1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Galligel people of 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: It's twenty ten and Lucy Hoane has just finished her 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: studies at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. She's returning 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: to her adopted hometown of christ Church, New Zealand with 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: a degree in resilience psychology in toe. Just after her return, 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: a devastating earthquake hits christ Church, killing one hundred and 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: eighty five people. As an expert in resilience, Lucy rushes 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: to help her community. She puts her doctoral studies on 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: hold to lend her expertise to those who need it most. 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: She thinks this is her moment, her calling, But this 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: all changes on Queen's Birthday weekend in twenty fourteen, when 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: a family holiday turns into devastating heartbreak. Her twelve year 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: old daughter Abby hops in the car with her best 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: friend and mother. A driver's speeds for a stop sign 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 2: and kills all three of them Instantly, Lucy is faced 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: with every parent's worst nightmare. I'm at Middleton and this 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: is headgame. Today a powerful lesson on choosing to live 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: and grieve at the same time. Doctor Lucy Hoane, it 21 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 2: is an absolute pleasure to have you on my podcast 22 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: head Game. How are you ah? 23 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: Thanks very much and for inviting me along today. I'm 24 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 3: very well and I'm really looking forward to getting into 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 3: this conversation all things resilient mindset with you, because I 26 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 3: think you and I have probably got quite a lot 27 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: in common. 28 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: Now I can tell straight away, I can just feel 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: the energy through the screen And what made you want 30 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: to study resilience and talk to me about this resilience 31 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: course that you've done in America. 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 3: So in two thousand and nine, when I decided I 33 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: wanted to take a deeper dive into really understanding the 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 3: complex dynamics of resilience, there were two places in the 35 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: world that I could have studied. Actually, at that point 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: there was only one place, I think, and that was 37 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: the University of Pennsylvania and they had a master's program 38 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: in resilience and well being science. They also very soon 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: after one came at uel University of East London. But 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: at that point I was ensconced in New Zealand, so 41 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: that was just even a bit further commute, So I 42 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 3: commuted thata Was and forwards over two thousand and nine 43 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: twenty ten, went eleven times to Philly and that was 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: really exciting, amazing time. And for me, it was particularly 45 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: amazing time because the academic department that I was aligned 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: with had just picked up the contract to create the 47 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 3: Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program to make American soldiers as mentally 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 3: fit as they have traditionally been physically fit. So it 49 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: was a you know, for someone like me, as I say, like, 50 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: my only interest is how can we drag the best 51 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: of findings out of the ivory towers of academia and 52 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: bring them to people in their everyday lives. Then you 53 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: don't get a much more discerning, skeptical, cynical audience than 54 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: those guys who were heading out to Afghanistan at. 55 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: The time, and that program was just starting, was it just. 56 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: They were literally creating it and training the trainers while 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: I was there. So I came back from Penn and 58 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: did my PhD out of Auckland and ended up working 59 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: here in christ Church because then suddenly we had those earthquakes. 60 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,279 Speaker 3: So once I came home, I was suddenly really entrenched 61 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: in helping my own community get back on their feet 62 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: in that post quake. 63 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you come back from your studies fully qualified, 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: in a real, real good place, obviously, and then talk 65 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: to me about the christ Church earthquake, because that was devastating. 66 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: It killed I think one hundred and eighty five people, 67 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: and obviously the community and the country was just in 68 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: a state of emergency. 69 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. It was really devastating. And I have 70 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: no experience of earthquakes, and to be fair, nor did 71 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: anybody in christ Church, and so we had a kind 72 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: of minor ish event. 73 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 4: For the city. 74 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 3: It was further more of rural in September, and I 75 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: think we all thought nothing of that particularly, and then 76 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: on February the twenty second, twenty and eleven, Tuesday lunchtime, 77 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 3: the city was just absolutely hammered by this one very 78 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: big event and it was really shallow under the city, 79 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: and so it ended up bringing down I think it 80 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 3: was I can't remember, it was seventy ninety percent of 81 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: our city buildings in the years afterwards. And the other 82 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: thing that I think people I certainly didn't understand in 83 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 3: the immediate aftermath is that you don't just get one event. 84 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 3: So we ended up having ten thousand after shocks in 85 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: a two year period and five major events. So it 86 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: taught me a lot about anxiety. 87 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: And that's all from the from the one one event, 88 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: from the one major earthquake, and that was the is 89 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: that sort of like the ripple effect the after mouth of. 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: Which of a seismologist, But I know enough having lived 91 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: here now, but it is pretty normal to get big 92 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: after shocks, and that just adds to the whole stress 93 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: of the recovery and the rebuild because every time you 94 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 3: have another major event, that sets the clock back insurance wise, 95 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: and everyone has to put in new insurance claims. Apart 96 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 3: from the fact that it is harrowing, and I would 97 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: say that for a two year period, we never really 98 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: went to bed as a family knowing what was going 99 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: to happen that night, and so that's a lot of 100 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: stress to deal with. And it just did teach me 101 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: a lot about communicating the best of science that I knows. 