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Speaker 1: If you or someone that you care about has experienced

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Speaker 1: any kind of childhood trauma, you'll know how long something

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Speaker 1: like that can affect you. Even as an adult. You

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Speaker 1: might think you're over it. It happened a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: I don't need help, thanks very much. You're the one

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Speaker 1: who needs help. Leave me alone. I'm fine over here,

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Speaker 1: just doom scrolling in my phone or binging one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty eight hours of streaming procedurals. Noah, Yeah, childhood

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Speaker 1: trauma's heavy duty, man. Thankfully, there's treatment. There's a way

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Speaker 1: to actually live free of traumatic things which might have

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Speaker 1: happened to you, because no matter who you are, no

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Speaker 1: matter how much money you have, you really can't insulate

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Speaker 1: yourself from poor mental health. My guest today is Darren Hayes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the pop star. In his new book Unlovable, Darren documents

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Speaker 1: what is a truly harrowing upbringing filled with incomprehensible violence,

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Speaker 1: and he also documents his escape not only into music,

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Speaker 1: but an escape into internationally successful popsuit bestardom, which is

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Speaker 1: exactly where he was that he realized the truth behind

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Speaker 1: the John Cabotzen line. Wherever you go, there you are.

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Speaker 1: It's the second time Darren's been on the show and

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Speaker 1: the first time he's been here since he was a

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Speaker 1: part of the Masked Singer, which we do talk about

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Speaker 1: towards the end of the chat. It's magnific selves, So

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Speaker 1: I love this guy. It's a great conversation. We're going

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Speaker 1: to get right to it after these accidents. If you

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Speaker 1: had something to say to people who are listening who

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Speaker 1: they carry shame, what would you say to them about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a completely abstract and invented concept.

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Speaker 2: It leeches you of all joy. It reminds me of

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Speaker 2: the film Poltergeist. It knows what scares you. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: you feed it. You feed it every day by keeping

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Speaker 2: it secret. The only way to rid yourself of shame

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Speaker 2: is to expose it and to set it down. It

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Speaker 2: needs the bleach of sunlight, it needs oxygen to kill it.

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Speaker 1: I'm the mask Singer. When I stood next to you,

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Speaker 1: I think you I've got a photo of it. I

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Speaker 1: think you grabbed me and I'm like this, But when

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Speaker 1: you held me, I was like, you're fucking darn yes

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Speaker 1: straight away.

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Speaker 2: Well, well people don't know as well. That that night

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Speaker 2: you texted me and said, where are you I can

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Speaker 2: read the text or something like that, and I was

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Speaker 2: so petrified of getting fired because it is I mean,

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Speaker 2: that contract is very strict.

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Speaker 1: This is that I sent you a photo of me

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Speaker 1: on set and it says I tend to think you're here?

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Speaker 1: Who me quest your question? Yes, mate, you if you

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Speaker 1: were in LA you'd be asleep right now.

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Speaker 2: I'm an artist.

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Speaker 1: That is singer, songwriter and now author Darren Hayes. And

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Speaker 1: this is better than yesterday, making it better every episode

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Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen. I'm actually Ginsburg.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 1: So Darren Hayes. Darren Hayes is here. His new book

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Speaker 1: is called Unlovable. It's out right now. This is not

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Speaker 1: a conversation about Savage Garden. No, this is a conversation

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Speaker 1: which is easily one of the most raw and honest

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Speaker 1: conversations I've ever had on this podcast that I've had

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Speaker 1: a few. Dad and I speak about his journey through

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Speaker 1: trauma and the therapy he engaged in on the other

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Speaker 1: side of that. We speak about it in a way

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Speaker 1: that's at the same time both heartbreaking and hopeful. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about what it means to truly be successful while

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Speaker 1: carrying invisible wounds and how sometimes the very things that

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Speaker 1: can help us cope, like something like performing, can accidentally

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Speaker 1: end up becoming our careers. There's also this incredible moment

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Speaker 1: where Darren breaks down a concept of shame and how

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Speaker 1: shame operates in secrecy. But I'll let him explain that.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Enjoy this conversation with the magnificent, delightful and

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Speaker 1: really lovely smelling Darren Hayes.

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Speaker 2: Well, firstly, the book is.

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Speaker 1: I've avoided watching Boys Swallow's Universe because I'm like, that

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Speaker 1: is far too close to what my I remember. And

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Speaker 1: then I've avoided that, and I start reading book, your book,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, here it is anyway.

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Speaker 2: This is the seventies Brisbane.

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Speaker 1: I remember. These are the men I remember. These are

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Speaker 1: the smells of the pubs. This is the sound of it,

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Speaker 1: this is the feeling I know winds a road.

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Speaker 2: I fucking know that's true.

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Speaker 1: I know. Oh, I know that heat. I know all

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Speaker 1: of it. And it was like, well, there's no surprise.

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Speaker 1: It is so immersive because you have the ability to

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Speaker 1: put words together that other people don't. You don't accidentally

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Speaker 1: have their career have without that, But fucking help, I

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Speaker 1: have to read it in stages.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, I was actually shocked that there's

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Speaker 2: no I didn't know about this with books. I thought

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Speaker 2: that there would be some sort of reading from my book.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't know, you know, like contains themes

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Speaker 2: of this, that or the other. Because I feel like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I totally understand it's heavy, really heavy.

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Speaker 1: What was the heaviest thing for me, though, Darren, was

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Speaker 1: that that was just your family, right, And I remember

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Speaker 1: the stories that my mum worked in family medicine in

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Speaker 1: Darrah where the boys Fallows Universe thing took place, and

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Speaker 1: the story she came home with it was all over

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Speaker 1: and probably in every suburb.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean someone today was asking me about, you know,

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Speaker 2: do I have forgiveness or compassion for like the kids

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Speaker 2: that bullied me and stuff? And you know, weirdly, I

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Speaker 2: feel sort of numb about it all because I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: say I'm compassionate enough, but I'm educated enough to understand

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Speaker 2: that they were literally just a product of the environment.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is just socioeconomic this is education. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is you know. I saw some of the kids

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Speaker 2: who bullied me get beaten up by their parents in

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Speaker 2: the schoolyard. In fact, I received a flogging from one

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Speaker 2: of my school bullies five minutes after his dad beat

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Speaker 2: him up, probably because I witnessed it.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you know.

