WEBVTT - “Not all killers are evil”: Chris Blake Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Detective

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<v Speaker 1>Senior Sergeant Chris Blake. Chris is a serving police officer

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<v Speaker 1>with New Zealand Police and is the manager of the

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<v Speaker 1>Behavioral Science Unit. Chris and his team of psychologists and

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<v Speaker 1>analysts provide operational support to major criminal investigations. In part one,

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<v Speaker 1>we got the general sense of the type of support

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<v Speaker 1>his team provides. In Part two, we talk in depth

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<v Speaker 1>about how difficult complex investigations are approached. There is a

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<v Speaker 1>science in the way cops go after the bad guys,

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<v Speaker 1>and anyone interested in true crime will enjoy this conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>Chris Blake, Welcome back to Part two off I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, it's great still be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Got to admit I do enjoy speaking to the cops

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<v Speaker 1>or ex cops or whatever it's. When you've been involved

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<v Speaker 1>in the world for a long time, it's nice to

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<v Speaker 1>chat to someone that understands that.

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<v Speaker 2>Will, Yeah, for sure. And because it's one of those

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<v Speaker 2>things until you actually do it, it's really to articulate

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<v Speaker 2>the exactly what goes on.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, I'll hit you up with a hard one right

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<v Speaker 1>at the start. You are a bit of a crime

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<v Speaker 1>nerd because you're also an author of a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>fictional crime novels, The Sound of a Voice and the

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<v Speaker 1>recently released Softly Calls the Devil, which I might add

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<v Speaker 1>the New zeal And. Harold stated about the book harrowing,

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<v Speaker 1>compelling and quite brilliant.

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<v Speaker 3>That's not bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Rap, it's not too bad.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, how did you fall into that space? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Funny story that I didn't read a lot growing up.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Biggles and Tinton were my favorites, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>very much of a type, right, But wasn't a big reader,

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<v Speaker 2>terrible at writing. I didn't understand English. Yeah, all didn't

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<v Speaker 2>get it. And it wasn't until I was in the

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<v Speaker 2>police and I worked with this guy called Simon Wyatt

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<v Speaker 2>and he's a good maid of mine. Out of the blue,

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<v Speaker 2>he just says to me, I've written this fiction book.

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<v Speaker 2>And I sort of looked at him and went in

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<v Speaker 2>the back of my head, I'm like, that's your bucket

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<v Speaker 2>list thing you do when you're sixty eight, and we

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<v Speaker 2>try and put your novel together and hope it makes

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<v Speaker 2>your grand kids some money or something.

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<v Speaker 3>Setting that that weekend, there were overlooking the lake and

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<v Speaker 3>the mess as you're working away on your typewriter. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>that's right, with.

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<v Speaker 2>The knitted jumper on. And so I look at go oh, like,

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<v Speaker 2>what's it about? And he goes, oh, it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>crime fiction novel, because hey, like we're cops. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we've got a lot of stories, and you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>can come up with a fiction plot and then so

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<v Speaker 2>much to them. And I thought he was nuts. I

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<v Speaker 2>just thought, no way, how could you compete with all

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<v Speaker 2>of the crime fiction that's on the shelves, and he goes, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the point of difference is we actually do it, so

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<v Speaker 2>we can inject a little bit of that police procedure

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<v Speaker 2>or stuff to the book without sort of bogging it

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<v Speaker 2>down too much. The idea just sort of filtered away,

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<v Speaker 2>and I went, all right, well, he's giving it a go.

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<v Speaker 2>He's far more intelligent and better looking than I'll ever be,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'll give it a crack. So that was the

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<v Speaker 2>first book was over several years. I just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>pieced together a story and it was very much entrenched

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<v Speaker 2>in meth manufacture and that organized crime sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just watched season one of True Detective with

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<v Speaker 2>Matthew McConaughey.

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<v Speaker 3>And fantastic was its.

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<v Speaker 2>Brilliant piece of scene, and that sort of inspired it completely.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was one of the first shows i'd seen

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<v Speaker 2>that everything about it was just bleak and dark and sinister,

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<v Speaker 2>and it made me go, there's not a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>stuff out there like that. So that first book was

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<v Speaker 2>very very dark and got viewed and criticized for exactly that.

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<v Speaker 3>Too dark.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, very dark, and there's not a lot of light

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<v Speaker 2>moments in it. So that was sort of an early

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<v Speaker 2>four way into it, and then when I got round

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<v Speaker 2>to writing the second one, I wanted to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>make it a bit more marketable and yeah, a bit simpler,

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<v Speaker 2>and inject a lot of a bit more light and

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<v Speaker 2>humor into it than that first one, certainly, but so

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<v Speaker 2>it would start off as a hobby, I guess someone

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<v Speaker 2>else's idea. Now that it's turned into this, I still

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<v Speaker 2>still really believe it. I've only seen that. I've gone

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<v Speaker 2>into the book shop yesterday and I can't believe there's

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<v Speaker 2>a book bear with it, because I'm just an idiot

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<v Speaker 2>who grew up in Glenfield and Auckland.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you find it relaxing? Was it something that you

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<v Speaker 3>could relax?

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't sort of bringing your work home and there's

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<v Speaker 1>your sitting there writing this book.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it is. It is good, right, and like

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's escapist fiction, so there is authenticity and the

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<v Speaker 2>police work, but the plot is you know, it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's something people will hopefully want to read, so I

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<v Speaker 2>do enjoy you can sit there and write the story

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<v Speaker 2>you want to write, rather than the real world, where

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<v Speaker 2>things often work out the way that anybody wants them

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<v Speaker 2>working out. So it is really good like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think being crime fiction, you know, you if you

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<v Speaker 2>also work in the police, to come up with the

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<v Speaker 2>story or two, you know, whereas I could never write

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<v Speaker 2>science fiction or anything like that, and to write what

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<v Speaker 2>you know. So like my wife would tell you that

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly shouldn't write near romance, but stick with what

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<v Speaker 2>you know and like crime fiction.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope you dedicated the book to your wife.

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<v Speaker 1>The front the Counterbalance. I had one opportunity. I was

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<v Speaker 1>invited to write a chapter and the fictional crime book,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was just a lot of different writers and

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<v Speaker 1>I've done nonfiction writing and played with my mind. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there and thinking, Okay, I've got to make this

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<v Speaker 1>really sick, and I'm almost like had the whiteboard out

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<v Speaker 1>trying to work the crime out, and then who stupid,

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<v Speaker 1>This is fiction.

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<v Speaker 3>You can take it wherever you want it.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, but I always ask, I'm always interested with

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<v Speaker 1>people that write that fictional crime novel. Do you know

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<v Speaker 1>the ending or do you just start writing and take

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<v Speaker 1>it where it goes?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm all over the place, like I don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a myth at at all, because you know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>a writer by trade, so looking up the rough idea,

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<v Speaker 2>and for this one, it was I'm going to sit

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<v Speaker 2>in Hearst to New Zealand there's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>murder and maybe a colt involved, and that I now

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<v Speaker 2>have to just start writing and I go, okay, what

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<v Speaker 2>would the cop do next? So I write what they

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<v Speaker 2>do next in real life? And then that's really boring,

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<v Speaker 2>so then I just have to tweak it slightly and

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<v Speaker 2>then it sort of goes that way now, which is

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<v Speaker 2>quite good. And now I've got this character. I just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of sit there and I go, okay, I know

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<v Speaker 2>what I would do, and I know what the police

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<v Speaker 2>should do, but what would Matt Bukennan do? And you

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<v Speaker 2>can kind of take me on those more fictional plot

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<v Speaker 2>lines that the real police wouldn't actually.

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<v Speaker 3>Do, wouldn't wouldn't do.

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<v Speaker 1>And I suppose you had to become more descriptive in

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<v Speaker 1>your writing because the writing I've done, the feedback I

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<v Speaker 1>got initially was that would be a good fact sheet Gary,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're trying to give people something a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>more descriptive. Not I arrived at seven am on the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seventh of November.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that type of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>My gloves and I put another pair on and yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I struggle with that too, and I probably the one

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<v Speaker 2>thing I try and put a lot of into my

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<v Speaker 2>as a realistic dialogue between between people. Yeah, that's where

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<v Speaker 2>policing background comes and really handy is not so much

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<v Speaker 2>the plot itself, but how people actually talk to each

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<v Speaker 2>other and how cops and people are dealt with and

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<v Speaker 2>spoken to. So it's rich in dialogue, which actually helps

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<v Speaker 2>with not being able to describe the rest of it

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<v Speaker 2>because it comes out in the conversations people are having.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's how I kind of deal with that with

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<v Speaker 2>no creative running background, and probably learn the most from

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<v Speaker 2>reading books that I didn't like and going, h, that

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<v Speaker 2>was a terrible way to tell that story, or people

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<v Speaker 2>don't talk like that to each other, and going well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll never do that, and then just trying to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I understand. You mentioned the first season of

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<v Speaker 1>True Detectives. What I liked about that was the conversations

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<v Speaker 1>between the two partners that had that sense of reality

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Yeah, you're just trying to when you get

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<v Speaker 1>paired up as a detective and people, unless you've worked

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<v Speaker 1>at least you don't fully understand you can be not

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<v Speaker 1>even know the person, and then within you meet them,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you're away of that person on the most

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<v Speaker 1>intense experience you possibly could have. And the conversations that

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<v Speaker 1>flow in the police car when you're driving across the

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<v Speaker 1>state or wherever leading into the jobs are quite intense.

