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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Detective

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Speaker 1: Senior Sergeant Chris Blake. Chris is a serving police officer

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Speaker 1: with New Zealand Police and is the manager of the

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Speaker 1: Behavioral Science Unit. Chris and his team of psychologists and

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Speaker 1: analysts provide operational support to major criminal investigations. In part one,

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Speaker 1: we got the general sense of the type of support

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Speaker 1: his team provides. In Part two, we talk in depth

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Speaker 1: about how difficult complex investigations are approached. There is a

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Speaker 1: science in the way cops go after the bad guys,

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Speaker 1: and anyone interested in true crime will enjoy this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Chris Blake, Welcome back to Part two off I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, it's great still be here.

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Speaker 1: Got to admit I do enjoy speaking to the cops

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Speaker 1: or ex cops or whatever it's. When you've been involved

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Speaker 1: in the world for a long time, it's nice to

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Speaker 1: chat to someone that understands that.

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Speaker 2: Will, Yeah, for sure. And because it's one of those

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Speaker 2: things until you actually do it, it's really to articulate

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Speaker 2: the exactly what goes on.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'll hit you up with a hard one right

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Speaker 1: at the start. You are a bit of a crime

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Speaker 1: nerd because you're also an author of a couple of

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Speaker 1: fictional crime novels, The Sound of a Voice and the

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Speaker 1: recently released Softly Calls the Devil, which I might add

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Speaker 1: the New zeal And. Harold stated about the book harrowing,

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Speaker 1: compelling and quite brilliant.

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Speaker 3: That's not bad.

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Speaker 2: Rap, it's not too bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how did you fall into that space? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Funny story that I didn't read a lot growing up.

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Speaker 2: I think Biggles and Tinton were my favorites, and they're

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Speaker 2: very much of a type, right, But wasn't a big reader,

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Speaker 2: terrible at writing. I didn't understand English. Yeah, all didn't

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Speaker 2: get it. And it wasn't until I was in the

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Speaker 2: police and I worked with this guy called Simon Wyatt

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Speaker 2: and he's a good maid of mine. Out of the blue,

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Speaker 2: he just says to me, I've written this fiction book.

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Speaker 2: And I sort of looked at him and went in

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Speaker 2: the back of my head, I'm like, that's your bucket

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Speaker 2: list thing you do when you're sixty eight, and we

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Speaker 2: try and put your novel together and hope it makes

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Speaker 2: your grand kids some money or something.

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Speaker 3: Setting that that weekend, there were overlooking the lake and

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Speaker 3: the mess as you're working away on your typewriter. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's right, with.

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Speaker 2: The knitted jumper on. And so I look at go oh, like,

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Speaker 2: what's it about? And he goes, oh, it's just a

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Speaker 2: crime fiction novel, because hey, like we're cops. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've got a lot of stories, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: can come up with a fiction plot and then so

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Speaker 2: much to them. And I thought he was nuts. I

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Speaker 2: just thought, no way, how could you compete with all

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Speaker 2: of the crime fiction that's on the shelves, and he goes, Oh,

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Speaker 2: the point of difference is we actually do it, so

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Speaker 2: we can inject a little bit of that police procedure

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Speaker 2: or stuff to the book without sort of bogging it

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Speaker 2: down too much. The idea just sort of filtered away,

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Speaker 2: and I went, all right, well, he's giving it a go.

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Speaker 2: He's far more intelligent and better looking than I'll ever be,

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Speaker 2: but I'll give it a crack. So that was the

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Speaker 2: first book was over several years. I just sort of

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Speaker 2: pieced together a story and it was very much entrenched

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Speaker 2: in meth manufacture and that organized crime sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I just watched season one of True Detective with

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Speaker 2: Matthew McConaughey.

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Speaker 3: And fantastic was its.

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Speaker 2: Brilliant piece of scene, and that sort of inspired it completely.

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Speaker 2: And that was one of the first shows i'd seen

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Speaker 2: that everything about it was just bleak and dark and sinister,

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Speaker 2: and it made me go, there's not a lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff out there like that. So that first book was

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Speaker 2: very very dark and got viewed and criticized for exactly that.

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Speaker 3: Too dark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very dark, and there's not a lot of light

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Speaker 2: moments in it. So that was sort of an early

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Speaker 2: four way into it, and then when I got round

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Speaker 2: to writing the second one, I wanted to sort of

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Speaker 2: make it a bit more marketable and yeah, a bit simpler,

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Speaker 2: and inject a lot of a bit more light and

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Speaker 2: humor into it than that first one, certainly, but so

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Speaker 2: it would start off as a hobby, I guess someone

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Speaker 2: else's idea. Now that it's turned into this, I still

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Speaker 2: still really believe it. I've only seen that. I've gone

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Speaker 2: into the book shop yesterday and I can't believe there's

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Speaker 2: a book bear with it, because I'm just an idiot

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Speaker 2: who grew up in Glenfield and Auckland.

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Speaker 3: Did you find it relaxing? Was it something that you

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Speaker 3: could relax?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't sort of bringing your work home and there's

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Speaker 1: your sitting there writing this book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is. It is good, right, and like

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Speaker 2: it's it's escapist fiction, so there is authenticity and the

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Speaker 2: police work, but the plot is you know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's something people will hopefully want to read, so I

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Speaker 2: do enjoy you can sit there and write the story

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Speaker 2: you want to write, rather than the real world, where

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Speaker 2: things often work out the way that anybody wants them

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Speaker 2: working out. So it is really good like that, and

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Speaker 2: I think being crime fiction, you know, you if you

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Speaker 2: also work in the police, to come up with the

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Speaker 2: story or two, you know, whereas I could never write

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Speaker 2: science fiction or anything like that, and to write what

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Speaker 2: you know. So like my wife would tell you that

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Speaker 2: I certainly shouldn't write near romance, but stick with what

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Speaker 2: you know and like crime fiction.

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Speaker 3: I hope you dedicated the book to your wife.

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Speaker 1: The front the Counterbalance. I had one opportunity. I was

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Speaker 1: invited to write a chapter and the fictional crime book,

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Speaker 1: and that was just a lot of different writers and

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Speaker 1: I've done nonfiction writing and played with my mind. I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting there and thinking, Okay, I've got to make this

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Speaker 1: really sick, and I'm almost like had the whiteboard out

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Speaker 1: trying to work the crime out, and then who stupid,

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Speaker 1: This is fiction.

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Speaker 3: You can take it wherever you want it.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, but I always ask, I'm always interested with

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Speaker 1: people that write that fictional crime novel. Do you know

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Speaker 1: the ending or do you just start writing and take

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Speaker 1: it where it goes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm all over the place, like I don't have

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Speaker 2: a myth at at all, because you know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: a writer by trade, so looking up the rough idea,

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Speaker 2: and for this one, it was I'm going to sit

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Speaker 2: in Hearst to New Zealand there's going to be a

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Speaker 2: murder and maybe a colt involved, and that I now

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Speaker 2: have to just start writing and I go, okay, what

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Speaker 2: would the cop do next? So I write what they

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Speaker 2: do next in real life? And then that's really boring,

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Speaker 2: so then I just have to tweak it slightly and

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Speaker 2: then it sort of goes that way now, which is

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Speaker 2: quite good. And now I've got this character. I just

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Speaker 2: kind of sit there and I go, okay, I know

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Speaker 2: what I would do, and I know what the police

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Speaker 2: should do, but what would Matt Bukennan do? And you

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Speaker 2: can kind of take me on those more fictional plot

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Speaker 2: lines that the real police wouldn't actually.

