1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoche production. 2 00:00:13,961 --> 00:00:15,001 Speaker 2: My mum was. 3 00:00:18,041 --> 00:00:24,921 Speaker 3: Funny, she was smart, she was a clectic, she was 4 00:00:25,241 --> 00:00:28,321 Speaker 3: out there, she was maternal, she was loving, she was 5 00:00:29,761 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: or bonkers, but yeah she was. 6 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,081 Speaker 2: She was awesome. She was the best mum. 7 00:00:37,681 --> 00:00:39,641 Speaker 3: I know everyone says that about their mums, but she 8 00:00:39,801 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 3: was the best mum. She went the extra mile for 9 00:00:41,721 --> 00:00:43,401 Speaker 3: us and just went nuts. 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 4: That's Lily PARMANSA Lily is now in the mid thirties, 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,641 Speaker 4: but back in two thousand and five, she was just nineteen, 12 00:00:52,881 --> 00:00:56,481 Speaker 4: a nineteen year old doing what most do, loving life, 13 00:00:56,961 --> 00:01:01,601 Speaker 4: a boyfriend, starting a career as a hairdresser, and a 14 00:01:01,641 --> 00:01:07,761 Speaker 4: close knit family with three brothers and a sister. But 15 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,881 Speaker 4: on December twenty nine, two thousand and five, that all changed. 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 5: Carrie to the Mountain, my friend, you see again. She'll 17 00:01:29,681 --> 00:01:34,841 Speaker 5: love me, the wall, She'll love me. 18 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,041 Speaker 1: In December two thousand and five, Katie O'Shea was visiting 19 00:01:43,121 --> 00:01:47,041 Speaker 1: family and friends in the Athton tablelands of far North 20 00:01:47,121 --> 00:01:49,881 Speaker 1: Queensland when she simply vanished. 21 00:01:52,961 --> 00:01:56,441 Speaker 3: Mum had two sisters and a brother. She was the 22 00:01:56,521 --> 00:02:01,601 Speaker 3: second eldest. She grew up in Morrilbuck for I think 23 00:02:01,681 --> 00:02:04,561 Speaker 3: her primary and the start of her high school years, 24 00:02:04,561 --> 00:02:07,881 Speaker 3: and then her family moved to Balwyn and she went 25 00:02:07,961 --> 00:02:12,281 Speaker 3: to Genzano until she felt pregnant with my brother. To 26 00:02:12,321 --> 00:02:18,481 Speaker 3: be honest, mum sort of didn't really. She didn't really 27 00:02:18,481 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: talk about life before kids, I think because she started 28 00:02:22,041 --> 00:02:25,441 Speaker 3: having kids so young. But I know that when she 29 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,961 Speaker 3: moved to Balwin, I know that she had a bit 30 00:02:28,001 --> 00:02:30,161 Speaker 3: of trouble fitting in with the girls there, and I 31 00:02:30,401 --> 00:02:32,681 Speaker 3: know that she felt like a little bit of an outcast. 32 00:02:34,201 --> 00:02:39,321 Speaker 4: Kathleen mary O'shay, or Katie as her friends would end 33 00:02:39,401 --> 00:02:43,161 Speaker 4: up calling her, was born in Melbourne in nineteen sixty 34 00:02:43,201 --> 00:02:48,481 Speaker 4: one to a conservative Catholic family. Katie was a little different. 35 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,641 Speaker 3: Yeah, well she had my brother at sixteen, so you 36 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,481 Speaker 3: know she sort of her teenage years were being a 37 00:02:58,561 --> 00:03:01,041 Speaker 3: mum and then eventually running away with the hippies. My 38 00:03:01,161 --> 00:03:04,401 Speaker 3: mum was very down to earth. There's not a lot 39 00:03:04,441 --> 00:03:08,041 Speaker 3: of pretense to her. And the school she went to it's, 40 00:03:08,161 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 3: you know, the top private girls Catholic school. 41 00:03:10,881 --> 00:03:12,041 Speaker 2: In Victoria, so. 42 00:03:13,761 --> 00:03:16,641 Speaker 3: I think she sort of struggled to, I guess, find 43 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: her place there. She I know that she told me 44 00:03:21,041 --> 00:03:23,601 Speaker 3: once that she got a perm because she wanted to 45 00:03:23,601 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 3: fit in with the girls there, and she still said 46 00:03:25,281 --> 00:03:26,241 Speaker 3: the bitches didn't like me. 47 00:03:26,361 --> 00:03:28,081 Speaker 4: Can you talk to me about why? Do you think 48 00:03:28,121 --> 00:03:29,921 Speaker 4: she felt like a bit of an outcast back then? 49 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,521 Speaker 3: I think it was just very clique and Mum's not 50 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,881 Speaker 3: really like that, so I think she just, yeah, I 51 00:03:35,921 --> 00:03:37,761 Speaker 3: think she just felt really out of place and just 52 00:03:37,761 --> 00:03:39,521 Speaker 3: couldn't connect with the girls on her year level. She 53 00:03:39,601 --> 00:03:42,401 Speaker 3: had some sort of she hung out with her older 54 00:03:42,441 --> 00:03:46,601 Speaker 3: sister and her friends, but eventually her sister moved school, 55 00:03:46,761 --> 00:03:49,481 Speaker 3: so you know, she sort of just I think after 56 00:03:49,561 --> 00:03:51,281 Speaker 3: that she felt pregnant. 