Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two, our check on the eye
Speaker 1: catch killers. For those of you that didn't hear part one,
Speaker 1: Harry told us about his experience of being sexually abused
Speaker 1: by his stepmother from the ages of thirteen to sixteen.
Speaker 1: Delving in really deep, I got to say, like the
Speaker 1: emotional trauma and everything else, the impact that has on
Speaker 1: your life and the way that you articulated, And I
Speaker 1: asked you during the break, how old you are. You're
Speaker 1: only twenty four. If you speak with a lot of
Speaker 1: wisdom for a twenty four year old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when we share these stories,
Speaker 2: it's not about just sharing it for the sake of
Speaker 2: sharing trauma. It's about sharing it because you know, I
Speaker 2: want people to be able to pick up lessons from this,
Speaker 2: to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to ensure that
Speaker 2: the next kid doesn't even experience it, doesn't experience even
Speaker 2: a tenth of what I had to.
Speaker 1: Well, I think with people like yourself coming out and
Speaker 1: speaking about these things, because the trouble with child sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: it gets swept under the cup so much. Because it's
Speaker 1: such a confronting subject, people don't want to talk about
Speaker 1: it and will avoid at all costs. So when someone
Speaker 1: like yourself is prepared to come out and say put
Speaker 1: your hand up and say, hey, this happened to me,
Speaker 1: this is the impact on me, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people listening will start the dawn on what we're
Speaker 1: talking about with child's sexual abuse, because it's very easy
Speaker 1: just to put it, sweep it under the carpet and
Speaker 1: forget about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easy. It's unfortunately the way that you know,
Speaker 2: society has treated the subject matter of child sexual abuse.
Speaker 2: It's you're right, it's allowed people to it's given people
Speaker 2: license to turn a blind eye to it. And you know,
Speaker 2: individuals like me or other activists who are out in
Speaker 2: the space, you know, really speaking about these issues. I
Speaker 2: think for me, what I find is my job is
Speaker 2: to pull that narrative back and that belief back and
Speaker 2: say no, we have to sit, we have to listen,
Speaker 2: we have to learn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're doing very well at getting people to
Speaker 1: understand what you've gone through.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: So we left part one that at the age of fifteen,
Speaker 1: you found out that your step mother, who was sexually
Speaker 1: abusing you, had become pregnant. Your father heard that vaseectomy.
Speaker 1: He was under the misguided belief that the child was his.
Speaker 1: I think you received a text when they are overseas
Speaker 1: on the holiday, your father and your step mother in
Speaker 1: the Philippines, and she texts you and said that she
Speaker 1: was pregnant. You're living in the same house, you're seeing
Speaker 1: the step mother who's sexually abusing you, and sexual abuse
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem to be enough. It's the mental manipulation,
Speaker 1: the psychological manipulation. What she was doing to you, basically
Speaker 1: stuffing up your life, like changing your life, putting your
Speaker 1: life in the direction that it shouldn't it shouldn't have gone.
Speaker 1: You found out, you told us that you found out
Speaker 1: that she had had the child when you're working doing
Speaker 1: pre apprenticeship training as an electrician. Did you go to
Speaker 1: the hospital?
Speaker 2: I did, Yes, I did, And I remember walking in
Speaker 2: there and the sort of weight of the reality of
Speaker 2: what had happened really kicked in because the life, you know,
Speaker 2: the life of that little girl was right there in
Speaker 2: front of me. And I was, on one hand, because
Speaker 2: of that scale of manipulation that occurred, you know, part
Speaker 2: of me was really excited to be a father, but
Speaker 2: you know, the sexual abuse that I went through really
Speaker 2: sort of put my aging process into supercharge, so to speak.
Speaker 2: So I was, you know, wise beyond my years at
Speaker 2: that age, and I just thought, this is going to
Speaker 2: be a real challenge for this girl, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to have to navigate it. And I remember, you know,
Speaker 2: because I was saying in the last episode, I'm quite
Speaker 2: tall and have long arms and long legs, and my
Speaker 2: father's not necessarily that tall, but my little girl had
Speaker 2: these long arms, and I thought, oh, is that going
Speaker 2: to be a way for them to find out? And
Speaker 2: I was worried about that. I was worried about nothing
Speaker 2: to do with me, but the protection of my daughter.
Speaker 2: And as strange as it is, as it is and
Speaker 2: hard to comprehend, the protect of my stepmother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you articulated how that came about in episode one.
Speaker 1: Looking at it, Yeah, some of the happiest, proudest, most
Speaker 1: significant moments in anyone's life. I think if you ask anyone,
Speaker 1: they'll say the day my child was born. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: seems to be a narrative that everyone rolls out. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to comprehend. You must have had that overwhelming, that
Speaker 1: emotion that it's hard to describe the emotion of seeing
Speaker 1: someone that's part of you that's now there, but also
Speaker 1: knowing that you can't publicly celebrate that talk to anyone
Speaker 1: about it. What was going through your head when you
Speaker 1: walked in there, and those type of mixed emotions that
Speaker 1: you're having.
Speaker 2: Just as you said, the mixed emotions, an intense amount
Speaker 2: of confusion and an intense amount of shame. I felt
Speaker 2: as though I played a significant role in this happening,
Speaker 2: as well, we had a child behind my father's back.
Speaker 2: Not I was sexually abused. I thought I engaged in
Speaker 2: a consensual relationship with my stepmother and we had this
Speaker 2: child behind his back, and now we've got to try
Speaker 2: navigate that situation of pretending no, that's actually my sister.
Speaker 2: So it was the weight of that stress and that
Speaker 2: toll on a fifteen year old boy. It's immense, it's unimaginable.
Speaker 2: The fact I'm standing here today is quite a testament
Speaker 2: to my own resilience. And yeah, it was just, it
Speaker 2: was just, it was just a looming weight that I
Speaker 2: knew I had to put my head down and get
Speaker 2: through and survive.