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Speaker 3: Do, wouldn't wouldn't do.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose you had to become more descriptive in

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Speaker 1: your writing because the writing I've done, the feedback I

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Speaker 1: got initially was that would be a good fact sheet Gary,

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Speaker 1: but we're trying to give people something a little bit

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Speaker 1: more descriptive. Not I arrived at seven am on the

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh of November.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: My gloves and I put another pair on and yeah,

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Speaker 2: I struggle with that too, and I probably the one

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Speaker 2: thing I try and put a lot of into my

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Speaker 2: as a realistic dialogue between between people. Yeah, that's where

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Speaker 2: policing background comes and really handy is not so much

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Speaker 2: the plot itself, but how people actually talk to each

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Speaker 2: other and how cops and people are dealt with and

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Speaker 2: spoken to. So it's rich in dialogue, which actually helps

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Speaker 2: with not being able to describe the rest of it

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Speaker 2: because it comes out in the conversations people are having.

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Speaker 2: And that's how I kind of deal with that with

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Speaker 2: no creative running background, and probably learn the most from

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Speaker 2: reading books that I didn't like and going, h, that

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Speaker 2: was a terrible way to tell that story, or people

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Speaker 2: don't talk like that to each other, and going well,

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Speaker 2: I'll never do that, and then just trying to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I understand. You mentioned the first season of

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Speaker 1: True Detectives. What I liked about that was the conversations

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Speaker 1: between the two partners that had that sense of reality

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, you're just trying to when you get

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Speaker 1: paired up as a detective and people, unless you've worked

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Speaker 1: at least you don't fully understand you can be not

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Speaker 1: even know the person, and then within you meet them,

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Speaker 1: and then you're away of that person on the most

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Speaker 1: intense experience you possibly could have. And the conversations that

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Speaker 1: flow in the police car when you're driving across the

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Speaker 1: state or wherever leading into the jobs are quite intense.

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Speaker 1: But I like the subtlety of the way they delivered

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Speaker 1: that because it was very real to me.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was incredibly well done right. And when I

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Speaker 2: think back now on that show, and I've watched that

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Speaker 2: season so many times, but still the memory that crops

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Speaker 2: up is them both just sitting in a car driving somewhere.

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Speaker 2: It's so realistic to portray it that at the start

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Speaker 2: they both just hate each other, you know, and do

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Speaker 2: some horrible things to each other throughout the court thing.

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Speaker 2: And I hope, I don't want to blow this for

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Speaker 2: anyone that's going to watch this and then watch the show.

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Speaker 2: But there's that beautiful moment where they i'd say beautiful

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Speaker 2: from a fictional TV perspective, where Matthew McConaughey really covers

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Speaker 2: what he Harrelson's ass and despite everything that's happened between

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Speaker 2: the two of them, you know, he's still there when

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Speaker 2: it counts. And then their relationship in the aftermath. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's the most realistic part is if you

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Speaker 2: work alongside someone, you go to some pretty tragic, horrific things,

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Speaker 2: and that just instantly builds a bond that you know,

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Speaker 2: you know you can bring that person years from now.

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Speaker 2: And I still do it around the country. People have

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Speaker 2: worked with work in different areas and it's like you're

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Speaker 2: just you're sitting having a beer with them, like and

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Speaker 2: you might not have seen them for ten years. It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it captured the intensity but also the subtlety

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Speaker 1: of what happens in that police car when two people

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Speaker 1: are put together that might be pole or opposites, but

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Speaker 1: they've got to work together for a common good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's quite interesting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, off the fiction, let's get back into your unit.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's fair to say that the way

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Speaker 1: that we approach criminal investigations talking criminal investigations, there's a

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Speaker 1: tepic approach and breaking that down, we're looking at deductive

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Speaker 1: reasoning that comes into an investigation. These are the type

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Speaker 1: of things that detectives come to you to sort of

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Speaker 1: when I say deductive reasoning, is that something that you

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Speaker 1: can offer investigators like advice that you give them on

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Speaker 1: the way to approach it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, so the psychologists on the team can do that.

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Speaker 2: They so that unknown offender profiling, which I guess is

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Speaker 2: original criminal profiling that all units do. There isn't a

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Speaker 2: lot of that these days because we often catch our

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Speaker 2: murderers pretty quickly twenty century CCTV, telephones, cell phones, polling,

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Speaker 2: dash cans, all sorts of stuff going on for end,

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Speaker 2: not to mention forensics. So there's a murder and usually

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Speaker 2: within within hours, the majority of murders are solved and

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Speaker 2: someone's been arrested. Those cases from the sixties, seventies, and

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Speaker 2: eighties that fueled a lot of what the FBI did.

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Speaker 2: Those serial killers that got away with it for so long.

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Speaker 2: That drove that unknown offender profiling, which is the genesis

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Speaker 2: of some of our units. Not a lot of it

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Speaker 2: these days, but they still do do it, usually for

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Speaker 2: cold cases, for unsolved historical homicides. And Yeah, so they'll

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Speaker 2: do a crime analysis, which sounds very similar to like

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Speaker 2: a crime scene examination, except they're very much looking at

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Speaker 2: it from that offender behavior perspective. So rather than going, okay,

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Speaker 2: he broken through that window, he went over there, he

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Speaker 2: opened the drawer, left his fingerprints. He tossed that over here.

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Speaker 2: He took that because it's missing, because we've usked the

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Speaker 2: owner of what's missing, and he's walked over there. They

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Speaker 2: do have that in there, but they're going, why did

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Speaker 2: he break him through that window? Where had he been

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Speaker 2: before that? How did he know that windows even there?

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Speaker 2: That means he must have been watching from somewhere. Where

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Speaker 2: would he be watching from? Is that high risk or

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Speaker 2: is that low rist behavior? If it's somewhere where it'll

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Speaker 2: be incredibly high risk to watch that window, then this

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Speaker 2: is the kind of person or personality we're looking at.

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Speaker 2: Versus if it's a low risk thing, you're probably looking

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Speaker 2: somewhere else. And we can see when I see the

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Speaker 2: sites on the team do this, you know you're blown

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Speaker 2: away by how how logical it is. Yeah, at the

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Speaker 2: same time something I could never do. Ye, And it's

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Speaker 2: all based on their both academic and practical experience as

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Speaker 2: psychologists before they came into the team.

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting way to put it.

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Speaker 1: It's got that combination, hasn't it That that's what a

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Speaker 1: good criminal psychologist, That the type that I was fascinated

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Speaker 1: and speaking to Nathan from your team. But that's they've

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Speaker 1: got the practical experience with the academic qualifications, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would you've just thrown yourself on the sword there,

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Speaker 1: I frow myself on the sword. Sometimes I'd be sitting

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Speaker 1: there and thinking, yeah, of course it's fairly obvious, and

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Speaker 1: I'd be walking way making notes going why didn't I

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Speaker 1: think of that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, the FBI and the eighties, they're

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Speaker 2: talking to offenders and it was Pooperter's witchcraft for so long,

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Speaker 2: but so much research and science done since that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: is an academic discipline and yeah, just the knowledge that

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Speaker 2: they have is incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and a good psychologist also draws on the experience

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Speaker 1: of an experienced police officer.

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Speaker 3: So that's a combination of skills that they have.

