1
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,960
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

3
00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

4
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

5
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,280
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

6
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

7
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

8
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,840
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

11
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

12
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

13
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

14
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two, our check on the eye

15
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 1: catch killers. For those of you that didn't hear part one,

16
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 1: Harry told us about his experience of being sexually abused

17
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,920
Speaker 1: by his stepmother from the ages of thirteen to sixteen.

18
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 1: Delving in really deep, I got to say, like the

19
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,400
Speaker 1: emotional trauma and everything else, the impact that has on

20
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: your life and the way that you articulated, And I

21
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: asked you during the break, how old you are. You're

22
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 1: only twenty four. If you speak with a lot of

23
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: wisdom for a twenty four year old.

24
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when we share these stories,

25
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,760
Speaker 2: it's not about just sharing it for the sake of

26
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 2: sharing trauma. It's about sharing it because you know, I

27
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 2: want people to be able to pick up lessons from this,

28
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,520
Speaker 2: to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to ensure that

29
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 2: the next kid doesn't even experience it, doesn't experience even

30
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 2: a tenth of what I had to.

31
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 1: Well, I think with people like yourself coming out and

32
00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 1: speaking about these things, because the trouble with child sexual abuse,

33
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,640
Speaker 1: it gets swept under the cup so much. Because it's

34
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: such a confronting subject, people don't want to talk about

35
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,960
Speaker 1: it and will avoid at all costs. So when someone

36
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: like yourself is prepared to come out and say put

37
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 1: your hand up and say, hey, this happened to me,

38
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 1: this is the impact on me, I think a lot

39
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 1: of people listening will start the dawn on what we're

40
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 1: talking about with child's sexual abuse, because it's very easy

41
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,519
Speaker 1: just to put it, sweep it under the carpet and

42
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,240
Speaker 1: forget about it.

43
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easy. It's unfortunately the way that you know,

44
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 2: society has treated the subject matter of child sexual abuse.

45
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,840
Speaker 2: It's you're right, it's allowed people to it's given people

46
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 2: license to turn a blind eye to it. And you know,

47
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 2: individuals like me or other activists who are out in

48
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 2: the space, you know, really speaking about these issues. I

49
00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 2: think for me, what I find is my job is

50
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,080
Speaker 2: to pull that narrative back and that belief back and

51
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 2: say no, we have to sit, we have to listen,

52
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,600
Speaker 2: we have to learn.

53
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're doing very well at getting people to

54
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 1: understand what you've gone through.

55
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 2: Thank you.

56
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 1: So we left part one that at the age of fifteen,

57
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: you found out that your step mother, who was sexually

58
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,720
Speaker 1: abusing you, had become pregnant. Your father heard that vaseectomy.

59
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: He was under the misguided belief that the child was his.

60
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,080
Speaker 1: I think you received a text when they are overseas

61
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 1: on the holiday, your father and your step mother in

62
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,360
Speaker 1: the Philippines, and she texts you and said that she

63
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 1: was pregnant. You're living in the same house, you're seeing

64
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 1: the step mother who's sexually abusing you, and sexual abuse

65
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem to be enough. It's the mental manipulation,

66
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: the psychological manipulation. What she was doing to you, basically

67
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 1: stuffing up your life, like changing your life, putting your

68
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 1: life in the direction that it shouldn't it shouldn't have gone.

69
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 1: You found out, you told us that you found out

70
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 1: that she had had the child when you're working doing

71
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 1: pre apprenticeship training as an electrician. Did you go to

72
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 1: the hospital?

73
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 2: I did, Yes, I did, And I remember walking in

74
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 2: there and the sort of weight of the reality of

75
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 2: what had happened really kicked in because the life, you know,

76
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 2: the life of that little girl was right there in

77
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 2: front of me. And I was, on one hand, because

78
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 2: of that scale of manipulation that occurred, you know, part

79
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 2: of me was really excited to be a father, but

80
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,320
Speaker 2: you know, the sexual abuse that I went through really

81
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:26,119
Speaker 2: sort of put my aging process into supercharge, so to speak.

82
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,600
Speaker 2: So I was, you know, wise beyond my years at

83
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,400
Speaker 2: that age, and I just thought, this is going to

84
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 2: be a real challenge for this girl, and I'm going

85
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 2: to have to navigate it. And I remember, you know,

86
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 2: because I was saying in the last episode, I'm quite

87
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,040
Speaker 2: tall and have long arms and long legs, and my

88
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 2: father's not necessarily that tall, but my little girl had

89
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 2: these long arms, and I thought, oh, is that going

90
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 2: to be a way for them to find out? And

91
00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 2: I was worried about that. I was worried about nothing

92
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:53,880
Speaker 2: to do with me, but the protection of my daughter.

93
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,440
Speaker 2: And as strange as it is, as it is and

94
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: hard to comprehend, the protect of my stepmother.

95
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you articulated how that came about in episode one.

96
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 1: Looking at it, Yeah, some of the happiest, proudest, most

97
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 1: significant moments in anyone's life. I think if you ask anyone,

98
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,000
Speaker 1: they'll say the day my child was born. Yeah, that

99
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 1: seems to be a narrative that everyone rolls out. I'm

100
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 1: trying to comprehend. You must have had that overwhelming, that

101
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,239
Speaker 1: emotion that it's hard to describe the emotion of seeing

102
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,719
Speaker 1: someone that's part of you that's now there, but also

103
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 1: knowing that you can't publicly celebrate that talk to anyone

104
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 1: about it. What was going through your head when you

105
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 1: walked in there, and those type of mixed emotions that

106
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: you're having.

107
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 2: Just as you said, the mixed emotions, an intense amount

108
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: of confusion and an intense amount of shame. I felt

109
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 2: as though I played a significant role in this happening,

110
00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,800
Speaker 2: as well, we had a child behind my father's back.

111
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 2: Not I was sexually abused. I thought I engaged in

112
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 2: a consensual relationship with my stepmother and we had this

113
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,080
Speaker 2: child behind his back, and now we've got to try

114
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 2: navigate that situation of pretending no, that's actually my sister.