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Speaker 2: What I mean? It was just the violence in the

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Speaker 2: seventies and the eighties in Brisbane was so common and

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Speaker 2: the families. I imagined that of the kids that bullied

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Speaker 2: me were probably exactly like mine. Yeah, but in some

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Speaker 2: strange way because of the shame and the stigma and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Thought it was just me.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that when year kids, that's what, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what we have. You know. I was grateful to

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Speaker 1: know that your sister was there, that she was a

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Speaker 1: little older, yeah, and had a little more handle on

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Speaker 1: what we can do.

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Speaker 2: And well she had a handle on a hockey stick.

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Speaker 1: Well that's yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, she was very, very physical and just knew

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Speaker 2: how to drive a car before she had to drive

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Speaker 2: his license, and just knew the essential position of reverse. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: could reverse very fast out of her driveway like in Poltergeist. Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 1: Because I go to kids parties now, right, I go

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Speaker 1: to kids parties. Heaps with Wolfgang's five now and you

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Speaker 1: talk with the other parents and stuff like that, and Halloween's.

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Speaker 2: Huge around here, oh huge.

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Speaker 1: And the it happens. I've done it at the beach.

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Speaker 1: You lose your kids sometimes you know what I mean too,

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Speaker 1: but it happens. So there's like a couple of streets away,

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Speaker 1: it's like literally a thousand kids on the road, and

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Speaker 1: the three year old just got lost in some you know,

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Speaker 1: behind other people and they found him, you know, two

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Speaker 1: minutes later, three minutes later. He was just grabbing some

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Speaker 1: lollies out of somewhere. But he said, for that moment,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is fucking Peedo paradise. It's Petero Paradise.

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Speaker 1: And I was saying to him, like, mate, that is

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Speaker 1: a complete misconception. The true reality of it is that

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Speaker 1: in Australia, at least the vast fast, you know, the

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Speaker 1: the it is going to be someone you already know.

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Speaker 1: It's not a stranger. If anyone's going to abuse your kid,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be someone they already call uncle.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy that we don't talk about it? Know

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Speaker 2: that the assumption and the immediate go to is this

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Speaker 2: outward accusation is always the other other ring. It's so crazy,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? When it's always no, this is a shameful

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Speaker 2: family secret. Oh and we will hurt each other. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: before we ever heard Astranger.

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Speaker 1: It's something in the ninety percent of all childhood sexual abuse.

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Speaker 2: And it's terrifying because it's in context. It's so normal.

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Speaker 2: There's no way to see it outside of the bubble.

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Speaker 2: So even if that's happening to you, you like, I

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Speaker 2: give an example in the Book of Just It took

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Speaker 2: me until I was twenty five or twenty six to realize, oh,

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Speaker 2: the spankings I were actually no, I was abused, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I know people overuse those anecdotes, you know, they

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Speaker 2: talk about.

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Speaker 1: You if you're coming up in black bruises two days later,

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Speaker 1: that's not a spanking, that's a beating, yeah, like.

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Speaker 2: A week later, you know. And there were you know,

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Speaker 2: active plans to like hide that yeah yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 2: excuses for what that was for. And I'm like, oh shit,

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Speaker 2: I'm the kid in the song Luca. What could I

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Speaker 2: find this out? When I'm sitting in therapy, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and just going oh my god, and remembering, oh, my

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Speaker 2: dad didn't just hit my brother. He would say put

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Speaker 2: your fists up, let's fight Wow, man, that's how he

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Speaker 2: would discipline my brother. He would have a fist fight

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Speaker 2: with him. A grown man would have a fist fight

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Speaker 2: with a twelve year old and guess who would win.

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Speaker 1: Crazy when you go through this stuff, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: do know about you, but I recommend that people do it,

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Speaker 1: you know, even if it's not for published to do it,

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Speaker 1: because it's almost a systemic way to revisit and reframe

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Speaker 1: shit you otherwise might not have realized. Is making subconscious

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Speaker 1: choices for you through your life, Like try, you know,

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Speaker 1: as difficult as it might be to go in there

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Speaker 1: and just you know, it's just to at least write

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Speaker 1: it out. And then it's even if you never show anybody,

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Speaker 1: Like there's a ring blind folder over there that's full

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but now it's not in my head, you know.

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Speaker 1: Now it's over there. Now it's separate from me, and

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Speaker 1: who me now is not that stuff? That stuff is that?

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really good as well as like

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Speaker 1: when you're doing it, do you have an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: kind of go okay and I kind of put a

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Speaker 1: bit of this stuff to bed.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wish it were that easy. I love the

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Speaker 2: concept of even just laying down a burden, even if

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Speaker 2: it's anxiety. Anxiety is a huge one for me, and

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Speaker 2: I know that just list writing is an amazing way

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Speaker 2: to just take a task away from your subconscious brain.

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Speaker 2: Right if you think I'll get to it later, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, you're just torturing yourself. It's still there on

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Speaker 2: the hard drive, it's running a program, it's using up.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's refreshing, the app's refreshing in your brain.

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Speaker 2: You just write it down in a list and that's

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Speaker 2: peace for you. Right. If I were able to do

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Speaker 2: that easily, I would know it had to be memory

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Speaker 2: reprocessing EMDR. I didn't know how to do that for me.

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Speaker 2: So much of this stuff was unexpressed emotion, literal, cliche, freezing, dissociation.

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Speaker 2: So much of this stuff was I couldn't well. I

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Speaker 2: guess I didn't think I was allowed to have an

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Speaker 2: emotional reaction. I was always on threat detection constantly, just

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Speaker 2: thinking I'll deal with that later. So some of the

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Speaker 2: stuff I did I had to do during writing the book.

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Speaker 2: I had to stop writing the book because I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's probably really obvious to you, but for me, I

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Speaker 2: woke up one day I was just like why am

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Speaker 2: I so fucking oppressed? And people around me were like,

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Speaker 2: you're writing a book about your childhood and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I'm fine with that stuff. And I'm like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not. And when I saw an embr therapist, she realized.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one example is seeing my mother abductors as

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Speaker 2: a child and realizing I never cried in the moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and all I needed to do was cry. And people

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Speaker 2: think that if you talk about this, talking doesn't do anything.

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Speaker 2: Talk therapy does nothing. You have to let an emotion

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Speaker 2: sit in your body, let your physical nervous system process

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Speaker 2: a memory and an experience, and if that leaves you

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Speaker 2: shuddering and snotty and crying, that's what you have to do.