Speaker 1: Use the word shame, and I've heard so many people
Speaker 1: come on this podcast that have been victims of child
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and it surprises me and shocks me. I
Speaker 1: understand it. But you're made to feel like you're guilty
Speaker 1: of doing something. Do you want to just talk us
Speaker 1: through an understanding of shame because you not on your
Speaker 1: own and that's that's why this crime is so horrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as you said, shame is a constant throughout
Speaker 2: survivors of child sexual abuse. They were made to feel
Speaker 2: as though they played a significant role in what happened,
Speaker 2: and part of it is because of that expert manipulation
Speaker 2: that perpetrators employ. It's part of the playbook, their playbook,
Speaker 2: it's part of their standard method to ensure that they're victims.
Speaker 2: What they're trying to do is make sure that they
Speaker 2: want their victims to feel as though they're on an
Speaker 2: equal playing field with them. They're invested in they're invested
Speaker 2: in it, and they groomy and coercial, not with explicitly
Speaker 2: with language and you know, making you feel loved and
Speaker 2: making you feel like they entrap you in that and
Speaker 2: you're swept up in the moment.
Speaker 1: And you're looking for that love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're looking for that because they create that entire
Speaker 2: ecosystem where they can provide that love, but they can
Speaker 2: also provide you know, they provide everything to you, and
Speaker 2: that shame. It's very common because it's it's part of
Speaker 2: degrading the victim and making them sort of you're degrading them,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, you're also building the victims
Speaker 2: up to ensure that they feel as though they're they're
Speaker 2: part of it as well, that they're on eat that
Speaker 2: the level the playing fields a level, and perpetrators of
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse have to have to work to do
Speaker 2: that at length because the disparity between adult and child
Speaker 2: is so distinct, like even visually, you know you can
Speaker 2: see it, so they have to work even harder. It's
Speaker 2: not like I'm not taking away the severity of it,
Speaker 2: but like an adult relationship where domestic violence or coercion
Speaker 2: make coercive control maker, you know that the playing field
Speaker 2: is so uneven. So child sexual abuse defenders have to
Speaker 2: work to to level that and make those victims like
Speaker 2: me feel as.
Speaker 1: Though bringing those victims up feel like they've got skin
Speaker 1: in the game, and if this blows up, we're all
Speaker 1: in trouble exactly. That's horrible. So you were saying in
Speaker 1: part one that your daughter came home and you're pretending
Speaker 1: that it was your sister, that that was a breaking
Speaker 1: point where you had to move away from the place
Speaker 1: there was resentment of your father because he would have
Speaker 1: been strutting around a look as a proud father of
Speaker 1: the newborn. You said, the relationship then with your daughter
Speaker 1: became the calling around, taking her down to the beach,
Speaker 1: playing with her as if she was your sister.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was sort of the older brother, you know,
Speaker 2: coming over, just being a great older brother, a really
Speaker 2: involved older brother. And that's sort of the narrative that
Speaker 2: I played for many, many years. Yeah, taking my girl
Speaker 2: to the beach and taking her out for ice cream.
Speaker 2: I'd pick her up from her preschool sometimes and walk
Speaker 2: her back home before I go to back to where
Speaker 2: I was living at the time. And yeah, that was
Speaker 2: sort of because the sexual abuse seeks when I was sixteen?
Speaker 1: How did that stop? Can I just ask how? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What was the line in the scene that?
Speaker 2: Of course? I actually I just remember the final moment
Speaker 2: being a sexual act that took place on my sixteenth birthday,
Speaker 2: and it sort of just seesed after that. It's sort
Speaker 2: of there was a Again, it's confusing to explain, it's
Speaker 2: probably going to take a lot to unpack, but there
Speaker 2: was a trip to the Philippines where we wanted to
Speaker 2: show the newborn my newborn daughter. My father and my
Speaker 2: stepmother want to show what they thought was their newborn
Speaker 2: daughter to all my stepmothers half of the family and
Speaker 2: the Philippines. I joined them for that trip. There was
Speaker 2: and I haven't spoken up publicly about this before, but
Speaker 2: there was a second perpetrator a woman when I was
Speaker 2: sixteen who sexually abused me. As second time I was
Speaker 2: raped by a different woman over in the Philippines. Yep.
Speaker 2: And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to sort
Speaker 2: of get out of dodge by saying that I cheated
Speaker 2: on her. Yeah, okay, that's when the relationship ended, or
Speaker 2: I say relationship in quotation marks. But that's when the
Speaker 2: sexual abuse ceased. And then from that point on when
Speaker 2: we got back home to Australia, the dynamic was, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm just you know, fathering. You know, we're co parenting.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've gone over the Philippines, the sexual abuse
Speaker 1: was still continuing after the child was born. After your
Speaker 1: daughter was born, then there's a woman over there. And
Speaker 1: then on the basis of that, and again you're a
Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy, sixteen year old boy in that
Speaker 1: environment and taking the anti job. Then the step mother
Speaker 1: has manipulated that by pointing the finger at you accusing
Speaker 1: you cheated on me. So that was an excuse to
Speaker 1: get out of dodge, right as in in the relationship,
Speaker 1: this is outrageous. How could you cheat on me? Do
Speaker 1: you think it was all part of her manipulation. Definitely hindsight,
Speaker 1: of course, it will set you up for it. Basically,
Speaker 1: of course it was. It was an opportunity for her
Speaker 1: to you know, maybe, and again I'm.
Speaker 2: Just sort of speculating me as her mindset. I can't
Speaker 2: clarify for sure, but maybe it was her thinking her
Speaker 2: and I were getting sort of too close to teetering
Speaker 2: on the edge of being caught. Maybe she thought, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were teetering on that edge just too closely, so
Speaker 2: she wanted to cease it and sort of try to
Speaker 2: change the dynamic of the relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm looking through my suspicious mind as a former cop.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking what she was setting up there, that the
Speaker 1: bullshit that she been telling you for those years, you're
Speaker 1: becoming more You're brought into it and actually believing it.
Speaker 1: And I would suggest that she'd start to think, well,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be able to cut this off
Speaker 1: because you're actually going to start putting on her. Well,
Speaker 1: when are we running away to raise our daughter. I
Speaker 1: think that she's looked at that there's the safest.
Speaker 2: Way to way to get out of that accountability.
Speaker 1: The manipulation of the seat is just despicable, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's just through the roof. I don't even know another
Speaker 2: way to articulate. Gary, It's just such evil, just just
Speaker 2: pure evil.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're talking.
Speaker 2: I've never spoken about that.