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Speaker 1: So I've just got a list of the type of

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Speaker 1: things that your unit, how they support the investigators, and

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Speaker 1: I just work through a few of them that I

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Speaker 1: want to want to talk about. Suspect prioritization. Now, from

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Speaker 1: a detective's point of view, that's always a hard thing

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Speaker 1: to do. Where do you start when a crime has happened.

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Speaker 1: Depending on the crime, you might have hundreds of suspects

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Speaker 1: and how do you prioritize which suspect?

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Speaker 3: What does your you that bring to detectives that turn

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Speaker 3: up there.

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Speaker 1: And I'll use examples of you know, when the child disappears,

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Speaker 1: who's in the area at the time, who was known

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Speaker 1: to the child, when was the child last scene alive?

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Speaker 1: Who becomes a suspect? How do you work through the prioritization.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so we do mainly in the sexual space.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, this example is going to be really it's

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Speaker 2: going to sound like it's one oh one, but it

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Speaker 2: obviously far more complicated than this. But you know, if

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Speaker 2: you have a case where an intruder is disturbed at

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Speaker 2: the foot of someone's bed, you know, and then they

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Speaker 2: leg it, and that's what you're facing. You know, when

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Speaker 2: you look at that from an evidential perspective, you go, well,

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Speaker 2: he broke and he stood at the bed and then

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Speaker 2: he left. He didn't take anything, But we've got a burglary.

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Speaker 2: That's the way it'll be coded, and that's the way

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Speaker 2: it'll be treated, and they'll be looking for a burglar

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Speaker 2: and then if it comes to us, we'll go we'll

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Speaker 2: hang on a minute, or why didn't he take anything?

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Speaker 2: And why was he standing at the foot of the bed,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to say that this is a sexually

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Speaker 2: motivated crime, So we need to be looking for a

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Speaker 2: sexual offender or at least somebody who has that sexual

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Speaker 2: fantasy element to what they've done. And so we're looking

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Speaker 2: at a history of sexual offending. Maybe some burglary, but

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Speaker 2: that sexual part is far more important. So our suspect

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Speaker 2: priority list would be very geared towards you know, devancies,

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Speaker 2: you know, voyeurism, stealing clothes, off lines, that stuff would

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Speaker 2: be way more important than someone who's got a massive

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Speaker 2: history of breaking into houses and taking money. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. So that would be Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: how they sort of go about that is what have

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Speaker 2: we actually got, What does that mean for the offender?

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Speaker 2: And therefore, what does their background look like, because that's

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Speaker 2: going to help inform that priority suspect list, is their

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Speaker 2: background and who they were before this moment in time.

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Speaker 1: And giving that perspective on it allows because then you've

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Speaker 1: got to prioritize who you're targeting first, like from the police,

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Speaker 1: who you're targeting, like eliminating that suspect list, the smaller

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Speaker 1: suspect list. If you're on the right track is better

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Speaker 1: than having a large one. So I understand what you're

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Speaker 1: saying there. And for the experience, that would okay, it's

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Speaker 1: just a break in that could have been anyone. But

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Speaker 1: the breaking where someone wakes up and someone's standing the

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Speaker 1: end of the bed in the bedroom at night, that's

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Speaker 1: to an experienced person I suppose saying, well, there's a

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Speaker 1: warning there that person was what was he's doing in there?

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Speaker 3: What was motivating?

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Speaker 2: That's right exactly. And you know even where the houses, right,

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Speaker 2: so you know that happens, and a lot of people

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Speaker 2: will go, well, it could have been anyone. You go,

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Speaker 2: hang on, that's the third house back down the driveway

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Speaker 2: you can't driving past. So no, this isn't just anyone.

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Speaker 2: This would have been incredibly high risk for somebody to

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Speaker 2: just be wandering around doing this like that's not what

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Speaker 2: these types of offenders do. So it's got to be

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Speaker 2: somebody local who or lives in the area or frequently

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Speaker 2: in that area to actually even know there's a house

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Speaker 2: down there with someone in it. That then is the

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Speaker 2: genesis for this crime. So that shrinks your geographical search

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Speaker 2: as well, right, and so all of that comes into

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Speaker 2: it as well. And there are things that at first

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Speaker 2: glance you just go, this is need on the haystack.

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Speaker 2: We're you ever going to get anywhere.

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Speaker 1: But it's a way of way of trimming things down

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Speaker 1: the crime scene. In that analyst at the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: do you look at the crime scene if a murder's happened,

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Speaker 1: do your psychologists have a look and go, okay, what

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Speaker 1: have we got here? The obvious one is if someone

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Speaker 1: has been their face has been attacked, the general consensus

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Speaker 1: is okay, well it was something personal. It's not always

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Speaker 1: a case in my experience, as I say it, but

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Speaker 1: there's things that you can tell from a crime scene.

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Speaker 1: From a detect this point of view, I'd look at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene and think, okay, well the weapon had

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Speaker 1: been available at the location, so perhaps they didn't turn

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Speaker 1: up with the intent to murder. If a weapon's been introduced,

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Speaker 1: they've come there with the intent to murder. Little things

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Speaker 1: like that give me some examples of what your team

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Speaker 1: might provide when the cops or the detectives turn up

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Speaker 1: and go, this is what we found at the crime scene.

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Speaker 3: How do they break that down?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, and they do go out when they can.

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Speaker 2: We're based in Auckland, so unfortunately Auckland gets a lot

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Speaker 2: of use out of us. Yeah, it doesn't cost any

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Speaker 2: money to walk out the door. The rest of the

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Speaker 2: country sort of messes out on that.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you're still in the place.

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Speaker 2: So as much as they can, Yeah, and Serena, the

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Speaker 2: two psychologists on the team, will get out on the

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Speaker 2: ground if there's an unsolved case, and even the solved ones,

378
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Speaker 2: they'll get out and look at the scenes. And to

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Speaker 2: be fair, they're probably not doing it so much from

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Speaker 2: a It's not like some of the shows on TV

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Speaker 2: where they walk in and they're like aha, and all

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Speaker 2: the detectives have no idea, So help frame it in

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Speaker 2: their heads so that then when they write the report

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Speaker 2: they have actually they've seen how far away A is

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Speaker 2: from B. All that kind of good stuff. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that real basic level, it's understanding what drives whatever the

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Speaker 2: particular offenses and then being able to go, well, this

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Speaker 2: is this kind of offense. So that example you just

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Speaker 2: gave Gary, you know, about a violent homicide. If you

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Speaker 2: walk into a house and there's just blood and bits

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Speaker 2: and pieces absolutely everywhere in six different rooms, you know,

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Speaker 2: like that is that's if we're not talking some sort

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Speaker 2: of major mental struggle or psychosis or nations or something.

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Speaker 2: You know, that is that's anger, and that is emotion,

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Speaker 2: you know, so that is unlikely to be a complete

396
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Speaker 2: stranger because an emotion of personal things so huge sweeping

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Speaker 2: generalization for those really violent scenes, if that's not organized

398
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Speaker 2: crime related for a purpose, generally somebody that's known to

399
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Speaker 2: the whereas the other end of the spectrum is more

400
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Speaker 2: the other way. So when it's I don't like to

401
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: use the word cleaner, but less frenzied, less all over

402
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Speaker 2: the place, less anger involved in it, you know, that

403
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Speaker 2: would be more along that sort of serial offender, fantasy driven,

404
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Speaker 2: purpose driven offending where the offenders are getting something out

405
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Speaker 2: of it. So that's that whole organized verse. Disorganized offender,

406
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Speaker 2: cleaner crime scene, organized planned, thought about blood everywhere, disorganized,

407
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Speaker 2: didn't plan it got out, three things got out of hand,

408
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Speaker 2: and now we have this all out of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And those type of things are what generate the

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Speaker 1: discussion in the briefing room when you're looking at trying

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Speaker 1: to work out what's happened, and it's create case theories

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Speaker 1: or directions of the people you're looking for. I always

413
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Speaker 1: found a lot I could tell by the way the

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Speaker 1: body was disposed of that that's always a good indicator.