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Speaker 2: I didn't get to do that stuff. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 2: had no agency. I had no even just to say no.

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Speaker 2: And also a lot of the stuff. You know, my

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Speaker 2: mum is seventy nine and I adore her. If I

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Speaker 2: had written this book and my mother had passed, this

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Speaker 2: would be a much more horrific and graphic book. There

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Speaker 2: are things that I witnessed when I was pre verbal

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Speaker 2: that I didn't remember my sister and my mother had

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Speaker 2: to remind me, this is what was going on. Then,

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Speaker 2: this is why you studied as a child. This is

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Speaker 2: why in therapy when you talk about this stuff you

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Speaker 2: start to stutter. It's because what I was watching was

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Speaker 2: so unimaginably horrific to me. I had no language, but

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Speaker 2: I saw it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just a moment away from Darren. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after the break. Well, let's just talk about

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Speaker 1: the emder thing. As I mentioned earlier, if there's one

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Speaker 1: thing that I really got, it is again, it's this

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Speaker 1: inability to accept that this is it. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I deserve to feel better than I do today. This

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Speaker 1: is not working. I'm going to keep fucking trying. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to keep trying. And I didn't have the shrugging one,

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Speaker 1: but I know I've had enough therapists that so it's fine.

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Speaker 1: All right. They're great for other people. It's okay. They

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Speaker 1: just weren't great for me. So sometimes it takes two

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Speaker 1: or three goes until you can figure that part out.

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Speaker 1: What is it that kept you going, Man, I'm not

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Speaker 1: where I feel I see everybody else is what was

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Speaker 1: it that kept you trying looking for that thing that

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Speaker 1: would free you from this stuff?

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Speaker 2: Suicide Idal idiation that'll do it, yeap. Just wanting to

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Speaker 2: die and thankfully having what I call these sort of

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Speaker 2: glass half for cells that tend to when I get

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Speaker 2: to my lowest eb annoyingly start to multiply and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: fo god, I just want to die, but they start going, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but what if? So I know that there's that little

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Speaker 2: part of me that still wants to live. And seeing

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Speaker 2: a psychiatrist who said to me, and this is pretty grim,

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Speaker 2: but a psychiatrist that just said to me, I have

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Speaker 2: to be honest with you. I kind of feel like

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Speaker 2: we have tried everything. Wow, and there's probably only two

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Speaker 2: other things I would recommend, and don't be freaked out

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Speaker 2: by this. One of them might be electroshock therapy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that I think is the thing for

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Speaker 2: you is EMDR therapy. Now, he wanted me to go

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Speaker 2: away for three months and do it every day for

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Speaker 2: three months.

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Speaker 1: I had an impatient facility or something like this.

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Speaker 2: I never got that far because I was like, no

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Speaker 2: fucking way. He's like, oh, you could do this intense course,

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Speaker 2: and that's what I did. I did this intense course,

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Speaker 2: and believe me, there were days where I was just

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Speaker 2: like I did not want to do this. I did

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Speaker 2: not want to be here, like I what you know,

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Speaker 2: and you know, and I would have dread going to

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Speaker 2: the session because I was just like, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to remember the thing. I don't want to go through

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Speaker 2: the emotions again. I'm fine. And the therapist wasn't psychic.

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Speaker 2: She was just she had two eyes and she could

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Speaker 2: just see that I was not okay, and she would

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Speaker 2: just say, you know, she would develop what she called landmines.

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Speaker 2: You know, we mapped out my life and she would

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Speaker 2: just talk about moments in my life that were basically

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Speaker 2: what I referred to in the book as zip files.

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Speaker 2: And there were so many of them. I had to

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Speaker 2: reprocess them all yeah, and it was so exhausting, and

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Speaker 2: they could be as simple as a lot of them

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Speaker 2: were based around abandonment. So this fierce independence that I had,

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Speaker 2: which was this fear that nobody can save me because

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Speaker 2: I had no proof in my life that anyone was

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Speaker 2: ever going to come and save me. Right. I think

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Speaker 2: most people who have experienced trauma they react in that way,

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Speaker 2: which is this fierce independence, and they become high achievers,

301
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Speaker 2: ring bell, They become fiercely independent. They don't trust anybody.

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Speaker 1: If I keep working, you can't catch me exactly exactly?

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Speaker 2: What if I become What if I become pop star?

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Speaker 1: Have any idea how much control I have over my life?

305
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Speaker 2: Exactly? What if I become What if I win more

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Speaker 2: Arias than anyone's ever won before? And what if John

307
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,600
Speaker 2: Pulgotier knows me by name and whatever, you know, all

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Speaker 2: of this stuff. What if I just become just such

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Speaker 2: a good little boy, you know, such a high achiever,

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Speaker 2: and I'll never have to deal with this stuff. But

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Speaker 2: when we stop, it's always there. It's waiting for you.

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Speaker 1: See the other twenty three hours of the day that

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Speaker 1: the hard part, the on stage stuff or with the

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Speaker 1: gig or whatever it is, is the easy.

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Speaker 2: Amazing, it's the best part for us. It's like now

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Speaker 2: I have never there's no judgment because I wish that

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Speaker 2: I wasn't such a judgmental control freak. I didn't even

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Speaker 2: try an alcoholic beverage until I was twenty seven because

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Speaker 2: I thought I would turn into mister Hyde.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it.

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Speaker 2: Was Jeckyll and Hyde. I thought, oh, you put them

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Speaker 2: potion in haes Haese turns into the wife beater. Turns

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Speaker 2: out I'm just a lush on that guy that just says,

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Speaker 2: I love you so much, so much, who's my bird's friend?

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Speaker 2: But being on stage and having that validation is like

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Speaker 2: I imagine taking cocaine.

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Speaker 1: Having done both, I can tell you and sometimes described better, well, well,

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Speaker 1: one's more replicable and it's wholesome and is actually an

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Speaker 1: authentic source of happiness for both parties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, often, but it's external.

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Speaker 1: Yah, I have to talk about like, yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: to talk about like on the first laugh I got.

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Speaker 1: I think I was about eight on stage at a

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Speaker 1: school assembly thing. We were doing a skit and the

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Speaker 1: first laugh that was it. That was the first Oh,

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Speaker 1: that was the first bump was like, whoa, I want

337
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Speaker 1: more of this? Yeah, this is good. I like this part.

