1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: If you were a crooked would you say driver Ferrari 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: and where gold chains at nine o'clock in the morning. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: Some of the only ones do, but I wouldn't. He 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: was a Mexican cartel member yep, walking down Colin Street 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: and he was dragging a suitcase behind him that we 6 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: knew contained hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, and 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: I was just like, why is there a cartel member 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 2: walking down Colin Street in the middle of that? What 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: have I walked into? 10 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: If we were writing a story about this, there's the start. 11 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rules, Life and Crimes. Our guest today, Dave Bartlett. 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Dave had eleven years with Victoria Police, including as a 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: detective's and killed a road with a counter terrorism unit, 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: before moving to the Australian Crime Commission, which later became 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission. He was an investigator for 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: six years across several operational and intelligence roles. He trained 17 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: with the FBI in Washington on covert cyber operations. And 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: it is a twenty seventeen Churchill Fellow and that means 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: Dave or David. 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: Which you prefer. 21 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: David's good David was awarded the Churchill Fellowship, which means 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: he got to go overseas and study where did you 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: go and how long we were there? 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: I flew to New York initially, spent time with the MIPD, 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 2: spent time with the da FBI. FBI were very gracious, 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: so they let me go down to the one of their 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: COVID training facilities just south of Washington. So time in Washington, 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: d C. New York, and then went up to Canada. 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: Spent two weeks with the Mounted Police our CMP in 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: the mountains, and then went across to the UK and 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: spent about a month in London and then spent a 32 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: little bit of time with the Dutch Police well in Europol. 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: So all up, I was away for three months, and 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: the point of it was to build relationships with our 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: closest law enforcement intelligence partners, but also to understand how 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: they manage some of the more covert collection capabilities that 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: we had in Australia and how we could share information 38 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: because the world is getting smaller, and how can we 39 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: work with our overseas partners more club. 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: Reverently, now, Dave came in to our studio here at 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: the Herald Sun Empire probably two or three years ago 42 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: at least, and we had a long and interesting discussion, 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: but we had to spike it at the time because 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: of some problems with security, and that was a very 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: good thing, probably. 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: Probably good for Dave's safety. 47 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: But he's been able to see he's way clear to 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: talk to us again about certain aspects of his career. Now, David, 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: I can't remember all the things you've done, but there 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: are many tell us who you are, and a brief 51 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: resume of what you've been up to in your time 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: on the side of law and order against the forces 53 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: of evil. 54 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back for the no problem. 55 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 2: First of all, your bribery will get you. Everybody did that, 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: by the line went a long way. I think, yeah, 57 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: thank you, Yeah, I have. I've done a lot in 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: my fifteen year career with the police. I jumped at 59 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: every opportunity I could take. Straight out of the academy, 60 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: I was looking for special task forces, temporary duties. Any 61 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: opportunity I could take, I jumped at. So I actually 62 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: only spent about three and a half hours in three 63 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: and a half years, almost down three and a half 64 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: years in uniform. Fifteen years. Where did you do that? 65 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: Just briefly, initially at Transit, so I was on the trains, 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: so it predates PSOs. So I spent about twelve months 67 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: on the trains, and then I spent two and a 68 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: half years at Parand, which was extremely opening Acrosschapel Street 69 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: in that area. 70 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: I guess some of the train stuff might be a 71 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: little bit late at night too, would it be, Yeah, 72 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: a bit exciting. 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, trains were good and it gave me a good 74 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: opportunity to start talking to community. It was a really 75 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: good community policing start, which I think is a bit 76 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: of a missed now for general duty's cops because of PSOs. 77 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: It was a great training around, a great place to 78 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: start learning. 79 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: Start learning how to talk to people, how to approach them, 80 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: how to defuse a situation. Absolutely those skills which are critical, 81 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: critical at all levels of the police force. And once 82 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: you got away from that, you went into went to 83 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: Pryan Uniform ran and you said, that's an eye opener. 84 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: That was an I always, oh my goodness, the amount 85 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: of jobs I went to a the love machine and 86 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: that is still in the news. So I have a 87 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: bit of a chuckle every time I see that they 88 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: shoot people there. They shoot people, they stab people. I'm 89 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: surprised they've still got a lique A license. But yeah, 90 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 2: that has been NonStop. That was two thousand and six. 91 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 2: I was there when they were having problems. I mean, 92 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: that's almost twenty years they've been in the media and 93 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 2: they're still kicking. But Brown was great. 94 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: Do the people that run the You don't have to comment, 95 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: but would people who run large venues like that have 96 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: a lot of money to spend on skilled lawyers to 97 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: allow them to retain your liquor license by going to 98 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: VCAT or to various courts. I'd say so, he think so, 99 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: because it's amazing, isn't the inference is there? 