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Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally right. Again, unless you're suffering under some major

417
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Speaker 2: mental illness, no matter what's just gone down, disposing of

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Speaker 2: a body has got to be it's something I can't

419
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Speaker 2: wrap my head around. Like what we're going through your

420
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Speaker 2: head at the time. I'm imagining a lot of panic,

421
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Speaker 2: a lot of stress, and a lot of anxiety. And yeah,

422
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: the whole time. If you're trying to avoid law enforcement

423
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: is going to guide you a lot. But if you

424
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Speaker 2: had a close relationship with this person you've just killed,

425
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Speaker 2: that's going to dictate a lot of how you go

426
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Speaker 2: about things, too right. And that's where you know, if

427
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Speaker 2: it was a close ex partner and then there's a dismemberment,

428
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Speaker 2: for example, all those things go into it too right.

429
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Speaker 2: The panic and stress has obviously overtaken the other emotions

430
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Speaker 2: through that. But if the body's just left where it is,

431
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Speaker 2: that's more like a well, I just fucked up in

432
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Speaker 2: a major way, But the police are going to come

433
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Speaker 2: and get me, and I'm going to leave them there

434
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: because they need to be dealt with properly, you know,

435
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: So we and usually we haven't had the serial killer thing,

436
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: unlike Ossie and the States. And I don't know whether

437
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: that's geographically because we're small jurisdiction. We certainly have people

438
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: in prison. I'm sure that may well have gone on

439
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: and killed again, but they get picked up after their

440
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: first murder. So we don't have a lot of experience

441
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: in that serial murderer space where you'd start to see

442
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 2: staging of bodies and all that kind of stuff, or

443
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: a pattern to the disposal.

444
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you see, I see a lot of panic

445
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 1: in the way the bodies are disposed of, and that

446
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: quite often tells tells me a lot. You know, where

447
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: the body has been half buried, and that people clearly

448
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: didn't have the have the intent for the murder to happen,

449
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: that something's happened, and they're panic because you talked about

450
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: the trauma of disposing of a body. So many people

451
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: that I've come across during the time as a homicide

452
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: detective that it's just it's horrifies them that they've killed

453
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: or kill the person, and quite often that it wasn't

454
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: their intent, but it's just evolved or a moment lapse

455
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: of and it's confronting for people, and they quite often

456
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: panic in the way they respond immediately after.

457
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people are I mean, everyone's inherently lazy, right,

458
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: Like everyone by design is looking for the path of

459
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 2: least resistance. What's the easiest way to achieve the aim here?

460
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 2: And body disposal? Is that? Right? All the research that

461
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: up as I've got to get rid of this, what's

462
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: the easiest way to do that. I'm not going to

463
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: take any risks and drive thousands of miles with a

464
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: body in my car. I'm going to go somewhere I

465
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: know that's secluded. How am I going to do this?

466
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: I'm not going to spend eight hours, yeah, digging twelve

467
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: meters down. I'm going to do this in the simplest

468
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: way possible to try and sort it out. And so

469
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: that guides a lot of that body disposal stuff that

470
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: the psychologist st is that the path of least resistance,

471
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: where's the obvious secluded location. Whereas the you know, you're

472
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 2: not going to drag a body through a heavy jungle

473
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: for a kilometer that's too hard. You're not going to

474
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: drag it up hill that's too hard. You're going to

475
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: go downhill less trees places like that because people are

476
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: generally lazy.

477
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: Well, I had someone that we're searching for a body

478
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: that he disposed of, and he indicated he'd gone that

479
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: far into the bush. And this was years later when

480
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: we're trying to recover the body. And where he first

481
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: showed this, where he believed he buried the body. It

482
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: was in the National Park. It was a long way

483
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: into the bush. And two I should take credit, but

484
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: I can't. It was Sarah's idea. We put a manequin

485
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: body in the back in the boot of a car,

486
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: drove down to the location in the middle of the

487
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: night at the same time that he disposed of the body.

488
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: And when we got there, we hadn't told him we

489
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: had this. It was what the rescue squad used to

490
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: train the carry people out of fires and different things.

491
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: So it weighed about eighty kilos, had the composure of

492
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: a body, had it in the boot of the car,

493
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: and said, okay, we popped the boot.

494
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: Look in the boot of the car.

495
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: We want you to demonstrate how you drag that drag

496
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: the body that far. He was surprised by that, and

497
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: on that basis he sort of wound back and thought, Okay,

498
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: maybe I didn't go one hundred and fifty meters in

499
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: the bush. Maybe it was only thirty meters that changed

500
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: the area where we were searching. But that's the panic

501
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: of people trying to dispose of the body. Another thing

502
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: that I see you do, and this is a big

503
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: issue in criminal investigation in homicide, is the equivocal death review,

504
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: determining whether this death is misadventure, if it's an accident,

505
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: or is it murder. Do your people help out on

506
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: that as.

507
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, for sure, And more and more lately, there

508
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: have been a couple of high profile cases in the

509
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: meat recently, and so that's generating a bit of interest there.

510
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: So we are getting more and more requests when there's

511
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 2: you know, when it appears to be a suicide, they

512
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 2: will reach out to us. And that's one of those

513
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 2: areas where I'm so glad that it's the psychologist doing

514
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: that stuff, because you know, and you'll be the same

515
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: garrier you go to. So many tragic suicides in the police.

516
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: So many of them are in ambiguous circumstances or you go, man,

517
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: that's so tragic that that person had to decide that

518
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: that was the way out for them. And there are

519
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 2: so many variations of it that I can't even a

520
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: picture of being able to be academically experienced enough to say, well,

521
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: actually this is indicative of this, that or the other thing.

522
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: But there is so much research and it's all just

523
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: based on the research overseas, right is things found in

524
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: this way indicators that maybe a few more questions should

525
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: be asked or a few more conducted, and so it's

526
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: all it's very academic based on research of similar cases

527
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: with similar things. And yeah, there was the recent case

528
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: here in New Zealand Pauline Hannah died and her husband

529
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: was acquitted at trial, and that's progressing through the coronial stage,

530
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: as happens with everything like that, and so that's raised

531
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: the interest in that equivocal death space. So Nathan Nathan's

532
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: doing a lot of work in that space for us.

533
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: But it's a really hard one. It's just so you know,

534
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: it's one of those cases you don't know what, you

535
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: don't know, how do you know where you're going with that?

536
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: And if it's broken down and not talking specific cases,

537
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: but if it's broken down that okay, death's happened, that

538
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: it's unnatural, but was it suicide or wasn't a suicide,

539
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: they were the most difficult ones. I was called out

540
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: to his homicide whether when I was on the teams, Yeah,

541
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: called out that I prefer I know this is a murder.