57 00:03:51,441 --> 00:03:54,241 Speaker 4: And you said she's a bit of a hippie. What 58 00:03:54,281 --> 00:03:55,361 Speaker 4: does that sort of mean. 59 00:03:57,881 --> 00:04:00,441 Speaker 2: She didn't wear any makeup. She would but she did wear. 60 00:04:00,321 --> 00:04:04,121 Speaker 3: Purple eyeliner and beetroot on her cheeks because for blush 61 00:04:04,721 --> 00:04:13,121 Speaker 3: and coloring. She had the strangest sense of fashion sometimes, 62 00:04:13,161 --> 00:04:18,121 Speaker 3: you know, just very lots of jewelry. I guess you 63 00:04:18,161 --> 00:04:22,241 Speaker 3: could call that boho now, but you know, as a kid, you. 64 00:04:22,241 --> 00:04:23,801 Speaker 2: Like, what the hell are you wearing? 65 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 5: Woman? 66 00:04:26,201 --> 00:04:32,081 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was just she was just very free spirited. 67 00:04:32,081 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 4: Much to the shock of her mum and dad. After 68 00:04:35,281 --> 00:04:39,241 Speaker 4: leaving school in early nineteen seventy nine, Katie had a 69 00:04:39,281 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 4: baby at sixteen years old. 70 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,681 Speaker 3: The baby is my older brother, Allan. She had him 71 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,481 Speaker 3: when she was sixteen. I do remember when she after 72 00:04:53,521 --> 00:04:57,241 Speaker 3: she gave birth. I think the nurses sort of went, okay, 73 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,241 Speaker 3: now say goodbye moment, what are you doing with my child? 74 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,041 Speaker 3: And they went, well, you know, because it was nineteen 75 00:05:02,081 --> 00:05:04,161 Speaker 3: seventy nine when she had him, so traditionally a lot 76 00:05:04,201 --> 00:05:06,241 Speaker 3: of the teen mums they gave their babies up for adoption, 77 00:05:06,281 --> 00:05:07,481 Speaker 3: and Mum refused. 78 00:05:07,041 --> 00:05:07,361 Speaker 2: To do that. 79 00:05:08,281 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: Now my kid, piss off, leave me alone, that's my child, 80 00:05:11,281 --> 00:05:16,561 Speaker 3: give him back and yeah, and then she I think 81 00:05:16,761 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 3: after she had Alan, she sort of slowly made her 82 00:05:20,001 --> 00:05:23,761 Speaker 3: way up to North Queensland. I'm not one hundred percent 83 00:05:23,761 --> 00:05:26,681 Speaker 3: sure what took her up there, but I know that 84 00:05:26,761 --> 00:05:29,801 Speaker 3: she slowly made her way up there, settling in Nimben 85 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,561 Speaker 3: for a little bit and stuff like that. 86 00:05:33,361 --> 00:05:36,361 Speaker 4: And so Alan's dad was he on the scene at 87 00:05:36,361 --> 00:05:36,761 Speaker 4: that time. 88 00:05:38,081 --> 00:05:40,681 Speaker 3: I think they split up when he was quite young. 89 00:05:40,681 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: I think he was still a baby when they split. 90 00:05:45,281 --> 00:05:49,441 Speaker 3: I've like, I don't know how close they were when 91 00:05:49,481 --> 00:05:53,481 Speaker 3: Alan was a kid. I've had a couple of interactions 92 00:05:53,481 --> 00:05:56,081 Speaker 3: with him sort of during my years and obviously left 93 00:05:56,081 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: to mum rang after mum disappeared. 94 00:05:58,361 --> 00:06:00,161 Speaker 2: I actually rang him. I'm like, have you seen mom? 95 00:06:01,201 --> 00:06:05,401 Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't think that he stayed in Allen's 96 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,361 Speaker 3: life full time. 97 00:06:07,401 --> 00:06:11,401 Speaker 4: We'll say, and so after your mom split with Alan's dad, 98 00:06:11,921 --> 00:06:14,521 Speaker 4: you said she slowly made her way up to Queensland. 99 00:06:15,241 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 4: How did she make her way up to Queensland. 100 00:06:17,041 --> 00:06:20,241 Speaker 2: She probably would have buses. 