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<v Speaker 1>But I like the subtlety of the way they delivered

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<v Speaker 1>that because it was very real to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it was incredibly well done right. And when I

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<v Speaker 2>think back now on that show, and I've watched that

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<v Speaker 2>season so many times, but still the memory that crops

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<v Speaker 2>up is them both just sitting in a car driving somewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so realistic to portray it that at the start

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<v Speaker 2>they both just hate each other, you know, and do

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<v Speaker 2>some horrible things to each other throughout the court thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And I hope, I don't want to blow this for

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<v Speaker 2>anyone that's going to watch this and then watch the show.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's that beautiful moment where they i'd say beautiful

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<v Speaker 2>from a fictional TV perspective, where Matthew McConaughey really covers

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<v Speaker 2>what he Harrelson's ass and despite everything that's happened between

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<v Speaker 2>the two of them, you know, he's still there when

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<v Speaker 2>it counts. And then their relationship in the aftermath. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the most realistic part is if you

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<v Speaker 2>work alongside someone, you go to some pretty tragic, horrific things,

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<v Speaker 2>and that just instantly builds a bond that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know you can bring that person years from now.

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<v Speaker 2>And I still do it around the country. People have

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<v Speaker 2>worked with work in different areas and it's like you're

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<v Speaker 2>just you're sitting having a beer with them, like and

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<v Speaker 2>you might not have seen them for ten years. It's incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well it captured the intensity but also the subtlety

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<v Speaker 1>of what happens in that police car when two people

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<v Speaker 1>are put together that might be pole or opposites, but

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<v Speaker 1>they've got to work together for a common good.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's quite interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, off the fiction, let's get back into your unit.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it's fair to say that the way

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<v Speaker 1>that we approach criminal investigations talking criminal investigations, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>tepic approach and breaking that down, we're looking at deductive

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<v Speaker 1>reasoning that comes into an investigation. These are the type

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<v Speaker 1>of things that detectives come to you to sort of

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<v Speaker 1>when I say deductive reasoning, is that something that you

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<v Speaker 1>can offer investigators like advice that you give them on

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<v Speaker 1>the way to approach it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, so the psychologists on the team can do that.

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<v Speaker 2>They so that unknown offender profiling, which I guess is

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<v Speaker 2>original criminal profiling that all units do. There isn't a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of that these days because we often catch our

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<v Speaker 2>murderers pretty quickly twenty century CCTV, telephones, cell phones, polling,

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<v Speaker 2>dash cans, all sorts of stuff going on for end,

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<v Speaker 2>not to mention forensics. So there's a murder and usually

0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.240
<v Speaker 2>within within hours, the majority of murders are solved and

0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:58.520
<v Speaker 2>someone's been arrested. Those cases from the sixties, seventies, and

0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.960
<v Speaker 2>eighties that fueled a lot of what the FBI did.

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Those serial killers that got away with it for so long.

0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:08.400
<v Speaker 2>That drove that unknown offender profiling, which is the genesis

0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.000
<v Speaker 2>of some of our units. Not a lot of it

0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.640
<v Speaker 2>these days, but they still do do it, usually for

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:18.480
<v Speaker 2>cold cases, for unsolved historical homicides. And Yeah, so they'll

0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.440
<v Speaker 2>do a crime analysis, which sounds very similar to like

0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>a crime scene examination, except they're very much looking at

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>it from that offender behavior perspective. So rather than going, okay,

0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.600
<v Speaker 2>he broken through that window, he went over there, he

0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.360
<v Speaker 2>opened the drawer, left his fingerprints. He tossed that over here.

0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 2>He took that because it's missing, because we've usked the

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.280
<v Speaker 2>owner of what's missing, and he's walked over there. They

0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 2>do have that in there, but they're going, why did

0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.440
<v Speaker 2>he break him through that window? Where had he been

0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.000
<v Speaker 2>before that? How did he know that windows even there?

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.800
<v Speaker 2>That means he must have been watching from somewhere. Where

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.120
<v Speaker 2>would he be watching from? Is that high risk or

0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.200
<v Speaker 2>is that low rist behavior? If it's somewhere where it'll

0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>be incredibly high risk to watch that window, then this

0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 2>is the kind of person or personality we're looking at.

0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Versus if it's a low risk thing, you're probably looking

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.319
<v Speaker 2>somewhere else. And we can see when I see the

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 2>sites on the team do this, you know you're blown

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 2>away by how how logical it is. Yeah, at the

0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.559
<v Speaker 2>same time something I could never do. Ye, And it's

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 2>all based on their both academic and practical experience as

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.080
<v Speaker 2>psychologists before they came into the team.

0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.520
<v Speaker 3>That's an interesting way to put it.

0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 1>It's got that combination, hasn't it That that's what a

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.520
<v Speaker 1>good criminal psychologist, That the type that I was fascinated

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.840
<v Speaker 1>and speaking to Nathan from your team. But that's they've

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:50.280
<v Speaker 1>got the practical experience with the academic qualifications, and yeah,

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 1>I would you've just thrown yourself on the sword there,

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 1>I frow myself on the sword. Sometimes I'd be sitting

0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 1>there and thinking, yeah, of course it's fairly obvious, and

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.080
<v Speaker 1>I'd be walking way making notes going why didn't I

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 1>think of that?

0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's you know, the FBI and the eighties, they're

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.480
<v Speaker 2>talking to offenders and it was Pooperter's witchcraft for so long,

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 2>but so much research and science done since that. Yeah,

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.840
<v Speaker 2>is an academic discipline and yeah, just the knowledge that

0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>they have is incredible.

0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and a good psychologist also draws on the experience

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 1>of an experienced police officer.

0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 3>So that's a combination of skills that they have.

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 1>So I've just got a list of the type of

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.240
<v Speaker 1>things that your unit, how they support the investigators, and

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 1>I just work through a few of them that I

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:45.360
<v Speaker 1>want to want to talk about. Suspect prioritization. Now, from

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 1>a detective's point of view, that's always a hard thing

0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 1>to do. Where do you start when a crime has happened.

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 1>Depending on the crime, you might have hundreds of suspects

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 1>and how do you prioritize which suspect?

0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.160
<v Speaker 3>What does your you that bring to detectives that turn

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 3>up there.

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 1>And I'll use examples of you know, when the child disappears,

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.000
<v Speaker 1>who's in the area at the time, who was known

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.200
<v Speaker 1>to the child, when was the child last scene alive?

0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Who becomes a suspect? How do you work through the prioritization.

0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean so we do mainly in the sexual space.

0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, this example is going to be really it's

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 2>going to sound like it's one oh one, but it

0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 2>obviously far more complicated than this. But you know, if

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.360
<v Speaker 2>you have a case where an intruder is disturbed at

0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 2>the foot of someone's bed, you know, and then they

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.720
<v Speaker 2>leg it, and that's what you're facing. You know, when

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 2>you look at that from an evidential perspective, you go, well,

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 2>he broke and he stood at the bed and then

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.400
<v Speaker 2>he left. He didn't take anything, But we've got a burglary.

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 2>That's the way it'll be coded, and that's the way

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.600
<v Speaker 2>it'll be treated, and they'll be looking for a burglar

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:51.640
<v Speaker 2>and then if it comes to us, we'll go we'll

0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.520
<v Speaker 2>hang on a minute, or why didn't he take anything?

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.200
<v Speaker 2>And why was he standing at the foot of the bed,

0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>and we're going to say that this is a sexually

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.720
<v Speaker 2>motivated crime, So we need to be looking for a

0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 2>sexual offender or at least somebody who has that sexual

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 2>fantasy element to what they've done. And so we're looking

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 2>at a history of sexual offending. Maybe some burglary, but

0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 2>that sexual part is far more important. So our suspect

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 2>priority list would be very geared towards you know, devancies,

0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, voyeurism, stealing clothes, off lines, that stuff would

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>be way more important than someone who's got a massive

0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.240
<v Speaker 2>history of breaking into houses and taking money. Yeah, you

0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. So that would be Yeah, that's

0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.680
<v Speaker 2>how they sort of go about that is what have

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 2>we actually got, What does that mean for the offender?

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.760
<v Speaker 2>And therefore, what does their background look like, because that's

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.480
<v Speaker 2>going to help inform that priority suspect list, is their

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 2>background and who they were before this moment in time.

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>And giving that perspective on it allows because then you've

0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.000
<v Speaker 1>got to prioritize who you're targeting first, like from the police,

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 1>who you're targeting, like eliminating that suspect list, the smaller

0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.080
<v Speaker 1>suspect list. If you're on the right track is better

0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.880
<v Speaker 1>than having a large one. So I understand what you're

0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:14.720
<v Speaker 1>saying there. And for the experience, that would okay, it's

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.760
<v Speaker 1>just a break in that could have been anyone. But

0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.600
<v Speaker 1>the breaking where someone wakes up and someone's standing the

0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 1>end of the bed in the bedroom at night, that's

0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.280
<v Speaker 1>to an experienced person I suppose saying, well, there's a

0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.600
<v Speaker 1>warning there that person was what was he's doing in there?

0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 3>What was motivating?

0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.960
<v Speaker 2>That's right exactly. And you know even where the houses, right,

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.080
<v Speaker 2>so you know that happens, and a lot of people

0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.159
<v Speaker 2>will go, well, it could have been anyone. You go,

0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.680
<v Speaker 2>hang on, that's the third house back down the driveway

0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 2>you can't driving past. So no, this isn't just anyone.

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.600
<v Speaker 2>This would have been incredibly high risk for somebody to

0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.680
<v Speaker 2>just be wandering around doing this like that's not what

0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.199
<v Speaker 2>these types of offenders do. So it's got to be

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.800
<v Speaker 2>somebody local who or lives in the area or frequently

0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.400
<v Speaker 2>in that area to actually even know there's a house

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.040
<v Speaker 2>down there with someone in it. That then is the

0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>genesis for this crime. So that shrinks your geographical search

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.320
<v Speaker 2>as well, right, and so all of that comes into

0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.560
<v Speaker 2>it as well. And there are things that at first

0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.560
<v Speaker 2>glance you just go, this is need on the haystack.

