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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're back with more questions for Gary from

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Speaker 2: the fans. Gary. Here's one from Brian Gary. Is it

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Speaker 2: true that you only got into podcasting because you wanted

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Speaker 2: to show people that you actually do know how to

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Speaker 2: legally record people speaking.

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Speaker 1: I like there is an irony to it, but I

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Speaker 1: lost my career in policing because I was recording conversations,

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Speaker 1: and now I do it for a living. I've got

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Speaker 1: to say I still maintain I wasn't capable of recording

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Speaker 1: recording conversations on my phone about someone showing me how

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Speaker 1: to but.

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Speaker 2: The irony you got a whole team.

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Speaker 1: Lookt I used to record on this a telephone and

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Speaker 1: now look what I've got camera. Yeah, yeah, I learned

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Speaker 1: from my mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Obviously. That was one of the questions I wrote in there.

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Speaker 2: I pretended to be one of the fans, just for

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Speaker 2: a bit of fun. But here's a real one from Jade.

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Speaker 2: Why were you called crazy fuck? I heard you referred

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Speaker 2: to this on the William Tyrrell podcast. Was that a

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Speaker 2: nickname of yours? Yes? It was. I see that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it as a term of endearment. Well

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Speaker 1: that's how I tried to explain to my kids when

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Speaker 1: that first became public. Outside the people that called me

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Speaker 1: crazy fuck that I worked with, and I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: just the irony of it. I suppose I was so

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Speaker 1: straight and normal. But my good mate Jason, he takes

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Speaker 1: great pride in initiating me crazy fucking. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you get a nickname, you can't react to it because

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Speaker 1: if you react to it, and he could see that

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Speaker 1: it irked me a little bit, so he's stuck with it,

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Speaker 1: and he'd introduced me when we go to a homicide,

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Speaker 1: a fresh homicide, this is a boss, crazy fucking roll

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Speaker 1: his eyes and give it to me for a bit

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Speaker 1: of laughter.

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Speaker 2: But on Underbelly.

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Speaker 1: It came out in Underbelly and I'm trying to explain

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Speaker 1: to my kids, why why do they call you crazy fuck?

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Speaker 1: And I'm going, ah, they're just joking.

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Speaker 2: But look, I think we need somebody in that was

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Speaker 2: involved with the actual generation of this name to see

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Speaker 2: whether there's a backstory here that you're not telling us.

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Speaker 1: I think the backstory is Jason always reckons, this is funny.

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Speaker 1: This is the dynamics of a homicide team, and it

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Speaker 1: was some of my favorite times in policing. I'd just

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Speaker 1: become a sergeant. You've got to pick a team. I've

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Speaker 1: got Jason and he was a mate though work with

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Speaker 1: on barable and a funny guy, and he'd played the

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Speaker 1: I'd be the straight guy to he's funny guy. He

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Speaker 1: always reckons, he's funnier than I am, and I gave

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Speaker 1: a more situational humor than you are. But he was

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Speaker 1: a loudmouth. I'm the introvert. And then we had Nigel,

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Speaker 1: who was a good mate of ours. Nigel was a

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Speaker 1: technical skills. We knew that because they're just bringing in

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Speaker 1: all these computers and I'm saying that Jason, we need

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Speaker 1: someone that understands computers, and he's gone, what about Nigel?

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Speaker 1: Perfect name. So we'd rock up and this is serious.

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Speaker 1: At the first briefing the homicide, we'd rock up and

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Speaker 1: the team would be introduced. This is the boss. Crazy fuck,

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Speaker 1: he's a serious one. Jason wud be saying, I'm the

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Speaker 1: funny one. I do the humor, I've got the personality,

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Speaker 1: and Nigel's a nerd. And that was a breakup of

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Speaker 1: the breakup of the team, but it was a perfect

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Speaker 1: We complemented each other.

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Speaker 2: Were you happy with how you were trayed in Underbelly?

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Speaker 2: Obviously they went for an actor, Matte Nabel that's much

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Speaker 2: better looking than you. Obviously, so they've done you a

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Speaker 2: solid there. But you what do you say? Well, I'm

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Speaker 2: just saying, come on, they've done you.

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Speaker 1: All right, all right. It's a good style of a blake.

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Speaker 1: Even my mum said she prefers Matt the meat. She

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Speaker 1: was watching it. Look, Matt, Matt is a really good

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Speaker 1: made of mind. We've come close from that. We met

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Speaker 1: before the Underbelly thing, and the writers put us together

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Speaker 1: and we just clicked right from the start. And good

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Speaker 1: friend really talented, Like it's just he's an inspirational type

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Speaker 1: of guy, and we catch up a fair bit. It's

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Speaker 1: funny when I catch up with Matt and when the

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Speaker 1: Underbelly series was playing, or around that time or shortly after,

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Speaker 1: we'd be out for a drink and people had come

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Speaker 1: up to him and start talking about how they love

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Speaker 1: the character he portrays in Underbelly, Gary Jubilin And I'm

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Speaker 1: just sitting there as just this mister anonymous, just nobody

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Speaker 1: cares about you back and then when they walk away again,

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Speaker 1: I'm the fucking real GARYT not you. But look, it

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Speaker 1: was good and it sort of.

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Speaker 2: I'm proud of.

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Speaker 1: What we did on the called the Underbelly Investigation. It

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Speaker 1: was Strikeforce Tuno, but it was a big investigation ram

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Speaker 1: for ten years. We busted our asses on it and

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Speaker 1: we got some really good results. I'm proud of it,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like to think it inspires people, Look, look

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Speaker 1: what you can do in the policing. And I think

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Speaker 1: they represented the nuances of an investigation the highs, the

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Speaker 1: layers of pressures that sort of come with that type

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Speaker 1: of investigation.

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Speaker 2: And that case evolved with the murder of Terry falcon I. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about that, because when you're

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Speaker 2: investigating the murder of someone who is a drug dealer,

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Speaker 2: or even versus someone who's civilian, or even in the

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Speaker 2: murder of a kid dies, it affect how passionate you

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Speaker 2: are about the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Look when you look at the Terrys, Terry's situation, he

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Speaker 1: had served time in prison, he was on day release.

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Speaker 1: He was abducted by people purporting to be the cops,

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Speaker 1: dressed as detectives and in uniform, and then his body

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Speaker 1: was cut up and he was hung up on a

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Speaker 1: hook and his body was cut up, his teeth, foot

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Speaker 1: pulled out, and it was a horrendous crime. No one

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Speaker 1: deserves to die like that. I know his family, and

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Speaker 1: you speak to his family. Yeah, dad had his faults,

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Speaker 1: but they loved him. And so it's not hard to

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Speaker 1: get motivation. And I think sometimes people assume, ah, well,

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Speaker 1: it's just bad guys killing bad guys. What I found

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Speaker 1: in organized crime that if you let it run too long,

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Speaker 1: innocent people get caught up in it when there's the

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Speaker 1: biky walls and stuff like that, so you can still

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Speaker 1: go after it with the same passion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you see that the news all the

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Speaker 2: time now with the Middle East and gang shooting each other,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, well, if it's just got, if

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Speaker 2: it's just internal, who cares.

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Speaker 1: And look another way? And this is the cops side

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Speaker 1: of me looking at it too. You put us in

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Speaker 1: charge of an investigation like that, you uncover other crimes.

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Speaker 1: It's a win win situation. You're solving the murder, but

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Speaker 1: you're also putting people out of action that otherwise would

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Speaker 1: have kept kept going.

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously everyone's glad that I'm not a cop myself,

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Speaker 2: including myself, but I would find if I was in

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Speaker 2: charge of investigating the murder of a pedophile. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think I'd probably feel like I'm phoning it in versus

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Speaker 2: if it was a missing child or something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I do understand that, and it must be cops would

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Speaker 2: have that mentality, have that mentality.

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Speaker 1: But I think you said a bad precedent. If you go, okay,

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Speaker 1: well we'll put resources in there. I see it, and

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Speaker 1: I'll flip it a little bit proper. Resources weren't put

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Speaker 1: into the bar of all investigation because the three Aboriginal kids,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the families told me people don't care.

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Speaker 1: I didn't believe them, but I believe it. Believe it

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Speaker 1: now the time. Then you look at the whim turial matter,

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Speaker 1: which obviously I'm heavily linked to, and the resources that

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Speaker 1: get put in there. I think we've got to look

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Speaker 1: at it from a policing point of view. All lives,

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Speaker 1: all lives matters. And if you let the gangsters start

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Speaker 1: shooting themselves, see how it's become more brazen. Before the

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Speaker 1: gangsters used to disappear like Terry. Terry was meant to

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Speaker 1: disappear and his body wasn't meant to come to the surface.

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Speaker 2: Now it's broad daylight and a car park.

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Speaker 1: And they're making statements and yeah, with that, it's only

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Speaker 1: a matter of time before innocent people are caught up

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Speaker 1: in it. So you can't have that sort of lawlessness.

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Speaker 1: But I do get what you're saying. And people when

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Speaker 1: there are children involved, like children make it harder. That's

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Speaker 1: heavier because it's just such a sad tragedy. Someone's anyone

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Speaker 1: losing their life. But when young child loss, loss of innocence,

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Speaker 1: life before them, and that life's taken away. It's a

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Speaker 1: tragic situation.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about strike Force Tuno because

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Speaker 2: I had to look it up. Tuno is the vegan

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Speaker 2: alternative for tuna, That's what it is. Yeah, who's coming

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Speaker 2: up with these shit stroke Force names?

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Speaker 1: You don't believe in Vegan?

