wake up yourself. I'm hoping that I'll
Speaker 1: get it right in the future.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, some checks would have just been into
Speaker 2: you when you were a cop, because they it's a
Speaker 2: fantasy thing. But you're not that anymore so, not that
Speaker 2: you're just a.
Speaker 1: Podcast sad if I'm walking around going I used to
Speaker 1: be a cop.
Speaker 2: I used to be uniform. So yeah, you're right, that's
Speaker 2: a hard, hard show. You've still got a photo of
Speaker 2: you in your uniform and you're on your Tinder bio.
Speaker 1: I've never gone down that path no dating apps. Not
Speaker 1: Look what the phone got me into. It got me charged.
Speaker 1: I'm not touching that thing that would that would end
Speaker 1: in disaster. Okay, so I stick clear of that. But no,
Speaker 1: you've made a good point.
Speaker 2: What what do you do?
Speaker 1: I do a podcast. We'll say that's everyone else. I've
Speaker 1: got to work on the line more interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, chicks seek every dude, every white dude has
Speaker 2: a podcast.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well everyone's got a podcast. Okay, got to
Speaker 1: come up with something.
Speaker 2: Listen to it.
Speaker 1: Actually, so you can. Have you played the line that
Speaker 1: now that you've written the book, you're an author.
Speaker 2: That's that has to be I still haven't tried that one.
Speaker 2: It's still it still seems very surreal that I wrote
Speaker 2: a book. So it's only been a few months. But
Speaker 2: I'm okay, we'll get get into that because just you've
Speaker 2: got to.
Speaker 1: Tailor it to the now. I'm an author, a writer.
Speaker 2: A comedian. Doesn't sound that oppressive. That's a that's a
Speaker 2: pretty I'm in the performing arts.
Speaker 1: What but isn't that? Isn't that what they say? Like
Speaker 1: what the women look for, it's not the looks. That's
Speaker 1: a man that can make them make them laugh.
Speaker 2: So sure, I'm sure you can. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 2: that they want that like at home, they wanted a
Speaker 2: guy who's making it for you, like I don't know
Speaker 2: that on stage doing it for everyone else.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just embarrassing.
Speaker 2: You were talking about Pam before and relationship with Pam.
Speaker 2: I saw you'd had her on this podcast previously, and
Speaker 2: she had mentioned that you were a generous lover. Good
Speaker 2: on you, Gary, that I wasn't sure where that answered.
Speaker 2: I wanted that. Yeah, but she also said that you
Speaker 2: were prone to answering your phone in the throes of passion,
Speaker 2: Gary Andrew, can't you call them back in two minutes?
Speaker 2: Well two minutes?
Speaker 1: Let her go to it, won't I'm not going to
Speaker 1: say how long it it take before I call him back.
Speaker 1: That's but good line of question that you almost tripped
Speaker 1: me into that. It wouldn't have been two minutes, would
Speaker 1: have been ten minutes. Good good questioning.
Speaker 2: But you used to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did, and I'm not proud of it. I'm
Speaker 1: not mate, I'm not proud of it. But Pam was
Speaker 1: a homicide detective too, so she would under understand.
Speaker 2: But yeah, whatever rocks you, Baace. Even though most dedicated
Speaker 2: of cops is allowed to have a few minutes to themselves.
Speaker 1: Surely that was I was a lunatic in the just
Speaker 1: find me any time, I'll answer, Yeah, okay, I'm embarrassed
Speaker 1: by that. Well, you know, and I did publicly apologize
Speaker 1: to Pam and anyone else I've insulted.
Speaker 2: For well, I was probably a good thing that you're
Speaker 2: not on Tinder, because it would be like just photos
Speaker 2: of you were to say generous lava as long as
Speaker 2: the phone doesn't ring.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you talk about the media. And my kids
Speaker 1: sent me this and they're gone, Dad, like as an embarrassment.
Speaker 1: Top cops with bedroomantics or whatever.
Speaker 2: The headlight just what they thought I could have get
Speaker 2: any work?
Speaker 1: Can you shut up, Dad?
Speaker 2: Stop it?
Speaker 1: But yeah, that wasn't wasn't a proud moment for my kids.
Speaker 2: So now you're in a position where you're not in
Speaker 2: the cops. So whatever relationships you get into now it's
Speaker 2: a different version of you.
