WEBVTT - How the internet is about to change for everyone

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Australia's plan to ban teenagers from social media has been

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<v Speaker 1>called world leading well.

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<v Speaker 2>While first in Australia, where Parliament there has given a

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<v Speaker 2>green light to a bill banning social media for users

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<v Speaker 2>under the age of sixteen and it's introduced.

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<v Speaker 3>The new legislation could see tech companies like TikTok, Facebook

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<v Speaker 3>and Instagram find up to fifty million Australian dollars that's

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<v Speaker 3>almost thirty one million euros if they fail to comply.

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<v Speaker 1>But as we get closer to its introduction, questions are

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<v Speaker 1>being raised about what it actually means to verify age

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<v Speaker 1>on social media and the implications for online privacy for

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<v Speaker 1>all Internet users today. Digital rights advocates Samanta Floriani on

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<v Speaker 1>the risks of the ban amid a global regulatory arms Raceday,

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<v Speaker 1>November thirty. This episode was originally published in July, so

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<v Speaker 1>Samantha will get into the details of the social media

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<v Speaker 1>ban in a moment. But first, it seems like YouTube

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<v Speaker 1>will now be included in this ban. Originally it was

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<v Speaker 1>not going to be, So what's changed.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So, initially.

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<v Speaker 5>YouTube was excluded from the teen social media ban, which

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<v Speaker 5>made a lot of the other social media giants really upset.

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<v Speaker 5>They were really angry about this. But in June, the

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<v Speaker 5>e Safety Commissioner made a speech to the National Press

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<v Speaker 5>Club where she revealed that she had advised the Minister

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<v Speaker 5>for Communications, Annika Wells, that the government should not exempt

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<v Speaker 5>YouTube from the ban.

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<v Speaker 6>YouTube was the only one exempted. Our recommendation was that

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<v Speaker 6>no specific platform be exempted because, as I said, their

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<v Speaker 6>relative risks and homes can change at any moment.

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<v Speaker 5>And this was off the back of research that her

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<v Speaker 5>office had conducted which revealed that YouTube was one of

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<v Speaker 5>the most used platforms by children under sixteen years of age.

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<v Speaker 6>YouTube was the most frequently cited platform in our research,

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<v Speaker 6>with almost four and ten children reporting exposure retiremful content.

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<v Speaker 5>There, and the research also included some findings about a

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<v Speaker 5>younger cohort of users so ages ten to twelve, who

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<v Speaker 5>were more likely to be exposed to harmful content on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 6>This also comes as The New York Times reported earlier

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<v Speaker 6>this month that YouTube surreptitiously ruled back its content moderation

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<v Speaker 6>processes to keep more harmful content on its platform.

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<v Speaker 5>So it seems that essentially the backflip has come off

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<v Speaker 5>the back of advice from the E Safety Commissioner based

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<v Speaker 5>on this research.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, and so what do we.

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<v Speaker 1>Know that meant about how YouTube and its ownA Google,

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<v Speaker 1>how they're likely to respond.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, we could already see that they've been quite aggressive

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<v Speaker 5>in their response.

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<v Speaker 4>YouTube is galvanizing Ossie creators.

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<v Speaker 5>Though, to respond, you're worried about them?

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<v Speaker 7>YouTube did send the Wiggles to try and persuade me

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<v Speaker 7>to their positions, did they?

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<v Speaker 4>They did? They sent Big.

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<v Speaker 5>Wiggle, and Google, which owns YouTube, threatened legal action in

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<v Speaker 5>a letter to the Communications Minister.

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<v Speaker 8>Look you worried about legal action.

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<v Speaker 7>I mean, we have had threats come in, but look,

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<v Speaker 7>you know, I've got sharp elbows. This is too important

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<v Speaker 7>for us not to have a crack.