100 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: Definitely? They make a lot of money there that joints 101 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: pumping on the weekends, so there's obviously an incentive there 102 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: for them to keep a lot of water, drink a 103 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: lot of water. I don't know, and I don't even 104 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: know if they've got a lig A license, to be honest, 105 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: it's amazing. It was a fun story. Actually, I've had 106 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: a really keen interest in human intelligence my whole career, 107 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: So that's informers that snitches human sources, as they call it, 108 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: and we touched on that during our last chat. But 109 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: what I remember from the Love Machine as were on 110 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: that that was actually picked up my first human source 111 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: and my first informer. And what sort of person would 112 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: this is interesting? He was a young man, he was 113 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: probably only nineteen, but he was trying to pass counterfeit 114 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: notes across the counter So I got him for something 115 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: like that, which I thought was quite strange. But then 116 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 2: he became quite cooperative, did he with police, and we 117 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: ended up using him for a number of years. Actually, 118 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: he was quite quite good in the drug scene in 119 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: Chapel Street. I'd only been out of the academy for 120 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: over a year and thrown into the world of you know, 121 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: covert human sources and informers, which I thought was a 122 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: great opportunity. 123 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: Why did you end up doing that? What did somebody 124 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: else above you in a hierarchy see in you that 125 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: made you know they said let's send Dave or David 126 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: to do that instead of something else. 127 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: That's a fascinating question. I actually remember a more of 128 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: senior Connie, but a more senior senior Connie encouraging me 129 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: to take that course of action. He I believe it 130 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: was he. I remember who it was. I seem to 131 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: recall him encouraging me to do when he could have 132 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: done it himself. He was a good operator, but he 133 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: for whatever reason saw it as a good learning opportunity 134 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: for me, and I thank him for that. 135 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: And do you feel that you have a particular personal 136 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: trays that make you good at and you know, just 137 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: a persona even the way you look, perhaps that makes 138 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: you a good fit for that because you don't look 139 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: like a. 140 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: Six foot four flat foot and copper yeah, rugby forward. 141 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: I've reflected a lot on that over my career, and 142 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: I've always been a fairly emotionally intelligent, self aware a 143 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: person that thrives on human connection. And if you look 144 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: through my career in and out of the police force, 145 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: I've always excelled in areas where I am face to 146 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: face with people and I am talking to people and 147 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: the amount of time someone says to me, I don't 148 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: know why I'm telling you this. I've heard that phrase 149 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: hundreds of times throughout my life. And what is that 150 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: a sense of that you're a good listener. I'm calm, 151 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: I'm a good listener. 152 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: You in gender confidence in that way you're not threatening, well, 153 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: you're not trying, you're not trying to stand over. 154 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: No, I was never that kind of cop, and I 155 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: think I definitely saw police like that in the job, 156 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: and we all know they exist, and that's not you know, 157 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: I didn't join it when they studied it at the 158 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: academ No, they don't, funnily enough, But yeah, I was 159 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: never one of those heavy handed cops. I was always 160 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 2: one to go into a room and move the interview 161 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: table to the side and sit like we are here 162 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: onto easy chairs and talk to crooks like that. So 163 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: you have very good at a good cop. Yeah, very 164 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: much so the good cop. 165 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: Now you said inside and outside the forced What else 166 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: did you do in did you? 167 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: Were you out in the world before you joint? Just briefly, 168 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: I did an IT degree at Swinburn and then run 169 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: a business in Hawthorne for two years. But prior to that, 170 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: I grew up in quite a Christian family. I'm no 171 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: longer religious, but I was always interested in that kind 172 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: of okay, softer side of the world. 173 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: And that it's always interesting that at least you know 174 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: what it is, that you are very familiar with the 175 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: things that you don't necessarily believe in, but they do have. 176 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: Their influence on Yeah, they do in your world. View 177 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 2: and your behavior. And that's one of the things that 178 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: I do like about in religion. Not that we'll talk 179 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: about religion today, but the basic elements of it are 180 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: just be a good person, of course, and treat people 181 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: with respect and listen. And the description of me being 182 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: a calm person is only something that I really realized 183 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: in the last few years, that people would describe me 184 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: as being calm. And I think maybe that rubbed off 185 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: on crooks and victims and witnesses when they were in 186 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: times of high anxiety, that they maybe I elicited that 187 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: level of calm for them. 188 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Crooks, most of them, most of the time, it seems 189 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: to me to be highly agitated ill a these some. 190 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: Of them, especially when they're handcuffs. 191 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, with some of these gangsters 192 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: that were when they were shot dead and they did 193 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: post mortems. Two things crop up with post mortems and 194 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: financial post mortems. One is often they're not as wealthy 195 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: as people thought. And the second thing is that in 196 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: their systems, these super cool, tough crooks, they've got drugs 197 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: to make them calm, to bring them down, Like, yeah, 198 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: they're taking value or something to stay calm because they 199 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: were worried about the life they're leading, and they had 200 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: fears and all the rest of. 201 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: It which they masked, but underneath and professionals do the 202 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: same thing. Yeah, yeah, I mean people that are in 203 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: high flying jobs off and use cocaine and then come 204 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 2: down with a xanax or avellium to write themselves be 205 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: where they go to work. So crooks probably have the 206 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: same kind