Speaker 1: It is a different version, but a more relaxed version.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that I can control my life now.
Speaker 1: Now that's something that I didn't realize when I was
Speaker 1: in the cops. That now, when I'm basically working for myself.
Speaker 1: I can choose when I work. If someone wants me
Speaker 1: to do a talk, I don't have to ask for permission,
Speaker 1: And so I feel like I've got control of my life.
Speaker 1: If I want a holiday, I can plan for it.
Speaker 1: In the cops, you couldn't plan for those type of things.
Speaker 1: So I think I'm a Is this am I doing
Speaker 1: a sales pitch like cook a beautiful meal?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: No, I'm a better person than I was when I
Speaker 1: was in the Cops. I still liked the person I
Speaker 1: was in the Cops. I was dedicated and all that,
Speaker 1: but I've got or freedom now, and I think people
Speaker 1: that know me see me as more relaxed now than
Speaker 1: the intensity that you had to carry as a homicide detective.
Speaker 2: Do you looking back at your career and I guess
Speaker 2: the way you left the force you have regrets around it.
Speaker 1: My regret and I've said this before, and when I
Speaker 1: say it, I don't want people to misinterpret it. But
Speaker 1: if I knew that my career was going to end
Speaker 1: the way it did, I went hard on the wim
Speaker 1: turial investigation. If I knew it was just going to
Speaker 1: be ripped away, I would have gone even harder and
Speaker 1: I'm not making any apologies for the way I led
Speaker 1: the investigation and my regrets. I promise the as we've
Speaker 1: talked about, I promise the biological family and the foster
Speaker 1: family that I would do everything humanly possible to find
Speaker 1: out what's happened to Wim, and that opportunity was taken
Speaker 1: away from it. I feel like I've let them down.
Speaker 1: And there were other investigations too that have been pulled
Speaker 1: off and haven't done any handover and all that, and
Speaker 1: that hurts me. That's if I've got regrets, they're the
Speaker 1: regrets I've got that I didn't finish. While I set
Speaker 1: out the start having said that I will help these
Speaker 1: people in any way I can outside the cops, that
Speaker 1: commitment didn't end at the moment I walked out the door.
Speaker 1: I didn't go, oh, well, it's nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: I spend that much time on the phone speaking to
Speaker 1: people that have got problems where we investigations, and that
Speaker 1: I haven't got the contacts in the police, which is
Speaker 1: sad because I could filter them through if I had
Speaker 1: the contacts in the police and say, hey, look, I've
Speaker 1: been speaking to this person. I think there could be
Speaker 1: something in it. I would love to have that relationship
Speaker 1: with the police, but there's no one I can pick
Speaker 1: up and speak to, pick up a phone and speak
Speaker 1: to in the police. So I'm dealing with traumatized people now,
Speaker 1: even though I'm outside the cops and trying to help
Speaker 1: them and point them in a direction. And I'd like
Speaker 1: to help every one of them, but it's got to
Speaker 1: the point where I can't. I can't keep up with
Speaker 1: it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that doesn't sound like a very a very
Speaker 2: annoying roadblock for the wheels of justice. If you've got
Speaker 2: this information, you just want to pass it on.
Speaker 1: Surely the whole thing is about getting getting justice. I
Speaker 1: just want to do the podcast. I don't want to
Speaker 1: do this stuff, but these people are genuine and they're
Speaker 1: reaching out to me, so I help them where I can.
Speaker 2: It must be hard to have that kind of relationship
Speaker 2: with the police force when you've given so much to
Speaker 2: it for so long.
Speaker 1: It's a mind fuck if you ever think it. So
Speaker 1: I just laugh about it and think I've got good memories.
Speaker 1: I know the people that respect me and the people
Speaker 1: that I respect, and I don't let it bog me
Speaker 1: down because if if occasionally I start to overthink it
Speaker 1: and someone will raise something about but this that it's
Speaker 1: going to destroy me. It will destroy me with just
Speaker 1: frustration and you know the unfairness of it all. But
Speaker 1: it's not that way. And I look at it and
Speaker 1: I think it helps when I see what some other
Speaker 1: people have gone through, especially the victims of homicide. What
Speaker 1: am I winging about? Like William Tyrrell's are the foster
Speaker 1: parents and biological parents look at the ship they're caught
Speaker 1: up in and I've got nothing to nothing to complain about.
