WEBVTT - Another day, another expenses scandal 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:10.240 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Over 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.160 the past week, Labor Minister Annika Wells has become the 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:17.599 face of a new debate over politicians perks. Revelations about 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.160 an almost one hundred thousand dollars trip to New York 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.440 to talk up Australia's team social media ban at the UN, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:28.080 followed by reports of taxpayer funded family travel to Grand Finals, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.880 ski fields and overseas sporting events, have seen her refer 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.599 three and a half years of expenses to the Parliamentary Watchdog. 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.640 The Prime Minister insists her claims within the rules, but 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.920 the backlash and further questions over the spending of other 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.559 MPs from all parties has opened up a bigger argument 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.520 about whether the rules are fair and whether they match 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.000 public expectations in a cost of living crisis. Today Press 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.480 Gallery journalist Karen Middleton on parliamentary entitlements and whether this 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:13.080 scandal will force change. It's Thursday, December eleventh. So Karen, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:18.440 the story of Anaka Well's spending I think begins when 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.839 it became clear what the cost of her recent trip 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.960 to New York to speak at the UN General Assembly 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.680 came to light. So tell me. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:29.240 What we know, well, that was. 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:34.800 Back in September and the government was brooking its impending 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.959 social media ban. And what we now know is that 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.920 she took a senior staff member and a public servant 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.600 with her and the total cost of their flights was 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.640 something like ninety four thousand dollars for example, where they 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:52.040 first class flights And given the government's kind of sensitivity 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.000 to a cost of living issues, do you think it 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:55.160 passes the pub test? 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.800 No, they weren't first class flights. We will disclose further 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.360 through the usual EPIA processes. They that haven't rolled out yet. 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.400 The reason we've been told there were business pass flights. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.919 We know they were at the last minute. Obviously they 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.840 had to rustle up these flights quickly, but we haven't 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.800 seen the detail. And no matter which way you slice 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.040 the diced, it's very hard to get to a ninety 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.560 four thousand dollar bill for three your return flights through 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.160 New York, even just for three days. So that is 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.960 how this all came to be subject to scrutiny. And 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.720 now we've seen a whole litany of issues come to light. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.600 So what else has been uncovered? Well, her travel and 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:39.800 her use of the family Reunion entitlements which exist under 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.359 the Parliamentary Expensive Scheme. 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.919 Communications Minister Anika Wells is under increased scrutiny over her 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.720 use of taxpayer dollars for travel. Is now questions raised 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.080 over a trip to Threadbow, Boxing Day, test matches and 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:53.440 the Formula one Grand Prix. 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:58.079 Politicians are allowed to bring their families to work events. 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.840 The obviously have to be judicious about this, and Minister 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.000 Wells is also the Sports Minister, so she goes to 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.560 a lot of sporting events and it seems she's taken 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.880 her family to some of those events. Her husband's gone 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.680 to the AFL Grand Final with her. Her husband and 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.320 children met up with her when she went to an 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.360 event at threat Bow during the winter and they had 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.560 a ski weekend there together. And we've also seen when 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.120 she went to the Olympic Games in Paris. There's been 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.359 some questions about the expenditure that occurred their one very 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.360 expensive dinner of a night theay Riot in particular, that 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.480 seems to add up to something like more than a 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.000 thousand euros. So a lot of questions being asked about 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.960 what is being portrayed by some critics as a pattern 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.720 of behavior of liberal. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:44.440 Use of expenses. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.240 Now, she argues she's done nothing wrong, It's all within 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:48.080 the guidelines. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.440 As a poluntarian, I have followed the rules and made 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.120 myself available for these questions, as I'll continue to do. 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.000 But just for the absolute avoidance of doubt, like Mark says, 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.840 this has all been through IPR been found to follow 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:02.560 the guidelines so far, but for the absolute of what 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:03.520 it's a doubt, I'm happy. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.279 And then Matt has raised questions about the guidelines themselves. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.320 Yeah, let's talk a little more about how wells has 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.600 responded as the pressure has mounted over there. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:12.560 What has she said? 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:13.080 Well? 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.880 I think part of the issue is that the government's response, 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.520 initially from the Minister herself and then the Prime Minister 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.440 to that first allegation, was well, it was an important thing, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:23.640 so of course she should go. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.560 This is about one of the most important public policy 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.280 challenges of our time. The event that Emma spoke at, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.480 the event that let Them Be Kids in thirty six months, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.080 hosted alongside the Prime Minister and I was attended by 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.680 multiple world leaders, the President of the EU. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.640 And as they've opened themselves up to these questions, by 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.240 the nature of their response. 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.120 I'll tell you what a trip to New York for 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.040 two days is work? 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.000 That's not fun. 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.400 I flew to Washington, well, one hundred grand I flew 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.320 to Washington recently. It would have cost more than one hundred. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.560 Okay, So alban Easy is at the point defending Annika 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.960 Wells saying this is all within the accepted rules. 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.320 What's the opposition made of it? They have made, hey, 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.400 is what they have made. This is a gift from. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.120 The political gods at a time when all the focus, remember, 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.560 has been on the opposition and what a shambalic state 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.960 it's in. So they have grabbed this and run with 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:21.080 it as hard as possible. 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.080 This is part of a pattern of behavior that we're 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.039 seeing from this minister, and she's throwing around taxpayer money 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:31.279 like it's confetti. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:32.480 Lois and Macintosh. 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.000 She's been out there criticizing Anaka Wells, so it's not 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:36.920 surprising there's been a bit of a peak under the 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.120 under the lid to make sure that her expenses are 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.080 in order, having taken her son with her on a 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.040 work trip which also coincided with the judo competition that 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:47.680 he was in. 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.120 So in June twenty twenty three, you traveled to the 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.000 Gold Coast and at that time your son Biron was 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.279 in the Australian National Judo Championships. So can you confirm 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.320 your client seven hundred and sixty dollars in travel lounce 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.080 and one thousand and eight dollars in return flights did 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.920 that include your son's flight, my son's flight to Queensland. 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.400 We've seen some questions about a couple of the Greens 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.400 use of family entitlement and other members of Parliament as well. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.320 I think Minister Don Farrell, the Trade Minister in the government, 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.640 he's got quite a large expenditure using the family reunion entitlement. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.880 So we're now seeing this expand and this is what happens. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.560 It becomes a war where if you attack us, we'll 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.000 attack you. But finally, after a week and a half 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.839 of all of this, we saw the Minister announce that 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.600 she's asked the Independent Authority to ordit her expenses. 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.480 The embattled Sports Minister Annika Wells has asked the Independent 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.920 watchdog to order her travel expenses. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.240 After days of mounting pressure, the minister has been under fly. 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.719 She believes they're all in line, but she's done that 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.680 to try and just stop this story. On the eve 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.080 of the social media band because it was just getting 0:06:58.120 --> 0:06:58.720 out of control. 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.559 Okay, so everyone is claiming that their behavior is within 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.240 the guidelines. However, it does seem like that is not 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.960 satisfying journalists members of the public. So what does that 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.240 tell you, I suppose about the disparity between what might 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.920 actually be allowed and I suppose what people expect. 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.200 Well, this is the big problem in a cost of 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.320 living crisis in particular, but any time really the public 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.080 expect a judicious use of what is in the end 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.880 being money. They don't begrudge parliamentarians having their families with them, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.200 I think now, And then I think people accept that 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.280 parliamentarians mostly work hard. 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:40.560 And the argument is. 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.680 Also being put that if you want to encourage people 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.000 with young children into politics, and you need to make 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.920 provision to ensure that they get to see their families 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.480 a reasonable amount when they have to be away from 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:52.080 home a lot. 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:53.880 But I do think there. 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.640 Is this sense that judgment needs to be applied as 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.240 well as just the letter of the law. 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.360 And I think that's where the question is coming in. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.160 It's about the optics of this and where the judgment 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.920 is being applied. And this is the best, most judicious 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.360 use of taxpayers money coming up. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.240 Politicians have lost their jobs over spending scandals, So will 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:29.960 Wells withstand public scrutiny, Karen, Taxpayer and travel expenses are 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.439 a trap that politicians seem to fall into more often 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.720 than you might think. So what is unraveling now? How 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.800 does that fit in to I guess the history of 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.480 expense scandals across the board, both sides of politics, Ruby, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:48.400 we have seen. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.440 This movie many times before. 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.719 The longer you hang around politics and what politicians, the 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.720 more often you see this movie. Both sides in terms 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:01.959 of the major parties and their affiliates have been involved 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.080 in these kinds of scandals in the past. You know, 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.240 we think most recently of things like Bromwin Bishop's use 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.559 of a helicopter to get to an evented Victoria. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.920 You know that helicopter. Yes, I was short of time, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.480 but it is no excuse and it was an error 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.760 of judgment. And really, as I said, I want to 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.480 apologize to the Australian people because I feel like let 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:22.880 them down. 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.000 We saw Susan Lee go to an auction while she 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.680 was on a work trip to the Gold Coast when 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.280 she was a minister under Malcolm Turnbull's government and by 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.040 herself an apartment. 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.280 An impol's purchase is how the Health Minister is explaining 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.720 her decision to buy a luxury apartment on a taxpayer 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.880 funded trip. Susan Lee bought the unit on the Gold 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.160 Coast during a twenty fifteen work visit. 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.479 The purchase of this particular property was neither planned nor anticipated. 