0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:18.760
<v Speaker 2>We're you ever going to get anywhere.

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 1>But it's a way of way of trimming things down

0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.520
<v Speaker 1>the crime scene. In that analyst at the crime scene,

0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.360
<v Speaker 1>do you look at the crime scene if a murder's happened,

0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.480
<v Speaker 1>do your psychologists have a look and go, okay, what

0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.159
<v Speaker 1>have we got here? The obvious one is if someone

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 1>has been their face has been attacked, the general consensus

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 1>is okay, well it was something personal. It's not always

0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 1>a case in my experience, as I say it, but

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.240
<v Speaker 1>there's things that you can tell from a crime scene.

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 1>From a detect this point of view, I'd look at

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 1>the crime scene and think, okay, well the weapon had

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.720
<v Speaker 1>been available at the location, so perhaps they didn't turn

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 1>up with the intent to murder. If a weapon's been introduced,

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 1>they've come there with the intent to murder. Little things

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.280
<v Speaker 1>like that give me some examples of what your team

0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 1>might provide when the cops or the detectives turn up

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.000
<v Speaker 1>and go, this is what we found at the crime scene.

0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:13.400
<v Speaker 3>How do they break that down?

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean, and they do go out when they can.

0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>We're based in Auckland, so unfortunately Auckland gets a lot

0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 2>of use out of us. Yeah, it doesn't cost any

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.639
<v Speaker 2>money to walk out the door. The rest of the

0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 2>country sort of messes out on that.

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:27.679
<v Speaker 3>I can tell you're still in the place.

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.240
<v Speaker 2>So as much as they can, Yeah, and Serena, the

0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.320
<v Speaker 2>two psychologists on the team, will get out on the

0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 2>ground if there's an unsolved case, and even the solved ones,

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.560
<v Speaker 2>they'll get out and look at the scenes. And to

0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.720
<v Speaker 2>be fair, they're probably not doing it so much from

0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.240
<v Speaker 2>a It's not like some of the shows on TV

0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.159
<v Speaker 2>where they walk in and they're like aha, and all

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.159
<v Speaker 2>the detectives have no idea, So help frame it in

0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.360
<v Speaker 2>their heads so that then when they write the report

0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 2>they have actually they've seen how far away A is

0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:01.840
<v Speaker 2>from B. All that kind of good stuff. But yeah,

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.639
<v Speaker 2>that real basic level, it's understanding what drives whatever the

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.800
<v Speaker 2>particular offenses and then being able to go, well, this

0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.359
<v Speaker 2>is this kind of offense. So that example you just

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.520
<v Speaker 2>gave Gary, you know, about a violent homicide. If you

0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.840
<v Speaker 2>walk into a house and there's just blood and bits

0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:23.080
<v Speaker 2>and pieces absolutely everywhere in six different rooms, you know,

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:26.080
<v Speaker 2>like that is that's if we're not talking some sort

0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of major mental struggle or psychosis or nations or something.

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, that is that's anger, and that is emotion,

0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, so that is unlikely to be a complete

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 2>stranger because an emotion of personal things so huge sweeping

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:50.160
<v Speaker 2>generalization for those really violent scenes, if that's not organized

0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.679
<v Speaker 2>crime related for a purpose, generally somebody that's known to

0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the whereas the other end of the spectrum is more

0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.919
<v Speaker 2>the other way. So when it's I don't like to

0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 2>use the word cleaner, but less frenzied, less all over

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.080
<v Speaker 2>the place, less anger involved in it, you know, that

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:12.479
<v Speaker 2>would be more along that sort of serial offender, fantasy driven,

0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.640
<v Speaker 2>purpose driven offending where the offenders are getting something out

0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:21.639
<v Speaker 2>of it. So that's that whole organized verse. Disorganized offender,

0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:29.080
<v Speaker 2>cleaner crime scene, organized planned, thought about blood everywhere, disorganized,

0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't plan it got out, three things got out of hand,

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.359
<v Speaker 2>and now we have this all out of it.

0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And those type of things are what generate the

0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.119
<v Speaker 1>discussion in the briefing room when you're looking at trying

0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 1>to work out what's happened, and it's create case theories

0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 1>or directions of the people you're looking for. I always

0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.040
<v Speaker 1>found a lot I could tell by the way the

0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.200
<v Speaker 1>body was disposed of that that's always a good indicator.

0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:57.639
<v Speaker 1>What's your thoughts on that?

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally right. Again, unless you're suffering under some major

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:06.679
<v Speaker 2>mental illness, no matter what's just gone down, disposing of

0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.400
<v Speaker 2>a body has got to be it's something I can't

0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.560
<v Speaker 2>wrap my head around. Like what we're going through your

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.600
<v Speaker 2>head at the time. I'm imagining a lot of panic,

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:21.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stress, and a lot of anxiety. And yeah,

0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.359
<v Speaker 2>the whole time. If you're trying to avoid law enforcement

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:27.399
<v Speaker 2>is going to guide you a lot. But if you

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.879
<v Speaker 2>had a close relationship with this person you've just killed,

0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.520
<v Speaker 2>that's going to dictate a lot of how you go

0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.880
<v Speaker 2>about things, too right. And that's where you know, if

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:40.400
<v Speaker 2>it was a close ex partner and then there's a dismemberment,

0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:44.120
<v Speaker 2>for example, all those things go into it too right.

0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 2>The panic and stress has obviously overtaken the other emotions

0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 2>through that. But if the body's just left where it is,

0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 2>that's more like a well, I just fucked up in

0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.800
<v Speaker 2>a major way, But the police are going to come

0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and get me, and I'm going to leave them there

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.320
<v Speaker 2>because they need to be dealt with properly, you know,

0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:08.480
<v Speaker 2>So we and usually we haven't had the serial killer thing,

0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.200
<v Speaker 2>unlike Ossie and the States. And I don't know whether

0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:18.240
<v Speaker 2>that's geographically because we're small jurisdiction. We certainly have people

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 2>in prison. I'm sure that may well have gone on

0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:24.600
<v Speaker 2>and killed again, but they get picked up after their

0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:27.800
<v Speaker 2>first murder. So we don't have a lot of experience

0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:31.200
<v Speaker 2>in that serial murderer space where you'd start to see

0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.879
<v Speaker 2>staging of bodies and all that kind of stuff, or

0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:36.080
<v Speaker 2>a pattern to the disposal.

0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you see, I see a lot of panic

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.120
<v Speaker 1>in the way the bodies are disposed of, and that

0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.720
<v Speaker 1>quite often tells tells me a lot. You know, where

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 1>the body has been half buried, and that people clearly

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.040
<v Speaker 1>didn't have the have the intent for the murder to happen,

0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 1>that something's happened, and they're panic because you talked about

0:23:56.240 --> 0:24:00.800
<v Speaker 1>the trauma of disposing of a body. So many people

0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.960
<v Speaker 1>that I've come across during the time as a homicide

0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.760
<v Speaker 1>detective that it's just it's horrifies them that they've killed

0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:11.480
<v Speaker 1>or kill the person, and quite often that it wasn't

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.800
<v Speaker 1>their intent, but it's just evolved or a moment lapse

0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.680
<v Speaker 1>of and it's confronting for people, and they quite often

0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:21.240
<v Speaker 1>panic in the way they respond immediately after.

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and people are I mean, everyone's inherently lazy, right,

0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Like everyone by design is looking for the path of

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.680
<v Speaker 2>least resistance. What's the easiest way to achieve the aim here?

0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:34.879
<v Speaker 2>And body disposal? Is that? Right? All the research that

0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 2>up as I've got to get rid of this, what's

0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>the easiest way to do that. I'm not going to

0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:43.199
<v Speaker 2>take any risks and drive thousands of miles with a

0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 2>body in my car. I'm going to go somewhere I

0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:48.080
<v Speaker 2>know that's secluded. How am I going to do this?

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to spend eight hours, yeah, digging twelve

0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:53.080
<v Speaker 2>meters down. I'm going to do this in the simplest

0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 2>way possible to try and sort it out. And so

0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>that guides a lot of that body disposal stuff that

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the psychologist st is that the path of least resistance,

0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.879
<v Speaker 2>where's the obvious secluded location. Whereas the you know, you're

0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:09.440
<v Speaker 2>not going to drag a body through a heavy jungle

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 2>for a kilometer that's too hard. You're not going to

0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:13.960
<v Speaker 2>drag it up hill that's too hard. You're going to

0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:18.640
<v Speaker 2>go downhill less trees places like that because people are

0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 2>generally lazy.

0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, I had someone that we're searching for a body

0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.879
<v Speaker 1>that he disposed of, and he indicated he'd gone that

0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:29.040
<v Speaker 1>far into the bush. And this was years later when

0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:33.119
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to recover the body. And where he first

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 1>showed this, where he believed he buried the body. It

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:37.880
<v Speaker 1>was in the National Park. It was a long way

0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 1>into the bush. And two I should take credit, but

0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:46.080
<v Speaker 1>I can't. It was Sarah's idea. We put a manequin

0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:48.480
<v Speaker 1>body in the back in the boot of a car,

0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:50.760
<v Speaker 1>drove down to the location in the middle of the

0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:54.040
<v Speaker 1>night at the same time that he disposed of the body.

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:57.159
<v Speaker 1>And when we got there, we hadn't told him we

0:25:57.200 --> 0:25:59.520
<v Speaker 1>had this. It was what the rescue squad used to

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.119
<v Speaker 1>train the carry people out of fires and different things.

0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:06.639
<v Speaker 1>So it weighed about eighty kilos, had the composure of

0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 1>a body, had it in the boot of the car,

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:11.800
<v Speaker 1>and said, okay, we popped the boot.

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Look in the boot of the car.

