WEBVTT - Triads, murder and hunting terrorists: Dr Dave Gawel Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective sy a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.640 Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Terrorism is 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.400 defined as the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.720 against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Now that's 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.560 a fairly bland definition, but there's something we all have 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.080 to live with because, as we have now become aware, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.759 none of us are immune to the effects of terrorism, 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.560 and it can strike in the most sudden and devastating fashion. 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.840 It is a role of multiple law enforcement agencies in 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.000 this country and across the world to identify and prevent 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.919 acts of terrorism. Most of their work is done behind 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.560 the scenes. I think it's about time on eye catch 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:21.760 kills we have a look at terrorism and get a 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.399 better understanding of what causes it and how we can 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.960 identify it and prevent it where possible, to educate us 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.440 all about terrorism. I can't think of a better person 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.640 than doctor Dave Gore. Dave is a former colleague and 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.360 friend of mine. We worked in tactical policing together and 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.320 major crime, but then he kind of just disappeared from 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.280 that world and embedded himself into the world of counter terrorism. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.480 He's considered one of the most experienced counter terrorism investigators 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.040 in this country. He only recently left the New South 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.280 Wales Police and his post police career. He used his 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.960 vast experience to write a book titled Principles of the 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.480 counter Terrorism Process. Now I've read that book. I've learnt 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.000 so much from the book and today we're very fortunate 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.400 to have Dave in the studio to share his knowledge. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.760 Dave Gore, it's good to see you, Gary. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:09.880 It's been a while. Have you been. 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.560 Oh, I've made okay, the world has changed somewhat, But yeah, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.480 I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And there is as we 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.800 were talking the other day, there is life outside the cops, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:20.720 isn't it. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.359 Look it's an interesting position. You spend thirty three five 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.120 years of your life dedicated to a career path and 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.079 then when it ends, it ends in a hurry. Yeah, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.680 you've got to find where do you sit? Who's your 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.000 new identity? So it's been an interesting journey. 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.080 Yeah, Well we're sort of part of a tribe and 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.079 you lose that identity, and that was your identity Dave Gore. Oh, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.120 he's a cop, Gary Jubel, and he's a cop, and 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.280 you step away from that. But I'm happy to say 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.400 and that, as you'll found out, there is a world 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.320 outside the police, and you realize it is fairly small 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.720 and narrowing the world that we operated. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.760 Yeah, and look, you're in when you're in the game, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.600 it's all about policing. And our colleagues are still in 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.000 the game. That's what they do. They chase, they live 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.119 and breathe it. But rest assured when you get out 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.720 there is a larger world and there's a lot more 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.560 fulfillment and satisfaction in other aspects outside of policing that 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:13.960 I didn't think would actually occur, but it's there. 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.000 And you had a double headed household with policing because 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.040 your wife. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.960 My good wife, which you've had the opportunity to work with, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.080 and she's still in the police. So whilst I'm out, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.959 I'm still within the police family, so to speak, sort 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.880 of as a de facto in law. So I still 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.120 sort of get my little dose of policing every now 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:35.440 and again. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.320 She doesn't tell you, you just don't understand. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.920 It can be quite challenging that have there's conversations because 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.240 I've changed perspective a little bit, which can be the 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.480 source of amusement in the household. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.520 Well, you look relaxed, Dave. And people used to describe 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.200 yourself as pretty intense in police and I know I 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.880 cop that label as well as intense, but you always 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:58.840 you had the cranky face on the fair bit you 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.000 look a little bit more relaxed. 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.960 Yeah, Look it's you take stock. You know you reflect 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.680 and look, we're both pretty we're both pretty driven individuals. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.480 I know that you know you're well regarded in your 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.560 field and in my field. You know, there was a 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.279 lot of there's a lot of expectation. Yeah, and that burden. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:21.720 you're pretty switched on most of the time. 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.279 Well, I look at it this way. Sometimes you just 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.800 haven't got time for the niceties or the hello or 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.080 how you going. Sometimes it's we need this done, we 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.600 need this done now. And that that was policing the 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:32.400 sharp end, isn't it. