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Speaker 1: Approche production.

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Speaker 2: When someone disappears, the people left behind are forced to

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Speaker 2: become detectives. They follow half trails to code fragments, search

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Speaker 2: for the meaning in the silence. Kim Marshall has been

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Speaker 2: doing that for more than thirty years. Her sister, Bronwan Winfield,

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Speaker 2: vanished from Lennox Head in nineteen ninety three. She was

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Speaker 2: a mother of two who seemed to simply disappear. But

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Speaker 2: Kim doesn't believe people just vanish, not without a trace,

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Speaker 2: not without reason. So she's been quietly doing what investigators

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Speaker 2: should have been doing long ago, tracking down unanswered calls,

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Speaker 2: revisiting old phone books, and piecing together the threads that

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Speaker 2: were never tied. Recently, she found one a mysterious phone

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Speaker 2: number and a three minute call made to Tasmania that

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Speaker 2: wasn't from her mum, her nan or from her. For Kim,

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Speaker 2: that single unanswered call might hold the key to what

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Speaker 2: happened to Bronwin. This is her story, a story of persistence, family,

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Speaker 2: and the hope that somewhere in the archives of the

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Speaker 2: past lies the truth of what happened to her sister.

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Speaker 2: Because Bronwin matters.

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Speaker 3: Well, Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Missing Meta Podcast.

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Speaker 3: This morning, I'm speaking to someone who I refer to

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Speaker 3: as a good friend. We've been connected through our missing

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Speaker 3: loved ones, and I'm very pleased to have Kim Marshall

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Speaker 3: joining me this morning. We're going to be talking about

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Speaker 3: her sister, Bronwin Winfield. Now, a lot of you probably

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Speaker 3: know about Bromwyin and have heard about Bromwin, but we're

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Speaker 3: going to do a deep dive into kim story today

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Speaker 3: about her sister and what Bromwin means to her and

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Speaker 3: her fight to find her. Reported missing by her estranged

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Speaker 3: husband John Winfield eleven days after she was last seen

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Speaker 3: on the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three, Bromwin has

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Speaker 3: been devastatingly missing for eleven eight hundred and forty eight days.

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Speaker 3: This year will mark thirty two years. So that's a

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Speaker 3: big number, Kim.

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Speaker 1: You I've never heard it like that. That's tracking in

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Speaker 1: a very big number.

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Speaker 3: Those numbers do trigger me as well when I'm saying them,

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Speaker 3: but I want people to understand it.

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Speaker 4: It's a long time.

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Speaker 3: Like you lose your keys for one hour, you're in

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Speaker 3: a panic trying to work out where your keys are.

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Speaker 3: So just to put it into some perspective. When you've

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Speaker 3: got a missing loved one who's missing eleven eight hundred

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Speaker 3: and forty eight days, that's that's a lot. So thank

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Speaker 3: you for coming on the Missing out Of podcast. I've

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Speaker 3: been asking you for a little while and you've finally

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Speaker 3: said to me, I'm coming, Zala, I'm going to come

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Speaker 3: and talk to you about my sister Bronnie.

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Speaker 5: Well, yes, it's good to be here with you, soo

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Speaker 5: thank you for having me. I'm going to say I

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Speaker 5: am glad I actually know you. And today's truth Tell

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Speaker 5: is a synchronizing moment because a person special to Bromwin

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Speaker 5: was recommended to contact you way back Sircer twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 5: and here we are today.

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Speaker 3: And we have spent many many hours on the phone

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Speaker 3: chatting and becoming friends and connecting in this space and

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Speaker 3: beyond that space as well. But I know we're both

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Speaker 3: here fighting for my mum and for your sister. So

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Speaker 3: let's jump in and let's have a chat about who

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Speaker 3: Bromin was and who she was to you. You've described

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Speaker 3: Bromwin as your big brave sister. We refer to her

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Speaker 3: as Bronnie and Braun. Can you tell us a story

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Speaker 3: or a moment that really captures her character and what

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Speaker 3: she meant to you.

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Speaker 5: To me, Bronwin has always been my big and brave sister,

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Speaker 5: affectionately referred to as Bronnie or Braun. I have a

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Speaker 5: distinct recollection that I still carry forward to today. I

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Speaker 5: always remember witnessing Bronnie starting again and recognize this as

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Speaker 5: her inner strength. Two huge qualities always stand out, one

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Speaker 5: being self respect and the other was always hopefulness. She

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Speaker 5: had this unwavering dream of creating a stable, loving home,

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Speaker 5: something she held on through every up and down that

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Speaker 5: came at her. There were times, yes, she was let down,

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Speaker 5: could have been the workplace and definitely in relationships, but

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Speaker 5: she never showed to me that those experience hardened her. Instead,

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Speaker 5: she carried herself with dignity, She picked herself up, and

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Speaker 5: she kept moving forward with that beautiful mix of hope

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Speaker 5: and resilience.

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Speaker 1: That defined her. I have to say that.

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Speaker 5: Over the years, I caught myself questioning whether I ever

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Speaker 5: did actually have a big, brave sister, and this questioning

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Speaker 5: became a reoccurring theme during the podcast produced about the disappearance.

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Speaker 5: Regardless of everything associated with Brody vanishing, my connection to

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Speaker 5: her and my memories.

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Speaker 1: Are stronger now than ever.

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Speaker 5: I see her as a woman prepared to take the

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Speaker 5: hard steps to be proactive, and she did capacity build

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Speaker 5: her way forward.

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Speaker 1: She was a trailblazer in nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 5: If you think about it, I see her as a

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Speaker 5: woman engaged with the system and reaching out for the

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Speaker 5: supports that were available when know too well today how

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Speaker 5: vital it is for a woman to reach out and

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Speaker 5: ask for help. So from her story, I've adopted three

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Speaker 5: core values from her character that I use during my

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Speaker 5: life journey. They are courage, brave, and joy. I recognize

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Speaker 5: how I have to turn out for others is very important.

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Speaker 5: Learning from my sister's plight, I have identified lessons to

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Speaker 5: guide me much better. They involve something like we've discussed

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Speaker 5: language boundaries, trust, curiosity, Patience is something that I can

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Speaker 5: learn from Bromwin's light, and I still hold out that

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Speaker 5: everyone can become more authentic. I've worked hard to own

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Speaker 5: my own truth, and what I do recognize is not

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Speaker 5: everybody can actually do that.

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Speaker 1: I can't rely.

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Speaker 5: I can't expect other people to do the same as

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Speaker 5: I perceive that she'd be done. This whole story, I

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Speaker 5: think is about trust, and kindness from others. It's not

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Speaker 5: going to ever be unconditional, unfortunately, and this was the

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Speaker 5: core failure of why Bronwin's not here alongside us today

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Speaker 5: right now.

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Speaker 3: And you said a word there, Joy, And I know

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Speaker 3: that the name Joy is actually very special and precious

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Speaker 3: to you.

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Speaker 4: It's Ronnie's middle name.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I wanted to ask you why it was important

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Speaker 3: that she passed her name on to her daughter Crystal. Yeah, traditions,

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Speaker 3: they seem to pop up everywhere in our family.

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Speaker 1: It does anyway, our family with women.

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Speaker 5: I also want to make mention that there's another special

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Speaker 5: woman out there, and another very special daughter out there

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Speaker 5: who also has a middle name of Joy. And that

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Speaker 5: also was a thread that gave me courage to actually

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Speaker 5: step forward. Not that I really always feel comfortable talking

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Speaker 5: about me and putting myself first and being honorable for

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Speaker 5: my mum, But here we go. And Mum Barbara was

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Speaker 5: given the middle name of Joyce as a dedication to

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Speaker 5: a young relative who passed away. My Nan, I'm aware,

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Speaker 5: gave it to her and she was very fond of it.

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Speaker 5: Mum and Nan often shared family stories as I grew up,

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Speaker 5: and this is just one of them. So Mom thought

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Speaker 5: her middle name being Joyce had become a bit dated,

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Speaker 5: so she decided to soften the name, and that's where

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Speaker 5: joy came from. Barbie passed her middle name to Bronnie,

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Speaker 5: and then more tradition happened. Ronnie then chose to give

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Speaker 5: her middle name to Crystal.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the kind of things that Bromwin loved doing.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned her style and her letters. What other side

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Speaker 3: of her do you remember? Well?

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Speaker 5: I have the memories that Bromin liked to cook and

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Speaker 5: was fond of using recipes from Nan read Nan Hay

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Speaker 5: and Mum.

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Speaker 1: I'd have double and triple check this.

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Speaker 5: Luckily, now I have a connection to be able to

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Speaker 5: hear things from the red side of the family, and

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Speaker 5: I think it's very warm to hear those connections. She

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Speaker 5: enjoyed cooking, which then led to her enjoying to entertain.

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Speaker 5: She definitely liked to host a party or two. She

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Speaker 5: didn't have any hobbies as such where she would actually

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Speaker 5: do craft intensively or anything like that. Hers was always

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Speaker 5: about social connection and family.

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Speaker 1: She did like to have nice hair if she could

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Speaker 1: afford to.

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Speaker 5: She liked to keep her clothing tailored and elegant, and

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Speaker 5: I can definitely say that Megan agrees that Bronnie loved

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Speaker 5: to entertain or be out in a social setting.

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Speaker 3: Now, you've told me a story about when you were

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Speaker 3: young and how it's sort of labeled from when as

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Speaker 3: your protec, can you tell us about the night from

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Speaker 3: which she coined the phrase the four Musketeers and how

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Speaker 3: Bromin made you feel safe growing up?

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Speaker 5: Yes, the tas Mane you visit When she was a teenager,

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Speaker 5: our home had a very long, wide hallway. It was

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Speaker 5: very dark at night. One night I woke hearing a

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Speaker 5: noise down the side driveway. I woke Mum, awoke Bronnie

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Speaker 5: and her girlfriend, and we all went off to investigate.

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Speaker 5: I have these distinct visions. We tiptoed all the way

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Speaker 5: to the back door down this long, dark hallway, single file,

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Speaker 5: holding onto each other. But at the helm was Bromwin

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Speaker 5: and she was holding the stick of the vacuum cleaner

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Speaker 5: like a baseball bat. We tiptoed all the way down.

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Speaker 5: Mum then removed herself from position too, went forward, opened

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Speaker 5: the back door and shouted out that whoever was there

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Speaker 5: to go away. Ronnie positioned herself with the baseball bat

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Speaker 5: in hand.

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Speaker 1: And leaped forward out onto the back path. We could

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Speaker 1: hear voices.