Speaker 1: No, Well, I appreciate you with your honesty, and I
Speaker 1: think the way that you are explaining the situation that
Speaker 1: what's happened to you, people can understand what you've gone through.
Speaker 1: Like I'm sitting here and I keep thinking back and
Speaker 1: when we took a break of speaking of the producer
Speaker 1: and we're talking about you went through all this as
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old. What you were dealing with. How
Speaker 1: hard that is to process all the emotions and things
Speaker 1: that are going through your mind at that stage.
Speaker 2: Very very adult situations that are sort of imposed upon
Speaker 2: a child. It's a very strange dynamic to be living
Speaker 2: that through, and not even adult situations that normal adults
Speaker 2: go through as well. It's very toxic and awful.
Speaker 1: No, that's an extreme situation to go through as an
Speaker 1: adult with all the things that adulthood prepares you to
Speaker 1: deal with the things that happen in life. So you've
Speaker 1: come back from the Philippines after that, the dynamics have
Speaker 1: changed and you've moved out of.
Speaker 2: The house correct with another relative.
Speaker 1: You're back here, sixteen. The sexual abuse with your stepmother
Speaker 1: has stopped. You're living in another house. You're keeping a
Speaker 1: relationship with your daughter under the pretense that's your sister.
Speaker 1: It's your sister. Was there some joy in that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, tell us about that, because yeah, we're focused
Speaker 1: on the negative. But there's something beautiful in the world
Speaker 1: that your daughter's coming with.
Speaker 2: This little girl and is just the light of my life.
Speaker 2: And I haven't seen her for many years now. Those
Speaker 2: moments that I did have with her were just so
Speaker 2: special and just so so lovely and beautiful, and you know,
Speaker 2: all I wanted to do, even as a sixteen, seventeen
Speaker 2: year old boy, eighteen year old, but just dealing with
Speaker 2: this and navigating it, I just wanted to ensure that
Speaker 2: she had the best and provide that because I knew
Speaker 2: that the life that I was living was chaotic. I
Speaker 2: didn't think it was. I felt comfortable in the chaos
Speaker 2: because I was privy to it, like that's what I
Speaker 2: was exposed to. But I knew it wasn't. I knew
Speaker 2: it wasn't what a child should be brought up in.
Speaker 2: And even then, I wanted to take on the mantle
Speaker 2: of being her father and sort of provide as much
Speaker 2: as I possibly could with the means I had at
Speaker 2: the time. And she was witty and funny even as
Speaker 2: a little girl, and just quick, and I just loved
Speaker 2: everything about her. And I cannot wait for the day
Speaker 2: that we get to reunite and come back together and
Speaker 2: I can explain to her that this wasn't her fault.
Speaker 1: And they explained to her how much you love her
Speaker 1: and how special she is in your life. How old
Speaker 1: was she when you last saw her?
Speaker 2: She was three? There she turns she turns nine this year.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot big part to miss out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're going going going through that as a
Speaker 1: three year old button. You're seeing the personnel that you're
Speaker 1: seeing the character they are. So you've got those those men.
Speaker 1: I see the smile on their face, so clearly she
Speaker 1: she went over a dad. Yes, pretty easy, and she I.
Speaker 2: Mean it of it should have, you know, struck a
Speaker 2: few chords at the time. But she looked like her
Speaker 2: dad too. So I'm glad there's two good looking individuals.
Speaker 1: That's that's great, And I'm glad you can take some
Speaker 1: joy from what you've been for you deserve some joy,
Speaker 1: so you shouldn't You shouldn't try and hold back on
Speaker 1: it now. Of course it's special, and yeah, that sexual
Speaker 1: abuse cheated you of something very very special. Yeah, at Tarmi.
Speaker 2: It did, it did. And you know, as you were saying,
Speaker 2: you know, most parents attribute one of the best days
Speaker 2: of their lives as when their kids are first born.
Speaker 2: For me, even that part of it was taken stolen
Speaker 2: from you. So I just look forward to the day
Speaker 2: that I can provide for that little girl and give
Speaker 2: her the life that I know she deserves.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sitting here looking at you and listening to
Speaker 1: you as a twenty four year old man. I think
Speaker 1: you've got big things ahead of you. So it wouldn't
Speaker 1: surprise me if that plays the way it should be,
Speaker 1: because I think it's amazing the way that you've come
Speaker 1: through such a difficult path.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: So at nineteen, what's your relationship with your father between
Speaker 1: the ages of sixteen and nineteen?
Speaker 2: Is that strained quite minimal but it operated better at
Speaker 2: a distance. It was. It was problematic when we were
Speaker 2: sort of under the same roof, and that as I
Speaker 2: was saying, you know, because the reason my father and
Speaker 2: I where it was was because of the dynamic that
Speaker 2: my stepmother put us in. You know, it's the only
Speaker 2: way we were like that and still to this day,
Speaker 2: why me and my father just because of the dynamic
Speaker 2: that my stepmother has put us.
Speaker 1: Like you're seeing the manipulation that she was imposed on you.
Speaker 1: You can only imagine what game she was playing with
Speaker 1: him too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and you know, for all my father's faults
Speaker 2: and he's not the greatest individual in the world, but
Speaker 2: I can understand where she has manipulated him and what
Speaker 2: she's been putting in his era as well. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: just would twist his head as well, So I acknowledge that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's bigger for you to be able
Speaker 1: to see that side of it, because she's not going
Speaker 1: to just manipulate one person. You're quite right that I
Speaker 1: should call it the evil step mother because starting that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she even stooped, not even lower, but another act that
Speaker 1: was despicable. And do you want to tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Of course, So at nineteen years of age, so this
Speaker 2: would have been twenty nineteen for me, she wanted to
Speaker 2: leave my father. The reasons I don't know I wasn't
Speaker 2: president in the house, and you know, me being the
Speaker 2: sort of co parent of my daughter, you know, I
Speaker 2: wanted to ensure that the mother of my child was Okay,
Speaker 2: that's my thinking out.
Speaker 1: Of time, I understand.
Speaker 2: So okay, Well I presented these opportunities, like these ideas,
Speaker 2: I said, oh we can. I'm still under this coersion.
Speaker 2: I still think I was in a relationship even at nineteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I hadn't got the help yet. You hadn't
Speaker 1: dealt with that. So your emotional growth is stunted from
Speaker 1: the time you started getting sexually abused. It hasn't really progressed.
