WEBVTT - 18 years of catching killers: Hank Idsinga Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.800 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.080 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:51.200 Recently retired homicide Inspector Hank Hinsinger is exactly the kind 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.880 of detective I would have wanted working alongside me. Hank 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.800 spent thirty four years on the job, a large portion 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.680 of that in homicide. He rose through the ranks from 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:05.679 detective sergeant to inspector, eventually taking charge of Toronto's homicide squad, 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.320 one of the most demanding roles in Canadian law enforcement. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.600 Over the course of his career, Hank worked virtually every 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.319 type of case you can imagine, going head to head 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.600 with some of the most dangerous in calculating criminals the 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.800 city has ever seen. I could talk to Hank all day. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.120 Have a listen to what he's got to say. You'll 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.679 find it fascinating. Hank It Singer, thanks very much for 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.280 coming on I Catch Killers. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.240 Thanks for having me Gary. Amazing that we can chat 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:38.400 like this from oppostin ends of the planet. So I'm 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:39.320 really happy to be here. 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.759 How the world has changed. I spent the weekend reading 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.160 your book The High Road, and I've got to say 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.280 I got lost in the pages. I as a former 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.720 homicide detective myself. There was so much in that book 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.320 that I could resonate with and I enjoyed it. Really. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.440 It had a behind the scenes look at the costs 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.320 that comes with investigating homicide and all the other bits 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:04.440 and pieces that go with it. 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.280 You know what, and our careers, I think, time wise, 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.680 were very similar. I spent thirty four years with the 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.440 Toronto Police Service, joined in nineteen eighty nine, and I 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.720 spent eighteen years in homicide. I first started in homicide 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.600 in two thousand and five and I never left. I 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.840 started as a detective, made my way up to detective sergeant, 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.440 and then ultimately the last five years spent as the 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.960 unit commander of the homicide squad until my retirement in 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.600 late twenty twenty three early twenty twenty four. And no 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.680 doubt about it, lots of stories in the book about 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:42.480 people we lost along the way, whether through to murder 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.680 or suicide or even natural death because of the stress 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.359 and the physical and mental demands of the job. It's 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.200 a tough job and it's a very even tougher job 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.200 to do it well. So I'm grateful to have made 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.040 it to retirement and enjoying a fairly healthy lifestyle here 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.920 in the retirement, and it was a great opportunity to 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:05.520 read the book as well. Well. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.360 I like someone that I know that you're at the 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.240 sharp end and spending that much time in homicide and 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.880 that much time in the police, it does come at 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:15.840 a cost, and it's good to see people walk out 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.840 the other end in relatively one piece and got the 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.720 future after at please, so congratulations on that. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:23.600 Thank you. 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.560 As to form a homicide detectives, we're going to talk 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.960 about homicide, and I think it's appropriate that we just 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.919 pay homage to the victims, because I know, if you've 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.960 worked the cases as long as you have, it leaves 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.680 an indelible impression on you and the victims. And the 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.880 thing about homicide, it's not just one life that's taken. 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.680 There's a ripple effect. There's so many other lives impacted 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.160 upon in a negative way. So yeah, I think it's 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.119 just important we give acknowledgment to all the victims that 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.160 the cases that you worked and the lives that were destroyed. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:04.800 Yeah. Absolutely. You know, eighty homicide cases, eighty victims whose 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.640 deaths I investigated over the years, and every single one 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.360 of them definitely embedded in my memory. But not just them, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.600 but their family members left behind as well, and their 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:20.240 loved ones left behind, and even the family members and 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.920 loved ones of the suspects and the accused. You know, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.000 they go to prison for the rest of their lives, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.320 usually for making one really bad decision at a really 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.520 bad time, and their families end up being devastated as well. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.239 So it's almost like a double pronged sword, both having 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.159 the victims' families and the accused families they're going to 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.680 suffer for the rest of their lives. As well as 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.680 the community at large. Right, the entire city I think 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.760 really suffers whenever somebody needlessly gets killed on the streets. 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.279 Yeah, and it's interesting you make the point because I 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.880 think a lot of people miss that and that the 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.120 families of the suspects quite often, as you said, and 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.000 we know in homicide and we meet some despicable people, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.760 but there is also people that have made that one 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:16.159 mistake and a terrible mistake, but their lives have taken 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:17.320 away virtually as well. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:23.279 So yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know a lot of times, 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.560 I mean, you're right, some of them are absolute monsters, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.159 and you know, I don't want to have any sort 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:34.680 of compassion or relationship with them. But even then, sometimes 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:40.000 the family members who really can't control what the suspects 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.320 are doing yet they still get caught up in the aftermath, 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.440 always had a sast spot there for them. Yeah. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.880 Do you stay in contact with any of the families 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.800 of the homicide victims, so the people that still reach 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:54.760 out to you and you have that connection with. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.560 Them, Yeah, absolutely, Especially with the press and the media 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.320 surrounding the book. I had a few of them reach 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:07.279 out to me. One particular person that I still have 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.680 a relationship with are the homeowners of fifty three Mallory 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:16.680 Crescent in Toronto where the serial killer Bruce MacArthur disposed 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.400 of victims in the backyard, and they actually came to 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.599 my book launch, so it was great to see them. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:28.240 But for the years after that case was resolved, I 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.360 quite regularly go and sit and have coffee with them 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.520 in their backyard and chat about things, and still have 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.599 a really good relationship with them. So the victims of 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:47.440 the murders as well, much like the MacArthur case, usually email, 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.680 text message, definitely have a good relationship. I talk about 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.040 the Don Johnson case in the book. Still in regular 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.560 contact with the victims mother and stepfather, and I relay 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.880 that in the book. So not all of them, but 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.320 certainly there are some who had really good relationships with 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.960 and maintain those relationships to this day. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.040 Yeah. Well, that's that's sort of a reflection of your career, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.679 and it's rewarding that that part of your policing career. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.720 You can get accolades for different different reasons and different things, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.240 but when you've got the respect and gratitude from families 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.480 of people that you've probably met at the worst time 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.560 in their life, you've come into their life and the 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.040 fact that you've still got a relationship that reflects well 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.520 on you. So yeah, it's interesting. I found stepping away 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.800 from homicide that was the that was the most rewarding 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.280 part that you could speak to these the families of 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.600 the victims that you've met over the years, and you 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.240 have a good relationship with them, and they become friends 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.880 or almost like family some of them because it's so 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.560 intense what you've what you've been through. I was speaking 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.920 to a former Scotland Yard homicide cop and he may 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.360 made a point to me that when he left and 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.120 he worked homicide about as long as you and I did, 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.120 so he was in the thick of it. And he 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.440 said when he left the police and of his choosing 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.280 and he decided he had enough, he said that's when 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.560 he felt the weight of the emotion from the cases. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.880 And he said that when he was running the cases 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.880 or working the cases, he wasn't sitting with the heavy emotion. 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.280 You feel it, but not carrying it. And we discussed 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.760 that a bit and he said we both came to 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.920 the sort of conclusion. I think when you're involved in homicide, 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.800 you haven't got time to dwell on the emotional impact 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.000 and you move forward. You've got a job to do, 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.800 and you work. Then you step away from it, and 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.880 then you think, ah, that was pretty heavy what I 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.800 saw and what happened. You've only recently been retired. After 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.320 he raised that with me, I reflected and thought, yeah, 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.199 I understand where you're coming from. Have you felt any 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.240 of that now that you've stepped away from the pressure 0:08:58.240 --> 0:08:59.640 of being a homicide detective. 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.040 Yeah? Absolutely, And I think you both nail it is. 