1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Galligle people of 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: It's August two thousand and We're in a courtroom in 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 2: Thailand's capital city of Bangkok for twenty nine year old 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: Australian Holly Dean John's. Her life hangs in the balance. 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: A frenzy of media attention surrounds her, all waiting with 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: baited breath to discover the outcome of the judge's decision. 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: Just days ago, Holly was ambushed by police she tried 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: to post a calendar back home to Perth. Hidden within 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: the calendar was fifteen grams of heroin, and amount so 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: small she thought authorities wouldn't notice. Little did she know 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: they'd been monitoring her for months. In the midst of 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: the chaos surrounding her, Holly is going through brutal heroin withdrawals. 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: She's more scared than she's ever been in her life. 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: Her fate is in the hands of the judge. For 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: a crime of this nature, the death penalty is a 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: real option. Holly narrowly escapes it, but Instead, she's sent 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: off to Hell on Earth Latcho Women's Prison. She has 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 2: spent the next seven years here fighting for her life 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: and desperately trying to turn it around. I'm at Middleton 22 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: and this is head Game today, Polly Deen John's on 23 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: the day she took back control of her mind. Holly 24 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: Deen Johns, Welcome to my podcast, Headgame. It's absolutely amazing 25 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: to have you on. Quite the story. 26 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: How are you, Yeah, I'm good. Thanks for having me on. 27 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. 28 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: Now, Holly, let's get stra into things. Carl. You've had 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: quite the quite the upbringing, which then trickled into quite 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: you know, your adulthood day, shall we say so it. 31 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: Talk to me about your your upbringing you had, you 32 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: had a good upbringing in the beginning. Then everything sort 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: of went south from there. And when I say went south, 34 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: went south for quite a while. Talk to me about, 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: you know, your first first memories of home and of family. 36 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: Oh, look like you said, and you know, I could 37 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: consider myself to have had a really good, normal upbringing 38 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: whatever that means. Yeah. Look, we were just a typical 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 3: family and my mother and father both worked. Things were 40 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 3: very normal up until I was about twelve when my 41 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: parents decided to separate. Once my dad left, that's when 42 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: the whole dynamic changed. Well, everything changed, unfortunately for the worst. 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: So twelve years old, normal upbringing. You've got your friends, 44 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: you're going to school, you got the loving mother and 45 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: father at your side, which you know, again it's so important, 46 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: it's it's it's needed to feel secure, feel safe. And 47 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: you said there about your father. You know, everything changed 48 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: when your father left. So I take it that you 49 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: stayed with your mum and you and your father sort 50 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: of moved out. Is that correct? 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, my father moved back to Melbourne, which was where 52 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: he was originally from all of us, all of us 53 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: kids had the choice of if we wanted to go 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 3: with dad or stay with mum. I can't speak for 55 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: my siblings, but the reason I stayed with mum because 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 3: Dad was very strict. My mother wasn't and you know, 57 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: as a twelve year old, you know, teenager, I didn't 58 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: want the discipline that my dad, you know, I would 59 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: hand out. Yeah. I just knew that life would be easier, 60 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: you know, with mum. So that was my reason and 61 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: for staying, which you know, in hindsight, I made the 62 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: wrong stake. 63 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: And you say you made the wrong mistake. What happened? 64 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: How did things change and how quickly did they change? 65 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: Things Probably didn't change, like really really bad until I 66 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: was about fifteen. My mother met a guy we didn't 67 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 3: know at the time. We found out after that he 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: was a heroin addict and had been in prison many 69 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: times for heroin offenses. Now you've got to remember, and 70 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: you know, at this time in our life, we'd never 71 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: known people that used drugs, We'd never seen drugs. That 72 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: sort of world just wasn't in our world until my 73 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 3: mother met this guy. And yeah, you know, after a 74 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 3: few months, his real self started shining on through when 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: my mum found out that yes, he was a heroin user, 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: he had been to prison. So, you know, I say, 77 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 3: inevitably my mother started to use heroin also, Oh wow, yeah, yeah, 78 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: through being with this guy. 79 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: So you're fifteen years old and at this stage, your 80 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: mum's holding down a good job, she's providing for you 81 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: house things at home, before she meets this man. Is 82 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: it just again? Is normal? You happy? Are things just? 83 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: You're the normal teenager doing normal teenager things? No? 84 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,239 Speaker 3: Not really. So when my mum and dad were together 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: probably a couple of years before my dad left. My 86 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 3: mother ran three escort agencies from the family home, so 87 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: she had three separate landlines in the lounge room, so 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: you know, clients would ring up, make a booking. My 89 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,119 Speaker 3: mother would then back then they had beepers. The girls 90 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 3: would get a beep pull that would ring out. My 91 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: mother would give the details of the client they were 92 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: to go and see. After their job, they would come 93 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: to the house drop off the money. So I knew 94 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: about sex, and I knew exactly what was going on. 95 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 3: I knew from a very young age. But you know, 96 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 3: even yeah, even though you know that was illegal at 97 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: the time, that to me was a very normal part 98 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 3: of family life. 