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Speaker 5: I actually have suspicions and pretty well know there were

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Speaker 5: people in our driveway. So we locked the door, came

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Speaker 5: back inside. And it might sound bizarre, but I've never

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Speaker 5: ever wanted to own a red vacuum cleaner.

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Speaker 1: So the Four Musketeers.

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Speaker 3: The Four Musketeers was created, and memories are a firmly

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Speaker 3: still there for you, which is kind of nice. I

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Speaker 3: think it's nice to hold onto those memories, and especially

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Speaker 3: when you feel you would have been probably afraid and worried,

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Speaker 3: and you know she brought her calmness to you by

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Speaker 3: being the brave one who stood out the front and

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Speaker 3: made sure she was going to keeping you all safe,

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Speaker 3: which is a nice, nice trait. You did mention before

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Speaker 3: that that time was when Bronni came to Tazzi for

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Speaker 3: a trip and your teenage years you described a distance

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Speaker 3: between you and Bromwyn. Can you share what that felt

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Speaker 3: like as a child and how do you reflect on

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Speaker 3: that now?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's a bit like a seesaw talking about

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Speaker 5: the Four Musketeers. That's where I reflect. I knew that

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Speaker 5: I felt safe as a young child. I knew that

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Speaker 5: I meted to Bromwyn, I knew that I felt special

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Speaker 5: because she always remembered my birthdays and she always wanted

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Speaker 5: me to visit her in Sydney. And I just loved

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Speaker 5: being a little sister because there were times where I

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Speaker 5: had to actually live as an only child, but there

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Speaker 5: were the incredible times where I actually did get to

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Speaker 5: be fully recognized as a sibling in person. This distance

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Speaker 5: was quite significant because I actually wished never had happened,

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Speaker 5: and it is a horrible thing to happen to any

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Speaker 5: child that's developing. So when you become a teenager, you

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Speaker 5: know you're still trying to work out how the world

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Speaker 5: is and where you fit in the world, so things

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Speaker 5: can be pretty black and white. I wasn't equipped to

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Speaker 5: relate to the responsibilities of being an adult and everything

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Speaker 5: that comes at you. And I believe this is where

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Speaker 5: Bromwyn was starting to be weighted down with the repeated

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Speaker 5: cycle of being let down, having things where her trust

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Speaker 5: was broken, having to ask for help, and then being

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Speaker 5: made to feel that she was fragile or she was weak.

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Speaker 1: I believe those things aren't fair.

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Speaker 3: And how old were you and Bromwyn at that time.

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Speaker 5: Well, I remember The last time that I actually saw

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Speaker 5: Bromwyn was when she had got married for the first

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Speaker 5: time and she had a lovely honeymoon that she was

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Speaker 5: blessed to be able to go on. And that's where

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Speaker 5: Mom and I after Crystal whilst she was on the honeymoon,

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Speaker 5: so I had my braces on, so I was actually

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Speaker 5: in grade seven. And that's where after that last visit

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Speaker 5: to Sydney, things went down quite rapidly in that marriage downhill.

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Speaker 5: I know why, I know what happened, but they're things

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Speaker 5: that I don't want to be pacific about today. But

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Speaker 5: it was once again a chapter that Bromwin had to

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Speaker 5: close and she had to rebuild her foundations again and

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Speaker 5: she had to start again on her own, and this

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Speaker 5: time she was actually doing it with Crystal that was

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Speaker 5: no longer a baby wrapped. She was actually now a toddler,

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Speaker 5: so you know, feet on the ground, busy mum, and

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Speaker 5: the impacts from the breakdown would have started to put

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Speaker 5: a lot of weight on her and this is where

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Speaker 5: Bromwin started to actually maybe struggle for the first time

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Speaker 5: with v able to manage everything that was on her plate.

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Speaker 5: And then shortly after this is when this critical chapter

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Speaker 5: started for her, which as has actually led to her plight.

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Speaker 3: So at that point, tell me about the time you

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Speaker 3: plan to go to Lennox Head in northern New South

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Speaker 3: Wales to visit Bromwin and her babies.

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Speaker 4: What do you remember about that time?

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Speaker 5: Well, there's been a lot of distance that had obviously happened.

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Speaker 5: I had actually switched off and suppressed that I even

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Speaker 5: had siblings. And then long story short, the opportunities a

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Speaker 5: rose for various reasons, and with the encouragement of my

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Speaker 5: mum and also Bromwin had actually started to indirectly disclose

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Speaker 5: what was actually happening. Also, my grandmother had interjected and

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Speaker 5: laid down the law and that also got Bromin things

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Speaker 5: to think about, and she had started to reconnect with Mum.

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Speaker 5: I was watching from the side, and then gradually I

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Speaker 5: decided that it was time for me to be humble

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Speaker 5: and reconnect with my sister. So we started these amazing

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Speaker 5: conversations and phone calls in the ninety two year and

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Speaker 5: I advocated that my mother really should be up there

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Speaker 5: helping her and supporting her and doing her wonderful duties

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Speaker 5: that I knew she could do so well.

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Speaker 1: To support my sister.

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Speaker 3: From your point of view, what were the main pressures

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Speaker 3: and challenges Roman was navigating in those months leading up

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Speaker 3: to May sixteen, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 4: In the day she disappeared, she.

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Speaker 5: Was struggling on all sorts of different levels. A lot

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Speaker 5: of people will know that she had had to go

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Speaker 5: through some tough decisions and I believe the connection and

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Speaker 5: the strengthening of the bonds and eyes with the women

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Speaker 5: in Tasmania gave her the courage to start advocating for herself,

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Speaker 5: and so things started to actually move quite quickly.

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Speaker 1: You've probably heard of the stages of change.

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Speaker 5: She had moved from pre contemplating to contemplating change and

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Speaker 5: actually then preparing planning that down to getting a job,

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Speaker 5: down to looking at where she could live, starting to

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Speaker 5: get multiple versions of legal advice, and in the end

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Speaker 5: she made a decision to vacate the family home with

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Speaker 5: the children.

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Speaker 4: And so that was in the March.

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Speaker 3: And by all accounts and memories and documents I guess

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Speaker 3: too from you know, police records and all sorts of information.

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Speaker 3: We know from your evidence that you actually spoke with

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Speaker 3: Bromwn on the evening of May. Now, looking back at

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Speaker 3: that call, what stands out to you. Obviously, I know

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Speaker 3: you were young and it's hard to sort of pull

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Speaker 3: yourself back thirty two years, But what do you remember

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Speaker 3: about that time?

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Speaker 4: Kim?

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Speaker 5: I remember keeping in mind that there was no mobile phones.

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Speaker 5: You had these breaks in communication being sent and received.

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Speaker 1: You had your letters as well.

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Speaker 5: But I'd come home from work thinking that we were

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Speaker 5: going to have amazing Friday night phone call and we

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Speaker 5: were going to actually finalize my travel arrangements because I

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Speaker 5: still hadn't booked an airline ticket. I had everything else booked, and.

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Speaker 4: What date were you supposed to fly up? Do you remember, well, this.

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Speaker 5: Is very very interesting because I did not have a

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Speaker 5: plane booking and you do not, especially back in the nineties,

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Speaker 5: delay getting a ticket out of Tasmania.

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Speaker 1: There were limited seats.

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Speaker 5: All my colleagues and all my friends that were going

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Speaker 5: on the work trip, they had all their tickets booked.

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Speaker 5: I had all my accommodation booked. I had all my

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Speaker 5: tickets and expenses and everything booked. But I did not

305
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Speaker 5: have a plane ticket.

306
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Speaker 4: And so why do you think you hadn't booked your ticket?

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Speaker 5: Because Bromwin and I were continually trying to work out

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Speaker 5: what her action of plan was in regards to departing

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Speaker 5: Lennox Head with me at the end or somewhere within

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Speaker 5: the month of May into early June.

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Speaker 3: So people who might not have heard about Bromwin's case before,

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Speaker 3: I think this is important.

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Speaker 4: So you mentioned the flat.

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Speaker 3: What we know is that Braun actually moved out of

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Speaker 3: the family home at Sandstone Crescent into a flat at

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Speaker 3: Lenox Head in the March. So we're not sure of

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent of a date, are we, Kim.

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Speaker 5: We're pretty confident because you know, when good old Telstra

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00:20:04,041 --> 00:20:07,321
Speaker 5: connects your phone we should say Telecom back in those days,

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Speaker 5: we actually have.

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Speaker 1: Phone records showing connection.

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Speaker 5: But we also have phone calls to women in the

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Speaker 5: family announcing that she has actually arrived and her phone

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Speaker 5: is working and here's my number.

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Speaker 3: So March to May, this is all when this is

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Speaker 3: all happening, and we have the phone call to you,

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Speaker 3: and Bron's confirmed that she's felt safe, She's got a

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Speaker 3: locksmith to come and let her into the Sandstone Crescent

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Speaker 3: house because the locks had been changed.

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Speaker 4: She moved back in on May fifteen.

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Speaker 3: Do you recall any changes in Bromwin's behavior, mood, relationships

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Speaker 3: with friends, partner, obviously friends that gave you calls for

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Speaker 3: concern or that you reflect on now differently.

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Speaker 5: It's a little bit challenging for me because I'm actually

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Speaker 5: educated formally in the community service sector. I'd like to

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Speaker 5: first answer that question is if I actually had a

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Speaker 5: support worker for domestic violence hat on if I may?

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Speaker 1: Is that?

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Speaker 3: Okay, you can, but remember this is about you and

340
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Speaker 3: your feelings, not you don't have to wear a hat.

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Speaker 3: On the Missing Matter podcast, this is about you, my friend.

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Speaker 5: So I get home from work stuck at Brolin's house

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Speaker 5: because the lights. She tells me that the lights are

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Speaker 5: on in Marriy and Deb's house next door in the kitchen,

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Speaker 5: and she's safe. And I was not prepared to hear

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Speaker 5: her living situation had changed. I was not aware that

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Speaker 5: during the last couple of days she had taken action moving.

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Speaker 1: Back into the property.

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Speaker 5: That Friday, she was very, very busy and the couple

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Speaker 5: of days proceeding, so she had actioned moving back into

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Speaker 5: the home based on the fact that she felt safe

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Speaker 5: that she had initiated legal proceedings in regards to divorce.

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Speaker 5: She even felt safe that she had initiated an appointment

354
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Speaker 5: for Monday to do her back in those days called

355
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Speaker 5: an apprehended violence order. She felt safe that that was

356
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Speaker 5: pending and that was going to happen.

357
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Speaker 1: What I found overwhelming.