0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:18.160
<v Speaker 1>We want you to demonstrate how you drag that drag

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:21.119
<v Speaker 1>the body that far. He was surprised by that, and

0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:24.920
<v Speaker 1>on that basis he sort of wound back and thought, Okay,

0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.000
<v Speaker 1>maybe I didn't go one hundred and fifty meters in

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 1>the bush. Maybe it was only thirty meters that changed

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:33.320
<v Speaker 1>the area where we were searching. But that's the panic

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:37.960
<v Speaker 1>of people trying to dispose of the body. Another thing

0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:39.680
<v Speaker 1>that I see you do, and this is a big

0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:45.679
<v Speaker 1>issue in criminal investigation in homicide, is the equivocal death review,

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:50.640
<v Speaker 1>determining whether this death is misadventure, if it's an accident,

0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:54.439
<v Speaker 1>or is it murder. Do your people help out on

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:54.880
<v Speaker 1>that as.

0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, Yeah, for sure, And more and more lately, there

0:26:58.080 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 2>have been a couple of high profile cases in the

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 2>meat recently, and so that's generating a bit of interest there.

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.120
<v Speaker 2>So we are getting more and more requests when there's

0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, when it appears to be a suicide, they

0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:13.400
<v Speaker 2>will reach out to us. And that's one of those

0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.360
<v Speaker 2>areas where I'm so glad that it's the psychologist doing

0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:19.400
<v Speaker 2>that stuff, because you know, and you'll be the same

0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:23.840
<v Speaker 2>garrier you go to. So many tragic suicides in the police.

0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:29.400
<v Speaker 2>So many of them are in ambiguous circumstances or you go, man,

0:27:29.440 --> 0:27:32.040
<v Speaker 2>that's so tragic that that person had to decide that

0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:35.560
<v Speaker 2>that was the way out for them. And there are

0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:38.119
<v Speaker 2>so many variations of it that I can't even a

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:43.000
<v Speaker 2>picture of being able to be academically experienced enough to say, well,

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.120
<v Speaker 2>actually this is indicative of this, that or the other thing.

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:47.480
<v Speaker 2>But there is so much research and it's all just

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:51.399
<v Speaker 2>based on the research overseas, right is things found in

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.960
<v Speaker 2>this way indicators that maybe a few more questions should

0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 2>be asked or a few more conducted, and so it's

0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:02.080
<v Speaker 2>all it's very academic based on research of similar cases

0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:05.720
<v Speaker 2>with similar things. And yeah, there was the recent case

0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:12.920
<v Speaker 2>here in New Zealand Pauline Hannah died and her husband

0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:17.879
<v Speaker 2>was acquitted at trial, and that's progressing through the coronial stage,

0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 2>as happens with everything like that, and so that's raised

0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the interest in that equivocal death space. So Nathan Nathan's

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:28.560
<v Speaker 2>doing a lot of work in that space for us.

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:32.280
<v Speaker 2>But it's a really hard one. It's just so you know,

0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:34.600
<v Speaker 2>it's one of those cases you don't know what, you

0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:37.399
<v Speaker 2>don't know, how do you know where you're going with that?

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:41.520
<v Speaker 1>And if it's broken down and not talking specific cases,

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 1>but if it's broken down that okay, death's happened, that

0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:47.560
<v Speaker 1>it's unnatural, but was it suicide or wasn't a suicide,

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:50.320
<v Speaker 1>they were the most difficult ones. I was called out

0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:54.880
<v Speaker 1>to his homicide whether when I was on the teams, Yeah,

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:57.640
<v Speaker 1>called out that I prefer I know this is a murder.

0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:00.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to put the effort into it. It's simpler

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.200
<v Speaker 1>to solve when the first part of it are we

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 1>even dealing with a murder here, That can be very,

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.600
<v Speaker 1>very difficult. So that type of input I think we

0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:13.800
<v Speaker 1>used to seek on the rare occasions, I think, and

0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I might be using the wrong terminology, but it was

0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:21.200
<v Speaker 1>a psychological autopsy in dissecting, dissecting the person, did they

0:29:21.240 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 1>have that predisposition for committing suicide? Where they indicators that

0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:28.840
<v Speaker 1>type of thing that I found helpful. Invariably they were

0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:33.400
<v Speaker 1>used more so at the coronial inquests and the murder trials.

0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, And yeah, that's the right terminology. So the

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 2>psychological is the syches will do those often for our

0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:45.760
<v Speaker 2>critical incidents, which is usually when somebody's died during a

0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:49.560
<v Speaker 2>police during police and they'll do those, and again it's

0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>to inform the coronial side of things, is to stitch

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:56.160
<v Speaker 2>together the behavior of the person and the lead up

0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>to that event to hopefully try and figure a few

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:02.000
<v Speaker 2>things out and maybe prevent a few things in the future,

0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 2>but that an equivocal depth, pretty much the same, same,

0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 2>very similar, trying to work out the steps leading up

0:30:09.040 --> 0:30:12.200
<v Speaker 2>to it. And does this look the way it looks? Yeah,

0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 2>for a reason that's strange or just because crazy things happen,

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:17.800
<v Speaker 2>and people of.

0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:22.640
<v Speaker 3>People linking crimes, do they help help with that?

0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Like again with and we we don't have had the

0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 1>backpack of Ivan Malatt murders. We had the granny killers,

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.680
<v Speaker 1>We've had a few others, but we don't have a

0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:37.800
<v Speaker 1>whole spate of serial killers. But I've worked on matters

0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:41.160
<v Speaker 1>where we're trying to link crimes and what I what

0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.880
<v Speaker 1>I struggled with this crime has three children that were murdered,

0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:49.200
<v Speaker 1>that what was a motivation and the different ages in

0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 1>the in the children, different sexes in the in the children.

0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:56.440
<v Speaker 1>And I was looking at it from a we got

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:59.920
<v Speaker 1>we've got a serial killer. Here is this person motivated

0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.440
<v Speaker 1>because he wants to kill people, whether the age of

0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 1>the child or the sex of the child. And what

0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:11.160
<v Speaker 1>again with Sarah, she came, she did a report on

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.800
<v Speaker 1>it that the person was driven by sexually motivated in

0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 1>that he wasn't killing the people for the sake of

0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:21.400
<v Speaker 1>killing the people. He was driven by a sexual motivation

0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 1>to if I kill this person, I can have sex

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.720
<v Speaker 1>with that person. There was a sexual motivation to it.

0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:31.160
<v Speaker 1>For years, I worked on that, and I always struggled

0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:34.520
<v Speaker 1>when I was having high level meetings with legal people

0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.600
<v Speaker 1>in the game. But yeah, what are we saying here?

0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:40.080
<v Speaker 1>What was the motivation for these three crimes being linked?

0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.480
<v Speaker 1>And then it became very apparent when Sarah broke it

0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:47.120
<v Speaker 1>down that Hobot the motivation wasn't to murder people. The

0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:51.160
<v Speaker 1>motivation was sexual gratification, and he was prepared to kill

0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.640
<v Speaker 1>for that sexual gratification. And I thought that was interesting

0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 1>how the crimes were linked that way.

0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, very much. So. Yeah, so that's what they add

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:04.760
<v Speaker 2>to it, is that victimology stuff is so such a

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 2>massive chunk of it to working out the motivations of

0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:10.640
<v Speaker 2>the offender. And often, you know, as detectives, we don't

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 2>look at that as much as perhaps we should. But yeah,

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:18.560
<v Speaker 2>if you've got three people dead, Yeah, it's not necessarily

0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:22.120
<v Speaker 2>someone just loves killing. There might be a specific reason

0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:24.480
<v Speaker 2>why each one of the three are killed. This one

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:27.960
<v Speaker 2>was a sexual motivation, but then the other two you know,

0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:32.600
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about destroying evidence or getting rid of witnesses.

0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:36.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's a differentation that can completely color the investigation.

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:41.080
<v Speaker 2>But most of the linkage for us is that lower

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.520
<v Speaker 2>level sexual offending, so the indecent assaults, the touching people

0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:50.600
<v Speaker 2>on buses, assaulting, assaulting people in parks. And it is

0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:53.240
<v Speaker 2>amazing to see the behavioral analysts because that's their gam

0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:56.640
<v Speaker 2>rather than the psychologists. You know, if we have a

0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.360
<v Speaker 2>stranger sexually offend and a park and Towering a they

0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:04.120
<v Speaker 2>can look through their but behavioral database. They know exactly

0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 2>what they're looking for and based on how the offender

0:33:06.880 --> 0:33:10.720
<v Speaker 2>went about this crime yesterday, they can pull out all

0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:14.280
<v Speaker 2>these cases from years gone by and go, actually, you're

0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:16.120
<v Speaker 2>looking for this guy because he did the same thing

0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.000
<v Speaker 2>in Dunedin two years ago. And they can nominate a

0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:22.360
<v Speaker 2>suspect straight away, and then tower will go, well, that's

0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Manny actually lives in Towering and now and we'll go, whoa,

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>that's a surprise, and then they'll go through the evidential

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 2>identification process with the victim to get there. So it's

0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:36.160
<v Speaker 2>incredible to see them and the rest of our police

0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:39.040
<v Speaker 2>systems can't do it. They don't search behavior the same

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:42.480
<v Speaker 2>way that our unit can with our database.

0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:43.800
<v Speaker 3>Do they use by class?

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Is that that's exactly what they use.

0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so that's what we've got over here as well.

0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, yeah.

0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:55.600
<v Speaker 2>So Canadian system and yeah, it's incredible. I'm still figuring

0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:58.320
<v Speaker 2>out how to use it. It would be quite bright to

0:33:58.440 --> 0:33:59.880
<v Speaker 2>use it. Yeah, so they can.

0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:02.760
<v Speaker 1>It's great to be the manager of this unit. By

0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:07.080
<v Speaker 1>the sounds of it, they can. They can surround yourself

0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:09.200
<v Speaker 1>with good people. Chris, you'll be fine. One will no

0:34:09.280 --> 0:34:10.879
<v Speaker 1>one will realize you're the fake.