Speaker 1: You know, they've lost their lost their child.
Speaker 2: So you know, but the ship you've gone through is
Speaker 2: still valid.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it is. And I'm not diminishing it. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm impervious to feeling feeling the pain.
Speaker 1: But when it's all said and done, I'm happy with
Speaker 1: the career I had in the police. I'm proud of
Speaker 1: the career I had in the police, and I'm enjoying
Speaker 1: what I'm doing doing now. So I look at it,
Speaker 1: look at it that way.
Speaker 2: So what do you want to do now with the
Speaker 2: horizon You've got any things that we're working on, or
Speaker 2: you want to do.
Speaker 1: A couple of things that have been. I've loved the
Speaker 1: podcast world like I've really enjoyed that and just learning,
Speaker 1: learning the trade, learning working in the media. I've enjoyed
Speaker 1: writing the books. And a shout out to Dan Box
Speaker 1: who I wrote the books, the two books that number
Speaker 1: one best sellers. I should say.
Speaker 2: Just I write mine on my own without any help,
Speaker 2: so you.
Speaker 1: Know, Dan, Dan wasn't much help. But I'm lying down.
Speaker 1: I'm lying. But I enjoyed that. And I have got
Speaker 1: a thought in my head for a third book. I
Speaker 1: catch Gills as a memoir that was my life badness,
Speaker 1: was understanding badness, and I don't know, I've got to
Speaker 1: be in the right mindset to go down that path
Speaker 1: and write that book, but I'm getting close to it.
Speaker 1: I've got a sort of structure for it, so I'm
Speaker 1: looking at that. A couple of other pictures to me
Speaker 1: about the TV series and different things that are in
Speaker 1: the works. And sometimes I do consultancy. I like hanging
Speaker 1: out with creative creative types.
Speaker 2: What's the kind of consultancy stuff. It's like as a
Speaker 2: police procedural and they asked for your.
Speaker 1: Fictional TV series and they send me the script and
Speaker 1: I go through the script and go oh, look, that's
Speaker 1: not really what we do, so give it a little
Speaker 1: bit of realism to it, which is enjoyable. And one
Speaker 1: thing I did one of the characters crazy fuck.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that sort of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the things that really challenging but so rewarding
Speaker 1: was touring touring the country with Rob Carlton on the
Speaker 1: Eye Catch Killers Show, and I had I was like
Speaker 1: a sponge hanging out with Rob because he's been in
Speaker 1: that industry for so long, and he taught me so
Speaker 1: much about presence on the stage and timing and different
Speaker 1: things and doing one show after another and traveling around
Speaker 1: the country.
Speaker 2: I needed to show at the Factory Theater. Where else
Speaker 2: did you guys do shows?
Speaker 1: We did, and more theater too, and Entertainment Center down
Speaker 1: in Victoria and Brisbane, Yeah, all over the place. So
Speaker 1: it was it was good. We did a capital city
Speaker 1: tour and then a regional tour. But I enjoyed the
Speaker 1: experience of doing live shows. But there's a lot of
Speaker 1: effort that you've got to put into it, and a
Speaker 1: lot of energy. I didn't appreciate how much energy and
Speaker 1: the effort you've got to put into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's so much just before you get
Speaker 2: on stage, right, just the nervous energy.
Speaker 1: I've told this story, but our first show was at
Speaker 1: Edmore Theater, sold out on the Saturday night, and we
Speaker 1: had two weeks to prepare for the show, and I
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be a Q and a
Speaker 1: robed me sitting there and asking me questions and I
Speaker 1: got this, and Rob's gone, there, this is the theater, stupid.
Speaker 1: We're taking the audience on the journey. So I had
Speaker 1: about thirty minutes of monologue to learn, timing, all sorts
Speaker 1: of things. I was shitting myself before the show, and
Speaker 1: even my manager Nick for them, He's gone because I'm
Speaker 1: going m More Theater Saturday night. Like m Moore Theater,
Speaker 1: I go see bands there. This is you know, was iconic.
Speaker 1: This is my patch. I don't want to embarrass myself
Speaker 1: this area. And Nick's air and he had a nervous
Speaker 1: look on his face. And we've done the show and
Speaker 1: it went over really well, and Nick's gone, Oh Jesus,
Speaker 1: I was a bit worried about it. I didn't know
Speaker 1: ever that it come off of. You promised me it
Speaker 1: would come off.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to tell you that beforehand that would.
