1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,000 Michael Thompson: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,440 Michael Thompson: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more. 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,440 Michael Thompson: I'm Michael Thompson, and good morning, Sean Aylmer. 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,128 Sean Aylmer: Good morning. Michael. 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,240 Michael Thompson: Good morning to you, Adam Lang. 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,360 Adam Lang: Hello Michael, and hello again, Sean. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:21,480 Sean Aylmer: Hello, Adam. 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,680 Michael Thompson: Today it is all about trust. We touched on this yesterday 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,520 Michael Thompson: in The Weekend Edition and I thought it was worthy 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,600 Michael Thompson: of another conversation because it's a big issue. This week 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,680 Michael Thompson: we saw the most trusted and most distrusted brands announced 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,040 Michael Thompson: by Roy Morgan. Every year they do this survey and 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,920 Michael Thompson: I think the findings are fantastic. Right, just for context, 14 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,680 Michael Thompson: the most trusted brands Bunnings, Aldi, Kmart, Apple, Toyota, Big W, 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:56,240 Michael Thompson: Commonwealth Bank, Myer, hmmm, Australia Post and JB HiFi. The 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:07,720 Michael Thompson: other end of the scale, the most distrusted brands at Woollies, Coles, Meta, Facebook, Optus, Qantas, Temu, Telstra, Tesla, 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:14,520 Michael Thompson: X formerly Twitter, and News Corp. I find it there's 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,520 Michael Thompson: there's so many extraordinary things in here, but I'm going 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,480 Michael Thompson: to ask you first, Adam, starting with the most trusted, 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,960 Michael Thompson: how hard is it to actually build trust as a company? 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,560 Michael Thompson: And you just take it away. Sean and I are 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,000 Michael Thompson: going to turn our mic's off and go and have 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,040 Michael Thompson: a cup of tea. 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,560 Adam Lang: I think it's extremely hard. I mean, it starts with 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,039 Adam Lang: having a very clear and distinct brand, and then you've 26 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Adam Lang: got to prove it every single time you interact with 27 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,559 Adam Lang: a customer. So, I think it's the compounding story of many, 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,880 Adam Lang: many interactions with customers, and I think that's probably what 29 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,400 Adam Lang: makes Bunnings so impressive. 30 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,360 Michael Thompson: Yeah, yeah, what did you think, Sean? I mean, you're 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Michael Thompson: a Bunning's user, You're an Aldi user. Is there a 32 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,760 Michael Thompson: reason why you keep going back to these? Do you 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,080 Michael Thompson: trust them? Do you trust them more than you trust Woolies? 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,680 Sean Aylmer: Though, well, on my third visit within the same hour, 35 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:01,920 Sean Aylmer: I do trust the Bunnings guy that I keep going 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,680 Sean Aylmer: back and returning to stuff that I got wrong to 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,960 Sean Aylmer: begin with. I mean, what I find really interesting with 38 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,200 Sean Aylmer: these surveys, the distrusted brands are basically brands who have 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:20,160 Sean Aylmer: had a crisis. Woollies, Coles, Optus, Qantas, Tesla, x, Temu 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,520 Sean Aylmer: I suppose to throwing there. Telstra is an interesting one. 41 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,760 Sean Aylmer: I don't know whether that's a customer servicing or something 42 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:30,639 Sean Aylmer: going on there. So the distrusted brands what I'm interested in. Fact, 43 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,000 Sean Aylmer: Adam would love to hear your take on it. With distrust, 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,200 Sean Aylmer: it's almost like a crisis. You suddenly go from you know, 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:39,920 Sean Aylmer: an eight out of ten to a two out of 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,400 Sean Aylmer: ten and just seems so difficult to start climbing up 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:44,320 Sean Aylmer: that ladder again. 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,639 Adam Lang: It really is. And I think, look, if you look 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,040 Adam Lang: in that list of distrusted brands, you can see almost 50 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,160 Adam Lang: a work in progress by Qantas. So what I mean 51 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,800 Adam Lang: by that, if you take Coles and Woollies and the 52 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Adam Lang: pricing inquiry, I think that did enormous damage to both brands. 53 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,240 Adam Lang: Then you have Qantas and we know very well storied 54 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,560 Adam Lang: of issues with baggage handlers, with canceled flights, with charging customers. 