WEBVTT - Antoinette Lattouf on beating the ABC in court

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<v Speaker 1>Anette, Welcome to Maam. First of all, how are you going? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>That is such a big question.

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<v Speaker 1>When journalist Antonette ler Toofe was fired from her casual

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<v Speaker 1>job at ABC Local Radio purportedly for sharing a Human

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<v Speaker 1>Rights Watch post, she could have just let it go

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<v Speaker 1>and moved on, but instead she chose to fight, and

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<v Speaker 1>her landmark win against the ABC has implications not just

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<v Speaker 1>for the rights of casual workers, but for how all

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<v Speaker 1>journalists in Australia report on GAZA.

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<v Speaker 2>I am relieved, I'm exhausted, I'm a bit shelf shocked.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I knew that this was significant, significant for

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of reasons, but I didn't quite anticipate just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the amount of shock waves and conversations that

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<v Speaker 2>it would inspire around the country but also around the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And a little bit exposed.

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<v Speaker 1>Her case laid bare the efforts of lobby groups and

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<v Speaker 1>how those who should be upholding independence and impartiality failed,

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<v Speaker 1>with the judge finding senior ABC managers had panicked after

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<v Speaker 1>an orchestrated campaign by pro Israel lobbyists to have Miss

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<v Speaker 1>Latouff taken off air. I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening

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<v Speaker 1>to seven Am Today, co founder of at Media and

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<v Speaker 1>applicant in the legal case against the ABC and Network

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<v Speaker 1>two on why she fought at the future of journalism

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia. It's Thursday, July tenth, an Tonette. I wondered

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<v Speaker 1>if you could perhaps just take me back to where

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<v Speaker 1>all of this began, the day that you were fired

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<v Speaker 1>from the ABC. What happened?

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<v Speaker 2>So I was contracted a short stint before Christmas to

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<v Speaker 2>do ABC Sydney local radio. So this is outside of

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<v Speaker 2>the remit of news and current affairs. I had been

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<v Speaker 2>a freelance journalist for a few years, so it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>uncommon for me to be called in to go and

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<v Speaker 2>do local radio. And so it was day three in

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<v Speaker 2>which I was called into a room with my managers,

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<v Speaker 2>three of them that essentially fired on the spot, and

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<v Speaker 2>told to get my bags and leave. I was told

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<v Speaker 2>at the time it was for a Human Rights Watch post,

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<v Speaker 2>but I had also been made to wear a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of days prior that. As soon as I had walked

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<v Speaker 2>in it to the ABC, there was an email campaign,

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<v Speaker 2>lots and lots of complaints to the ABC board and

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<v Speaker 2>management about ever hiring me.

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<v Speaker 3>The paper ob tenned dozens of leaked messages from a

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<v Speaker 3>WhatsApp group called Lawyers for Israel, whose members route to

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<v Speaker 3>ABC calling for Latouf to be sacked and threatening legal

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<v Speaker 3>action if she wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was subsequently established by a leak from two

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<v Speaker 2>WhatsApp groups, but the one that's referred to most as

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<v Speaker 2>Lawyers for Israel. And these were lawyers and barristers and

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<v Speaker 2>heads of organizations or orchestrating to put pressure on the

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<v Speaker 2>ABC to fire me because they didn't like my views

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<v Speaker 2>on Gaza.

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<v Speaker 4>Antoinette Latoufe was sacked this afternoon, as she should have

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<v Speaker 4>been for her anti Israel social media posts. Here's one

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<v Speaker 4>of those posts.

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<v Speaker 2>Have a listen, Israelis get killed, Palestinians just die. Language matters,

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<v Speaker 2>Israelis are always killed. You can also use the word slaughtered,

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<v Speaker 2>barbarica tas victims and terrorism when describing their tragic debts

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<v Speaker 2>for Palestinians. Given the body can't exceeds ten thousand, best

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<v Speaker 2>to keep it ambiguous.

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<v Speaker 4>How the hell did she ever think she was going

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<v Speaker 4>to keep a job at the ABC by doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess some people might think, oh, this has been

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<v Speaker 2>a big deal, and this has been a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>coverage and a lot of taxpayer dollars and legal fees

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<v Speaker 2>and whatnot over what is a five day contract, And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to that, I would say it was never

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<v Speaker 2>about five days. More about what my treatment said about

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<v Speaker 2>the ABC's independence and also the implications for journalism more broadly,

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<v Speaker 2>if the ABC, which is our best of the best,

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<v Speaker 2>can't withstand pressure from external lobby groups at a time

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<v Speaker 2>when we're witnessing an unfolding genocide.

