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Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier in the program, former Foreign Minister,

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Speaker 1: Liberal leader and diplomat Alexander Dana has written a compelling

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Speaker 1: article in this Morning's Advertiser. He says we should forget

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Speaker 1: the subs and find better ways to invest in South Australia.

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Speaker 1: He joins me in Alexander Danna, welcome, thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: on the show today.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure Graham.

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Speaker 1: You believe that the billions of dollars being spent on

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Speaker 1: preparation for the subs that Osborne should be put in

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Speaker 1: other areas.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I think it's wasted because in the end,

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Speaker 2: I don't think submarines will ever be built in Adelaide

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Speaker 2: because of the cost and the amount of time and

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Speaker 2: the amount of skilled labor book fire to do that.

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Speaker 2: And I think ultimately common sense will prevail and will

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Speaker 2: buy the submarine from either the US or the UK,

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Speaker 2: where they have felt nuclear submarines for generation. And I

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Speaker 2: think we would be much better investing the money in

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Speaker 2: South Australia in promoting our education institutions, the arts, obviously

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Speaker 2: dealing with some of the health and education problems that

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Speaker 2: we have, such a branding which means more hospital beds.

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Speaker 2: There are so many things a week that invest the

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Speaker 2: money in rather than I mean, frankly, I think in

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Speaker 2: then we're going to waste it on building a shipyard

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Speaker 2: for submarines that will never be built.

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Speaker 1: It's seen as a panacea for employment in the economy.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people would say if we don't go

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Speaker 1: down that path, there are tens of thousands who won't

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Speaker 1: get jobs.

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Speaker 2: Well, I won't create tens of thousands of jobs. I

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Speaker 2: mean not even the government, as the most prosy optimistic,

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Speaker 2: think that there'll be tens of thousands of jobs. It

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Speaker 2: will be a few thousand jobs. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: you have to think when you're investing money in the

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Speaker 2: opportunity cost of what you're doing. You're investing the money

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Speaker 2: in building submarines or building a facility for constructing submarines,

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Speaker 2: and therefore you're not using that money for something else.

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Speaker 2: And my argument is that you will create a lot

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Speaker 2: more sustainable and long term jobs and a lot more

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Speaker 2: dynamism in South Australia if you invested in a series

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Speaker 2: of other areas and try to build on some of

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Speaker 2: South Australia's traditional strength. If you channel all your money

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Speaker 2: into one area like building submarines. Well, of course, the

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Speaker 2: people who get the money will do very well after that.

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Speaker 2: But think about the people who don't get it. It's

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Speaker 2: about all the projects that we just don't go ahead

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Speaker 2: with because we're putting their money into building submarines. When

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Speaker 2: we could get the submarines, and we do need the submarines,

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Speaker 2: we could get them much more cheaply getting them built

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Speaker 2: off shore. I mean, let me give you an example.

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Speaker 2: We don't build F thirty five fighter aircraft Australia because

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Speaker 2: it will just be too expensive. It would just be

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Speaker 2: a waste of our resources when we can buy them

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Speaker 2: much more cheaply from the US. Not with their chief,

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Speaker 2: but we buy them more cheaply from the US. Well,

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Speaker 2: it's the same with a nuclear submarine.

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Speaker 1: You said in your article. Modern South Asralia was founded

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Speaker 1: on ambition, but today it doesn't seem to have quite

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Speaker 1: the same burning desire to build a great society.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry to say that because I am a native

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Speaker 2: South Australian and my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were

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Speaker 2: all born in South Australia. So I remain very committed

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Speaker 2: to state. But I think it has lost a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of the ambition. I was reminded the

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Speaker 2: other day of Robert Barr Smith, who was an early

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century pioneer grazier in South Australia. He made a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of money and he puts some of us

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Speaker 2: as a philanthropis into the University of Adelaide because, as

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Speaker 2: he said, he wanted the University of Adelaide to be

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Speaker 2: one of the best in the world. Well, now that

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Speaker 2: a University of South Australia and the University of Adelaide

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Speaker 2: are going to merge, that's an opportunity for us to

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Speaker 2: think about, well, how can we make this merge university

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Speaker 2: the best in Australia and one of the great universities

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Speaker 2: of the world. Will will require investment, but we won't

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Speaker 2: have the investment because we're investing at all in building

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Speaker 2: facilities for the construction of nuclear submarine and we could

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Speaker 2: buy that offshore.

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Speaker 3: That's what I mean.