of roller coaster of dopamine hits and that stuff. Yeah, 207 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 2: it's interesting you saw that, yeah, first team, Yeah, I did, 208 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: And I guess maybe my mind nature brought them down 209 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: and they often started telling me things. And maybe that's 210 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: why that senior Connie saw that in meter to get 211 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: a human source, was because that person started talking to me. 212 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: And I mean, I'll talk a bit more about my 213 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: career in a moment, but yeah, I've had plenty of 214 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: human sources like that over my time period. So I 215 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: went from PRAN to what was called the Divisional Response 216 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: Unit in the city in two thousand and eight, and 217 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: that was in a small unit run by our next 218 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: robbery detective sergeant. That was a great little team. It 219 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 2: was just the sergeant and four of us and we 220 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: were in plain clothes and We would often work the 221 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: corner of King Street and Flinder's Lane on the weekends, 222 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: going to nightclubs. We had sources that were operating, so 223 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: again human sources or informers operating in different nightclubs. I 224 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: remember this one particular night. The Special Operations Group used 225 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: to used to have to do voluntary duties back in uniform. 226 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: So these are the guys that usually in their black 227 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: pajamas and do a little work that was seeing up 228 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: in Poor Punker at the moment, but they would come 229 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: out on a Saturday night and do shifts in uniform 230 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: like any other police officer. And I don't remember exactly why, 231 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: but it was fascinating. So my sergeant knew one of 232 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: the guys from the SOG on a Saturday night and 233 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: there was about six members of the SOG working, and 234 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: sergeant said, look, I've got good information from a human 235 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 2: source that there's someone up in a particular nightclub on 236 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: the first level, sitting on this couch on the far left, 237 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: dealing drugs. So the sergeant spoke to the SOG team 238 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 2: leader and asked for help to maybe go into the 239 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: nightclub and arrest this individual. So we all lined up 240 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: behind these guys from the SAG who looked like normal 241 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: police Saturday night, Chavel Street, Flinders Lane and King Street 242 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: and we went order of March. I was probably like 243 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: seventh behind the sog went up there, They went up 244 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: the stairs, went round to the left and before I 245 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: could even get around the corner, there's this poor young 246 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: kid in hog tide on the floor, the sogs downing 247 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: around in like that is the most efficient arrest I've 248 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: ever seen in my life. I didn't see it because 249 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: it happened so quickly, and then you know, they marched 250 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: him out with his head down like we've seen in 251 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: the news, and that was a funny night, very good news. 252 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you learned from that sort of stuff. Yeah, 253 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: one way to handle things yep, commonplace. How did you 254 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: sort of disguise yourself from week to week so they 255 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: didn't all get to know straight away that you were. 256 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: A Yeah, I wasn't full time undercover, so I was 257 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: playing clothes work. So we often still walked around with 258 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: the lanyard around our necks. And when you're when you're 259 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: managing human sources, you do it in a way that 260 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: you meet them in places that are very secure, yes, 261 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: and you take certain operational security protocols before and after 262 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: that meeting to make sure that people don't you're not 263 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: seeingly followed and that kind of thing. So, and there's 264 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 2: training that goes along with all that, all that sort 265 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 2: of stuff. Yeah, okay, so you'd say, don't talk me here, 266 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: go x y Z. Yeah, and there's certain things like 267 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: it's a really simple thing, but you don't agree on 268 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: a pre arranged location because I mean, if you're dealing 269 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: with crooks, because ninety nine percent of the time they 270 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: were still offending while they were helping with police. So 271 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: you know, the worst thing you can do is say, look, 272 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: let's meet at this cafe at one o'clock, because that 273 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: gives them time to set up an ambush or set 274 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: up someone listening, someone taking photographs of you. So it's 275 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 2: a very simple method of keeping yourself secure. And I 276 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: won't go into them anymore. But that's a really obvious one. 277 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: Even as a common sense approach, you shouldn't do that. Yeah, 278 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: So you ring them and say, look, meet at this corner, 279 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: meet at the corner of Elizabeth And on Wednesday morning. Yeah, 280 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: and then we'll just be in the city. I'll give 281 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: you a call and then tell them where to go, 282 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: don't give them any opportunity, and that gives us the 283 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: advantage of knowing where we're going to meet them, so 284 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: we can put anything in place that we need to 285 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: at that location. But it gives us the level of 286 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: control to speak. Yeah, in that time working that, what 287 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: did you call that? Divisional response? Yeah, regional responsing, range 288 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: of activities. What was your best pinch do you think? 289 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 2: In that era? That was my introduction to surveillance and 290 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: telephone intercepts. So in the police force back then, at 291 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: least I'm talking about two thousand and eight to twenty ten, 292 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: it was still relatively hard to get to listen to 293 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: people's phones. People were still talking on their phones, but 294 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: getting the paperwork through legal and everything else was still 295 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: quite hard. But that was an introduction. I was running 296 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: several investigations where we were listening to phones and that 297 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: was the first time i'd been exposed to that, not 298 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: only been in the job at that point through three years, 299 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: just on three years, and suddenly I got the headphones on. 300 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: Listening to people's phones like that just opened my world 301 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: to some of the amazing technical surveillance capabilities that law 302 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: enforcement have and the evidence, intelligence collection aspects, which I loved. 