Speaker 2: No, not at this point. And so she wanted to
Speaker 2: leave my father. I get a call one day. I'm
Speaker 2: in my apartment. I lived by myself at this point.
Speaker 2: I get a call from my father saying, oh, can
Speaker 2: you go check the house. Can you go check on
Speaker 2: your stepmother and the baby, because I've got all these
Speaker 2: bank transactions on my thing, and can you just go
Speaker 2: check that they're there. I go there and all the
Speaker 2: cupboards are, everything's been taken out, everything strips, everything's been
Speaker 2: taken She's flown to the Philippines to evade to leave
Speaker 2: my father, So she knew that in order for her
Speaker 2: to have an opportunity to leave the country, she had
Speaker 2: to sort of wave the red flag somewhere else, and
Speaker 2: my dad would follow the red because he's likable. So
Speaker 2: what she's done is she's sent him an email that
Speaker 2: says that I raped her, meaning me, I raped my stepmother.
Speaker 2: And then I remember my father forwarding me that email,
Speaker 2: and he forwarded it to my biological mother as well,
Speaker 2: and then my biological mother called me and said, what's
Speaker 2: going on? And then I just was obviously in a
Speaker 2: state of I can't I cannot believe what's happened.
Speaker 1: Anyway, where do I start again?
Speaker 2: So my mother's picked me up and I said, and
Speaker 2: she said, Harry, is there anything you need to tell me?
Speaker 2: And I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat
Speaker 2: of a car. Wasn't looking at my mother, I was
Speaker 2: looking straight ahead, And I said, Mum, I was I
Speaker 2: engaged in an affair with my step mom behind Dad's back.
Speaker 2: And there's a higher possibility that my daughter or my
Speaker 2: sister could actually be my daughter. And that's the first
Speaker 2: time I ever told someone that's heavy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, how did your mum react?
Speaker 2: Oh? Her face dropped when as white as a ghost.
Speaker 2: I think there was potentially, and I'm I'm not accusing
Speaker 2: her of anything, but there was potentially a feeling that
Speaker 2: something was off, but she didn't feel that it went
Speaker 2: to that extent. And I think I just confirmed that
Speaker 2: sort of off feeling she had about me growing up
Speaker 2: in those teenage years, and that sort of dynamic I
Speaker 2: had with my stepmother. It was a bit off, but
Speaker 2: she could She never, in the wildest imagination thought it
Speaker 2: would have gone to that extent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the rape allegation, was it the formal complaint
Speaker 1: or was it just a hand grenade frone.
Speaker 2: Hand grenade thrown via that email in that in that email?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so how did your father deal with your response?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So when my mother picked me up, I knew
Speaker 2: that I wasn't safe being in my own apartment by myself,
Speaker 2: So I went and stayed with mum for a few days.
Speaker 2: And that's where me and mom sort of had like
Speaker 2: an ongoing conversation because this is blown up for her
Speaker 2: as well, and we're sort of trying to dictate what
Speaker 2: the best course of action is. And then that's where
Speaker 2: my mother went and approached my father and had a
Speaker 2: conversation with him and said, this has happened. I need
Speaker 2: you to you know, and that dynamic was sort of settled.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when did she say in the in the email
Speaker 1: when you supposedly raped her, was that it was just
Speaker 1: a broad just cause causes a drama. Yeah, your relationship
Speaker 1: with your father at that point in time, did you
Speaker 1: tell him after you told your mother what happened?
Speaker 2: I wanted to avoid it, but it got to a
Speaker 2: point where he came over to the house and sort
Speaker 2: of wanted to instigate a discussion to sort of make
Speaker 2: sense of what the hell happened. It was presented that
Speaker 2: this was many years in the possibility that or the
Speaker 2: very highly likely chance that my sister's actually my daughter.
Speaker 1: So when you adjusted with him on that occasion, did
Speaker 1: he accept it?
Speaker 2: It was honestly to his credit, and I don't like
Speaker 2: to give him credit that much, but it was. It
Speaker 2: was quite It was just taken with a sense of
Speaker 2: shock and a sense of just that dynamic that we
Speaker 2: were talking about before, where like like he thought that
Speaker 2: I engaged in it, and he went, oh, just like
Speaker 2: it was really interesting point in time where it wasn't reactive.
Speaker 2: It was just he was actually.
Speaker 1: Quite it's sobered him trying to the full.
Speaker 2: And then he went away and then sort of obviously
Speaker 2: there's been a thing where she's gotten in his about
Speaker 2: what happened because he's been presented with facts, he's obviously
Speaker 2: taking it to her. She's shown her side of it,
Speaker 2: and he's changed his viewpoint since then.
Speaker 1: As in taking her side. Yeah, she's a master manipulator,
Speaker 1: isn't she?
Speaker 2: She is? Indeed.
Speaker 1: I just want to read something about this is one
Speaker 1: of the interviews you've done about the impact it had
Speaker 1: on you, and I think it sort of encapsulates what
Speaker 1: you were going through. I'd got to a point where
Speaker 1: I wanted to take my own life. I was twenty,
Speaker 1: my daughter had been taken from me, I was falsely
Speaker 1: accused of rape. I had the memories of what had
Speaker 1: happened to me as a child. That's a lot for
Speaker 1: someone to take on board. I got to the point
Speaker 1: where I just couldn't handle it. So that's a fairly
Speaker 1: honest account. And this is so you were saying nineteen
Speaker 1: when the allegation, So you're talking here twenty do you
Speaker 1: want to just explain what was going through? Just were
Speaker 1: you overwhelmed with everything, that you lost your daughter, your
Speaker 1: daughter had gone the Philippines, you've got the issue with
Speaker 1: your father, you've been accused of rape. Lives. Yeah, pretty shit.