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Speaker 1: What do we need to do to do more? All

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Speaker 1: of this all the time.

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Speaker 2: So I have a question for you. Yeah, okay, So

341
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Speaker 2: when they laugh you and you get that bump and whatever,

342
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Speaker 2: is it exciting because if they laugh at well, I'll

343
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Speaker 2: call you little Austra or little Andrew's Little Andrew beager?

344
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Speaker 2: Is that because then they don't see little Andrew, they

345
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Speaker 2: see someone else.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Darren. At that point in time, it was all

347
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Speaker 1: about control. It was all about I get to decide

348
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Speaker 1: exactly what you think of me, because I've been completely

349
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Speaker 1: controlling this, all right. I get to say what happens next.

350
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Speaker 1: I know what's going to happen next. It is perfect,

351
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: all right. And people they say, oh, I never any

352
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: idea problems like yeah, because you only ever saw me

353
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Speaker 1: on live television for those twenty eighty hundred and twenty

354
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Speaker 1: seconds or whatever. It was in a moment of like

355
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Speaker 1: complete flow, clarity, pure.

356
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Speaker 2: Comedy, charm, a script hosting, all those things. They're so

357
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 2: perfect for that because it's so predictable, nothing, nothing can change.

358
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Speaker 2: It's a chaos.

359
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's very different now to come to a

360
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: different approach to it because my coping mechanism came my career,

361
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Speaker 1: but like anything, it never was enough, and eventually the

362
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 1: shitty feelings just permeated all of it and nothing I

363
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: could do would make it better. So I have a

364
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: very different approach to my work now. It's far more sustainable,

365
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 1: far more lovely. And now I get it, and I'm

366
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Speaker 1: sure you get this as well. It's all people want.

367
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Speaker 1: All I want is just to connect to another person,

368
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Speaker 1: all right, And I.

369
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Speaker 2: Got there a long time ago. All right, I fell

370
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Speaker 2: on my ass a lot earlier than you did. Right.

371
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Speaker 1: It wasn't until after I got sober Matt twenty ten

372
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Speaker 1: that I started. And there's only very recently that I

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Speaker 1: started to really think about it, Like, because there's no TV,

374
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Speaker 1: I'm like, what is it that really really enjoys? I

375
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: actually enjoy connecting through performance, whether it's this, whether it's

376
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: on stage, whether it's one one, whatever it is, I

377
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: enjoy connecting another person in that way, and I'm good

378
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: at it, and I give them something they otherwise can't get.

379
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Speaker 1: So there's a value. Add I could do that, I'll

380
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: be okay, it's pretty good.

381
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 2: Did you ever have the fantasy? I have the fantasy

382
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 2: of like running away from all of this and becoming

383
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Speaker 2: a therapist. Do you have that fantasy?

384
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, no, I.

385
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 2: See I fantasize about that because I think we're so

386
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: good at connecting. We love people, we love the exchange

387
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: of energy, and no, I realized I'd be terrible at

388
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: it because I once had a therapist say to me,

389
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: do you really think you could be mortal? Did I

390
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: ever tell you this? You know that? And that was like,

391
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 2: what do you mean? It's like come on, Darren, you've

392
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: been like this, You've been a prince since you were

393
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 2: twenty three twenty four. Do you really think you could

394
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: be mortal? It's going to walk around and just never

395
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: like be whatever. And I guess the answer is no.

396
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 1: And that's why I couldn't do it. You know, I

397
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, Like it doesn't make me an egomania

398
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: because some people may perhaps perhaps think it's not just

399
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: you like.

400
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: To paint with big colors on a big canvas.

401
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: With other people. Yeah, you know, And I would be

402
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: very aligned, very quickly if I didn't have an outlet

403
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: to do that, because I would be it would be

404
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: far too much for the people close to me to bear.

405
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: Man, it's so strange to me because I still have

406
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 2: that like I look, I still want to have a kid.

407
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: I still want to be a parent. I try to

408
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:33,239
Speaker 2: be very respectful about my ex partner simply because he

409
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: wasn't a public person. So even in the book, it's weird,

410
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: this whole there's a seventeen year chunk it's just missing

411
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 2: because you know, he wasn't a public person. So I

412
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: you know, I gave him that grace.

413
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: It's not a deposition there's enough in there. Yeah, you know,

414
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: saying this is what happened. It's like Jesus was born, Yadi, yadi, YadA,

415
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: something happened at the temple boom Hey seven on the

416
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: mountain came on a minute. It was like a good

417
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: but chunk of that's missing.

418
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 2: But I will tell you that I had always wanted

419
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: to be a father, and I just thought we would

420
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: have kids, and it just.

421
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

422
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: I always knew those conversations, you know, it's like you

423
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: should probably be on the same page on that one.

424
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: And I remember turning forty and being this is in

425
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 2: the book, but being forty and just crying and we're emparisseding.

426
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: He's like, what's wrong. I'm like, yeah, I just realized

427
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: that we never had kids. And our conversations had gone

428
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: to from like yeah maybe one day, maybe one day,

429
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: maybe one day too, being told you never really want

430
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: to have kids? Oh no, And I just kind of

431
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: accepted that. And it wasn't until I moved to Los Angeles.

432
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: One of my best mates had a baby, and so

433
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: I had that parental experience of like having caretaking her

434
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: from when she was like six weeks old and feeding

435
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: her pumped breast milk and all that sort of stuff.

436
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: But this is just leading to me saying I still

437
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: have that fantasy of just like maybe I will just

438
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 2: be a therapist and just adopt a kid, and that

439
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 2: would maybe I could do that. Until last night I'm

440
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 2: on stage and just banter and just doing some acoustic

441
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 2: songs and just feeling so at home on the stage,

442
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: and afterwards doing a book signing, and someone came up

443
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: and said, whatever happened to that comedy career? Like you

444
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 2: talked about, you know, you were doing a little bit

445
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 2: and I was fucking hilarious on stage and I just went,

446
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: were you not entertained? And they went, oh, yeah, actually

447
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: you were hilarious. I was like, thank you, and we're

448
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: moving on. Yeah, because I was just like, I, you know,

449
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 2: I am born to do this, like I love to

450
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: do this. So the idea of me like.