303 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: It strikes me and I really have no great insight, 304 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: so I'm guessing that the blanket use of phones in 305 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: the world really and the fact that everybody realizes on 306 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: them so much. The children scored the other day and 307 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: every alleged child in there, some of them are shaving, 308 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: i have to say, and clearly drove Harley Davidson's the court, 309 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: But all of them, right down to ten year olds, 310 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: they're all in there playing with their phones and texting 311 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, which means every day 312 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: there's millions of messages and words, some of which must 313 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: be incriminating or evidenturing And it's very hard for people 314 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: to break that habit, isn't it. Yeah, I mean, because 315 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: this is how they communicate. They don't think about it. 316 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: No, it's absolutely second nature. I mean, I've got an 317 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: eighteen year old son who he plays video games on 318 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: his PC, but he has a mobile phone on his 319 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: desk that has a grip call of all his mates 320 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: on a video call, so he's using and he's also 321 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 2: talking to them during the game as well on the keyboard. 322 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: So he's using multiple devices, multiple communication methods, and we 323 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: have to assume that crooks are doing the same thing. 324 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: It's hard for them not to and it's easy for 325 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: you and yours to tap into it. 326 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was easier back in two thousand and eight 327 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: because there were less encrypted apps, there were less advanced 328 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: apps on phones. I did a presentation when I was 329 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: working for the FEDS on kind of the roadmap towards 330 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: where telephone intercepts were going to become less effective because 331 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: people were just ringing each other less. The fact that 332 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: you can call someone now on WhatsApp and it's fully encrypted, 333 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: why would you call them using a normal phone number? 334 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: Of course, because I noticed it myself with people saying listen, 335 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, use X or Y. 336 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not saying anything. It's not in the 337 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: public domain. It's the fact that you've got encrypted apps, 338 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: So why I wouldn't use them? Yeah, And I even 339 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: read this article the other day. There was a cybersecurity 340 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: expert trying to test the age verification laws for her kids, 341 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: and she tried to put all these kind of restrictions 342 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: on her kids and it was like a like a 343 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: red teaming, like a hacking experiment with her kids. And 344 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: she found out that her daughter got around all of 345 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: these controls that she put in place by using Pintra. 346 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: And you can chat in Pinterest and tare information in Pinterest. 347 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: So there's so many apps that now have ways to communicate. 348 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: It just goes on and on. Nothing. Kids don't know. 349 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: Now they get around things very quickly, and crooks to 350 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: be the same. 351 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: And they're straight onto it and yeah, tell each other immediately. 352 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, shelter sheed rule applies, doesn't it. Yeah knows everyone 353 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: knows everything and gossip and information can fly around the world. 354 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: Now you refer to your time in the feeds, Tell 355 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: me what way did you progress up, sideways or down 356 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: or whatever it is to go from Victoria Police working 357 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: in the nightclub circuit in King Street and around. 358 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: There to other jobs. In so twenty ten I became 359 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 2: a detective and my first official posting was to the 360 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: Victoria Police State Intelligence Division under Stuart Bateson and Neil 361 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: and I spent two years there as a new detective, 362 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: working on several portfolios, including writing extremism, which has popped 363 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: up again now. I worked on critical infrastructure, so I 364 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: did a lot of work in Gippsland looking at the 365 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: safety and security of some of our most critical infrastructure 366 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: in Victoria. And I also worked an organized crime for 367 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: two years, so that again was my introduction to what 368 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: I what I found I loved was organized crime and 369 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: money laundering during those two years at Sint Kilda Road 370 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: in twenty ten. Stuart Bateson was a great mentor. He 371 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 2: was the Detective inspector at the time, and yeah, that 372 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: opened my eyes to organize crime and how rife it 373 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: was in Victoria and Australia at the time. And two 374 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: years later, so twenty twelve, the Australian Crime Commission were 375 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: at that time rotating Victoria Police detectives through as investigators, 376 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: and the Australian Crime Commission at that time in twenty 377 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: twelve were a very small organization. They only had about 378 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty staff. Nationally, they were the old 379 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: ncaa national crime agency that had been around a long time, 380 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 2: very small, very agile agency with amazing surveillance powers. They 381 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: had their own act which allowed them to get surveillance 382 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 2: and other collection activities very very quickly. I'm talking hours, 383 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 2: not days. So what would normally take police maybe a 384 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: week to get organized unless it was a life threatening matter, 385 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: would take the acc at that time hours. So this 386 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: opportunity came up to get seconded there as an investigator, 387 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: so I applied for that position and got it. Yeah, condered, 388 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: still vic Pole, still under the umbrella of vic Pol. 389 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, still on the umbrella of vic Pole. So 390 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 2: I basically, this will lose your super, didn't lose my super, 391 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: all that kind of thing. So I ended up being 392 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: seconded there for two years, initially as an investigator. Then 393 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: I took leave of that pay for a year for 394 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: a third year, and then ended up going on full 395 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: time and resigning from Victoria Police in twenty sixteen. 