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: Wow. So and then you get thrust into into this 100 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: lifestyle where where your mum is now taking heroin. When 101 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: did you first realize that your mother was taking heroin? 102 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: And what was your what was your first thought process? 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't really think there was much of a 104 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: thought process, and only because you know, it became very 105 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 3: quickly in the home. My mom still at that time, 106 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: was very rich, so she always had probably in the 107 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: ounce at home all the time, so you know, having 108 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: heroin all the time wasn't a big issue. She wasn't 109 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: having to break the law to get money to buy it. 110 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: She had it all the time, it was on hand. 111 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: So she's like a functioning functioning addicts. Oh very much, 112 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: so if we can call that, yeah, right, okay? And 113 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: when did it start spiraling out of control? When did 114 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: things start to go south? 115 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was probably maybe it was probably a couple 116 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 3: of years before things really started to get out of control. Actually, 117 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: maybe about a year and a half. You know, a 118 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: few months after mum started using. You know, she actually 119 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: gave me my first snord of heroin. I'd asked her 120 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: many times before if I could try it, and she 121 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 3: was always like, no, no, no. I asked her again 122 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: one night and she said yes. So for me, unfortunately, 123 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: that was really the beginning of the end for me. 124 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: You know, you hear people say, once you try heroin once, 125 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: that's it, You're hawked. 126 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: And how old were you when you took your first 127 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: snow of heroin? And what did it do to you? 128 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: How did you feel and how did it capture your 129 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: soul so quickly? 130 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: You know, it's a really hard feeling to explain, and 131 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 3: it really is hard to describe. I felt sort of 132 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 3: that nothing else really mattered. I could sort of push 133 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 3: down on things I wanted to push down, if that 134 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 3: makes sense. 135 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: And how old are you, Holly? 136 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 3: Fifteen? Sixteen? Yeah? Yeah? 137 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: And then from then onwards addicted on it. You obviously 138 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: didn't have the money in the fight. How are you 139 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: getting your hits thereafter? 140 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 3: Ya? So whenever my mother would get large amounts of heroin, 141 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: I was the one that would package it up, cut it. 142 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: I was doing that on my own, so you know, 143 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: I would do what I had to do, and I 144 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 3: would take a bit for myself. Nobody knew I was 145 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 3: a heroin attic dan. For about two years, I kept 146 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: it hidden. Nobody had any idea. 147 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: Wow, and when was the moment that you couldn't keep 148 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 2: it hidden anymore? What happened. 149 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: My mother? My mother thought I was having a nervous 150 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: spacedown because my mood started to get quite erratic. And 151 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: she said, look, you know I had a friend living 152 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: in port Headland, and she said, look, I think I 153 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: should go up there and spend a couple of weeks 154 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: up there, get away. You know, for a while I 155 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: didn't want to go, but I did it to make 156 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: my mum happy. So I left when I had back 157 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 3: in Perth. I got on a bus after two days 158 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 3: in Port headl and I was like, this is a shithole. 159 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: I'll got me back to Perth, got under the bus, 160 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: came back and my mother rang my friend see how 161 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 3: I was going. And I knew my mum had found 162 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: out her owned mom and said yeah, you know, and 163 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: that sort of when I came clean and said, look, 164 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: you know I'm not happening enough breakdown. I'm a heroin addict. 165 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: Yeah wow, And so how's the relationship with your mum 166 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: and how do you ultimately end up in Thailand? Because 167 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: that's that's quite the segue. 168 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's quite a lead up to that. So I 169 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: was first arrested when I was twenty years old for 170 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: ten ounces of heroine. A couple that I knew had 171 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 3: bought ten ounces back from Thailand. I'd gone to pick 172 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 3: it up from them to sell for them. The deal 173 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: had absolutely nothing to do with me. I was actually 174 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 3: just doing a favor for a friend. They got arrested 175 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 3: at Perth Airport and when the police asked them whose 176 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: drugs that was, they said it was mine. So yeah, 177 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: when I I went to the hotel to pick up 178 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: the drugs. All these fed pops ran out at me 179 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: and I was arrested. I didn't find out until a 180 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 3: few days later what had gone down. There was actually 181 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: highting in the cupboard in the hotel room with a 182 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: recording device recording everything that was going on in the room. 183 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: So yeah, I ended up getting an eighteen year sentence 184 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: for that. I had to serve five years before getting 185 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: out on parole, So I got that one twenty five. 186 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 3: At that time of my arrest. My boyfriend was in 187 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: Thailand at the time. He had actually got the heroin 188 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: and gave it to them because they didn't know anyone 189 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 3: to buy heroin from and what we did. So again, 190 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: he was doing a favor for a friend. Yeah, So 191 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: when I got arrested, I got a message to him 192 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: and I said, don't come back here. My lawyer had said, Holly, 193 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: if you're doing five years, he's going to be doing fifteen. 