358
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Speaker 5: Was that phone call included so much information about so

359
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Speaker 5: many different things that it was just this huge sudden

360
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 5: download of anything and everything that she was doing. So

361
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 5: it was like she was juggling all these balls in

362
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Speaker 5: the air. She was trying to wash the dishes, she

363
00:22:42,521 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 5: had put the girls to bed, she was doing everything

364
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Speaker 5: in that phone call with me. So I believe she

365
00:22:49,481 --> 00:22:55,521
Speaker 5: was heightened, and that's all that Bromwin was. Bromwin's behavior

366
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Speaker 5: had only changed in the fact that she was actioning.

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Speaker 3: Now, if you're comfortable to share with us, what, in

368
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Speaker 3: your opinion was her relationship like with her a strange husband,

369
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Speaker 3: with the home environment that she was trying to build

370
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Speaker 3: for her children. Did she share with you any concerns

371
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Speaker 3: that worried you at this time?

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Speaker 5: Taking aside what Brodwin had said, I have my own

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Speaker 5: first hand experience of actually hearing what was happening to

374
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Speaker 5: her when I was on the.

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Speaker 1: Phone, so I can speak directly to that.

376
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Speaker 5: I know that Bronwyn was being abused by not and

377
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Speaker 5: that's even before I connect information from other people that

378
00:23:45,521 --> 00:23:51,041
Speaker 5: have actually experienced the same phone calls. Then obviously all

379
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Speaker 5: the records, information, letters, diaries, everything that we actually can access.

380
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Speaker 1: So I have a first.

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Speaker 5: Hand experience of Bromwyn being abused at the flat and

382
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Speaker 5: that is ever ever been entered into evidence, along with

383
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Speaker 5: a multitude of other.

384
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Speaker 1: Pieces of information.

385
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Speaker 5: And obviously since those phone calls back in nineteen ninety

386
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Speaker 5: three with my sister and analyzing her behavior during some

387
00:24:21,761 --> 00:24:24,801
Speaker 5: of those phone calls in the flat, the phone calls

388
00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:28,401
Speaker 5: she would try and cut off and hide at the beginning,

389
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Speaker 5: and that's when a woman is still in pre contemplation

390
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Speaker 5: or contemplation stage. They're still trying to recognize what is

391
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Speaker 5: really happening to them. To the point where she hung

392
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Speaker 5: out all her dirty laundry with Mum and I and

393
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Speaker 5: did not hang up the phone.

394
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Speaker 3: I think that's an important stage of when this is

395
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Speaker 3: happening to somebody. So this is why I feel everyone's

396
00:24:52,441 --> 00:24:55,801
Speaker 3: very brave to share experiences and stories with others. But

397
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Speaker 3: I think that's important to note because her actions at

398
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Speaker 3: that time, and this is why I wanted to talk

399
00:25:02,281 --> 00:25:06,321
Speaker 3: about it, because it happens to so so many people

400
00:25:06,521 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: in our world. And if people are listening to this

401
00:25:09,961 --> 00:25:14,321
Speaker 3: and they can recognize and see similar actions and similar

402
00:25:14,481 --> 00:25:17,281
Speaker 3: traits as to what they might be experiencing with someone

403
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 3: that they know or that they're very close to, maybe

404
00:25:20,441 --> 00:25:24,241
Speaker 3: there's just room for a conversation there beyond what they're

405
00:25:24,281 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: seeing and what they're hearing.

406
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Speaker 4: Would you agree with that?

407
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Speaker 5: Totally agree because when a woman is recognizing that something's

408
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,561
Speaker 5: not right. Bromwin did this for me, and she showed

409
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,921
Speaker 5: me that she no longer had embarrassment and she no

410
00:25:38,961 --> 00:25:44,321
Speaker 5: longer carried shame. She was brave enough to step beyond

411
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,761
Speaker 5: those two little elements that society makes us feel too

412
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Speaker 5: frightened to push away from us.

413
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Speaker 1: And she did it with people that counted.

414
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Speaker 5: Whether it was us, women that she was close to

415
00:26:00,801 --> 00:26:03,401
Speaker 5: and she engaged with services.

416
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Speaker 3: Were there any observation of how the investigation began or

417
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,321
Speaker 3: how quickly things happened or they didn't.

418
00:26:11,761 --> 00:26:14,441
Speaker 5: As a twenty one year old, none of the adults

419
00:26:14,481 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 5: were doing anything. Everyone was just waiting. I was questioning

420
00:26:18,721 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 5: why at the police ringing? Where are the police? It

421
00:26:21,481 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 5: was like we had all these telephones hooked up, but

422
00:26:24,321 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 5: you had to wait for hours and days for the

423
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,561
Speaker 5: phone to ring. I actually saw no action, just the

424
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 5: occasional conversation, and then I'm horrified that there was no

425
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,241
Speaker 5: formalities followed other than one phone call to my mother

426
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Speaker 5: from the police. And I understand and have had clarified

427
00:26:46,041 --> 00:26:51,201
Speaker 5: that my mother has been overridden as next of king,

428
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Speaker 5: and I do not understand that was.

429
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Speaker 4: That before she passed away.

430
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Speaker 1: Most definitely, yeah, most definitely.

431
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 5: She was never given the opportunity to pass her right

432
00:27:07,321 --> 00:27:07,961
Speaker 5: as next of.

433
00:27:07,961 --> 00:27:10,521
Speaker 4: King, so who was regarded as next of kin.

434
00:27:11,001 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 5: Bromwin's brother Andrew, which I totally think was a very

435
00:27:14,681 --> 00:27:18,561
Speaker 5: good thing to happen, But it still does not excuse

436
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,241
Speaker 5: a consultation and a formality being followed.

437
00:27:22,961 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: You have said that Bromwin is a missing part of me.

438
00:27:25,481 --> 00:27:29,001
Speaker 3: Could you describe what that means in your daily life

439
00:27:29,241 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: and your sense of self?

440
00:27:31,321 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 5: Things have changed today, but if you look over just

441
00:27:35,921 --> 00:27:40,161
Speaker 5: about all the years that Bromwin has been missing, Brown

442
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,281
Speaker 5: has been a suppressed memory for me. It can also

443
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:51,521
Speaker 5: be described through psychological trauma as symptoms of phantom memories.

444
00:27:51,921 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: Did Bromwin actually really ever exist?

445
00:27:55,001 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 5: You carry a whole pile of questions that come from

446
00:27:59,961 --> 00:28:04,841
Speaker 5: your memory bank or your deep consciousness, and they will

447
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:10,001
Speaker 5: up at any moment and rear themselves at you.

448
00:28:10,561 --> 00:28:14,001
Speaker 1: Bromwin in reality is.

449
00:28:13,921 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 5: Not physically present, but she is definitely psychologically present. That

450
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,481
Speaker 5: is what I can describe for you as Bromwin is

451
00:28:25,521 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 5: a missing piece. It's like Bromwyn is a part of

452
00:28:29,681 --> 00:28:34,481
Speaker 5: me that I for many years actually had no choice

453
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,161
Speaker 5: to leave her behind or leave her hidden, because there's

454
00:28:39,201 --> 00:28:43,641
Speaker 5: been no help which can allow you to keep these

455
00:28:43,881 --> 00:28:49,281
Speaker 5: physically absent people from your family in the now. None

456
00:28:49,281 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 5: of us, we all don't know what to do with

457
00:28:52,081 --> 00:28:53,201
Speaker 5: a missing loved ones.

458
00:28:53,881 --> 00:28:54,841
Speaker 1: All we've got is.

459
00:28:55,001 --> 00:29:00,321
Speaker 5: Lost trust and we know that kindness hasn't been afforded

460
00:29:00,361 --> 00:29:03,321
Speaker 5: to us. So once again it comes back to all

461
00:29:03,401 --> 00:29:09,321
Speaker 5: these relationships that down everywhere, and I no longer have.

462
00:29:09,441 --> 00:29:12,721
Speaker 1: Bronwyn missing from my life in the present.

463
00:29:12,761 --> 00:29:16,521
Speaker 5: Which I am so relieved that she has been able

464
00:29:16,561 --> 00:29:20,881
Speaker 5: to be brought forward with me. So broman being a

465
00:29:20,881 --> 00:29:24,001
Speaker 5: missing piece means that I can go missing for hours,

466
00:29:24,201 --> 00:29:27,841
Speaker 5: I can go missing for days, I become absent from

467
00:29:28,081 --> 00:29:34,441
Speaker 5: my beautiful children, my family. So that's what Bronwyn actually

468
00:29:34,521 --> 00:29:40,081
Speaker 5: means in the past as a missing piece. But today,

469
00:29:40,361 --> 00:29:45,881
Speaker 5: yes she's missing, but she is my engine, She's my

470
00:29:46,841 --> 00:29:50,521
Speaker 5: fire It's messy and it's not going to go away,

471
00:29:50,761 --> 00:29:53,561
Speaker 5: but I'm going to do a damn fine job at

472
00:29:53,841 --> 00:29:54,881
Speaker 5: living day to day.

473
00:29:55,721 --> 00:29:59,961
Speaker 3: What has life been like for Bromwin's daughters and how

474
00:30:00,001 --> 00:30:04,961
Speaker 3: do you see the absence of bronwhen shaping their life

475
00:30:05,561 --> 00:30:06,721
Speaker 3: and their identities?

476
00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:12,001
Speaker 1: Well, I have to note caution.

477
00:30:12,561 --> 00:30:15,281
Speaker 5: I also want every single human being on the planet

478
00:30:15,281 --> 00:30:18,561
Speaker 5: to understand that I can only talk from my perspective.

479
00:30:19,441 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 5: I try to be careful with the footprints that I

480
00:30:22,321 --> 00:30:27,761
Speaker 5: make because I don't have both of these girls one

481
00:30:27,841 --> 00:30:32,601
Speaker 5: hundred percent unconditionally in my life. So all I can

482
00:30:32,641 --> 00:30:37,721
Speaker 5: do is honor my mum, honor my sister, and forget

483
00:30:37,761 --> 00:30:42,921
Speaker 5: about how much harm or how much damage I can cause.

484
00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:48,281
Speaker 5: I've spent years worrying about causing damage hurting other people,

485
00:30:48,841 --> 00:30:53,561
Speaker 5: but I'm not sorry anymore. I am going to shine

486
00:30:54,041 --> 00:30:59,881
Speaker 5: whatever I can about how Bromwin would have wanted to

487
00:31:00,001 --> 00:31:05,281
Speaker 5: guide and provide shaping for her girls, and hopefully they

488
00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:10,401
Speaker 5: will bump into this information. They will use the information

489
00:31:10,721 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 5: how best they see fit. But I will always be

490
00:31:13,641 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 5: here if the pieces are falling apart, and I will

491
00:31:18,561 --> 00:31:24,601
Speaker 5: unconditionally make myself available to listen and be around.