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.159 Yeah, And look your hope throughout your career that you 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.039 didn't burn too many bridges and that your colleagues realized 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.640 that you weren't being you were in being blunt, you 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.159 weren't being rude. You were just time poor and you 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.880 were under the pump. But now that we're away from 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:49.839 that and we can step back and look back in, 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.200 it's nice to look back in and actually take a 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.599 breath and enjoy, enjoy the ride, so to speak, smell 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.000 the flowers, enjoy the day, and actually take some time 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:01.320 to take stock of what's occurred. 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.159 Yeah, very much so. So your your book, congratulations on it. 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.640 I read it over the weekend and I think I'm 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.839 very much more enlightened about the world of counter terrorism investigation. 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.279 What prompted the idea of writing a book after you left? 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.520 Well, so when I left the police. I didn't live 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:18.480 on my terms. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:24.599 You know, that's unusual, so I had to So when. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.080 I left, you know, I feel a little bit unfulfilled, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:35.320 and I had I spent twenty years of research, policy writing, developing, training, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.760 operational engagements, and there was a great deal of knowledge. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:40.640 And when I left the police, I thought, at some 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.880 point someone will come and want to download what I 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.239 knew so that it can be used for the next 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.040 generation and we can build on the information that we've 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.120 already got. But after a couple of months, I realized 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.080 that no one was coming, and look, there was a 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.160 lot of information that I thought, actually, it does help, 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.320 and it helps the process. We spent a lot of 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.880 time researching it, so I didn't want to lose it. 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.960 So when I looked around the marketplace of books, and 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.000 I looked particularly at the private sector who are now 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.839 partners in the ct Journey, the counter Terrorism JOm, and 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.280 there's no books for them. There's no reference books, there 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.320 was no guides, there was nothing to give them support 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.640 and instruction on how they should do business. So they 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.839 kind of motivated me to get my thoughts down and 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.040 to put something that can be used for the wider 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.880 communities to attention. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.240 Well, we're going to dissect the book and the book 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.839 so people are aware of it. The principles of the 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.719 counter terrorism process, a guide for new guard of counter 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.720 terrorism professionals. And I've got to say, if you want 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.200 to up skill or have an understanding of what counter 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.039 terrorism is about, it's very much in that book. And 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.000 I can see the effort that's gone into it too, Dave, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.080 So congratulations, it's not an easy book to write. You're 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.520 not just sitting there rattling off old war stories. It's 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:57.880 very deep. Yeah. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.719 So there's a lot of research in that of academic 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.440 research that you know with and the beauty about being 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.520 in the police is that there is a lot of 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:11.080 academic research in the wider world of academia about terrorism, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.680 but being in the police, being close to the cold face, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.720 we've got the best sources of data. We've got the 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.080 real data. So our research was more accurate. And it's 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.880 that accurate research that I wanted then to communicate with 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.520 everyone so that we can move forward as opposed to 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:31.640 basing research on assumed facts or research based on information gaps. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:33.400 So I've tried to get it down as best we could. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.640 Okay, well, we've got a little bit ahead of ourselves. 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.400 We've got to wind it back a little bit. So 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.240 you didn't just wake up one day and decide you're 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.040 account the terrorism expert. You joined the police. What prompted 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:45.600 you to join the police? 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.040 So join the police. So before I joined the police, 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.440 I'm not a tall man, and back in the day 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:53.880 when I wanted to join the police, there was a 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.320 height restriction. There's a height and weight restriction, and you 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.760 had have certain test expansions and I didn't meet those 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.600 term was never going to So I went and joined 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.440 the bank. I started studying accountcy and was doing a 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:11.160 management program within Westpac. And then one lunchtime I'm sitting 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.080 down reading the paper and my lunch break and the 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:21.400 then Commissioner, Jack Avery removed the hype restrictions and mate restrictions. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.520 So I wandered down to Maryland's police station and the 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.920 old desk sergeant was there and I said, excuse me, sergeant, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.000 could I have an application? He grunted at me, through 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:32.520 the application at me, and I walked out. 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:33.760 Nothing like customers. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.600 Customer service was fantastic. And then three months later I'm 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:38.360 down at the academy. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:39.719 Okay, what year was that? 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:41.760 What year the eighty seven? 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.000 Okay, I was there just a little a little bit beforehand. 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.640 So your career in uniform first up. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.440 Yeah, so you know, this is the day back where 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.440 we did three months straight. We were trainees in the 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.400 police academy, so you employed as a police employer employee, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.199 and so we did three months in tents. Then we 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.640 had twelve months probation before you got confirmed. My probation 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.800 and period in uniform was at Flemington with the L 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:15.320 thirty two division, which was Flemington, Auburn, Lincoln. You know, again, etchy, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:20.679 typical uniform career. We're working at the markets, traffic domestics, 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.000 and domestics is clearly a current issue and they were 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.280 a current issue back then. So times haven't changed. 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.120 It's sad saying things haven't changed. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.120 So look, and then I joined the police and I 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.800 was under the I suppose my plan was to do 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.920 a couple of years in uniform study law, have a 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.040 go at going to through the prosecutors and pursuing that path. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.319 But in our part of our training program is that 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.200 you've got to do two weeks in each of the 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.920 units with that highway licensing, all those things and I 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.600 got to spend two weeks in the detective's office and 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.280 my mentor there was a detective charge my name of 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:03.520 Henry Krnaky, a fantastic detective, and I was there and 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.560 as soon as I walked in the office, my feet 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:07.920 didn't hit the ground. In two weeks, I think we 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.800 had four murders. We were chasing a group of kids, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:17.880 three kids for a grievous bodily harm attack that they 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.040 inflicted on another a street kid with a sledgehammer in 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.000 a squad house in Flemington. So we spent three days 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:32.439 chasing these kids. Bronson, Blessington, Jamison and that crew were 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.400 then chasing them all throughout Sydney trying to find them. 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.560 And then we get a call one night Henry rings 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.640 Mountain says that we've got our crooks at Penrith. So 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.360 we drive out there. On the way out to the 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.080 driver discussing what the interview process will be and what 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.240 we'll interview them. We get to Penrith police station and 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.800 Henry speaks to his brother, Dick Cornacky. They have a 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.000 rather animated conversation. He turns around in his heel and 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.920 comes back and he says, we're out here they've just 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.880 fested up to murdering a young girl in a paddock, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.120 and we won't get access to them for a while, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.480 so we left. And that unfortunate young girl was Jenaine Balding, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.120 so terrible. It was a terrible crime, but it just 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.760 showed I actually got to see how the process worked, 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.319 fell in love with criminal investigation, fell in love with 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.720 being a detective, and decided to make that my career. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.480 I understand that the way you described it them just 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.240 thinking through. It's that. And I don't like to say 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.520 it's a thrill of the chase because it sounds like 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.720 a game, and we very much know it's not a game. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.959 But that hunting. You are actually out there hunting the. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.040 We were hunting them. We were trying to get them, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.600 and the reason to get them was to stop them 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.440 because they were on a crime spree. We can incarcerate them, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.800 let things cool down, stop crime occurring. And you could 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:50.679 see that practically occur. The more you got into investigations, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.000 you saw that the majority of crime was always been 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.760 committed by the minority of criminals. If you got rid 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.240 of that minority, you reduced crime. And that's a very 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.480 simple equation, and it stayed pretty constant throughout. So I 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.520 saw that equation, that. 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:06.920 Correlation what you could achieve, what. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.600 You could achieve, and you actually could reduce crimes significantly 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:11.960 by taking players out. 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.480 Okay, so it sounds like it was a glob that 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.440 fitted very well in plain clothes. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.640 So yeah. So I did my training Flemington Detectives and 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.160 at the time we were new South Wales Police in 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.400 the wake of the Wood Royal Commission was regionalized and 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.440 Flemington was the home of the Southwest Major Crime Squad. 