194 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: So I said, don't come back. 195 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: What was your game plan going out to Thailand. Did 196 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: you have a game plan or was it just a 197 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 2: case of I'm free, get me the hell out of it. 198 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: That's pretty much what I was. I'm free, I can 199 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: I can fire out of the country now, Yeah, you know, 200 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 3: like I wanted to be with Stephen. I've been with 201 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: Stephens since I was sixteen years old, so that was 202 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 3: the plan to go over there stay with him. He 203 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: was still on the run, so you know, I was 204 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 3: coming back to Australia a couple of times, you to 205 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: see family and friends, and I'd fly back there. That 206 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: sort of you know, where I was living pretty much. 207 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: Was there a kind of buzz? Did you feel like 208 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 2: a kind of energy, a kind of buzz or you're 209 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: feeling alive that you were living this life of you know, 210 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: on the run, your your boyfriend's on the run, You've 211 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: just got out of prison. You know, you're going on 212 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: this new exciting journey now to Thailand. You feel like, 213 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: you know, you feel like you're escaping, that you're on 214 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: the run now from Australia, where ultimately you're not because 215 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: you're free to go. But was there ever since? Was 216 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: that anes that give you a buzz in life? Or 217 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: did that not play any any part of it at all? 218 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, You've got to remember also when you know, as 219 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: a heroin addict, especially back then, you know, Thailand was 220 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 3: the best place to live if you were a drug addict. 221 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 3: Caroline was readily available, it was very cheap, it was 222 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 3: very pure. So you know I was living a heroin 223 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: adicts dream. 224 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: Wow, you were living a heroine at extreme car That's 225 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: that's that's some statement. And so you go out there 226 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: and were you living the dream for a while? You're 227 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 2: out in Thailand, You've got your boyfriend, You're back with 228 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: your boyfriend. You know you could. It's ready available, and 229 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 2: how long until you until you start thinking? Right, I 230 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: can make a bit of money out of this. 231 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 3: Well, I was arrested over there when I was twenty nine, 232 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: so probably the probably a year leading up to that. 233 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: So when do things come crashing down? Because ultimately you 234 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: went into the hole? Right, I can provide this now 235 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: and make maybe it rather than being an addict, I 236 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: can make a living out of becoming a dealer. Ultimately, 237 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: when did that transition happen? 238 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: Okay? So it wasn't necessarily becoming a dealer. What I 239 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 3: was doing was sending heroin back to myself so that 240 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: when I came back to Australia, I had heroin to use. 241 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: So I wasn't having to go out onto the street 242 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 3: and buy shit Heroin for lots of money and it 243 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: was working. 244 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: Was it working for a while? 245 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: It was? Yeah. How what came undone was there was 246 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: another guy that we knew who was also on the 247 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: run from Australia that had been living in Thailand for 248 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 3: ten plus. Yes, he actually knew what I was doing 249 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: sending the Herald back. He did a run one time 250 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: to Darwin with a kilo of hero any suitcase. He 251 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: got arrested at the forty Darwen and when the you 252 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: know cops questioned him, he said, look, I can give 253 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: you somebody to get a reduced sentence, and he gave 254 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: them me there's. 255 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: No heroes among thieves. Eh. So it talk me through 256 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: the morning that you get arrested into. Let's not forget 257 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: you're in Thailand. You're being observed. They've got probably copious 258 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: amounts of evidence that you've done multiple runs, and taught 259 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: me through your last run and how all hell broke 260 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: loose and you ended up in Thaye prison. 261 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: So at this time Stephen had done a run to 262 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 3: Melbourne with the kilo wing his suitcase and he'd been 263 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 3: busted in Melbourne. So my plan at this time was 264 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: to wrap things up in Thailand and then move to Melbourne. 265 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: So I thought I'll be here probably for two weeks 266 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: that i'll be gone. So one night I called my friend. 267 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: I said, can you kind of pick me up. I 268 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: need to go to the post office to poast a 269 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: calendar which contained fifteen grams of heroin. So he picked 270 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: me up. We drove to the post office. I told 271 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: him to wait in the car. I've gone in posted 272 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: the calendar. I picked up my mail at the same time. 273 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: There was a letter from my dad there, which I'll 274 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: put in the glove box to read later. I've gone 275 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: back out to the car asked Bob if he was hungry. 