Speaker 2: It's not great. I mean in that quote you read that,
Speaker 2: it's pretty much just how it was. I mean, for me,
Speaker 2: the most devastating consequence of this abuse carry has been
Speaker 2: losing my daughter and I still haven't seen her to
Speaker 2: this day from that point that she left in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: But just you lose your daughter, you're falsely accused of rape,
Speaker 2: you'll come into the realization that what actually happened to
Speaker 2: you was not a relationship, it was an abuse. It
Speaker 2: was blatant abuse and a total stripping of your teenage
Speaker 2: years and childhood. And that's when I entered a mental
Speaker 2: health facility at twenty because I came up with the
Speaker 2: plan to end my life on a Friday, and I said,
Speaker 2: I'm going to have my final weekend and I was
Speaker 2: going to do it on the Monday. I remember going
Speaker 2: out the Friday and the Saturday night just took was drinking,
Speaker 2: took anything I could, and got to the point on
Speaker 2: Sunday where I sort of had like this vision of
Speaker 2: my mother finding me and I couldn't deal with that.
Speaker 2: I couldn't I didn't want to put her through that.
Speaker 2: So there was actually on the same road that I
Speaker 2: lived on, there was a mental health clinic and I
Speaker 2: checked myself in that Sunday evening before the Monday. I
Speaker 2: was going to carry through the plan that I had, well, yeah.
Speaker 1: To get to that, to get to that point, to
Speaker 1: even contemplate that, yeah, what you're going through, it was
Speaker 1: just overwhelmed. And is that that low point was because
Speaker 1: you came to the realization that you had been abused.
Speaker 1: The whole way that you've been looking at your life
Speaker 1: was delusional up until that point, with the relationship and
Speaker 1: everything else, and it all just caught up with you.
Speaker 1: Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So my mother between that year of nineteen when they
Speaker 2: fled and twenty of where I got into the mental
Speaker 2: health ward, my mother, you know, really really urged me
Speaker 2: to go get getzo therapy. Yeah, and they really did
Speaker 2: assist me with coming to that realization that what happened
Speaker 2: was not a relationship, it was sexual abuse. And that's
Speaker 2: quite it's very confronting, and it just it drove me
Speaker 2: to that point where I didn't want to be here anymore.
Speaker 2: And I needed more extensive help to assist me through
Speaker 2: that period, and it was the best decision I ever
Speaker 2: made going to that mental health facility, because it really
Speaker 2: gave me the tools to one articulate what I went through.
Speaker 2: It gave me the language to actually explain what I
Speaker 2: was going through, and hindsight's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but with hindsight, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: But it also gave me the tools to navigate the
Speaker 2: trauma if it ever came up again. So I was
Speaker 2: in that mental health ward for about two months.
Speaker 1: And clearly, the way you're talking about it, it was
Speaker 1: beneficial for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, undoubtedly it was single handedly one of the best
Speaker 2: decisions I've ever made.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think if you went early on that
Speaker 1: you could have addressed the same situation or did you
Speaker 1: need that life experience in that age and that wisdom
Speaker 1: to deal with it at that point in time.
Speaker 2: I just don't think it was a possibility for me,
Speaker 2: Gary to go before that point, because I was just
Speaker 2: under such coercion and just such manipulation and such a
Speaker 2: facade of what I was told, like a relationship was
Speaker 2: presented to me, and that's all I knew.
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. I think you're basically saying, well,
Speaker 1: it was a relationship. We all have problems in relationships,
Speaker 1: and this was just so I was going through a
Speaker 1: relationship situation and it didn't you hadn't dawned on you. No,
Speaker 1: this was not a relationship. Not abuse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not at all, not until that point. I've seen
Speaker 2: those therapists for that year and then getting to a
Speaker 2: point where it really dawned on me and the weight
Speaker 2: of it all, especially losing my daughter like that, that
Speaker 2: really plagued me, and it just got it. It all
Speaker 2: came to a head.
Speaker 1: That's another level that adds to the trauma is the daughter.
Speaker 1: And it's clear the way you speak about your daughter,
Speaker 1: the love that you've got for her and the impact
Speaker 1: that she's had on your life.
Speaker 2: Undoubtedly.
Speaker 1: So you've come out, two months, you spent getting help,
Speaker 1: you came out. But I would imagine, and I'm just
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm not sure you clarify it. I would
Speaker 1: imagine that doesn't mean you walk out in your heel
Speaker 1: and the problem's gone. You still live with it daily.
Speaker 1: You just have the tools to address exactly right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you've articulated that perfectly. It's you don't
Speaker 2: come out and you know all is good. You come
Speaker 2: out and you're you're sort of continuing to navigate it,
Speaker 2: but you've just got the proper tools to assist you
Speaker 2: in navigating it. Because it's it's quite quite an ordeal
Speaker 2: that I have to say, it's the understatement of the
Speaker 2: year probably yeah, yeah, but it's quite an ideal that
Speaker 2: I've got to navigate and to have that assistance and
Speaker 2: to have that support, and to know that I can
Speaker 2: always go back to that as well. I have that
Speaker 2: safety net behind me no matter what happens. That's a
Speaker 2: real privilege that I possess.
Speaker 1: It's something that you have in your back pocket, isn't it.
Speaker 1: If you need to need to pull it out, you
Speaker 1: know there's a way to get help which will hopefully
Speaker 1: stop your spiraling or feeling like that you're on your own.
Speaker 1: So how did life look to you after you came out.
Speaker 2: I remember coming out as twenty twenty and I just
Speaker 2: had this little bit little bit of hope. You know,
Speaker 2: there was a little bit of light at the end
Speaker 2: of the tunnel. Wasn't perfect, but there was a little
Speaker 2: bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and
Speaker 2: you know, I was sort of coming to terms with
Speaker 2: the fact that I didn't really identify as a survivor
Speaker 2: or anything that's about that, But I just didn't really
Speaker 2: I was coming to terms with what happened and just
Speaker 2: trying to articulate my experiences and sort of navigate that.
Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty one, Grace Tame One Australia
Speaker 2: the year and I saw an individual who went through
Speaker 2: something similar on the national stage and that was a
Speaker 2: real poignant moment for me to see that. And then
Speaker 2: it's sort of just instilled in me that I think
Speaker 2: I have the tools and the wherewithal to advocate in
Speaker 2: my own way as well. I didn't know what that
Speaker 2: looked like at the time, but I knew that I
Speaker 2: wanted to help people. And it wasn't until a couple
Speaker 2: of years until I actually publicly spoke about my story
Speaker 2: for the first time, until twenty twenty two. But throughout
Speaker 2: those throughout those few years, you know, just navigating it
Speaker 2: and just making sure I was okay before I could
Speaker 2: help other people.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's interesting you mentioned the Grace and the type
Speaker 1: of things that you're doing here. I've got to say, Grace,
Speaker 1: when she was here in the studio was one of
Speaker 1: the most impressive people I've had the pleasure to interview.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1: I was scared she came in because she's pretty pretty intimidating,
Speaker 1: but had a lot of fun and the way she
Speaker 1: articulated things. And I think it's great that the stance
Speaker 1: that Grace took and the impact that's had on it
Speaker 1: helped you, and I think the type of stuff that
Speaker 1: you're doing now can help you as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it not only helped me, helped countless individuals across
Speaker 2: this country that couldn't didn't have the courage to come forward.
Speaker 2: And that's not a bad thing upon them, but they
Speaker 2: just needed to see that. And what Grace did was
Speaker 2: she forged that path, you know, you know she ran
Speaker 2: so I could walk today with the advocacy that I
Speaker 2: that I'm able to do. You know, I stand on
Speaker 2: the shoulders of giants, of people like Grace and other
Speaker 2: individuals who have come before me. So I really like
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that in opportunities like this, when when I
Speaker 2: get asked that question of what your story was like,
Speaker 2: because it really was upon your moment. For me, it
Speaker 2: changed my life to see her when that award and
Speaker 2: say the speech she did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was powerful in so many ways. And I
Speaker 1: think with people like Grace speaking up about situations like that.
Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of working with Madeline West on
Speaker 1: the podcast series called Predatory where she came out about
Speaker 1: her child's sexual abuse. And again it's so powerful. And
Speaker 1: the work that Andrew Carpenter does, Shane Rattenberry, politician from Queensland,
Speaker 1: all these people are out there making a difference. Russell
Speaker 1: Manser survivory piece, Yeah, sadly passed away, but he was
Speaker 1: carrying a lot of pain from the sexual abuse he
Speaker 1: suffered in institutions. And I've got to say that I
Speaker 1: had no idea the impact that it has on the
Speaker 1: criminal world, the amount of people that have been through
Speaker 1: sexual abuse and then have gone down the wrong path.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking you know, some serious hardcore crooks, bikis
Speaker 1: and that that carry the pain of being victims of
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. So for each and every one of
Speaker 1: you speaking out, I think it makes difference. And I
Speaker 1: see there's an honor having this platform to allow people
Speaker 1: like yourself come on and tell your stories.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, And I couldn't agree more
Speaker 2: individuals like this, They change the discourse of the of
Speaker 2: the national conversation, and it's important that we as society
Speaker 2: as a community, and you're leading by example in doing that,
Speaker 2: by honoring that and by understanding that these are actually
Speaker 2: courageous and brave things to share these stories.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not about you know, that's right, and
Speaker 1: that's deeply personal, and you've got to expose a little
Speaker 1: bit of yourself and that makes you feel vulnerable coming
Speaker 1: out and talking about your emotions and what you went through.
Speaker 1: But no, I think each and every one of you
Speaker 1: are extremely courageous in the way that you approach it.
Speaker 1: Thank you in regards to your advocacy. Yes, let's talk
Speaker 1: about that. Let's get angry on the couple of things.
Speaker 1: The reference. Yeah, if you could explain that. Then we
Speaker 1: spoke briefly. PEP who have listened to the podcast would
Speaker 1: have heard as raise the fact that people who have
Speaker 1: been charged of sexually abusing children shouldn't be given the
Speaker 1: luxury of having the reference as to good character character reference.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. So in May of twenty twenty three, so
Speaker 2: I came out with my story publicly for the first time.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, and I sort of knew that
Speaker 2: I wanted to get involved with legislative reform because I
Speaker 2: knew it had a huge impact on people's lives, and
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to get involved in that, but
Speaker 2: I didn't know where it sort of lied or sort
Speaker 2: of how I was going to navigate it. So I
Speaker 2: spent a year just sort of really building my connections
Speaker 2: within the space. I'd attend you know, talks and seminars
Speaker 2: and all that, and sort of just build connections. And
Speaker 2: so when I knew I wanted to pursue legislative change,
Speaker 2: I would you have people that could support me through that.
Speaker 2: And this thing of good character references just always irked
Speaker 2: me as such, such an injustice. How can you be
Speaker 2: of character and commit that type of crime. It's ridiculous,
Speaker 2: defeat the purpose. So when I spoke out as a
Speaker 2: survivor of child sexual abuse and wanted to change the
Speaker 2: laws surround pertaining to child sexual abuse, I said, surely
Speaker 2: there's no way that good character references are allowed for
Speaker 2: these types of criminals. There's surely no way. And I
Speaker 2: went through the legislation and was researching and researching, and
Speaker 2: lo and behold, I find this sort of strange quirk
Speaker 2: in the law. And right now, what the current legislation
Speaker 2: is doing is it's prohibiting certain individuals, certain child sex offenders,
Speaker 2: from using good character references, but it's allowing a whole
Speaker 2: other class of individuals to do it. And the reason
Speaker 2: it's like that was because the current law was introduced
Speaker 2: by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
Speaker 2: So at the moment, the individuals that are prohibited from
Speaker 2: using good character references are the teachers, the scoutmasters, the
Speaker 2: religious leaders, anyone who has out with good standing in
Speaker 2: the community had and utilize that outward good standing to
Speaker 2: facilitate the crime. But gary there's a whole other class
Speaker 2: of individuals that are still allowed to use these good
Speaker 2: character references, the stepmothers, the neighbors, the grandparents, the older brothers,
Speaker 2: the cousins, whatever it is. But our argument is that
Speaker 2: good standing, it's a cultivated and very calculated and deceitful
Speaker 2: good character that they cultivate that still allows them to
Speaker 2: facilitate that crime. And right now, in courts, in the sentencing,
Speaker 2: so this is the back end of courts, So they've
Speaker 2: already gone through a trial, a judges found them more
Speaker 2: one hundred percent guilty of committing this crime, and then
Speaker 2: they come back in the sentencing and they're getting these
Speaker 2: discounts essentially discount character because of their good character, but
Speaker 2: they're getting discounts on their sentences for the very thing
Speaker 2: that allowed them to facilitate the crime and commit the crime.