101 00:06:21,601 --> 00:06:26,561 Speaker 3: Trains. She wouldn't have hitchhiked, not with Alan. 102 00:06:26,641 --> 00:06:31,481 Speaker 4: Anyway, we're talking late seventies. Your mum was a hippie. 103 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,561 Speaker 4: She's got a new baby at sort of sixteen seventeen, 104 00:06:35,841 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 4: and she travels through places like Nimbon. She was a 105 00:06:39,961 --> 00:06:41,281 Speaker 4: pretty free loving spirit then. 106 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:47,281 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, not your sixties, you know, peace, love and rock. 107 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,161 Speaker 3: I actually know she was a little bit like that actually, 108 00:06:49,201 --> 00:06:51,481 Speaker 3: but she was more of a Jimmy Hendrix kind of hippie, 109 00:06:51,521 --> 00:07:00,001 Speaker 3: not a Rolling Stones kind of hippie. I was born 110 00:07:01,001 --> 00:07:06,401 Speaker 3: in a little house in Millamella in far North Queensland. 111 00:07:09,041 --> 00:07:12,601 Speaker 3: It's about three or three hours up the Giant Hill 112 00:07:12,641 --> 00:07:16,481 Speaker 3: from Cans up on the table lands. I was a 113 00:07:16,521 --> 00:07:19,681 Speaker 3: home birth because my mum wanted her best friend and 114 00:07:19,801 --> 00:07:24,481 Speaker 3: my auntie to deliver me. I apparently took three days 115 00:07:24,481 --> 00:07:31,161 Speaker 3: to come out. Apparently I was a stubborn baby. I 116 00:07:31,201 --> 00:07:32,921 Speaker 3: do know that Dad told me. I think after the 117 00:07:32,961 --> 00:07:34,921 Speaker 3: third day, she went, I can't do this anymore. Just 118 00:07:34,961 --> 00:07:36,881 Speaker 3: get me to a hospital, get this thing out of me. 119 00:07:37,001 --> 00:07:38,481 Speaker 3: And as soon as Dad got her in the car, 120 00:07:38,801 --> 00:07:40,401 Speaker 3: her water burst and he had to drive her back 121 00:07:40,521 --> 00:07:48,521 Speaker 3: went basically back down the driveway. And yeah, So we 122 00:07:48,561 --> 00:07:51,001 Speaker 3: lived up there, I think for a couple of years, 123 00:07:51,081 --> 00:07:53,961 Speaker 3: and then I think I was about eighteen months old, 124 00:07:54,001 --> 00:08:00,761 Speaker 3: and then we came down to Melbourne. Mum, Alan, Dad 125 00:08:00,761 --> 00:08:04,241 Speaker 3: and I. I don't think my grandmother had even known 126 00:08:04,281 --> 00:08:06,561 Speaker 3: that my mum was pregnant with me during that time. 127 00:08:07,641 --> 00:08:09,801 Speaker 3: And so when Mum sort of rocked up on the doorsteps, 128 00:08:09,801 --> 00:08:11,601 Speaker 3: she's like, Hi, do you remember Alan. 129 00:08:11,401 --> 00:08:14,201 Speaker 2: Oh, I've got a child. This is my partner. 130 00:08:14,481 --> 00:08:19,681 Speaker 4: Welcome And so your dad sort of took Allan under 131 00:08:19,681 --> 00:08:20,561 Speaker 4: his wing as his own. 132 00:08:21,001 --> 00:08:23,041 Speaker 3: I didn't even know that Allan was my half brother 133 00:08:23,121 --> 00:08:26,241 Speaker 3: until I was about ten. I still remember my best 134 00:08:26,241 --> 00:08:28,121 Speaker 3: friend going to me, you know he's not your real brother, right, 135 00:08:28,161 --> 00:08:31,961 Speaker 3: And I went what And I said to Mum is Alan, 136 00:08:32,121 --> 00:08:35,001 Speaker 3: does Alan have a different dad? And she goes, yeah, 137 00:08:35,001 --> 00:08:37,401 Speaker 3: he does, but we don't differentiate in our family, that's 138 00:08:37,401 --> 00:08:39,681 Speaker 3: not how we do things, and we never spoke about 139 00:08:39,681 --> 00:08:42,321 Speaker 3: it again. He was just She's like, you know, it 140 00:08:42,321 --> 00:08:44,681 Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's different. Daddy's still your dad's son. 141 00:08:44,761 --> 00:08:45,761 Speaker 3: He loves him all the same. 142 00:08:49,921 --> 00:08:54,241 Speaker 4: Lily had three brothers, Alan, her mum's first born when 143 00:08:54,241 --> 00:08:58,681 Speaker 4: she was sixteen, and then to John Parman's Lily's dad. 144 00:08:59,201 --> 00:09:03,601 Speaker 4: She had Lily born in nineteen eighty six, Danny born 145 00:09:03,641 --> 00:09:07,921 Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine, Tim born in nineteen ninety one, 146 00:09:08,321 --> 00:09:11,761 Speaker 4: and then Bridgid, the youngest girl, in nineteen ninety four. 147 00:09:14,161 --> 00:09:17,921 Speaker 4: Lily remembers the good time she spent with her oldest brother, Allan. 148 00:09:18,321 --> 00:09:22,201 Speaker 3: Allan was a really good big brother. He was really 149 00:09:22,281 --> 00:09:28,681 Speaker 3: like he wasn't He didn't sort of avoid me, you know, 150 00:09:28,721 --> 00:09:30,081 Speaker 3: if we had to get the same school bus or 151 00:09:30,121 --> 00:09:30,561 Speaker 3: anything like that. 152 00:09:30,681 --> 00:09:32,321 Speaker 2: Not that sort of just my kid's sister. 