102 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: By then, I was pretty all over the science, but 103 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 3: I'm always curious about how you package up these findings 104 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: in a way that might actually resonate with people. So 105 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 3: it was professionally a really steep learning curve. I've never 106 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 3: done any speaking, like public speaking at the time. We 107 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: went and did a resilience road show around the city 108 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: and I worked with everyone from huge construction companies to 109 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: you Heart Foundation and government agencies and some of the 110 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: search and rescue. So yeah, it was a big It's 111 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: a long time ago now and the city is a beautiful, 112 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: recovered place. 113 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: Can you remember that day, Lucy? Can you remember that 114 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: the day? And can you just talk me through the 115 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: day and how you reacted to it. 116 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: I was working from home and I'm a mum of three, 117 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: and when we live in a hills seaside community with 118 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: big steep hills, and the hills came tumbling down and 119 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: so that the hills were terrifying and people were killed 120 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: under boulders that came crashing down from our hills. And 121 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 3: so I can see our kids school at their little 122 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 3: primary school from here, and I watched them watching the 123 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: cliffs collapse in front of them. And it became my 124 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: job to stay at home with children that got home 125 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: and other neighborhood people. And I don't think I would 126 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: as a mum, I was, I remember that was kind 127 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: of my complaint at one point, was I was just 128 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: stuck at home my husband is a builder, I should 129 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: have explained, so out of the two of us, he 130 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: was probably a bit more useful to the community in 131 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 3: those immediate days and hours. So I remember being really 132 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: frustrated that I couldn't get out and help people more. 133 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 3: But actually it was just doing the mothering thing and 134 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: looking after the kids, and then we all had to 135 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: be evacuated. I mean at the point that the tanks 136 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: came rolling through our village, I remember think it's definitely 137 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: time to get out of here. And we had no 138 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: services for you know, weeks, so we had to go 139 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: and live somewhere else for a bit. But we had 140 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: three families that night. We had twenty one people that night, 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: and another night here in a tsunami warning, we've had 142 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: sixty sixty people and seven dogs. 143 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 4: In the house. 144 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: So you know, you just do you know, you learn 145 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: to muddle your way through. And I think that's a 146 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: very little understood aspect resilience, is that it's not all 147 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 3: about perfection and strong stoic behavior. 148 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 4: It's about muddling your way through. 149 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: Because my sister was lost her home three hours and 150 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: nought of us in a later event in twenty sixteen, 151 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: and I remember At that point I nearly lost it 152 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 3: because they had the river coming towards them. We already 153 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: thought they'd lost their home, they'd lost a bridge, there 154 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 3: was no access, and at that point I've lost my daughter, 155 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: my mum, and my sister was threatened, and I was. 156 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 4: Really losing the plot. 157 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: And I remember someone sort of saying to me, Oh, 158 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: this isn't looking very resilient, and I was like, no, no, 159 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: this is absolutely the appropriate response to what is going 160 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 3: on in my life right now. And that is all 161 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: part of resilience. 162 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: Being scared, Yeah, it's finding a way through over around under. 163 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: Its crawl is literally you know, yeah, it's you know, 164 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: survival is resilience, right, you know, you're you're coping in 165 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: a way that you're getting through each hour, You're getting 166 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: through each day, You'll get then getting through each week. 167 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: And again I'm glad that you mentioned that, because you know, 168 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: people do think it's just about you know, being brave 169 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: there with your chest out and bouncing things off. It's like, no, no, 170 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: you've got the rubble on you. You are, you know, 171 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: in the trenches, you are. You know, you're you're still crawling, 172 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: You're still making small, small, tiny progress and I always say, 173 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: you know, progress over perfection. You know, in the right direction, 174 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: even if it's an inch at a time, you know 175 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: that ultimately you know why You've got your whole world, 176 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 2: you know, crumbling around you. But that is the epitome 177 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: of resilience, is realizing that you're you're still here. You know, 178 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: you're you're you're still breathing, you're still moving forward. You know, 179 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: you look around, you use the positive people around you 180 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: to keep going. And you are one of those positive 181 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 2: people during the during the aftermath, shall we say, of 182 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: the earthquake, because your skill set certainly came into play then, 183 00:10:59,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: didn't it. 184 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 185 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 3: I mean there was a moment where I remember saying 186 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: to my husband, will there ever be a point at 187 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: which we leave? And he kind of looked at me 188 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 3: and laughed and went, you do resilience, and I'm a builder. 189 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: I don't think we're going anywhere for a good ten years, 190 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 3: and where would we go? And yeah, yeah, it was definitely. 