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<v Speaker 1>And as you said, you've worked at the ABC many times.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been a journalist for a long time, for more

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<v Speaker 1>than fifteen years, and as part of that you've covered

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<v Speaker 1>court cases, and so you would know, as many journalists

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<v Speaker 1>would know, that in taking legal action against the ABC,

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing something that I think has the potential to

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<v Speaker 1>publicly define you, at least to some people. So when

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<v Speaker 1>you were weighing up whether to take this action, how

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<v Speaker 1>did you decide that doing this would be worth the fight?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really good question, because you are right as

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<v Speaker 2>a journalist and you cover court proceedings or you cover

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<v Speaker 2>defamation or whatever it is, you know it's a very

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<v Speaker 2>taxing and sometimes unduly unfair process, particularly on a woman

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<v Speaker 2>or someone from a minority in the way that they're

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<v Speaker 2>treated or represented. I think what I decided to do

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<v Speaker 2>was I knew that I would have to take hits.

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<v Speaker 2>I would have to take hits from tabloid press, I

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<v Speaker 2>would have to take huge financial hits because the phone

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<v Speaker 2>stopped bringing, the work stopped coming in as a freelancer.

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<v Speaker 2>But I guess I was driven because I knew that

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<v Speaker 2>this gonna sound so cheesy, but honestly, it's how I

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<v Speaker 2>was feeling that this is something that was far more

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<v Speaker 2>significant than just myself. That this was for the integrity

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<v Speaker 2>of our taxpayer funded public broadcaster. This was because I

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<v Speaker 2>had a position to do something to hold somebody accountable

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<v Speaker 2>when people feel really helpless with witnessing the human rights

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<v Speaker 2>atrocities daily ongoing in Gaza, and that anything that I suffered,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be able to cop because the greater benefit and

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<v Speaker 2>the public benefit would be And I know that makes

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<v Speaker 2>me sound like I want to be some mother Theresa,

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<v Speaker 2>but like, if this was just an individual workplace grievance,

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<v Speaker 2>Like if it was just me and a manager and

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't get along and they were a bit rude

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<v Speaker 2>and someone bullied me, I probably would not have litigated.

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<v Speaker 2>But given the context, and given the time in which

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<v Speaker 2>we're in, I just felt it was more significant than

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<v Speaker 2>myself and I.

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<v Speaker 1>Want to go through the trial blow for blow. We

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<v Speaker 1>all watched it play out. There was an incredible scrutiny

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<v Speaker 1>on your case. But I think one of the big

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<v Speaker 1>questions that I have for you is that after sitting

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<v Speaker 1>there and seeing all of those emails and messages that

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<v Speaker 1>were sent between people at the very top of the ABC,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think now about the way that the

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<v Speaker 1>public broadcaster.

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<v Speaker 2>Operates based on the actions and the words and the

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<v Speaker 2>testimonies of that board. I mean absolutely appalling, not just

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<v Speaker 2>in its treatment of me, in the descriptions of.

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<v Speaker 5>Me asked about latouf Ida, Buttro's told the court in

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<v Speaker 5>relation to the Israel Garza conflict she was an.

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<v Speaker 2>Activist wishing COVID it on me.

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<v Speaker 5>In an email, the ABC chair asked whether the two

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<v Speaker 5>had been replaced, suggesting she could get COVID or a

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<v Speaker 5>stomach upset.

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<v Speaker 2>Referring to me as the Antoinette issue. We have an

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<v Speaker 2>Antoinette issue, like appalling, but just in terms of governance

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<v Speaker 2>of a board, like a real lack of integrity, lack

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<v Speaker 2>of leadership. They had eighteen months ample opportunity, and instead

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<v Speaker 2>of fixing it, the doubling and tripling down has done

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<v Speaker 2>irreparable damage to those particular individuals and their legacies, but

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<v Speaker 2>also to the organization writ large.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, my journalists are leading user rooms to

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<v Speaker 1>go independent.

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<v Speaker 2>Today, the court has found that punishing someone for sharing

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<v Speaker 2>facts about these war crimes is also illegal. I was

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<v Speaker 2>punished my political opinion. I won't be taking any questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll have more to say in due time.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>And the federal court found that the ABC contravened the

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<v Speaker 1>fair work at by terminating your employment for reasons, including

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<v Speaker 1>that you held a political opinion opposing the Israeli military

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<v Speaker 1>campaign in Gaza. So when that judgment came down, what

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<v Speaker 1>was that like for you in court?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was vindicating. I always knew that that's

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<v Speaker 2>why I was treated the way I was treated. I

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<v Speaker 2>always knew that I had done absolutely nothing wrong, that

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<v Speaker 2>sharing the Human Rights Watch post wasn't a breach of

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<v Speaker 2>a management directive, and so I didn't feel this great

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<v Speaker 2>relief as I like, ah, you know, it was more

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<v Speaker 2>just like I felt the next vindication, but sadness. Sadness

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<v Speaker 2>that millions of dollars were spent dragging me through the mud,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think always assuming that I would just back

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<v Speaker 2>off and that they would get away with it.