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Speaker 2: I think there was another one. You're involved in, strike

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Speaker 2: Force Roseanne. Yeah, And I'm just my concern is there's

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Speaker 2: too many ship strike force names. What about strike force

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Speaker 2: leaping panther Okay, like strike Force roaring line or a

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Speaker 2: rampaging elephant from a crim And I'm like, hold on,

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Speaker 2: oh no, I'll be investigated by strike Force. It gives

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Speaker 2: a little fish.

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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. But the very thing that

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Speaker 1: you're saying is the reason why we had to take

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Speaker 1: it away from the police. So their random name, so

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Speaker 1: it's on the computer. Then you log in, you're setting

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Speaker 1: up a strike force, and a name spits out the

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Speaker 1: reason why they had to take it away from that,

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Speaker 1: because the raging panther like Strikeforce would be you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't, you can't.

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Speaker 2: It's just too many of you. Yeah, it's too confusing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if they are after you the magic mushroom, you

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Speaker 1: can't call Strike Force Magic Mushroom cops. And I think

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Speaker 1: there was one that was Operation Target and the crook

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Speaker 1: got shot and killed. Now that doesn't look good when

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Speaker 1: you're in the coroner, scot how did Well? It wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It's just a pure coincidence. So that's how the names

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Speaker 1: I always because you've got to type them so much too.

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Speaker 1: I like the short ones, like I like Tuno because

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Speaker 1: it's you've got to type that name so many times.

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Speaker 2: Well, so it's randomly generated. But who's created this algorithm?

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Speaker 2: Because it seems like that there's room for a happy

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Speaker 2: middle ground where they it's out a little bit tougher.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know how you complain to the governor at

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Speaker 1: the prison, Maybe maybe you could pull the pull the

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Speaker 1: leather into the police commission.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to just do you guys are solid because

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Speaker 2: if you're there trying to rouse the troops like, hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: this is a very serious investigation. Strike Force Tuno, do

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Speaker 2: you reckon?

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Speaker 1: That's why it took us ten years to catch those guys,

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Speaker 1: because we got Strike Force Tunos after you and they've gone.

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Speaker 2: The excited to get up of the morning. Yeah, what

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Speaker 2: are you working on, babe?

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Speaker 1: Well, strike force Tuna. Maybe the tone, but yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: well take your point. We might put that in the

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Speaker 1: suggestion box.

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Speaker 2: Here's a question from Lisa. If you had to choose

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Speaker 2: any detective to solve a murder, who would you choose

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Speaker 2: and why? I guess it doesn't say whether they have

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Speaker 2: to be real or fiction.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'll pick the real ones. There's some detectives that

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Speaker 1: I have utmost respect for mentors that I had that

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Speaker 1: I worked with.

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Speaker 2: Paul Jacob.

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Speaker 1: I served him the apprenticeship under him. He taught me, taught

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Speaker 1: me so much and I know, like the passion and

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Speaker 1: dedication that he has on my when he's on an investigation.

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Speaker 1: I can't emphasize how much how much he taught me.

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Speaker 1: Pam Young, who I work within homicide for years but

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Speaker 1: also lived with for years, and she was people ask

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Speaker 1: who's the toughest copy New South Wales? And I gave

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Speaker 1: Pam because she was tough mentally in that and she

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Speaker 1: was smart and she would be good one to be

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Speaker 1: on the investigation. Charlie Berzina, homicide detective from Victoria, a

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Speaker 1: fairly high profile He's another one that when I say

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Speaker 1: I've worked with Charlie. We didn't work so much when

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Speaker 1: we were in the cops because he's down in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: But we've worked on the had a look at a

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Speaker 1: couple of investigations since we've been out of the cops.

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Speaker 1: And his attention to detail, he's passionate, and yeah, his

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Speaker 1: empathy for the victims. They're the type of people I

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Speaker 1: want on the investigation. And there's some Look, there's some

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Speaker 1: great cops still in there.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: What worries me that you learn? It's every day I

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Speaker 1: came to the homicide I learned, and the last day

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Speaker 1: I was there, I'm learning, don't record a conversation on

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Speaker 1: your telephone. Who would have thought, But you're learning all

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Speaker 1: the time. You need good mentors and they create good detectives.

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Speaker 1: But they're the type of people that I want, and

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Speaker 1: people that care, people that genuinely care and roll this

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Speaker 1: leaves up and get the job done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would.

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Speaker 1: I would joke sometimes that give me a detective, destroy

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Speaker 1: their personal life and then you've got them fully committed

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Speaker 1: and not worried about anything else.

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Speaker 2: But having said that's the recruiter post.

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Speaker 1: I think that, Yeah, you're not a true detective until

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Speaker 1: you've had a divorce. Having said that, there's some great

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Speaker 1: detectives that have been able to do their work because

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Speaker 1: they've been in good relationships too, So it's give and take.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we used to joke a joke about that,

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Speaker 1: you're not really a detective until your divorce.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about these hot shots that kind of come in,

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Speaker 2: but then they lose they lose attention, they want to

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Speaker 2: go onto the next thing in a short time frame.

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Speaker 2: How do you when a case is kind of dragging out,

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Speaker 2: how do you maintain the focus and the passion for it. Well,

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Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people that do.

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Speaker 1: That's why I look for those slow burners the ones

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Speaker 1: that do, And I get frustrated with people that there

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Speaker 1: for the good times, and the good times at the

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Speaker 1: early stage is the exciting part of getting the breakthroughs

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Speaker 1: and all that, and then when the gone, they want

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Speaker 1: to walk away, and they're the people I don't respect

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Speaker 1: and the people I get frustrated with. And because of

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Speaker 1: some of the investigations I've had, they've been very long term,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm doing short term ones in between, but long

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Speaker 1: term investigations and the ones that stick with those long

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Speaker 1: term investigations. They're the ones that have got my total respect,

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Speaker 1: because there's not much reward when you're like the Falcon,

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Speaker 1: the one that was ten years, like ten years, you know,

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Speaker 1: short term satisfaction. You think, okay, start here, it's ten

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Speaker 1: years down the track before we get together a result.

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Speaker 1: You got to burn, and there's a slow burn, and

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Speaker 1: you've got to be committed. You've got to be focused,

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Speaker 1: and you've got to believe in what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I think there's probably another detective you did lift or

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Speaker 2: leave off that wish list, which is my mum, Ronnie Hamilton.

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Speaker 2: Would have been a great addition. Right. There's another question

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Speaker 2: here from Elaine Hi. Gary, another question from me. You

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Speaker 2: mentioned a few times on your one of your favorit

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Speaker 2: of books as mind Hunter by John Douglas. Can you

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Speaker 2: share any of your other favorite.

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Speaker 1: Books that mind Hunter? Explain why I enjoyed mind Hunt.

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Speaker 2: I've seen the TV series.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well we had, yeah, you know the female leading

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Speaker 1: that show, doctor An Burgess, fascinating lady and we're having

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Speaker 1: her on the podcast later. But John Douglas and the

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Speaker 1: mind Hunter, and I don't think it in the mind

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Speaker 1: Hunter TV series it was credited with John Hunter, a

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Speaker 1: different different name, but this was the start of criminal

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Speaker 1: profiling in the FBI early days, and they learned that

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Speaker 1: by speaking to serial killers and finding out what made

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Speaker 1: them tick. I read that book and my mentor that

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Speaker 1: I attribute to be my mentor, Paul Jacob. I was

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Speaker 1: re reading the book when I was a young homicide detecting.

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Speaker 1: We'd go there and I'd be talking on the way

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Speaker 1: of the crime scene, what would John Douglas do here?

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Speaker 1: And just had some fascinating insights into the way approach

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Speaker 1: approached homicide. In regards to other books I read, I

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Speaker 1: used to read read fiction, but I've sort of gone off,

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Speaker 1: gone off fiction books and non fictions. I like memoirs,

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Speaker 1: that type of thing. I like to take something from

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Speaker 1: a book, learn a little bit. I don't overload on

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Speaker 1: crime books. Sometimes I read them, sometimes I don't. But

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Speaker 1: when you're living at day to day, it's not really

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Speaker 1: the relaxation. So I like a little bit of escapism.

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Speaker 2: I'm finding it funny because I had a book come

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Speaker 2: out in August and it's in bookstores and at the

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Speaker 2: airport seeing my face in the true crime section, and

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Speaker 2: it's all these murder stories and it's just some stupid

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Speaker 2: story about a guy who was a mushroom dealer for

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Speaker 2: fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, well, I'll confess to I look to see

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Speaker 1: if my book is in the airport.

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Speaker 2: You've got to check, Gary, you go, you got to check.

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Speaker 2: You pick it up and look.

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Speaker 1: I was standing behind someone that was flicking through through

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Speaker 1: my book and then they put it back, and I

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Speaker 1: felt like I wanted to object. I object put it back,

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Speaker 1: but no, congratulations, you've got got the book out, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'll look for I was probably just looking for my book.

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Speaker 2: Not one of these days I'll be sitting next to yours. Gary.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, keep an eye out, but they won't ever

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Speaker 2: want anyone needs a stocking filler. The Profound Benefits of

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Speaker 2: a stint in prison. It's funny seeing it because sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's in true crime, sometimes it's in nonfictional biography, but

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Speaker 2: I make it could also be in the how to section.

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Speaker 2: I think as long as they put it in fiction.

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Speaker 2: A couple of my mates have been putting it in

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Speaker 2: the fiction section just to piss take me, but oh,

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Speaker 2: here we go. Yeah, this is from Alisha. It's a

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Speaker 2: two parter. So Alisha's brother has been murdered, and questions,

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Speaker 2: how do I have faith that the police will find

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Speaker 2: my brother's killer.

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Speaker 1: It's a question that gets us a lot, and since

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Speaker 1: I've left the police, the amount of calls I get

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Speaker 1: from people that were concerned about is this being investigated properly?

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Speaker 1: And that Sometimes I'll have a deep dive into it

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Speaker 1: and make suggestions. Other times I say that the families,

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Speaker 1: your responsibility for it is just how the police you deserve.