Speaker 2: So we're trying to extend the current legislation to encapsulate
Speaker 2: that category of offender as well, so no child sex
Speaker 2: offender can utilize a good character reference in the sense
Speaker 2: in procedure of court. And last year, in May of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, my campaign partner and I, Jared Grice,
Speaker 2: we started the hashtag your reference Ain't Relevant campaign and
Speaker 2: we started in our home state of New South Wales
Speaker 2: because we live here. We got involved and in touch
Speaker 2: with the Attorney General here in New South Wales, Attorney
Speaker 2: General Michael Daily. He initiated a review. The first review,
Speaker 2: you know, it resulted in total polarity from advocates and
Speaker 2: people who agreed with us and the legal community. So
Speaker 2: then we came back and Michael Daily, thank god he did,
Speaker 2: he started he instigated a second review with the New
Speaker 2: South Wales Sensing Council, which is currently underway, and he
Speaker 2: took it to the Standing Council of Attorney's General's meeting,
Speaker 2: which is the national meeting where all the ags of
Speaker 2: Attorney Generals from each jurisdiction come together to discuss national
Speaker 2: consistency when it comes to lawa form and that pretty
Speaker 2: much put us, single handedly put us on the national map.
Speaker 2: And this was something that was a relative obscurity. No
Speaker 2: person knew that a pedophile could use a good character reference.
Speaker 2: Now it's a core tenant of the national conversation because
Speaker 2: of the work that we've done, and we've been able
Speaker 2: to meet with the Attorney generals from each state in
Speaker 2: jurisdiction and we're continuing to meet more.
Speaker 1: Well, full credit to you for making that difference, and
Speaker 1: so people understand what we're dealing with. And you articulated
Speaker 1: very clearly pedophiles manipulate. That's how they build a trust.
Speaker 1: So to have someone coming in and saying, oh, well,
Speaker 1: look this person that was babysitting our children, they would
Speaker 1: always help. They'd come over and always offer to babysit
Speaker 1: the kids. That's not good character. That is basically put
Speaker 1: in the fact sheet. If I'm a cop, I'm putting
Speaker 1: that in the fact sheet, that's showing the tendency to
Speaker 1: create that environment where they can pray on people. So
Speaker 1: little things like that make a difference. And like you
Speaker 1: chip away, and I know how hard it is to
Speaker 1: change legislation and the resistance that comes from the legal
Speaker 1: fraternity and everything it's enshrined. It's hard, but that's the
Speaker 1: way we've always done it. Oh, you don't understand. And
Speaker 1: when you're trying to push changes in legislation, it's a battle.
Speaker 1: But full credit to you that you're getting it getting
Speaker 1: it to this stage.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And look, Jared
Speaker 2: and I and we have fantastic advocates that have come forward.
Speaker 2: You know, we've built this campaign and we understand that
Speaker 2: we have a responsibility to allow other abuse survivors to
Speaker 2: share their story. So we have a gentleman in the
Speaker 2: act by the names of Josh Burns. He shares his story.
Speaker 2: He's a fantastic individual. In South Australia, we have a
Speaker 2: Alyssa James who shares her story incredibly, just so bravely,
Speaker 2: just purely in the pursuit of change and wanting to
Speaker 2: make a difference. And it's really, really really important that
Speaker 2: we that the courts incorporate and understanding of how this
Speaker 2: crime operates, because as you said, there, you know, this
Speaker 2: is a good character. It is a weapon amongst their
Speaker 2: arsenal of deceit. It's part of the crime, and the
Speaker 2: courts have to understand that and encapsulate that in the sentence.
Speaker 1: I like saying, an armed robber that's got a bellaclava.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I think, let's it's.
Speaker 2: So ludicrous and backwards and we just need to get
Speaker 2: on the front foot of it and change it. And
Speaker 2: that's that's where my advocacy lies. It's where the good
Speaker 2: character references.
Speaker 1: That's okay, that's my thing. Keep pushing for it. The
Speaker 1: fact that you've connected with so many people that have
Speaker 1: got shared experiences, is that helpful for you?
Speaker 2: Of course? And just to see you know, I have
Speaker 2: a friend named Anna and she's a survivor as well,
Speaker 2: and you know, I get asked all these questions, how
Speaker 2: do you how do you deal with you know, survivors
Speaker 2: that are constantly telling you their stories, like it must
Speaker 2: be hard to hear these stories all the time, and
Speaker 2: to an extent it is. And you know, there's a
Speaker 2: thing called vicarious trauma. But my friend Anna, who's just amazing,
Speaker 2: she says, Harry, perception and mindset is so important, and
Speaker 2: you can view these stories as giving you vicarious trauma,
Speaker 2: or you can change that mindset and you can look
Speaker 2: at these survivors and you can think, my god, they're
Speaker 2: standing here on two feet after the adversity of they're faced,
Speaker 2: and there they're and they're pursuing these beautiful lives and
Speaker 2: doing these great things. That's vicarious resilience, and that's how
Speaker 2: I choose to view it now. Vicario is resilience. So
Speaker 2: it's something to see a survivor speaking about their story
Speaker 2: and coming forward so bravely and courageously and sharing their
Speaker 2: lived experience purely because they want to ensure that it
Speaker 2: doesn't happen to another kid. That builds me up. So
Speaker 2: it's it's sort of selfish why I do what I do,
Speaker 2: but it really does build me up.
Speaker 1: No, Well, you've every right to draw on those strengths.
Speaker 1: And I think when you refer to survivor a child
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, I think during this podcast, I've made reference
Speaker 1: to victims of child sexual abuse, and I've been pulled
Speaker 1: up on that before because the way you sity. You
Speaker 1: are a survivor, it's something to be proud. And the
Speaker 1: other people I've spoken to a survivors and they're warriors
Speaker 1: in their own way. They've overcome things that no child
Speaker 1: should have to go to. So it's something that you
Speaker 1: should be proud of. What other things that you got
Speaker 1: going on in your life?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I do the advocacy. I go around the country.