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<v Speaker 5>So it'll be interesting to see if they make good

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<v Speaker 5>on that threats. They've been arguing pretty strongly that YouTube

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<v Speaker 5>is not a social media platform. Basically, what they're saying

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<v Speaker 5>is that it lacks some of the features designed to

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<v Speaker 5>facilitate social connections in the same way that many other

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<v Speaker 5>social media platforms. Do you know whether or not you

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<v Speaker 5>agree with that. That's sort of the stats that they've

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<v Speaker 5>been really trying to push. They've also been pushing this

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<v Speaker 5>idea that you know, YouTube is home to a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of educational content. You know, it's regularly used in Australian

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<v Speaker 5>classrooms and so on. So it will be interesting to

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<v Speaker 5>see whether there's fall out off the back.

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<v Speaker 1>Of this, and so the Australian government, they're really relying

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<v Speaker 1>on this argument that YouTube contains all of the same

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<v Speaker 1>harms to young people, like algorithms, AutoPlay, both sorts of things,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why it should be included. What does the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence say about the harm or otherwise of YouTube on

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<v Speaker 1>young people?

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<v Speaker 5>You know, in general, there is a lot of conflicting

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<v Speaker 5>research and evidence on all social media fronts. You can

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<v Speaker 5>find research that suggests that social media is overwhelmingly beneficial.

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<v Speaker 5>You can find research that suggests it's, you know, absolutely terrible.

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<v Speaker 5>I think in reality, it's always going to be more

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<v Speaker 5>complicated than that. There are plenty of positives that come

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<v Speaker 5>with something like YouTube. You know, plenty of teachers use

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<v Speaker 5>it in classrooms, plenty of parents use it with their children.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think where we get into.

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<v Speaker 5>Trouble as if we start to try to categorize these

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<v Speaker 5>things as.

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<v Speaker 4>All good or all bad.

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<v Speaker 5>But you know, as the research shows from the e

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<v Speaker 5>Safety Commissioner, there there are harms that are occurring on YouTube,

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<v Speaker 5>and you know, I think it is reasonable to demand

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<v Speaker 5>social media giants to be taking more proactive steps to

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<v Speaker 5>ensure that their products are you know, safer experiences for

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<v Speaker 5>children and young people, but people of all ages as well.

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<v Speaker 5>To be honest, there is I guess an outstanding question

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<v Speaker 5>as to whether age verification is the best option for that,

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<v Speaker 5>but this is the one that we're currently entertaining.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, let's talk about the nuts and bolts of

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<v Speaker 1>the social media band. How would it or does it

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<v Speaker 1>actually work in practice?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so, from just the social media platforms that are

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<v Speaker 5>captured by Part four A of the Online Safety Act

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<v Speaker 5>will have to take reasonable steps to prevent people under

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<v Speaker 5>the age of sixteen from having accounts on their platforms.

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<v Speaker 4>So most social media platforms.

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<v Speaker 5>Already have a minimum age requirement of thirteen, but the

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<v Speaker 5>way that they enforce this is really sort of lackluster

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<v Speaker 5>and quite ineffective. You know, it's usually just asking people

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<v Speaker 5>to put in their date of birth. Obviously this is

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<v Speaker 5>not working. So from December they'll be expected to do

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<v Speaker 5>much more to verify that their users are actually over

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<v Speaker 5>the age of sixteen.

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<v Speaker 7>Come ten December. It means that if your kid has

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<v Speaker 7>a YouTube log in or another social media platform log in,

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<v Speaker 7>the platform needs to deactivate it, and the platform needs

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<v Speaker 7>to take reasonable steps to make sure that kids don't

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<v Speaker 7>activate new logins and where they find their way around this.

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<v Speaker 7>Because we know that kids will God bless them, the

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<v Speaker 7>platforms take reasonable steps to mitigate that from happening.

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<v Speaker 5>Into Unfortunately, we still don't know exactly what this will

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<v Speaker 5>look like in practice for everyday users of social media,

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<v Speaker 5>and that's because there are a range of options that

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<v Speaker 5>platforms could take to do this. On Wednesday, Communications Minister

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<v Speaker 5>Anaka Wells did make assurances that platforms will not be

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<v Speaker 5>required to collect identity documents like a passport or a

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<v Speaker 5>driver's license.

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<v Speaker 7>In order to do this, platforms have to provide an

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<v Speaker 7>alternative to providing your own personal identification documents to satisfy

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<v Speaker 7>themselves of aid.