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Speaker 1: The police are there to serve the public. If you've

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Speaker 1: reported a crime, what's happening with that investigation? Don't let

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Speaker 1: them bullshit you and fob you off. You've got the

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Speaker 1: right to know. I think the police are becoming more

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Speaker 1: aware of that in regards to that than if she's listening,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you're going through that. I would make

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Speaker 1: contact with the person that's running the investigation, got responsibility

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Speaker 1: for the investigation and ask for updates.

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Speaker 2: What's the training that you guys get in terms of

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Speaker 2: the messaging around that to set expectations because there's a

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Speaker 2: huge burden on you in terms of what you say

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 1: We've got I know in New South Wales and I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming in other law enforcement areas or other states. Quite

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Speaker 1: often you have a victim liaison officer appointed on the strikeforce. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you're on my strike force, I might be the boss.

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Speaker 1: I can't speak to the victim all the time. I

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Speaker 1: might the point you keep the families informed, and that's

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Speaker 1: the point of contact. I can't stress enough for you know,

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Speaker 1: hopefully if there's any police listening to this, how much

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Speaker 1: it's respected by the victims. If you make yourself available,

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Speaker 1: like here's my phone number, you contact me anytime and

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Speaker 1: we can talk through it. These are grieving people.

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Speaker 2: You've got to know.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to be responsible for investigating the murder

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Speaker 1: of someone, put yourself out there and make yourself.

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Speaker 2: Available to the people.

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Speaker 1: But in regards to that situation, i'd make contact and

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Speaker 1: just ask for updates. I think that's you're not asking

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Speaker 1: too much. One thing Andrew that I was taught and

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Speaker 1: it was Courtney topics as parents. Courtney was shot by

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Speaker 1: police and that was a tragic situation. She was going

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Speaker 1: through a mental health episode and walk out of Hungry

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Speaker 1: Jack's carrying a knife and she was shot and killed

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Speaker 1: by police. I was in charge of running that investigation.

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Speaker 1: A critical incident investigation to see if it was justified.

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Speaker 1: And I spoke to the family initially and I left

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Speaker 1: them my number, and then it was a couple of

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Speaker 1: months later they've phoned up and they've unleashed on me.

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Speaker 1: The grandfather is unleashed on. We haven't heard from you

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Speaker 1: where my granddaughter's been killed. You haven't spoken the family.

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Speaker 1: And I apologized profusely and said, look, you had my number.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to phone you. We're working on it.

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Speaker 1: It's not a cover up, we're working on it. And

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Speaker 1: I thought you'd contacted me. I felt so bad about it.

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Speaker 1: I got in the car and drove out to their place.

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Speaker 1: It was on the weekend. Apologize, sat down in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen with them, and they told me how upset they were,

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Speaker 1: and they made the point that we don't deal with

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Speaker 1: the police a lot, and well, we never deal with

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Speaker 1: the police, and this was the first interaction we've had

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Speaker 1: with the police, and the police have shot and killed

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Speaker 1: our daughter, and we didn't think we could actually pick

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Speaker 1: the phone up and phone the detective inspector. And I

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Speaker 1: was embarrassed from my misunderstanding.

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Speaker 2: Of the situation.

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Speaker 1: And it taught me a lot that the public don't

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Speaker 1: think they can trouble the police. But I'm saying you

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Speaker 1: can trouble the police. They're public servants.

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Speaker 2: There's the second partner's question from Elisia, which was, how

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Speaker 2: can my family grieve without having answers as to why

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Speaker 2: my brother was killed? I guess does that go back

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Speaker 2: to having that commerson calling the police and having that

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Speaker 2: conversation as well.

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Speaker 1: It's keeping contact with the police and find out what's happening.

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Speaker 1: I use the word closure once when I was talking

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Speaker 1: to a family member in homicide and they jumped on

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Speaker 1: me and said, this doesn't give this closure. That you

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Speaker 1: don't get closure from murder. So I've taken that word

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Speaker 1: out of the narrative that if I'm speaking to we'll

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Speaker 1: get your closure. I understand that they want answers, and

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to think you can't have answers. I

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Speaker 1: think they can get some solace in the fact if

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Speaker 1: they know the police have done everything possible. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine how family feels if they well, I can imagine

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Speaker 1: because I've seen it time and time again, families that

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Speaker 1: I've dealt with where the police haven't done everything possible

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Speaker 1: to find their loved one and it infuriates them, it

434
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: upsets them, it keeps that pain running. So the reality

435
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 1: of the world is that not every murder will be solved.

436
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 1: But if you know that the people responsible for finding

437
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: out who's murthered you love one have done everything humanly possible,

438
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: it makes it that little bit easier. I think so.

439
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: And the pain that people go through when they can't

440
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: find the bodies of their loved one. And I've seen

441
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: that Colin Walker, one of the Bearable Children, we haven't

442
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 1: found her body, and that traumatizes thirty almost thirty years

443
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 1: down the track, still traumatizing, traumatizing the family, Matthew Levison's

444
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: family for ten years. On weekends they go to the

445
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: National Park with a pick and shovel and just dig

446
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: around the National Park looking for the body. That's the

447
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: type of pain we're talking about.

448
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you can't want to know, Yeah.

449
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: You want that want that understanding of what happens. So

450
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: if police understand the impact, I think they'll do the

451
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: right job. You've got to have empathy. I think that's

452
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: a and all the good detectives that I know. And

453
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: it's funny when I sit down and speak to people

454
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: I look up to and they talk. You know, what's

455
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: a trade of a good detective empathy And it's a

456
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: simple thing, but it's so important.

457
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: Sure, but I think you know a lot of people.

458
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: You get into the police force and you might sign

459
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 2: up through a job, but then you don't realize that

460
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: all these other bits are the moving parts of it.

461
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: You know, you're almost trying to be a counselor or

462
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: a therapist on the side actually trying to catch the killer.

463
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: Well that and I've seen people that have gone too

464
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: far that way, Like I've had people that have been

465
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: what the families want. I think they want a hard

466
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: ass homicide detectives that's going to go go for the killer.

467
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: And I've had to pull some people back that they

468
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: get too emotionally involved with the family. And you want

469
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: to help that family. You work as hard as you

470
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: can to find the killer that will bring comfort. So

471
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: that it's that fine line. But you've got to keep

472
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 1: the lines of communication open because there's a lot of

473
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: trust that families put in you if you're investigating a murder.

474
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're not there to be a social worker.

475
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: You've got to be ruthless in the way that you

476
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: go to solve the solve the crime.

477
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: All this stuff you're talking about with with wind Hunter,

478
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 2: and there's obviously huge growth in understanding criminal psychology. Where

479
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: are the are there areas that are kind of the

480
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: new ground in terms of policing, that are the hot

481
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: the hot topics. I mean, yeah, I don't even know how.

482
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: If I was still drug dealing now, it would be

483
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: so much harder because there's no ATMs where well, who's

484
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 2: paying cash for drugs anymore?

485
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: I've wondered. I've wondered that because I wouldn't know about

486
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: the drug industry, but I've often wondered, like, how do

487
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: you go score from your dealer? Do you have a

488
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: card machine?

489
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: Because I don't want to leave it it's getting hard

490
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: or four years ago, so I know, now, what would

491
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: you do? Yeah, you'd have to have a square reader

492
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: plus machine. But there's so too much for a paper trailer.

493
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: I don't know, but everything, everything leaves a trail, like

494
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: it really does. I get in the car to go

495
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: to the gym in the morning, the phone's telling me

496
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: how far I'm away from the place I'm going to.

497
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: And then yesterday I got in the car and normally

498
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: I go to a licensed premises on that particular day.

499
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: It said, I'm five minutes away from this particular particular place,

500
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, oh god, I got to check this phone.

501
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: There was an amazing story a couple of years ago.

502
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: I think it was in like the Manly Daily. There

503
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: was a woman who followed he a GPS and drove

504
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,239
Speaker 2: like right off a wharf. I think we're trusting too

505
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: much in techniclo.

506
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: Well, we got to We've gotta wind it back. But yeah,

507
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: I think for being a crook, it's going to be hard.

508
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: And we're policing, you need to be one step ahead

509
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: of head of the crooks because quite often the crooks

510
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: changed their m and if we can get to get

511
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: ahead of them. Look look at that the phone sting

512
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: that generated from America.

513
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, that happened. The ANIM takedown happened the exact

514
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: same day that I got arrested. And so when I

515
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: was in prison, people thought that I was a much

516
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: bigger dealer than I was because they thought that I

517
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: was part of the ANIM takedown. Right, that would have

518
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: given you some street credit. It was just funny timing.

519
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, for anyone doesn't know, Yeah, there was this

520
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: app called ANOM that I think was creative by the FBI.

521
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: And then it was like through a whole bunch of

522
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: like crimson snitches and informants. It was past the carriage

523
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: to be used by the criminal fraternity. And so there

524
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: was all these like major operators using it and the

525
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: colleagues everything.

526
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: They everyone thought that was incated. But yeah, it's a

527
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: scary time for criminals.

528
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: I was. I thought like when on my phone got taken,

529
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's it's locked. I don't think

530
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: you can get in.

531
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: But they got bacticle you to get the past.

532
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: I didn't. They didn't. I think they could have even

533
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: held it in front of my face. They could have

534
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: got in, but they didn't try that. They didn't. They

535
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: didn't do anything like that. But they got like we

536
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 2: cell bride or whatever it's called. They get. They got

537
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 2: into some stuff and that was embarrassing enough. They had

538
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: like a text from me to my mate saying like

539
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: hey man, can you bring over the bat phone? And

540
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: I had like a bit in court that that was

541
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: like the batphone was my nickname for my drug phone.