0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:15.839
<v Speaker 2>The terrible thing is they all know. But they can

0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:19.759
<v Speaker 2>link the Yeah, if there's an offender that's you know,

0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:21.880
<v Speaker 2>if he's in the system before for doing it and

0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:25.560
<v Speaker 2>he's been convicted, then they can nominate the suspect. Often

0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:27.640
<v Speaker 2>they're link crimes together. And this is where it would

0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:31.799
<v Speaker 2>come in handy for Thompson and Rewa. The districts might

0:34:31.840 --> 0:34:34.879
<v Speaker 2>not know who the offender is, but the unit can

0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:37.560
<v Speaker 2>go Actually, you've got a serial offender here. You've got

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:40.520
<v Speaker 2>a guy that's done this nine times in the last

0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:43.399
<v Speaker 2>two years in the same park, and you guys haven't

0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:45.680
<v Speaker 2>picked it up because there's enough space between each one

0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:49.279
<v Speaker 2>that people just forget or they don't look back. I

0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:52.279
<v Speaker 2>don't think they're connected, but it's the same person. And

0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 2>then we can generate a little bit of resource by

0:34:57.080 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 2>going to the district commander and saying you've actually got

0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:02.319
<v Speaker 2>a serial offender. Might want to inject some resource there

0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:04.840
<v Speaker 2>when they can pile a team on it to actually

0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:07.720
<v Speaker 2>look at it, which can often be all you need

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:10.040
<v Speaker 2>to uncover an offender when no one else was previously

0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:13.359
<v Speaker 2>looking at it and giving those timing windows and all

0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:16.160
<v Speaker 2>that sort of stuff. So even when they don't can't

0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:19.719
<v Speaker 2>nominate an offender, it's really helpful to link those things

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:22.920
<v Speaker 2>together and hey, Wellington, you might want to paw some

0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:23.920
<v Speaker 2>resources into.

0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:27.279
<v Speaker 1>This well, And that's the thing we haven't touched on here.

0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:31.279
<v Speaker 1>With cerial offenders, the fact is you're trying to be

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:35.719
<v Speaker 1>proactively prevent further crimes from occurring. So the mention just

0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:39.719
<v Speaker 1>your unit being able to carry the weight that yeah,

0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:43.160
<v Speaker 1>you're looking at the potential cereal offender here. That's going

0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:46.880
<v Speaker 1>to attract more resources because the people in position to

0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:50.720
<v Speaker 1>allocate the resources can't ignore the fact that more crimes

0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:54.439
<v Speaker 1>might be committed unless proper resources are put on the case.

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:57.239
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and that's risk, isn't It's like they're going

0:35:57.280 --> 0:36:00.480
<v Speaker 2>to keep doing this, Yeah, find them and stop them there, right,

0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:01.280
<v Speaker 2>there is the motivation.

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:03.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Okay.

0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Interviewing approaches we talked in part one about whether they

0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 1>kick the door in at six am with the sledgehammer

0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:12.759
<v Speaker 1>and start yelling, or whether you pick up the phone

0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 1>and invite the person to come in. What sort of

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:19.719
<v Speaker 1>help do you guys provide with interview plants or the

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:23.000
<v Speaker 1>way they approach And is it the stick or the carrot?

0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:25.840
<v Speaker 1>Which which way is going to best suit the circumstances.

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean overwhelmingly it's that rapport based approach as

0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:33.600
<v Speaker 2>most of the advice we give, and then that's that's

0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:37.440
<v Speaker 2>tailored to the individual based on their life experiences and

0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:42.279
<v Speaker 2>things like that. The psychologists do advise on those ones

0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.040
<v Speaker 2>where there is a mental health issue there, you know,

0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:50.719
<v Speaker 2>if it's got something going on. Yeah, they'll give that

0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:53.920
<v Speaker 2>advice because they'll say, well, this personality needs maybe a

0:36:53.960 --> 0:36:56.560
<v Speaker 2>little bit more direct questioning because they're not going to

0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:00.200
<v Speaker 2>understand it otherwise, all that sort of safeguard stuff they'll do.

0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:05.240
<v Speaker 2>And then myself and then will just give the general advice.

0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:09.760
<v Speaker 2>But it's overwhelmingly or based an empathetic For most cases,

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:16.320
<v Speaker 2>I've never I've never known a really harsh adversarial interview

0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:21.600
<v Speaker 2>approach to result in an admission of truth. That happens, right,

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:23.880
<v Speaker 2>but there's always probably another reason behind it. Either the

0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:26.719
<v Speaker 2>suspect was always going to admit it, or the weight

0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:29.880
<v Speaker 2>of the evidence was so overwhelming that they decide to

0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:33.400
<v Speaker 2>admit it. But it's generally not because if the police

0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:35.880
<v Speaker 2>interview as being a real dick, they're probably not going

0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to sit there and go, man, I really appreciate the

0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 2>way you're treating me. I'm going to tell you the

0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:44.600
<v Speaker 2>truth is not a lot cool thought process for anybody,

0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:49.759
<v Speaker 2>So that empathetic approach is far more likely to not

0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:53.359
<v Speaker 2>resulting in admission. It's about keeping them in the room,

0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:56.399
<v Speaker 2>happy to be there talking to you, and the more

0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:59.120
<v Speaker 2>conversation you can have with them, the far more likely

0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:01.000
<v Speaker 2>it is that you're going to end up trusting each

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:04.600
<v Speaker 2>other enough to actually start talking about something even remotely

0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:05.640
<v Speaker 2>close to what the truth is.

0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you have a fender leakage too.

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.120
<v Speaker 1>If you have a conversation long enough, invariably something is

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:15.120
<v Speaker 1>something that slips out that they were trying to trying

0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:17.879
<v Speaker 1>to keep away and just in the conversation they lose

0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:20.840
<v Speaker 1>it because spinning a lie or a yarm or denying

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:24.120
<v Speaker 1>something that you've done is hard. If the conversation is

0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 1>going for a long time.

0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:27.880
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and you know, want to shoot yourself in

0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:29.920
<v Speaker 2>the foot too. If the person sitting across from you

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.759
<v Speaker 2>has nothing to do with it, well, you don't want

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:36.520
<v Speaker 2>to create the next generation of people who are going

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:40.960
<v Speaker 2>to hate the police, because if you're treating them that

0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:42.800
<v Speaker 2>way and they've got nothing to do with it, or

0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:46.160
<v Speaker 2>even if they do, well, I'd walk away hating the

0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 2>police as well. So no matter no matter what the circumstance,

0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.240
<v Speaker 2>just being normal and treating them with a bit of respect,

0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:56.239
<v Speaker 2>you can't really go wrong. And if they're always going

0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:58.480
<v Speaker 2>to deny it, well then they probably always would and

0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:01.040
<v Speaker 2>there's not much the bat approaches.

0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:05.239
<v Speaker 1>Quite often I have discussions or had discussions who's the

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.239
<v Speaker 1>best person to be in the interview room with and

0:39:07.280 --> 0:39:10.640
<v Speaker 1>you look at the person. Do they respect authority or

0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 1>someone experience or you're better off sending a junior police

0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:20.080
<v Speaker 1>officer in male female is often a different combination. Sometimes

0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:23.640
<v Speaker 1>it's much better to send the female detect event to

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:26.360
<v Speaker 1>do the interviewing. Is that sort of thing discussed with

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 1>the unit with the interview planning, Yeah, a little bit.

0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:31.960
<v Speaker 2>The psychologists get pretty heavy on that, and they can

0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:34.680
<v Speaker 2>give some pretty good steers to an investigation team. But

0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:38.359
<v Speaker 2>I try and temper that a little bit, because yeah,

0:39:38.400 --> 0:39:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm a passionate believer in that. You know, anybody should

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:44.239
<v Speaker 2>be able to do an interview, and if all you're

0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:47.279
<v Speaker 2>trying to do is generate that rapport, well, if you're

0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a detective, you should be able to step into an

0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:52.320
<v Speaker 2>interview room and have a conversation with someone. So often

0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:56.680
<v Speaker 2>it's as nuanced as who's the type of person that

0:39:56.760 --> 0:40:00.600
<v Speaker 2>can probably has the closest life journey to this person

0:40:00.640 --> 0:40:04.520
<v Speaker 2>that we're actually trying to You know, if somebody, if

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:07.200
<v Speaker 2>the person you're interviewing has got kids, well let's make

0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:10.600
<v Speaker 2>sure the detective that's interviewing them has kids, because they

0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:14.439
<v Speaker 2>talk of children, they can genuinely talk about their own

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:18.560
<v Speaker 2>if they're comfortable doing that to whatever detailed level they're comfortable, right,

0:40:18.600 --> 0:40:22.080
<v Speaker 2>because then building that common ground, So trying to find

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:25.799
<v Speaker 2>the interviewer that can have that natural common ground rather

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:28.919
<v Speaker 2>than trying to make it up or or pretend. It's

0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:32.680
<v Speaker 2>probably the most useful thing. So totally depends on the

0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.600
<v Speaker 2>suspect what they've done. But yeah, just someone in the

0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:37.920
<v Speaker 2>room that can actually sit there and have a conversation

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:40.719
<v Speaker 2>about similar type things that they might be interested in

0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:42.399
<v Speaker 2>or can relate in some way.

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.719
<v Speaker 3>Do you are the detectives buying into this? More and more?

0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:52.520
<v Speaker 1>Still resistance because some of the old school why do

0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:55.000
<v Speaker 1>we need these doctors in I'm not going to have

0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:57.560
<v Speaker 1>a psychologist or whatever you call them in the interview

0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 1>room or advising mate get out of here.

0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 3>There was that resistance.

0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:06.720
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine that it's changing and people are seeing

0:41:06.719 --> 0:41:08.000
<v Speaker 1>the benefits of it.