542
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to put the effort into it. It's simpler

543
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: to solve when the first part of it are we

544
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: even dealing with a murder here, That can be very,

545
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: very difficult. So that type of input I think we

546
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: used to seek on the rare occasions, I think, and

547
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: I might be using the wrong terminology, but it was

548
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: a psychological autopsy in dissecting, dissecting the person, did they

549
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: have that predisposition for committing suicide? Where they indicators that

550
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: type of thing that I found helpful. Invariably they were

551
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: used more so at the coronial inquests and the murder trials.

552
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And yeah, that's the right terminology. So the

553
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: psychological is the syches will do those often for our

554
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: critical incidents, which is usually when somebody's died during a

555
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: police during police and they'll do those, and again it's

556
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: to inform the coronial side of things, is to stitch

557
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: together the behavior of the person and the lead up

558
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: to that event to hopefully try and figure a few

559
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: things out and maybe prevent a few things in the future,

560
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: but that an equivocal depth, pretty much the same, same,

561
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: very similar, trying to work out the steps leading up

562
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: to it. And does this look the way it looks? Yeah,

563
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: for a reason that's strange or just because crazy things happen,

564
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: and people of.

565
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: People linking crimes, do they help help with that?

566
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: Like again with and we we don't have had the

567
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: backpack of Ivan Malatt murders. We had the granny killers,

568
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: We've had a few others, but we don't have a

569
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: whole spate of serial killers. But I've worked on matters

570
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: where we're trying to link crimes and what I what

571
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: I struggled with this crime has three children that were murdered,

572
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: that what was a motivation and the different ages in

573
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: the in the children, different sexes in the in the children.

574
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: And I was looking at it from a we got

575
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: we've got a serial killer. Here is this person motivated

576
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: because he wants to kill people, whether the age of

577
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: the child or the sex of the child. And what

578
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: again with Sarah, she came, she did a report on

579
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: it that the person was driven by sexually motivated in

580
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: that he wasn't killing the people for the sake of

581
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: killing the people. He was driven by a sexual motivation

582
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: to if I kill this person, I can have sex

583
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: with that person. There was a sexual motivation to it.

584
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: For years, I worked on that, and I always struggled

585
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: when I was having high level meetings with legal people

586
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: in the game. But yeah, what are we saying here?

587
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: What was the motivation for these three crimes being linked?

588
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: And then it became very apparent when Sarah broke it

589
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: down that Hobot the motivation wasn't to murder people. The

590
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: motivation was sexual gratification, and he was prepared to kill

591
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: for that sexual gratification. And I thought that was interesting

592
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: how the crimes were linked that way.

593
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much. So. Yeah, so that's what they add

594
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: to it, is that victimology stuff is so such a

595
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: massive chunk of it to working out the motivations of

596
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: the offender. And often, you know, as detectives, we don't

597
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: look at that as much as perhaps we should. But yeah,

598
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: if you've got three people dead, Yeah, it's not necessarily

599
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: someone just loves killing. There might be a specific reason

600
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: why each one of the three are killed. This one

601
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: was a sexual motivation, but then the other two you know,

602
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: you're talking about destroying evidence or getting rid of witnesses.

603
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: You know, that's a differentation that can completely color the investigation.

604
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: But most of the linkage for us is that lower

605
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: level sexual offending, so the indecent assaults, the touching people

606
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: on buses, assaulting, assaulting people in parks. And it is

607
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: amazing to see the behavioral analysts because that's their gam

608
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: rather than the psychologists. You know, if we have a

609
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: stranger sexually offend and a park and Towering a they

610
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: can look through their but behavioral database. They know exactly

611
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: what they're looking for and based on how the offender

612
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: went about this crime yesterday, they can pull out all

613
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: these cases from years gone by and go, actually, you're

614
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: looking for this guy because he did the same thing

615
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: in Dunedin two years ago. And they can nominate a

616
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: suspect straight away, and then tower will go, well, that's

617
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: Manny actually lives in Towering and now and we'll go, whoa,

618
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: that's a surprise, and then they'll go through the evidential

619
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: identification process with the victim to get there. So it's

620
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: incredible to see them and the rest of our police

621
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: systems can't do it. They don't search behavior the same

622
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: way that our unit can with our database.

623
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: Do they use by class?

624
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: Is that that's exactly what they use.

625
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's what we've got over here as well.

626
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah.

627
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: So Canadian system and yeah, it's incredible. I'm still figuring

628
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: out how to use it. It would be quite bright to

629
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: use it. Yeah, so they can.

630
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: It's great to be the manager of this unit. By

631
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: the sounds of it, they can. They can surround yourself

632
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: with good people. Chris, you'll be fine. One will no

633
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 1: one will realize you're the fake.

634
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 2: The terrible thing is they all know. But they can

635
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: link the Yeah, if there's an offender that's you know,

636
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: if he's in the system before for doing it and

637
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: he's been convicted, then they can nominate the suspect. Often

638
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: they're link crimes together. And this is where it would

639
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: come in handy for Thompson and Rewa. The districts might

640
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: not know who the offender is, but the unit can

641
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: go Actually, you've got a serial offender here. You've got

642
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: a guy that's done this nine times in the last

643
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: two years in the same park, and you guys haven't

644
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: picked it up because there's enough space between each one

645
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: that people just forget or they don't look back. I

646
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: don't think they're connected, but it's the same person. And

647
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: then we can generate a little bit of resource by

648
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: going to the district commander and saying you've actually got

649
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: a serial offender. Might want to inject some resource there

650
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 2: when they can pile a team on it to actually

651
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: look at it, which can often be all you need

652
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: to uncover an offender when no one else was previously

653
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 2: looking at it and giving those timing windows and all

654
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. So even when they don't can't

655
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: nominate an offender, it's really helpful to link those things

656
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: together and hey, Wellington, you might want to paw some

657
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: resources into.

658
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: This well, And that's the thing we haven't touched on here.

659
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: With cerial offenders, the fact is you're trying to be

660
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: proactively prevent further crimes from occurring. So the mention just

661
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: your unit being able to carry the weight that yeah,

662
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: you're looking at the potential cereal offender here. That's going

663
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: to attract more resources because the people in position to

664
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: allocate the resources can't ignore the fact that more crimes

665
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: might be committed unless proper resources are put on the case.

666
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's risk, isn't It's like they're going

667
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: to keep doing this, Yeah, find them and stop them there, right,

668
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: there is the motivation.

669
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay.

670
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: Interviewing approaches we talked in part one about whether they

671
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: kick the door in at six am with the sledgehammer

672
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: and start yelling, or whether you pick up the phone

673
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: and invite the person to come in. What sort of

674
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: help do you guys provide with interview plants or the

675
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: way they approach And is it the stick or the carrot?

676
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: Which which way is going to best suit the circumstances.

677
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean overwhelmingly it's that rapport based approach as

678
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: most of the advice we give, and then that's that's

679
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: tailored to the individual based on their life experiences and

680
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: things like that. The psychologists do advise on those ones

681
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: where there is a mental health issue there, you know,

682
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: if it's got something going on. Yeah, they'll give that

683
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: advice because they'll say, well, this personality needs maybe a

684
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: little bit more direct questioning because they're not going to

685
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: understand it otherwise, all that sort of safeguard stuff they'll do.

686
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 2: And then myself and then will just give the general advice.