542
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, so the second stuff, if I.

543
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: I can relate, I've had my phone, So yeah, if

544
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: you take things out of context, sometimes it looks embarrassing.

545
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. So yes, I was there thinking hopefully they

546
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 2: can't get in, but they got They didn't get everything,

547
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: but they get enough. Yeah. Yeah, that you have a

548
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: sticky situation in court. I explain it. When you're saying

549
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: that you know things to your friends and family or

550
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: you know, and an off color joke, and then you've

551
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: got to read it out in court, it would say

552
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: way worse.

553
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was something in the news the other day

554
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: about some gang length stuff and I'm even sure which.

555
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: State, but.

556
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: Stuff was being read out the text messages on the

557
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: phone in court and it was someone ship bagging the

558
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: crew he was working with.

559
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: So that would be embarrassing, so embarrassing, like Fellas, in context,

560
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: it wouldn't sound so bad, you know.

561
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: I was just.

562
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you didn't get the You know that

563
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: I was being sarcastic if you can't pick that up

564
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: from a text. We've got a few questions here about

565
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: the podcast. So if you've done over what you've done,

566
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of episodes, Now, which interview has surprised

567
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: you the most? Is there some that have stuck out?

568
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: Well, pay tribute to you? Are you saying the best podcast.

569
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, obviously I would have to be up there, sure.

570
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: I mean you've talked to people on this podcast from

571
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: all walks of life. Yeah. I think that's one of

572
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: the cool things about this podcast is that you know,

573
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: you've also You've got a lot of guys that have

574
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: found themselves on the wrong side of the law that

575
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: come in here and talk about that perspective as well.

576
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: I think that's very cool.

577
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: I find I really find it interesting sitting down speaking

578
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: to people and thinking, you know people, but until you

579
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: sit down, you don't get the full sense of it.

580
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: And I've been very fortunate the cross section of people.

581
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: I don't it's like saying, which is your favorite child?

582
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: One podcast? I was nervous about doing a turn round.

583
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: I had a great time with Grace Tame. That my

584
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: perception of Grace in the media that was a very intense,

585
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: intense person, and I reading the book, I'm thinking, there's

586
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: so much more to Grace Tame than I didn't realize.

587
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: And came in there and I thought, your stuff up

588
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: with Grace and she's.

589
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: Going to unleash on you. She's got a great sense

590
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: of humor as well.

591
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: Oh, it was funny, funny, funny lady, and I really

592
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: enjoyed that. So that was one that surprised me because

593
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be intense and I

594
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: really prepared for it. And then when we got got

595
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: in the room, others some amazing, amazing stories that I've heard,

596
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: stories of survival and different people that spend time in

597
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: time in prison and they come through it. And I'm

598
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: talking overseas prisons. One of the guests that blew me

599
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: away was Rob Langdon. He spent seven years in Kabul

600
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: prison in Afghanistan as the next Army soldier, So you

601
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: can imagine the time he had with ISIS and that

602
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: in there so so many people and I honestly can't

603
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: say like a favorite one I enjoy. I realize how

604
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: fortunate I am every time I come in and sit

605
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: down and have a chat with people.

606
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think a lot of Aussie crims will

607
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: winge about Australian prisons. It can get a lot worse.

608
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, like a prison in Thailand. And there

609
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: was one bloke, Key's an English English guy, Billy Moore.

610
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: I watch He's watch his movie A movie years ago.

611
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: I think it was called that prayer before Dawn.

612
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: And I have seen that.

613
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the myy Tie guy. I watched the movie and

614
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm hosting the podcast, I could reach out

615
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: to him, got him on and hearing his story, and

616
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: I watched the movie and I always thought they would

617
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: be fascinating and got him in. Thought, well, it fits

618
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: right in the genre of Yeah, I catch killers and

619
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: the story when he was over in Bangkok and the survival,

620
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: how people survive those situations, and then some cops that

621
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: I sit down and speak to. It just makes me

622
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: sad that I want to be back in the cops

623
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: when they're telling a cops story and going, yeah, that's cool.

624
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: And I've been taken back into that world and people

625
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: that I admire and I think I would love to

626
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: work with that person.

627
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 2: Are there any guys who you put away who you

628
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: thought like under different circumstances, this guy would have been

629
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: a great guy to have a beer with.

630
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, There's plenty of people, and I won't

631
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: name names or get them in trouble, but when I

632
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: sit down and have a chat with them, it's that

633
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: sliding door moment where their lives are gone this way.

634
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: I've gone that way and then you know, we're fortunate

635
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: enough that we can come back and speak to them.

636
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 1: Even with murderers and people, I choose my words carefully

637
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: here because the consequences of murderer are horrific, but people

638
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: often say, no, murderers should get bail or they're risks

639
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: to society. What I've learned investigating homicides, every murder is different.

640
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: And you know, Sarah or the forensic psychologists would always

641
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: tell me that just because this person's done a bad

642
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: thing doesn't make them a bad person. And that's a

643
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: simple philosophy, and it's from a very smart lady, but

644
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: it's something that I've really learned from that we all

645
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: make mistakes. You make mistakes, I make mistakes. It's how

646
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: you react after the mistakes. We're talking about my mate

647
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: Rob Carlton, who you know through the comedy festivals, and

648
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: he makes a point that you're not defined by what's

649
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: happened right now, it's who you were before and what

650
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: happens after. And that's a good way of looking at

651
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: life too. I think that, yeah, at some point in time,

652
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: we're all going to be down and feeling bad to

653
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: bear ourselves, but what have you done before let's see,

654
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: you've got some credit points there, and what are you

655
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: going to do in the future.

656
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: You must have had, I guess a similar situation to

657
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: me when all the shit hit the fan and you

658
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: left the police force. Is that you know, there's people

659
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: who you thought were your mates. There's people that you

660
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: thought were going to be there when she hits a

661
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: fan that had nowhere to be seen. Yeah, but I

662
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: found on the flip side, there's also people that surprise you,

663
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: people that come and have your back that you never expected.

664
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I one hundred percent on that, and I

665
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: was surprised, Like I probably at that point, I probably

666
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't have picked some of the reactions. I thought there

667
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: was some stand up people, and they've been shown to

668
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: be just weak gathered, you know, just couldn't even come

669
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: in and say hello to me when I'm in the

670
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: room for three months. That these are people that mates,

671
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: that have been working with for twenty years. And there's

672
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: other people that have reached out if anything I can

673
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: do the help that made such a difference. So I

674
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: lost I lost a lot of friends through it. And

675
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: then there's others like I paid tribute to I mentioned

676
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: Paul Jacob, I mentioned him a lot. Maddie Moss is

677
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: another bloke and Nick Kaldos's deputy commissioner, and he retired

678
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: as shortly before the ship hit the fan with me,

679
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: and he fumed me up and said, Jubes, I'm walking

680
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: into court with you. And that's him putting his without

681
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: even asking what this was all about. He just said,

682
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm walking in the court with you. So I'm walking

683
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: in with my mentor, Paul Jacob Nick Kaldos, a deputy commissioner,

684
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: and Maddie Moss that I worked with in homicide. And

685
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: I can't say how much that meant to me because

686
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, walking in these are people that I respect

687
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: and they're walking in support me, and there's a lot

688
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: of other people that are behind the scenes of have

689
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: supported me.

690
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: I found, yeah, that I had that feeling of that

691
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: I was let down by people that I thought would

692
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: be there, but then people surprised me and so really

693
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: we're just going through Shiit just is a great clarifier

694
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: where you stand with people. Well.

695
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: It has freedom out to a degree because before I'd

696
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: feel obliged that.

697
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: You know, you gather a send off or whatever.

698
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: I think I've been to two police functions in the

699
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: past six years, and I'm happy with that. I'm happy

700
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: with that. If I if I make an effort to

701
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: gather a function, that's because I really support this person

702
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: and this person's supported me.

703
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 2: So it sounds like I get invited to more police functions.

704
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: I reckon, I reckon there'd be I reckon, there'd be

705
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: more surveillance on me than on you.

706
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've swapped ross. I was invited to perform stand

707
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: up for Christmas last year at a at a Victorian

708
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 2: police station.

709
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: But they you prick, you are getting invited to more.

710
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 2: So. Yes, most of my paid corporate gigs so far

711
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: have been have been government events like mostly criminal justice

712
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: system once.

713
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: But I see I look a look at you and

714
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: flipping it. See how I've just worked this round and

715
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: now I'm coming to the master plan. This is all

716
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: a set up. We're going to get you to confess.

717
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: But the systems worked for you, hasn't it. You got caught,

718
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: you got punnies, and you've turned your life around.

719
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that the thing that the prison experience

720
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: really wasn't the thing that changed me. It was the

721
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: impact it had in my friends and family that was

722
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: the difference, and so I think if I had got

723
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: up an environment where everyone I knew was already in prison,

724
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: or I didn't have any friends and family, then I

725
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: don't know if it would have been as strong a

726
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: dis incentive. Okay, because because I had a pretty good

727
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: time in prison, I've got traded great and so I

728
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: think that it was the thing that changed me was

729
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: yet I didn't want to be so selfish just to

730
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: hurt my friends and family anymore.

731
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think, and therein might be the difference

732
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: where people that can't break the break the shackles or

733
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: start to go in the different directions in life, you

734
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: had people around you supporting you, so you can have

735
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: sympathy for and empathy for the people that didn't have

736
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: that support. You could understand if you went in that

737
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: world and you didn't have the family and that.

738
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: For you totally. I think another thing was just opening

739
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: my eyes to how many guys that were in prison

740
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: who you felt like the writing was probably on the

741
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: wall since they were a kid. They just grew up

742
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: an environment where this was always the way that they

743
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: were going to end up. And for me, growing up

744
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 2: with privilege and being well educated, I just felt like

745
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: I felt like more of a kockhead for bending up there.