191 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: It was a revealing time. It was a hugely challenging time, 192 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: and I learned so much about resilience, about the community, 193 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: the collective resilience that you know, we really are stronger 194 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: together and oddly, and it became an amazing time to 195 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 3: have my skill set because whereas previously people weren't very 196 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 3: interested in it, and you know, it's quite hard to 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: do well being and resilience training. Back in two thoy 198 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: and eleven, never one thought that was just kind of soft, 199 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: you know, Nambi paired being woo woo stuff. Suddenly people 200 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 3: in this community really got it. They understood how grateful 201 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: they were to have each other. They understood that you 202 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 3: needed to check in on your neighbors and that whole 203 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 3: community resilience. As I've watched that play out time and 204 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 3: again here and that has been an absolute privilege to 205 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: see the dynamic processes in action. 206 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 4: And you know, I feel pretty lucky to have seen 207 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 4: that in. 208 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: Terms of my own academic and professional and personal understanding 209 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: of this really complex topic. 210 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: And did it force you to stay in New Zealand? 211 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: Did you just find a sort of need to just 212 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: stay in New Zealand? Say, right, I've got my work 213 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: cut out here. I'm far from finished, it's far from over, 214 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to stay with it for a while. 215 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 4: I think that's really true. I think that is. 216 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:04,359 Speaker 3: Absolutely true that our community, the greater city was decimated, 217 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: and already we've forgotten how bad it was. I watched 218 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 3: a movie the other day where they showed you some 219 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 3: drone footage of downtown. We couldn't get into downtown christ 220 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: Church for nearly two years. I think it was because 221 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: they then just dismantled the whole city, and literally, this 222 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: strange footage just showed you what looks. 223 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 4: Like parking lot after parking lot. It was just an 224 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 4: empty city with the odd building here and there, and 225 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 4: there was a feeling that, yeah, we were locked and. 226 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 3: Loaded, and we didn't want to go anywhere, and we 227 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: wanted to be part of this rebuild. And I also 228 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 3: have written about academically the post traumatic growth that I 229 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 3: have witnessed in this city that has prepared us better 230 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: for COVID and better for any other subsequent disasters, because 231 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: we know what it takes to rely on each other. 232 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 3: And because of the earthquakes, our education sector, our health 233 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 3: sector had all created much stronger closer ties and had 234 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 3: wandered out of their silos that so often happens, you know, 235 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: And there was much more multi cross government agency work 236 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: going on, so that when COVID hit, we ended up 237 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 3: writing a piece of some research and in a big 238 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: international journal about the post traumatic growth and how all 239 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: that we'd gone through had actually enabled us to set 240 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 3: up the systems and infrastructure that enabled us to be 241 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: more ready and more adaptable when COVID put us into 242 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 3: those lockdowns. 243 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 4: Really interesting. 244 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: Does resilience breed resilience? You know, when you have a 245 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: community where you see resilience, where you look around and 246 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: you go wow, you know, people look at you, they 247 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: see what you're going through. You look at other people 248 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: and you see that you're all getting through this and 249 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: you're pulling through. Does that create resil within itself? 250 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: I think that's a big question, and I think it's 251 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: pretty complex things going on there. So we know that 252 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: there are things like social emotion or contagion, and we 253 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: know that that means that if everybody's really struggling and 254 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: high levels of negative emotions, then that actually is pretty contagious. 255 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: So we know that when you're in that post disaster 256 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 3: recovery period that what you want from your communities is 257 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: that Stockdale paradox of realistic optimism or pragmatic optimism. So 258 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: you want people to be really realistic with what they're 259 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 3: up against, but never lose hope that they will get 260 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: through somehow. 261 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: And so what I can speak to is that in that. 262 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: Post quake period, I remember being on the building site 263 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: one day and one of the boys calling the local newspaper, 264 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,479 Speaker 3: which was called the Press they should rename this depress 265 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 3: because it was just so depressing, And you know, his 266 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: observation was, it's not good for me to read this 267 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: in the morning when we're all trying to get out 268 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 3: there and rebuild the city, and I need some good news. 269 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: And so I think there is a kind of contagion 270 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 3: effect going on. But at the same time, as you say, 271 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: when you see the incredible agility that our communities were displaying, 272 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: and I remember that our children, our schools had to 273 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: cite share for a long time, so we lost, you know, 274 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: I don't know how many, but a third or more 275 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: of the schools. None of the premises could be used, 276 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: and so our eldest, who had just started at secondary school, 277 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: suddenly went right across to the other side of town 278 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 3: where he was at school in the afternoons. I think 279 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: I can hardly remember now. So the school basically had yeah, 280 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 3: they had Papnui High in there from seven thirty to 281 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: one o'clock, and then my ed's school went in there 282 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: at one third and they use the same site in 283 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: the afternoon. And I remember one day sitting at a 284 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 3: zebra crossing watching Kappenui High School. You know, I don't 285 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 3: know a thousand kids go that way and then fifteen 286 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 3: hundred boys from this other school going there for the afternoon, 287 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 3: and think that is pretty incredible, isn't it. This is 288 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: literally the mental and physical agility that resilience requires in action, 289 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: and was blown away by the tolerance. I remember at 290 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: one point thinking I should scrap my PhD, which was 291 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 3: on well being psychological well being and how do we 292 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: measure and conceptualize well being? I remember thinking, I think 293 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: I should scrap it and study tolerance because the levels 294 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: of tolerance and how many times all the roads were 295 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 3: dug up for years is just quite staggering to see 296 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 3: that ability of humans to just cope and not complaint 297 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: that much. Yeah, it was really amazing. 