396 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: Officially, officially you'd had some six years in the Big Pole. 397 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, officially only seven years five to twenty twelve. Yeah, 398 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: and then I was on seconded And what were the 399 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: highlights on my lights of that life? I loved that job. 400 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: I remember my first few weeks as an investigator at 401 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: the Australian Crime Commission in twenty twelve. Our officer was 402 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: on Flinder's Lane and we went out to do surveillance 403 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: on a person of interest that the Drug Enforcement Agency 404 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: had suggested we keep an eye on in the States, 405 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: the DEA, So we went out to Colin Street and 406 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: we did surveillance on a particular individual and I was 407 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: just following people along. I was new and once we 408 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 2: looked at the profile of this person, he was a 409 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: Mexican cartel member, ye, walking down Colin Street and he 410 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: was dragging a suitcase behind him that we knew contained 411 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I was 412 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 2: just like, why is there a cartel member walking down 413 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: Colin Street in the middle of that? What have I 414 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: walked into? If we were writing a story about this, 415 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: there's the start, Yeah, exactly, And I was like, that 416 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: just opened my eyes even more. 417 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 3: What does a Mexican cartel member look like? At least 418 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: this one Mexican and normal. We've got so many South 419 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 3: American tourists here and Central American tourists blends right in. 420 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 3: And that's what makes some of these groups so effective 421 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: is their ability to blend in. 422 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: Didn't have as a part of the station as Sombrerawn Horse. 423 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: I wish he did. It would have made surveillance a 424 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 2: bit easier, but no, And I guess that was just 425 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: like I literally said to someone next to me, do 426 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: you seriously have cartel members in Melbourne and they're like, yes, 427 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: of course we do, like looking at me stupidly, and 428 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I've got a bit to learn here. Okay, 429 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: what do we think he was up to? Laundering money 430 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: on behalf of his cartels. So what these bigger organized 431 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: crime groups do is they send a forward person to 432 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: do things on their behalf. So from a drug importing perspective, 433 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: I used to call them shore parties. So the actually 434 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: organize a group of people to go to the destination 435 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: of where drugs are landing and facilitate the receiving of 436 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: those drugs. And it's the same with money. If there's 437 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: money changing hands, they will send a trusted person to 438 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: make sure that that transaction of that handover goes off 439 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 2: according to plan right. 440 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: Definitely think as smart, experienced, and probably moderately deadly. 441 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah I did. I can't remember the job now, 442 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: but we did occasionally have people in our surveillance profiles 443 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 2: that were hitmen back in Columbia and Mexico, and that 444 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: was always interesting. Yeah. There was another one in Sydney 445 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 2: who was waiting for money to come in and it's 446 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: another funny story. He was a short party for money, 447 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 2: so he was sitting in Sydney waiting for money to 448 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 2: come to him to facilitate a deal, and he was 449 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: given an allowance by his cartel back in Columbia, I 450 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: think this one was. And he ran out of money. Yeah, 451 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: he had a little apartment, little airbnb he was renting, 452 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: but that at least had a roof over his head. 453 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 2: But he had no money, so he went to the 454 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 2: supermarket and he bought himself an onion because that's all 455 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: he could afford, and he just bits straight into it, 456 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: straight into a fresh onnion, straight off the shelf. That 457 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 2: is remarkable that on the surveillan's footage, just like why 458 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 2: is he eating an onion? He was broke, He was broke. 459 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: They left. He really would have nowhere to turn. No, 460 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: he couldn't go to Central Lincoln, and he probably didn't 461 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: want to just pull a little robbery or I just 462 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,239 Speaker 2: want to bring any attention to himself. So you know, 463 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 2: sometimes these guys are left predominantly that our guys are 464 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: left to just get the job done because they're a 465 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: long way from home. Occasionally we would hear stories about 466 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: some of these men again being blackmailed or extorted to 467 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: come to Australia to do this, and if they didn't 468 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 2: do what they were meant to do in Australia, either 469 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: their family would be killed or or you know, someone 470 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: harmed back in their Hurrican country. So there's a lot 471 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 2: of Nazi stuff that goes on. 472 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: South American crime is off the scalars stuff. Well, yeah, 473 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: it's they just wipe out families. 474 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that don't my ground. I have a suspicion of 475 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: Russians might be not much different. Yeah, they're all serious, 476 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: serious dudes. Yeah, we didn't see a lot of but no, 477 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: I mean when you think about organized crime, they're all 478 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: luck Italian organized crime. They're just very, very entrenched in 479 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: everyday life here in Australia. They're just not as not 480 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: as out there as other groups. Probably not as going 481 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: to wipe out entire No, they're not. Maybe back in 482 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: the earlier days they were, but they're very entrenched with 483 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: the legitimate businesses. Now it's all just mixed times, no names, 484 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: no backtrield. 485 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: But I have occasionally been to large stores and I 486 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: think I'm in a place that oh, well it could 487 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: be an acre under one roof, and they must sell 488 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: a lot of features of it's amazing and you know, 489 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: could it be that this was set up using money 490 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: for other endeavors. That's right, this is These are the 491 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: thoughts that run through my head. 492 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: It's mine too. I agree, and organized crime needs to 493 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 2: try and legitimize their money as much as they can. 494 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter where they come from. It's it's how 495 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: do they get to a point where they can spend it, 496 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: tip it over. It's fine to make the money, but 497 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: you can't really get away from the ACL at the moment. 498 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: If you're suddenly driving around with the Ferrari. No, we've 499 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: got I have some kind of way to make it legitimized. 