276 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: He said yes, and I said, look, let's just go 277 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: down to Siam Square. We'll get some take a break. 278 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 3: So there was no better park or anything, so I 279 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: said to Bob, you just keep lapping the block and 280 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 3: when I've got the food, O'll come out and jumping 281 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: the car. So he's pulled up. I've jumped in the 282 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: passenger seat, and as I've gone to close the door, 283 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 3: all these guys run at the car. Now they're all 284 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: there playing closed. I thought we're getting robbed, because you 285 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: hear a foreigners getting robbed quite often, so that's what 286 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: was happening. So there was a guy tugging on my 287 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: door trying to get it open, and I'm trying to 288 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: get it closed. So we're paying tug of war with 289 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 3: the door. So while I'm trying to close it, I 290 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: except Bob Flora for it, get the fun out of here, 291 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: but there was nowhere to go. We're boxed in. So 292 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: I then realized double cops. So they pulled us out. 293 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: They put us both in separate because they drove me 294 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: straight back to the post office. The guy I did me, yeah, 295 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 3: and that's when I arrested me. 296 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: When did you realize that your world was just about 297 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 2: to descend, not into hell, but deeper than how When 298 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: did that realization. 299 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: Hit you? As soon as I took me back back 300 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: to the post office, I knew what was going on. 301 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: I knew did your heart sink? Did you what was 302 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: going on? 303 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: You on flap? I'm on gone in a really big way. 304 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: I knew that. 305 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: And this was this was a process that you've done 306 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: multiple times, you know, small amounts into into calendars, into whatever, whatever, 307 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: you know, posting them back, getting it through, and this 308 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: was just one time, you know, did you get complacent? 309 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: Did you get over confident, did you know looking black 310 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: on it? Was it just a normal process for you 311 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: and you thought it never happened to me. I never 312 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: get caught. 313 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 3: Look, people are passing me that so many times, and 314 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: the answer I have is, look, if I thought for 315 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: a second then I would have been caught doing it, 316 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have done it. 317 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: You were just like naive enough to just to go, no, 318 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: this is working. It's small amounts. I never get caught. 319 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 3: And then actually no, actually the big dais actually that's 320 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: not quite true. Every time I did something illegal, there 321 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: always was that tiny, little little you know, thing in 322 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: my brain thinking, you know what, this could go wrong. 323 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: But yeah, and you've got to remember also, you know 324 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 3: when when you're a drug addict then over takes you. 325 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: You know, I was willing to take those chances. I 326 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: was willing to do that. You know, I've been many 327 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 3: I've been told many times throughout my life I've got 328 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: more front than myers, and I have to say that 329 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 3: that's bloody true. Yeah. So look, you know, taking risks, 330 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: that was that was my life. I was a risk taker. 331 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 2: But the excitement turns upside down talked me through. You know, 332 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: you being slammed in a in a in a cell 333 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 2: and knowing did you know that you were going to 334 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: go through what you went through? You know, because obviously 335 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 2: when you're in Thailand, you know the conditions, you know, 336 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 2: you hear about, you must have heard about, you know, 337 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: the prisons, and what was going through your head when 338 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 2: they when they sent it. 339 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 3: It was funny because the guy I was arrested with, 340 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: he'd actually been in a tire prison many years before, 341 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 3: so he told me many many stories of what it 342 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: was like. And I actually thought a lot of what 343 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: he told me it was very much exaggerated. But when 344 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 3: I actually went there myself, I realized he hasn't exaggerated 345 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 3: this adult. If anything, he's underplayed it. It was the 346 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: worst experience of my whole life. Well well now it's 347 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 3: the second worst experience of my life. But oh look, 348 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: and it's going to a prison line that you can't 349 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 3: prepare for it. It's absolutely horrifying, Like it's just unimaginable. 350 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: So what happens You go into court and how many 351 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: years do they give you for this? Because obviously you 352 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 2: know you're going down what's the court system like? And 353 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: when they ultimately slammed the hammer down and how many 354 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: years did they give you? 355 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 3: So it took me three years to get sentenced. That 356 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: was because Bob was pleading not guilty. If he was 357 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: pleading guilty, we would have been sentenced straight away, so 358 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: three years I had to wait. When I did eventually 359 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: get sentenced, they gave me thirty three years. Later on 360 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: they brought it down to twenty seven years. 361 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: And for three years. Were you on maman for three years? 362 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? 363 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that in a proper prison, right, Oh, yeah, 364 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: you're not in a police cell, and you'll be there. 