153 00:09:32,401 --> 00:09:35,041 Speaker 3: He was like, I think he used to play barbies 154 00:09:35,081 --> 00:09:36,601 Speaker 3: with me on the way to school sometimes, and his 155 00:09:36,601 --> 00:09:39,041 Speaker 3: friends would be like, oh, chick Allan out, and he'd 156 00:09:39,081 --> 00:09:43,641 Speaker 3: just happily played barbies with me on the way to school. 157 00:09:45,041 --> 00:09:47,761 Speaker 3: I remember having a massive tantrum when Danny was born 158 00:09:47,801 --> 00:09:51,561 Speaker 3: because I wanted the sister. I was probably the closest 159 00:09:51,561 --> 00:09:56,801 Speaker 3: to Alan. I'd lived with him for a period when 160 00:09:56,801 --> 00:10:03,161 Speaker 3: I was seventeen. Yeah, we were pretty close. We had 161 00:10:03,201 --> 00:10:08,561 Speaker 3: a couple of fallings out, as siblings do. I kind 162 00:10:08,561 --> 00:10:10,841 Speaker 3: of I was still angry at the other two for 163 00:10:10,961 --> 00:10:15,081 Speaker 3: not being sisters, to be honest, but they were also 164 00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:18,361 Speaker 3: you know, I was a little bossy will say, and 165 00:10:18,401 --> 00:10:19,281 Speaker 3: I think I was like, oh. 166 00:10:19,241 --> 00:10:21,121 Speaker 2: You're my little brothers like you. 167 00:10:22,641 --> 00:10:25,841 Speaker 3: But whereas you know, my Alan was, you know, the 168 00:10:25,961 --> 00:10:28,321 Speaker 3: one that was sort of you know, if I was 169 00:10:28,321 --> 00:10:30,161 Speaker 3: crying at school because I'd hurt my knee, He'd jump 170 00:10:30,201 --> 00:10:31,681 Speaker 3: off the school bus, pick me up and try and 171 00:10:31,721 --> 00:10:33,601 Speaker 3: calm me down. And so he was always my I 172 00:10:33,601 --> 00:10:34,921 Speaker 3: always looked up to Alan. 173 00:10:34,961 --> 00:10:40,321 Speaker 4: I guess Alan is an important person in the search 174 00:10:40,401 --> 00:10:45,081 Speaker 4: for kadi o'sha. Not only is he her firstborn son, 175 00:10:45,881 --> 00:10:47,921 Speaker 4: he was also one of the last people to see 176 00:10:47,961 --> 00:10:54,281 Speaker 4: his mum before her disappearance. To this day, Alan has 177 00:10:54,401 --> 00:10:56,081 Speaker 4: never agreed to talk to police. 178 00:10:57,801 --> 00:11:01,801 Speaker 6: Brett Devines by name. I'm a detective Senior Sergeant. I'm 179 00:11:01,841 --> 00:11:06,841 Speaker 6: currently attached to the table NDS Crewel Investigation Ancient Queensland. 180 00:11:07,681 --> 00:11:13,601 Speaker 6: I commenced carriage of this investigation in around April May 181 00:11:13,961 --> 00:11:15,761 Speaker 6: of two thousand and six. 182 00:11:16,521 --> 00:11:21,121 Speaker 4: Remembory so Brett was allan helpful at the coroner's inquest. 183 00:11:22,601 --> 00:11:28,001 Speaker 6: While in a word no at the time. Prior to 184 00:11:28,041 --> 00:11:31,681 Speaker 6: the inquest, he was served with a summons to appear 185 00:11:31,961 --> 00:11:35,601 Speaker 6: and give evidence. At the time of the inquest, he 186 00:11:35,641 --> 00:11:39,201 Speaker 6: couldn't be located and a warrant was issued by the 187 00:11:39,201 --> 00:11:45,321 Speaker 6: coroner for his arrest, and to date he hasn't contacted police, 188 00:11:45,601 --> 00:11:51,081 Speaker 6: and subsequently to the inquest, the coroner withdrew the warrant, 189 00:11:51,161 --> 00:11:55,281 Speaker 6: so he's not actually a wanted person, but certainly he 190 00:11:56,041 --> 00:11:59,241 Speaker 6: made no effort to provide further information. 191 00:12:02,001 --> 00:12:04,561 Speaker 4: Let's head back to the early days before any of 192 00:12:04,561 --> 00:12:10,201 Speaker 4: this began, and everything was going well until Lily's mom 193 00:12:10,201 --> 00:12:12,641 Speaker 4: and dad decided to end their relationship. 194 00:12:16,681 --> 00:12:20,641 Speaker 3: It was a pretty shitty time. Mum was pretty upset 195 00:12:22,761 --> 00:12:26,801 Speaker 3: my parents. I believe that they were the loves of 196 00:12:26,841 --> 00:12:32,241 Speaker 3: each other's lives, but they just sometimes people just they 197 00:12:32,281 --> 00:12:33,201 Speaker 3: couldn't make it work. 198 00:12:33,561 --> 00:12:34,561 Speaker 2: So it was. 199 00:12:34,521 --> 00:12:41,161 Speaker 3: Pretty tempestuous, and I know that Mum was pretty devastated 200 00:12:41,681 --> 00:12:45,441 Speaker 3: when they split. So I remember coming home from a 201 00:12:45,481 --> 00:12:49,001 Speaker 3: friend of mine's house and Mum had basically packed up 202 00:12:49,041 --> 00:12:51,641 Speaker 3: the house and we went to live in town in Miller, Miller, 203 00:12:54,401 --> 00:13:01,361 Speaker 3: and then I think we saw Dad every second weekend. 