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<v Speaker 1>And none of the seeing A management who were involved

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<v Speaker 1>in your case are at the ABC anymore at about

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<v Speaker 1>true system there David Anderson, Grisoloda Taylor, but the current chair,

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<v Speaker 1>Kim Williams, he spoke in the Press Club. He said

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<v Speaker 1>that you were not sacked.

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<v Speaker 6>Miss Lettoof was not dismissed. Miss Latoof was on our five.

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<v Speaker 6>Miss Latouff had a five day contract and under that

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<v Speaker 6>contract the contract was brought to a close at the

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<v Speaker 6>end of the third day.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that say to you about the way that

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<v Speaker 1>the people who are currently at the ABC are thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about what happened and where the organization sits now.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So Kim Williams obviously came in after all of this,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a lot of hope on outside that

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<v Speaker 2>he would come in and fix it up. He had

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of pr opportunity to go, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>new leadership, this is a new year. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>do things differently. So when he stood at the National

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<v Speaker 2>Press Club and reiterated that I wasn't sacked despite the

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<v Speaker 2>Fairwork Commission finding that I was sacked. We were like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he was like and unlike Miss Latooth.

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<v Speaker 6>We have been impeccably silent about the matter, unlike Miss

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<v Speaker 6>Latoof and her representatives who seem to have been devoted

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<v Speaker 6>to sharing on a regular basis with the media.

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<v Speaker 2>And so then try to kind of like categorize me

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<v Speaker 2>as like why is she still talking? Like why is

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<v Speaker 2>she complaining? And so hearing kind of that derision in

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<v Speaker 2>his voice and him taking that stand really signaled to me, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the ABC hasn't learnt anything, it's not sorry about anything,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's not being held accountable.

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<v Speaker 1>And to speak more broadly, across the Australian media landscape,

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<v Speaker 1>how common do you think it is for journalists to

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<v Speaker 1>have their reporting and their social media surveiled scrutinized when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to the war at Gaza? What kind of

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<v Speaker 1>stories have you heard from people in the last two years?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, across the board. And it's not only in

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<v Speaker 2>the media, obviously, it's not only at the ABC. It's

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<v Speaker 2>certainly not only in the media. It's across all sectors.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a level of surveillance and in pinging on freedom

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<v Speaker 2>of political opinion and freedom to assemble and freedom of speech,

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<v Speaker 2>even though I know that that's not a constitutionally you know,

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<v Speaker 2>enshrined right. Unlike the United States, we have seen a

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<v Speaker 2>stifling of an ability to voice, discuss, despair, concern about

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<v Speaker 2>what we're witnessing, and have witnessed live streams on our

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<v Speaker 2>phone in four K for the past two years. We've

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<v Speaker 2>seen you overreach and meddling in creative institutes, Academics bullied

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<v Speaker 2>out of jobs or stood down, doctors investigated by opera

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<v Speaker 2>after bogus claims. You know, doctors who say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we believe doctors and aid workers and healthcare workers shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be killed. But yes, I've heard currentless stories across the

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<v Speaker 2>industry of people either leaving because they can't bear it,

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<v Speaker 2>being pushed out, or just feeling really despondent about the

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<v Speaker 2>future of the media and their role in it. Because

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<v Speaker 2>we're meant to give a voice to the voiceless, We're

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<v Speaker 2>meant to speak truth to power. Except it seems as

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<v Speaker 2>though we can do this on like all topics, except this.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a big asterisk here. And yeah, and I guess

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<v Speaker 2>that's part of why Janfran and I have started an

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<v Speaker 2>independent media company we saw many of our friends and

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<v Speaker 2>colleagues just leave in despair, and we thought, well, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't want to We don't want to go because

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<v Speaker 2>you know, then, I guess those people in those WhatsApp

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<v Speaker 2>groups get what they want. They get us silenced and

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<v Speaker 2>sacked and unemployed. And so we are seeing a few

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<v Speaker 2>people trying to start independent offshoots.