55 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,600 Adam Lang: That there was a number of stories in the last 56 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,680 Adam Lang: five years of how that brand has been damaged, and 57 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,320 Adam Lang: in the last year perhaps a little bit more. That 58 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,920 Adam Lang: story is a work in progress. They're working their way back. 59 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,240 Adam Lang: New planes just arrived this week. Oh sorry, a new 60 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Adam Lang: plane just arrived this week. As part of rebuilding, in 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,240 Adam Lang: reinvesting in the brand, we've seen obviously they've had to 62 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:38,160 Adam Lang: settle the case with those baggage handlers that they terminated unfairly. 63 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,760 Adam Lang: They're working hard to rebuild with customers, lots more communication. 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,760 Adam Lang: I think we're all frequent flyers and I'm receiving a 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Adam Lang: lot of communication about the work they're doing. So I 66 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Adam Lang: think you're right, Sean. I think it does really get started, 67 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Adam Lang: the distrust, with an event, and then it's over to 68 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,240 Adam Lang: the brand as to how they work through it. 69 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,640 Michael Thompson: Can I ask you then, Sean? Based on that, how 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,440 Michael Thompson: impressive is it, then, that the Commonwealth Bank is in the 71 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,000 Michael Thompson: top ten most trusted brands. It's coming in at number seven, 72 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Michael Thompson: and I think it's up like five places since last 73 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,160 Michael Thompson: year to have recovered from its own crisis. Being part 74 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,960 Michael Thompson: of the banking Royal Commission. What's that seven, eight years ago? 75 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,479 Sean Aylmer: It was twenty nineteen. But I think this highlights Adam's point. 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,719 Sean Aylmer: All the banks did better this time. Commonwealth Bank, certainly 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,279 Sean Aylmer: from memory, Westpac and ANZ were both around the I 78 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,920 Sean Aylmer: think one was nineteen, one was twenty one. ANZ still 79 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,400 Sean Aylmer: a fifty one, so not doing so well. But six 80 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,880 Sean Aylmer: years ago we had that Royal Commission, and that's how 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,080 Sean Aylmer: long it's taken for Commonwealth Bank, which really is an 82 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,080 Sean Aylmer: incredible brand to break back in or break into the 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:58,040 Sean Aylmer: top ten. So it just shows how much damage things 84 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,120 Sean Aylmer: like the Optus outage will do to that company. You've 85 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,000 Sean Aylmer: mentioned Woolies and Coals in that. How much damage Elon 86 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,120 Sean Aylmer: Musk has done to Tesla because of his association with 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,479 Sean Aylmer: Donald Trump? How much Quantus was another good example. You know, 88 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,279 Sean Aylmer: it's taken come of think six years to recover in 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,680 Sean Aylmer: terms of trust and so it really is a long 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,840 Sean Aylmer: slow process. And Commonwealth Bank, you know, it's been of 91 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,520 Sean Aylmer: the large caps just about the best performing stock. You know, 92 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,760 Sean Aylmer: you have all sorts of good news out of Commonwealth 93 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,120 Sean Aylmer: Bank all the time. It's only now back into trusted brands. 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,880 Michael Thompson: In that case, do you think Woolies and Coals it's 95 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,880 Michael Thompson: going to take some time to get off the bottom 96 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,400 Michael Thompson: of the of the list, and they're trying this year 97 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,479 Michael Thompson: we've had essentially a price war. They've spent a fortune, 98 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,839 Michael Thompson: led by Woolies trying to slash prices in order to 99 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,080 Michael Thompson: rebuild that trust. But it doesn't seem to be working. 100 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,560 Michael Thompson: What are they going to need to do? 101 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,479 Sean Aylmer: I think it just takes time. Funny thing is I 102 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,800 Sean Aylmer: reckon Willies and Coals are totally trustworthy now because of 103 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,279 Sean Aylmer: what they've been through, and so I actually believe what 104 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,039 Sean Aylmer: Willis and Coals are saying, but it just takes time 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,840 Sean Aylmer: to get there. The flip side to that, right, Bunnings 106 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,920 Sean Aylmer: fantastic advertising. You feel the service is good. I'm not 107 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,920 Sean Aylmer: sure that Bunnings prices are always cheaper. I mean they 108 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,560 Sean Aylmer: might be, but I'm not sure. But I actually reckon 109 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,000 Sean Aylmer: Willis and Coals are the distrusted brands are ready. They're 110 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,719 Sean Aylmer: doing everything they can, more so than Bunnings because Bunnings 111 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,919 Sean Aylmer: has got so much political capital at the moment, it 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:27,919 Sean Aylmer: actually has room. 113 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,600 Michael Thompson: To move out of directing. Companies pay attention to this directon. 