298 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: You lost your daughter. And this is a point I 299 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: really wanted to talk to you about because I'm a 300 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: father of five, and you know, when I read your story, 301 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: it is every parent's worst nightmare and it sends shivers 302 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: down my spine, and you know, just to think about 303 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: it psychologically, just to think about it for a second, 304 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: I have to just go no, because I can't. I 305 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: couldn't even fathom. I couldn't even imagine what it's like. 306 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: So you go through these earthquakes, you're coming out at 307 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: the other end, and then you lose your daughter Abby 308 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen in a car crash. If you can, 309 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: could you take me back to that moment if possible. 310 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, you know, you say that it's hard to fathom, 311 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: and it is for every parent, you know, it is 312 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: impossible to imagine. And it was an unsuspecting Saturday, and 313 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: we were all going three families to buy can you 314 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 3: newly opened Mountain Bike Trail? And at the last minute, Abby, 315 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: who was twelve years old at the time, the phone 316 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 3: rang and she said, can I go in Ella's car? 317 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: So we said yeah, sure, you know, they were tied 318 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: at the hip and we thought nothing of it and 319 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: dropped her off at the network courts. So she went 320 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 3: off with Ella and we're having dinner later on that night, 321 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 3: and Ella's family hadn't turned up, and we, as you do, 322 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 3: just assumed they were. 323 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 4: Stuck in traffic or something. Had happened. 324 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 3: But we then got a phone call from the policeman 325 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 3: say he was on his way to see us and there. 326 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: Being an accident. 327 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 3: And as they had driven down through the back country 328 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: lanes to come and join us, and someone had driven 329 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: through a stop sign at one hundred kilometers an hour 330 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: and crashed into their car and killed Ella's mum, Sally, 331 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: who was a really great friend of mine. 332 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 4: And Ella and Abby and. 333 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 3: So you know, they literally the unthinkable is suddenly very 334 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 3: much our reality. And I remember the policeman coming tracking 335 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: us down in this country lodge mountain lodge, and distinctly 336 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 3: thinking that it was like one of those moments where 337 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 3: your life path splits that you never see coming and 338 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 3: is completely unfathomable. But and you'll probably appreciate this a 339 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: because I can't quite help. I can't really separate me 340 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 3: the researcher, from me the mother. And I remember thinking 341 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 3: like almost like an outer body experience going whole. I 342 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 3: didn't see that coming, and that is now my life, 343 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 3: that we are going to be forced to live down 344 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: this completely unexpected path and somehow have to survive her loss. 345 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 3: And I think the words were, I mean, I only 346 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: now remember this because I've written about it in my book. 347 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 3: But you know, that's your life now, time to sink 348 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: or swim. And that was my survivor's mission. And you 349 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: see this a lot and the resilience literature that people 350 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: talk about as survivor's mission. And it was crystal clear 351 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: to me from that very first moment that we were 352 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 3: on We were fighting for survival and I was bloody 353 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 3: determined that we would somehow make it through. 354 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: And the obvious quer how do you tackle something like that? 355 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: I know that you said that, you know you're forced 356 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: and when you're forced down a certain road or in 357 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: a certain direction, then you have to put. 358 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: Up or shut up. 359 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: Really, you know you have to. That's you can't. You've 360 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: got no other option. It's a case of we have 361 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: to tackle the how do you even start to tackle 362 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: something like that? 363 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 4: I think? 364 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 3: And thus so so I do lots of work nowadays. 365 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 3: We run a program called Coping with Loss, and so 366 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: I spent my life now talking to breathed people about 367 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: how they can cope with loss. And so what I'm 368 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: talking to you about now is partly my own experience 369 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 3: and partly what I have seen work with others. And 370 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: the first thing is that you've somehow got a believe 371 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 3: that you're going to get through. And I didn't want 372 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 3: to be a victim. And we were told that we 373 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: were now prime candidates for divorce, mental illness, and family 374 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 3: estrangement in that first week, and I remember thinking, WHOA, 375 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: thanks for that. I thought my life was already pretty shit. 376 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: Can't believe that you're just making it worse for me. 377 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: And I became very determined to think, Okay, that's not 378 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 3: happening on my watch, and that's kind of Mamma bear 379 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: instinct thing of just going nap. 380 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 4: We're not doing that. 381 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: I am going to hold my family together and we're 382 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 3: somehow going. 