115
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 2: So it was the weight of that stress and that

116
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,720
Speaker 2: toll on a fifteen year old boy. It's immense, it's unimaginable.

117
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 2: The fact I'm standing here today is quite a testament

118
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 2: to my own resilience. And yeah, it was just, it

119
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 2: was just, it was just a looming weight that I

120
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 2: knew I had to put my head down and get

121
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:38,960
Speaker 2: through and survive.

122
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 1: Use the word shame, and I've heard so many people

123
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,239
Speaker 1: come on this podcast that have been victims of child

124
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,920
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and it surprises me and shocks me. I

125
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 1: understand it. But you're made to feel like you're guilty

126
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,840
Speaker 1: of doing something. Do you want to just talk us

127
00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 1: through an understanding of shame because you not on your

128
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,480
Speaker 1: own and that's that's why this crime is so horrific.

129
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as you said, shame is a constant throughout

130
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 2: survivors of child sexual abuse. They were made to feel

131
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 2: as though they played a significant role in what happened,

132
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 2: and part of it is because of that expert manipulation

133
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 2: that perpetrators employ. It's part of the playbook, their playbook,

134
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 2: it's part of their standard method to ensure that they're victims.

135
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 2: What they're trying to do is make sure that they

136
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 2: want their victims to feel as though they're on an

137
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 2: equal playing field with them. They're invested in they're invested

138
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 2: in it, and they groomy and coercial, not with explicitly

139
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,680
Speaker 2: with language and you know, making you feel loved and

140
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 2: making you feel like they entrap you in that and

141
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 2: you're swept up in the moment.

142
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,120
Speaker 1: And you're looking for that love.

143
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're looking for that because they create that entire

144
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 2: ecosystem where they can provide that love, but they can

145
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 2: also provide you know, they provide everything to you, and

146
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,520
Speaker 2: that shame. It's very common because it's it's part of

147
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 2: degrading the victim and making them sort of you're degrading them,

148
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 2: but at the same time, you're also building the victims

149
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 2: up to ensure that they feel as though they're they're

150
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: part of it as well, that they're on eat that

151
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 2: the level the playing fields a level, and perpetrators of

152
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse have to have to work to do

153
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 2: that at length because the disparity between adult and child

154
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 2: is so distinct, like even visually, you know you can

155
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 2: see it, so they have to work even harder. It's

156
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,000
Speaker 2: not like I'm not taking away the severity of it,

157
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,439
Speaker 2: but like an adult relationship where domestic violence or coercion

158
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:55,600
Speaker 2: make coercive control maker, you know that the playing field

159
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,480
Speaker 2: is so uneven. So child sexual abuse defenders have to

160
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,600
Speaker 2: work to to level that and make those victims like

161
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 2: me feel as.

162
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: Though bringing those victims up feel like they've got skin

163
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 1: in the game, and if this blows up, we're all

164
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,040
Speaker 1: in trouble exactly. That's horrible. So you were saying in

165
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,880
Speaker 1: part one that your daughter came home and you're pretending

166
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000
Speaker 1: that it was your sister, that that was a breaking

167
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 1: point where you had to move away from the place

168
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,839
Speaker 1: there was resentment of your father because he would have

169
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 1: been strutting around a look as a proud father of

170
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,600
Speaker 1: the newborn. You said, the relationship then with your daughter

171
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 1: became the calling around, taking her down to the beach,

172
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 1: playing with her as if she was your sister.

173
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was sort of the older brother, you know,

174
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 2: coming over, just being a great older brother, a really

175
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 2: involved older brother. And that's sort of the narrative that

176
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 2: I played for many, many years. Yeah, taking my girl

177
00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 2: to the beach and taking her out for ice cream.

178
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 2: I'd pick her up from her preschool sometimes and walk

179
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 2: her back home before I go to back to where

180
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,000
Speaker 2: I was living at the time. And yeah, that was

181
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,600
Speaker 2: sort of because the sexual abuse seeks when I was sixteen?

182
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 1: How did that stop? Can I just ask how? Yeah?

183
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 1: What was the line in the scene that?

184
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 2: Of course? I actually I just remember the final moment

185
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 2: being a sexual act that took place on my sixteenth birthday,

186
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,440
Speaker 2: and it sort of just seesed after that. It's sort

187
00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 2: of there was a Again, it's confusing to explain, it's

188
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,559
Speaker 2: probably going to take a lot to unpack, but there

189
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 2: was a trip to the Philippines where we wanted to

190
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 2: show the newborn my newborn daughter. My father and my

191
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 2: stepmother want to show what they thought was their newborn

192
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,920
Speaker 2: daughter to all my stepmothers half of the family and

193
00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 2: the Philippines. I joined them for that trip. There was

194
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: and I haven't spoken up publicly about this before, but

195
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 2: there was a second perpetrator a woman when I was

196
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,599
Speaker 2: sixteen who sexually abused me. As second time I was

197
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 2: raped by a different woman over in the Philippines. Yep.

198
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,439
Speaker 2: And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to sort

199
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 2: of get out of dodge by saying that I cheated

200
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,960
Speaker 2: on her. Yeah, okay, that's when the relationship ended, or

201
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,560
Speaker 2: I say relationship in quotation marks. But that's when the

202
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,360
Speaker 2: sexual abuse ceased. And then from that point on when

203
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,360
Speaker 2: we got back home to Australia, the dynamic was, Oh,

204
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm just you know, fathering. You know, we're co parenting.

205
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've gone over the Philippines, the sexual abuse

206
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: was still continuing after the child was born. After your

207
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 1: daughter was born, then there's a woman over there. And

208
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: then on the basis of that, and again you're a

209
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy, sixteen year old boy in that

210
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 1: environment and taking the anti job. Then the step mother

211
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,840
Speaker 1: has manipulated that by pointing the finger at you accusing

212
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 1: you cheated on me. So that was an excuse to

213
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,960
Speaker 1: get out of dodge, right as in in the relationship,

214
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 1: this is outrageous. How could you cheat on me? Do

215
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,560
Speaker 1: you think it was all part of her manipulation. Definitely hindsight,

216
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,320
Speaker 1: of course, it will set you up for it. Basically,

217
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 1: of course it was. It was an opportunity for her

218
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,760
Speaker 1: to you know, maybe, and again I'm.