492
00:31:25,201 --> 00:31:25,641
Speaker 2: And you know what.

493
00:31:25,681 --> 00:31:27,401
Speaker 4: We don't need to talk too much about it.

494
00:31:27,561 --> 00:31:30,761
Speaker 3: I know after many conversations with you, your heart is

495
00:31:30,761 --> 00:31:34,121
Speaker 3: in the right place and you care so much for

496
00:31:34,241 --> 00:31:37,081
Speaker 3: all those people in your space, right they're all there,

497
00:31:37,321 --> 00:31:40,121
Speaker 3: But I think it's hard. Like I'm obviously a daughter

498
00:31:40,361 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: with a missing mum. I was young too when my

499
00:31:42,561 --> 00:31:44,561
Speaker 3: mum went missing, not as young as the girls were,

500
00:31:44,601 --> 00:31:47,001
Speaker 3: but there is that impact that it does have on

501
00:31:47,081 --> 00:31:49,841
Speaker 3: you as you grow older. And I think, Kim, you're

502
00:31:49,881 --> 00:31:52,921
Speaker 3: just them knowing and hearing if they do hear this,

503
00:31:53,121 --> 00:31:55,881
Speaker 3: that you are there for them and you care for

504
00:31:55,921 --> 00:31:57,681
Speaker 3: them and the door is always open.

505
00:31:57,761 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 4: I think that's all you can offer.

506
00:32:00,281 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: You've described moving from hurt, rejection, and emotional suppress to

507
00:32:05,801 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: a place of resolve and present living. I think this

508
00:32:08,761 --> 00:32:11,801
Speaker 3: is a really important topic for anybody living in this space,

509
00:32:12,281 --> 00:32:14,481
Speaker 3: and it's always good to get a perspective from somebody

510
00:32:14,481 --> 00:32:18,961
Speaker 3: else who has walked that walk. How does that ambiguity

511
00:32:19,001 --> 00:32:22,161
Speaker 3: of having a missing person show up for you? Guys, like,

512
00:32:22,241 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: how do your kids see it and how do they

513
00:32:24,201 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: look after their mom? How do your process things In

514
00:32:28,041 --> 00:32:29,001
Speaker 3: the past.

515
00:32:29,081 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 5: They really had no idea what was going on, moving

516
00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:37,721
Speaker 5: through the years of therapy and counseling and bringing light

517
00:32:37,801 --> 00:32:43,641
Speaker 5: to Broni's story. They have actually seen me have emotions

518
00:32:44,881 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 5: and at times.

519
00:32:47,881 --> 00:32:50,041
Speaker 1: Say it's too much for them to see.

520
00:32:50,881 --> 00:32:55,201
Speaker 5: They will also see that their mum has disappeared. They

521
00:32:55,241 --> 00:32:58,761
Speaker 5: see that their mum is on the phone for way

522
00:32:58,761 --> 00:33:02,801
Speaker 5: too long and their mum becomes unavailable, and if you

523
00:33:02,841 --> 00:33:05,561
Speaker 5: really want to be hardcore with it, they see their

524
00:33:05,601 --> 00:33:10,841
Speaker 5: mom disassociated. And so there are times where if you

525
00:33:10,921 --> 00:33:16,041
Speaker 5: do not take responsibility for your role as mother in

526
00:33:16,081 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 5: the family, then you are going to re expose the

527
00:33:20,001 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 5: next generation and it becomes no longer ambiguous loss. It

528
00:33:24,761 --> 00:33:29,601
Speaker 5: becomes intergenerational trauma. So whatever I do, I have to

529
00:33:29,641 --> 00:33:33,361
Speaker 5: do it carefully. And I have had to remove myself

530
00:33:33,401 --> 00:33:39,081
Speaker 5: from the family home during periods of time because if

531
00:33:39,121 --> 00:33:44,601
Speaker 5: I'm so overwhelmed or needing to focus on Bromwin's story,

532
00:33:45,521 --> 00:33:48,241
Speaker 5: then I have to be mindful that I do not

533
00:33:48,921 --> 00:33:50,761
Speaker 5: bring that into the family home.

534
00:33:51,281 --> 00:33:52,801
Speaker 4: It has been thirty two years.

535
00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:56,161
Speaker 3: How have you found ways to keep Bromwin present in

536
00:33:56,201 --> 00:33:59,721
Speaker 3: your life and what helps you in keeping her connection

537
00:34:00,041 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: alive even though she's still missing.

538
00:34:03,841 --> 00:34:08,281
Speaker 5: I spend hours upon ours talking with Crystal about all

539
00:34:08,561 --> 00:34:12,681
Speaker 5: the childhood memories that she has, all the memories I have,

540
00:34:13,001 --> 00:34:16,601
Speaker 5: all the memories that Megan have, every single memory I

541
00:34:16,641 --> 00:34:22,841
Speaker 5: can get from Bromwin's girlfriend's, Bromwin's acquaintances, and I will.

542
00:34:22,601 --> 00:34:26,881
Speaker 1: Continually keep on being a repeat.

543
00:34:26,521 --> 00:34:31,241
Speaker 5: Offender and share every piece of information about Bromwin that

544
00:34:31,321 --> 00:34:36,161
Speaker 5: I can that will keep her memory alive even when

545
00:34:36,161 --> 00:34:39,721
Speaker 5: my own children or close members in the family go.

546
00:34:40,321 --> 00:34:41,641
Speaker 1: I've heard that before.

547
00:34:41,961 --> 00:34:45,401
Speaker 5: Because probably going back to Eban, your previous question is

548
00:34:46,041 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 5: the immediate family can give me empathy, but they'll never

549
00:34:50,601 --> 00:34:55,841
Speaker 5: ever be able to actually understand because they haven't been

550
00:34:55,961 --> 00:35:00,521
Speaker 5: sitting in the movie theater with me for all these decades,

551
00:35:01,041 --> 00:35:02,881
Speaker 5: reliving all these events.

552
00:35:03,521 --> 00:35:07,161
Speaker 3: What do you wish people would understand more about ambiguous

553
00:35:07,201 --> 00:35:10,881
Speaker 3: loss when it comes to a missing loved one versus

554
00:35:11,761 --> 00:35:15,241
Speaker 3: a loved one who has died with a body found.

555
00:35:16,241 --> 00:35:16,681
Speaker 1: Wow.

556
00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:22,281
Speaker 5: Well, first thing is that ambiguous loss is a condition.

557
00:35:22,961 --> 00:35:26,921
Speaker 5: It is an invisible thing that is going on for

558
00:35:27,281 --> 00:35:28,761
Speaker 5: people that are walking.

559
00:35:28,481 --> 00:35:30,081
Speaker 1: Around in their bodies.

560
00:35:30,521 --> 00:35:33,801
Speaker 5: But there is so much more going on beneath the

561
00:35:33,801 --> 00:35:39,761
Speaker 5: iceberg than what people can actually see. And what is

562
00:35:39,921 --> 00:35:44,241
Speaker 5: different is that there's this closure that they say can happen,

563
00:35:44,961 --> 00:35:50,841
Speaker 5: I actually can't confirm what it's like to have a

564
00:35:50,881 --> 00:35:54,401
Speaker 5: person go missing, but then the body is found. All

565
00:35:54,441 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 5: I could probably connect to would be perhaps there's some

566
00:35:58,601 --> 00:36:03,521
Speaker 5: more threads that are connected. It must be absolutely devastating.

567
00:36:04,041 --> 00:36:06,561
Speaker 5: I can't even give it war words. But when a

568
00:36:06,601 --> 00:36:11,521
Speaker 5: person is missing and there is no reconciling of what

569
00:36:11,721 --> 00:36:16,841
Speaker 5: happened to them, people like us, Sally, we're on repeat

570
00:36:16,921 --> 00:36:20,521
Speaker 5: dialogue that you can't actually see. So we need help

571
00:36:21,321 --> 00:36:26,721
Speaker 5: to be kept grounded. We need support in having safe

572
00:36:26,761 --> 00:36:31,561
Speaker 5: places and opportunities within the system that we can really

573
00:36:31,721 --> 00:36:38,281
Speaker 5: be heard authentically without the language getting complicated. We must

574
00:36:38,321 --> 00:36:44,761
Speaker 5: have investigations that have had all bias removed, the highest

575
00:36:44,841 --> 00:36:51,321
Speaker 5: of ethics practiced, because so many pieces of information are

576
00:36:51,401 --> 00:36:57,161
Speaker 5: missing from Bromwin's case that it is just hard to

577
00:36:57,241 --> 00:37:02,441
Speaker 5: believe that it happens when the most significant crime could

578
00:37:02,441 --> 00:37:03,881
Speaker 5: have possibly happened.

579
00:37:04,481 --> 00:37:06,441
Speaker 1: Just is mind blowing.

580
00:37:06,801 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 5: Someone can be put in jail for a very very

581
00:37:09,481 --> 00:37:13,041
Speaker 5: long time when they commit a crime, and it's talked

582
00:37:13,081 --> 00:37:17,921
Speaker 5: about everywhere, it's published, But when a person is missing,

583
00:37:18,681 --> 00:37:21,681
Speaker 5: you can't get to the end of the train line.

584
00:37:21,961 --> 00:37:24,081
Speaker 3: And you know, if I can share, if you don't

585
00:37:24,121 --> 00:37:28,721
Speaker 3: mind me sharing, You know, my dad passed away last Thursday,

586
00:37:29,601 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: and I've spent the last twelve months looking after him

587
00:37:34,041 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: and caring for him, and seeing him go through palliative care,

588
00:37:37,881 --> 00:37:41,081
Speaker 3: and watching him fade away and then pass away, and

589
00:37:41,121 --> 00:37:45,041
Speaker 3: then walking into his room literally forty minutes after he's

590
00:37:45,081 --> 00:37:49,561
Speaker 3: passed away, the person that I saw only hours before

591
00:37:49,721 --> 00:37:54,201
Speaker 3: looked so different to how he looked once he had gone,

592
00:37:54,721 --> 00:37:57,521
Speaker 3: and I was completely shocked to see him, and I

593
00:37:57,561 --> 00:38:00,121
Speaker 3: just said, odd, Dad, like I just couldn't actually fathom

594
00:38:00,281 --> 00:38:03,281
Speaker 3: that he had color in his face hours before, and

595
00:38:03,321 --> 00:38:05,641
Speaker 3: then nothing when.

596
00:38:05,481 --> 00:38:06,281
Speaker 4: I came back in.