451
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, doing anything else, Yeah no, no, Yeah, I'm happy

452
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: to hear that fatherhood is still something that you think

453
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: about it totally.

454
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought that door had been closed. Yeah, it

455
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: definitely isn't.

456
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: There's a thing that happened, I mean happened when Georgia

457
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: whom you met upstairs. Yeah, she was ten when I

458
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: showed up and very rapidly this same person that we've

459
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: just described who likes being on stage and everything's about me,

460
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. In a blinker, and I became

461
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: anything that needs to happen to make sure every dream

462
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: you want to come true comes through is going to happen.

463
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: Like I was like, well, who's.

464
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: This guy?

465
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? And then but it's confronting because you start seeing

466
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: your kids say stuff that you recognize that your dad

467
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: used to do, what your mom used to do. You're like,

468
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: you never met my mum, she died before you were born.

469
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: Oh shit, you've copied it from me. And then you're like,

470
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: have this incredible opportunity to have a look and go

471
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: does that really need to be carried forward?

472
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: Probably not.

473
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: I can people let that go.

474
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: That's that's really beautiful, and.

475
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: It's a lot you need to actively want to do it.

476
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: But you get the chance to stop that hold and like,

477
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: we don't need to bring this forward anything here because

478
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: who knows how long you know it's I think the

479
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: effect is called rippling of a great grandfather's affectation may

480
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: be seen in the great granddaughter and they've never met,

481
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: they're eighty years apart, but it's been shown they've followed

482
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: and copied all the people around them, and now they

483
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: do this thing again. They look just like your great grandfather,

484
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: and so you have this opportunity to do it, which

485
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: is thankfully Maggie Dent told me this spurred on by

486
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: the fact that when you there's a pheromonal signal the

487
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: baby sends off, which you go, oh, baby, hold you

488
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: sniff it. It's the best. Oh, it's the best thing

489
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: you've ever known in your life, and it sets off

490
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: this explosion of new brain cell growth for the first time.

491
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: Only time happens after the edge of twenty five and

492
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: men is when the pheromonal signal or the baby hits

493
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: your brain and just all these new ain sels arrive

494
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: to help you handle this added thing. So you have

495
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: this ability and that out you're aware, like the plasticity

496
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: that your brain has has helped you come on this

497
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: journey to here. Well, you know, it's fucking weird.

498
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Yeah yeah, no, that's just their tears of joy.

499
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Yeah yeah, no, I get it, and.

500
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: I deeply, you know, I tell the other deeply deeply.

501
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: Today when you're sitting on my front port. I'm going

502
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: to fucking cry when he comes.

503
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: No, but I I you know, I deeply yearn for

504
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: that because I think there's a massive part of me

505
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: that wants to be a parent, you know, wants to

506
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: you know. I have so much love to give, and

507
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: I've tried to take this massive well of it and

508
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: always funnel it through romantic love. But that's just one

509
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: form of love, yeah, you know. And then the love

510
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: that I experience with an audience, and that's a genuine

511
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: thing for me. I don't care what other artists. A

512
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: lot of artists lie about this. I've actually met artists

513
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: who actively lie about this. It devastated me. I can't

514
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: name them. Wish I could. Such a faker. I met

515
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: this massive artist who, before they went on stage, came

516
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: to us. I just said, yeah, I fucking hate this,

517
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: hate my job, oh boy, but it pays a lot

518
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: of money, and here I go. And then they went

519
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: out there and I stood in the audience and I

520
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: saw their fans just crying and so emotional, and I thought,

521
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: you fraud, right, so beware. But I know I feel

522
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: that love with my audience, and especially because in a

523
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: man I was royally dumped and the people that stuck

524
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: around to me, me and everything to me. But again,

525
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: romantic love, the validation from an audience, that artistic fulfillment.

526
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: There's still a huge part of me that wants to

527
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: be parented and wants to parent and I thought that

528
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: that had been closed off forever. And I realized now that,

529
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: oh god, no, I can. I could do that if

530
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: I want. Yes, yeah, you know.

531
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: I did the psalms and by the time Wolf graduates

532
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: high school, I'm going to be sixty three.

533
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: Great.

534
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the reason why I had the hip surgery. Like,

535
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 1: I just remember how much effort it took to run

536
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: around after g as a teenager. You've got to be there, right,

537
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: you can't not be there. It's it's a really good

538
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: idea of like, oh this, I've got to stay vital.

539
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: This is the only time I think men ever feel

540
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 2: any kind of biological clock. Trust me, I'm feeling it.

541
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: I went to a barbecue recently my musical director, Trevor.

542
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: It's got two young daughters. Their next door neighbor, massive

543
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: Star Wars fan, love their kid. I'm having lightsaber fights

544
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: with him. And let's just say I was there with

545
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: a new significant other who you know, I could potentially

546
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: maybe think about having a kid with That's all I

547
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: say about that. And I was amazing at it and

548
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: looked at my you know, significant other, just looking at me, like,

549
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: got you make a great dad. And I was thinking,

550
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: I fucking would look at me and having lightsaber fights

551
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: with this eleven year old kid. And then I did

552
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: the math and when oh, by the time I am

553
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: doing lightsaber fights with a twelve year old, oh shit,

554
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: I'm sixty four, I won't be doing lightsaber.

555
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: Fights, plies and pump room. Let's make it happen exactly.

556
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: And that's and that's what better reason to stay vice

557
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: exactly fit to stay one hundred percent being there. You

558
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: mentioned pop stars, and you know, I think because it's

559
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: a part of his story. I remember when Michael Jackson

560
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: came to Brisbane in nineteen eighty seven, half of my

561
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: school went. I didn't. I remember it going from a

562
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: stadium to the indoor venue.

563
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: So Thriller had been the biggest album of the entire

564
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: in history and still is now, but biggest thing ever.

565
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: And he did not tour the world. They only wood

566
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: the United States. Then he took three years off, came

567
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: back with the album bad and Australia went nope, just nope.

568
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: I don't like the way he looks.

569
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 1: Didn't want to sell it.

570
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: He's playing in a stadium, Nope, not going to buy tickets.

571
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: It was just he looked too feminine. It was the

572
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: Queensland reaction to Michael Jackson was like, whoa.

573
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember it was queens because you were at

574
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: radio at that time in Arsenal in high school. But

575
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: it was very much yeah, Queens, but you were gay.