0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, And I think part of that's down to

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:12.480
<v Speaker 2>the approach, right if you know, if you didn't come

0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:14.680
<v Speaker 2>there and say, you know, this is how you should

0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:17.759
<v Speaker 2>do it, or what you know, what you do is

0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:20.000
<v Speaker 2>bad and this is good, and I'm going to teach

0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:22.319
<v Speaker 2>you how to do this differently, totally the wrong way

0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:25.879
<v Speaker 2>to get by in anything. Yeah, so we more sort

0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:29.120
<v Speaker 2>of go you know, there's always been great interviewers, you

0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 2>know history, They've been fantastic interviewers. No one's and no

0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:37.480
<v Speaker 2>one's created anything new by saying interviews should be report based,

0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:40.040
<v Speaker 2>all that is is putting a label on all.

0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:42.640
<v Speaker 3>Of the good interviewers we're doing all that time.

0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:45.319
<v Speaker 2>That's right. So that's how we frame it as we say,

0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:48.600
<v Speaker 2>you've done plenty of good work. Here's a word for

0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the good stuff you've done. This is why it works,

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:55.239
<v Speaker 2>and so do that and that you're giving yourself the

0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:59.200
<v Speaker 2>best opportunity. And they'll go, Okay, that makes sense because

0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:03.160
<v Speaker 2>everyone's had conversations either inside the police or out inside

0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:07.480
<v Speaker 2>to relate it to that and say that is how

0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:10.080
<v Speaker 2>you need to be talking to this person. You know

0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:12.799
<v Speaker 2>how to do it, you're great at it. That's what

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.680
<v Speaker 2>this is called. And do that in there, rather than

0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:19.600
<v Speaker 2>saying here's a whole new style of interviewing, which no

0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:21.920
<v Speaker 2>one's doing, because that's just not the case. People have

0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:23.279
<v Speaker 2>been still and are doing it.

0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:26.799
<v Speaker 1>I think that where I've seen some interviews fail is

0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:31.000
<v Speaker 1>where people try to do something then it's not natural

0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:34.279
<v Speaker 1>for them to Like I've seen people get stuck, and

0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:37.120
<v Speaker 1>it's not through lack of effort that they're trying. They've

0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.400
<v Speaker 1>seen someone that's got an interview style like this and

0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 1>they want to adopt that, but it doesn't come across

0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:45.280
<v Speaker 1>the same way. If Joe's doing it instead of Peter's

0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:45.960
<v Speaker 1>doing it, you know.

0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:49.239
<v Speaker 3>It's completely different. So mistakes made there.

0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:54.759
<v Speaker 1>But again and clearly your guys are on song with it,

0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:57.840
<v Speaker 1>not coming in and telling this grumpy old detective, look,

0:42:57.880 --> 0:42:59.879
<v Speaker 1>you've got to ask him this. They're not writing out

0:42:59.880 --> 0:43:02.840
<v Speaker 1>the questions. They're just suggesting an approach.

0:43:03.320 --> 0:43:06.520
<v Speaker 2>It's entirely Yeah, we're not doing the interview plan or

0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:08.440
<v Speaker 2>any of that. We're just saying this is how I

0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>go about doing this.

0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Yet well, and people are starting to become more aware

0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:17.960
<v Speaker 1>because I remember very early with our psychologists that we're

0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:21.960
<v Speaker 1>using at work. Initially they thought, oh that must be

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.960
<v Speaker 1>for people who are suffering post traumatic stress. Didn't comprehend

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 1>us to enhance investigations.

0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:32.360
<v Speaker 3>And they are approached, do you want to interview this suspect,

0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.160
<v Speaker 3>as in they've got this miracle, like the psychologists is

0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 3>just going to walk in and oh, yeah, leave it

0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:41.319
<v Speaker 3>with me, I'll interview the suspect. So I think we

0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:43.879
<v Speaker 3>are becoming more more aware of it.

0:43:44.520 --> 0:43:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Another thing that you do, which is I think this

0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:51.719
<v Speaker 1>is a pressure a part risk assessment of offenders. So yeah,

0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:56.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm assuming that might be on bail issues and different

0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:59.799
<v Speaker 1>things like that. Is that come into play reports for.

0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:03.600
<v Speaker 2>The Yeah, mainly around so a lot of those gray

0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:08.520
<v Speaker 2>zones like stalking and things like that, but definitely sexual offenders.

0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:12.279
<v Speaker 2>So investigators and the courts all want to know, is

0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 2>this person going to do it again? You know, can

0:44:14.120 --> 0:44:15.839
<v Speaker 2>we release them on bail or is that a risk

0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to the public or was this a one off that

0:44:18.920 --> 0:44:21.600
<v Speaker 2>has nothing to do with the wider public. So the

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:26.280
<v Speaker 2>psychologists will support those and just give their independent opinion,

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:28.440
<v Speaker 2>so it can go one way or the other. So

0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:32.360
<v Speaker 2>definitely or in the sexual space. Sometimes in the family

0:44:32.440 --> 0:44:36.480
<v Speaker 2>violence space, well, very similar stuff. You know, is this

0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:39.520
<v Speaker 2>person at risk if the offender is out on bail

0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:42.359
<v Speaker 2>or is this not something that's going to carry on?

0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 2>But then yeah, Ever since christ Church in twenty nineteen,

0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 2>the national security environment, yeah, has really overtaken a lot

0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:55.560
<v Speaker 2>of the work that the unit does. So a lot

0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:59.720
<v Speaker 2>of risk assessments in that counter terrorism grievance fueled violence

0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:03.120
<v Speaker 2>space to be able to help the investigation teams go,

0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:06.319
<v Speaker 2>is this person that's saying all the stuff actually going

0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:07.440
<v Speaker 2>to come through all that stuff?

0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:11.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, and that is an area of concern as

0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:16.680
<v Speaker 1>we I think we touched on in part one about ideology,

0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:20.960
<v Speaker 1>when does the ideology become put into practice their thoughts.

0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:27.480
<v Speaker 1>That's concerning We've talked about victimology and the important of victimology,

0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.960
<v Speaker 1>just to explain to people what that's about. If someone's

0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:35.880
<v Speaker 1>been murdered, what what are we looking at with victimology? Like,

0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:38.360
<v Speaker 1>I know how important it is, and that's probably the

0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:41.799
<v Speaker 1>first thing we're looking at when we attended a murder scene.

0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:45.200
<v Speaker 1>What's your your your take on victimology and the importance

0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:47.759
<v Speaker 1>of that to a criminal investigation.

0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I means particularly when the offender is a stranger, right,

0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:54.800
<v Speaker 2>that's when that's when that really comes into it because

0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and you've got to be really careful talking about not

0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.759
<v Speaker 2>confusing it with victim blaming. Completely different, And it's a

0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:06.000
<v Speaker 2>shame because when sometimes we talk about victimology, it can

0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:09.359
<v Speaker 2>come across that way, which is completely not the way

0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:13.400
<v Speaker 2>it's intended. It's about trying to work out what brought

0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:17.120
<v Speaker 2>the two together is because they're right, there is their

0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:21.239
<v Speaker 2>answer to everything, right, So what brought the offender into

0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:26.160
<v Speaker 2>the path of the victim, and the victimology is looking

0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:29.319
<v Speaker 2>at it from the victim's perspective, So who were they,

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:32.279
<v Speaker 2>what did their life look like, where did they go

0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.080
<v Speaker 2>on every single day, what were they doing on that day,

0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:37.799
<v Speaker 2>and why where were they when they cross paths with

0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:42.279
<v Speaker 2>the offender because that really informs your idea on who

0:46:42.280 --> 0:46:45.360
<v Speaker 2>the offender might be. Because, for example, if they've got a

0:46:45.440 --> 0:46:49.480
<v Speaker 2>routine every single week, and during one of those routine,

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:52.719
<v Speaker 2>things they've cross passed with the offender, will potentially the

0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:55.680
<v Speaker 2>offender's been watching them for a long time. If they

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:58.120
<v Speaker 2>did something that's completely out of their routine and cross

0:46:58.160 --> 0:47:02.319
<v Speaker 2>paths with the offender, it's unlikely that it's anything other

0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:07.399
<v Speaker 2>than an opportunistic offender that's taken advantage. So two very

0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:11.560
<v Speaker 2>different avenues for an investigation team to go down. So

0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:16.959
<v Speaker 2>victimology is just learning everything that you can about the victim.

0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:22.080
<v Speaker 1>And then invariably learning about the victim, it opens the

0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:25.560
<v Speaker 1>line of inquiry that you're looking for. We're always behind

0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:28.840
<v Speaker 1>the eight ball when we haven't identified the victim. That

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:32.600
<v Speaker 1>makes a murder investigation very hard from the outset when

0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.799
<v Speaker 1>you haven't identified the victim, because it doesn't really give

0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:41.799
<v Speaker 1>you a starting point. Personality profiles do you get into that,

0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:44.600
<v Speaker 1>like what's motivating the person that type of thing.