597
00:38:06,561 --> 00:38:10,801
Speaker 3: And as hard as that was and as sad as

598
00:38:11,081 --> 00:38:14,241
Speaker 3: that was for me, the other thing that I had

599
00:38:14,241 --> 00:38:17,161
Speaker 3: to deal with at that moment was that I actually

600
00:38:17,201 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 3: never got to do that for my mum. I never

601
00:38:19,561 --> 00:38:21,681
Speaker 3: got to see her. I never got to hold her

602
00:38:21,721 --> 00:38:25,481
Speaker 3: hand when she was dying. And even worse, I don't

603
00:38:25,521 --> 00:38:28,241
Speaker 3: know how she died, or where she died, or where

604
00:38:28,241 --> 00:38:31,161
Speaker 3: she is now. And I came to the realization, Kim,

605
00:38:31,281 --> 00:38:34,921
Speaker 3: I actually have not grieved her. I have not processed

606
00:38:34,921 --> 00:38:38,561
Speaker 3: that she has passed away. I was thinking about that

607
00:38:38,641 --> 00:38:42,161
Speaker 3: earlier yesterday, as I'm going through all the processes with

608
00:38:42,281 --> 00:38:45,361
Speaker 3: Dad now and getting ready for him to be cremated

609
00:38:45,401 --> 00:38:48,441
Speaker 3: and you know, scatter his ashes and you know everything

610
00:38:48,481 --> 00:38:52,281
Speaker 3: that must go through that process. It really alarmed me

611
00:38:52,681 --> 00:38:56,321
Speaker 3: in myself how much I have not processed those things.

612
00:38:56,321 --> 00:38:59,801
Speaker 3: And I think that's where the ambiguous chat comes from.

613
00:38:59,841 --> 00:39:03,321
Speaker 4: It's an underlying current.

614
00:39:03,281 --> 00:39:06,921
Speaker 3: Where you have have this side of the fence and

615
00:39:06,961 --> 00:39:09,241
Speaker 3: then you have this side of the fence, and they

616
00:39:09,281 --> 00:39:14,681
Speaker 3: are so different to manage. So I hope sharing that

617
00:39:15,241 --> 00:39:19,001
Speaker 3: helps other people understand a little bit too, about having

618
00:39:19,001 --> 00:39:22,201
Speaker 3: a person there when they pass away and being told

619
00:39:22,201 --> 00:39:24,081
Speaker 3: by a coroner on a piece of paper that your

620
00:39:24,121 --> 00:39:26,361
Speaker 3: loved one is to cease, but you don't have that.

621
00:39:26,361 --> 00:39:29,561
Speaker 3: That's actually very difficult to process and manage. And I

622
00:39:29,601 --> 00:39:32,361
Speaker 3: feel for every single person who has to do that.

623
00:39:33,201 --> 00:39:39,241
Speaker 5: I concur and I'm learning hearing your words and your

624
00:39:39,321 --> 00:39:42,721
Speaker 5: experiences that I'm very grateful that you are sharing with

625
00:39:42,761 --> 00:39:46,721
Speaker 5: me today is that you have skipped the stages of

626
00:39:46,761 --> 00:39:47,961
Speaker 5: grief where.

627
00:39:47,841 --> 00:39:53,841
Speaker 3: Starck Browin's case saw an in quest take place in

628
00:39:53,881 --> 00:39:57,601
Speaker 3: two thousand and two, this is nine years after she

629
00:39:57,721 --> 00:40:02,001
Speaker 3: vanished without a trace. A reward is then offered in

630
00:40:02,281 --> 00:40:06,961
Speaker 3: twenty ten for one hundred thousand dollars seventeen years later.

631
00:40:07,481 --> 00:40:09,041
Speaker 4: These are very long.

632
00:40:08,881 --> 00:40:13,001
Speaker 3: Delays, but there have been searches and case reviews and

633
00:40:13,081 --> 00:40:18,521
Speaker 3: a podcast. What's your opinion with regards to what has

634
00:40:18,601 --> 00:40:22,841
Speaker 3: been the most helpful engagement with authorities and media and

635
00:40:22,881 --> 00:40:24,721
Speaker 3: what has been the most frustrating.

636
00:40:26,121 --> 00:40:30,321
Speaker 5: Until recently, there hasn't really been anything that's been helpful,

637
00:40:30,521 --> 00:40:35,321
Speaker 5: and that's actually not been sarcastic when I deep dive

638
00:40:35,441 --> 00:40:39,241
Speaker 5: into my recollections, there really hasn't been anything that's been

639
00:40:39,281 --> 00:40:43,281
Speaker 5: helpful from my perspective or from my understanding.

640
00:40:43,401 --> 00:40:45,241
Speaker 1: So there just hasn't been anything.

641
00:40:46,121 --> 00:40:50,161
Speaker 3: You've described feeling not confident in asking to speak with

642
00:40:50,281 --> 00:40:55,041
Speaker 3: authorities and that small details recorded in error build to

643
00:40:55,161 --> 00:40:58,641
Speaker 3: wrong lines of investigation. I think that's a perfect statement.

644
00:40:59,561 --> 00:41:03,001
Speaker 3: Could you share an example of a detail that you

645
00:41:03,281 --> 00:41:07,761
Speaker 3: found was recorded incorrect and what were the consequences of this.

646
00:41:08,241 --> 00:41:13,561
Speaker 5: One example is my surname recorded was not my surname.

647
00:41:14,521 --> 00:41:19,961
Speaker 5: That then compounded the understanding and the recording that my

648
00:41:20,521 --> 00:41:26,801
Speaker 5: relationship to Bromwin was not blood related, so I was

649
00:41:26,881 --> 00:41:30,241
Speaker 5: not recognized as any blood related sister.

650
00:41:30,881 --> 00:41:35,041
Speaker 1: I was referred to as a stepsister. I then feel

651
00:41:35,081 --> 00:41:35,801
Speaker 1: that that has.

652
00:41:35,721 --> 00:41:42,241
Speaker 5: Created confusions in running sheets that were initially recorded, because

653
00:41:42,441 --> 00:41:50,121
Speaker 5: I see that phone calls have been confused. I feel

654
00:41:50,321 --> 00:41:57,561
Speaker 5: that different relationships have been confused, and overall information has

655
00:41:57,601 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 5: not been kept in the first hand. It has been

656
00:42:01,521 --> 00:42:08,441
Speaker 5: intertwined and cross referenced, so information has become very confused.

657
00:42:08,561 --> 00:42:09,841
Speaker 1: But I wasn't.

658
00:42:09,641 --> 00:42:16,681
Speaker 5: Actually entitled to any support as a family victim because

659
00:42:16,681 --> 00:42:20,361
Speaker 5: I just simply wasn't eligible as a family victim. And

660
00:42:20,401 --> 00:42:24,561
Speaker 5: so I've gone all these decades not receiving the right

661
00:42:24,641 --> 00:42:28,361
Speaker 5: information and having to make my own way to deal

662
00:42:28,441 --> 00:42:30,521
Speaker 5: with my sister disappearing.

663
00:42:31,361 --> 00:42:33,881
Speaker 1: And compounded on that.

664
00:42:34,681 --> 00:42:39,361
Speaker 5: Is that I feel evidence from me may have been

665
00:42:39,481 --> 00:42:43,441
Speaker 5: taken more seriously and may have been entered into the

666
00:42:43,481 --> 00:42:49,081
Speaker 5: evidence of brief. So I find that small things can

667
00:42:49,121 --> 00:42:52,881
Speaker 5: have critical impacts down the line.

668
00:42:53,721 --> 00:42:58,241
Speaker 3: And once things go into brief are noted as a

669
00:42:58,321 --> 00:43:01,001
Speaker 3: finding from a coroner, for example, you can't go and

670
00:43:01,081 --> 00:43:03,361
Speaker 3: change them. You have to go through the whole process

671
00:43:03,401 --> 00:43:08,361
Speaker 3: again to add and tract things. And I know in

672
00:43:08,401 --> 00:43:11,401
Speaker 3: my case there's things that didn't get put into evidence.

673
00:43:11,961 --> 00:43:13,801
Speaker 3: For mum's case, that's.

674
00:43:13,681 --> 00:43:19,761
Speaker 5: Right, And who would know if that brief of evidence,

675
00:43:20,521 --> 00:43:24,281
Speaker 5: with all its missing information, They're not even making a

676
00:43:24,361 --> 00:43:28,281
Speaker 5: decision based on what I would call reliable fact.

677
00:43:29,041 --> 00:43:32,201
Speaker 3: I agree, it's not all there right. If they're leaving

678
00:43:32,201 --> 00:43:35,081
Speaker 3: things out, they're not getting the full picture. And no,

679
00:43:35,321 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: that's a big problem. I have a lot of beef

680
00:43:38,001 --> 00:43:40,921
Speaker 3: with this actually with mum's case, because the head guy

681
00:43:41,241 --> 00:43:43,521
Speaker 3: at one time who was for the New South Wales

682
00:43:43,601 --> 00:43:46,881
Speaker 3: Missing Person's Unit, who has written to the AFP saying

683
00:43:46,921 --> 00:43:51,001
Speaker 3: that I believe Sally is seeking a scapegoat for this situation.

684
00:43:51,681 --> 00:43:55,641
Speaker 3: Her mother was cited as recently as last month, so

685
00:43:55,721 --> 00:43:58,761
Speaker 3: this is about ten years after she's gone missing, and

686
00:43:58,761 --> 00:44:01,961
Speaker 3: we're in the inquest, Kim. They didn't want that person's

687
00:44:02,081 --> 00:44:07,081
Speaker 3: name available in evidence, and you know why because it

688
00:44:07,721 --> 00:44:10,761
Speaker 3: shouldn't have ever been said, because that's just assumptions and

689
00:44:10,801 --> 00:44:14,521
Speaker 3: it's actually accusation and it's not even true. I have

690
00:44:14,641 --> 00:44:17,921
Speaker 3: spoken to you many times about this that your words matter,

691
00:44:18,361 --> 00:44:21,201
Speaker 3: your language matters, and what you say to people can

692
00:44:21,241 --> 00:44:23,961
Speaker 3: have consequences. So you need to be very very careful

693
00:44:24,241 --> 00:44:27,201
Speaker 3: in how you speak to somebody, how you address somebody,

694
00:44:27,401 --> 00:44:30,641
Speaker 3: especially someone with a missing person. And the example was

695
00:44:31,161 --> 00:44:35,121
Speaker 3: I recently just was interviewing a beautiful girl, Amelia and

696
00:44:35,161 --> 00:44:37,761
Speaker 3: her mum, Lauren Whitehead, is missing and She was talking

697
00:44:37,801 --> 00:44:41,761
Speaker 3: about how it took two years to cancel Lauren's gym

698
00:44:41,841 --> 00:44:46,921
Speaker 3: membership because she wasn't a missing person, she wasn't deceased.