365 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: You know, you might as well be in prison, right, 366 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: You're you're you're in the thick of it. 367 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 3: Yeah. At the police cell, people are held there for 368 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: two weeks. I don't know why, but Bob and I 369 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 3: were held there for a month. I couldn't wait to 370 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: get to the jail, and I kept asking the cops, 371 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: you know, why are we still here? Everyone else has 372 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 3: gone after two weeks, and they just kept saying, look, 373 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 3: you know, be happy you're here, because once you're at 374 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 3: the main jail, you're going to wish you were back here. 375 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: But I actually didn't. I preferred the actual prison because 376 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: you had more freedom there At the police lock up. 377 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 3: You were just kept in the cell twenty four hours 378 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 3: a day. Wow. 379 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: So when that hammer went down and you got thirty 380 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: three years, were you ready for the for that amount 381 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: of sentence or did you think you're going to get less? 382 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 3: Well? 383 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: No, when you heard that, now you knew. 384 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 3: I knew. I knew i'd be getting. Look, I planned 385 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: on it been thirty years plus. I knew it would 386 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: be a long time. I had no idea. But my 387 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 3: younger brother and sister came for my sentencing day. I 388 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 3: didn't know they were coming, so they were both in 389 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 3: the courtroom when they gave the sentence. I was very 390 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: happy to have that sentence. My sister just started bailing 391 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: her eyes out and I said, don't be upset. I said, 392 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 3: this is a good thing. And she was like, how 393 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: is this a good thing? You just got thirty one 394 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: years and I said yeah. But see, they have what 395 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: they call a prisoner transfer treaty. So if you get 396 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 3: a life sentence, you have to serve eight years in 397 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 3: jail before you can apply to transfer back to Australia. 398 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 3: But if you have a numbered sentence, which I had, 399 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 3: having thirty one years, I had to serve four years 400 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: before I could apply to go home. So by this 401 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: time I've already done three years. So I said to 402 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 3: my sister, I can apply. In one more year, I 403 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: can come home. So you know, that was a lot 404 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: better to hear. So yeah, so in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, 405 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: I've got one more year, I can apply. I'll be 406 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 3: home six months after that. But unfortunately for me, it 407 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 3: took seven and a half years for me to get 408 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 3: home because they knocked me back. They didn't want me back. 409 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: So talk me through a daily routine in that prison, 410 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: your first day when you got to and you were there, 411 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: what was it like. Just talk me through the nitty 412 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 2: gritty of it. I'm so intrigued to know how bad 413 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: and brutal and non humane it is. 414 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 3: So the first night I was walked up to the 415 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: first floor, I was standing outside the cell, so you 416 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 3: had concrete up to about waist time and the rest 417 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: were just bath I was standing at the door looking inside. 418 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: It was just a room with wooden floorboards and at 419 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 3: the back there was a square bit of concrete and 420 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 3: there was a toilet in the ground. So I'm looking 421 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: in thinking where am I going to sleep? Like there 422 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 3: was one hundred and twenty people in there, and you 423 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 3: couldn't even see any of the four. Everyone was sitting 424 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 3: there cross legged and I was like, well, there's not 425 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: even enough room for another person. But they opened the door. 426 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 3: I pushed me in and I said, there's anyone here 427 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 3: speak English? And one girl put up her hands and 428 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,239 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, thank fuck for that. Yeah. I 429 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 3: sat down with her. She was what they call the 430 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 3: mother of the room. So she was in charge of 431 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 3: who slept where, She was in charge of giving out 432 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 3: the money coupons in the room, She was in charge 433 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 3: of who cleaned. She was the boss. So she said, okay, 434 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: we'll figure out where you're going to sleep. And I said, well, 435 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: what do you mean that there's no space? And she said, 436 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 3: leave it, leave it with me. Hang on. So she's 437 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 3: walked down the lines and whatever line had the less 438 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: people in it, that's where I went. So she told 439 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 3: everybody to roll onto their side, and then she was 440 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 3: pushing people and then you know, there was I think 441 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: it was like twenty centimeters and she said that's where 442 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 3: you'll sleep. And I said, how the fuck am I 443 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: going to sleep their hair? And she said you will. 444 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: So I had to lay on my side, like really 445 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 3: squash in. So it's that hot in there, it felt 446 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 3: like your skin was like melting together. There was two 447 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 3: tiny little fans in the ceiling, one in each Yeah, 448 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 3: and that was it. 449 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 2: Did you think that things were going to get better? 450 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: Or was there a penny drop moment where you were like, 451 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 2: what have I done? 452 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: Look? I knew that far, you know, if this is 453 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: how we sleep, I knew that things were going to 454 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: get worse. This couldn't be the worst of it. And 455 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 3: I found out what the next thing was in the 456 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 3: morning when it was time to have a sht well shower. 