0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like, we do do them, and the unit used

0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:51.320
<v Speaker 2>to do them quite a lot, and they're quite academic,

0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and they're sort of saying, this is who the person is,

0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:57.799
<v Speaker 2>and they're not massively different too, like and you've got

0:47:57.800 --> 0:48:00.840
<v Speaker 2>your intel profiles with all and all that kind of stuff,

0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:04.759
<v Speaker 2>But they're adding a whole lot of richness into personality

0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:07.959
<v Speaker 2>and their relationships with people and why they have those relationships,

0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:12.880
<v Speaker 2>any mental illnesses or behaviors that might But we've found

0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:16.160
<v Speaker 2>with those profiles in and of themselves, they're not actually

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:20.839
<v Speaker 2>useful operationally in the form that they're in, but they're

0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:24.160
<v Speaker 2>really useful to inform something else. So they're really helpful

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.600
<v Speaker 2>to inform a suspect interview, for example. So what we

0:48:27.640 --> 0:48:29.719
<v Speaker 2>sort of do now is if someone comes to us saying,

0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:32.839
<v Speaker 2>can you do a personality profile, we'll say, but what

0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:35.719
<v Speaker 2>would you like it for? And we'll try and wait

0:48:35.800 --> 0:48:38.560
<v Speaker 2>it towards whatever they want it for. So if they say, oh, well,

0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:40.920
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't like as much as we know about them so

0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:43.799
<v Speaker 2>we can interview them, we'll go cool, how about we

0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:45.799
<v Speaker 2>give you some interview advice and there'll be a lot

0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:48.640
<v Speaker 2>of that personality stuff in there too, just trying to

0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:51.960
<v Speaker 2>help the investigation teams rather than just doing our thing

0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:53.360
<v Speaker 2>and giving it to them and going there.

0:48:53.200 --> 0:48:55.520
<v Speaker 3>You go, I'm I'm poor to take these as the

0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:58.839
<v Speaker 3>city there? What does it mean? Yeah?

0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:03.160
<v Speaker 2>Pronounce it? Which is still me trying to read them

0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:07.440
<v Speaker 2>so very much, trying to target what they're trying to

0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:10.400
<v Speaker 2>achieve and then working backwards. And there may be elements

0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:11.880
<v Speaker 2>of a personality profile in it.

0:49:12.400 --> 0:49:16.600
<v Speaker 1>And that could be as simple, I suppose as yeah,

0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:19.879
<v Speaker 1>this person responds well to authority or this person who

0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:23.960
<v Speaker 1>doesn't respect authority. It could be little triggers like that

0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:27.040
<v Speaker 1>that help the way that you might approach the interview.

0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. And it's looking through every little record and

0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:33.320
<v Speaker 2>you know about them because I don't know if the

0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:36.520
<v Speaker 2>AUSSI police systems are the same as ours, but they're

0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:39.359
<v Speaker 2>really skewed to all that safety information that you need

0:49:39.400 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>to know. When you have a real quick glance at it,

0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:46.759
<v Speaker 2>someone can look really really violent or really scary, But

0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:49.400
<v Speaker 2>then you look deeper and you go, well, actually, traffic

0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:51.480
<v Speaker 2>cop pulled them over last week and they were nice

0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:54.960
<v Speaker 2>as pie and complemented the police officer on their nice haircut,

0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:59.239
<v Speaker 2>and you go that is worth so much more to

0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:01.440
<v Speaker 2>if you're gonna have to go and interview this person

0:50:01.719 --> 0:50:03.080
<v Speaker 2>then at quick.

0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:07.919
<v Speaker 1>Glance, yeah, yeah, those details. Do your team go out

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:11.719
<v Speaker 1>and involve themselves in the briefings, like is it all

0:50:11.840 --> 0:50:14.360
<v Speaker 1>done one on one or do they actually attend the

0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:17.839
<v Speaker 1>briefing and explain to the investigative team.

0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've done a little bit of that. And you

0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:23.879
<v Speaker 2>get sort of put on the spot. You're getting pulled

0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:28.000
<v Speaker 2>into a major crime investigation and everyone's in there, and

0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:30.440
<v Speaker 2>I really have to just back up the truck when

0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:32.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm asked and I go, you know, you guys have

0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:35.480
<v Speaker 2>lived and breathed this investigation since it began. You know

0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:39.040
<v Speaker 2>that people far better than anyone on my team could

0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:41.719
<v Speaker 2>just by reading about them. So you've got to go

0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:43.440
<v Speaker 2>with your knowledge, and all will try and do is

0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.920
<v Speaker 2>add a few nuggets. The psychologists try and get out

0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:50.520
<v Speaker 2>when they can. They'll certainly monitor interviews and things like that,

0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:53.319
<v Speaker 2>but we're sort of just hamstrung by the fact we

0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:56.000
<v Speaker 2>get so many requests. We're really stuck in the office

0:50:56.040 --> 0:50:58.000
<v Speaker 2>just trying to deal with them all, and we'd love

0:50:58.040 --> 0:50:59.279
<v Speaker 2>to be able to get out on the ground more,

0:50:59.320 --> 0:51:02.880
<v Speaker 2>but really hard being a National team stuck in Auckland.

0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:06.240
<v Speaker 1>And I don't want to put yourself on the spot

0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:08.680
<v Speaker 1>here because you're still employed by the police, But do

0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:11.480
<v Speaker 1>you see this as a growing area? Do you think

0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:14.919
<v Speaker 1>police forces across the board, because I'm sure you're communicating

0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:19.880
<v Speaker 1>with other police forces, do you think everyone's buying into

0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:22.759
<v Speaker 1>what a unit like yours can can provide?

0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think so, And I don't you know, because

0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:30.960
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement is about people and psychology is people, so

0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:33.879
<v Speaker 2>that just makes perfect sense, right, Yeah, But I don't

0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:36.960
<v Speaker 2>know where that goes in the future because it cops

0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:40.120
<v Speaker 2>these days are far more psychologically aware than they were

0:51:40.400 --> 0:51:44.040
<v Speaker 2>when I started nineteen years ago. Yeah, your insines and

0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:47.879
<v Speaker 2>it's fantastic, and it's getting the knowledge out there and

0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:51.080
<v Speaker 2>seeding it amongst the organization and as much as we can,

0:51:51.120 --> 0:51:53.799
<v Speaker 2>we try and put out, you know, generic advice that's

0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:56.160
<v Speaker 2>helpful going forward, so that we're not getting asked the

0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:59.120
<v Speaker 2>same thing over and over again. It's like, here's this

0:51:59.200 --> 0:52:02.200
<v Speaker 2>piece of research, you can read it, and you've got

0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:05.040
<v Speaker 2>it now, so now you're armed with it. There's a

0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:08.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of that going on, So I think they'll be

0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:10.920
<v Speaker 2>buy in and that will result in a massive uptake

0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:14.680
<v Speaker 2>and just the general knowledge of investigators around human behavior

0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:17.680
<v Speaker 2>and psychology. We're seeing an increase in that anyway, and

0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:20.839
<v Speaker 2>you're getting interested in it and reading books and all

0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:23.080
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff's going on. So I don't think

0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:25.560
<v Speaker 2>that will result in our unit getting bigger, but it

0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:29.160
<v Speaker 2>will result in a general knowledge increase across the board.

0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, approach to it. Okay, Well, look, I think it's

0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:36.040
<v Speaker 1>fascinating the work that the work that you're doing. I

0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:38.960
<v Speaker 1>get the sense I'm saying this lightheartedly. You're hanging out

0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:42.000
<v Speaker 1>with psychologists enough because I can then never pin them

0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:46.280
<v Speaker 1>down to a director like a specific answer like could

0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:51.279
<v Speaker 1>be maybe yeah, maybe so, but that but that is

0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:52.880
<v Speaker 1>that is their science, isn't it.

0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:54.799
<v Speaker 3>It's not an absolute no, and.

0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:59.200
<v Speaker 2>There's exceptions for everything. So they have to they have

0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:03.160
<v Speaker 2>to look at all the research and all the experience

0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and put it together. And so you're never going to

0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:07.480
<v Speaker 2>get one hundred percent anything. And then that's where the

0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.080
<v Speaker 2>detectives come in and they go, well, it's sixty one percent.

0:53:10.120 --> 0:53:12.200
<v Speaker 2>That's so that's the one that it probably is, and

0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:15.520
<v Speaker 2>they'll go, you can't look at it like that, and

0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:18.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, so it's good to have that balance.

0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:20.719
<v Speaker 1>Is a good balance, so I think it changes it

0:53:20.840 --> 0:53:25.200
<v Speaker 1>changes dynamics having access to that sort of experience. I

0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:28.120
<v Speaker 1>want to get your thoughts on crime, and you touched

0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:32.280
<v Speaker 1>on it. But one of the things that from something

0:53:32.320 --> 0:53:34.399
<v Speaker 1>that you've written that I just want to read back

0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.799
<v Speaker 1>to you and then get your thoughts to expand on that,

0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:39.480
<v Speaker 1>and I put it under the heading of your thoughts

0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:44.040
<v Speaker 1>on crime From you, I've developed an institutionally frowned upon

0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:48.480
<v Speaker 1>empathy with offenders, not empathy necessarily with their actions, but

0:53:48.560 --> 0:53:51.400
<v Speaker 1>with them as people. How we can truly understand if

0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:54.600
<v Speaker 1>we haven't walked in those shoes. Judgment is for the courts.

0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Police can do their job right without being dicks and

0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:02.319
<v Speaker 1>starting a new cycle of prejudice already and defending. I

0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.200
<v Speaker 1>pulled that out because I think it says a lot

0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:08.560
<v Speaker 1>about your approach, and certainly, sitting down having this chat

0:54:08.600 --> 0:54:10.480
<v Speaker 1>with you, I see where it's coming from.

0:54:10.960 --> 0:54:13.479
<v Speaker 3>Do you want to just expand on what you meant

0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:15.200
<v Speaker 3>by that paragraph?

0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean nineteen years and my career hasn't been

0:54:20.719 --> 0:54:23.759
<v Speaker 2>colored by what I'd say a lot of evil. Right,

0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:27.800
<v Speaker 2>So you read about some cases and Ossie's had them.