576
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: If you liked Michael Jackson, you couldn't be a guy.

577
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: The word they used exactly. No, it was Queensland, yeah,

578
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: other words on television. But you also saw him quite

579
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: close to the end, and.

580
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: I think I saw maybe the last performance or one

581
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: of the last performances he ever did.

582
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: What was it to see a artist like that on stage?

583
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: Did he give you an insight as to you know,

584
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen the Carne Dop but

585
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: the three parter on Netflix, but I'm like, there's a

586
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: lot of people whose money is dependent on this guy

587
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: getting in front of a Michael A camera. He should

588
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: not be in front of a camera.

589
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: Like, did you get seen the Kanye I saw the

590
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: Whitney one. I don't know if you've seen that. That

591
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: is devastating. We could talk about Brittany in the same well.

592
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is kind of what I'm talking about. Did

593
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: you get the sense that, oh, man, who's letting him?

594
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: Of course, this is just terrible.

595
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: Yes, And I know just because I know so many

596
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: people that worked with him, and in fact, I have

597
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: a couple of people that work with me. I have

598
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: an assistant that's still based in the UK that worked

599
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: with him. She was in his Duram department. Michael hated touring, Yeah,

600
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: he really did. After nineteen eighty seven. It just took

601
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: so much out of him because he gave everything and

602
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: he really didn't want to do it anymore. And in fact,

603
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: after the first leg of the Bad Tour where he

604
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: had broken records at Wembley Stadium, so forget our little

605
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: like Michael got downgraded in Australia, rest of the world.

606
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 2: You know, Michael only sold the second best selling album

607
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: of all time when he came back with Bad Broke,

608
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: touring records of all sort of kinds, but it exhausted him.

609
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 2: The only reason he did more dates was to buy

610
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: that ranch, which eventually just decimated him financially. He put

611
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: himself into dead, he bought the Sony catalog, He did

612
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: whatever he could do just to He was just so

613
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 2: in debt and he loved making records, but he really

614
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: didn't like touring anymore. And so when I saw him,

615
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: I remember just thinking, I will never be that. I

616
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: don't ever want to be that, and I won't ever

617
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: be that. I've never done anything for money. I mean

618
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: we talked off camera about the mask singer. I got

619
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: actually really pissed off recently. I think it was one

620
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: of the tabloids when something about me and just said

621
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: that I had done that because I had to for

622
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: my divorce.

623
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Fuck off.

624
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: Like, I'm sorry, but those Savage Garden royalty checks are

625
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: pretty fucking huge.

626
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: One of my favs. I'm not I'm on Twitter anymore

627
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: because it's a fucking trucktops trucktop toilert that hasn't seen

628
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: a pressure washer in a while.

629
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: I actually quit Twitter out there, but I literally deleted

630
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 2: a lot of followers and that's commercial for some people,

631
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: but I don't care.

632
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. You're right, Someone's like, mate, are you bored?

633
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: And you're you forgot multi millionaire bored multimillionaire.

634
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, yeah, like you are fucking hilarious,

635
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: and you know I don't. I don't give a shit

636
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: about that. I'm just like, you know what, I'm so

637
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: proud of how I succeeded because it came from nothing

638
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: and the idea of like, I've turned down so many

639
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: things because I have integrity, and I could be more wealthy,

640
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: and I could be more famous and all of those things,

641
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: but I just never want to be what I saw

642
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 2: them do to Michael, which was just if you saw

643
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: Baslemon's Elvis movie, I think it's a very similar thing.

644
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: I allegedly, I have to say this for legal reasons.

645
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: I believe Michael actually might have coded or certainly passed

646
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: out at the show that I saw, and.

647
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: Coded means like his heart stopped.

648
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: Possibly some like NACAN might have been used. Wow, he

649
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: was late to the show that I saw, and what

650
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: so you saw him after this? I saw him. He

651
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: did two nights at Madison Square Gardens just before September

652
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: eleven happened. He was very very late to one of

653
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 2: the shows. Now around that ear now it was either

654
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: then or around that era, there was there's pretty substantial

655
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: evidence that allegedly around that period he had like a

656
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: precursor to what eventually killed him. Man, You know, like

657
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: that's how little care the people in his orbit had.

658
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: He was just a money making machine, and he was

659
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: so in debt and so many people were. He was

660
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: leveraging so much of that catalog to just keep up

661
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: this lifestyle that he had. It was very, very sad.

662
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: Money cannot insulate you from poor mental health.

663
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: Noor addiction or anything.

664
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't doesn't care, doesn't care, it doesn't discriminate.

665
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: No, which is also actually why I've I've really I've

666
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: always lived really humbly. So even at the peak of

667
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: like like when those massive jects are coming in, always

668
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: lived really humbly. So never bought. The thing that kills

669
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: a lot of stars in the US is property tax.

670
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: You notice, So what happens Australians might know this concept.

671
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: But what happens is you might be able to afford

672
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 2: to buy a thirty three million dollar mansion, but every

673
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: year you have to pay two percent of the price

674
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 2: of that property. So think about that. You have to

675
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 2: be able to afford to just cut a check for

676
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 2: what thirty three thousand dollars every year, just or three

677
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars every year. From that, I'm bad at that. Yeah,

678
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: three hundred thousand dollars every year, just for the privilege

679
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: of owning that property. That's fine when you're Taylor Swift

680
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: and you're selling those kinds of records, but it's not

681
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: great estate planning. No, So for me, I've always kept

682
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: it super humble. I've had a number and my house

683
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: has always cost around about a number. Yeah, and that's

684
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: just it to have that.

685
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the number year and you've been doing the sum,

686
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: it's like, what's the number that when you can no

687
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: longer work, you'd like to have? That's the number. Yeah,

688
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: that's it having started with that number.

689
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: What people think of the house I live in on

690
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: the carrent I drive, I just care that I don't

691
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, I don't live in an industry that has

692
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: a pension. I have an industry that has royalties. So

693
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: I'm just like, Okay, this is no house I live in.

694
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: We need to take a quick break back in a

695
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: moment with Darren Hayes, you were probably i'd just say,

696
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: one of the last Australian artists to have that kind

697
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 1: of success in the business model as it existed then,

698
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: when there was actual units, yes, that actually got sold,

699
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: and the mechanical royalties were a real thing, not like

700
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: but of course we play artists royalties set of reskinned

701
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: lined wire wire.