383 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 4: To get through this. 384 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 3: I knew, of course, I had all my training to 385 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: lean on, and even in those first earliest days and weeks, 386 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: I was using tools such as really thinking about where 387 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 3: I was focusing my attention, and so I had this 388 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: voice in my head that said, choose life not death. 389 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: Don't lose what you have to what you've lost. And 390 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 3: we are fortunate enough to have two beautiful sons who 391 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: were teenagers at the time, and I was really determined to. 392 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 4: Live for them and be there for them, and they 393 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: needed me right now. You know, we needed to somehow 394 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 4: cobble together. 395 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 3: A family existence that was going to enable us to 396 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: just get through the days and weeks. All of what 397 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 3: I'd learned in the disaster recovery was really helpful. For instance, 398 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 3: I knew that it would be helpful to us to 399 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: create some semblance of a normal routine. And you know, 400 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: I'm being using the word routine really loosely here. We 401 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: would get up in the morning and walk the dog 402 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: and have a cup of coffee, and then you know, 403 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 3: talk to other people, and then have some lunch, and 404 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: then walk the dogs again, see the kids after school. 405 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: But getting the kids wanted to go back to school, 406 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: and I think me knowing that that would help them, 407 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: knowing from my training that we let them go about 408 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: much sooner. 409 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 2: Than me trying to lead a sort of semi normal 410 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: life without too much disruption. 411 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, that mainly functioning was my kind of goal. 412 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 3: I remember my husband and I talking about that, saying, 413 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 3: you know, we can't control so much of this, but 414 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: if we just endeavor to kind of mainly function, and 415 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: if we acknowledge when we can't do that, that. 416 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 4: It's okay to lie on the character and not get 417 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: out of bed. Then there's a lot of self compassion. 418 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 3: And in my I don't know if you see my 419 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 3: ted talk, but those are those three secrets of resilience 420 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 3: I think are these are my kind of three sort 421 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 3: of tools of resilience. 422 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 4: That is self compassion. You've got to be kind to 423 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: yourself and let yourself. 424 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 3: Off the hook and lower the bar and do what 425 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 3: you can. So that's the first bit. And then this 426 00:25:53,040 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 3: ability to really be or grow yourself awareness the way 427 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 3: you are putting your attention and then asking yourself is 428 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 3: what I'm doing, the way I'm choosing to think, act, 429 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 3: or be helping or harming me in my quest to 430 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 3: get through this. So those were my absolute foundational resilience 431 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: tools that I had picked up at the University of 432 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: Pennsylvania that without doubt came and saved me. So in essence, 433 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 3: they are self compassion. You know, you know that shit happens, 434 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: and that stops you from feeling discriminated against and singled out. 435 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 3: And then you grow your self awareness to really tune 436 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 3: into what is still available to you and the strength 437 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: and supports that you have got. 438 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: And then you do that. I use that question around. 439 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 3: Helping or harming me to give me some self control, 440 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: to put me back in the driver's seat, so that 441 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 3: I am doing everything I can to survive, taking action 442 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: and not just being a passive participant in this journey. 443 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 2: I find a lot of people as well, Lucy. They 444 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: they take things extremely personally when it's out of their control. 445 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: And I found that with soldiers, you know, and when 446 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: I talked to veterans that have witnessed you know, their 447 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: friends being you know, blown up in front of them, 448 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: and they take it terribly personally, as if you know, 449 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: that should have been me, Why wasn't it me? And 450 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: I always say to them that, listen, it wasn't put 451 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: that id, didn't have your name on it. It was 452 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: just a you know, it's just to disrupt and to disturb. 453 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: And how hard was it not to take things on personally, 454 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: especially because you mentioned that you you know, it's just 455 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: saying to you, oh, yeah, jump in that, guys, it's fine, 456 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: and you know, there's so many different variables that could 457 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: have happened. But you can't take it personally, can you? 458 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: Because I think that's a huge downfall of not being 459 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 2: able to process something and eventually you sort of not 460 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 2: move on, but move forward, Yeah. 461 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 3: Totally, and having my training helped me not take it personally. 462 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 3: And my husband said in the police car that night 463 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: when because they drove us home, and he said, we're 464 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: not going to blame the driver and our boys and 465 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 3: I all. 466 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 4: Went, yeah, we're all going to agree on that now 467 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 4: because we know that life is random, and. 468 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 3: That helped us, like we didn't do the why me 469 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: because we all know that tough times, awful things happen 470 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: to people all over the world every day, and it's 471 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 3: not like people get singled out, and we know that 472 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 3: life's not fair. I think these are some of the 473 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 3: deeply held core beliefs that came to save us. And 474 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: I also that stopped me from doing the what ifs 475 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 3: that I would knowing that I could kind of coral 476 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 3: my attention. I used to have a rule that would 477 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 3: myself do too. What is you know, what if I 478 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: hadn't let her get in the car that day? What 479 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: if I hadn't put the trip away? And then I'd say, seriously, Lucy, 480 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 3: is this helping our harm in you? It's just that 481 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: your honor hiding to nowhere? And I would use it 482 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: all the time, you know, like do we want to 483 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: meet it. We were offered a restorative justice session with 484 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 3: the driver afterwards, and I thought, well, will. 485 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 4: That help me? 486 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: Like I don't, I've forgiven him. Forgiveness is not condoning. 