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Speaker 1: You look back in your article to your relationship with

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Speaker 1: Mike ran when he was Premier and you were Foreign Minister.

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Speaker 1: You work together to try to create Adelaide as a

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Speaker 1: university center, and you had some success, but that now

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Speaker 1: has a long distant memory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we did have early success. I mean the

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Speaker 2: two of us, he being the premier of the state

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Speaker 2: and me being one of the senior members of the

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Speaker 2: federal cabinet were we are obviously had power in those days,

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Speaker 2: which neither of us have anymore, and we work together

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Speaker 2: to get Carnegie Mellon established in Adelaide, and then he

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Speaker 2: got ucild University College London, which is one of the

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Speaker 2: twenty top universities in the world, to invest there as well.

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Speaker 2: So we got off to a great start actually with

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Speaker 2: this vision. But to be honest, subsequent governments haven't shown

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Speaker 2: much interest in the project at all. And so I

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Speaker 2: mean liberal and labor. It's not a question of one

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Speaker 2: versus the other. Neither of them have shown much interest

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Speaker 2: in this vision. They get bogged down in issues which

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Speaker 2: I mean are not claiming, so people shouldn't ring in

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Speaker 2: and say I'm saying these things are unimportant. They get

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Speaker 2: bogged down in issues like ramping, which is important, but

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Speaker 2: you have to have you have to have a basic

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Speaker 2: vision for the state and an ambition for the state.

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Speaker 2: Not just to make sure we have enough hospital beds.

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Speaker 2: All states have to do, all countries have to do that,

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Speaker 2: but we have to have some bigger idea in our

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Speaker 2: heads than that. And I thought creating Adelaide as the

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Speaker 2: sort of Boston of Australia as a leading educational particularly

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Speaker 2: tertiary education center, but not just Australia but Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was a great idea. But to be

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Speaker 2: honest with you, Mike Gran did that nobody else might

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Speaker 2: seems to have done since.

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Speaker 1: Another area that you allude to us the fact that

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Speaker 1: Adelaide was a trendsetter when it came to the arts.

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Speaker 1: I mean the Adelaide Festival is still the country's leading festival,

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Speaker 1: but we seem to have lost direction and focus regarding

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Speaker 1: the arts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not given the priority that they were when

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Speaker 2: I mean Steel Hall started, who had just died recently,

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Speaker 2: had started the Adelaide Festival Center project and that was

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Speaker 2: built on by his successor, Don Dunstan. So there was

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Speaker 2: great enthusiasm I think actually the festival started under Sir

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Speaker 2: Thomas Playford, but there was great enthusiasm to make Adelaide

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Speaker 2: this sort of cultural capital of Australia, which was a

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Speaker 2: fantastic idea actually, So we built the festival center and

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Speaker 2: in half the time and for much less cost than

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Speaker 2: Sydney opera hows. We got off to a great start,

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Speaker 2: but since then we have rarely fallen behind. I mean

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Speaker 2: I think other states have I mean, we have a

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Speaker 2: symphony orchestra, but every state that has a symphony orchestra

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Speaker 2: has a concert hall for at symphony orchestra and we

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Speaker 2: don't have one because that's never been a priority to

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Speaker 2: South Australia. I mean, you know, I think if you

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Speaker 2: go to the South Bank of Brisbane you will see

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Speaker 2: this huge ambition that governments there have had to turn

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Speaker 2: the South Bank into a great, a great cultural center.

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Speaker 2: And we started that way, but then we've sort of

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Speaker 2: lost direction and lost interest. And you know, politicians are

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Speaker 2: more interested in other issues. They don't seem to be

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Speaker 2: so interested in the arts anymore.

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Speaker 1: A lot of money has been spent in the state

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Speaker 1: by the premier. It's generated a lot of income. To

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Speaker 1: be fair with the AFL gather around and you know,

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Speaker 1: live golf and the two down Under bring in lots

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Speaker 1: of money. But it's all sport focused. Do you think

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Speaker 1: we should be looking at broader areas well.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't take the money away from sport. I actually

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Speaker 2: am a supporter of what the premier has done. I

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Speaker 2: mean I went to one of the gather around games

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Speaker 2: with the n Adelaide essence of game, but with the

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Speaker 2: usual result, and I think that's great, and I'm glad

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Speaker 2: he brought back via car race as well, because I

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Speaker 2: thought that was always a good thing for Adelaide to have. No,

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Speaker 2: I'm in Australia as a country that loves its sports

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Speaker 2: and South Australians included, and it does make a lot

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Speaker 2: of difference to the state if we do invest in sports.