204 00:13:03,281 --> 00:13:04,801 Speaker 2: Yeah, back at the house. 205 00:13:04,801 --> 00:13:08,881 Speaker 3: Week were up in and it was it was hard 206 00:13:08,921 --> 00:13:10,921 Speaker 3: because Mum was sort of dealing with a breakup as well. 207 00:13:14,801 --> 00:13:20,361 Speaker 3: I think that was the saddest I'd seen Mum. I 208 00:13:20,401 --> 00:13:22,761 Speaker 3: got into a fight with Mum one night because I 209 00:13:22,801 --> 00:13:26,641 Speaker 3: wanted to go to live with Dad. I think because 210 00:13:26,641 --> 00:13:30,361 Speaker 3: I've always been a daddy's girl. And then I tried 211 00:13:30,361 --> 00:13:32,281 Speaker 3: to run away from home, which means I snuck out 212 00:13:32,521 --> 00:13:34,681 Speaker 3: my bedroom window and then went to the payphone, which 213 00:13:34,761 --> 00:13:36,881 Speaker 3: was in a small country town. It's about a three 214 00:13:36,961 --> 00:13:42,041 Speaker 3: second walk, and Mum found me and I got in 215 00:13:42,081 --> 00:13:44,561 Speaker 3: a lot of trouble, and then not long after that 216 00:13:44,601 --> 00:13:49,801 Speaker 3: we moved to Melbourne. I moved down to Melbourne first 217 00:13:49,801 --> 00:13:53,161 Speaker 3: because I ran away to the payphone, therefore I was 218 00:13:53,401 --> 00:13:55,281 Speaker 3: being naughty. 219 00:13:55,321 --> 00:13:56,361 Speaker 2: And then Mum I. 220 00:13:56,281 --> 00:13:58,561 Speaker 3: Think she wanted to finish up the school year with 221 00:13:58,601 --> 00:14:01,321 Speaker 3: the other boys from memory. I think that's that's why. 222 00:14:02,681 --> 00:14:06,441 Speaker 3: So I moved down to Melbourne and then Danny, Timmy 223 00:14:06,481 --> 00:14:08,401 Speaker 3: Bridgett and Mum came down about three months. 224 00:14:08,241 --> 00:14:14,601 Speaker 2: After she was living with her. 225 00:14:14,641 --> 00:14:16,761 Speaker 3: Mum again we had had her own place, but my 226 00:14:16,801 --> 00:14:24,241 Speaker 3: grandfather had been diagnosed with melanomak a couple of years 227 00:14:24,281 --> 00:14:28,401 Speaker 3: before that, and so my grandmother was also taken care 228 00:14:28,401 --> 00:14:31,641 Speaker 3: of my cousin whose mum had passed away when he 229 00:14:31,681 --> 00:14:36,241 Speaker 3: was two, and so mum sort of we moved back 230 00:14:36,241 --> 00:14:39,601 Speaker 3: in so Mom could sort of help Pa basically do 231 00:14:39,681 --> 00:14:42,681 Speaker 3: the basic things like go to the toilet and sort 232 00:14:42,681 --> 00:14:44,401 Speaker 3: of just be nursemaid type thing. 233 00:14:47,601 --> 00:14:48,761 Speaker 2: Yeah. 234 00:14:48,881 --> 00:14:52,041 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then yeah, so she was living with my 235 00:14:52,081 --> 00:14:55,241 Speaker 3: grandmother and then I know that she wanted to move out, 236 00:14:55,281 --> 00:14:58,241 Speaker 3: but financially, I don't think she could afford to at 237 00:14:58,241 --> 00:14:58,721 Speaker 3: that point. 238 00:14:58,761 --> 00:15:02,801 Speaker 2: As well, her and my grandmother had. 239 00:15:02,721 --> 00:15:12,281 Speaker 3: A pretty complicated relationship. Will say, my grandmother's very she's 240 00:15:12,321 --> 00:15:16,881 Speaker 3: not a hippie. We'll say, so, she's very Catholic. You know, 241 00:15:17,841 --> 00:15:19,961 Speaker 3: you get married, you do this, you do this, and 242 00:15:20,001 --> 00:15:23,841 Speaker 3: whereas you know, mum was ran away of the hippies, 243 00:15:23,881 --> 00:15:27,921 Speaker 3: had five kids out of wedlock, and that she just 244 00:15:29,241 --> 00:15:34,041 Speaker 3: didn't sort of I guess mesh with the with I 245 00:15:34,041 --> 00:15:35,961 Speaker 3: guess the idea that my grandmother had no head for 246 00:15:36,001 --> 00:15:40,281 Speaker 3: how she wanted her to turn out. And they're both 247 00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:42,281 Speaker 3: very strong personalities as well. 248 00:15:42,361 --> 00:15:47,841 Speaker 4: So Katie Lily's mum had three sisters, but as Lily 249 00:15:47,921 --> 00:15:51,761 Speaker 4: tells us, she was closest to her older sister Colleen. 250 00:15:51,961 --> 00:15:56,801 Speaker 3: Her younger sister and her brother were like grandmother. But 251 00:15:57,041 --> 00:16:00,161 Speaker 3: her older sister Colleen, who had passed away when I 252 00:16:00,161 --> 00:16:04,241 Speaker 3: think I was thirteen or fourteen, she and mum were 253 00:16:04,281 --> 00:16:08,721 Speaker 3: a born a year of and Mum was devastated. She'd 254 00:16:08,761 --> 00:16:13,241 Speaker 3: passed away quite suddenly. She had an rhythm and yeah, 255 00:16:13,281 --> 00:16:16,801 Speaker 3: that gutted Mum. That just destroyed her because that was 256 00:16:16,921 --> 00:16:20,001 Speaker 3: essentially that was her best friend. And you know, without 257 00:16:20,481 --> 00:16:23,921 Speaker 3: I guess Colleen. You know, there was out of the 258 00:16:23,921 --> 00:16:26,241 Speaker 3: four kids, there were the two naughty ones and then 259 00:16:26,281 --> 00:16:29,321 Speaker 3: the two sort of good ones, and then with Colleen 260 00:16:29,361 --> 00:16:31,921 Speaker 3: passing on, it was just the one naughty one. So 261 00:16:31,961 --> 00:16:34,601 Speaker 3: she was sort of automatically outcast into the black sheet, 262 00:16:34,881 --> 00:16:35,681 Speaker 3: if that makes sense. 