687
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 2: But it's overwhelmingly or based an empathetic For most cases,

688
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 2: I've never I've never known a really harsh adversarial interview

689
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: approach to result in an admission of truth. That happens, right,

690
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: but there's always probably another reason behind it. Either the

691
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: suspect was always going to admit it, or the weight

692
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: of the evidence was so overwhelming that they decide to

693
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: admit it. But it's generally not because if the police

694
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: interview as being a real dick, they're probably not going

695
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: to sit there and go, man, I really appreciate the

696
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: way you're treating me. I'm going to tell you the

697
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: truth is not a lot cool thought process for anybody,

698
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: So that empathetic approach is far more likely to not

699
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 2: resulting in admission. It's about keeping them in the room,

700
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 2: happy to be there talking to you, and the more

701
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: conversation you can have with them, the far more likely

702
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: it is that you're going to end up trusting each

703
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: other enough to actually start talking about something even remotely

704
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: close to what the truth is.

705
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have a fender leakage too.

706
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: If you have a conversation long enough, invariably something is

707
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: something that slips out that they were trying to trying

708
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: to keep away and just in the conversation they lose

709
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: it because spinning a lie or a yarm or denying

710
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: something that you've done is hard. If the conversation is

711
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: going for a long time.

712
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: That's right, and you know, want to shoot yourself in

713
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: the foot too. If the person sitting across from you

714
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with it, well, you don't want

715
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: to create the next generation of people who are going

716
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: to hate the police, because if you're treating them that

717
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: way and they've got nothing to do with it, or

718
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: even if they do, well, I'd walk away hating the

719
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: police as well. So no matter no matter what the circumstance,

720
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 2: just being normal and treating them with a bit of respect,

721
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: you can't really go wrong. And if they're always going

722
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: to deny it, well then they probably always would and

723
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: there's not much the bat approaches.

724
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: Quite often I have discussions or had discussions who's the

725
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: best person to be in the interview room with and

726
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: you look at the person. Do they respect authority or

727
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: someone experience or you're better off sending a junior police

728
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: officer in male female is often a different combination. Sometimes

729
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: it's much better to send the female detect event to

730
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: do the interviewing. Is that sort of thing discussed with

731
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: the unit with the interview planning, Yeah, a little bit.

732
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: The psychologists get pretty heavy on that, and they can

733
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: give some pretty good steers to an investigation team. But

734
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: I try and temper that a little bit, because yeah,

735
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: I'm a passionate believer in that. You know, anybody should

736
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: be able to do an interview, and if all you're

737
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: trying to do is generate that rapport, well, if you're

738
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: a detective, you should be able to step into an

739
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: interview room and have a conversation with someone. So often

740
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: it's as nuanced as who's the type of person that

741
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: can probably has the closest life journey to this person

742
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: that we're actually trying to You know, if somebody, if

743
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: the person you're interviewing has got kids, well let's make

744
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: sure the detective that's interviewing them has kids, because they

745
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 2: talk of children, they can genuinely talk about their own

746
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: if they're comfortable doing that to whatever detailed level they're comfortable, right,

747
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: because then building that common ground, So trying to find

748
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: the interviewer that can have that natural common ground rather

749
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 2: than trying to make it up or or pretend. It's

750
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: probably the most useful thing. So totally depends on the

751
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: suspect what they've done. But yeah, just someone in the

752
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: room that can actually sit there and have a conversation

753
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: about similar type things that they might be interested in

754
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,399
Speaker 2: or can relate in some way.

755
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 3: Do you are the detectives buying into this? More and more?

756
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: Still resistance because some of the old school why do

757
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: we need these doctors in I'm not going to have

758
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: a psychologist or whatever you call them in the interview

759
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: room or advising mate get out of here.

760
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: There was that resistance.

761
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: I would imagine that it's changing and people are seeing

762
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: the benefits of it.

763
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And I think part of that's down to

764
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: the approach, right if you know, if you didn't come

765
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: there and say, you know, this is how you should

766
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: do it, or what you know, what you do is

767
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: bad and this is good, and I'm going to teach

768
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: you how to do this differently, totally the wrong way

769
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: to get by in anything. Yeah, so we more sort

770
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: of go you know, there's always been great interviewers, you

771
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: know history, They've been fantastic interviewers. No one's and no

772
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: one's created anything new by saying interviews should be report based,

773
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: all that is is putting a label on all.

774
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: Of the good interviewers we're doing all that time.

775
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: That's right. So that's how we frame it as we say,

776
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: you've done plenty of good work. Here's a word for

777
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 2: the good stuff you've done. This is why it works,

778
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: and so do that and that you're giving yourself the

779
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: best opportunity. And they'll go, Okay, that makes sense because

780
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: everyone's had conversations either inside the police or out inside

781
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: to relate it to that and say that is how

782
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: you need to be talking to this person. You know

783
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: how to do it, you're great at it. That's what

784
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: this is called. And do that in there, rather than

785
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: saying here's a whole new style of interviewing, which no

786
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: one's doing, because that's just not the case. People have

787
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: been still and are doing it.

788
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: I think that where I've seen some interviews fail is

789
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: where people try to do something then it's not natural

790
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: for them to Like I've seen people get stuck, and

791
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: it's not through lack of effort that they're trying. They've

792
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: seen someone that's got an interview style like this and

793
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: they want to adopt that, but it doesn't come across

794
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: the same way. If Joe's doing it instead of Peter's

795
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: doing it, you know.

796
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 3: It's completely different. So mistakes made there.

797
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: But again and clearly your guys are on song with it,

798
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: not coming in and telling this grumpy old detective, look,

799
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: you've got to ask him this. They're not writing out

800
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: the questions. They're just suggesting an approach.

801
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: It's entirely Yeah, we're not doing the interview plan or

802
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: any of that. We're just saying this is how I

803
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: go about doing this.

804
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: Yet well, and people are starting to become more aware

805
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: because I remember very early with our psychologists that we're

806
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: using at work. Initially they thought, oh that must be

807
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: for people who are suffering post traumatic stress. Didn't comprehend

808
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: us to enhance investigations.

809
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: And they are approached, do you want to interview this suspect,

810
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: as in they've got this miracle, like the psychologists is

811
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: just going to walk in and oh, yeah, leave it

812
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 3: with me, I'll interview the suspect. So I think we

813
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 3: are becoming more more aware of it.

814
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: Another thing that you do, which is I think this

815
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: is a pressure a part risk assessment of offenders. So yeah,

816
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that might be on bail issues and different

817
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: things like that. Is that come into play reports for.

818
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: The Yeah, mainly around so a lot of those gray

819
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: zones like stalking and things like that, but definitely sexual offenders.

820
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: So investigators and the courts all want to know, is

821
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: this person going to do it again? You know, can

822
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: we release them on bail or is that a risk

823
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: to the public or was this a one off that

824
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with the wider public. So the

825
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: psychologists will support those and just give their independent opinion,

826
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: so it can go one way or the other. So

827
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: definitely or in the sexual space. Sometimes in the family

828
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: violence space, well, very similar stuff. You know, is this

829
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: person at risk if the offender is out on bail

830
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 2: or is this not something that's going to carry on?

831
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 2: But then yeah, Ever since christ Church in twenty nineteen,

832
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: the national security environment, yeah, has really overtaken a lot

833
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: of the work that the unit does. So a lot

834
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 2: of risk assessments in that counter terrorism grievance fueled violence

835
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: space to be able to help the investigation teams go,

836
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 2: is this person that's saying all the stuff actually going

837
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: to come through all that stuff?

838
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, and that is an area of concern as

839
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: we I think we touched on in part one about ideology,

840
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: when does the ideology become put into practice their thoughts.