487 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: Just pause there and say that for a minute. 488 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 4: But I've forgiven him. But do I want to spend 489 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,239 Speaker 4: time with him? 490 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 3: No? 491 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 4: Well that helped me. 492 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 3: No, I just said no, thanks, But my husband, asking 493 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: exactly the same question, said yeah, that will really help me. 494 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 3: I want to spend time with him. And I think 495 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: that speaks to the fact that that question really empowers 496 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: you and puts you in the driver's seat. And I 497 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: truly believe that we all have to make our own 498 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: recipe for resilience. We have to work out what works 499 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 3: for us, and it changes all the time. You know, 500 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: it's situational, contextual, so and it's a very powerful tool 501 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 3: to help you with your decision making in those tough moments. 502 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: What really interested me about having you on, Lucy was, 503 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: you know, I speak to a lot of psychologists and 504 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, resilience coaches, and you know 505 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: they've been to they've got all their masters, they've got 506 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: all their degrees, and they've practiced it. You know, there 507 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: there the subject matter expert, you know, reading books, et cetera. 508 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: But you've lived through both, which I find absolutely fascinating. 509 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: Does what you've taught, what you've learned, and what you've 510 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: you know, taken in over the years through your education 511 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: and through your books, does it sink with the life 512 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: experience that you had, And how much did that help 513 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: having gone through college, UNI, et cetera and got all 514 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: these qualification. 515 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a great question, and I think it 516 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 3: has given me a lot more confidence in the material 517 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: because I've tested it. And oddly, because we've all lived 518 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 3: through COVID and like I said, I had to live 519 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: through two years of earthquakes and then my sister's earthquake 520 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: where they lost their family home, and then we had 521 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 3: that mosque shooting here in twenty and nineteen. And my 522 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 3: brother has died early, very early mid fifties to dementia. 523 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 4: We've lost Abby. You know, we've all we all have 524 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 4: we all have stuff to deal with in life. 525 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: But I guess I have this kind of bird'seye view, 526 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: like I'm the drone looking down going Yeah, this is 527 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: so bizarre that actually these ways of thinking, acting, and 528 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: being which I might not have been so confident in 529 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 3: when I first came out with my newly minted master's degree. 530 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 3: Now I'm like, seriously, you know, we don't really understand 531 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 3: the genetic makeup of resilience. You can't always influence your environment, 532 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 3: but actually, if you are really careful and able to 533 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: choose how you think and act, you definitely can. 534 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 4: Have a big influence on your lived experience. And it 535 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 4: has made me. It's made me much more much. 536 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: I just feel much more strongly about the material, and 537 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: it's given me a lot more confidence. And nowadays I've 538 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 3: learned so much more about grief, which frankly is a 539 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: topic that no one knows anything about really. 540 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 4: Out in the everyday world. 541 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: We live in grief awkward, grief illiterate, you know, death 542 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 3: phobic societies. And yet if seventy six percent of people 543 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 3: have dealt with a potentially traumatic event, then most people 544 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 3: are coping with loss. And I am now just forever 545 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: fascinated by that, by how we cope with loss and 546 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 3: what enables us. 547 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 4: To adapt in a healthy way while still grieving. 548 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: And who knew that you could live and grieve at 549 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 3: the same time, Because I didn't, as sure as hell do. 550 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, That's what I find. It's so fascinating that 551 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 2: you've lived through both your you're highly you know, you're 552 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: highly educated in it, and then you can't talk about 553 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: living at the top end of it of resiliency and 554 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: you say, oh, everyone goes through hard times. But wow, now, 555 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: fusing the two together, have you come up with new practicing? 556 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: There are new ways to deal? Has there been a 557 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: light bulb moments where you I sort of kick yourself 558 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 2: moment where you said where you thought, oh, I did 559 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: understand that, But now I can understand it, and I 560 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: can really unravel it, unpick it and enhance it in 561 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: a way where where no one you know this is 562 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: a new practicing. This is that this is a new 563 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: way I believe of dealing with a situation, whether it's 564 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: grief or you know, compassion, whatever it may be. Fusing 565 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: the two together, have you as it given you a 566 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: little combustion of ideas, so. 567 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 3: Many aha moments, and a really good one I can 568 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 3: share with you now is that, like so many people, 569 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 3: when Abby died, I knew of the five stages of 570 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: brief I might have been able to name three or 571 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: four of them. That whole kind of bargaining depression, denial, 572 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 3: anger acceptance model that came from Elizabeth Kugler Ross, and 573 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: I remember thinking, Ah, this isn't really fitting with my experience, 574 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: Like I don't feel angry, I'm not doing I'm not 575 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 3: in denial. I've seen my daughter's dead body. I mean 576 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: there's no denying that. And I reached acceptance right at 577 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 3: the beginning. So that made me curious. And then I 578 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 3: went looking for scientific evidence, and turns out a she 579 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 3: created that model for people who were anticipating dying, so 580 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: actually it's not about breathing whatsoever. 