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<v Speaker 5>For instance, they might get people to put in their

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<v Speaker 5>credit card details, or they might use biometric face scanning

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<v Speaker 5>to guess the age of the person based on their face,

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<v Speaker 5>and she suggested that some platforms might be able to

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<v Speaker 5>infer people's age based on the data that they already

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<v Speaker 5>have about them.

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<v Speaker 7>These platforms know with deadly accuracy who we are, what

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<v Speaker 7>we do, and when we do it. And they know

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<v Speaker 7>that you've had a Facebook account since two thousand nine,

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<v Speaker 7>so they know that you're over sixteen. There's lots of

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<v Speaker 7>ways that this.

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<v Speaker 5>Can be done, but something that's important to understand I

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<v Speaker 5>think about this is that this will change the way

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<v Speaker 5>that everyone.

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<v Speaker 4>Uses social media, you know, not just people under the

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<v Speaker 4>age of sixteen.

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<v Speaker 5>Everyone including adults, will need to verify their age in

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<v Speaker 5>whatever way they end up doing this, not just children.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, how the Internet is changing for everyone?

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<v Speaker 1>This maad that if everyone who uses the Internet is

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<v Speaker 1>going to end up having to provide some sort of identification,

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<v Speaker 1>even if we don't know exactly what that is yet,

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<v Speaker 1>how will that change the way that we all use

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so, again, it will depend on how it's implemented,

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<v Speaker 5>But there are some immediate concerns that come to mind,

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<v Speaker 5>one of which is privacy and data protection or digital security.

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<v Speaker 5>So if we are wired to provide additional data to

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<v Speaker 5>these tech giants or to third party age assurance platforms,

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<v Speaker 5>that does mean handing over, you know, more information to

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<v Speaker 5>companies that already have a huge amount of information about us.

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<v Speaker 5>I think people are more aware than ever of the

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<v Speaker 5>risks that come with providing things like identity documents or

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<v Speaker 5>other sensitive and personal information off the back of you know,

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<v Speaker 5>all of these large scale data breaches.

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<v Speaker 4>I think people are rightfully so quite scared about what

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<v Speaker 4>that means.

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<v Speaker 5>There are also concerns about the potential to be able

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<v Speaker 5>to essentially link your behavior on social media or other

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<v Speaker 5>you know, online services and websites to your identity.

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<v Speaker 4>Again, we don't know, because we don't know.

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<v Speaker 5>The specifics of how it will be implemented, whether this

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<v Speaker 5>is likely to happen or not, but there are I

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<v Speaker 5>think genuine fears and reasonable fear is about the potential

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<v Speaker 5>for this to essentially contribute to a global trend towards

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<v Speaker 5>policing online content and being able to monitor the way

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<v Speaker 5>that people are accessing various forms of information online. And

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<v Speaker 5>something else that I think is important to note is

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<v Speaker 5>that it's not just going to be happening on social media.

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<v Speaker 5>Search engines in December will also be expected to verify

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<v Speaker 5>the age of their logged in users. And what is

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<v Speaker 5>the rationale for that this is kind of happening in

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<v Speaker 5>tandem to the teen social media Then basically there's a

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<v Speaker 5>set of new industry codes that are also coming into

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<v Speaker 5>effect in December that would mean that search engines will

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<v Speaker 5>also have to verify users age Their E Safety Commissioner

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<v Speaker 5>has basically said that there needs to be a layered

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<v Speaker 5>approach and that they need want to come at it

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<v Speaker 5>from all different directions, and that the idea being that

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<v Speaker 5>search engines are sort of one entry point into potentially

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<v Speaker 5>harmful material.