841
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: That's concerning We've talked about victimology and the important of victimology,

842
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: just to explain to people what that's about. If someone's

843
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: been murdered, what what are we looking at with victimology? Like,

844
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: I know how important it is, and that's probably the

845
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: first thing we're looking at when we attended a murder scene.

846
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: What's your your your take on victimology and the importance

847
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: of that to a criminal investigation.

848
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I means particularly when the offender is a stranger, right,

849
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 2: that's when that's when that really comes into it because

850
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: and you've got to be really careful talking about not

851
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 2: confusing it with victim blaming. Completely different, And it's a

852
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: shame because when sometimes we talk about victimology, it can

853
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 2: come across that way, which is completely not the way

854
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: it's intended. It's about trying to work out what brought

855
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: the two together is because they're right, there is their

856
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: answer to everything, right, So what brought the offender into

857
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: the path of the victim, and the victimology is looking

858
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: at it from the victim's perspective, So who were they,

859
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: what did their life look like, where did they go

860
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: on every single day, what were they doing on that day,

861
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: and why where were they when they cross paths with

862
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: the offender because that really informs your idea on who

863
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: the offender might be. Because, for example, if they've got a

864
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: routine every single week, and during one of those routine,

865
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: things they've cross passed with the offender, will potentially the

866
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: offender's been watching them for a long time. If they

867
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: did something that's completely out of their routine and cross

868
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 2: paths with the offender, it's unlikely that it's anything other

869
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 2: than an opportunistic offender that's taken advantage. So two very

870
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: different avenues for an investigation team to go down. So

871
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,959
Speaker 2: victimology is just learning everything that you can about the victim.

872
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: And then invariably learning about the victim, it opens the

873
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: line of inquiry that you're looking for. We're always behind

874
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: the eight ball when we haven't identified the victim. That

875
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: makes a murder investigation very hard from the outset when

876
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: you haven't identified the victim, because it doesn't really give

877
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: you a starting point. Personality profiles do you get into that,

878
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: like what's motivating the person that type of thing.

879
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, we do do them, and the unit used

880
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: to do them quite a lot, and they're quite academic,

881
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: and they're sort of saying, this is who the person is,

882
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 2: and they're not massively different too, like and you've got

883
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: your intel profiles with all and all that kind of stuff,

884
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 2: But they're adding a whole lot of richness into personality

885
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 2: and their relationships with people and why they have those relationships,

886
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: any mental illnesses or behaviors that might But we've found

887
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: with those profiles in and of themselves, they're not actually

888
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 2: useful operationally in the form that they're in, but they're

889
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: really useful to inform something else. So they're really helpful

890
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: to inform a suspect interview, for example. So what we

891
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: sort of do now is if someone comes to us saying,

892
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 2: can you do a personality profile, we'll say, but what

893
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: would you like it for? And we'll try and wait

894
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: it towards whatever they want it for. So if they say, oh, well,

895
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't like as much as we know about them so

896
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: we can interview them, we'll go cool, how about we

897
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: give you some interview advice and there'll be a lot

898
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: of that personality stuff in there too, just trying to

899
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: help the investigation teams rather than just doing our thing

900
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: and giving it to them and going there.

901
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 3: You go, I'm I'm poor to take these as the

902
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 3: city there? What does it mean? Yeah?

903
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: Pronounce it? Which is still me trying to read them

904
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 2: so very much, trying to target what they're trying to

905
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: achieve and then working backwards. And there may be elements

906
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: of a personality profile in it.

907
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: And that could be as simple, I suppose as yeah,

908
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: this person responds well to authority or this person who

909
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: doesn't respect authority. It could be little triggers like that

910
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: that help the way that you might approach the interview.

911
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And it's looking through every little record and

912
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: you know about them because I don't know if the

913
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: AUSSI police systems are the same as ours, but they're

914
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: really skewed to all that safety information that you need

915
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: to know. When you have a real quick glance at it,

916
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 2: someone can look really really violent or really scary, But

917
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 2: then you look deeper and you go, well, actually, traffic

918
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: cop pulled them over last week and they were nice

919
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: as pie and complemented the police officer on their nice haircut,

920
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: and you go that is worth so much more to

921
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 2: if you're gonna have to go and interview this person

922
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: then at quick.

923
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 1: Glance, yeah, yeah, those details. Do your team go out

924
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: and involve themselves in the briefings, like is it all

925
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: done one on one or do they actually attend the

926
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: briefing and explain to the investigative team.

927
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've done a little bit of that. And you

928
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 2: get sort of put on the spot. You're getting pulled

929
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: into a major crime investigation and everyone's in there, and

930
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: I really have to just back up the truck when

931
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: I'm asked and I go, you know, you guys have

932
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: lived and breathed this investigation since it began. You know

933
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: that people far better than anyone on my team could

934
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: just by reading about them. So you've got to go

935
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: with your knowledge, and all will try and do is

936
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 2: add a few nuggets. The psychologists try and get out

937
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: when they can. They'll certainly monitor interviews and things like that,

938
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: but we're sort of just hamstrung by the fact we

939
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: get so many requests. We're really stuck in the office

940
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 2: just trying to deal with them all, and we'd love

941
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: to be able to get out on the ground more,

942
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: but really hard being a National team stuck in Auckland.

943
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: And I don't want to put yourself on the spot

944
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: here because you're still employed by the police, But do

945
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: you see this as a growing area? Do you think

946
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: police forces across the board, because I'm sure you're communicating

947
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: with other police forces, do you think everyone's buying into

948
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: what a unit like yours can can provide?

949
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so, And I don't you know, because

950
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: law enforcement is about people and psychology is people, so

951
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 2: that just makes perfect sense, right, Yeah, But I don't

952
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: know where that goes in the future because it cops

953
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: these days are far more psychologically aware than they were

954
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: when I started nineteen years ago. Yeah, your insines and

955
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,879
Speaker 2: it's fantastic, and it's getting the knowledge out there and

956
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: seeding it amongst the organization and as much as we can,

957
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: we try and put out, you know, generic advice that's

958
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: helpful going forward, so that we're not getting asked the

959
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: same thing over and over again. It's like, here's this

960
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: piece of research, you can read it, and you've got

961
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: it now, so now you're armed with it. There's a

962
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: lot of that going on, So I think they'll be

963
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: buy in and that will result in a massive uptake

964
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: and just the general knowledge of investigators around human behavior

965
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: and psychology. We're seeing an increase in that anyway, and

966
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 2: you're getting interested in it and reading books and all

967
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff's going on. So I don't think

968
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: that will result in our unit getting bigger, but it

969
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: will result in a general knowledge increase across the board.

970
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, approach to it. Okay, Well, look, I think it's

971
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: fascinating the work that the work that you're doing. I

972
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: get the sense I'm saying this lightheartedly. You're hanging out

973
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: with psychologists enough because I can then never pin them

974
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: down to a director like a specific answer like could

975
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: be maybe yeah, maybe so, but that but that is

976
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: that is their science, isn't it.

977
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 3: It's not an absolute no, and.

978
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: There's exceptions for everything. So they have to they have

979
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: to look at all the research and all the experience

980
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: and put it together. And so you're never going to

981
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: get one hundred percent anything. And then that's where the

982
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: detectives come in and they go, well, it's sixty one percent.

983
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: That's so that's the one that it probably is, and

984
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: they'll go, you can't look at it like that, and

985
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: you know, so it's good to have that balance.