746
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: So that was another reason.

747
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's some shame that comes with that that

748
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: I can't say you didn't understand m childhood.

749
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally was. I was to go out and

750
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: do something better than that.

751
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: But look, I think I think it's worked in your situation.

752
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: I think that is a system system working. Where it's

753
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: sad is if you've gone in there with that attitude

754
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: and the system was that rough to you, and that

755
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: that tough that you've you've come out worse than what

756
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: you went in.

757
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 2: Yep, that's and you would.

758
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: It's a horrible place, isn't I did that series Breaking

759
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: Badness and spent time in that maximum security prison and

760
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: spent a couple of weeks there, and you're just it's

761
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: groundhog Day, isn't it? Every every day? And you can

762
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: see how it breaks people.

763
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: Mentally groundhog Day? And then you know, you have guys.

764
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: I'd be in the yard with guys saying that when

765
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: they got out, they're going to change their life, and

766
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: when they were had to come back, and then a

767
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: couple of years later they're back in because Yeah, for

768
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: a lot of guys, they get out and then they

769
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 2: forget what it was like in there.

770
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough, tough world. I think we

771
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: can do the prisons better.

772
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: I think it is pretty cool when I do my

773
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: stand up shows now, I'll have a lot of people

774
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: involved with the criminal justice system on both sides coming.

775
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: So I'll have a lot of lawyers, but also cops,

776
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: prison officers, but also crims, either like past or current, Yeah, crims.

777
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes I'll have like twenty blike's kind of

778
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 2: my show to support me, which is like a lovely

779
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: But I do get messages from people sometimes to say

780
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: that they did some prison time and they've moved on

781
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: with their life, but it's it's their secret shame they

782
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 2: don't talk about it. Yeah, and so they think it's

783
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 2: very cool that I kind of own the fuck out

784
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 2: of it and do and make jokes about it because

785
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: I'm trying to. I'm just kind of I'm weaponizing I mean,

786
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm empowering myself with it. But also I think hopefully

787
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to desigmatize it a little bit, to be like,

788
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: you can have that happen, but you're allowed to move

789
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: on with your life. Yeah.

790
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a good thing. And a skill

791
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: that you have is to be able to laugh at yourself.

792
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: I could have really bottled up when I was publicly

793
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: publicly shamed and different things, but I can have a

794
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: laugh about it. One of my great decisions was when

795
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: I got sense that, or before I got sense, they

796
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: want do an article in the paper, and I said, yeah,

797
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: I'm happy, happy to do it. And I've said inter

798
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: view and I'd prefer to go to jail and pay

799
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: a fine. And then they've got a photo of me

800
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: standing on Couldjie Beach with Marm's cross staring, and it

801
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: was on the front page of the paper on the weekend,

802
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: and I've gone, that's not good.

803
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: Margaret just shortened the quota, just says I would rather

804
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: go to jail. And it's like I think it was.

805
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: Margaret Canerian text me and gone, I've represented easier client.

806
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: She was a my Barrissa or whatever.

807
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: But having said that, I was comfortable with that and

808
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: what I meant by that, and I was true to

809
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: my word. And some people might say I'm stupid and

810
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: I am stupid, and they might I know I'm stupid,

811
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,959
Speaker 1: but it was a matter of principle. For fuck's sake.

812
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: I was doing police work. If you're going to find me,

813
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: send me to jail if I'm that bad, and it was, Yeah,

814
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: I can imagine how that's received in the legal fraternity.

815
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: But I feel good about that. I was not going

816
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,240
Speaker 1: to take a knee for what I did, and I

817
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: I could have had an easier path out of there.

818
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 1: I could have just gone, I'm sorry, I've boots stressed,

819
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm working on this all that. No, I dug myhills

820
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: in the Yeah, people might say to my detriment, but

821
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: I can live for myself if I if I took

822
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: the knee and apologized, I don't think I'd look myself

823
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: in the mirror and be happy with what I'm saying.

824
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: The media do like they'll sensationalize it. I know, I know.

825
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 2: I got stitched up. Recently. I was in some expos

826
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: a about cocaine, and I was just making the point

827
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: that when I'm with the lockout laws, a lot of

828
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: people gone to just having house parties, and people was

829
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 2: saving the money that they had been on alcohol and

830
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: buying drugs. Right, And so then the article had in

831
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: like big, a big quote for me, in a big

832
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: photo for me in the Daily telegraphs saying cheaper to

833
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: do coke than beer and maybe sound like the worst

834
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: financial advisor in the world.

835
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: Again if things taken out of context. But yeah, it's

836
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: you've got to choose your words carefully, haven't you? When

837
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: I do TV work that you might be recorded for

838
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: an hour or so, and knowing that they're only going

839
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: to be using sixty seconds or two minute grab from

840
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 1: sixty minutes of footage. So you've got to be careful

841
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: and you do learn dealing with the media.

842
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: Eventually, Yeah, you do after you gets stung a few times.

843
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: A couple of highs and layers. Let's talk about your

844
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 2: personal life.

845
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: Talking about highs and layers.

846
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: So what kind of weird stuff are you into? Yoga?

847
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 2: Meditation that's not weird stuff?

848
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, saunas, yoga, meditation, boxing.

849
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, what else do you have in kale juices? You

850
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: don't drink coffee, you're drinking herbal teas.

851
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: I like smoothies. But this is the way I approach

852
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: fitness and the healthy life sotyle. I think there's got

853
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: to be balanced. So starts off with I'll do yoga

854
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: and meditation, but I also like the box, so I

855
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: like to get hit I like to hit things, but

856
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: I like to sit there and chant. So it's about balance.

857
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: People think I'm obsessed with my fitness. I just I

858
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: train so I can live the life the way I

859
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: want to live it, if that makes sense. And yeah,

860
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: we're all I drink like it's not I'm not. No,

861
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: I'm pure. I'm not going to drink. I don't go

862
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: down that path. I just want to have moderation in

863
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: the way that I approach my life. So some people, but.

864
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 2: You were never the cliche of the grizzled detective waking

865
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 2: up hungover. You're only getting up early to do us

866
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: to do down with dog with the sun rising.

867
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: A couple of a couple of funny times, like because

868
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: we're traveling so much in homicide and you're always traveling.

869
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: That was one country town. I forget where it was.

870
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm down by the river and I'm doing chigung, which

871
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: is like a slow moving taie chee type.

872
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: I've seen Chinese ladies doing this in the park.

873
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm down there and you've gotta

874
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: love country Australia. One blake just walks up to me.

875
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: So I'm just in the middle of the movement, just

876
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, center centering everything. What are you doing? Mate?

877
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: It looks weird?

878
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: Shit, what are you doing?

879
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: Country thing?

880
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: And another time we've Jason, we're gone out west of Dubbo.

881
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: Once you go west of Dubbo, it's really getting into that.

882
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the outback type era.

883
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: And we're driving along. I said, can you stop the

884
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: car for a moment and he said yeah, and I

885
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: get out of the car. I'm just standing in this

886
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: paddic or. It was just a dry sort of area,

887
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: just standing taking in the silence. I was really enjoying it.

888
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: It was just had a chaoic time. What the fuck

889
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: are you doing? Then he put on the police sirah,

890
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: the reckless serenity.

891
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: But look, it's help. It's helped me, it's helped me.

892
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: I read an article which said that five hundred and

893
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: eighty one crimes go and sold in New South Wales

894
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 2: every month due to police officers wasting time on breath

895
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: work and meditation when they should be serving a crime.

896
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: Okay, how will I respond to that bullshit? There's a

897
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: lot I'd say that more than I'm looking at the figures,

898
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: probably more crimes are doing that. They're probably playing on

899
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: their phone at balances. At balances, I got through homicide

900
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: as long as I did, and I didn't take time

901
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: off when I was at work. I turned up every

902
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: day because when I was knowing I'm spinning out of control,

903
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: that was my release. Sometimes I had to sit there

904
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: and meditate. Other times I'd had to walk in the

905
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: gym and get the shit punched out of me to

906
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: just take my mind of what I'm doing. But it

907
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: worked for me. It doesn't work for everyone. But what

908
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: I find really interesting. When I first started doing it,

909
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: people thought I was weird. It was almost like you

910
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: don't trust a blake that doesn't drink. You don't trust

911
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: a blake he does chiggle.

912
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: So my mum always said, you never trust a skinny chef.

913
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the same thing. But I think people are

914
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: more accepting of it now. And when I use to

915
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: go to a yoga retreat or whatever, people would be

916
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: sitting there and yeah, you're talking, and what do you do?

917
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm a policeman and everyone just looking just what the hell?

918
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: But now it's the norm. Yeah, so I was ahead

919
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: of my time.

920
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: Here's another question from Brian Garry. Is it true that

921
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: you had a full head of hair? When you started

922
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: with the cops. But a strand fell out every time

923
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: you pissed off one of your former wives or girlfriends.

924
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: That's a loaded, loaded question. I didn't have that many

925
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: wives and girlfriends. When you look back, it's over a

926
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: long period of time. When my hair started falling out,

927
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: you get to that point do you do the shave

928
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: or not do the shaven? And when I've decided to

929
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: do the shave, or away with a group of friends,

930
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: surfing trip or whatever, and one of the mates, the

931
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: wives or girlfriends, said I've got some clippers in there,

932
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: why don't we shave? And it was enlightening all of

933
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: a sudden. You're not worried about being baled. Here you're bald.

934
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: What are you going to do about it?

935
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: It's quite free.

936
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is free. It's a little bit confronting at first,

937
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: but once you do it, life goes on. Like when

938
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: you're losing your hair, there's nothing worse. And I see

939
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: blakes going through it, and I know they're going through it.