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:31.480 So I got to interact a lot with the guys 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.280 from Southwest and they would involve us on jobs, giving 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.040 us great experience and exposure. I did my training there 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:43.439 with Flemington, and what I had done, I continued my 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.040 accountcy studies. So I just finished my accountancy course and 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.400 an opportunity came for me to go to the fraud Squad. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.360 So I went to the fraud Squad for a couple 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.199 of years and worked there with some very very good 0:12:54.240 --> 0:13:00.280 operators Terry Jamison, Roam Martin, Georgie McTaggart, Arthur Keatsiannas you 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.160 know Arthur who went on becoming one of the commanders 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.240 at State Crime and after a couple of years there 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.280 an opportunity arose at Northwest Major Crime and that's where 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:10.400 our past started to join. 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.400 Yeah, well that's when we cross paths in the crime squads, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.839 but also the tactical policing when we're in the State 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.040 Protection Support Unit, which is tactical police us through that. 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.600 Yeah, So in the day, so I went to Northwest 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.520 and did a range of the squads there, the Kiddies 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.760 Squad which is a child protection squad, property squad, and 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:30.760 then I moved into these stick ups. Armed hold up 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.120 one of the requirements there because of the nature of 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.680 the beast. We're dealing with dangerous criminals, armed defenders, you know, 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.559 on a daily basis. It was a real clever strategy 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.760 to get those operators trained in tactical policing, the Tactical 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.280 Support Team or the State Protection Support Unit. And it's 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.240 through that training that you become proficient at weapons, your 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.719 your tactical knowledge of things, what is a danger and 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.760 what isn't. You get a really good understanding of how 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.439 to do things a lot more safely and efficiently. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.520 I felt that it helped us as detectives, even though 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.040 our role as detectives was investigation wasn't tactical, but when 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.960 we had the tactical skills, you could help plan, earn 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.240 effect and the rest or be involved in the arrest 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:17.360 and high risk offenders. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.520 And that's probably what a lot of listeners don't understand that. 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.920 As the detective, you prepare all the documents, so you're 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.920 doing the planning documents, you're doing all the appreciations. So 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.520 you've got to have an understanding of what their capabilities are. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.120 Whether that be a surveillance team, a team of texts 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.880 that's going to put devices in, or a tactical team. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.120 You need to know what their capabilities are, what their 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.800 limitations are, how they like to work. If they're a 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.400 happy team, they get your good results. So again it's 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:44.760 great exposure, I think for us both. 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.560 And it was a lot of fun too. Some of 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.200 those training days were they were intense, but they were fun. 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:51.880 And that firing range. 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.400 Yeah, look, you know, lo Sheennanigan is a lot of fun, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.520 but a lot of team development, team bonding and building 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.960 that team. You know that team camaraderie and look you 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.680 twenty thirty years later, we're still talking about it and 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.240 there's a smile on your face. You smile and mind, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:05.960 so it works. 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.160 It was fun. And look, let's shout out to the 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.640 tactical police, because often they were misconstrued as you know, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.320 the knuckle draggers or whatever, the tough guys in the 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.320 black overalls. But the amount of training, the pressure was 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:19.600 on when you had the job, wasn't it. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.880 And aren't they when you get down you speak with 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.040 them and they talk through their plans. Aren't they articulate 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 and incredibly detailed and professional? They know the game? 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.760 Dave. I'm glad you say that because people often think 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.920 detectives are briefing. The best briefings I've been to are 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.640 the ones that tactical police are running. And it's succinct 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:39.760 because you can't make a mistake. If you make a mistake, 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.960 someone literally might die. And it was good fun when 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.240 you got a call. When we'd get called out, I 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:46.960 thought it was best time in policing because you had 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.920 the excitement of criminal investigation. But then you get a 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.000 phone call and some bad, bad guy's got to be arrested, 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:54.440 and you jump out the back of a van. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.400 And see what the beauty of You know, as a detective, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.920 you've got left to clean up the mess. Yes, as 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.520 a tactical operator. You walked away and you didn't have 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.040 to do the brief. So it was it was it 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:05.880 was the best of both line. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.000 I don't know about you, but when my phone would ring, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.400 I'd be thinking, I hope it's not a homicide. I 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.160 hope it's tactical. Tactical, you go out the adrenaline rush, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.520 do your job and walk away in the paperwork. 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.120 Fantastic, great day, great day. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.960 It was good. Okay, So what other squads did you 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.400 work in inj major crime? 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.800 So so I did the kiddies property and we worked 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.600 with you know, in the wake. This is prior to 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.480 the well. This is as the Royal Commission was going on. 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.480 It was and Northwest was decimated as a result of 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.760 the raw Commission. Then I went to the stick ups. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.720 Then close Small did something interesting that he amalgamated the 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.720 regions again. So we went from four regions to crime 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.800 agencies and I was part of the Serious and Violent 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.120 Violent Offenders unit and there I stuck with stick ups 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.640 and went to Bagnara and Bagnara was the operation that 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.800 looked at the time counter jumpers. This is where he 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.560 had a lot of young offenders. Bank robberies were still 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.680 the rage and before they had screens putting up, the 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.960 crooks would enter the banks on mass, jump the counter, 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.760 overwhelm the staff, take the money and run. Incredibly busy 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:22.480 times and interesting dynamic working with you know that cohort, 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.640 which was a completely different mindset to the traditional stick 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.080 up guys we were used to working with. 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.880 Yeah, No, it was interesting times. And when we were 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.760 brought together as crime agencies. I liken it to imagine 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.560 four high schools that are all brought together because there 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.600 was a bit of argie bargie, wasn't it. I was 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:39.439 from north region. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.200 You were even today I refer to you as north 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.320 your north. I was Northwest. There's southwest, the south. Yeah, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.600 somewhere we didn't meet in the middle. There was the clicks. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.160 Look how Clive was able to bring that and Clive 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.359 is a very brilliant man. Yeah, and the way he 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.879 could bring that together given the environment that we've just 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:56.800 walked out of that New South Wales at that time 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.240 was considered one of the most corrupt services in the country. 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.199 He was able to bring us together and set up 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:08.120 a really effective agency that stood the test of time. 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.560 Yeah, full credit to Clive. He was a leader in 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.320 the truest sense, wasn't he When he was there? There 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.280 was no mucking round. You knew where you stood. But 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.040 you're quite right moldling all that together. It could have 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.560 gone either way, and I forgot how bad it was 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.600 at the time. We're all shamed by the fact that 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.600 we're major crime detectives and all that corruption horrendous exposed, 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.240 and even the way your own organization looked at you. Yeah, uniform, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.600 you're a detective, you must be crupted. It was a hard, 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:34.800 hard slog. 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.840 And I remember I went to a course at the 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.520 Goldman Academy and I bounced a couple of the new 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.600 recruits and their first question was are you a detective, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.840 And in a suit, I said yes, I am. And 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.639 their response was, we've been instructed not to talk to 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.159 you because you're corrupt and a bad influence. Now I 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.720 found that this is my own organization. These are the 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.560 people that are training the next generation, are instructing our 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.199 people not to talk to their own people because of, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.840 you know, the stink or the smell of corruption. It 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:06.480 was disappointing. 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.040 It was disappointing, but there was there wasn't a lot 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.000 of us that had the it was still around long 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.520 time after that that had the experience before it, the 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.119 Royal Commission, during it and after it, and stayed in 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:19.920 major crime. And I think it set you up very 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.400 well for the further police career because you understood where 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.000 things can go wrong with the corruption. And I think 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.879 the people like yourself, like myself, that had that experience 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.520 been there before, during and after it bous well for 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:33.000 our careers. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.359 It did, and it gave us ability to look at 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.719 consequence and consequence management and perception. And we didn't care 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.600 too much about perception were young young men rawn around, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.639 but we started to understand the power of perception, what 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.400 things look like to those outside, and how we had 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.400 to manage that better. So it was a great learning curve. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.159 As tragic as it was, as traumatic as it was, 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:55.760 it really it put us in a good space. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.520