699
00:44:47,681 --> 00:44:50,041
Speaker 3: In the legal side of things, like, there's no box

700
00:44:50,321 --> 00:44:52,601
Speaker 3: to tick, so you're either alive or you're missing. There's

701
00:44:52,601 --> 00:44:55,481
Speaker 3: no in between for that missing person. And so we're

702
00:44:55,521 --> 00:44:57,881
Speaker 3: just trying to help people who are listening and working

703
00:44:57,921 --> 00:45:00,601
Speaker 3: in an environment where if you find yourself talking to

704
00:45:00,641 --> 00:45:02,601
Speaker 3: somebody who rings you up and says, hey, I have

705
00:45:02,681 --> 00:45:07,361
Speaker 3: a missing person, trying to educate and teach people how

706
00:45:07,481 --> 00:45:10,521
Speaker 3: language and how your words matter, and even if it

707
00:45:10,601 --> 00:45:12,761
Speaker 3: is tricky and you do have hoops to jump through,

708
00:45:13,161 --> 00:45:15,281
Speaker 3: you actually just pause for a moment, think about what

709
00:45:15,321 --> 00:45:19,361
Speaker 3: that person's going through, and actually try and make a

710
00:45:19,401 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: solution or bring a solution to the table, rather than saying, oh, well,

711
00:45:23,481 --> 00:45:26,321
Speaker 3: you need your missing person to ring us and tell

712
00:45:26,401 --> 00:45:29,481
Speaker 3: us that they don't want their membership anymore, because that

713
00:45:29,601 --> 00:45:34,561
Speaker 3: just has absolutely zero compassion and zero empathy for that

714
00:45:34,841 --> 00:45:38,761
Speaker 3: case at that time, and they're triggering moments in life

715
00:45:38,961 --> 00:45:40,201
Speaker 3: when you have a missing person.

716
00:45:40,241 --> 00:45:42,321
Speaker 4: In my opinion, it's.

717
00:45:42,241 --> 00:45:46,401
Speaker 5: Okay to recognize that there's been a mistake. Don't let

718
00:45:46,441 --> 00:45:51,881
Speaker 5: your embarrassment about making a mistake or missing something out,

719
00:45:52,161 --> 00:45:57,121
Speaker 5: or your work performance being judged be more important than

720
00:45:57,481 --> 00:46:01,561
Speaker 5: the importance of a missing person. And my example is

721
00:46:01,681 --> 00:46:07,601
Speaker 5: that I only became aware of the importance of a

722
00:46:07,801 --> 00:46:12,881
Speaker 5: proof of life situation for Bromwyin when I actually attended

723
00:46:12,881 --> 00:46:14,641
Speaker 5: the coroner's inquest.

724
00:46:15,001 --> 00:46:17,081
Speaker 1: Those nine years leading up.

725
00:46:17,321 --> 00:46:22,561
Speaker 5: At no time was I ever questioned thoroughly or accurately

726
00:46:23,241 --> 00:46:29,721
Speaker 5: to retrieve information or witness experience that I had actually had,

727
00:46:30,321 --> 00:46:32,881
Speaker 5: And that to me is a clear failing. It's not

728
00:46:33,041 --> 00:46:38,321
Speaker 5: my job as a family victim to forth a whole

729
00:46:38,361 --> 00:46:43,081
Speaker 5: pile of information, or change the questions or control the questions.

730
00:46:43,761 --> 00:46:45,921
Speaker 1: At twenty one and even today.

731
00:46:45,801 --> 00:46:48,601
Speaker 5: I should be able to trust that whoever is going

732
00:46:48,641 --> 00:46:53,201
Speaker 5: to ask questions about my missing sister is going to

733
00:46:53,361 --> 00:46:57,601
Speaker 5: cover all bases and all possibilities. It's not my job.

734
00:46:57,681 --> 00:47:01,641
Speaker 5: It's not me on the watch. It's for the investigators

735
00:47:01,681 --> 00:47:05,241
Speaker 5: to do. And when I came across that I they

736
00:47:05,521 --> 00:47:11,601
Speaker 5: had firsthand information that needed to be disclosed to the coroner,

737
00:47:12,321 --> 00:47:16,841
Speaker 5: I was shut down and I was dismissed. And on

738
00:47:16,881 --> 00:47:20,081
Speaker 5: that last day of the inquest, when the coroner announced

739
00:47:20,121 --> 00:47:22,601
Speaker 5: at the end, is there anyone in this court room

740
00:47:22,881 --> 00:47:28,201
Speaker 5: that feels that they need to add any information relevant

741
00:47:28,521 --> 00:47:33,841
Speaker 5: relevant to the disappearance of Bromwin Winfield. I clearly remember

742
00:47:34,281 --> 00:47:40,761
Speaker 5: hanging my head in shame because I had been told

743
00:47:41,721 --> 00:47:45,481
Speaker 5: to keep quiet and not say anything because it was

744
00:47:45,561 --> 00:47:48,801
Speaker 5: way too late for the brief of evidence to be changed.

745
00:47:50,321 --> 00:47:54,681
Speaker 3: What steps do you feel at this point need urgent reform.

746
00:47:55,481 --> 00:47:59,201
Speaker 1: We have a system that is definitely not working.

747
00:47:59,521 --> 00:48:03,761
Speaker 5: We can see clear gaps of where there is critical errors.

748
00:48:04,121 --> 00:48:08,801
Speaker 5: We see clear gaps where family victims that are living

749
00:48:09,081 --> 00:48:13,321
Speaker 5: with a missing person or are awaiting on a resolution

750
00:48:13,441 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 5: to an unsolved homicide. It's becoming very hectic, sally, it's

751
00:48:18,801 --> 00:48:24,641
Speaker 5: becoming extremely messy. And when you google what does it

752
00:48:24,761 --> 00:48:27,121
Speaker 5: mean when there's a national issue?

753
00:48:27,281 --> 00:48:30,641
Speaker 1: Do you know what comes up? The word crisis comes up.

754
00:48:31,681 --> 00:48:33,161
Speaker 1: There's actually a.

755
00:48:33,281 --> 00:48:37,961
Speaker 5: Very serious set of issues that must be addressed. And

756
00:48:38,081 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 5: why should we wait for something severe to happen any

757
00:48:44,001 --> 00:48:47,081
Speaker 5: more than what's already happening. There has to be a

758
00:48:47,121 --> 00:48:51,001
Speaker 5: parliamentary inquiry. That may mean that it can't be done

759
00:48:51,041 --> 00:48:54,641
Speaker 5: across the nation, but if we could actually start with

760
00:48:54,881 --> 00:49:00,561
Speaker 5: one state or one territory and create an evolving modernized

761
00:49:00,641 --> 00:49:02,281
Speaker 5: model of what needs to happen.

762
00:49:02,601 --> 00:49:04,721
Speaker 1: There's got to be a review.

763
00:49:04,441 --> 00:49:08,001
Speaker 5: Of how things are done, and easy way of putting

764
00:49:08,081 --> 00:49:11,201
Speaker 5: it is there has to be system reform. There needs

765
00:49:11,241 --> 00:49:15,641
Speaker 5: to be a framework where all stakeholders involved in the

766
00:49:15,681 --> 00:49:19,201
Speaker 5: missing person space. There has to be a community consultation

767
00:49:19,321 --> 00:49:22,841
Speaker 5: amongst stakeholders, and we have to work together to co

768
00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:26,801
Speaker 5: design a way forward because the system is broken and

769
00:49:27,561 --> 00:49:30,961
Speaker 5: something really bad is going to happen before too long,

770
00:49:31,161 --> 00:49:33,081
Speaker 5: and some of us.

771
00:49:32,961 --> 00:49:34,801
Speaker 1: Have to step up and we have to.

772
00:49:34,761 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 5: Address the trauma that is ongoing because this victim mindset

773
00:49:40,481 --> 00:49:41,361
Speaker 5: has to shift.

774
00:49:41,761 --> 00:49:43,961
Speaker 1: We can't continue to.

775
00:49:44,121 --> 00:49:49,281
Speaker 5: Live in a world where we are publishing our sadness.

776
00:49:49,881 --> 00:49:53,161
Speaker 5: We have every right to stand tall and get our

777
00:49:53,281 --> 00:49:58,881
Speaker 5: language right and be a reference for how money is

778
00:49:58,961 --> 00:50:03,121
Speaker 5: allocated and how services are allocated, the review of the

779
00:50:03,201 --> 00:50:07,921
Speaker 5: justice system, how it relates to space, and most importantly,

780
00:50:08,641 --> 00:50:12,641
Speaker 5: it seems that the state commands and the police forces

781
00:50:12,681 --> 00:50:16,961
Speaker 5: in each state and territory would really benefit from as

782
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:19,321
Speaker 5: shared knowledge, wisdom and experience.

783
00:50:19,841 --> 00:50:22,401
Speaker 3: There's power of the people and we're stronger together, right,

784
00:50:22,601 --> 00:50:25,481
Speaker 3: we all have to work together. I'm hoping that just

785
00:50:25,521 --> 00:50:28,321
Speaker 3: even what I'm doing is bringing more awareness to the

786
00:50:28,361 --> 00:50:32,441
Speaker 3: missing space and sharing stories. And I even was on

787
00:50:32,481 --> 00:50:35,121
Speaker 3: the phone to the company who's looking after my dad

788
00:50:35,201 --> 00:50:38,001
Speaker 3: right now in his time of death, and the woman

789
00:50:38,881 --> 00:50:42,001
Speaker 3: said to me, your voice is very familiar to me,

790
00:50:42,441 --> 00:50:45,841
Speaker 3: and I'd said, my name is Sally and I said, oh,

791
00:50:46,201 --> 00:50:48,241
Speaker 3: do you happen to listen to podcasts? And she said,

792
00:50:48,321 --> 00:50:50,561
Speaker 3: I knew it was you. It just means that the

793
00:50:51,441 --> 00:50:56,041
Speaker 3: word and the voice is getting louder and further and

794
00:50:56,121 --> 00:51:00,481
Speaker 3: people are hearing, which help bring awareness and power.

795
00:51:00,881 --> 00:51:01,681
Speaker 1: It's incredible.

796
00:51:02,481 --> 00:51:05,201
Speaker 5: I'm even hoping that I can get every hairdresser in

797
00:51:05,241 --> 00:51:08,121
Speaker 5: Australia to know Sally Laden.