940
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you poor bastard. You'll be thinking life's not

941
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: worth living. If I've got no hair, shave it off

942
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 1: and you go, oh, well, here I am.

943
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: You've got a head that suits a bald head though, Well.

944
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: That I was I wasn't. I wasn't going to say

945
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: that because you don't know until your shave, because you

946
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: don't know what sort of shape you've you've got.

947
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: True. Yeah, I don't want to see a photo of

948
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 2: Gary with hair. It was.

949
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: It was long, curly hair, and I miss it. The

950
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: thing I miss is having haircuts because I like to go.

951
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: You could sit and have a haircut, you know, when

952
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: you're just got a shitty day or stuff it, I'll

953
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: get a haircut. Well, you can't really do that. I

954
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: haven't got many options.

955
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: But you had hair when you first started the copper Yeah, yeah,

956
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: yeah had hair.

957
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: In regards to the girlfriends and wives, yes, I've had

958
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: a few.

959
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well you said before. You know, you're not good

960
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: tchechnive unless you've gone through a couple of divorces. Yeah.

961
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: Some of the best cases were solved when I was

962
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: just a lonely guy at home. We've nothing to do. Look,

963
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: I've had I've had some great relationships, and everyone I've

964
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: been with I've got something from the relationship. Why they

965
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: break down? People always want me to say, well, it's

966
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: a pressure of work. Sometimes it's a pressure of work.

967
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just grow apart because work is demanding and

968
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: you give yourself, give yourself to that. But I don't

969
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 1: know if I've.

970
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: Learned well, I mean that was my next question is

971
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 2: now you're, what six six years out of five years

972
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: out of the force. Do you think that that has

973
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: changed your ability to maintain a relationship because you not

974
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: have this drive to solve a murder everybody a couple

975
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: of days.

976
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: It definitely makes me a better catch in that that

977
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: you're more available, more available because before I would be

978
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: hard pressed not to turn the phone off.

979
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: I can now get to the point where I, yeah,

980
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: that's not it's not just like a time thing. But

981
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: also imagine an emotional availability thing. If you're if I'm

982
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: mentally bogged down in someone's murder, it'd be hard to

983
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: kind of unplug from that and go out for dating.

984
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: Yet well, one hundred percent, and sometimes you get home

985
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: and where do you want to have dinner? Well, I

986
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: don't care, like just that that type of thing I

987
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: in my my work life was very challenging. I tend

988
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: to the relationships I've been in, They've been challenging and rewarding.

989
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: So it's sort of the highs and the lowers. I

990
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 1: like the passionate relationships which can end very badly sometimes.

991
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: Let me tell you my ex fiance dubbed me into

992
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: the cops and I got center present, So.

993
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: No point the winch What I have learned, and this

994
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: is jeezus last hit him over the head enough times

995
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: he starts to learn. The ship that went down in

996
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: the the Cops made me realize the importance of the

997
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: people that I needed to rely upon, the people close

998
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: to me, the people that supported me, family, friends and

999
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: all that, and relationships. No matter what, if you're in

1000
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: a good relationship, life's pretty good, and I understand the

1001
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: importance of it. That's what I want from life. I

1002
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: want a good relationship because no matter how much success

1003
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: you have or rewards you're getting from work, if you

1004
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: come home and there's no one there, it's a pretty

1005
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: lonely place. And I've spent a lot of time, a

1006
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: lot of time on my own and sometimes you're on

1007
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: the high from work you've come home. Fuck yeah, you've

1008
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: become like that cliche of the homicide bloke eating a

1009
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: pizza and a cold beer sort of thing.

1010
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that leads us on to our next

1011
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: question game. Quite a few women have written in to

1012
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: ask if you are single, what's the relationships staff of

1013
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: Gary Jervalin. It's classified.

1014
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 1: It's classified at this stage. I'm in a good place

1015
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: at the moment. I'm gonna tiptoe around this, around this question.

1016
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: I've had my highs and lowers since I've left the cops,

1017
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: reading to that what what you want? But I'm finding

1018
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,959
Speaker 1: a pathway through. It's very mysterious a politician, I finding

1019
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: the pathway. Is there any phone numbers there?

1020
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: Check the Instagram. Look, I'm yeah.

1021
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: You can make so many mistakes in life, and then

1022
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: you've got to wake up yourself. I'm hoping that I'll

1023
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: get it right in the future.

1024
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, some checks would have just been into

1025
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: you when you were a cop, because they it's a

1026
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: fantasy thing. But you're not that anymore so, not that

1027
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: you're just a.

1028
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: Podcast sad if I'm walking around going I used to

1029
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: be a cop.

1030
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: I used to be uniform. So yeah, you're right, that's

1031
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: a hard, hard show. You've still got a photo of

1032
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: you in your uniform and you're on your Tinder bio.

1033
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: I've never gone down that path no dating apps. Not

1034
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: Look what the phone got me into. It got me charged.

1035
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm not touching that thing that would that would end

1036
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: in disaster. Okay, so I stick clear of that. But no,

1037
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: you've made a good point.

1038
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: What what do you do?

1039
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 1: I do a podcast. We'll say that's everyone else. I've

1040
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: got to work on the line more interesting.

1041
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 2: I mean, chicks seek every dude, every white dude has

1042
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 2: a podcast.

1043
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well everyone's got a podcast. Okay, got to

1044
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: come up with something.

1045
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: Listen to it.

1046
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: Actually, so you can. Have you played the line that

1047
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: now that you've written the book, you're an author.

1048
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: That's that has to be I still haven't tried that one.

1049
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: It's still it still seems very surreal that I wrote

1050
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 2: a book. So it's only been a few months. But

1051
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 2: I'm okay, we'll get get into that because just you've

1052
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: got to.

1053
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: Tailor it to the now. I'm an author, a writer.

1054
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: A comedian. Doesn't sound that oppressive. That's a that's a

1055
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 2: pretty I'm in the performing arts.

1056
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: What but isn't that? Isn't that what they say? Like

1057
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: what the women look for, it's not the looks. That's

1058
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:03,959
Speaker 1: a man that can make them make them laugh.

1059
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: So sure, I'm sure you can. Yeah, but I think

1060
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 2: that they want that like at home, they wanted a

1061
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: guy who's making it for you, like I don't know

1062
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: that on stage doing it for everyone else.

1063
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just embarrassing.

1064
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: You were talking about Pam before and relationship with Pam.

1065
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 2: I saw you'd had her on this podcast previously, and

1066
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: she had mentioned that you were a generous lover. Good

1067
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 2: on you, Gary, that I wasn't sure where that answered.

1068
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 2: I wanted that. Yeah, but she also said that you

1069
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: were prone to answering your phone in the throes of passion,

1070
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 2: Gary Andrew, can't you call them back in two minutes?

1071
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 2: Well two minutes?

1072
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: Let her go to it, won't I'm not going to

1073
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: say how long it it take before I call him back.

1074
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: That's but good line of question that you almost tripped

1075
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: me into that. It wouldn't have been two minutes, would

1076
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: have been ten minutes. Good good questioning.

1077
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 2: But you used to do that.

1078
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did, and I'm not proud of it. I'm

1079
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: not mate, I'm not proud of it. But Pam was

1080
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: a homicide detective too, so she would under understand.

1081
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, whatever rocks you, Baace. Even though most dedicated

1082
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: of cops is allowed to have a few minutes to themselves.

1083
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: Surely that was I was a lunatic in the just

1084
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: find me any time, I'll answer, Yeah, okay, I'm embarrassed

1085
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: by that. Well, you know, and I did publicly apologize

1086
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: to Pam and anyone else I've insulted.

1087
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: For well, I was probably a good thing that you're

1088
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: not on Tinder, because it would be like just photos

1089
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 2: of you were to say generous lava as long as

1090
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: the phone doesn't ring.

1091
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you talk about the media. And my kids

1092
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: sent me this and they're gone, Dad, like as an embarrassment.

1093
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: Top cops with bedroomantics or whatever.

1094
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: The headlight just what they thought I could have get

1095
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 2: any work?

1096
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: Can you shut up, Dad?

1097
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: Stop it?

1098
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, that wasn't wasn't a proud moment for my kids.

1099
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: So now you're in a position where you're not in

1100
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: the cops. So whatever relationships you get into now it's

1101
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 2: a different version of you.

1102
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: It is a different version, but a more relaxed version.

1103
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that I can control my life now.

1104
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: Now that's something that I didn't realize when I was

1105
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: in the cops. That now, when I'm basically working for myself.

1106
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: I can choose when I work. If someone wants me

1107
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 1: to do a talk, I don't have to ask for permission,

1108
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 1: And so I feel like I've got control of my life.

1109
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: If I want a holiday, I can plan for it.

1110
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: In the cops, you couldn't plan for those type of things.

1111
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: So I think I'm a Is this am I doing

1112
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: a sales pitch like cook a beautiful meal?

1113
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1114
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: No, I'm a better person than I was when I

1115
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: was in the Cops. I still liked the person I

1116
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: was in the Cops. I was dedicated and all that,

1117
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: but I've got or freedom now, and I think people

1118
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: that know me see me as more relaxed now than

1119
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: the intensity that you had to carry as a homicide detective.

1120
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: Do you looking back at your career and I guess

1121
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: the way you left the force you have regrets around it.

1122
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 1: My regret and I've said this before, and when I

1123
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: say it, I don't want people to misinterpret it. But

1124
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: if I knew that my career was going to end

1125
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: the way it did, I went hard on the wim

1126
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: turial investigation. If I knew it was just going to

1127
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: be ripped away, I would have gone even harder and

1128
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: I'm not making any apologies for the way I led

1129
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: the investigation and my regrets. I promise the as we've

1130
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: talked about, I promise the biological family and the foster

1131
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: family that I would do everything humanly possible to find

1132
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: out what's happened to Wim, and that opportunity was taken

1133
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: away from it. I feel like I've let them down.