219
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:33,680
Speaker 2: Just sort of speculating me as her mindset. I can't

220
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,719
Speaker 2: clarify for sure, but maybe it was her thinking her

221
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 2: and I were getting sort of too close to teetering

222
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,800
Speaker 2: on the edge of being caught. Maybe she thought, yeah,

223
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 2: we were teetering on that edge just too closely, so

224
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,599
Speaker 2: she wanted to cease it and sort of try to

225
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 2: change the dynamic of the relationship.

226
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm looking through my suspicious mind as a former cop.

227
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking what she was setting up there, that the

228
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 1: bullshit that she been telling you for those years, you're

229
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 1: becoming more You're brought into it and actually believing it.

230
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 1: And I would suggest that she'd start to think, well,

231
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be able to cut this off

232
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,280
Speaker 1: because you're actually going to start putting on her. Well,

233
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: when are we running away to raise our daughter. I

234
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 1: think that she's looked at that there's the safest.

235
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,959
Speaker 2: Way to way to get out of that accountability.

236
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: The manipulation of the seat is just despicable, isn't it.

237
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 2: It's just through the roof. I don't even know another

238
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:40,400
Speaker 2: way to articulate. Gary, It's just such evil, just just

239
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 2: pure evil.

240
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 1: Okay, we're talking.

241
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 2: I've never spoken about that.

242
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 1: No, Well, I appreciate you with your honesty, and I

243
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,720
Speaker 1: think the way that you are explaining the situation that

244
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 1: what's happened to you, people can understand what you've gone through.

245
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: Like I'm sitting here and I keep thinking back and

246
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,680
Speaker 1: when we took a break of speaking of the producer

247
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 1: and we're talking about you went through all this as

248
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,199
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old. What you were dealing with. How

249
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: hard that is to process all the emotions and things

250
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,559
Speaker 1: that are going through your mind at that stage.

251
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 2: Very very adult situations that are sort of imposed upon

252
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 2: a child. It's a very strange dynamic to be living

253
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,680
Speaker 2: that through, and not even adult situations that normal adults

254
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 2: go through as well. It's very toxic and awful.

255
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 1: No, that's an extreme situation to go through as an

256
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,080
Speaker 1: adult with all the things that adulthood prepares you to

257
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 1: deal with the things that happen in life. So you've

258
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 1: come back from the Philippines after that, the dynamics have

259
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 1: changed and you've moved out of.

260
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 2: The house correct with another relative.

261
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 1: You're back here, sixteen. The sexual abuse with your stepmother

262
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 1: has stopped. You're living in another house. You're keeping a

263
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 1: relationship with your daughter under the pretense that's your sister.

264
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: It's your sister. Was there some joy in that? Yeah,

265
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 1: of course, tell us about that, because yeah, we're focused

266
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 1: on the negative. But there's something beautiful in the world

267
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 1: that your daughter's coming with.

268
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 2: This little girl and is just the light of my life.

269
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 2: And I haven't seen her for many years now. Those

270
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 2: moments that I did have with her were just so

271
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 2: special and just so so lovely and beautiful, and you know,

272
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 2: all I wanted to do, even as a sixteen, seventeen

273
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,520
Speaker 2: year old boy, eighteen year old, but just dealing with

274
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 2: this and navigating it, I just wanted to ensure that

275
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 2: she had the best and provide that because I knew

276
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 2: that the life that I was living was chaotic. I

277
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 2: didn't think it was. I felt comfortable in the chaos

278
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 2: because I was privy to it, like that's what I

279
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 2: was exposed to. But I knew it wasn't. I knew

280
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 2: it wasn't what a child should be brought up in.

281
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 2: And even then, I wanted to take on the mantle

282
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 2: of being her father and sort of provide as much

283
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 2: as I possibly could with the means I had at

284
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 2: the time. And she was witty and funny even as

285
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 2: a little girl, and just quick, and I just loved

286
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,960
Speaker 2: everything about her. And I cannot wait for the day

287
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 2: that we get to reunite and come back together and

288
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 2: I can explain to her that this wasn't her fault.

289
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,440
Speaker 1: And they explained to her how much you love her

290
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: and how special she is in your life. How old

291
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: was she when you last saw her?

292
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 2: She was three? There she turns she turns nine this year.

293
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot big part to miss out. Yeah,

294
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're going going going through that as a

295
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 1: three year old button. You're seeing the personnel that you're

296
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: seeing the character they are. So you've got those those men.

297
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,720
Speaker 1: I see the smile on their face, so clearly she

298
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 1: she went over a dad. Yes, pretty easy, and she I.

299
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: Mean it of it should have, you know, struck a

300
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 2: few chords at the time. But she looked like her

301
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:12,160
Speaker 2: dad too. So I'm glad there's two good looking individuals.

302
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 1: That's that's great, And I'm glad you can take some

303
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 1: joy from what you've been for you deserve some joy,

304
00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 1: so you shouldn't You shouldn't try and hold back on

305
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 1: it now. Of course it's special, and yeah, that sexual

306
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,640
Speaker 1: abuse cheated you of something very very special. Yeah, at Tarmi.

307
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 2: It did, it did. And you know, as you were saying,

308
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 2: you know, most parents attribute one of the best days

309
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 2: of their lives as when their kids are first born.

310
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,159
Speaker 2: For me, even that part of it was taken stolen

311
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 2: from you. So I just look forward to the day

312
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 2: that I can provide for that little girl and give

313
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 2: her the life that I know she deserves.

314
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sitting here looking at you and listening to

315
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,080
Speaker 1: you as a twenty four year old man. I think

316
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,640
Speaker 1: you've got big things ahead of you. So it wouldn't

317
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 1: surprise me if that plays the way it should be,

318
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,400
Speaker 1: because I think it's amazing the way that you've come

319
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: through such a difficult path.

320
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 2: Thank you.