457 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 3: So what I was told was as soon as the 458 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: door opens, you've got to run as fast as you 459 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: can to where there's massive tanks of water. And I said, okay. 460 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: So I quickly understood why as soon as the door's open, 461 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 3: every single floor gets opened at the same time. So 462 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 3: you've got to think, Okay, there's two thousand women all 463 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 3: running to one tank of water. So it sounds like 464 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 3: it sounds like buffalo's running. It sounds like a stampede, 465 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 3: like the noise is deafening. So everybody runs to this 466 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: tank of water. And I'm actually with the boss of 467 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: the room so she can show me what's going on. 468 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 3: So the night before everyone was given all of us 469 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 3: new people were giving a tiny plastic bowl. I thought 470 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 3: that was to eat out of, but it was to 471 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: actually shout with. So everybody was around this tank. There 472 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 3: was a trustee prisoner at one end. When she started 473 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 3: the countdown, she started from ten and count and he 474 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: would count down to one. So if it was an 475 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: asshole on they'd count really fast, from ten to one. 476 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 3: If it was somebody decent, you get a slow count. 477 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 3: And this was when you could dip your your bowling 478 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: to the water, throw it over yourself to wash. Now 479 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: I've put my bowling for the first time and looked 480 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 3: in it. There was pubic here air in it, there 481 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 3: were knits, there were stones, and obviously I'm gonna throw 482 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 3: that water out and go in for another bowl. I 483 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: looked again, but then I realized there's no time. You've 484 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: got to use the water that you have. So I 485 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: just started showing. So after that day, my friend said, look, 486 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 3: you're showering wrong. What you've got to do is take 487 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 3: off your nickers in the cell before we get unlocked. 488 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 3: I'm like, okay. And in that section you could shower 489 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: without your top half on. So I'd just take my 490 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: top half off because you've been sweating all night. You 491 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 3: stink you're hot. I realized that was a really good 492 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 3: move to make because people who did have pajama tops on, 493 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 3: if they were at the front of the tank, people 494 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 3: behind them were grabbing onto the backs of their shirts 495 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 3: and pulling them away from the front so they could 496 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 3: get in. So having no clothes on from the top half, 497 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: no one could out. So yeah, you stood there until 498 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 3: you felt you'd had hit enough, and then you've let 499 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: the next person in. So the thing is with that 500 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 3: tank of water. Once that water runs out, if you 501 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: haven't had a shower, it's too bad. You then have 502 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 3: to wait for the afternoon to come. It's not that 503 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: they don't have water, it's that they refuse to refill 504 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 3: the tank. There's another tank next to that where people 505 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: can take a bucket full of water to wash their 506 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 3: clothes and a bowl of water to brush your teeth. 507 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 3: So I've put my bowling to get some water, and 508 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 3: a trustee was standing there because she guards the water. 509 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: She's grabbed a really long metal rod and I've seen 510 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 3: her about to bring it down across my wrist and 511 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 3: I've yelled out oh, and she stopped. And I've asked 512 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 3: my friend, you need to translate to her. If she 513 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: ever hits me with anything, I'll grab it off her 514 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 3: and hit her with it a lot more than she 515 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 3: could ever hit me. So tell her don't ever hit 516 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,239 Speaker 3: me because it won't in Well, she translated that, and 517 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 3: funnily enough, we ended up being really good friends later. 518 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: So you were you You knew that you couldn't you 519 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: couldn't give them an ounce or or a tiny bit 520 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 2: of mercy because you had to be ruthless in your 521 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: approach because if not, they take full advantage of you 522 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: one percent. 523 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: And I knew that from being in jail when I 524 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 3: was younger. I've always been that type of person anyway. 525 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: And I you know, I say what I think, I 526 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 3: have opinions that I say them. I will never let 527 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: anybody stand over me. I don't care who you are. 528 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that resilience was was was driven into or ingrained 529 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: into you from a young age, and you certainly wasn't 530 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: going to let it happen. So that was the more so, 531 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: what how did the food? How how did the food work? 532 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 2: And also could you get drugs. Obviously, let's not forget 533 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: your heroin addict. So are you cold turkying it? So 534 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: how's that working? As well as how's the food working? 535 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: And how is obviously I can imagine, like any prison, 536 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: there's drugs readily available if you can pay for them, right. 