0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Where you go, man, that really is just some next

0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:36.920
<v Speaker 2>level darkness happening there. But I've never I've never experienced

0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:40.280
<v Speaker 2>that myself, Like I've never sat across an interview table

0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:45.759
<v Speaker 2>from someone and gone, you are just one hundred percent. Yeah,

0:54:46.239 --> 0:54:50.879
<v Speaker 2>it's far more. You're a human being and you've made

0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:55.400
<v Speaker 2>some mistakes, and your toolbox for dealing with hard things

0:54:55.840 --> 0:54:59.160
<v Speaker 2>is not the same as my toolbox, and whose fault

0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:03.480
<v Speaker 2>that is? Who knows? You know, you could argue it

0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:06.160
<v Speaker 2>in one research paper and argue a different thing in another,

0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:11.120
<v Speaker 2>but by and large, you know, if someone commits a murder,

0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>they didn't wake up that morning unless they're a contract killer.

0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to kill somebody this afternoon. But it ends

0:55:18.360 --> 0:55:20.560
<v Speaker 2>up that way. And that's not at all taken away

0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:22.560
<v Speaker 2>from the fact that they've made a decision to take

0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a life and they should face the consequences of that.

0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:28.280
<v Speaker 2>But there's so much more to their life and background

0:55:28.320 --> 0:55:34.560
<v Speaker 2>than that one moment, So understanding that, recognizing it and

0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:38.400
<v Speaker 2>putting yourself there and going if I'd live their life

0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and whatever that is. And let's go down the cliche one,

0:55:42.040 --> 0:55:47.320
<v Speaker 2>which is a really difficult childhood, really difficult adolescence, victim

0:55:47.360 --> 0:55:52.240
<v Speaker 2>of all sorts, of abuse, drugs funneled into a gang

0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:54.680
<v Speaker 2>because there's nowhere else that will take care, and you

0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.840
<v Speaker 2>find a little sense of camaraderie there, not similar to

0:55:57.920 --> 0:56:00.799
<v Speaker 2>joining the army or the police or a sports team.

0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:05.560
<v Speaker 2>And then once you're there, there's that social validation aspect.

0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:07.279
<v Speaker 2>You know everyone's doing this, so I'm going to do

0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:09.200
<v Speaker 2>it too, And so you end up in a place

0:56:09.239 --> 0:56:11.279
<v Speaker 2>where you're not as well equipped as a lot of

0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:15.879
<v Speaker 2>people to deal with terrible situations. Maybe running away isn't

0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:19.120
<v Speaker 2>your default setting and someone ends up dead. Now I

0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:24.839
<v Speaker 2>can very much understand that for some people when they

0:56:24.880 --> 0:56:28.200
<v Speaker 2>take a life for them in that moment, for whatever reason,

0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:31.400
<v Speaker 2>they thought it was the right thing to do for themselves,

0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:36.200
<v Speaker 2>and wrapping our heads around that and going how is

0:56:36.200 --> 0:56:38.799
<v Speaker 2>that even possible? How could they have ever thought that

0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:41.279
<v Speaker 2>that was the right thing to do. That's the key

0:56:41.320 --> 0:56:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to it, because if you can understand that and empathize,

0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:51.520
<v Speaker 2>that makes that interview room such a more positive place

0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:56.320
<v Speaker 2>to be than the adversarial place it has been for decades.

0:56:57.000 --> 0:57:00.640
<v Speaker 2>So I guess it comes from a place of suspect

0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:05.000
<v Speaker 2>inter viewing, but trying to recognize that you know, I'm

0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:08.680
<v Speaker 2>sitting across the table from a murderer nine years old.

0:57:09.120 --> 0:57:12.680
<v Speaker 2>They weren't out killing people, so there's some element of

0:57:12.719 --> 0:57:14.799
<v Speaker 2>there's got to be some element of humanity to that, right,

0:57:14.960 --> 0:57:19.520
<v Speaker 2>and understanding that journey they've been on is crucial to

0:57:19.600 --> 0:57:22.720
<v Speaker 2>perhaps keeping that door open so you can keep the

0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:23.480
<v Speaker 2>conversation going.

0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:24.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:57:24.720 --> 0:57:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Look, I highlighted Chrispy because I wanted you to explain

0:57:28.520 --> 0:57:33.880
<v Speaker 1>that in your words. But it reinforces something that I

0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:36.520
<v Speaker 1>think I was aware of during the police but certainly

0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:39.200
<v Speaker 1>outside the police and sitting in the position I am

0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:42.440
<v Speaker 1>now speaking to people. I respect the in law enforcement,

0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:44.880
<v Speaker 1>and one of the things that carried all the way

0:57:44.920 --> 0:57:47.680
<v Speaker 1>through with all the good detectives, I knew if I

0:57:47.680 --> 0:57:50.160
<v Speaker 1>had to describe, and people think it's so strange, what's

0:57:50.160 --> 0:57:53.120
<v Speaker 1>the characteristics of the best detectives.

0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:53.080
<v Speaker 3>You've worked with?

0:57:53.760 --> 0:57:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Empathy? They all carry a heavy carry a lot of

0:57:58.280 --> 0:58:02.200
<v Speaker 1>empathy for people. They understand and when they crack the

0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:04.160
<v Speaker 1>case and people don't know what goes on in the

0:58:04.160 --> 0:58:07.120
<v Speaker 1>interview room and they think it's been aggressive, violent, it's

0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:12.320
<v Speaker 1>quite often, as you've described here, sitting down just talking

0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:16.280
<v Speaker 1>to people. And I agree very much with what you

0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:18.800
<v Speaker 1>say about just because someone does a bad thing doesn't

0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:21.720
<v Speaker 1>make them a bad person. I have seen people, and

0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:24.800
<v Speaker 1>it's a small percentage of people that I think are

0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:29.640
<v Speaker 1>pure arrovial and I've confronted them. But ninety nine percent

0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:32.760
<v Speaker 1>of the people that you deal with, yeah, they've made

0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:36.720
<v Speaker 1>a mistake, but they've got some goodness in them. And

0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:40.800
<v Speaker 1>I think it was very interesting you say here without

0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:44.280
<v Speaker 1>being dix and starting a new cycle of prejudice, disparity

0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:48.760
<v Speaker 1>and offending. Policing works best when the public like the police,

0:58:49.000 --> 0:58:52.840
<v Speaker 1>and the public support the police, and the police are

0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:56.600
<v Speaker 1>representing them. So I think things like that are important

0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:58.120
<v Speaker 1>messages to get across.

0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. Who are to decide that this person should

0:59:02.520 --> 0:59:05.640
<v Speaker 2>bear the brunt of my aggression just because they've done

0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:08.919
<v Speaker 2>something wrong, right, Like, that's not your job. Your job

0:59:09.000 --> 0:59:12.280
<v Speaker 2>is to a fact find for a court to make

0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:14.560
<v Speaker 2>a decision. And so we can take all that emotion

0:59:14.640 --> 0:59:16.520
<v Speaker 2>out of it. That's just us getting a motive going,

0:59:17.720 --> 0:59:21.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm right, You're I'm good, You're bad like Matilda,

0:59:21.840 --> 0:59:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and and that all comes out in the interview room

0:59:25.000 --> 0:59:27.440
<v Speaker 2>because we think that's what we're supposed to do, and

0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:31.360
<v Speaker 2>it's just like, that's not why we're here. We can

0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:35.040
<v Speaker 2>parkle that and atally be okay, sitting in a room

0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.280
<v Speaker 2>with someone that's done this and yeah they're not they're

0:59:38.320 --> 0:59:40.400
<v Speaker 2>not the most evil person that ever walked the earth,

0:59:40.840 --> 0:59:42.200
<v Speaker 2>and recognize them.

0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:45.959
<v Speaker 3>Well, good, good advice. We might wrap up here.

0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:49.320
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank you for the chat, and yeah,

0:59:49.480 --> 0:59:52.520
<v Speaker 1>thanks for the service that you're given to the community

0:59:52.560 --> 0:59:56.080
<v Speaker 1>over there in New Zealand, and a shout out to

0:59:56.680 --> 0:59:59.440
<v Speaker 1>people that want to join the New Zealand place, because

0:59:59.440 --> 1:00:03.280
<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate we're struggling, as I said, over here

1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:07.040
<v Speaker 1>in Australia with people joining the police and I think

1:00:07.080 --> 1:00:10.520
<v Speaker 1>exposing people to listening to someone like you, it sounds

1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:12.920
<v Speaker 1>like you've had a great, great time in your career

1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:13.880
<v Speaker 1>and you're still enjoying it.

1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

1:00:14.880 --> 1:00:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, What an organization to be a part of, right,

1:00:17.920 --> 1:00:20.440
<v Speaker 2>And what a privilege to actually be put in the

1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:22.760
<v Speaker 2>shoes that you are as a cop and interact with

1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:24.680
<v Speaker 2>the types of people that we do right, whereas you

1:00:24.760 --> 1:00:27.800
<v Speaker 2>choose any other profession you don't get that. And I

1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:31.240
<v Speaker 2>think the word privilege genuinely right. It gives you such

1:00:31.280 --> 1:00:35.080
<v Speaker 2>a good perspective on life, and we need people, we

1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:39.040
<v Speaker 2>need good people from everywhere. Yeah, so yeah, I'm glad

1:00:39.080 --> 1:00:42.720
<v Speaker 2>that our recruitment is going through a positive stage because

1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:44.479
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what we want.

1:00:44.800 --> 1:00:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you want the best of the best. Apply

1:00:47.960 --> 1:00:51.320
<v Speaker 1>and then it's a job that you should be striving

1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:51.800
<v Speaker 1>for and.

1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:52.600
<v Speaker 3>It is a privilege.

1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:55.720
<v Speaker 1>So it's always it puts a smile on my face

1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:58.480
<v Speaker 1>speaking to a cop that enjoys doing their job and

1:00:58.520 --> 1:00:59.280
<v Speaker 1>doing good work.

1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:01.120
<v Speaker 3>So thanks so much for coming on.

1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:05.280
<v Speaker 2>I catch gillers, no cheers, Gary, Absolute pleasure. Thanks very much,

1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:15.320
<v Speaker 2>m HM.