Speaker 1: Probably would have sent me over the edge. Gary's not
Speaker 1: coming out of the dressing room. But good stuff, And yeah,
Speaker 1: it gave me a confidence. And because I still do
Speaker 1: a lot of TV stuff and all that, and the
Speaker 1: pressure of a live audience, you guys, and I say
Speaker 1: it to you, guys, that would terrify me walking out
Speaker 1: on stage on your own. And I can walk out
Speaker 1: and tell stories and entertained, But to go out there
Speaker 1: and I'm going to make you laugh? How do you
Speaker 1: prepare before you?
Speaker 2: I think in the same way that you're talking about
Speaker 2: being addicted to the job, you know, I addicted to comedy.
Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, there are times when I absolutely
Speaker 2: shit myself. You know, I'll have a quick beer and
Speaker 2: I'll just go out and stage and I just trusted
Speaker 2: my material, yeah, trusting my jokes. And then you know,
Speaker 2: once people start laughing, you relax right into it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But that that You've got to hit it right, haven't you.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I've been in the dressing room with big
Speaker 1: shows and I'm just seeing, what the fuck have I
Speaker 1: put myself in this position?
Speaker 2: Can we cancel it? Hown?
Speaker 1: I break my leg? If I break my leg?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all that that's a normal part of the process.
Speaker 2: And I think that the just between people like I
Speaker 2: don't know how you do that, we have those same feelings.
Speaker 2: You just force yourself to do it because because I
Speaker 2: know that's what I'm meant to be doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that I really respect that you're doing finding
Speaker 1: your passion when you say what I want to do
Speaker 1: in life, I want to do something that I'm passionate about.
Speaker 1: And I did that in the policing and I'm doing
Speaker 1: it now and it makes life a lot easier, Like
Speaker 1: it really does. I don't recall winging that I've got
Speaker 1: to get up to bed, to get out of bed
Speaker 1: to go the work. I was excited about going to work.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I probably didn't feel like getting out, but I
Speaker 1: was always excited.
Speaker 2: How did this podcast come about? How you've been out
Speaker 2: of the police force for how long? And then did
Speaker 2: you approach someone to they approach you about doing it?
Speaker 1: No, I got inundated with you. We've got the TV series,
Speaker 1: We're doing this or doing that? All these proposals put
Speaker 1: to me, and I'm sort of overwhelmed, and like I
Speaker 1: really I am just sitting there done, going what am
Speaker 1: I going to do? And like sixty minutes. It approach
Speaker 1: me to get the contract with sixty minutes and then
Speaker 1: news Corp and I'm speaking. I'm getting speaking to Rob
Speaker 1: going what the hell? This is a world that you
Speaker 1: understand better than I. And he said, You've got to
Speaker 1: get an agent. I've gone got to get an agent.
Speaker 1: That sounds like what a winker?
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I've just cut awful when I've just.
Speaker 1: Come from the cops and I've got to get an agent.
Speaker 1: And he referred me to Nick for them. So I
Speaker 1: sat down and spoke with Nick and He's gone, okay,
Speaker 1: well there's a book. We'll get your contract with sixty
Speaker 1: minutes with News Corp. The podcasts, and I'm just going, okay,
Speaker 1: this is you think what a rollercoaster? Yeah, And then
Speaker 1: Nick made the comment and it's pretty funny. On the
Speaker 1: day I was in I think it was the second
Speaker 1: time i'd gone into his office to talk about planning
Speaker 1: my future career. He's got taken a call and it
Speaker 1: was from Margaret Canoe and the barrister that said, the
Speaker 1: police have got your circulators wanted if you don't give
Speaker 1: yourself up. And Nick's gone, that's the first time I've
Speaker 1: had a client in here about to be arrested.
Speaker 2: How good?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was and he's gone, it's all good.
Speaker 1: It's publicity, don't worry about So the podcast with news
Speaker 1: Corp and also write some articles. That was terrifying for
Speaker 1: me because I'm writing an article and it's on the
Speaker 1: front page of the paper and Claire Harvey, who was
Speaker 1: my mentor News Corp when I first started, said could
Speaker 1: you write an article about this? And it was something
Speaker 1: relevant to William Tyrrell or the ship that was going down?
Speaker 1: So I did and I took about two days to
Speaker 1: write this article. I was so nervous. It's like sending
Speaker 1: off a UNI assignment that the whole world's going to read.