500 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: And that's where moneylinering comes in. 501 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: If you were a crook or advising a crook, would 502 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: you say, driver a Ferrari and wear gold chains at 503 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: nine o'clock in the morning, or what would you do? 504 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: Some of the silly ones do, but I wouldn't. What 505 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 2: would I do? What would you wear? Depends so much 506 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 2: you want to blend in. But a lot of this 507 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 2: stuff comes back to people's egos, so it's very hard. 508 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 2: Like you were saying earlier about the psychology behind crooks, 509 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: and some of them can't help themselves. It's the ego 510 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 2: in them. It's in them. Yeah, and when they land 511 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: those big deals and those big checks, it's very hard 512 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: to discreetly send that money off shore and be patient 513 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: and you know, put it into super for example. Yeah. 514 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: And I guess there must be cool, calm, sensible crooks, 515 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: but we don't see them. 516 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, they stay under the right. I reflect on that 517 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: as well as my time even in Victoria Police or 518 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: how I used to pull over the the overtly looking 519 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 2: crooks like the other ones I probably shouldn't even have 520 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: to worry about, like they'll get caught because they're probably 521 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: a lot sillier. Where's the bloke in the cardigan in 522 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: the Evolver? Correct? So one of the us I got 523 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: in my early days was always look for rental cars. 524 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: So whenever I checked a car, if it was a 525 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: rental car, I'd pull it over because often crooks, and 526 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: I saw some of the biggest, earliest dudes again mostly 527 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: hire little marinas, little little runabout cars to do their 528 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: dirty work so they can just blend in. So whenever 529 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 2: I saw a rental car, they usually got a check. 530 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: That is interesting. So the caunterintuitive thing and do they 531 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: rent them in whose name? How do they organize that. 532 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit harder now to fake IDs, but 533 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: sometimes they might use a like a dodgy looking fake 534 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 2: overseas passport where you know a budget. You're not really 535 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: going to be too fussed about a passport. Do they 536 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: really know if it's legitimate Spanish passport? They don't really 537 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: an Irish national. Yeah, they're not really going to check that, 538 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 2: whereas if you try to fake a Victoria and you 539 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 2: otherwise license it might be a bit more obvious because 540 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 2: they're seeing them all the time. Right, Generally you do 541 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: need pretty good ID. So the money laundering stuff was fascinating, 542 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: and then we touched on that during our last chat 543 00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: a few years ago. 544 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: But of course my mind is like mashed potatoes. So 545 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: you'd like to tell me again, happy to how's your mind? 546 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting going back into that, Like we're just 547 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: saying crooks have to do something with the money. And 548 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: what I found interesting during my time at the Crime Commission, 549 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: I'd spent seven years there, by the way, so I 550 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: started there in twenty twelve and worked right through to 551 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: early twenty nineteen. Of course several roles, but most of 552 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 2: that time was within investigations where we would call it 553 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: following the money, So we would find someone don't really 554 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 2: matter who. We would find someone with what we considered 555 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: undeclared wealth or wealth that they couldn't really explain, and 556 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: then work backwards, so it's like, why does this person 557 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: suddenly have a lot of money, Like they're not on 558 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: our radars and on our database, Like how has this happened? 559 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: And then we'd work backwards to figure out are they 560 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: holding money on someone else's behalf? Are they doing other things? 561 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: So it's a bit different to where you'd normally catch 562 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 2: a crook with drugs and then figure out what houses 563 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: they owned. Kind of did the reverse. Yes, we'd find 564 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: the people that owned lots of houses but hadn't launched 565 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: a tax return for ten years for example. 566 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: Well it's intriguing, isn't it. And I suspect that most 567 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: of us out in the world go, hmm, that chap 568 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: has just bobbed up. 569 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: Never really heard of. 570 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: Him before two years ago when he bought a horse 571 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: to run in the Melbourne Cup, or when he bought 572 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, whatever it might be. 573 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: I just made that up. 574 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: But you know, you see these people turn up and 575 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: suddenly they're buying well, racehorses for huge figures and many 576 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: several of them not people with a lot of age 577 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: on them, and they seem to appear out of nowhere. 578 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: They rose without trace, some of them, it seems, it seems, 579 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: and you think that's intriguing, and you just wonder what 580 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: the real source of some of the wealth is and 581 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: whether they represent money that might be flowing from overseas 582 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: and whether it goes from a to be to seed 583 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: to the Dubai or somewhere and then over to somewhere 584 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: and then to Australia that is there overseas money that 585 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: gets shuffled around. 586 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, we saw so much of that and that's what 587 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: our CEOs. I had three CEOs and I was there. 588 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: But the Australian Crime Commission had very close links to 589 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: definitely the Five Eyes intelligence partners so across America, Canada, 590 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 2: the UK and New Zealand, and we were very tapped 591 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: into what was going on on the international stage in 592 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: terms of crime and money laundering. And we would get 593 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: intelligence reports from our partners and we would obviously assess 594 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: them and see how it might impact Australia. And one 595 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: of the remits of that agency is to make Australia 596 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: hostile to organize crime. So what can we do from 597 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 2: a policy perspective, from a legislative perspective, a banking perspective, 598 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: where are the holes in our society that we can 599 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: plug and make it harder. 