702
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 2: It was us and Kylie actually she had her Fever

703
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: record and we were happening and and then it all

704
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: just went down the toilet.

705
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: What would if you were, you know, young Darren who

706
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: just seen this huge pop star on stage and going, Oh,

707
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: that's the job I want's that's what I can do.

708
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: What would you say to that kid? Now? What would

709
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: you say, like, I want to be on stage, you

710
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: want to be a musician. What was the pathway that

711
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: you would suggest to them?

712
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't change a thing because I definitely

713
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 2: believe in causality, and I believe in a certain weird

714
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: sense of destiny. I've felt it my entire life, when

715
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: I'm in the groove of a sort of a vague

716
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: path that's been carved out for me. I've had a

717
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: couple of near death experiences that I avoided, and I can't,

718
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: for the life of me explain how I knew, but

719
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: they were very intuitive. Avoiding them so I sort of

720
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: feel like this sort of kind of a little like

721
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: underground subway map in the universe that's kind of like,

722
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: here's a basic plan of how it's going to go.

723
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: I wouldn't change any of the things that I did.

724
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: The only thing I don't regret anything. I'm not someone

725
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 2: that believes in regret. Things always sit emotion, just like shame.

726
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: Is one thing about myself that I've become better at

727
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: is because of trauma. I have never really had a

728
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: great judge of other people's character. Yeah, so I trust

729
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: too easily.

730
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: Yep.

731
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there might have been a few few people

732
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have let into my orbit, but apart from that,

733
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't have changed anything.

734
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: If you had something to say to people who are

735
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: listening who they carry shame, what would you say to

736
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: them about that?

737
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 2: Well? I think it's a completely abstract and invented concept.

738
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: It leeches you of all joy. It reminds me of

739
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: the film Poltergeist. It knows what scares you, and you

740
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 2: feed it. You feed it every day by keeping it secret.

741
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: The only way to rid yourself of shame is to

742
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: expose it and to set it down. It's so useless

743
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: it's like worry. It's like anxiety. You can't change the future,

744
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: so worrying about a future outcome is a complete waste

745
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: of energy if you want to just think about it

746
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: in terms of scientific energy, Like you know, it's a

747
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: complete waste of energy, calories, calories, and shame. It only

748
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: exists in secrecy, and it needs secrecy. So it needs

749
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: the bleach of sunlight, it needs oxygen to kill it.

750
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: And you would be so surprised how many people are

751
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: sympathetic to honesty confession. But when I say confession, I

752
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: don't mean you've done anything wrong. I just mean confession

753
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: of your shame. When you confess something that's been a

754
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: heavy burden, other people's sympathy is so healing, and you

755
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: realize why was I carrying that around for so long.

756
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: I'll give you one short example. One of my emdrsians

757
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: I thought was one of the most traumatic things in

758
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 2: my life, and it was healed by crying for five minutes.

759
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: I was so afraid as a young person that because

760
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: I had to be strong in that moment. I was

761
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: so terrified. I didn't really know what was wrong, but

762
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: the solution was I just needed to cry. Yeah, So

763
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: when my nervous system cried, you rate the experience of

764
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: how traumatic it feels whatever. Once I cried, it was like,

765
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: huh was that it? Oh my god? And you know

766
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: we went through that memory, you know, four or five times,

767
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: but you know it went from like this isn't nine

768
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: to like, this is just something that happened to me.

769
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: I've done similar stuff. I've done the MDR in a

770
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: little outpatient clinic in Brunswick Street in the valley. Yeah,

771
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: in the nineties. Yeah, you never forget the smell of

772
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: a psychiatric outpatient in it, let me tell you. And

773
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: I was like, hung, I blog here. Actually I did, yeah,

774
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: And it was the first time someone waved the fingers

775
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: for me. But I also did another one. It's called

776
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: home therapy. It's a lot more physical thing and very

777
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: similarly like I'll be digging my thumbs into a swiftball,

778
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: if you know what I'm trying to say. But the

779
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: way the therapist explained it to me was that and

780
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: you can't just do this at home by yourself. You

781
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: need to be guided through it. But it was like,

782
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: it's the reaction of what he's having is it feels

783
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: like it's not finished. The thing that was trying to

784
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: do in the moment, and once you do that, it goes.

785
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: It's cool, We've done with that now.

786
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And another analogy, it's just like you would your

787
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: brain was trying to do a system update. Yeah, it

788
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: got interrupted. A memory needs to be stored away sequentially,

789
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: almost like a DNA strand, and once it's Once a

790
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: memory is stored away correctly, you can access it and

791
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: you can look. It's always going to be a shitty

792
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: thing that happened to you, but you can remember a

793
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: shitty thing that happened to you and not burst into tears.

794
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: It was ruining my life. I would like something would

795
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: trigger trigger. The definition of a trigger is this subconscious

796
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 2: connection to an unrelated event that you can't even remember.

797
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 2: So you might be somewhere in a smell or someone's

798
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: behavior or a comment might make you have a panic

799
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: attack or sweat or feel anxious or whatever, and you

800
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: don't know why. But for me it would elicit feelings

801
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: of abandonment, rage, anger, whatever. Man just opening those zip files,

802
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 2: rearranging that memory, restoring it the way it was supposed

803
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: to be stored in the first place. It feels a

804
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 2: little bit like having an empty email box. It's work.

805
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: It is worth it, but it is worth it. Yeah,

806
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: you get to live the rest.

807
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: And my man tells me, he says, good, I'll go

808
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: good news for your power. You get to live the

809
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: rest of your life not being that guy anymore. Like,

810
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: oh that's nice.

811
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah man, I could.

812
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: I was so fucking happy you came today. Thank you

813
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: for shifting things as long as I think the other day,

814
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I couldn't work.

815
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: Don't matter, I listen. I love you. I don't think

816
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 2: people who listen to the show know our history. But

817
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: I've always adored you and feel connected to you. And

818
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: now I can say this like so weird, like doing

819
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: masks singer and knowing you were there.

820
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 1: I skulls on my desk like that's it's so great.

821
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: I stole it from your set. It's so every day

822
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: to remind me I'm going to die.