Speaker 2: Is it going to be any good? Is it going
Speaker 2: to be going to say?
Speaker 1: It's ship to the true true story. I've sent it,
Speaker 1: email it to her and I get a text back
Speaker 1: and she's gone, got the article, and I've gone, oh,
Speaker 1: that sounds really positive. And I've caught the train into
Speaker 1: Holtstreet and walked up there and Clear's in her office
Speaker 1: and she's got coffee spilt on the desk. I'm sort
Speaker 1: of sidling in there just to try and get some feedback,
Speaker 1: and she's gone you can actually write I spelt my
Speaker 1: coffee I was reading it, and you can actually write
Speaker 1: I've got oh, Thank Christ.
Speaker 2: She could have added a couple extra words of the
Speaker 2: text message, but it was.
Speaker 1: But I learned a lot, and people like Claire and
Speaker 1: Dan and other people have helped me to write and
Speaker 1: understand that you've got to be descriptive because I was
Speaker 1: very factual in policing. Arrived at the premises. Now it
Speaker 1: was a cold, windy night when I arrived at the premises,
Speaker 1: that type of thing.
Speaker 2: So you've got.
Speaker 1: To be descriptive in the way that you described things.
Speaker 1: So that that's been good and it's made me. I'm
Speaker 1: proud of the articles that I've written, and some have
Speaker 1: been very meaningful to me about issues that I'm writing about.
Speaker 1: And then the podcast. They said to get your mate Jason,
Speaker 1: and we'll go to a pub and we'll record a podcast.
Speaker 1: And that's basically. We started recording at pubs, did the
Speaker 1: first season and could not stand drinking from eight o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning because we'd have a couple of beers
Speaker 1: to create the atmosphere. Fly on the wall stuff. But
Speaker 1: I was interviewing old cops or cops I've worked with.
Speaker 1: And after we've finished the podcast two hours and I
Speaker 1: don't know, three beers, we'd get too loose if we
Speaker 1: went past that, Let's have some lunch. And so by
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the afternoon, I'm plasted and I'm thinking.
Speaker 2: I can't do this. And that's how we go back
Speaker 2: to being a rookie cop going out for Chinese again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so that's.
Speaker 1: Where we've moved into the studio and just enjoyed it
Speaker 1: and enjoyed the journey of it.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I can't imagine that you thought when you
Speaker 2: started that it was going to go as long as.
Speaker 1: It has no Well that's I really I thought, well,
Speaker 1: this is lucky. I've just got some opportunities.
Speaker 2: But I've.
Speaker 1: I put the effort in because I'm a big believer
Speaker 1: in paying your dues. And I think I came into
Speaker 1: media world on a level that I didn't deserve, like
Speaker 1: as in because of what I'd done. I'm sort of
Speaker 1: pitch there. If I write an article, it can be
Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper. Better journalists and
Speaker 1: I could take a long time to get an article
Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's like a very common kind
Speaker 2: of imposter syndrome, right that you think that, but it's
Speaker 2: the reality is you you that's happening because you have
Speaker 2: a level of insight that a few people have.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, when I'm talking about the stuff that I know,
Speaker 1: but that that you mentioned imposter syndrome, and I have
Speaker 1: that every single day. Every time I walk into this studio,
Speaker 1: I've got imposter syndrome thinking what the hell am I
Speaker 1: doing this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, as a great comedian, I won't name that. I
Speaker 2: was told him the same thing that I have in
Speaker 2: poster syndrome. It's like, mate, that the day that you
Speaker 2: don't feel it, there's a day you lose it. You
Speaker 2: lose it one. Well, I think we've gone through a
Speaker 2: fair few of the audience questions. I think the only
Speaker 2: one left really is this Christmas time? What's the shittest
Speaker 2: Christmas present that you've ever received?
Speaker 1: No Christmas present that's pretty lonely.
Speaker 2: But that's bad. That is bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the grandmother that keeps buying your underpants even when
Speaker 1: you're in your thirties or whatever, that type of thing,
Speaker 1: but that they're sweet, sweet presents.