1134
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: And there were other investigations too that have been pulled

1135
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: off and haven't done any handover and all that, and

1136
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: that hurts me. That's if I've got regrets, they're the

1137
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: regrets I've got that I didn't finish. While I set

1138
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: out the start having said that I will help these

1139
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: people in any way I can outside the cops, that

1140
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: commitment didn't end at the moment I walked out the door.

1141
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: I didn't go, oh, well, it's nothing to do with me.

1142
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: I spend that much time on the phone speaking to

1143
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: people that have got problems where we investigations, and that

1144
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: I haven't got the contacts in the police, which is

1145
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: sad because I could filter them through if I had

1146
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: the contacts in the police and say, hey, look, I've

1147
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: been speaking to this person. I think there could be

1148
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: something in it. I would love to have that relationship

1149
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: with the police, but there's no one I can pick

1150
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: up and speak to, pick up a phone and speak

1151
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: to in the police. So I'm dealing with traumatized people now,

1152
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: even though I'm outside the cops and trying to help

1153
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: them and point them in a direction. And I'd like

1154
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: to help every one of them, but it's got to

1155
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: the point where I can't. I can't keep up with

1156
00:57:59,560 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: it all.

1157
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that doesn't sound like a very a very

1158
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 2: annoying roadblock for the wheels of justice. If you've got

1159
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: this information, you just want to pass it on.

1160
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: Surely the whole thing is about getting getting justice. I

1161
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: just want to do the podcast. I don't want to

1162
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: do this stuff, but these people are genuine and they're

1163
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: reaching out to me, so I help them where I can.

1164
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: It must be hard to have that kind of relationship

1165
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: with the police force when you've given so much to

1166
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: it for so long.

1167
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: It's a mind fuck if you ever think it. So

1168
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: I just laugh about it and think I've got good memories.

1169
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: I know the people that respect me and the people

1170
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: that I respect, and I don't let it bog me

1171
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: down because if if occasionally I start to overthink it

1172
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: and someone will raise something about but this that it's

1173
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: going to destroy me. It will destroy me with just

1174
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: frustration and you know the unfairness of it all. But

1175
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: it's not that way. And I look at it and

1176
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: I think it helps when I see what some other

1177
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: people have gone through, especially the victims of homicide. What

1178
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: am I winging about? Like William Tyrrell's are the foster

1179
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: parents and biological parents look at the ship they're caught

1180
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: up in and I've got nothing to nothing to complain about.

1181
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: You know, they've lost their lost their child.

1182
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 2: So you know, but the ship you've gone through is

1183
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 2: still valid.

1184
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it is. And I'm not diminishing it. And

1185
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm impervious to feeling feeling the pain.

1186
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: But when it's all said and done, I'm happy with

1187
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: the career I had in the police. I'm proud of

1188
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: the career I had in the police, and I'm enjoying

1189
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: what I'm doing doing now. So I look at it,

1190
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: look at it that way.

1191
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 2: So what do you want to do now with the

1192
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: horizon You've got any things that we're working on, or

1193
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: you want to do.

1194
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: A couple of things that have been. I've loved the

1195
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: podcast world like I've really enjoyed that and just learning,

1196
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: learning the trade, learning working in the media. I've enjoyed

1197
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: writing the books. And a shout out to Dan Box

1198
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: who I wrote the books, the two books that number

1199
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: one best sellers. I should say.

1200
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 2: Just I write mine on my own without any help,

1201
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: so you.

1202
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: Know, Dan, Dan wasn't much help. But I'm lying down.

1203
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm lying. But I enjoyed that. And I have got

1204
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: a thought in my head for a third book. I

1205
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: catch Gills as a memoir that was my life badness,

1206
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: was understanding badness, and I don't know, I've got to

1207
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: be in the right mindset to go down that path

1208
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: and write that book, but I'm getting close to it.

1209
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: I've got a sort of structure for it, so I'm

1210
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: looking at that. A couple of other pictures to me

1211
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: about the TV series and different things that are in

1212
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: the works. And sometimes I do consultancy. I like hanging

1213
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: out with creative creative types.

1214
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: What's the kind of consultancy stuff. It's like as a

1215
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: police procedural and they asked for your.

1216
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: Fictional TV series and they send me the script and

1217
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: I go through the script and go oh, look, that's

1218
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: not really what we do, so give it a little

1219
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: bit of realism to it, which is enjoyable. And one

1220
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: thing I did one of the characters crazy fuck.

1221
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, that sort of stuff. Yeah.

1222
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: One of the things that really challenging but so rewarding

1223
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: was touring touring the country with Rob Carlton on the

1224
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: Eye Catch Killers Show, and I had I was like

1225
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: a sponge hanging out with Rob because he's been in

1226
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: that industry for so long, and he taught me so

1227
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: much about presence on the stage and timing and different

1228
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: things and doing one show after another and traveling around

1229
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: the country.

1230
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: I needed to show at the Factory Theater. Where else

1231
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 2: did you guys do shows?

1232
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: We did, and more theater too, and Entertainment Center down

1233
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: in Victoria and Brisbane, Yeah, all over the place. So

1234
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: it was it was good. We did a capital city

1235
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: tour and then a regional tour. But I enjoyed the

1236
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: experience of doing live shows. But there's a lot of

1237
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: effort that you've got to put into it, and a

1238
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: lot of energy. I didn't appreciate how much energy and

1239
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: the effort you've got to put into it.

1240
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's so much just before you get

1241
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: on stage, right, just the nervous energy.

1242
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: I've told this story, but our first show was at

1243
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: Edmore Theater, sold out on the Saturday night, and we

1244
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: had two weeks to prepare for the show, and I

1245
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be a Q and a

1246
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 1: robed me sitting there and asking me questions and I

1247
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: got this, and Rob's gone, there, this is the theater, stupid.

1248
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: We're taking the audience on the journey. So I had

1249
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: about thirty minutes of monologue to learn, timing, all sorts

1250
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: of things. I was shitting myself before the show, and

1251
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 1: even my manager Nick for them, He's gone because I'm

1252
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: going m More Theater Saturday night. Like m Moore Theater,

1253
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: I go see bands there. This is you know, was iconic.

1254
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: This is my patch. I don't want to embarrass myself

1255
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: this area. And Nick's air and he had a nervous

1256
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 1: look on his face. And we've done the show and

1257
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: it went over really well, and Nick's gone, Oh Jesus,

1258
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: I was a bit worried about it. I didn't know

1259
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: ever that it come off of. You promised me it

1260
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 1: would come off.

1261
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to tell you that beforehand that would.

1262
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: Probably would have sent me over the edge. Gary's not

1263
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,959
Speaker 1: coming out of the dressing room. But good stuff, And yeah,

1264
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: it gave me a confidence. And because I still do

1265
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: a lot of TV stuff and all that, and the

1266
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: pressure of a live audience, you guys, and I say

1267
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: it to you, guys, that would terrify me walking out

1268
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: on stage on your own. And I can walk out

1269
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: and tell stories and entertained, But to go out there

1270
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: and I'm going to make you laugh? How do you

1271
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: prepare before you?

1272
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 2: I think in the same way that you're talking about

1273
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 2: being addicted to the job, you know, I addicted to comedy.

1274
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, there are times when I absolutely

1275
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 2: shit myself. You know, I'll have a quick beer and

1276
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 2: I'll just go out and stage and I just trusted

1277
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: my material, yeah, trusting my jokes. And then you know,

1278
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: once people start laughing, you relax right into it. Yeah.

1279
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: But that that You've got to hit it right, haven't you.

1280
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: And sometimes I've been in the dressing room with big

1281
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: shows and I'm just seeing, what the fuck have I

1282
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: put myself in this position?

1283
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: Can we cancel it? Hown?

1284
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: I break my leg? If I break my leg?

1285
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all that that's a normal part of the process.

1286
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: And I think that the just between people like I

1287
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 2: don't know how you do that, we have those same feelings.

1288
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 2: You just force yourself to do it because because I

1289
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: know that's what I'm meant to be doing.

1290
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that I really respect that you're doing finding

1291
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: your passion when you say what I want to do

1292
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: in life, I want to do something that I'm passionate about.

1293
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,479
Speaker 1: And I did that in the policing and I'm doing

1294
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: it now and it makes life a lot easier, Like

1295
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: it really does. I don't recall winging that I've got

1296
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: to get up to bed, to get out of bed

1297
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: to go the work. I was excited about going to work.

1298
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes I probably didn't feel like getting out, but I

1299
01:04:58,960 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: was always excited.

1300
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 2: How did this podcast come about? How you've been out

1301
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 2: of the police force for how long? And then did

1302
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 2: you approach someone to they approach you about doing it?

1303
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: No, I got inundated with you. We've got the TV series,

1304
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: We're doing this or doing that? All these proposals put

1305
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: to me, and I'm sort of overwhelmed, and like I

1306
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: really I am just sitting there done, going what am

1307
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: I going to do? And like sixty minutes. It approach

1308
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: me to get the contract with sixty minutes and then

1309
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: news Corp and I'm speaking. I'm getting speaking to Rob

1310
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: going what the hell? This is a world that you

1311
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: understand better than I. And he said, You've got to

1312
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: get an agent. I've gone got to get an agent.

1313
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: That sounds like what a winker?

1314
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I've just cut awful when I've just.

1315
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: Come from the cops and I've got to get an agent.