581 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: It was about the people. 582 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 3: Who were dying, what the stages that they might go through. 583 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 3: And then I dug a bit deeper to go and actually, 584 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 3: there's very little evidence to show that we go through 585 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 3: those stages at all. So instead of that, I then 586 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 3: realized that I wanted to be an active participant in 587 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 3: my grief process rather than just waiting for this supposed 588 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 3: stage theory to happen. And I bumped into what I 589 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 3: didn't bump into. I found in the research something called 590 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 3: oscillation theory, which is so much of a more helpful model, 591 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 3: which says that when you're grieving, you've got to do 592 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: two things. 593 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 4: You've got to. 594 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 3: Cope with the loss. You've got to cope with the 595 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 3: actual bereavement. You know, you're misery the loss, and then 596 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 3: you also have got to cope with rediscovering and rebuilding 597 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 3: a new life. And so what we do is we 598 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 3: ever flow between these two states. Sometimes we're in what 599 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 3: they call the loss oriented stressor you know, I'm crying, 600 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 3: I'm on the couch, I'm hiding under the dovet and 601 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 3: then at other times I have to get the kids 602 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 3: to school, I've got to get some food and on 603 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 3: the table. 604 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 4: I've got to go and work. 605 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,959 Speaker 3: I've got to just reapproach life. And what the theory 606 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 3: shows is that you don't want to spend too much 607 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 3: time in either of these. So you don't want to 608 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 3: be sucked into the brief all the time, and you 609 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 3: don't want to be avoiding it getting on with the 610 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 3: everyday life that you actually just want to ebb and flow, 611 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: And that I think is so interesting when you then 612 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 3: put it, when you bring that bereavement model back to 613 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 3: resilience and a wider perspective and go, this is really 614 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 3: true of most challenges. Isn't it that you actually isn't 615 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 3: that you don't need to go at it all the time. 616 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 3: You can actually approach it in bite sized chunks. Try 617 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 3: and sort this Nihli problem out, and then come back 618 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 3: and go, Okay, I'm going to take a break. I'm 619 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 3: going to go and distract myself with something, you know, 620 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 3: ideally a kind of healthy distraction rather than boots, but 621 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 3: you know, find your way to ebb and flow that 622 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 3: was and forwards between the problem. And so we've learned 623 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 3: so much about grief that everybody should know. And it 624 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 3: appalls me all the time how little everyone knows about 625 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 3: grief when we all need to know this stuff we 626 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 3: all go through. 627 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: And how I suppose a question for myself, but also 628 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,479 Speaker 2: I would imagine from a lot of people, how hard 629 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: is it to live a positive life or to move 630 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 2: on rebuilding a new life without the guilt taking over 631 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 2: and without you know, you're feeling that you know you're 632 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: rebuilding a new life, you're almost letting go of your 633 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: old life. 634 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 3: So it'll go another great question because one of the 635 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 3: contemporary grief theories that I rely on, which I basically 636 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 3: discover when I was first breathing abby and now we 637 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 3: share with our clients all the time, it's something called 638 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 3: continuing bonds theory, and it suggests that the most healthy 639 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 3: way to cope with a loss is to actually work 640 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 3: out ways to keep that person close to you and 641 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 3: continue to honor them in life so that you move 642 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 3: forward without really feeling like you leave you have left 643 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 3: them behind. And so you can do that in like 644 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 3: small ways. You know, I can wear I've got a 645 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 3: little a for Abby on my necklace here. You know, 646 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 3: she's always close, but I can you know, one of 647 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 3: my sons is coming home this weekend, and I'll always 648 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 3: buy Abby's favorite crisps, you know, to have in the 649 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 3: house when he's here. But I'm also building her legacy. 650 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 3: And all this work I'm doing on our Coping with 651 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 3: Loss program is I've learned all this stuff because of her. 652 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 3: And I never would be doing this work if I didn't, 653 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 3: if I wasn't lucky enough to have her in my life. 654 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 3: And it's amazing how of course, it doesn't take all 655 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 3: the pain away, but it does really make you build 656 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 3: a more constructive approach to coping with that grief. And 657 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 3: you know that she's forever with us. You know she's 658 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 3: not here, but she will never be forgotten. 659 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 4: And we're so glad we had her. 660 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: I love that, and it is it's just the small things, 661 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: you know, the small memories, the small thing that there 662 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: will always be a topic of conversation for Abbi, right, 663 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: so that she's always She's always part and parcel of 664 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, you guys going old together and moving on. 665 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: And talk to me about your ted talk because I 666 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: found that. You know, I could listen to you for 667 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 2: I could talk to you for ages. But why do 668 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: you do the ted talk and do you enjoy doing them? 669 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 2: And does it help you as an individual? 