321
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,760
Speaker 1: So at nineteen, what's your relationship with your father between

322
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 1: the ages of sixteen and nineteen?

323
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,560
Speaker 2: Is that strained quite minimal but it operated better at

324
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 2: a distance. It was. It was problematic when we were

325
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 2: sort of under the same roof, and that as I

326
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,119
Speaker 2: was saying, you know, because the reason my father and

327
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: I where it was was because of the dynamic that

328
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,680
Speaker 2: my stepmother put us in. You know, it's the only

329
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 2: way we were like that and still to this day,

330
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 2: why me and my father just because of the dynamic

331
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 2: that my stepmother has put us.

332
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: Like you're seeing the manipulation that she was imposed on you.

333
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: You can only imagine what game she was playing with

334
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: him too.

335
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and you know, for all my father's faults

336
00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: and he's not the greatest individual in the world, but

337
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,639
Speaker 2: I can understand where she has manipulated him and what

338
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 2: she's been putting in his era as well. Yeah, it

339
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,120
Speaker 2: just would twist his head as well, So I acknowledge that.

340
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's bigger for you to be able

341
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 1: to see that side of it, because she's not going

342
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 1: to just manipulate one person. You're quite right that I

343
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 1: should call it the evil step mother because starting that, Yeah,

344
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,159
Speaker 1: she even stooped, not even lower, but another act that

345
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: was despicable. And do you want to tell us about that?

346
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 2: Of course, So at nineteen years of age, so this

347
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 2: would have been twenty nineteen for me, she wanted to

348
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: leave my father. The reasons I don't know I wasn't

349
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: president in the house, and you know, me being the

350
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 2: sort of co parent of my daughter, you know, I

351
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: wanted to ensure that the mother of my child was Okay,

352
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 2: that's my thinking out.

353
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:56,400
Speaker 1: Of time, I understand.

354
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 2: So okay, Well I presented these opportunities, like these ideas,

355
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,880
Speaker 2: I said, oh we can. I'm still under this coersion.

356
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,199
Speaker 2: I still think I was in a relationship even at nineteen.

357
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I hadn't got the help yet. You hadn't

358
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 1: dealt with that. So your emotional growth is stunted from

359
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 1: the time you started getting sexually abused. It hasn't really progressed.

360
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 2: No, not at this point. And so she wanted to

361
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: leave my father. I get a call one day. I'm

362
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: in my apartment. I lived by myself at this point.

363
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 2: I get a call from my father saying, oh, can

364
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 2: you go check the house. Can you go check on

365
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 2: your stepmother and the baby, because I've got all these

366
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 2: bank transactions on my thing, and can you just go

367
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 2: check that they're there. I go there and all the

368
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 2: cupboards are, everything's been taken out, everything strips, everything's been

369
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 2: taken She's flown to the Philippines to evade to leave

370
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: my father, So she knew that in order for her

371
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 2: to have an opportunity to leave the country, she had

372
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: to sort of wave the red flag somewhere else, and

373
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 2: my dad would follow the red because he's likable. So

374
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: what she's done is she's sent him an email that

375
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 2: says that I raped her, meaning me, I raped my stepmother.

376
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: And then I remember my father forwarding me that email,

377
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: and he forwarded it to my biological mother as well,

378
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 2: and then my biological mother called me and said, what's

379
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 2: going on? And then I just was obviously in a

380
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: state of I can't I cannot believe what's happened.

381
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: Anyway, where do I start again?

382
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 2: So my mother's picked me up and I said, and

383
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: she said, Harry, is there anything you need to tell me?

384
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 2: And I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat

385
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 2: of a car. Wasn't looking at my mother, I was

386
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: looking straight ahead, And I said, Mum, I was I

387
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 2: engaged in an affair with my step mom behind Dad's back.

388
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 2: And there's a higher possibility that my daughter or my

389
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 2: sister could actually be my daughter. And that's the first

390
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: time I ever told someone that's heavy.

391
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, how did your mum react?

392
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Her face dropped when as white as a ghost.

393
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: I think there was potentially, and I'm I'm not accusing

394
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 2: her of anything, but there was potentially a feeling that

395
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: something was off, but she didn't feel that it went

396
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: to that extent. And I think I just confirmed that

397
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 2: sort of off feeling she had about me growing up

398
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 2: in those teenage years, and that sort of dynamic I

399
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: had with my stepmother. It was a bit off, but

400
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: she could She never, in the wildest imagination thought it

401
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 2: would have gone to that extent.

402
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the rape allegation, was it the formal complaint

403
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 1: or was it just a hand grenade frone.

404
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 2: Hand grenade thrown via that email in that in that email?

405
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so how did your father deal with your response?

406
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? So when my mother picked me up, I knew

407
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: that I wasn't safe being in my own apartment by myself,

408
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: So I went and stayed with mum for a few days.

409
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 2: And that's where me and mom sort of had like

410
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 2: an ongoing conversation because this is blown up for her

411
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: as well, and we're sort of trying to dictate what

412
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: the best course of action is. And then that's where

413
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 2: my mother went and approached my father and had a

414
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: conversation with him and said, this has happened. I need

415
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 2: you to you know, and that dynamic was sort of settled.

416
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, when did she say in the in the email

417
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: when you supposedly raped her, was that it was just

418
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: a broad just cause causes a drama. Yeah, your relationship

419
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: with your father at that point in time, did you

420
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: tell him after you told your mother what happened?

421
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: I wanted to avoid it, but it got to a

422
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: point where he came over to the house and sort

423
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: of wanted to instigate a discussion to sort of make

424
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: sense of what the hell happened. It was presented that

425
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: this was many years in the possibility that or the

426
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: very highly likely chance that my sister's actually my daughter.

427
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: So when you adjusted with him on that occasion, did

428
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: he accept it?

429
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: It was honestly to his credit, and I don't like

430
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: to give him credit that much, but it was. It

431
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: was quite It was just taken with a sense of

432
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: shock and a sense of just that dynamic that we

433
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: were talking about before, where like like he thought that

434
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: I engaged in it, and he went, oh, just like

435
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 2: it was really interesting point in time where it wasn't reactive.