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<v Speaker 1>Speaking of the WhatsApp groups, You've spoken about the role

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<v Speaker 1>of lobbyists several times, and I just wonder over the

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<v Speaker 1>course of the last couple of years, what you have taken,

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<v Speaker 1>what you've learned about how lobbying operates in practice.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, like, lobbyists can lobby, it's what they do right,

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<v Speaker 2>And there are lobbyists of all stripes. There are lobbyists

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<v Speaker 2>across industries, across religious groups, across business groups, across government.

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<v Speaker 2>Opposition like ABC has always been lobbied. It's not something

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<v Speaker 2>that the pro Israel camp created. It's just when the

0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.520
<v Speaker 2>lobbyists are the loudest and only voice heard that I

0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.000
<v Speaker 2>think we have a real problem. And also when it

0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.600
<v Speaker 2>trickles down to audiences where they're like, we can see

0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 2>that influence the way in which stories are framed and

0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.920
<v Speaker 2>who we humanize, and who we go to as an

0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.680
<v Speaker 2>authority and whose lives we deem more important, and the

0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>adjectives we use to describe the loss of one life

0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.640
<v Speaker 2>as opposed to the loss of twenty thousand other lives.

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 2>I think audiences are rightly skeptical and if the ABC

0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.559
<v Speaker 2>wants to remain relevant and trusted as the most trusted

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 2>news source in the world, it needs to show that

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 2>it can withstand lobbying of any form.

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.280
<v Speaker 1>And I just had one final question. There's been a

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.560
<v Speaker 1>lot of commentary around what makes a person a journalist

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.439
<v Speaker 1>or an activist, and I wonder if you have thoughts

0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.959
<v Speaker 1>on who decides where that line is and what it's

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>based on.

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.120
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I have so many thoughts on that. It's so

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 2>funny because when the Murdoch Press want to do something

0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 2>like they'll call it a campaign. So they're like, we

0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 2>have a campaign to get work from home people, employees

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 2>back to the office, back to the CBD because CBD

0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.600
<v Speaker 2>cafes are struggling, And they're like, oh, that's cute. You

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.200
<v Speaker 2>call that a campaign. Is that activism journalism? There are

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 2>certain topics in which we accept the journalists are allowed

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.840
<v Speaker 2>to have an opinion on now we accept that climate

0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.400
<v Speaker 2>changing systs. You know, for a long time, sections of

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.120
<v Speaker 2>the press denied it. And so if a journalist has

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:28.240
<v Speaker 2>views critical of polluters, that's not considered activism journalism. And

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.560
<v Speaker 2>so I see that that framing usually reserved for those

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.760
<v Speaker 2>who have the least access to power. And so for me,

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 2>as a woman, and as a woman of an Arab background,

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a way to discredit me, calling me an activist journalist,

0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 2>irrespective of my years and years of experience across many

0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 2>outlets and all these awards, and I've even started a

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 2>media not for profit and I've done all of these

0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 2>things because I dare to have a political opinion rooted

0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 2>in facts. Oh well, we can't trust her because she's

0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 2>an activist journalist, and it's just not applied as liberally

0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to other journal So I think it's a convenient label

0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.080
<v Speaker 2>that tries to discredit somebody who either has a different

0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>opinion or is getting too close to challenging power that

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>wants to remain unchallenged. That's my view.

0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.040
<v Speaker 1>And Tonette, thank you for your time.

0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thanks for having me.

0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 1>You can hear more of Anette Latoof's work on the podcast.

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.160
<v Speaker 1>We used to be journos from ET Media. We asked

0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Kim Williams to speak with us for this episode, but

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 1>he declined. In a public statement, current ABC Managing director

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Hugh Marx said, we regret how the decision to remove

0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Miss Latoof from air was handled and the distress occasioned her.

0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.160
<v Speaker 1>We extend our sincere apologies to Miss Latouf and wish

0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 1>her well in her future endeavors. Also in the news today,

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the Ambonezi government says it's urgently seeking clarity after US

0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>President Donald Trump warned countries can expect two hundred percent

0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.360
<v Speaker 1>tariffs on all pharmaceutical imports. In twenty twenty four, Australia

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 1>exported roughly two point one billion dollars of medicinal and

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.800
<v Speaker 1>pharmaceutical products to the United States, and Treasurer Jim Chalmers

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:19.000
<v Speaker 1>says he's seeking more detail on Trump's announcement. And Victoria's

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Do Anti Hate Task Force has met for the first

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 1>time following a series of incidents in Melbourne, including the

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 1>fire bombing of the East Melbourne Synagogue. Premier Decenter Alan

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 1>says the group has heard from the Chief Commissioner of

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Victoria Police, who says the force is ready to act

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.880
<v Speaker 1>and respond to the incidents in a strong manner. I'm

0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.