986
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: Is a good balance, so I think it changes it

987
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: changes dynamics having access to that sort of experience. I

988
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on crime, and you touched

989
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 1: on it. But one of the things that from something

990
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 1: that you've written that I just want to read back

991
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: to you and then get your thoughts to expand on that,

992
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: and I put it under the heading of your thoughts

993
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: on crime From you, I've developed an institutionally frowned upon

994
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: empathy with offenders, not empathy necessarily with their actions, but

995
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: with them as people. How we can truly understand if

996
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: we haven't walked in those shoes. Judgment is for the courts.

997
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: Police can do their job right without being dicks and

998
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: starting a new cycle of prejudice already and defending. I

999
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: pulled that out because I think it says a lot

1000
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: about your approach, and certainly, sitting down having this chat

1001
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: with you, I see where it's coming from.

1002
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,479
Speaker 3: Do you want to just expand on what you meant

1003
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 3: by that paragraph?

1004
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean nineteen years and my career hasn't been

1005
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: colored by what I'd say a lot of evil. Right,

1006
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 2: So you read about some cases and Ossie's had them.

1007
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: Where you go, man, that really is just some next

1008
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 2: level darkness happening there. But I've never I've never experienced

1009
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,280
Speaker 2: that myself, Like I've never sat across an interview table

1010
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: from someone and gone, you are just one hundred percent. Yeah,

1011
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 2: it's far more. You're a human being and you've made

1012
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: some mistakes, and your toolbox for dealing with hard things

1013
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: is not the same as my toolbox, and whose fault

1014
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: that is? Who knows? You know, you could argue it

1015
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 2: in one research paper and argue a different thing in another,

1016
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: but by and large, you know, if someone commits a murder,

1017
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: they didn't wake up that morning unless they're a contract killer.

1018
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill somebody this afternoon. But it ends

1019
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: up that way. And that's not at all taken away

1020
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: from the fact that they've made a decision to take

1021
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 2: a life and they should face the consequences of that.

1022
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 2: But there's so much more to their life and background

1023
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: than that one moment, So understanding that, recognizing it and

1024
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 2: putting yourself there and going if I'd live their life

1025
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: and whatever that is. And let's go down the cliche one,

1026
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 2: which is a really difficult childhood, really difficult adolescence, victim

1027
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 2: of all sorts, of abuse, drugs funneled into a gang

1028
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: because there's nowhere else that will take care, and you

1029
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 2: find a little sense of camaraderie there, not similar to

1030
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 2: joining the army or the police or a sports team.

1031
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 2: And then once you're there, there's that social validation aspect.

1032
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: You know everyone's doing this, so I'm going to do

1033
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: it too, And so you end up in a place

1034
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 2: where you're not as well equipped as a lot of

1035
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 2: people to deal with terrible situations. Maybe running away isn't

1036
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: your default setting and someone ends up dead. Now I

1037
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: can very much understand that for some people when they

1038
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: take a life for them in that moment, for whatever reason,

1039
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 2: they thought it was the right thing to do for themselves,

1040
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: and wrapping our heads around that and going how is

1041
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 2: that even possible? How could they have ever thought that

1042
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 2: that was the right thing to do. That's the key

1043
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 2: to it, because if you can understand that and empathize,

1044
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 2: that makes that interview room such a more positive place

1045
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 2: to be than the adversarial place it has been for decades.

1046
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: So I guess it comes from a place of suspect

1047
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: inter viewing, but trying to recognize that you know, I'm

1048
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: sitting across the table from a murderer nine years old.

1049
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 2: They weren't out killing people, so there's some element of

1050
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 2: there's got to be some element of humanity to that, right,

1051
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: and understanding that journey they've been on is crucial to

1052
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: perhaps keeping that door open so you can keep the

1053
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 2: conversation going.

1054
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1055
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: Look, I highlighted Chrispy because I wanted you to explain

1056
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: that in your words. But it reinforces something that I

1057
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: think I was aware of during the police but certainly

1058
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: outside the police and sitting in the position I am

1059
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: now speaking to people. I respect the in law enforcement,

1060
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: and one of the things that carried all the way

1061
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: through with all the good detectives, I knew if I

1062
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: had to describe, and people think it's so strange, what's

1063
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: the characteristics of the best detectives.

1064
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: You've worked with?

1065
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: Empathy? They all carry a heavy carry a lot of

1066
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: empathy for people. They understand and when they crack the

1067
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: case and people don't know what goes on in the

1068
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: interview room and they think it's been aggressive, violent, it's

1069
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: quite often, as you've described here, sitting down just talking

1070
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: to people. And I agree very much with what you

1071
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: say about just because someone does a bad thing doesn't

1072
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: make them a bad person. I have seen people, and

1073
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: it's a small percentage of people that I think are

1074
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: pure arrovial and I've confronted them. But ninety nine percent

1075
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: of the people that you deal with, yeah, they've made

1076
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: a mistake, but they've got some goodness in them. And

1077
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: I think it was very interesting you say here without

1078
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: being dix and starting a new cycle of prejudice, disparity

1079
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: and offending. Policing works best when the public like the police,

1080
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: and the public support the police, and the police are

1081
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: representing them. So I think things like that are important

1082
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: messages to get across.

1083
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Who are to decide that this person should

1084
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: bear the brunt of my aggression just because they've done

1085
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 2: something wrong, right, Like, that's not your job. Your job

1086
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: is to a fact find for a court to make

1087
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 2: a decision. And so we can take all that emotion

1088
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 2: out of it. That's just us getting a motive going,

1089
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: you know, I'm right, You're I'm good, You're bad like Matilda,

1090
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: and and that all comes out in the interview room

1091
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 2: because we think that's what we're supposed to do, and

1092
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: it's just like, that's not why we're here. We can

1093
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: parkle that and atally be okay, sitting in a room

1094
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: with someone that's done this and yeah they're not they're

1095
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 2: not the most evil person that ever walked the earth,

1096
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 2: and recognize them.

1097
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,959
Speaker 3: Well, good, good advice. We might wrap up here.

1098
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the chat, and yeah,

1099
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: thanks for the service that you're given to the community

1100
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: over there in New Zealand, and a shout out to

1101
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: people that want to join the New Zealand place, because

1102
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: I really appreciate we're struggling, as I said, over here

1103
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: in Australia with people joining the police and I think

1104
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: exposing people to listening to someone like you, it sounds

1105
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: like you've had a great, great time in your career

1106
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: and you're still enjoying it.

1107
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 3: Oh.

1108
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, What an organization to be a part of, right,

1109
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 2: And what a privilege to actually be put in the

1110
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: shoes that you are as a cop and interact with

1111
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 2: the types of people that we do right, whereas you

1112
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 2: choose any other profession you don't get that. And I

1113
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: think the word privilege genuinely right. It gives you such

1114
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: a good perspective on life, and we need people, we

1115
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: need good people from everywhere. Yeah, so yeah, I'm glad

1116
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 2: that our recruitment is going through a positive stage because

1117
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:44,479
Speaker 2: that's exactly what we want.

1118
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you want the best of the best. Apply

1119
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: and then it's a job that you should be striving

1120
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: for and.

1121
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 3: It is a privilege.

1122
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: So it's always it puts a smile on my face

1123
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: speaking to a cop that enjoys doing their job and

1124
01:00:58,520 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: doing good work.

1125
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 3: So thanks so much for coming on.

1126
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: I catch gillers, no cheers, Gary, Absolute pleasure. Thanks very much,

1127
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: m HM.