537 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: This was a really strange thing. I actually thought the 538 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 3: jo would be flooded with heroin, but it wasn't. In 539 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 3: the men's prison, yes, in the women's prison, no, out 540 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: of six thousand women, there was only one person that 541 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: sold heroin in there, which actually blew my mind. I 542 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. So I actually started buying heroin from her. 543 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: I used for the first ten months that I was 544 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: in there, I was using heroin. I was buying antidepressant 545 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 3: medication off an American woman in there. She was due 546 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 3: to go back to America and she needed to make money, 547 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 3: so I would buy her medication from her. So it 548 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: was like a win win for both of us, if 549 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 3: you like. Yeah, So you know, look at that time, 550 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 3: at I just wanted to feel as numb as possible. 551 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: I wanted to sort of blur my whole situation. I 552 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 3: didn't want to deal with what was happening. So, yeah, 553 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 3: look I did that, and it's really weird. You know. 554 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 3: You hear people say that you have a light bulb moment, Well, 555 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 3: that actually was true for me. I woke up one morning, 556 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: I was sitting on the filthy ground outside and I 557 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 3: was just sitting there, just looking around at my surroundings. 558 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 3: I was looking at the women, I was looking at 559 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 3: what was going on. I was looking at how people 560 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: were living. And in that moment, I was just like, 561 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 3: what the fuck are you doing, Holly? Look where you are. Wow, 562 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: Look what you've done to your whole life. You've ruined 563 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: your it's gone. You're going to be in here for 564 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 3: At that time I didn't know, but I was thinking, 565 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: you're going to be in here for thirty plus years. 566 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 3: You have absolutely ruined your life. And yeah, it was 567 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 3: in that moment and where I was like, you know what, 568 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: I'm fucking done. I've done with heroin, I'm done with everything. 569 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 3: I will never ever use drugs ever again in my 570 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 3: life and I never did. 571 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 2: So it was it was just like an epiphany that 572 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: when you were sat there and it just it just 573 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 2: submerged you, and did you did you stick to it straight? 574 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 2: It was it just like bomb, because you seem like 575 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: you're a very very strong minded individual and when you 576 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: have something gone in your mind, you implement it and 577 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 2: you stick to it. And this was one of those moments, 578 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: was it? 579 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 3: And that that's something that I'm so lucky with. And 580 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 3: you know, I've always had a very positive mindset. I've 581 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 3: always had that, thank God, because I know that's what 582 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 3: helped me get through a lot of challenging times in life. 583 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 3: I'm a very positive person. I hate negativity. I don't 584 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 3: like negative people. If people are talking negatively around me, 585 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 3: I'm like, stop, don't use those words. Change it to 586 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 3: these words. Like words are so powerful. And I know that, 587 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 3: and I try and give that gift to other people 588 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: as well, because I know how strong it is. It 589 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: was just I'd had enough FN you know, it was 590 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 3: as simple as that. 591 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 2: And so you've done that? 592 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 3: Did you? 593 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 2: Did you just separate yourself from certain people? Did you 594 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: change your approach to the way that you were you 595 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: were obviously living your life in prison? 596 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? 597 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 3: I did. Actually I didn't have to separate myself from people. 598 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: It's like you just told them. 599 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 3: Well, I say to it. You know, people knew I 600 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: was done and it's like, you know, at that time, 601 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 3: if someone had a pound of heroin in front of 602 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 3: me and said here you go, do you want to? 603 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 3: Would have said fuck off. Like I can have people 604 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 3: around me that use it's not an issue for me 605 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 3: because it's just it's just not. Once I make up 606 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 3: my mind about something, it's made, I don't go back. 607 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: I never go back, you cold turkey, How hard was that? 608 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it was hard. But this is another thing 609 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 3: with me, And I would talk to myself in my head, 610 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 3: right like I'd hung out many many times before. You know, 611 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 3: I'd hung out in jail, so I know how tough 612 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 3: it is. But going back to the positive mindset, I'd 613 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 3: just say to myself, it's all right, Holly, you're gonna 614 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: be okay, You're not gonna hang out, it's fine, you know. 615 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 3: And that's what I would do. I'd say things to 616 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 3: myself in my mind and my withdrawal it was nothing. 617 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 3: It wasn't at all what it should have been because 618 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 3: I didn't allow it to be. 619 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, the power of your your positive mindset so overruled 620 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 2: any absolutely, and I completely I understand that tenfold. I've 621 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 2: been there myself. Yeah yeah, yeah. 622 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, for me like, thank thank god I had that, 623 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 3: because if I didn't, I would have come out of 624 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 3: prison a very different person to what I did. 625 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 2: As time goes by, are you feeling better? 626 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 3: Are you? 627 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,959 Speaker 2: Are you actually looking at life through a positive lens 628 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 2: rather than a negative lens? 629 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 3: Are you? Is there? 630 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: Hope? There? You start to work on your release or 631 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: at least your transition back to Australia, to your whole 632 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 2: focus and mindset change. 