798
00:51:08,481 --> 00:51:10,401
Speaker 1: And that's only one small piece.

799
00:51:10,761 --> 00:51:15,921
Speaker 5: The further and wider we go across communities, across industries,

800
00:51:16,681 --> 00:51:20,321
Speaker 5: through sectors. We're going to build a bridge, Sally, and

801
00:51:20,441 --> 00:51:23,481
Speaker 5: let's build a bridge that's bigger than Sydney Harbor Bridge.

802
00:51:23,841 --> 00:51:25,441
Speaker 1: But do you know what that's going to take.

803
00:51:25,721 --> 00:51:28,521
Speaker 5: Because when you were framing up the beginning of your question,

804
00:51:28,881 --> 00:51:33,881
Speaker 5: you said, how can community It starts with the stakeholders.

805
00:51:34,521 --> 00:51:39,921
Speaker 5: So everything that each stakeholder is doing within as Space

806
00:51:40,721 --> 00:51:44,681
Speaker 5: needs to find a way to remove their ego, open

807
00:51:44,801 --> 00:51:49,321
Speaker 5: up their ears, have their eyes wide open, and be

808
00:51:49,601 --> 00:51:55,641
Speaker 5: ready to build the hugest toolbag of resources and assets

809
00:51:55,761 --> 00:52:00,721
Speaker 5: that we possibly can muster and if an independent body,

810
00:52:00,761 --> 00:52:03,721
Speaker 5: and what I mean by that is a board on

811
00:52:03,801 --> 00:52:07,881
Speaker 5: a nonprofit organized that does not have any lived experience.

812
00:52:08,081 --> 00:52:09,681
Speaker 1: We need experts.

813
00:52:09,761 --> 00:52:15,361
Speaker 5: We need skilled people that can do the red tape grind.

814
00:52:16,201 --> 00:52:21,601
Speaker 5: Whilst us dynamic experts can be on foot in the

815
00:52:21,601 --> 00:52:24,001
Speaker 5: field being frontline workers.

816
00:52:25,041 --> 00:52:30,041
Speaker 3: How can listeners help make a difference in practical ways?

817
00:52:30,721 --> 00:52:33,201
Speaker 3: I wanted you to talk about the fact that there's

818
00:52:33,241 --> 00:52:36,761
Speaker 3: a phone number in Tazi Oh that you need some

819
00:52:36,841 --> 00:52:38,081
Speaker 3: helpful At.

820
00:52:37,921 --> 00:52:39,881
Speaker 5: One point, I've decided I was going to do a

821
00:52:39,881 --> 00:52:42,321
Speaker 5: bit of Sally and Joni because.

822
00:52:42,041 --> 00:52:44,481
Speaker 1: There's a phone number that has not.

823
00:52:44,521 --> 00:52:48,961
Speaker 5: Been identified to my understanding of a call made tasmy

824
00:52:49,041 --> 00:52:52,161
Speaker 5: now it is a phone number that I'm not familiar with,

825
00:52:52,961 --> 00:52:55,481
Speaker 5: and so the only way for me to track it

826
00:52:55,521 --> 00:52:58,161
Speaker 5: down as an everyday person is I thought I'd take

827
00:52:58,201 --> 00:53:01,801
Speaker 5: myself off to the archives and I have to book

828
00:53:01,881 --> 00:53:06,201
Speaker 5: the access to the phone book of nineteen ninety three

829
00:53:06,641 --> 00:53:10,001
Speaker 5: by appointment. So I've actually managed to go back a

830
00:53:10,041 --> 00:53:12,761
Speaker 5: couple of times, but I've only got to page sixty three,

831
00:53:13,561 --> 00:53:17,121
Speaker 5: and there's obviously still a large number of pages to go,

832
00:53:17,761 --> 00:53:20,681
Speaker 5: and that also then includes the yellow Pages, which I've

833
00:53:20,681 --> 00:53:24,761
Speaker 5: started on as well. And I was wondering whether there

834
00:53:24,801 --> 00:53:28,041
Speaker 5: were any people out there with skill sets that actually

835
00:53:28,561 --> 00:53:32,481
Speaker 5: would be able to help me find an answer to

836
00:53:32,641 --> 00:53:35,841
Speaker 5: who my sister was talking to, because the call goes

837
00:53:35,881 --> 00:53:39,801
Speaker 5: for over three minutes, so it wasn't like she rang

838
00:53:39,841 --> 00:53:41,001
Speaker 5: a phone number in era.

839
00:53:41,401 --> 00:53:43,481
Speaker 1: She was actually talking to somebody.

840
00:53:44,081 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 5: I have gone to local Facebook community groups and I

841
00:53:47,481 --> 00:53:53,041
Speaker 5: have trapped down the phone number back to twenty ten.

842
00:53:53,561 --> 00:53:55,881
Speaker 1: Some people have actually reached out, but that as far

843
00:53:55,921 --> 00:53:56,721
Speaker 1: as they can get.

844
00:53:56,761 --> 00:54:00,761
Speaker 5: So I actually know what exchange the phone number is

845
00:54:00,801 --> 00:54:04,721
Speaker 5: linked to, and I know the address and the residents

846
00:54:04,761 --> 00:54:08,761
Speaker 5: have where the phone number in twenty ten was belonging to.

847
00:54:09,321 --> 00:54:11,161
Speaker 5: But that's as far as I've got, and I need

848
00:54:11,201 --> 00:54:13,641
Speaker 5: to get back to nineteen ninety three. So I thought

849
00:54:13,641 --> 00:54:15,881
Speaker 5: the best way was to go through the phone book

850
00:54:16,041 --> 00:54:19,281
Speaker 5: and physically find it, but it could be a silent

851
00:54:19,361 --> 00:54:22,641
Speaker 5: number when I actually get through the phone book as well. Well.

852
00:54:22,641 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: That's how we found the phone number. We had our

853
00:54:25,361 --> 00:54:30,561
Speaker 3: eleanor superhuman who went and hand scanned thousands of phone

854
00:54:30,601 --> 00:54:34,561
Speaker 3: numbers to identify who belonged to the phone number in

855
00:54:34,601 --> 00:54:37,681
Speaker 3: the ad in the newspaper that we found, which was

856
00:54:37,961 --> 00:54:41,761
Speaker 3: a very key moment in our investigation. And I will

857
00:54:41,761 --> 00:54:43,641
Speaker 3: tell you that the police said that they only could

858
00:54:43,721 --> 00:54:46,121
Speaker 3: go back as far as X Y Z and they'd

859
00:54:46,201 --> 00:54:48,081
Speaker 3: found the guy who had that phone number, and they

860
00:54:48,121 --> 00:54:50,241
Speaker 3: were like, oh, definitely he has nothing to do with

861
00:54:50,281 --> 00:54:53,321
Speaker 3: your mum kind of thing, without really looking too far

862
00:54:53,361 --> 00:54:55,641
Speaker 3: into it turns out he didn't, but it does prove

863
00:54:55,681 --> 00:54:57,841
Speaker 3: that the records do exist and they do sit there.

864
00:54:57,921 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: So we'll put a call out and see if there's

865
00:54:59,961 --> 00:55:03,201
Speaker 3: any super sluice, particularly in Tazzi, who.

866
00:55:03,081 --> 00:55:04,121
Speaker 4: Might be able to help Kim.

867
00:55:04,201 --> 00:55:07,841
Speaker 3: You can email tell me at info at the Missingmatter

868
00:55:07,881 --> 00:55:08,561
Speaker 3: dot com.

869
00:55:09,241 --> 00:55:09,961
Speaker 4: You've told me a.

870
00:55:09,881 --> 00:55:12,761
Speaker 3: Lot over the years about your mama, Barbie. I know

871
00:55:12,881 --> 00:55:15,681
Speaker 3: she would be so proud of you, Kim, and the

872
00:55:15,761 --> 00:55:18,241
Speaker 3: daughter and the sister that you are today.

873
00:55:19,041 --> 00:55:20,641
Speaker 4: And by all accounts, your Nan.

874
00:55:20,761 --> 00:55:24,561
Speaker 3: And Barbara were both very strong, passionate women, so it's

875
00:55:24,561 --> 00:55:26,641
Speaker 3: no real surprise to me that you were equally as

876
00:55:26,721 --> 00:55:30,401
Speaker 3: strong and determined. Barbie sadly did pass away in two

877
00:55:30,481 --> 00:55:33,201
Speaker 3: thousand and six, but I'd love you to share a

878
00:55:33,361 --> 00:55:38,001
Speaker 3: memory that you have about Barbie's baby book for Bronnie.

879
00:55:38,041 --> 00:55:44,681
Speaker 5: Barbie was a very attentive mother, and she had completed

880
00:55:44,721 --> 00:55:48,321
Speaker 5: a baby book for Bromlin from back to front with

881
00:55:48,441 --> 00:55:54,441
Speaker 5: the most amazing photographs and the most beautiful entries and dialogue,

882
00:55:54,721 --> 00:56:00,281
Speaker 5: had all Brohmer's milestones, and that baby book somehow was

883
00:56:00,401 --> 00:56:04,921
Speaker 5: not in her matrimonial home when she was locked out,

884
00:56:05,521 --> 00:56:11,041
Speaker 5: and I find that incredible. My understanding from stories I've

885
00:56:11,081 --> 00:56:15,601
Speaker 5: been told is that Mum was not able to retrieve

886
00:56:15,761 --> 00:56:19,721
Speaker 5: any of her belongings, so when she had actually left

887
00:56:20,241 --> 00:56:22,801
Speaker 5: with Bromwyn to go and help.

888
00:56:22,761 --> 00:56:25,201
Speaker 1: And then with the death of her.

889
00:56:25,041 --> 00:56:30,361
Speaker 5: Husband, our grandfather, Mum must have taken the baby book

890
00:56:30,481 --> 00:56:34,361
Speaker 5: with her because she had all intentions of actually starting

891
00:56:34,401 --> 00:56:37,561
Speaker 5: a baby book for Andrew. There is no baby book

892
00:56:37,601 --> 00:56:42,721
Speaker 5: for Andrew. So I am just so thrilled that that

893
00:56:42,881 --> 00:56:48,081
Speaker 5: baby book has survived all the generational history and trauma

894
00:56:48,321 --> 00:56:52,281
Speaker 5: and it is very safely in the hands of Bromwyn's

895
00:56:52,321 --> 00:56:58,041
Speaker 5: eldest daughter. We actually got that to Crystal before Mum

896
00:56:58,121 --> 00:56:58,841
Speaker 5: passed away.

897
00:56:59,081 --> 00:57:01,361
Speaker 1: Mum decided it was time to part with it.