263 00:16:37,321 --> 00:16:41,321 Speaker 4: Family are complicated, and the O'Shea family was no different. 264 00:16:42,281 --> 00:16:44,761 Speaker 4: I wanted to know from Lily if her mum was 265 00:16:44,841 --> 00:16:47,681 Speaker 4: happy when she went missing, given that she'd had a 266 00:16:47,721 --> 00:16:52,081 Speaker 4: few tough years with the breakup of the relationship, a 267 00:16:52,161 --> 00:16:57,881 Speaker 4: sister dying, and a strained relationship with her own mum, she. 268 00:16:58,881 --> 00:17:03,681 Speaker 3: Was thrilled about my niece being born. But she hated 269 00:17:03,721 --> 00:17:11,521 Speaker 3: living with my grandmother and she hated Melbourne. But she 270 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: was like she was happy. She just I think there 271 00:17:14,241 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: are a few things in her life that she wanted 272 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,681 Speaker 3: to be happier about, if that makes sense. I think 273 00:17:20,721 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 3: one of the last when I last spoke to her, 274 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,721 Speaker 3: she I know that she was upset because she'd rang 275 00:17:26,761 --> 00:17:29,521 Speaker 3: my grandmother a couple of days after because there's no 276 00:17:29,521 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 3: phone reception up where she was, so if she wanted 277 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,201 Speaker 3: to sort of make calls, it was I was always 278 00:17:36,561 --> 00:17:39,121 Speaker 3: there was that bit of a delay. So I think 279 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,001 Speaker 3: she rang my grandmother and she said, Okay, I love you, mom, 280 00:17:41,001 --> 00:17:42,961 Speaker 3: and my grandmother had said yeah, whatever and hung up, 281 00:17:43,961 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: And so I know that Mum was crying and going 282 00:17:45,681 --> 00:17:48,721 Speaker 3: she can't, I think, say that she loves me. She's 283 00:17:48,761 --> 00:17:52,761 Speaker 3: pretty upset about that. Other than that, she was, you know, 284 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,761 Speaker 3: she had a lot of things to look forward to. 285 00:17:54,921 --> 00:17:59,121 Speaker 3: She was planning on coming home and doing wing chun 286 00:17:59,241 --> 00:18:04,041 Speaker 3: kung fu. Her brother was getting married, so she was 287 00:18:04,241 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 3: excited to get all u st up for the wedding. 288 00:18:06,001 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 3: And you know, she was a grandma, which she was 289 00:18:08,561 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 3: beyond thrilled about. Yeah, I think, like I think there 290 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: are a couple of things that she was unhappy about 291 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 3: as far as her home life, but other than that 292 00:18:19,481 --> 00:18:20,521 Speaker 3: she was she was good. 293 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,041 Speaker 4: How's your relationship with your grandparents and your mum's sister. 294 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 3: Now, my grandfather passed away when I was sixteen, and 295 00:18:31,201 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 3: I have very little to do with Mum's side of 296 00:18:33,441 --> 00:18:37,001 Speaker 3: the family, given how absent they've been in helping look 297 00:18:37,041 --> 00:18:37,361 Speaker 3: for mum. 298 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,001 Speaker 2: They haven't. 299 00:18:42,041 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: I think they've, but they didn't appear at the inquest 300 00:18:45,561 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: to my knowledge. I don't even think they inquired about 301 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: how the inquest went from my little brother, who was 302 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,561 Speaker 3: he's Danny's I like to say he's like Sweden. 