114 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,200 Michael Thompson: They kind of watch this to say, oh, are we 115 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,480 Michael Thompson: climbing the ranks? Are because there is a value to it, right, 116 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,800 Michael Thompson: There is actually a value to companies to be on 117 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:41,719 Michael Thompson: or to be seen as trusted. 118 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,560 Adam Lang: Oh yeah, look, I directly know many of the companies 119 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,880 Adam Lang: do pay attention to it, and so I believe that 120 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,600 Adam Lang: everyone does and they should. I really have a it's 121 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,839 Adam Lang: a great question of you know what the value of 122 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,320 Adam Lang: it is, like does it affect turnover? And I think 123 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,960 Adam Lang: it does, but not on a short term basis. So 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,120 Adam Lang: I think Woolies and Coles, I still shop there right, 125 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Adam Lang: and so I'm still trading probably just as much with 126 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,120 Adam Lang: those brands as I used to. So even though I 127 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,400 Adam Lang: feel differently about it, I'm still trading with them because 128 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,200 Adam Lang: it happens to be the best option for a set 129 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,840 Adam Lang: of reasons. But when I think about it, too, just 130 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,880 Adam Lang: on that the Coles and Woolies, They've also had a 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Adam Lang: number of things with suppliers, you know, dairy farmers for 132 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,400 Adam Lang: a while, you know, the one dollar a liter milk 133 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,800 Adam Lang: that really challenged a lot of people, and that was 134 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,280 Adam Lang: very heartfelt to many and probably very memorable like that 135 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,119 Adam Lang: can scar over time. Other agricultural providers, Woollies and Coals 136 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,800 Adam Lang: have really been very aggressive competitors and have negotiated hard 137 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,200 Adam Lang: with those, sometimes too hart like a lot of farms 138 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,120 Adam Lang: have had to close for it. 139 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:53,360 Sean Aylmer: So the cheesemakers, Adam. Blessed are the cheesemakers! 140 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:58,640 Adam Lang: Very good! Yes, blessed are the cheesemakers. I'm just wondering 141 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,080 Adam Lang: it's not just customers, it's suppliers as well, and your partners. 142 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,760 Adam Lang: So I think it does affect trade, not in the 143 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,080 Adam Lang: short term, but I also wonder, and this is probably 144 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Adam Lang: an overreach but Commonwealth Bank being so highly valued as 145 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,320 Adam Lang: a bank, like it's trading at world class highs in 146 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,840 Adam Lang: terms of a profit multiple. Is it because they've just 147 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Adam Lang: done so many things so well over time? And I 148 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,720 Adam Lang: think that that's a real hypothetical. But I don't think 149 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,200 Adam Lang: it affects it in the short term. 150 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,600 Michael Thompson: Okay, we are out of time. I will just point 151 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,200 Michael Thompson: out that looking at the most trusted brands, it's just 152 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,080 Michael Thompson: trying to figure out where Fear and Greed would fit. 153 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,559 Michael Thompson: I think somewhere in between Aldi and Kmart as a 154 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,000 Michael Thompson: trusted brand, and I was a little bit incensed that we 155 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,480 Michael Thompson: weren't on there. I was pleased to say that we 156 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:45,880 Michael Thompson: weren't on the most distrusted. 157 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,040 Adam Lang: Or could we have a Fear and Greed index? Create 158 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:48,640 Adam Lang: our own one? 159 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Michael Thompson: I like that, Yeah, I think. But anyway, somewhere in 160 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,320 Michael Thompson: between Aldi and Kmart would be feels like the right 161 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,839 Michael Thompson: spot for us. Okay, thank you very much, Sean. 162 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:57,640 Sean Aylmer: Thanks Michael. 163 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,680 Michael Thompson: Thank you, Adam. 164 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,405 Adam Lang: Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Sean. 165 00:09:00,405 --> 00:09:02,240 Michael Thompson: Now remember if you've got a question that you'd like 166 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,280 Michael Thompson: to know, then send it through on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, 167 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,880 Michael Thompson: or at Fearangreed dot com dot au. I'm Michael Thompson and 168 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,160 Michael Thompson: this is Fear and Greed q and a