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<v Speaker 1>And the UK has just started age verification for pornography

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<v Speaker 1>I believe what can we learn from how that's going.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so the UK within the last week has brought

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<v Speaker 5>in new stringent regulations that mean that any website offering

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<v Speaker 5>adult content to UK users needs to take reasonable steps

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<v Speaker 5>to verify the age of anyone visiting that website from

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<v Speaker 5>the UK. So very similar kind of approach to what

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<v Speaker 5>we're doing here in Australia. So off the back of this,

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<v Speaker 5>there's been more than four hundred thousand UK citizens have

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<v Speaker 5>signed a parliamentary petition demanding that the Act be repealed,

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<v Speaker 5>which I think suggests that quite a few people were

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<v Speaker 5>perhaps taken by surprise about what it meant in reality,

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<v Speaker 5>and a really upset about it. In addition to that,

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<v Speaker 5>a popular VPN product, so a VPN basically enables people

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<v Speaker 5>to bypass this age verification process by masking their location,

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<v Speaker 5>so they can essentially pretend to be logging in from

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<v Speaker 5>somewhere that isn't the UK. So a popular VPN product

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<v Speaker 5>said that they've seen more than an eighteen thousand percent

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<v Speaker 5>increase in daily signups from UK based users since Friday.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's a massive uptick in people using VPNs to

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<v Speaker 5>get around these restrictions. So again, that suggests that a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of people are actively trying to get around it,

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<v Speaker 5>and that it's quite easy to get around using a VPN,

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<v Speaker 5>which raises questions about the sort of efficacy of the

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<v Speaker 5>whole thing as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that's something that comes up a lot, right,

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<v Speaker 1>whether or not you can actually bend teenagers from using

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<v Speaker 1>these platforms exactly.

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<v Speaker 5>The other thing that has been interesting to note off

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<v Speaker 5>the back of the UK ban is that there's been

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<v Speaker 5>lots of reporting about how there have been websites and

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<v Speaker 5>smaller online forums, many of which are completely innocuous, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>not harmful of children, and they've opted to just geo

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<v Speaker 5>block their services to the UK entirely simply because they

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<v Speaker 5>don't have the resources to support third party age for

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<v Speaker 5>aification and they can't risk the potential finds. So you know,

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<v Speaker 5>we might see a similar thing here where rather than

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<v Speaker 5>having to deal with age for eification or risk finds

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<v Speaker 5>that we might see you know, websites and forums just

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<v Speaker 5>completely pull out of Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's fair to say the rest of the world

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<v Speaker 1>is watching this pretty closely.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I think this is.

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<v Speaker 5>Part of a global push to age gate more and

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<v Speaker 5>more of the Internet. There's been a lot of emphasis

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<v Speaker 5>on online safety of late. I think it's fair to

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<v Speaker 5>say that there's kind of a bit of a regulatory

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<v Speaker 5>arms race happening between you know here and the UK

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<v Speaker 5>in particular. I think it's entirely reasonable to demand digital platforms,

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<v Speaker 5>social media platforms, all of these tech giants to be

0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.959
<v Speaker 5>doing much more when it comes to, you know, ensuring

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<v Speaker 5>the safety of their users. So what's striking to me

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<v Speaker 5>here is that there are you know, these are really

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<v Speaker 5>big decisions that do change the way that everyone will

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<v Speaker 5>use the Internet, not just on social media, and you know,

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<v Speaker 5>to me, this warrants much more robust public conversation and

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<v Speaker 5>parliamentary debate.

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<v Speaker 8>Well Smitha, thank you so much for your type, no worries,

0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:35.520
<v Speaker 8>thank you so much for having me, thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 1>Tomorrow, I'm bringing you the story of a man who's

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<v Speaker 1>blown the whistle on the monumental waste and alleged corruption

0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 1>happening at the Department of Home Affairs. This man took

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<v Speaker 1>a job overseeing massive contracts offshore processing and he saw

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.520
<v Speaker 1>millions of dollars being wasted on deals no longer fit

0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 1>for purpose. But when he blew the whistle, no one listened.

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<v Speaker 5>Because I was a newcom up, because I'd come from

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<v Speaker 5>the un system, because I'd come from in from outside

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<v Speaker 5>of public service.

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<v Speaker 4>I just naturally walked around and asked.

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<v Speaker 8>These questions, you know, because they were so fucking op

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 8>years and people would literally stare at you like you

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 8>had three fucking heads.

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<v Speaker 1>Tomorrow, the culture of secrecy and the silence that goes

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<v Speaker 1>all the way to the top of Australia's offshore detention system.