600 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: You worked on formulating, let's say, strategy up to word it. 601 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: I don't like much because everybody used strategy and policies 602 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: to plug. 603 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 2: Those We're on the very operational sides. We're on the 604 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: fun side. But there's a whole team of people, some 605 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: of which I still know, are in that area. Their 606 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: job is to take all the operational outcomes that we 607 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: materialized and then transferred them into actionable strategic options for 608 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: the government to consider. So do we change the way 609 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: banks operate? Do we change the way ATMs work? The 610 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: Banking Royal Commission touched on some of this as well, 611 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: because what they realized was it was a little bit 612 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: too easy for people to put dirty money through banks. 613 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 2: And another example of that was what happened to Crown Casino. 614 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: So I can't again go into a whole lot of detail, 615 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: but what we were seeing and what was on the 616 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: news was that there was a lot of dirty money 617 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: coming into Crown casino and just being laundered through. Yeah, 618 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: caught me the surprised. So what can we do there 619 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: was a society to make it more difficult for casinos 620 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: or other similar industries to allow that to happen. What 621 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: kind of pressure can the government put on them to 622 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: change into their ways? 623 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: And in your view as an inside outsiderside insider, do 624 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: you think that the governments have been able to anieties 625 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: have been able to do things that have worked. 626 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, what's good. Well, we've seen what's happened with Crown. 627 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: I was really pleased to see what happened there. I'm 628 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: sure they weren't, but I was pretty hot for a 629 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: while with Crown. Yeah, I mean a lot to come 630 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 2: out about what was going on there. The thing is, though, 631 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: with money laundering is there's often a legitimate use of 632 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 2: the money, but potentially in illegitimate origin of the money. Yes, 633 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: And the way to explain that is we had a 634 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: job where we were watching some drug dealers in the 635 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: western suburbs of Melbourne. We watched them do a money 636 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: handover of about two hundred thousand dollars. So we saw 637 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: a bag get handed over which we knew through other 638 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: means it was going to be about two hundred thousand dollars. 639 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: We actually saw that person deliver that cash to an airport, 640 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it was one of the smaller airports 641 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: in Melbourne and hand it to someone who got off 642 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: a private jet who had come in from China. So 643 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: the person who come in from China, they had found 644 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: a way because it's very hard to get money out 645 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: of China. Yes, they were a high roller at the casinos, 646 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: so how do they get cash in their hands in 647 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: Melbourne that they can bet with? So they had made 648 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: arrangements through some of the people we were looking out 649 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: at the time to just get two hundred thousand dollars. 650 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: It was actually their money because they were quite wealthy 651 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: back in China, but they couldn't get the money out 652 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: of China with you. 653 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: So this is that Does it originate in India? But 654 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter Hawala. Hawala people operate by a system 655 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: of trust, yes, and sort of not in the wink 656 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: across borders. So if a person in some Southeast Asian 657 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: country or Middle Eastern country, yep, what's the transfer money 658 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: to Australia yep. This is for the benefit of our 659 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: listeners yep. They arrange for someone in Australia to produce 660 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: the money on the basis that their interests can be 661 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: repaid elsewhere. 662 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: Perfect them. As long as we all trust each. 663 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: Other and never Welsh, it works correct And I tend 664 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: not to Welsh because the repercussions would be. 665 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: Fairly significantly significant. And that's exactly what had happened in 666 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: this case. So what we saw was a illegitimate source 667 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 2: basically transferring value to a legitimate source. So when we 668 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: arrested this person from the jet, he's like, this is 669 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: my money. But that's what we saw with Crown was 670 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: a lot of legitimate money being put in, but it 671 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: was being fueled by the illegitimate money going through drug 672 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: imports and drug trafficking photomenally in Melbourne. So it's almost 673 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: it's kind of funny when you talk about cultural appropriation. 674 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: What has happened is that organized crime has culturally appropriated 675 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: what was really perfect system of value transfer that originated 676 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 2: in the Silk Road. Yeah, hundreds of years ago, so. 677 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to say fifteen years ago at least, and 678 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: it might be more. A young would be film producer. 679 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: Again to me, it was cameraman. He was a Bright Spark, 680 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: who wasn't a great writer, but he had a lot 681 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: of ideas and he had this idea for an action 682 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: movie that the basis of it was really well, Hawala. 683 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: The basis of his crime movie was Hawala, and it 684 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: was going to be a dual Indian Australian production, etc. 685 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: And it's got an interesting plot. Yeah, I don't know 686 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: what happened to it, but it sort of this is 687 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: early two thousands. Open my eyes to the potential of it. 688 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: How long it have been going and went all the 689 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: way back to Marco Bolo or somebody. 690 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, probably a long time, but he'd 691 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: probably have a lot more content now because there's been 692 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: a lot more come out in the media, and there's 693 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 2: been Four Corners episodes on it, there's been documentaries. It's 694 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: a lot more now in the public domain than it 695 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: ever ever has been. And it's still a very reliable 696 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 2: way to transfer value over long distances because the challenge 697 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: it was responding to was how do I literally transfer 698 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: tons of gold or the value of tons of gold 699 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 2: from one place that's a thousand kilometers away to another place. 