670 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 3: So firstly, I did it because I was asked. I 671 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 3: was asked to do it in twenty sixteen and I 672 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 3: said no way. And I was writing my book Resilient 673 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 3: Grieving at the time, and I said, no, I'm not 674 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 3: doing that. And then Kylo, who runs sed X came here, 675 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 3: came back to me in twenty nineteen and said, look, 676 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 3: we're reopening the town hall. You are so much part 677 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 3: of the resilient store of this city. You've got to 678 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 3: be there when we open the town hall. It's been 679 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 3: closed for whatever it was, nine years. And I remember laughing, 680 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 3: so seriously, you know how to get me, don't you. 681 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 3: So she persuaded me to do it, and then, of 682 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: course I had only done it about six months earlier 683 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 3: before COVID hit, and I was lucky enough that in 684 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 3: that COVID period it was then put up, elevated, promoted 685 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 3: onto the ted dot com platform, so it went from 686 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 3: a ted X to a Ted Talk and that meant 687 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 3: that suddenly it was helping people all over the world. 688 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 3: And it has been incredible having I get literally emails 689 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 3: and messages on instarem, LinkedIn or whatever weekly from people saying, 690 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 3: just watch your Ted talk or we watched it at work, 691 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 3: and it's been really great, you know, to understand the 692 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 3: three secrets that I talk about of resilient people in truth. Yes, 693 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 3: so I think all of my work helps make sense 694 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 3: out of something so senseless. And I also know from 695 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 3: all my research into bereavement nowadays that sense making and 696 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 3: meaning making is actually the key process that goes on 697 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 3: in grief. That is what we're trying to do is 698 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 3: trying to understand how something so awful could happen and 699 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 3: trying to recreate core beliefs and a meaningful world that 700 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 3: makes sense to us in the months and years after 701 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 3: that loss. 702 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 4: So we are deeply meaning making beings humans. We search 703 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 4: for meaning in everything we do. 704 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 2: We're problem solvers, right. 705 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, we are? Yeah, and sense makers, you know, just like, 706 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 4: how did this happen? 707 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 3: And what? Over time, when something so traumatic has happened 708 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 3: and you've had all your core beliefs smashed apart, over 709 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 3: time you are rebuilding a world that makes sense to 710 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 3: you again. And one of the key researchers these work 711 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 3: I love is a guy called Tom Attic, and he 712 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 3: talks about relearning to live in the world, and I 713 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 3: think that's kind of what it's all about. 714 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 4: Wow. 715 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 2: You see. Before I leave you, one final question, how 716 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 2: do you help yourself? Because I know it can become draining, 717 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: and I know when you can't help yourself or you 718 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 2: haven't got that support network around you, you know, you 719 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 2: can crash and burn How you have you stopped yourself 720 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 2: from doing that? 721 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 3: So, in truth, having a PhD in well wing science 722 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 3: and lecturing on burnout prevention helps me because you've got 723 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 3: to you know, I'm a ruthless prioritizer. So one of 724 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 3: my sessions I run is on ruthless prioritization and I 725 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 3: am ruthless, so I really try not to get sucked 726 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 3: into all the noise and stuck in the wheat. And 727 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 3: then in terms of my own wellbeing, we've got to 728 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 3: really annoying Jack Russell's and at about you know, at 729 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 3: the end of the day, or they're at our heels 730 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 3: and they want to get down to the beach and 731 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:56,439 Speaker 3: get out. 732 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 4: And yeah, I know the social support. 733 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 3: I've just recently been thinking, you're not doing enough exercise, Lucy, 734 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 3: You're not seeing enough of your friends. So just this 735 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 3: morning I rejoined a gym and went along with a 736 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 3: couple of my mates, thinking you need a top up, 737 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 3: you need to get out and pretending that I'm going 738 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 3: to get into our garage gym and do that. And 739 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,280 Speaker 3: I need to stop fooling myself. 740 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 4: And join a gym. 741 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's that self awareness. You just got to 742 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 3: keep it going, haven't you of what's helping and what's 743 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 3: harming you. 744 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 2: You do, Lucy, well, listen, do ten squats for me, please, 745 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 2: And it's been an absolute pleasure. I honestly could talk 746 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 2: to you. It fascinates me. I'm sort of now digging 747 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,479 Speaker 2: my head into the books, you know, the practical side 748 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 2: of you know, I keep going through and I keep 749 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 2: putting myself in these situations to keep myself resilient and 750 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 2: to learn about it. And I'm getting my head in 751 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,240 Speaker 2: the books now, so you've definitely sparked that within myself. 752 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 2: So thank you so much, Lucy, and thank you ever 753 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 2: so much for coming on Headgame. 754 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 3: Thank you awesome, thanks for inviting me, and it's been 755 00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 3: a pleasure. 756 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 2: Doctor Lucy Hone is the author of Resilient Grieving, How 757 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 2: to Find Your Way Through Devastating Loss. I'll link the 758 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 2: details in the show notes. Thanks so much for joining 759 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 2: me on Headgame. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure 760 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: you're subscribed so you don't miss any of our incredible stories, 761 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 2: and leave me a review wherever you're listening. I'm Att Middleton. 762 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 2: Catch you again next time.