633 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 3: When I first stopped using, the next thing that I 634 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 3: wanted to focus on was learning the language. Up until 635 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 3: that time, I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in wanting 636 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 3: to learn. But up until that point when I stopped using, 637 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: I was like, you know what, I'm going to be 638 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 3: here for thirty years. More than likely I have to 639 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 3: learn to speak because I don't like asking people to 640 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 3: translate for me. I hate that. I'm too independent for that. 641 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 3: So you know, I'd get books in, I'd talk to 642 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 3: people I understand. I understood a lot more than I 643 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 3: could talk for a few years, which was good. But yeah, 644 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 3: you know, a few years and I could speak quite well. 645 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 3: I could converse with people and get more point across. 646 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 3: So that was important to me to be able to 647 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 3: talk for myself. 648 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 2: When does the moment come that you realize that you're 649 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 2: going home, that you're you're being you know, transferred over 650 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: to the Australian authorities. 651 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 3: That moment came. I might be a bit off time 652 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 3: wise here. I think I was about well, I serve 653 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 3: seven and a half years in Thailand. I think I 654 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 3: got the news about two months before that I would 655 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 3: be going. So when when the embassy came and told 656 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 3: me that I'd been denied, I thought they were joking 657 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 3: and I started laughing. I said, yeah, right, okay, nowhere serious. 658 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 3: So that was probably another very dark moment for me. So, 659 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 3: you know, waiting a few more years for the decision 660 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 3: to be overturned, you know. Yeah, obviously I was extremely 661 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 3: happy because I knew i'd be going home. I could 662 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 3: see my friends, my family, I'd be I'd be in 663 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 3: a normal prison, you know, with normal people. Yeah, so 664 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 3: I was very happy. But like I said to the embassy, 665 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 3: I said, look, I'm not going to believe this is 666 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 3: actually true until I'm on the plane. I said, because 667 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 3: I've had many many times where I've been told, you know, 668 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 3: great things and believed it. For it to be taken 669 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 3: away from me, I said, So, yeah, I'm happy, I says, 670 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 3: but I don't. I don't believe it until I'm actually gone. 671 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 3: And that's that's how it was. And it's a good 672 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 3: thing I did. It's a good thing I did go 673 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 3: when I did as well, and because my mental state 674 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 3: it wasn't good. So yeah, look, getting home was amazing. 675 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,399 Speaker 3: One of the happiest stage of my life. Pretty much 676 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 3: that first day back, I hardly slept that night because 677 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 3: I knew I would be seeing Stephen that day and 678 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 3: my sister. So I can't even describe to you like 679 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 3: that feeling I've been able to sit down across from them, 680 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 3: be able to touch them and have a two hour visit 681 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 3: like that was mind blowing. You know. You never had 682 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 3: contact visits, and the visits you had in the normal 683 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 3: visit room there were ten minutes. If you got like 684 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 3: an embassy room visit, you know, that was an one 685 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 3: sometimes too, but very different. You know, in Australia, I 686 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 3: could use the telephone, I could call whoever I wanted, 687 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 3: I could watch TV, I could watch whatever I wanted. 688 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 3: I could have a shower when I wanted. You know, 689 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 3: all these things were just mind blowing, you know, my 690 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 3: first meal it was actually hot. I hadn't eaten a 691 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 3: hot meal for seven and a half years. I hadn't 692 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 3: felt hot water on my skin in seven and a 693 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 3: half years. You know, there were nights when I couldn't 694 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 3: even use more pillow. It just didn't feel right. I'd 695 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 3: sleep without a pillow. Just little things to getting used 696 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,479 Speaker 3: to it again. Do you know things that people really 697 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 3: take for granted? And I don't anymore. I don't take 698 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 3: the littlest things for granted anymore because I've had. 699 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 2: Nothing absolutely And like I said, you know, having that 700 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 2: epiphany Satin that time prison is, you know, it was 701 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 2: evident there and through that thought process that you were 702 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 2: just going to take full advantage of your life. Anything 703 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 2: that was put on put on the plate for you. Well, Holly, 704 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 2: it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Honestly, 705 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: your book is will be a great tool for anyone struggling. 706 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 2: And you know, we're so full of so much potential 707 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 2: and if we can just look at life through through 708 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 2: a positive lens and you know, and get rid of 709 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 2: the temptation and the addictions, then life is there to 710 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 2: be had. You are the prime example of that of 711 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 2: hitting you know the line of life and death and 712 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 2: being who you are now. It is possible. That's what 713 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 2: I love about. This is possible, Holly. I wish you 714 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 2: all the best of the future. Thank you so much 715 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 2: and listen long. May your success continued. 716 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank yous so much for having me Anne. 717 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 2: To hear more of Holly's powerful story. Her book is 718 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 2: out now, Holly's Hell, Seven Years in a Tie Prison. 719 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of head Game. If 720 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 2: you enjoyed it, please leave me a review. I'm at Middleton. 721 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 2: Catch you in the next episode.