1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Alexander Downer, our longest serving foreign minister, has been in 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: the US for the last month, observing, amongst other things, 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: the political process over there. He's written an article about 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: it in The Australian Today. How would you choose between 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. Let's put it to him, 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: Alexander down a good morning. 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: Good morning, Nice to speak to you. Well, I think 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: the short answer is that Donald Trump is a pretty 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: vulgar sort of politician. Certainly Australians would recoil that the 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: sort of language he uses in public debate. On the 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: other hand, I think Kamala Harris would be quite divisive. 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: You know, she's into all of this segmenting society into 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: race and gender and sexual preferences and so on. So 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: when it comes to judging between the two, you have 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: to make a rational judgment about who would be best 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: for the global and the American economy. Who would stand 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: up for the Western lead Western values against our adversaries 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: and handle some of their domestic issues a bit better 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: than they have been handled in recent years. So that's 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: the test I would put them to. 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: All Right, you've come up with four criteria, talk us 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: through that. What should Americans do. And isn't it good 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: We're not Americans to have to make this terrible choice. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I say, glad I was. There are 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons why us. I'm glad I was 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 2: born in Australia, not an American. But look, I think, 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: first and foremost, from our point of view, we need 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: a strong America in the world that will stand up 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: to Iran and it's surrogates, Hamas Hezbala, the Huthis, China 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: of course, and Russia in Ukraine. We need a president 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: who will be very strong, decisive, implacable in standing up 32 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: to those adversaries. Secondly, you need someone who will be 33 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: you know, economically rational, make sure the budget balance is 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: a bit better, make sure that the investment flows and 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: so not imposing punishing taxes on the economy. Thirdly, immigration 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: is a huge issue in the US. It's not immigration itself, 37 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: because it's a country of migrants predominantly. It's it's illegal immigration. 38 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: I mean, under President Biden, something like ten million illegal 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: migrants have come in across the southern border. I mean 40 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 2: that has to be broad under control. And then finally, 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: I mean I think they got to get away from 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: this these divisive cultural wars where society is salami sliced 43 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: into gender and sexual preference and race and so on. 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: Just get away from that and try to find a 45 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: narrative that unites the country and common values that unite 46 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: the country. So if I take those four criteria, I mean, honestly, 47 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: Trump and Harris fall down on some of them. There's 48 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: no doubt about that Harris would be weak. I think 49 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: on immigration, Harris would be weak uniting the country on 50 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: foreign policy hard to know. And on economy, I think 51 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: she'd spend too much money. So on balance, despite the 52 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: fact that I don't like Trump's trade policies, I think 53 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: Trump would be better than Harris. 54 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: Well do you think, I mean, we get soundbites over here, 55 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: as you know, we get a little bit in the 56 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: news and sort of make a judgment on that. I 57 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: think the thought process, probably around the world, including in America, 58 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: is out of three hundred and thirty odd million people, 59 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: you can only come up with, well, Trump and Biden. 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: Is Harris? Now the breakthrough in that sort of thought. 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think, actually, to be frank, I think whatever 62 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: people thought of Biden over the years, I mean I 63 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: thought he was a fair average quality politician. I met 64 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: Biden on one occasion when he was the chairman of 65 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and I spent half an 66 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: hour with him. But you know, unexciting, not particularly brilliant. 67 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: But I don't want to sound age just as people 68 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: would say now, but he just does seem beyond it 69 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: and it was definitely time for him to retire. Well, 70 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: that's not a problem with Kamala Harris. I mean, I 71 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: think what you have now is a choice between somebody 72 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: like Trump, who's quite conservative, but his language is so unconservative, 73 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: is as I like to say, is so vulgar, and 74 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris, whose language is fine, but who is very 75 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: left wing and trying to push America further and further 76 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: to the left. So you know, if your left wing, 77 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: you would definitely go for Kamala Harris. If you're right wing, 78 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: you'd be well advised to go for Donald Trump despite 79 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: his vulgarity. I mean, I think his policies are on 80 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: balance slightly better, and I mean he has more policies 81 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: than Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris doesn't have any. 82 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: Is she tainted by the Biden administration? I mean, I 83 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: know Trump has already been painting her as well. What 84 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: has she done? She's never won a primary to get 85 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: to where she is. She, you know, is just there 86 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: on being the number two choice to Joe Biden when 87 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: he selected her as vice president. So is that resonating 88 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: over there? Is Trump getting through with that sort of 89 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: talk or is it too early to tell? 90 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: Really, it's probably too early to tell. But I don't 91 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: think that would play into the mindset of Americans. No. 92 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: I think they will be relieved that Biden has called stumps, 93 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: as we might say, has quit and they see I mean, 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: Harris is fifty nine, so she's a good age to 95 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: be running for president. She doesn't look old, she's very articulate, 96 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: something imbalanced. People will overwhelmingly will think it's for the best, 97 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: and I don't think they will particularly care how she's 98 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: being chosen as the Democratic Party candidate. I think for 99 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: her being associated with Biden has one big downside, and 100 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: that's the illegal immigration issue, because Biden put her in 101 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: charge of trying to resolve the illegal immigration problem, and 102 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: obviously she didn't do it, and the Biden administration didn't 103 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: do it. And I think that is a real shift 104 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: of an issue frankly, so Trump will campaign pretty hard 105 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: on that and also on a left wing record. 106 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: Did they want to do it? Did they want to 107 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: control because of that left wing origin? Did they want 108 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: to control the border? Really? 109 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: Well, they're half hearted about it because they, you know, 110 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: want to be humane. On the one hand, say well, 111 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: we have to police our border, and so they end 112 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: up with a very weak policy which plays into the 113 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: hands of people smugglers. I mean, what people smugglers do 114 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: is gain the refugee convention, so everyone claims they're a 115 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: refuge and the definition of a refugee, by the way, 116 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: is getting broader and broader. There is something like, according 117 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: to the British Home Office, there is something like seven 118 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty million people worldwide who could qualify for 119 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: refugee status under the current definitions of a refugee. So 120 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: people smugglers are gaining that refugee convention, and so the 121 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: people who come across the border or claim to be refugees. Actually, 122 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: to be fair, the Biden administration has started to draw 123 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: the line at that and say well, we're not going 124 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: to just take people because they claim to be refugees. 125 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: But they've only just started to do that so it's 126 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: probably too late politically, all. 127 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: Right, UCUS, Now you've been pretty controversial on this, saying 128 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: unlikely anything's going to happen here in the next you know, 129 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: fifteen years or whatever the timeline is. To be precise, 130 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: I think around twenty thirty nine to twenty forty first 131 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: subs rolling out of Osborne. But what does the election 132 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: of either Harris or Trump mean for ORCUS in your view? 133 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: I don't think it means anything. I think both of 134 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: them would continue you to support AUCUS. You know, one 135 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: of the lines that is used by the left against 136 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: Trump is that NATO, Aucus, the Anders Alliance and so 137 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: on will all be put in jeopardy because Donald Trump 138 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: becomes the president. Well, it was the president for four 139 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: years before, and they NATO continued and you know, the 140 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: Anders Treaty continued strongly throughout all of that period. And 141 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: I mean I've spoken to some of the Trump people, 142 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: not to Trump himself, but to some of the foreign 143 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: policy people around Trump, and they're all supportive of AUCUS. 144 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: So I mean, my point about UCAS is that it's 145 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 2: obviously not rational to build the submarines in Australia because 146 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 2: that will cost us something like three hundred and sixty 147 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: billion dollars. That's just way too much and no, no 148 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: government in the end is going to spend that money. 149 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: So we may as well tell people, in all honesty, 150 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: we're going to buy these submarines off the shelf, whether 151 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: have them built in the UK or of the US, 152 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: but we're still going to have nuclear powered submarines, so 153 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: we're going to stick with UCUS. But I mean, we 154 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: could use that three hundred and sixty billion dollars on 155 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: a lot of other things which would be very beneficial 156 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 2: to South Australia. 157 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: Indeed, Alexander down are always wonderful getting your insights. Thank 158 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: you so much for your time. 159 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 2: It's a great pleasure.