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Speaker 2: But we don't want to lose our status as a

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Speaker 2: great art center. And I mean the Festival and actually

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Speaker 2: the Fringe are still by far the biggest and the

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Speaker 2: best in Australia, but we want to make sure we

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Speaker 2: don't lose that status. And I think, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: too little interest and enthusiasm for the arts for us

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Speaker 2: to maintain our premier position that we once had.

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Speaker 1: Tight economic times, people would say, look, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: got to spend on the realities of life, ramping the

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Speaker 1: health and medical education system. We can't widen our focus

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Speaker 1: at this time. Is that what you're saying is this

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Speaker 1: for the future, It's not for the day.

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Speaker 2: Well, my argument is that we are spending a lot

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Speaker 2: on those things, and I'm not criticizing that, but we're

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Speaker 2: also spending a huge amount on building submarine in Nablade,

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Speaker 2: and I don't see I think having the submarine is

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Speaker 2: an essentral component about defense, the parents against the research

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Speaker 2: in China and all of that. I'm familiar with all

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Speaker 2: those issues obviously, so I do think that's a priority.

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Speaker 2: But building the submarines in Adelaide is going to impose

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Speaker 2: a huge premium on the cost of building it, of

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Speaker 2: buying submarines when we could get them much more cheaply

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Speaker 2: flem offshore, and that would free up billions of billions

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Speaker 2: of dollars which we could invest in a whole range

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Speaker 2: of other things, including some of the things that I've

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Speaker 2: been talking about and the things.

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Speaker 3: That you're talking about as well.

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Speaker 2: We could do both, but instead we're investing the money

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Speaker 2: in trying to build nuclear powered submarines. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: have no experience of building US were powered submarines. So

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Speaker 2: we have to train up a workforce, we have to

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Speaker 2: find the workforce. We we have to invest in building

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Speaker 2: the infrastructure. It's huge ex that infrastructure already exists in

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Speaker 2: America and in the UK. The workforces are already there.

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Speaker 3: In Australia in the UK, although they're a bit short

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Speaker 3: of labor in both cases, but their workforces do exist.

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Speaker 3: Not far better, far better to get them to build

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Speaker 3: the submarines. Just that, just five the submarines off.

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Speaker 2: The shelf and spend some of the change. We could

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Speaker 2: save some of the change. But since spend some of

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Speaker 2: the change when you're talking to billions of dollars on

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Speaker 2: some of the sorts of things that would give us

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Speaker 2: Australia more ambitions, is it.

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Speaker 1: Too late for us to change course?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure we won't because it would be

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Speaker 2: politically top. I mean, what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Is politically toxic.

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Speaker 2: I imagine nobody would get elected. It would be the argument

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Speaker 2: that the political pundits would put. But of course it's

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Speaker 2: not too late. I mean, the sooner we change direction,

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Speaker 2: the better. Frankly, I mean, because then we'll save money.

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Speaker 2: But at the moment we're investing in land and materials

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Speaker 2: and training of people and starting to build up towards

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Speaker 2: this new facility as Osborne to build the submarines. And

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Speaker 2: then you know, the day, the day probably won't arrive,

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Speaker 2: that the day could arrive when we start actually building

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Speaker 2: the submarines, I personally don't think that will ever happen

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Speaker 2: because the cost of building the submarines, the total cost

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Speaker 2: of the project is said by the federal government to

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Speaker 2: be around three hundred and sixty billion dollars. Well, I

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Speaker 2: mean that's deployed over many years, but that is a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of just a huge, an i watering amount

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Speaker 2: of money and the time that it would take to

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Speaker 2: build these submarines. I mean, I've often said this as

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Speaker 2: I doubt very much, even with the best hope in

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Speaker 2: the world that I may have, that I would live

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Speaker 2: to see the last of the submarine built in that

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Speaker 2: leg because if they were built in that lad, I

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Speaker 2: think it would be beyond my lifetime that they would

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Speaker 2: be built, and most of us.

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Speaker 1: Alexander Dna thank you so much for your time today.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't read the article I recommended to you,

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Speaker 1: it's in the Advertiser today. A former foreign minister, Liberal

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Speaker 1: leader and diplomat Alexander Dunna a compelling article, Should we

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Speaker 1: forget the subs and find a better way to invest

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Speaker 1: in South Australia