823
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: And you know, I was in such a low place

824
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 2: in my life then. I was going through a divorce

825
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: and I was so sad. But like just smelling you

826
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: on set, I don't know what you wear when you

827
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: were when we're dressed up in fabulous comedy gyng so

828
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: good black, but I just it was just such a

829
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: lovely sensory experience because like I would just be having

830
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: this very isolated very You're in a freaking cloak in

831
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: the Witness Protection program, But like I would just come

832
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: out on set and stand next to you, and you

833
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: just give me a little wink or a little whatever.

834
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: You weren't officially allowed to let me know you knew

835
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 2: who I was or whatever, But she made me feel

836
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: so loved when I was. I adore you made I

837
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: needed that.

838
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: I do talk about this a bit, but I need

839
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: you to understand that you mentioned the subway thing.

840
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 2: Right.

841
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: I don't believe in ghosts. I lived with one, and

842
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't believe in them. I just think it's this

843
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: is just something that we haven't figured out how to

844
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: measure yet, all right, Similarly to in your book your

845
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: friend died that moment flock of rainbol Loricky fly past

846
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: in fucking Santa Monica. What the fuck are they doing that?

847
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 2: Right?

848
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: But there's stuff right. I'm the mask singer from season

849
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: one and you were one of them. If I had

850
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: known the person, because I made it was one person

851
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: I smelled, because only one man in the world will

852
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: stills dupe and it's Wendell Saylor, Like it's much if

853
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: I had met them and in a more than an

854
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: interview space, like i'd kind of known them a little bit,

855
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: what would happen is like they can't see anything, right,

856
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: So they walk out and I need to hold the

857
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: hands so they don't fall through to the stage because

858
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: it's a meter to something up fall to them, right,

859
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: And I reach out. There is a unicorn walking out

860
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: there in season. It happened, first time it happened. I

861
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: mean the big mouth. We're going to do the very

862
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: first walk out for the very first day, for the

863
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,439
Speaker 1: very first rehearsal. And there's a lot of dances behind

864
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: me for rehearsal. And I look behind me and there's

865
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: a wolf costume. I was like, okay. And I turn around, Okay,

866
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: you're ready, And I feel a hand just grab a

867
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: full fistful of my bum, like proper like fistful, and

868
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: my brain goes Rod Mills and I turn around and

869
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: there's this wolf. I was like, how the fuck the

870
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: fuck is that? So when the unicorn walks out, I

871
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: have to hold their hand. I reach out. I touched

872
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: their fingers through a glove. I touched their fingers Danny

873
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: eyes like these are something that happens. When I stood

874
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: next to you, I think you I've got a photo

875
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: of it. I think you grabbed me and I'm like this,

876
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: but when you held me, I was like, you're fucking down,

877
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: down down, yes, straight away.

878
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: Well people don't know as well. Let that night you

879
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: texted me shit and said where are you? I can

880
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: read the text or something like that, and I was

881
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: so petrified of getting fired because it is I mean,

882
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: and that contract is very strict.

883
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lose my job.

884
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: Man, I was going to lose my job either. And

885
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: I was just like, I didn't even answer you. I

886
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: was just like, I don't think I answered you. I

887
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: can't remember, but I was just like, you know what,

888
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: I there's whatever the speaker little trick is, I'm not

889
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: going to lose money.

890
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: It was pretty good.

891
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: Jack.

892
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: This is I've sent you a photo of me on set,

893
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: and I says, I tend to think you're here. Who

894
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: me quest your question? Yes, mate, you if you were

895
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: in LA you'd be asleep right now.

896
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: I'm an artist exactly. And at that point in my

897
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: life I used to stay up until three or four

898
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: in the morning. So there you it was the best.

899
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: I'm an artist. I'm an artist, you know. I seriously,

900
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 2: here's the thing. My deal on that show was so

901
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: good because do you know I said no so many

902
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 2: times and they tried to give me a really shit deal,

903
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 2: and I went, thank you so much for your interest.

904
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: I decline.

905
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: That's the best negotiation tactic there is.

906
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 2: I did not give a shit. And they ran back

907
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: and said, it appears it will be able to give

908
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: you a fee and I said, great, and I'm going

909
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: to need my assistant. They went, nobody has an assistant

910
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: on the show. And I went, thank you so much

911
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: for your interest. I decline, and they went, what's her name?

912
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: I just did not give a shit. I did not

913
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: want to do the show, and I thought I'm going

914
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 2: to do one episode because my fee was so good.

915
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: I thought, there's no way they're going to pay me

916
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: this every night. I stayed on all the way to

917
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: the fucking end, and I did not want.

918
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: To be away.

919
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: I was like, what, how is this happening? And why

920
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: are they giving me Freddie Mercury songs? I can't sing that.

921
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: I guess I can sing them. So it ended up

922
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 2: becoming this kind of spiritual.

923
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: It's a not uncommon experience.

924
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was kind of lovely. Get to experience it's

925
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: not kind of it was lovely.

926
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, they get to experience performance in a way that

927
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: otherwise never got the chance to do because of the

928
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: previously mentioned This is what we want from our performing.

929
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: You should deliver what we want otherwise we're not getting

930
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: our tickets worth You're the best you are too. That

931
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: was Darren Hayes. His new book is called Unlovable. I

932
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: put a link to it in the show notes. I've

933
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: known Darren for such a long time, like a really

934
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: long time. I think I was at the radio station

935
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: the very first day they came in for their very

936
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: first interview. Yeah, it was just so lovely to see

937
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: him so happy. It really really was. He has put

938
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: the work in to get there, and he puts the

939
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: work in to stay there. But it's nice to know

940
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: that there is a chance to live life free of

941
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: all kinds of horrible stuff that you had no choice in.

942
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 1: He's such a wonderful man. I love him to pieces,

943
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful he made the time to come.

944
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: He moved a lot of things around so we could

945
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: come over and do that so thanks buddy, Thank you

946
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: for listening to the show. There are story of club

947
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: tickets in the show notes. If you want to sit

948
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: and watch me and a bunch of other storytellers tell

949
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: a story. It's happening once a month at the comedy

950
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: Store the links of the show notes. You can also

951
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: get on the substack to stay in touch the stuff

952
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: there you won't find here. Thank you so much to

953
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: everyone help me make this show. Andy mart on audio postbacks.

954
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: I D did video post Abby Beno produced this episode,

955
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: and Monika Chapman as my executive function assistant. She helps

956
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: the lights stay on and the thing keep rolling. I'll

957
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: see him Monday.