303 00:18:57,281 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: He just he's neutral, whereas I'm not. 304 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: And so so, Yeah, I think I don't think my 305 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,721 Speaker 3: grandmother's asked about how the inquest was. I don't even 306 00:19:11,721 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: think she's I don't think she's called the police to 307 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,721 Speaker 3: see any status is on the case. I don't think 308 00:19:16,721 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 3: my aunt has. I don't think my uncle has, so 309 00:19:22,921 --> 00:19:24,801 Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, if you like, if you're, 310 00:19:25,921 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 3: they kind of treated it pretty poorly when she was alive, 311 00:19:28,521 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 3: and they haven't treated her much better than she's been gone. 312 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 4: You talked about your mum was a really strong woman, 313 00:19:34,441 --> 00:19:40,641 Speaker 4: strong willed. You seem the same, I. 314 00:19:40,561 --> 00:19:45,201 Speaker 2: Guess, so. I think I had to harden up fast. 315 00:19:45,521 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 3: I think because I was young when mum went missing, 316 00:19:49,201 --> 00:19:51,481 Speaker 3: so and then you know, I sort of had to 317 00:19:51,521 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 3: step up, so I guess. 318 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,961 Speaker 4: So. But your mom had a good friend, John Mackenzie, 319 00:19:56,001 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 4: who is John. 320 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 3: John Mackenzie was actually my uncle, so my aunt that 321 00:20:04,521 --> 00:20:06,241 Speaker 3: had passed way when. 322 00:20:07,441 --> 00:20:07,921 Speaker 2: I was. 323 00:20:10,441 --> 00:20:12,721 Speaker 3: I want to say twelve, thirteen or fourteen, in those 324 00:20:12,761 --> 00:20:15,641 Speaker 3: sort of span, that sort of span. He was actually 325 00:20:15,761 --> 00:20:19,521 Speaker 3: the father to one of her kids. They were together 326 00:20:19,561 --> 00:20:26,241 Speaker 3: for about ten years. They were still quite friendly and yeah, 327 00:20:26,321 --> 00:20:29,321 Speaker 3: Mum sort of still had a friendly relationship with him 328 00:20:30,521 --> 00:20:34,721 Speaker 3: or like afterwards as well. She considered him family. There 329 00:20:34,761 --> 00:20:41,401 Speaker 3: may have been some romantic relationship at some point. However, 330 00:20:42,521 --> 00:20:44,401 Speaker 3: Mum sort of made it a policy not to tell 331 00:20:44,481 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: us about her that sort of thing because a one 332 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: gross and I think she just she didn't want to 333 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,561 Speaker 3: confuse Bridget as well, you know, with she want to 334 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,321 Speaker 3: be one of those women that kept bringing new dad's 335 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,321 Speaker 3: home and stuff like that. She just sort of she 336 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,441 Speaker 3: wanted to keep that part of her life, I think, 337 00:21:04,521 --> 00:21:04,921 Speaker 3: just for her. 338 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,521 Speaker 4: And John was helpful around that time. He helped your 339 00:21:09,561 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 4: mom get up to Queensland. 340 00:21:11,041 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 2: Before Yeah, yeah, they were, they were pretty close. 341 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,761 Speaker 3: She did some housework for him on occasions, he helped 342 00:21:19,801 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: out financially if she needed it. I remember he bought 343 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,761 Speaker 3: he helped buy my first hairdressing kit when I was 344 00:21:25,801 --> 00:21:32,161 Speaker 3: a first year apprentice, And yeah, he was. 345 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,001 Speaker 2: Family. 346 00:21:36,321 --> 00:21:39,481 Speaker 4: And how did John cope with your mum's disappearance? 