1316
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: And he referred me to Nick for them. So I

1317
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,479
Speaker 1: sat down and spoke with Nick and He's gone, okay,

1318
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 1: well there's a book. We'll get your contract with sixty

1319
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: minutes with News Corp. The podcasts, and I'm just going, okay,

1320
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: this is you think what a rollercoaster? Yeah, And then

1321
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: Nick made the comment and it's pretty funny. On the

1322
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: day I was in I think it was the second

1323
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: time i'd gone into his office to talk about planning

1324
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: my future career. He's got taken a call and it

1325
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: was from Margaret Canoe and the barrister that said, the

1326
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: police have got your circulators wanted if you don't give

1327
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: yourself up. And Nick's gone, that's the first time I've

1328
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: had a client in here about to be arrested.

1329
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 2: How good?

1330
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was and he's gone, it's all good.

1331
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: It's publicity, don't worry about So the podcast with news

1332
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: Corp and also write some articles. That was terrifying for

1333
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: me because I'm writing an article and it's on the

1334
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: front page of the paper and Claire Harvey, who was

1335
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: my mentor News Corp when I first started, said could

1336
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: you write an article about this? And it was something

1337
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: relevant to William Tyrrell or the ship that was going down?

1338
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: So I did and I took about two days to

1339
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: write this article. I was so nervous. It's like sending

1340
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: off a UNI assignment that the whole world's going to read.

1341
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 2: Is it going to be any good? Is it going

1342
01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 2: to be going to say?

1343
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: It's ship to the true true story. I've sent it,

1344
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: email it to her and I get a text back

1345
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: and she's gone, got the article, and I've gone, oh,

1346
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: that sounds really positive. And I've caught the train into

1347
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: Holtstreet and walked up there and Clear's in her office

1348
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 1: and she's got coffee spilt on the desk. I'm sort

1349
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: of sidling in there just to try and get some feedback,

1350
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 1: and she's gone you can actually write I spelt my

1351
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: coffee I was reading it, and you can actually write

1352
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: I've got oh, Thank Christ.

1353
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 2: She could have added a couple extra words of the

1354
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 2: text message, but it was.

1355
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 1: But I learned a lot, and people like Claire and

1356
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: Dan and other people have helped me to write and

1357
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: understand that you've got to be descriptive because I was

1358
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 1: very factual in policing. Arrived at the premises. Now it

1359
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: was a cold, windy night when I arrived at the premises,

1360
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: that type of thing.

1361
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 2: So you've got.

1362
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: To be descriptive in the way that you described things.

1363
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: So that that's been good and it's made me. I'm

1364
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: proud of the articles that I've written, and some have

1365
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 1: been very meaningful to me about issues that I'm writing about.

1366
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: And then the podcast. They said to get your mate Jason,

1367
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: and we'll go to a pub and we'll record a podcast.

1368
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: And that's basically. We started recording at pubs, did the

1369
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 1: first season and could not stand drinking from eight o'clock

1370
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: in the morning because we'd have a couple of beers

1371
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: to create the atmosphere. Fly on the wall stuff. But

1372
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: I was interviewing old cops or cops I've worked with.

1373
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: And after we've finished the podcast two hours and I

1374
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: don't know, three beers, we'd get too loose if we

1375
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 1: went past that, Let's have some lunch. And so by

1376
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:38,480
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the afternoon, I'm plasted and I'm thinking.

1377
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 2: I can't do this. And that's how we go back

1378
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 2: to being a rookie cop going out for Chinese again. Yeah,

1379
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 2: and so that's.

1380
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: Where we've moved into the studio and just enjoyed it

1381
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: and enjoyed the journey of it.

1382
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I can't imagine that you thought when you

1383
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 2: started that it was going to go as long as.

1384
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: It has no Well that's I really I thought, well,

1385
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: this is lucky. I've just got some opportunities.

1386
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: But I've.

1387
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 1: I put the effort in because I'm a big believer

1388
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: in paying your dues. And I think I came into

1389
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 1: media world on a level that I didn't deserve, like

1390
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 1: as in because of what I'd done. I'm sort of

1391
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,640
Speaker 1: pitch there. If I write an article, it can be

1392
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper. Better journalists and

1393
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: I could take a long time to get an article

1394
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper.

1395
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's like a very common kind

1396
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 2: of imposter syndrome, right that you think that, but it's

1397
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 2: the reality is you you that's happening because you have

1398
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 2: a level of insight that a few people have.

1399
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: Well, yes, when I'm talking about the stuff that I know,

1400
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 1: but that that you mentioned imposter syndrome, and I have

1401
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: that every single day. Every time I walk into this studio,

1402
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: I've got imposter syndrome thinking what the hell am I

1403
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: doing this?

1404
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, as a great comedian, I won't name that. I

1405
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 2: was told him the same thing that I have in

1406
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 2: poster syndrome. It's like, mate, that the day that you

1407
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 2: don't feel it, there's a day you lose it. You

1408
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 2: lose it one. Well, I think we've gone through a

1409
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 2: fair few of the audience questions. I think the only

1410
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 2: one left really is this Christmas time? What's the shittest

1411
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:11,879
Speaker 2: Christmas present that you've ever received?

1412
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:14,719
Speaker 1: No Christmas present that's pretty lonely.

1413
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 2: But that's bad. That is bad.

1414
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, the grandmother that keeps buying your underpants even when

1415
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: you're in your thirties or whatever, that type of thing,

1416
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: but that they're sweet, sweet presents.

1417
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 2: No, i'mndies is pretty bad. I used to get houndies

1418
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 2: and a pack of you know cards. I think for

1419
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 2: my birthday, I was like, what is this?

1420
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, well, okay, wine that right back. My

1421
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: father wouldn't let me have a push bike till I

1422
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,440
Speaker 1: was about thirteen. And by the time I've got the pushbike,

1423
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: everyone's outgrowing the pushbike. So I come out like the

1424
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: kids you're meant to get the push bikes at six

1425
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: or seven, where you've got your new shiny bike. I'm

1426
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: thirteen and my mates going, what your push bike? Aren't

1427
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: you too old for that type situation?

1428
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 2: So that yeah, why wouldn't he let you have a pushboke?

1429
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 1: Oh?

1430
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 2: I don't know. I probably did something stupid. Yeah he

1431
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 2: had his own rules.

1432
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had his own rules. But no Christmas I'm not.

1433
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: I get called scrooge scrooge a lot on Christmas, but

1434
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:19,639
Speaker 1: I try to embrace the Christmas spirit and.

1435
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, wait, you're a scrooge.

1436
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 1: No I give presents, But have I got a Christmas

1437
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: tree up in my place yet?

1438
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 2: No?

1439
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 1: I haven't. Come on mate, Well, my kids begged me

1440
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: when I'd separated from my first wife, and the kids

1441
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: are six or seven, that that age where Christmas is

1442
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 1: important to them. I am a ship dad, I'm a

1443
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:43,600
Speaker 1: ship husband. The relationships falling apart, I'm going to.

1444
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 2: Do the right thing.

1445
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to buy them the biggest Christmas tree you

1446
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: can get in the crappy little place I was renting

1447
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 1: at the time, so I bought one of those real

1448
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: pine tree ones. Didn't have any tools there because they

1449
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: were at my ex wife's house. Had a knife and

1450
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: it wouldn't fit in the wouldn't fit in the that

1451
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 1: a ready place. So I've got this bread knife, you know,

1452
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: with a sarrayed age, trying to cut through, cut this

1453
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 1: tree down. I was there for about two or three hours.

1454
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: We're living near the beach. The kids just walked off,

1455
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: disappointed and went down to the beach, and I'm there

1456
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 1: with this Christmas tree trying to cut it down. Never

1457
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 1: have bought the live Christmas tree since then, traumatized by it.

1458
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 2: You gave it one go. I gave it my best shot.

1459
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 1: It was you try cutting down the Christmas tree or

1460
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 1: trimming up a Christmas tree with a butter knife.

1461
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 2: Luckily, I've had yeah, mum or girlfriends that have done

1462
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 2: the heavy lifting for me.

1463
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it is what it is. But I'm looking

1464
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,680
Speaker 1: forward to Christmas. I get to this point at the

1465
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: end of the year with the podcast, I really feel

1466
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 1: like I'm about to fall over the line. Yeah, I

1467
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 1: aim for the year, and it's nice to get across

1468
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 1: the line. Delivered what we wanted to deliver. Proud of

1469
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 1: the people we've had on the podcast, had a lot

1470
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: of fun, learnt a lot, and.

1471
01:12:58,360 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can put your feet up for a little

1472
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 2: and I know that you're not going to get a

1473
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 2: call about having to go to a crime scene.

1474
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: And and let's face I haven't been charged this year,

1475
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: which is always always a good thing.

1476
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 2: Neither have I. Gary, There you go, my ico. I

1477
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 2: was on a two and a half year intensive corrections

1478
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 2: order and that finishes December twenty three, and so that

1479
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 2: as part of that, it had in writing that I

1480
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to commit any more offenses for two and

1481
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: a half years. So my understanding, I haven't checked it,

1482
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: but my understanding is I'm allowed to go back to

1483
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 2: drug dealing from December twenty four. I can give you

1484
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 2: free legal advice. That's exactly what it means.

1485
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 1: So you just run with that, and when you get

1486
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: locked up, just say Gary Jubilan said, it's all right,

1487
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 1: straight yeah, yeah, that'll.

1488
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 2: Carry carry a lot of weight.

1489
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: But look, I gotta thank you for coming in and

1490
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: doing this.

1491
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 2: I think it's a yeah.

1492
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 1: As one of the guests we had on when Emily

1493
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: suggested this, your name came up and I'm gone, yeah,

1494
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:56,879
Speaker 1: let's do it.

1495
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 2: My pleasure. Mate. It's been a lot of fun and

1496
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure hopefully you're aians enjoyed hearing a bit more

1497
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 2: about your your backstory and some of your your your

1498
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 2: insights into all this stuff. It's normally I catch killers,

1499
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:11,120
Speaker 2: but today we caught Gary. Goodbye the finish. Thanks here, mate,