700 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: So they discovered a way to transfer that ton of 701 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 2: gold just locally just within its own region, and then 702 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 2: using a trusted third party get the value transferred elsewhere. 703 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: As long as you've got trusted third parties with access 704 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: to enough cash to do it, make it work. 705 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. The only way it really works is if you've 706 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: got hundreds, if not thousands, of people who want to 707 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 2: use that service. Because the way they we used to 708 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 2: call them controllers. A controller basically an accountant would keep 709 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: a ledger, yea literally a ledger like an giant Excel spreadsheet. 710 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 2: Let's say, okay, person A has one hundred dollars that 711 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: needs to go to Vietnam for example, they just have 712 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: to wait for someone from Vietnam to need one hundred 713 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: dollars to go back the other way. See, you basically 714 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 2: go into a waiting list going yeah, I need to 715 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 2: spend Yeah, I need to send ten thousand dollars to Columbia. Legitimately, 716 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: oh I found someone in Columbia. They want to send 717 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars to mel. 718 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So actually this is a betfair racing essentially that Yeah, 719 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: and they could ticket they pick up. 720 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: There, they take a bit of commission wherever it might be. Yeah, 721 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: And the beauty of it is there's no no paper trail, 722 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 2: so other than the cash at the end of the day, 723 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: they getting back to our original conversation, what do we 724 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: do with the cash when we get it? Where does 725 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: it hit the bank? And when does it hit the bank? 726 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: So what we would often see is someone has one 727 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars deposited. Where did that come from? And 728 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: when you look at it, it's actually been handed to them. 729 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: And the McDonald's car park, you know, a day earlier 730 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: from someone they've never met before. 731 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: You might have told us that that you were watching 732 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: while McDonald's car park. 733 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it heaps them. And again that's in the 734 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: four Corner carpools in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, entered carpools in 735 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: And again if you look, if you search for Hawala 736 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 2: and four Corners, there's a really good episode on this 737 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: and they go into a lot more detail than I 738 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 2: probably would. So the AFP and the ACIC took a 739 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: lot about how they went about this particular operation in 740 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: the four Corners episode, and they talk about meeting in 741 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: public places and nothing against McDonald's just happens to be 742 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: a car park. They did it in shopping centers, they 743 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: did it in sports grounds, anywhere that was public and 744 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 2: hand over the money. 745 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: Sports grounds are interesting out they it seems that some 746 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: particularly cautious crooks like walking around ovalsaw meeting out in 747 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: the talk. Yeah, very difficult to monitor them. Even during 748 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: the gang name war. Was that there was a couple 749 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: of mister meeting swimming pools with very very brief brief 750 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: on so that it was clear there was no taping going. 751 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 2: On, absolutely no weapons about to mention that exact thing, Yeah, 752 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: I don't have any specific examples, but I know that 753 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: they used to meet in saunas, steam rooms, swimming pools, 754 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: anywhere that was Yeah, you couldn't tell if they were 755 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 2: wearing a while, And it was also very hard to 756 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: be observed while they're talking because it's quite a private setting. 757 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 2: So getting a surbalance I pretty into those settings can 758 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 2: be quite difficult as well. Okay, So, and it's always 759 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 2: safer to be away from your home when you're doing 760 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. True when the. 761 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: Police are listening, and perhaps some careful chaps might ride 762 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: pushbikes around because they haven't got any identity and you're 763 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: fairly anonymous on a pushbike with a helmet on, Yeah, 764 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: you're just another just another person. 765 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 2: Another goes on a push I mean, you make a 766 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: good point. I don't think I pull over many people 767 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: on pikes. Maybe I should have done that one a 768 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 2: junior cop. 769 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: I only say this because one of my colleagues here 770 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 1: was somewhere, and he was there and made a very 771 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: heavy duty bloke who's killed several people, and he's very scary, 772 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 1: and he's waiting there and waiting there, and next thing 773 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: touches up on a pushbike, gets off and takes the 774 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: helmet off and goes, oh my god. 775 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: He could have just killed me. He said it very 776 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: very spooky. 777 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: When the man involved, who's notorious for killing people, that's 778 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: how he appeared perfect along along the Yarra or somewhere yep, 779 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: and he's one of eight hundred people on pushbikes right 780 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: along there. 781 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: It's pretty hard to to tailor pushy to to for 782 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 2: a surveillance crew to keep on a pushbike. It's very 783 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 2: difficult to start around around wrong way down a one 784 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 2: way street. Yeah it's it's Yeah, it's pretty smart. You 785 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 2: need you need some good pushbikes. Yeah. 786 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: David Butler has been our guest today and I think 787 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: he may well return next week Thanks for coming in, David, 788 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 1: No worries. 789 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 2: Where are you off to next? I'm about to go 790 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 2: straight to the airport flight a beautiful camera and sell 791 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 2: your ideas there. Yes, I've got two meetings tomorrow with 792 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 2: the ACIC and the AFP to talk about my Safer 793 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 2: Places network platform. David, this idea of yours. 794 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: It's a really interesting initiative and we're going to hear 795 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: a lot about it next week. Thanks for listening. Life 796 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true 797 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 798 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: features and more, go to heralds Sun dot com dot au, 799 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: forward slash andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 800 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 801 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold. And if 802 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 803 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: the description.