347 00:21:40,521 --> 00:21:45,121 Speaker 3: To be honest, we've only just reconnected because when Mum 348 00:21:45,201 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: first were missing, I was kind of fed some really 349 00:21:47,921 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 3: landish theories on him somehow being involved in it. 350 00:21:52,721 --> 00:21:53,601 Speaker 2: So I sort of. 351 00:21:55,561 --> 00:21:58,161 Speaker 3: Being young and confused and not knowing what the hell 352 00:21:58,241 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 3: is going on and why this is happening, I sort 353 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 3: of because it was the only thing that sort of 354 00:22:01,921 --> 00:22:03,721 Speaker 3: made sense at that time, I sort of latched onto 355 00:22:03,761 --> 00:22:07,561 Speaker 3: that for a little bit. But we've since reconnected and 356 00:22:07,681 --> 00:22:10,281 Speaker 3: I've apologized and we're on good terms, and I know 357 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 3: that he misses Mum. 358 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,881 Speaker 4: And so those outlandish theories, and this often happens when 359 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 4: people go missing, that people have their own theories on 360 00:22:24,721 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 4: what happened and how it happened. What were some of 361 00:22:26,961 --> 00:22:29,161 Speaker 4: those theories that came to mind around John? 362 00:22:33,441 --> 00:22:35,121 Speaker 2: My brother had told me that. 363 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: Mum had done some illicit things for him, and that 364 00:22:43,561 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 3: it was he was the reason that apparently at one 365 00:22:46,801 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: point even said the Russian mafia came up and took 366 00:22:48,921 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: Mum because it was she'd done something for John and 367 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,241 Speaker 3: then it had backfired, and then they took her and 368 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,641 Speaker 3: hot shots and just it was. To be honest, if 369 00:23:00,681 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: I hadn't had my head sort of so far up 370 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 3: in the clouds, I would have I would have gone, 371 00:23:04,441 --> 00:23:04,961 Speaker 3: you know whatever. 372 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: But you know, being young, vulnerable and confused. 373 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,761 Speaker 4: And which brother was this? 374 00:23:16,441 --> 00:23:21,681 Speaker 2: Alan? You opened the scy. 375 00:23:22,441 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 5: Carrie to the mountains, my friend? You see the looka. 376 00:23:35,201 --> 00:23:36,041 Speaker 4: She'll love me. 377 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,481 Speaker 2: In the next episode of Missing or Murdered. 378 00:23:46,481 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 6: There really are only two persons of interested this stage. 379 00:23:50,761 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 3: I don't know how long they were on the phone for, 380 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,281 Speaker 3: but I do know that Mum cried. 381 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,721 Speaker 2: It makes me physically ill just thinking about it. 382 00:23:58,241 --> 00:24:01,041 Speaker 3: I think it's a bit strange that she bought Stout 383 00:24:01,441 --> 00:24:04,241 Speaker 3: and then when he dropped, she left us Stout in 384 00:24:04,321 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: the car up. The last words she said to me 385 00:24:07,241 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: was don't forget how much I love you and how 386 00:24:08,761 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 3: proud of you I am. Now was it, and she 387 00:24:16,481 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 3: was gone. 388 00:24:22,201 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story. 389 00:24:25,681 --> 00:24:28,481 Speaker 4: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what pod shape 390 00:24:28,561 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 4: really cares about. Right now, There's thousands of people listening 391 00:24:31,681 --> 00:24:34,161 Speaker 4: to this show and our other true Crimes, and they're 392 00:24:34,201 --> 00:24:37,881 Speaker 4: completely engaged. More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts 393 00:24:37,921 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 4: each week. If you've ever thought about advertising your business 394 00:24:41,201 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 4: in a podcast, there's a link to reach out in 395 00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 4: the show notes, or head to podshape dot com to 396 00:24:46,441 --> 00:24:47,241 Speaker 4: book a free call.