436
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: It was just he was actually.

437
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: Quite it's sobered him trying to the full.

438
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: And then he went away and then sort of obviously

439
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: there's been a thing where she's gotten in his about

440
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: what happened because he's been presented with facts, he's obviously

441
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: taking it to her. She's shown her side of it,

442
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: and he's changed his viewpoint since then.

443
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: As in taking her side. Yeah, she's a master manipulator,

444
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: isn't she?

445
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: She is? Indeed.

446
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: I just want to read something about this is one

447
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: of the interviews you've done about the impact it had

448
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 1: on you, and I think it sort of encapsulates what

449
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: you were going through. I'd got to a point where

450
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: I wanted to take my own life. I was twenty,

451
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: my daughter had been taken from me, I was falsely

452
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: accused of rape. I had the memories of what had

453
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: happened to me as a child. That's a lot for

454
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: someone to take on board. I got to the point

455
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: where I just couldn't handle it. So that's a fairly

456
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: honest account. And this is so you were saying nineteen

457
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: when the allegation, So you're talking here twenty do you

458
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: want to just explain what was going through? Just were

459
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: you overwhelmed with everything, that you lost your daughter, your

460
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: daughter had gone the Philippines, you've got the issue with

461
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: your father, you've been accused of rape. Lives. Yeah, pretty shit.

462
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: It's not great. I mean in that quote you read that,

463
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: it's pretty much just how it was. I mean, for me,

464
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: the most devastating consequence of this abuse carry has been

465
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: losing my daughter and I still haven't seen her to

466
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: this day from that point that she left in twenty nineteen.

467
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: But just you lose your daughter, you're falsely accused of rape,

468
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: you'll come into the realization that what actually happened to

469
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: you was not a relationship, it was an abuse. It

470
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: was blatant abuse and a total stripping of your teenage

471
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: years and childhood. And that's when I entered a mental

472
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: health facility at twenty because I came up with the

473
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: plan to end my life on a Friday, and I said,

474
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to have my final weekend and I was

475
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: going to do it on the Monday. I remember going

476
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: out the Friday and the Saturday night just took was drinking,

477
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: took anything I could, and got to the point on

478
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: Sunday where I sort of had like this vision of

479
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: my mother finding me and I couldn't deal with that.

480
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: I couldn't I didn't want to put her through that.

481
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: So there was actually on the same road that I

482
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: lived on, there was a mental health clinic and I

483
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: checked myself in that Sunday evening before the Monday. I

484
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: was going to carry through the plan that I had, well, yeah.

485
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: To get to that, to get to that point, to

486
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: even contemplate that, yeah, what you're going through, it was

487
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: just overwhelmed. And is that that low point was because

488
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: you came to the realization that you had been abused.

489
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: The whole way that you've been looking at your life

490
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: was delusional up until that point, with the relationship and

491
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: everything else, and it all just caught up with you.

492
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: Is that? Yeah?

493
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: So my mother between that year of nineteen when they

494
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: fled and twenty of where I got into the mental

495
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: health ward, my mother, you know, really really urged me

496
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: to go get getzo therapy. Yeah, and they really did

497
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: assist me with coming to that realization that what happened

498
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: was not a relationship, it was sexual abuse. And that's

499
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: quite it's very confronting, and it just it drove me

500
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: to that point where I didn't want to be here anymore.

501
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 2: And I needed more extensive help to assist me through

502
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: that period, and it was the best decision I ever

503
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: made going to that mental health facility, because it really

504
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: gave me the tools to one articulate what I went through.

505
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: It gave me the language to actually explain what I

506
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: was going through, and hindsight's a beautiful thing.

507
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but with hindsight, yeah exactly.

508
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: But it also gave me the tools to navigate the

509
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: trauma if it ever came up again. So I was

510
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: in that mental health ward for about two months.

511
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: And clearly, the way you're talking about it, it was

512
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: beneficial for you.

513
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, undoubtedly it was single handedly one of the best

514
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: decisions I've ever made.

515
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think if you went early on that

516
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: you could have addressed the same situation or did you

517
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: need that life experience in that age and that wisdom

518
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: to deal with it at that point in time.

519
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: I just don't think it was a possibility for me,

520
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: Gary to go before that point, because I was just

521
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: under such coercion and just such manipulation and such a

522
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: facade of what I was told, like a relationship was

523
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: presented to me, and that's all I knew.

524
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. I think you're basically saying, well,

525
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: it was a relationship. We all have problems in relationships,

526
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: and this was just so I was going through a

527
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: relationship situation and it didn't you hadn't dawned on you. No,

528
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: this was not a relationship. Not abuse.

529
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, not at all, not until that point. I've seen

530
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: those therapists for that year and then getting to a

531
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: point where it really dawned on me and the weight

532
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: of it all, especially losing my daughter like that, that

533
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: really plagued me, and it just got it. It all

534
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: came to a head.

535
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: That's another level that adds to the trauma is the daughter.

536
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: And it's clear the way you speak about your daughter,

537
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: the love that you've got for her and the impact

538
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: that she's had on your life.

539
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: Undoubtedly.

540
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: So you've come out, two months, you spent getting help,

541
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: you came out. But I would imagine, and I'm just

542
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm not sure you clarify it. I would

543
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: imagine that doesn't mean you walk out in your heel

544
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: and the problem's gone. You still live with it daily.

545
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: You just have the tools to address exactly right.

546
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you've articulated that perfectly. It's you don't

547
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: come out and you know all is good. You come

548
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: out and you're you're sort of continuing to navigate it,

549
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: but you've just got the proper tools to assist you

550
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: in navigating it. Because it's it's quite quite an ordeal

551
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: that I have to say, it's the understatement of the

552
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: year probably yeah, yeah, but it's quite an ideal that

553
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: I've got to navigate and to have that assistance and

554
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: to have that support, and to know that I can

555
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: always go back to that as well. I have that

556
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: safety net behind me no matter what happens. That's a

557
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: real privilege that I possess.

558
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: It's something that you have in your back pocket, isn't it.