Speaker 2: No, i'mndies is pretty bad. I used to get houndies
Speaker 2: and a pack of you know cards. I think for
Speaker 2: my birthday, I was like, what is this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, well, okay, wine that right back. My
Speaker 1: father wouldn't let me have a push bike till I
Speaker 1: was about thirteen. And by the time I've got the pushbike,
Speaker 1: everyone's outgrowing the pushbike. So I come out like the
Speaker 1: kids you're meant to get the push bikes at six
Speaker 1: or seven, where you've got your new shiny bike. I'm
Speaker 1: thirteen and my mates going, what your push bike? Aren't
Speaker 1: you too old for that type situation?
Speaker 2: So that yeah, why wouldn't he let you have a pushboke?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I probably did something stupid. Yeah he
Speaker 2: had his own rules.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had his own rules. But no Christmas I'm not.
Speaker 1: I get called scrooge scrooge a lot on Christmas, but
Speaker 1: I try to embrace the Christmas spirit and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wait, you're a scrooge.
Speaker 1: No I give presents, But have I got a Christmas
Speaker 1: tree up in my place yet?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: I haven't. Come on mate, Well, my kids begged me
Speaker 1: when I'd separated from my first wife, and the kids
Speaker 1: are six or seven, that that age where Christmas is
Speaker 1: important to them. I am a ship dad, I'm a
Speaker 1: ship husband. The relationships falling apart, I'm going to.
Speaker 2: Do the right thing.
Speaker 1: I'm going to buy them the biggest Christmas tree you
Speaker 1: can get in the crappy little place I was renting
Speaker 1: at the time, so I bought one of those real
Speaker 1: pine tree ones. Didn't have any tools there because they
Speaker 1: were at my ex wife's house. Had a knife and
Speaker 1: it wouldn't fit in the wouldn't fit in the that
Speaker 1: a ready place. So I've got this bread knife, you know,
Speaker 1: with a sarrayed age, trying to cut through, cut this
Speaker 1: tree down. I was there for about two or three hours.
Speaker 1: We're living near the beach. The kids just walked off,
Speaker 1: disappointed and went down to the beach, and I'm there
Speaker 1: with this Christmas tree trying to cut it down. Never
Speaker 1: have bought the live Christmas tree since then, traumatized by it.
Speaker 2: You gave it one go. I gave it my best shot.
Speaker 1: It was you try cutting down the Christmas tree or
Speaker 1: trimming up a Christmas tree with a butter knife.
Speaker 2: Luckily, I've had yeah, mum or girlfriends that have done
Speaker 2: the heavy lifting for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it is what it is. But I'm looking
Speaker 1: forward to Christmas. I get to this point at the
Speaker 1: end of the year with the podcast, I really feel
Speaker 1: like I'm about to fall over the line. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: aim for the year, and it's nice to get across
Speaker 1: the line. Delivered what we wanted to deliver. Proud of
Speaker 1: the people we've had on the podcast, had a lot
Speaker 1: of fun, learnt a lot, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can put your feet up for a little
Speaker 2: and I know that you're not going to get a
Speaker 2: call about having to go to a crime scene.
Speaker 1: And and let's face I haven't been charged this year,
Speaker 1: which is always always a good thing.
Speaker 2: Neither have I. Gary, There you go, my ico. I
Speaker 2: was on a two and a half year intensive corrections
Speaker 2: order and that finishes December twenty three, and so that
Speaker 2: as part of that, it had in writing that I
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to commit any more offenses for two and
Speaker 2: a half years. So my understanding, I haven't checked it,
Speaker 2: but my understanding is I'm allowed to go back to
Speaker 2: drug dealing from December twenty four. I can give you
Speaker 2: free legal advice. That's exactly what it means.
Speaker 1: So you just run with that, and when you get
Speaker 1: locked up, just say Gary Jubilan said, it's all right,
Speaker 1: straight yeah, yeah, that'll.
Speaker 2: Carry carry a lot of weight.
Speaker 1: But look, I gotta thank you for coming in and
Speaker 1: doing this.
Speaker 2: I think it's a yeah.
Speaker 1: As one of the guests we had on when Emily
Speaker 1: suggested this, your name came up and I'm gone, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it.
Speaker 2: My pleasure. Mate. It's been a lot of fun and
Speaker 2: I'm sure hopefully you're aians enjoyed hearing a bit more
Speaker 2: about your your backstory and some of your your your
Speaker 2: insights into all this stuff. It's normally I catch killers,
Speaker 2: but today we caught Gary. Goodbye the finish. Thanks here, mate,