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.560 She ended up losing her ministerial portfolio as a result 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.960 of that. We've seen under Howard govern gig Or six 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.480 ministers to travel warts allegations. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.800 So history is littered with examples of this. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.000 Like Sheet Robert, when he was a minister in the 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.640 Coalition government went on a work trip to China. I 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.440 was accepting gifts, portray himself in a manner that wasn't 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.960 necessarily strictly with his portfolio. We had a business partner there. 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.000 You know, lots of examples of these things. People have 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:27.880 got into trouble. They can snowball, they can become a 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.480 huge deal, not only for the person involved, but also 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.280 for a government or the party that they are associated with. 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:40.240 And people hate the misuse or the alleged misuse of entitlements, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.280 and especially when they're feeling under financial pressure. So the 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.439 other thing here, and this is probably something that Anika 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.560 Wells needs to think about, is it she's the sports 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.600 Minister and that's a fun portfolio. So she's going to 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.560 things for work that other people go to for fun. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.200 And I think there's an argument that when you have 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.800 a job like that, yes it's a job, it takes 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.400 you away from home a lot, you need to be 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:10.000 extra alert to how it might look because you're probably 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.880 already going to these things for free. You're getting paid 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.920 to go there things that other people have to pay 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.719 for and doing their leisure time. So you probably need 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.720 to think twice if you want, on top of that 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.559 to claim extra expenses and bring along the family. You 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.600 just need to be aware of how that looks. And 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.560 that might be more true in that portfolio, and in 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:39.640 say the arts portfolio, than in one that is involving 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.760 obligations that perhaps are are less fun. 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.960 Yeah, and you know many of those politicians that you mentioned, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:50.120 they have lost positions at least temporarily because or as 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.640 a result of a scandal around this. So ultimately, do 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.560 you get the sense that well spending is going to 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.319 withstand public scrutiny. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.680 I think we don't really know then did that yet? 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.600 I think, as we've discussed, she's made this decision to 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.280 ask the authority to do an audit, she fully expects 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.320 that that audit will find she's done nothing wrong under 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.560 the guidelines, which we've already talked about. The announcement of 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.680 that audit was really just designed as a political circuit breaker. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.040 It was supposed to try and stop this snowball effect. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.440 But it depends what they find. And we still haven't 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.120 got an answer to the original question, which is how 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.600 on Earth did three flights to New York coss ninety 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.440 four thousand dollars. People do want to know the answer 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:34.920 to that, And then there are a whole lot of 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.560 other things that come after that have emerged that need 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.720 an explanation. And I think, you know, the eternal lesson 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.880 for the protagonists in all of these incidents is that 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.199 you're much better off to be upfront explain yourself, and 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.680 that makes it a lot less likely that this kind 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.640 of ongoing digging will occur. Now, it's the obvious question 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.800 when the first line of defense is well, it's with 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:04.280 the guidelines. If the public doesn't feel satisfied with the answer, 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.120 the obvious combat is well, the guidelines must need looking at. 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.600 It doesn't seem like the Prime Minister is inclined to 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.360 review the guidelines that would make him quite unpopular with 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.240 all of his colleagues everyone across the Parliament. So he 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.760 will be trying to contain this and make sure that 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.720 this review is the end of it. But on the 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.400 face of it, the public doesn't seem satisfied that the 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.760 system is working in the best way it can to 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.319 make the best use of taxplayer's resources. 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.160 Well, Karen, thank you so much for via tat. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:51.199 Thanks Ruby. 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.040 Also in the news today, advocates say Indigenous children continue 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.760 to be removed from families at rates they have called obscene. 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.960 The Family Matters Report released this week by the Secretariat 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.640 of National Aboriginal and Islander Childcare has found Aboriginal and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.760 torrest rate Islander children are almost ten times more likely 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.959 to be removed from their parents than non Indigenous children. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.280 The report found they also make up forty five percent 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:17.959 of those in. 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:18.760 Out of home care. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.680 The group's chief executive, Catherine Little, says not enough money 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.720 is being spent on early intervention and community led support 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.960 services to address issues like poverty, housing, insecurity, and racism, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.800 and Almost half of Australians are concerned about how to 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.600 afford Christmas this year, according to a survey from the 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.080 Salvation Army examining how the cost of living crisis is 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.680 impacting families and the lead up to the holiday season. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.440 A survey found that more than one point seven million 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.440 Australians will reach out to charity this year, with half 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.200 doing so for the first time. It also found that 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.840 over a million Australians don't plan on talking to their 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.960 children about Christmas this year over concerns. 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:57.440 They can't afford it. 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.000 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AAS. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:01.080 Thanks for listening.