559
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: If you need to need to pull it out, you

560
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: know there's a way to get help which will hopefully

561
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: stop your spiraling or feeling like that you're on your own.

562
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: So how did life look to you after you came out.

563
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: I remember coming out as twenty twenty and I just

564
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: had this little bit little bit of hope. You know,

565
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: there was a little bit of light at the end

566
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: of the tunnel. Wasn't perfect, but there was a little

567
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and

568
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: you know, I was sort of coming to terms with

569
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: the fact that I didn't really identify as a survivor

570
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: or anything that's about that, But I just didn't really

571
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: I was coming to terms with what happened and just

572
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: trying to articulate my experiences and sort of navigate that.

573
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty one, Grace Tame One Australia

574
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: the year and I saw an individual who went through

575
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: something similar on the national stage and that was a

576
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: real poignant moment for me to see that. And then

577
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: it's sort of just instilled in me that I think

578
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: I have the tools and the wherewithal to advocate in

579
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: my own way as well. I didn't know what that

580
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: looked like at the time, but I knew that I

581
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: wanted to help people. And it wasn't until a couple

582
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: of years until I actually publicly spoke about my story

583
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: for the first time, until twenty twenty two. But throughout

584
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: those throughout those few years, you know, just navigating it

585
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: and just making sure I was okay before I could

586
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: help other people.

587
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: Okay, it's interesting you mentioned the Grace and the type

588
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: of things that you're doing here. I've got to say, Grace,

589
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: when she was here in the studio was one of

590
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: the most impressive people I've had the pleasure to interview.

591
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.

592
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: I was scared she came in because she's pretty pretty intimidating,

593
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: but had a lot of fun and the way she

594
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: articulated things. And I think it's great that the stance

595
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: that Grace took and the impact that's had on it

596
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: helped you, and I think the type of stuff that

597
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: you're doing now can help you as well.

598
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it not only helped me, helped countless individuals across

599
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 2: this country that couldn't didn't have the courage to come forward.

600
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: And that's not a bad thing upon them, but they

601
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: just needed to see that. And what Grace did was

602
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: she forged that path, you know, you know she ran

603
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: so I could walk today with the advocacy that I

604
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: that I'm able to do. You know, I stand on

605
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: the shoulders of giants, of people like Grace and other

606
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: individuals who have come before me. So I really like

607
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that in opportunities like this, when when I

608
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: get asked that question of what your story was like,

609
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: because it really was upon your moment. For me, it

610
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: changed my life to see her when that award and

611
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 2: say the speech she did.

612
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was powerful in so many ways. And I

613
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: think with people like Grace speaking up about situations like that.

614
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of working with Madeline West on

615
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: the podcast series called Predatory where she came out about

616
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: her child's sexual abuse. And again it's so powerful. And

617
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: the work that Andrew Carpenter does, Shane Rattenberry, politician from Queensland,

618
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: all these people are out there making a difference. Russell

619
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: Manser survivory piece, Yeah, sadly passed away, but he was

620
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: carrying a lot of pain from the sexual abuse he

621
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: suffered in institutions. And I've got to say that I

622
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: had no idea the impact that it has on the

623
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: criminal world, the amount of people that have been through

624
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 1: sexual abuse and then have gone down the wrong path.

625
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: And I'm talking you know, some serious hardcore crooks, bikis

626
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: and that that carry the pain of being victims of

627
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. So for each and every one of

628
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: you speaking out, I think it makes difference. And I

629
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: see there's an honor having this platform to allow people

630
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: like yourself come on and tell your stories.

631
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, And I couldn't agree more

632
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: individuals like this, They change the discourse of the of

633
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: the national conversation, and it's important that we as society

634
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: as a community, and you're leading by example in doing that,

635
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 2: by honoring that and by understanding that these are actually

636
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: courageous and brave things to share these stories.

637
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's not about you know, that's right, and

638
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: that's deeply personal, and you've got to expose a little

639
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: bit of yourself and that makes you feel vulnerable coming

640
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: out and talking about your emotions and what you went through.

641
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: But no, I think each and every one of you

642
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: are extremely courageous in the way that you approach it.

643
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: Thank you in regards to your advocacy. Yes, let's talk

644
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: about that. Let's get angry on the couple of things.

645
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: The reference. Yeah, if you could explain that. Then we

646
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: spoke briefly. PEP who have listened to the podcast would

647
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: have heard as raise the fact that people who have

648
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: been charged of sexually abusing children shouldn't be given the

649
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: luxury of having the reference as to good character character reference.

650
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. So in May of twenty twenty three, so

651
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: I came out with my story publicly for the first time.

652
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, and I sort of knew that

653
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: I wanted to get involved with legislative reform because I

654
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: knew it had a huge impact on people's lives, and

655
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to get involved in that, but

656
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: I didn't know where it sort of lied or sort

657
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: of how I was going to navigate it. So I

658
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: spent a year just sort of really building my connections

659
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: within the space. I'd attend you know, talks and seminars

660
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: and all that, and sort of just build connections. And

661
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: so when I knew I wanted to pursue legislative change,

662
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: I would you have people that could support me through that.

663
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: And this thing of good character references just always irked

664
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: me as such, such an injustice. How can you be

665
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: of character and commit that type of crime. It's ridiculous,

666
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 2: defeat the purpose. So when I spoke out as a

667
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: survivor of child sexual abuse and wanted to change the

668
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: laws surround pertaining to child sexual abuse, I said, surely

669
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: there's no way that good character references are allowed for

670
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: these types of criminals. There's surely no way. And I

671
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: went through the legislation and was researching and researching, and

672
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: lo and behold, I find this sort of strange quirk

673
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: in the law. And right now, what the current legislation

674
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: is doing is it's prohibiting certain individuals, certain child sex offenders,

675
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 2: from using good character references, but it's allowing a whole

676
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: other class of individuals to do it. And the reason

677
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: it's like that was because the current law was introduced

678
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 2: by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

679
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: So at the moment, the individuals that are prohibited from

680
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: using good character references are the teachers, the scoutmasters, the

681
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: religious leaders, anyone who has out with good standing in

682
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: the community had and utilize that outward good standing to

683
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: facilitate the crime. But gary there's a whole other class

684
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: of individuals that are still allowed to use these good

685
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: character references, the stepmothers, the neighbors, the grandparents, the older brothers,

686
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: the cousins, whatever it is. But our argument is that

687
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: good standing, it's a cultivated and very calculated and deceitful

688
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: good character that they cultivate that still allows them to

689
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: facilitate that crime. And right now, in courts, in the sentencing,

690
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 2: so this is the back end of courts, So they've

691
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: already gone through a trial, a judges found them more

692
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: one hundred percent guilty of committing this crime, and then

693
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: they come back in the sentencing and they're getting these

694
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: discounts essentially discount character because of their good character, but

695
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: they're getting discounts on their sentences for the very thing

696
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 2: that allowed them to facilitate the crime and commit the crime.