898
00:57:01,761 --> 00:57:07,841
Speaker 5: I believe Mum had formed her final opinion that Bromwin

899
00:57:08,361 --> 00:57:10,961
Speaker 5: was no longer here. She actually writes it in her

900
00:57:11,281 --> 00:57:16,321
Speaker 5: diaries and she released it to Crystal, and Crystal has

901
00:57:16,361 --> 00:57:19,921
Speaker 5: that as a beautiful treasure. The biggest point of all

902
00:57:19,961 --> 00:57:24,161
Speaker 5: of talking about this baby book is that our mother

903
00:57:24,721 --> 00:57:28,521
Speaker 5: was an attentive mother, because how many people do you

904
00:57:28,801 --> 00:57:32,681
Speaker 5: know that would have had access to a camera back

905
00:57:32,681 --> 00:57:36,641
Speaker 5: in those days, would have had the time or made

906
00:57:36,641 --> 00:57:39,601
Speaker 5: the time to actually complete a baby book from front

907
00:57:39,601 --> 00:57:44,121
Speaker 5: to back. Because I know that as each child I've had,

908
00:57:44,481 --> 00:57:47,681
Speaker 5: I don't have complete baby books for all four of

909
00:57:47,721 --> 00:57:50,681
Speaker 5: my children, and I'm going to be very authentic and

910
00:57:50,801 --> 00:57:51,521
Speaker 5: own up to it.

911
00:57:52,441 --> 00:57:55,081
Speaker 3: I would like to give a shout out to Bromwin's cousin, Meghan.

912
00:57:55,801 --> 00:57:58,721
Speaker 3: Meghan gave evidence at Bromwin's inquest in two thousand and two,

913
00:57:58,721 --> 00:58:02,001
Speaker 3: and together you have both been able to connect so

914
00:58:02,121 --> 00:58:05,601
Speaker 3: many threads of Bronnie's life, ensuring that she's not forgotten.

915
00:58:07,081 --> 00:58:08,801
Speaker 3: What would you like to say about Meghan?

916
00:58:09,681 --> 00:58:16,161
Speaker 5: I am just so thrilled that Megan and I are connected,

917
00:58:16,841 --> 00:58:22,521
Speaker 5: because I have never had a relationship with Megan. Even

918
00:58:22,561 --> 00:58:26,801
Speaker 5: though she was at the inquest, the inquest that I attended,

919
00:58:26,961 --> 00:58:29,921
Speaker 5: even though I was asked not to attend it, I

920
00:58:30,001 --> 00:58:33,641
Speaker 5: still went, But I never actually got to even talk

921
00:58:33,681 --> 00:58:36,361
Speaker 5: to Megan there. I had no idea who she was.

922
00:58:36,961 --> 00:58:42,001
Speaker 5: Meghan has been able to help Bromwan not be as

923
00:58:42,121 --> 00:58:47,761
Speaker 5: missing in my life because between us those threads and

924
00:58:47,841 --> 00:58:51,401
Speaker 5: of all Bromin's history, it's just amazing. And I just

925
00:58:51,561 --> 00:58:56,361
Speaker 5: hope that they become the caretakers of Broman's legacy.

926
00:58:57,001 --> 00:58:59,481
Speaker 1: I really do. And if it wasn't.

927
00:58:59,281 --> 00:59:03,761
Speaker 5: For my mum who had kept all her correspondence and

928
00:59:03,881 --> 00:59:06,681
Speaker 5: had told me still over the years that there was

929
00:59:06,761 --> 00:59:10,761
Speaker 5: this lovely person called Megan that wrote to her, that

930
00:59:10,881 --> 00:59:15,801
Speaker 5: sent her photos and Megan wrote back, I am so

931
00:59:15,881 --> 00:59:18,601
Speaker 5: glad my mother shared that with me, because I made

932
00:59:18,681 --> 00:59:22,561
Speaker 5: sure that I seek to Megan out to know her myself,

933
00:59:23,761 --> 00:59:28,481
Speaker 5: and I understand her in many ways. And it doesn't

934
00:59:28,481 --> 00:59:33,161
Speaker 5: matter who you are, doesn't matter what you are. Everybody

935
00:59:33,201 --> 00:59:37,601
Speaker 5: associated to Bromwin counts. And that's what I really want

936
00:59:37,641 --> 00:59:41,841
Speaker 5: the investigators to always be aware of, is that all

937
00:59:42,041 --> 00:59:47,361
Speaker 5: perspectives count, doesn't matter how it's delivered, what language is used.

938
00:59:47,921 --> 00:59:51,881
Speaker 5: It's their job to actually tease that out and get

939
00:59:51,961 --> 00:59:56,081
Speaker 5: the truth right. If anyone out there that is on

940
00:59:56,601 --> 01:00:01,561
Speaker 5: their job and they're responsible in their jobs for actually

941
01:00:02,241 --> 01:00:09,881
Speaker 5: investigating disappearances or soul unsolved homicide, it's actually their responsibility,

942
01:00:10,121 --> 01:00:13,561
Speaker 5: and part of that is also then being accountable forgetting

943
01:00:13,641 --> 01:00:17,241
Speaker 5: the truth. And I want all the leaders across the

944
01:00:17,361 --> 01:00:23,481
Speaker 5: nation to really understand clearly that this has to all

945
01:00:23,601 --> 01:00:28,881
Speaker 5: stop because too many people are coming up with clear

946
01:00:29,401 --> 01:00:33,601
Speaker 5: gaps in what's not actually channeling through. And we all know,

947
01:00:33,881 --> 01:00:38,361
Speaker 5: we've always known communication is one of the biggest challenges ever.

948
01:00:38,921 --> 01:00:42,721
Speaker 5: So can you all please get it right. It's just

949
01:00:42,761 --> 01:00:44,601
Speaker 5: got to stop. It's got to stop.

950
01:00:46,401 --> 01:00:49,681
Speaker 3: If you could speak directly to Bronwyn today, knowing what

951
01:00:49,721 --> 01:00:51,001
Speaker 3: you know, what would you say to her?

952
01:00:51,881 --> 01:00:52,321
Speaker 1: Bronnie?

953
01:00:52,321 --> 01:00:57,001
Speaker 5: In many ways, I actually know that you're safe, and

954
01:00:57,121 --> 01:01:00,521
Speaker 5: I also know you deserve to have your girls back.

955
01:01:00,961 --> 01:01:06,281
Speaker 5: Whatever happens, whatever comes to light, let it come. But

956
01:01:06,801 --> 01:01:09,361
Speaker 5: at the end of the day, all I can do,

957
01:01:09,681 --> 01:01:12,441
Speaker 5: and I won't stop doing it for you, is I

958
01:01:12,481 --> 01:01:16,201
Speaker 5: will make sure that your girls know who you are

959
01:01:17,201 --> 01:01:19,801
Speaker 5: because you're still with us, not gone.

960
01:01:20,881 --> 01:01:24,361
Speaker 3: On that note, can you share with us why Bromwa matters.

961
01:01:25,081 --> 01:01:31,321
Speaker 5: Bromn matters because she is just one story, one version

962
01:01:31,601 --> 01:01:36,561
Speaker 5: of things that have kept happening time over again and

963
01:01:36,641 --> 01:01:40,641
Speaker 5: again and again. It's the really big question of why

964
01:01:40,681 --> 01:01:45,641
Speaker 5: she matters. But if we make it about the bigger picture,

965
01:01:45,921 --> 01:01:49,361
Speaker 5: it's about trust and it's about kindness.

966
01:01:49,401 --> 01:01:51,801
Speaker 1: And if trust and kindness can't be there.

967
01:01:51,601 --> 01:01:56,321
Speaker 5: In relationships, well then do the right thing and step

968
01:01:56,321 --> 01:02:01,321
Speaker 5: aside and let other people have a happy life, because

969
01:02:01,361 --> 01:02:05,081
Speaker 5: when you try to control people, when you try to

970
01:02:05,121 --> 01:02:09,721
Speaker 5: take away from people, it's those elements that build the

971
01:02:09,801 --> 01:02:16,281
Speaker 5: foundation of a good human society. And I just really

972
01:02:17,001 --> 01:02:24,761
Speaker 5: believe that Bromwin matters because she deserved to be able

973
01:02:24,801 --> 01:02:27,921
Speaker 5: to fulfill her role as a nurturing mother and that

974
01:02:28,001 --> 01:02:33,761
Speaker 5: was taken away from her and her girls lost their

975
01:02:33,801 --> 01:02:38,561
Speaker 5: mother when and that should never have happened, the simple

976
01:02:38,601 --> 01:02:42,401
Speaker 5: as that it didn't need to happen, didn't need to happen.

977
01:02:46,201 --> 01:02:50,361
Speaker 2: Next week, on the missing matter, I.

978
01:02:50,561 --> 01:02:53,721
Speaker 6: Took it upon myself to try and research as much

979
01:02:53,761 --> 01:03:00,561
Speaker 6: as I could about how large scale DNA identification programs

980
01:03:01,801 --> 01:03:04,601
Speaker 6: work in other parts of the world, because you know,

981
01:03:04,641 --> 01:03:07,521
Speaker 6: we weren't talking about tens of remains. We're talking about

982
01:03:07,681 --> 01:03:12,841
Speaker 6: hundreds and hundreds of sets of remains. Someone tried to

983
01:03:12,881 --> 01:03:15,121
Speaker 6: tell her that that wasn't a good idea for her

984
01:03:15,161 --> 01:03:18,641
Speaker 6: to go and view those remains, because you know, that

985
01:03:18,721 --> 01:03:21,081
Speaker 6: shouldn't be the last thing that she needs to see

986
01:03:21,161 --> 01:03:24,841
Speaker 6: or remember that that individual from. But you know, I

987
01:03:24,881 --> 01:03:27,241
Speaker 6: think we owe it to every family of a missing

988
01:03:27,281 --> 01:03:31,841
Speaker 6: person to get onto those bones, so you know, sal

989
01:03:32,401 --> 01:03:36,601
Speaker 6: so other people in your situation know, is my loved

990
01:03:36,601 --> 01:03:39,561
Speaker 6: one sitting there on a box and why the hell

991
01:03:39,601 --> 01:03:43,721
Speaker 6: are they? You know, I truly believe that no one's

992
01:03:43,801 --> 01:03:48,721
Speaker 6: story should end in anonymity simply because of the forensic.

993
01:03:48,361 --> 01:03:52,641
Speaker 4: Resources that were or weren't available. You know at the

994
01:03:52,681 --> 01:03:55,241
Speaker 4: time or place that someone had died,