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.040 When you're in the moment, you have to be so 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.360 focused on doing the job and getting the job done, 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.960 and getting it done properly to the highest standards because 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.160 that's what the court's demand, So there's not a lot 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.600 of time for emotion. Sometimes you get a little bit 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.200 emotional there in the court process, which is a year 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.920 and a half two years after the fact, especially dealing 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.560 with the victims' families through the court process, but really 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.640 leaving the job and sometimes being brought back to some 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.680 of those stories, especially when going through the book and 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:49.600 you writing about the child murders, for instance, and thinking 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.800 back and wondering, wow, how did I keep that going 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.080 for months and months and months on end? Without really 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.840 breaking down. And some officers do break down, and a 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.840 lot of officers that type of work, they're not cut 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.080 out for it, and if they dip their toe into it, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.040 sometimes they check out. But it's a very very heavy 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.280 job emotionally and physically that you have to do to 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.840 do homicide work, and you have to have that addiction 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.720 to that homicide work to keep yourself going. Yeah, And 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.480 you know, it's always surreal at the end of the 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.800 court case of that jury comes back and they say guilty, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.280 and you don't get a big way. I never got 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.560 a big wave of emotion or happiness or anything like that. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.760 It's like, Okay, I'm done, onto the next one, right 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:42.000 and away you go. So but definitely, you know, two 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.640 and a half years, almost three years out now from 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.320 the job, definitely going through some of those stories and 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.560 discussing some of those stories that are in the book 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.920 brings on some emotions that you just didn't have while 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.000 you were actually going through the cases. 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:01.120 You mentioned the murder of a child, I think and 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.280 correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going from memory 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.920 from reading the book. But Kathleen or a young girl, Caitlin, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.120 and you found a note and maybe you could explain 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.240 that a noting there that I must remember to wash 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.360 my dishes. It's because I'm awful. That's why no one 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.200 wants me. This is a young girl that was murdered, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.200 but these are the type of things that she was 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:26.800 living with in the home. Can you just tell us 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.440 a little bit about that, because I read that and 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.199 you talked about the emotion you feel just talking about it. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.200 I read that and it sort of hit me on 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.959 some of the cases i'd seen where what happened to 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.200 kids in yeah, not being cared for by the right people. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.200 Kids absolutely are the toughest pieces to deal with. And 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.439 you know, Keitlan Samson was only seven years old and 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:56.280 living with some pretty horrible abuse from her caregivers. She 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.720 was given up by her biological mother. Her biologe father 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.880 was in jail for some drug offenses, and the mother 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:10.520 gave Caitlin to her friends, Warren Johnson and Donna Irving, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.640 and they were bringing her up and she was with 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.240 them for a little over a year before succumbing to 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.200 her injuries that were inflicted upon her. And it was 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.200 August of two thousand and eight when she died. So 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:31.360 spent months on that investigation, and one really interesting thing 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:36.240 is the entire family kept very careful notes, you know, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:42.280 the Irving and Johnson both kept journals and diaries, and Caitlyn, 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.760 you know, only being grade two in school, made a 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:51.120 lot of notes, but for punishment, they would make her 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.000 write out lines. And we found all those documents in 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.760 the apartment and one of the examples that you touched 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.000 upon was I have to learn to wash my day. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.760 So we recovered the sheet of paper and at the top, 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.320 through handwriting analysis, we could see it was one of 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.240 the caregivers writing the first line and then she had 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.679 to copy it all out. And then one of the 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.080 documents that we found was I am an awful girl. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.240 That's why no one wants me. And just the thought 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.640 of making a seven year old girl write that out 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.640 forty or fifty times as a form of punishment just absolutely, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.280 to this day astounds me that somebody could be that 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.000 evil to do that to a little girl. And it's 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:39.440 interesting when you talk about emotion, because I regularly do 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:46.480 a presentation on pediatric death investigations up here, and this 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.360 is one of the cases that I talk about, and 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.240 I always put a picture of those lines up on 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.600 the screen for the class, and for about a year 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.640 or two when I first started presenting it, I couldn't 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.640 read that out without getting choked up about it, and 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.679 that took a long time to get over. And then 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.840 I also talk about in the book when that case happened, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.040 myself and the fellow who initially came on board to 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.000 work the case with me, Our boss called us in. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.960 He says, you know, you guys got to sit down 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:20.760 and talk with one of the senior guys in the 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.080 office because we were both still pretty young, and the 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.880 senior officer had investigated several child murders and he wants 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.760 to chat with you or just kind of debrief And 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.440 we all went and sat with one of these with 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.880 his senior officer in an interview room, and you know, 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.920 he was ostensibly there to support us and debrief us, 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.400 but he within a minute or so broke down himself 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.200 because suddenly all the child murders that he had investigated 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.840 came flowing back and it turned into it. It was still 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.000 a good support session for the three of us, but 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.680 even more so for him than us at the time. Yeah, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.320 so they're very emotional, they're very, very difficult to deal with. 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:12.040 And thankfully most homicide investigators in their careers don't actually 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.040 end up investigating a child death or a child murder, 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.840 and I was involved in a couple of them, and 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.240 both of them are detailed in the book as well. 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:27.920 Yeah, I know our homicide at one stage that any 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.600 suspicious death of a child was passed on the homicide 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.680 and some were natural causes. But we were in undated 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:41.080 at one stage with investigating children's death. Sometimes it was homicide, 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.240 sometimes it was natural causes. But it took a toll 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:46.720 on a lot of people in the office at the 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.360 time that we were just getting in undated investigating child 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:51.960 deaths because they're never nice. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:53.640 Now they're very difficult. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.920 I was going to ask you you enjoy homicide, but 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.000 I think it could probably be best summed up. And 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.400 this is another thing from your book, the interview when 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.000 you went for a panel to become a member of 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.240 the homicide squad, and the first question that this panel 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.880 of senior police officers asked you was why do you 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.280 want to work in the homicide squad? And you answered, 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.280 you're kidding me, right? I mean, this is it, isn't it? 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.440 This is a pinnacle. Anyone who takes pride and investigative 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.800 work wants to work here. Okay, So I think that 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.280 gives us a sense of your thoughts of getting the homicide. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:28.920 Is that a proper representation? 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.360 Yeah? Absolutely. I mean it was nineteen ninety one when 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.960 as a young uniform asser I found myself at a 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.000 murder scene and I was so impressed by the homicide 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.440 officers who showed up. I said, that's what I want 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:47.880 to do, and always focused my policing in down the 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.880 investigative field and through the investigative branches, and ultimately in 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.600 two thousand and it was actually two thousand and four 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.680 when I interviewed for the homicide squad. I started there 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.800 in early two thousand and five. And you know, the 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.920 interesting thing about that interview is had we had standard 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.400 interview questions for the homicide Squad, and when I became 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:19.000 Munich commander, I use that same question for people who 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:24.360 wanted to come into homicide. And I think maybe out 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:28.720 of the probably twenty twenty five people that I interviewed 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:34.320 over five years, maybe one of them gave a similar answer. Right. 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.960 But they're being true to themselves, right. They weren't giving 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:44.000 that expected, boiler plate, politically correct answer, that that most 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.960 candidates would give, but they gave that honest answer where 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:52.000 it was like, you're kidding me, right, Like what investigator 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.200 doesn't want to work here? This is absolutely the cream 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.200 of the crop of investigators. It's the pinnacle of investigative work. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.000 And nothing is held to a higher standard in our 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:08.000 courts than homicide cases. So if you want to be 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.960 a great investigator, this is where you do it right. 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.320 And as not to besmirch the guys who are working 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.200 hold ups and the guys who are working the sex 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:23.960 crimes investigations, but the best defense lawyers and the best 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.520 judges and the toughest judges in the city, they're overseeing 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:34.720 that homicide case. And I always said, until you push 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.320 a homicide investigation that you've been in charge with and 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.359 it's contested in court through that court system, win or 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.080 losing court, you really don't have an appreciation as to 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.760 what we do and why we do it. And that's 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.800 the ultimate judge right there is take one of those cases, 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.840 which of course takes years from the day you start homicide, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.560 usually two or three years before you're in that situation 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.240 where you've controlled the keys from the beginning right to 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.000 the end. And now you can say, okay, now I 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.600 get so. To me, it was always the pinnacle. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.479 Look, I agree, and that you paid tribute to the 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.200 other specialist police, whether it's drugs or the mhold up squad, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.719 sex crimes. And there's people in those squads and units 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.720 just as passionate as we are as homicide. I would 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.520 often joke there's homicide detectives and then there's people that 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.760 want to be homicide detectives. That went over reasonably well 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.880 when I was lecturing on detectives courses another and it's 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.920 interesting you talk about the interview panel for homicide. As 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.399 I got more soon you're in the police. I started 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.000 to sit on the panels for homicide, and there was 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.520 a structure where you know, what are the proofs of homicide? 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.280 This and that? And I decided to mix it up 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.680 a little bit on the interview panel and just said, 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.720 you know, tell me a job you've bled for. And 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.479 so people are coming in there prepared, they've done all 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.920 the study, the need for explaining what homicide is about, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.000 understanding the law. I get that, but anyone can learn that, 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.240 and you I just dropped it on them, Well, tell 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.400 me a job that you've actually bled for because they're 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.760 the type of detectives I wanted to working with in homicide, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.000 ones that you know, when it gets tough, that's when 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.000 they really roll up their sleeves. And I got some 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.520 interesting responses from that, but it helped me assess the 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:25.440 people that were coming into homicide. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:30.440 Yeah, I mean, I mean same. I really really focused. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.280 A lot of people wanted to come to homicide so 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.680 they could tick that checkbox yeah right, and say Okay, 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:38.560 I've done it. They'll do it for a few years 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.000 and then they'll move on because it's a great little 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.880 bit of experience for future promotional considerations. And I really 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.320 tried to stay away from people like that. I want 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.480 you to be here because this is what you want 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.560 to do, you know. I want those ten to fifteen 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.240 twenty year homicide guys. I don't want the three or 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.080 four year hormone side guys. You have to have that 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.480 addiction to the work and this is all you want 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.639 to do. And if you've got twenty years left in 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.760 your career and this is it for promotions, but you're 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.840 doing homicide work, that's the type of person I want. 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.919 And we ended up with a fantastic team of people 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.840 in homicide and we broke some records for clearing homicides. 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:22.119 I think as a result of that. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.000 Yeah, I saw your clear upright, that was outstanding some 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.000 of the times of the percentage of clear up rates. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.560 But you're quite right. And I would see people go 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.760 through the New South Wales Police and I'm sure other 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.600 police forces the same. They spend twelve months in homicide 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:41.520 and for the rest of their career they're telling everyone 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.000 they're a homicide detective. And I really think I worked 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.960 homicide for twenty years and I learned every single day 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.359 I came there was something else that I learned that 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.439 I just was a build up of experience. And I 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.400 don't think you're a real homicide detective until you spent 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:00.520 about five years in there, starting at the bottom, taking 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.639 those matters through court, because there is so much, so 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.480 much to learn. I was fortunate I had some great 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:11.040 mentals and I acknowledge them any chance I get that 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.480 they taught me the trade. I felt like I was 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.720 doing an apprenticeship learning the skill of a homicide detective. 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.359 Who were your mentals. I'm sure you had some people 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.280 that you looked up to and guided you in your 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:24.320 career In homicide. 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.080 Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I do my best to 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:32.119 acknowledge them in the book. The very first one I 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.959 acknowledged was a fellow named Mike Hambell, who was the 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.679 homicide detective who showed up at that first murder that 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:40.800 I was at in nineteen ninety one as a young 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.680 uniform officer, and I bumped into him on another murder 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:46.760 case a couple of years after that, and he was 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:49.680 just so impressive. Like I said, I kind of said, 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.520 that's who I want to be. And then when I 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:56.440 started a homicide you know, sixteen years after I joined 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.760 the police service, and I had done a ton of 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:03.520 investigative work in the divisions, and you know, I was 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.800 king of the castle in the detective office in the 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:08.880 division that I worked at, and I thought I knew 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.600 it all, and then I started in homicide and learned 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:18.000 very quickly that I didn't know squat right. The fellow 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.000 that I was paired up with was named Mark Saunders, 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.000 and eventually Mark went on to become the chief of 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:28.320 police up here in Toronto. But he was just absolutely 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:34.919