697
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: So we're trying to extend the current legislation to encapsulate

698
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 2: that category of offender as well, so no child sex

699
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: offender can utilize a good character reference in the sense

700
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: in procedure of court. And last year, in May of

701
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, my campaign partner and I, Jared Grice,

702
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: we started the hashtag your reference Ain't Relevant campaign and

703
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: we started in our home state of New South Wales

704
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: because we live here. We got involved and in touch

705
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: with the Attorney General here in New South Wales, Attorney

706
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: General Michael Daily. He initiated a review. The first review,

707
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: you know, it resulted in total polarity from advocates and

708
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: people who agreed with us and the legal community. So

709
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: then we came back and Michael Daily, thank god he did,

710
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: he started he instigated a second review with the New

711
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: South Wales Sensing Council, which is currently underway, and he

712
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: took it to the Standing Council of Attorney's General's meeting,

713
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: which is the national meeting where all the ags of

714
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: Attorney Generals from each jurisdiction come together to discuss national

715
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: consistency when it comes to lawa form and that pretty

716
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: much put us, single handedly put us on the national map.

717
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: And this was something that was a relative obscurity. No

718
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: person knew that a pedophile could use a good character reference.

719
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: Now it's a core tenant of the national conversation because

720
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: of the work that we've done, and we've been able

721
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: to meet with the Attorney generals from each state in

722
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: jurisdiction and we're continuing to meet more.

723
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: Well, full credit to you for making that difference, and

724
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: so people understand what we're dealing with. And you articulated

725
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: very clearly pedophiles manipulate. That's how they build a trust.

726
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 1: So to have someone coming in and saying, oh, well,

727
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: look this person that was babysitting our children, they would

728
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: always help. They'd come over and always offer to babysit

729
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: the kids. That's not good character. That is basically put

730
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: in the fact sheet. If I'm a cop, I'm putting

731
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: that in the fact sheet, that's showing the tendency to

732
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: create that environment where they can pray on people. So

733
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: little things like that make a difference. And like you

734
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: chip away, and I know how hard it is to

735
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: change legislation and the resistance that comes from the legal

736
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: fraternity and everything it's enshrined. It's hard, but that's the

737
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: way we've always done it. Oh, you don't understand. And

738
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: when you're trying to push changes in legislation, it's a battle.

739
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: But full credit to you that you're getting it getting

740
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: it to this stage.

741
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And look, Jared

742
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: and I and we have fantastic advocates that have come forward.

743
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: You know, we've built this campaign and we understand that

744
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: we have a responsibility to allow other abuse survivors to

745
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: share their story. So we have a gentleman in the

746
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: act by the names of Josh Burns. He shares his story.

747
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 2: He's a fantastic individual. In South Australia, we have a

748
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: Alyssa James who shares her story incredibly, just so bravely,

749
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: just purely in the pursuit of change and wanting to

750
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: make a difference. And it's really, really really important that

751
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: we that the courts incorporate and understanding of how this

752
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: crime operates, because as you said, there, you know, this

753
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: is a good character. It is a weapon amongst their

754
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: arsenal of deceit. It's part of the crime, and the

755
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: courts have to understand that and encapsulate that in the sentence.

756
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: I like saying, an armed robber that's got a bellaclava.

757
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I think, let's it's.

758
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: So ludicrous and backwards and we just need to get

759
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: on the front foot of it and change it. And

760
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: that's that's where my advocacy lies. It's where the good

761
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: character references.

762
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: That's okay, that's my thing. Keep pushing for it. The

763
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: fact that you've connected with so many people that have

764
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: got shared experiences, is that helpful for you?

765
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: Of course? And just to see you know, I have

766
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: a friend named Anna and she's a survivor as well,

767
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: and you know, I get asked all these questions, how

768
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: do you how do you deal with you know, survivors

769
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: that are constantly telling you their stories, like it must

770
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: be hard to hear these stories all the time, and

771
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: to an extent it is. And you know, there's a

772
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: thing called vicarious trauma. But my friend Anna, who's just amazing,

773
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: she says, Harry, perception and mindset is so important, and

774
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 2: you can view these stories as giving you vicarious trauma,

775
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: or you can change that mindset and you can look

776
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 2: at these survivors and you can think, my god, they're

777
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: standing here on two feet after the adversity of they're faced,

778
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: and there they're and they're pursuing these beautiful lives and

779
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: doing these great things. That's vicarious resilience, and that's how

780
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: I choose to view it now. Vicario is resilience. So

781
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: it's something to see a survivor speaking about their story

782
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: and coming forward so bravely and courageously and sharing their

783
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: lived experience purely because they want to ensure that it

784
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: doesn't happen to another kid. That builds me up. So

785
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: it's it's sort of selfish why I do what I do,

786
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: but it really does build me up.

787
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: No, Well, you've every right to draw on those strengths.

788
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: And I think when you refer to survivor a child

789
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, I think during this podcast, I've made reference

790
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: to victims of child sexual abuse, and I've been pulled

791
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: up on that before because the way you sity. You

792
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: are a survivor, it's something to be proud. And the

793
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 1: other people I've spoken to a survivors and they're warriors

794
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: in their own way. They've overcome things that no child

795
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: should have to go to. So it's something that you

796
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: should be proud of. What other things that you got

797
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: going on in your life?