Speaker 2: I have the privilege of being able to speak. I
Speaker 2: get to do incredible opporneies like this. I have a
Speaker 2: I think called a substack account, so I write articles
Speaker 2: and people are more than welcome to engage and subscribe
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 1: How does that work and how can they access that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a web page. It's called Harrison James
Speaker 2: Activism Unfiltered and it's just me being able to express
Speaker 2: my thought and sort of give my thought provoking commentary
Speaker 2: on situations. And yeah, they can go to substack dot
Speaker 2: it's Harry James dot com and sort of subscribe to
Speaker 2: be a part of those articles and read up on them.
Speaker 2: But also social media is a big thing for me
Speaker 2: as well. And that's essentially how the campaign that your
Speaker 2: reference Ain't relevant campaign, That's how it's been able to
Speaker 2: get to the point that it's at now because of
Speaker 2: the social media and just sort of people are able
Speaker 2: to engage, and yeah, the impact of it, it's been
Speaker 2: really remarkable. And never in a million years do I
Speaker 2: think you know the kid that was going through what
Speaker 2: he did at thirteen and fourteen fifteen years old would
Speaker 2: go on to be a voice and be quite a
Speaker 2: not blow smoke up my own ass, but quite quite
Speaker 2: a big voice.
Speaker 1: A powerful, powerful voice. And I keep having to check
Speaker 1: myself that you're twenty four years old, But you did
Speaker 1: say during the podcast that you had your maturity went
Speaker 1: exponentially because of the speriences you've got. And I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here opposite a person that's speaking with so much wisdom
Speaker 1: that's way beyond twenty four years. So like, keep up
Speaker 1: and keep up the good work. Thank you your daughter,
Speaker 1: future hopes plans. Do you hope to at some stage
Speaker 1: reconnect with your daughter? I know in one of the
Speaker 1: many articles I've read about you, you've said you have
Speaker 1: to check yourself time and time again not to get
Speaker 1: on the plane and go over there and see her,
Speaker 1: but again for the person that you are, the quality
Speaker 1: of the person that you are, you've said that you
Speaker 1: don't want to cause confusion in her life at such
Speaker 1: an early age where she's not ready to deal with it.
Speaker 1: So talk us through your hopes about the future there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, I hope more than anything that I'll
Speaker 2: be able to reunite with my daughter. It's such a
Speaker 2: it's imperative that I do, you know, because it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I've been stripped of a daughter, and you know I
Speaker 2: talk about that quite a bit. But also at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, Gary, that little girl's been stripped
Speaker 2: of a father as well, and she'll never get those
Speaker 2: years back because of what my stepmother decided to do.
Speaker 2: And it's the shame and the guilt. It falls squarely
Speaker 2: at my stepmother's feet. And I hope that one day.
Speaker 2: You know, my daughter turns nine this year. It's there's
Speaker 2: never going to be a right time to have this conversation,
Speaker 2: but right now is the least right time. It's not
Speaker 2: appropriate for me, as you said. You know, I've said
Speaker 2: in articles before. You know, I fight the urge every
Speaker 2: single morning to get that first flight to the Philippines
Speaker 2: to pick her right back up and bring her home
Speaker 2: to safety where I know she's going to be safe
Speaker 2: with me. But if I go over there that confusion
Speaker 2: that I'm going to impose upon her. There's already been
Speaker 2: one childhood that's been corrupted. I want to ensure as
Speaker 2: a father that I do everything in my power to
Speaker 2: impose the least amount of pain upon my daughter this
Speaker 2: with this situation that neither her or I ask for.
Speaker 2: So I really hope that there's a day where, you know,
Speaker 2: she'll and if she's anything like her father, she'll ask
Speaker 2: questions and she'll be curious and want to find out.
Speaker 2: And I not only do I hope, but I know
Speaker 2: that there will be a day where we reunite because
Speaker 2: I'm going to ensure that it happens because it's really
Speaker 2: important to me that I'm able to establish a connection
Speaker 2: with her, and I hope that's reciprocated on her. And
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what she's been told or
Speaker 2: or will be told in the in the period of
Speaker 2: time that I don't see her, But all I can
Speaker 2: hope is that she she and I can come can
Speaker 2: reunite and come together with an understanding of what's happened
Speaker 2: and an empathy. And I just hope that I can
Speaker 2: educate her on that and assist her through through her
Speaker 2: own trauma that she's inevitably going to face. By coming
Speaker 2: to terms with this, It's going to be very traumatic
Speaker 2: for that girl, and I recognize that, and as a
Speaker 2: father and someone who has been through pain myself, I
Speaker 2: want to be able to help her navigate that. And
Speaker 2: I hope that day comes.
Speaker 1: Well, just the way that you've described that. I think,
Speaker 1: hang on to a recording of what you just said
Speaker 1: in the last five minutes and send that to your
Speaker 1: daughter at the right stage, and she'll know how much
Speaker 1: she is loved and how special a father is. So
Speaker 1: I think you'll get that message across. And there's something
Speaker 1: about you, there's that X factor that I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: things will work out. And I want to say this
Speaker 1: in wrapping up. I'm just it's people like you that
Speaker 1: inspire me, like people that have experienced situations and that
Speaker 1: just come through the resilience and the way that you've
Speaker 1: come through and the balance view that you've got on
Speaker 1: what's happened and the way that you accepted. I think
Speaker 1: anyone that listens to your story will be inspired, shocked
Speaker 1: by what you've been through, but also inspired and educated.
Speaker 1: So the work that you're doing. Get out there to
Speaker 1: as many people and speak to as many people as
Speaker 1: you can, because I think you've got a really powerful
Speaker 1: message that is making a difference.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Garry. That means the world. And just to
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to come on here and share that message,
Speaker 2: it means the world. And you're doing phenomenal work by
Speaker 2: allowing individuals like me to come on here and share
Speaker 2: those stories. So again, just a debt of gratitude to
Speaker 2: thank you so much.
Speaker 1: It's an honor.
Speaker 2: All the best, Thank you, cheers.
Speaker 1: I know the world's a good place when you have
Speaker 1: someone like Harrison James advocating for survivors as child's sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: What he went through was horrendous, But the way he's
Speaker 1: come through and the way he articulates his own experience
Speaker 1: and the help that he's trying to provide others by
Speaker 1: talking about this hideous crime, I think is inspirational. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed sitting down having to chat with him, and
Speaker 1: I just found him a fascinating person and what a
Speaker 1: great outlook he has on life.
Speaker 2: Nine