798
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I do the advocacy. I go around the country.

799
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: I have the privilege of being able to speak. I

800
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: get to do incredible opporneies like this. I have a

801
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: I think called a substack account, so I write articles

802
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: and people are more than welcome to engage and subscribe

803
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: to that.

804
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: How does that work and how can they access that?

805
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a web page. It's called Harrison James

806
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: Activism Unfiltered and it's just me being able to express

807
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: my thought and sort of give my thought provoking commentary

808
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: on situations. And yeah, they can go to substack dot

809
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: it's Harry James dot com and sort of subscribe to

810
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: be a part of those articles and read up on them.

811
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: But also social media is a big thing for me

812
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: as well. And that's essentially how the campaign that your

813
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: reference Ain't relevant campaign, That's how it's been able to

814
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: get to the point that it's at now because of

815
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: the social media and just sort of people are able

816
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: to engage, and yeah, the impact of it, it's been

817
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: really remarkable. And never in a million years do I

818
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 2: think you know the kid that was going through what

819
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: he did at thirteen and fourteen fifteen years old would

820
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: go on to be a voice and be quite a

821
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: not blow smoke up my own ass, but quite quite

822
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: a big voice.

823
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: A powerful, powerful voice. And I keep having to check

824
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: myself that you're twenty four years old, But you did

825
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: say during the podcast that you had your maturity went

826
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: exponentially because of the speriences you've got. And I'm sitting

827
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: here opposite a person that's speaking with so much wisdom

828
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: that's way beyond twenty four years. So like, keep up

829
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: and keep up the good work. Thank you your daughter,

830
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: future hopes plans. Do you hope to at some stage

831
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: reconnect with your daughter? I know in one of the

832
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: many articles I've read about you, you've said you have

833
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 1: to check yourself time and time again not to get

834
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: on the plane and go over there and see her,

835
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: but again for the person that you are, the quality

836
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: of the person that you are, you've said that you

837
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: don't want to cause confusion in her life at such

838
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: an early age where she's not ready to deal with it.

839
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 1: So talk us through your hopes about the future there.

840
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, I hope more than anything that I'll

841
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: be able to reunite with my daughter. It's such a

842
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: it's imperative that I do, you know, because it's interesting.

843
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: I've been stripped of a daughter, and you know I

844
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: talk about that quite a bit. But also at the

845
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: end of the day, Gary, that little girl's been stripped

846
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: of a father as well, and she'll never get those

847
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: years back because of what my stepmother decided to do.

848
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: And it's the shame and the guilt. It falls squarely

849
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: at my stepmother's feet. And I hope that one day.

850
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: You know, my daughter turns nine this year. It's there's

851
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: never going to be a right time to have this conversation,

852
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: but right now is the least right time. It's not

853
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: appropriate for me, as you said. You know, I've said

854
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: in articles before. You know, I fight the urge every

855
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: single morning to get that first flight to the Philippines

856
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: to pick her right back up and bring her home

857
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 2: to safety where I know she's going to be safe

858
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: with me. But if I go over there that confusion

859
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: that I'm going to impose upon her. There's already been

860
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: one childhood that's been corrupted. I want to ensure as

861
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: a father that I do everything in my power to

862
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: impose the least amount of pain upon my daughter this

863
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: with this situation that neither her or I ask for.

864
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 2: So I really hope that there's a day where, you know,

865
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: she'll and if she's anything like her father, she'll ask

866
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 2: questions and she'll be curious and want to find out.

867
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: And I not only do I hope, but I know

868
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 2: that there will be a day where we reunite because

869
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 2: I'm going to ensure that it happens because it's really

870
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: important to me that I'm able to establish a connection

871
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: with her, and I hope that's reciprocated on her. And

872
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what she's been told or

873
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: or will be told in the in the period of

874
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: time that I don't see her, But all I can

875
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 2: hope is that she she and I can come can

876
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 2: reunite and come together with an understanding of what's happened

877
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: and an empathy. And I just hope that I can

878
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: educate her on that and assist her through through her

879
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: own trauma that she's inevitably going to face. By coming

880
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: to terms with this, It's going to be very traumatic

881
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: for that girl, and I recognize that, and as a

882
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 2: father and someone who has been through pain myself, I

883
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: want to be able to help her navigate that. And

884
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: I hope that day comes.

885
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: Well, just the way that you've described that. I think,

886
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 1: hang on to a recording of what you just said

887
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: in the last five minutes and send that to your

888
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: daughter at the right stage, and she'll know how much

889
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: she is loved and how special a father is. So

890
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: I think you'll get that message across. And there's something

891
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: about you, there's that X factor that I think, yeah,

892
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: things will work out. And I want to say this

893
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: in wrapping up. I'm just it's people like you that

894
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: inspire me, like people that have experienced situations and that

895
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: just come through the resilience and the way that you've

896
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: come through and the balance view that you've got on

897
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: what's happened and the way that you accepted. I think

898
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: anyone that listens to your story will be inspired, shocked

899
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 1: by what you've been through, but also inspired and educated.

900
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: So the work that you're doing. Get out there to

901
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: as many people and speak to as many people as

902
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: you can, because I think you've got a really powerful

903
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: message that is making a difference.

904
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: Thank you, Garry. That means the world. And just to

905
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to come on here and share that message,

906
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 2: it means the world. And you're doing phenomenal work by

907
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: allowing individuals like me to come on here and share

908
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: those stories. So again, just a debt of gratitude to

909
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: thank you so much.

910
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: It's an honor.

911
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 2: All the best, Thank you, cheers.

912
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: I know the world's a good place when you have

913
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: someone like Harrison James advocating for survivors as child's sexual abuse.

914
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 1: What he went through was horrendous, But the way he's

915
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: come through and the way he articulates his own experience

916
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: and the help that he's trying to provide others by

917
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: talking about this hideous crime, I think is inspirational. I

918
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: really enjoyed sitting down having to chat with him, and

919
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: I just found him a fascinating person and what a

920
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: great outlook he has on life.

921
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:01,479
Speaker 2: Nine